So I've been playing legacy for awhile now, but none of my decks have used wasteland. Every once in awhile I'll borrow someone's deck to change things up and sometimes it has wasteland in it. I'm curious as to what every here thinks is the best time to waste someone.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
As soon as you can as long as your not behind on board state or you have a clock in play. Also if the land poses a threat Karakas, Rishadan Port, Cephalid Coliseum, etc..
You definitely want to make a logical decision when and why your using it, like cutting them off of T4 Jace mana, or you have Aether Vial in play already, If they have a T1 Delver of Secrets you probably don't want to wast your turn Wastelanding them.
Now if the tables are turned and you have a Delver in play T1 and your opponent plays land go then T2 is a perfect time to Wasteland them.
There is no correct answer. You have to make a decision: 1 or taking a way a land from a opponent. If you need that mana right now, then no. If you can manage without it, maybe. If you really have no need for it, then just go ahead and use it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Playing Wasteland at all depends on your deck and using it depends on your opponent.
If they struggle on lands, wasting mana will provide you an advantage, especially if they run some more expensive cards (anything 3+ mana is expensive in that regards, as a top deck alone, wont help you).
Wasting a player with another source of mana, especially deathrite Shaman is pretty bad, unless they keep the risky 1 land hand and are unable to operate with Deathrite (which is plain stupid).
Combo decks that rely on lands either play basics to protect themself, or its questionable if its worth to waste them if you can do something else that provides a faster clock (especially turn 1 wasteland is pretty bad, as you have no information if they have many lands left over or not).
Some pretty obvisious things are to never wasteland some islands in response to spells, as a Daze will hit you hard.
Wasteland a Dryad Arbor is possible sometimes, especially if they fetch in a stupid way (like in upkeep, end of turn or something), if they fetch in mainphase you cant wasteland againt Dread return or Natural Order.
Wasteland "yourself" is an option just that you get Threshold, or fodder for Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, Lavamancer and all that.
Its impossible to set a turn, the timing of wasteland depends on a ton of factors.
It depends on the situation,what deck your playing, and the deck your facing. Too many people just drop a Waste and use it without thinking. Color screw is a fine choice. So is tempo killing. I remember back years ago when I finished my set of wastes, I would just drop waste and nuke a non basic. Now I'm more intelligent on my target. It is an art form almost.
Or it can be as simple as on the play mountain, Lackey, go. Then waste duals on turn 2 and 3 while dumping gobs on the table.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Stasis players like me are like those old gray haired convicts that have been locked up for 40 years straight. You can take us in a fight but you know you'll lose a testicle in the process of winning.
Decks I play
Legacy
Dredge 0
DredgeGBRU
AffinityXRUB
GoblinsRWB
10 land StompyG
BurnR
DreadstillURW
BelcherGR
Death and Taxes W
Enchantress GWR
BUILDING
Legacy Lands GBRUW
I'll never tell you the flavor text of Teferi's Imp!!
As soon as you can as long as your not behind on board state or you have a clock in play. Also if the land poses a threat Karakas, Rishadan Port, Cephalid Coliseum, etc..
You definitely want to make a logical decision when and why your using it, like cutting them off of T4 Jace mana, or you have Aether Vial in play already, If they have a T1 Delver of Secrets you probably don't want to wast your turn Wastelanding them.
Now if the tables are turned and you have a Delver in play T1 and your opponent plays land go then T2 is a perfect time to Wasteland them.
Pretty much this
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Depends on the deck, both your deck and your opponent's.
A deck like Jund for example is looking to get to three or four mana to deploy some of its best threats, and once it has pressure on board it starts to heavily deny resources with Liliana, Hymn, Wasteland, and versatile removal spells. It might not want to Wasteland you early because its own mana development is so important when it wants to cast Liliana and follow it up with Bloodbraid Elf. This is why you often see Jund run three Wastelands; it isn't exactly looking to luck into free wins with early Wastelands, but instead uses it to hit a key resource or make a tempo play when it has board position established. Jund is also among the most color intensive decks in modern Legacy. It has a wide variety of color hungry cards like Hymn, Liliana, Abrupt Decay, and Bloodbraid Elf, and Punishing Fire lists are forced to run three or four Grove of the Burnwillows making black mana a little harder to come by at times.
RUG, and other heavy tempo decks that employ Wasteland in addition to Stifle are aggressively trying to deny you mana in the early game. They want to keep you off balance just long enough for their Delver, Goyf, or Mongoose to either finish you off directly, or get you in range of burn spells. Because modern tempo decks can operate completely off of two mana they can afford to Waste you early, and often, something Jund can't effectively do.
Goblins and Death & Taxes also have some unique play with Wasteland because they both run Wasteland alongside Rishadan Port and Aether Vial. D&T also runs Thalia (and maybe Judge's Familiar), and a white splash in Goblins is somewhat common (and my preferred build) which gives them access to Thalia as well. This gives these decks a very robust mana denial strategy. These are normally mana hungry decks (especially Goblins which tops out its curve at five for Siege Gang Commander), but Aether Vial allows them to more aggressively Wasteland because Vial generates so much mana advantage. Without Vial they might have to be hesitant before using a Wasteland because they don't want to stunt their own growth, but Vial lets them get aggressive. In addition, Rishadan Port allows them to really stunt the mana development of any deck. You can't just fetch basics and avoid Wasteland because Rishadan Port can tag basics.
I don't know if you have ever sat against the table of an active Vial bringing in Thalia, while Port and Wasteland attack your lands directly but it's a nightmare for almost every deck in Legacy right now.
Loam is another card that changes how you play Wasteland. You can completely shut down the three colored decks that are common in Legacy by destroying lands every turn with Loam.
Mana dorks (Deathrite Shaman being the posterboy right now) can also change things. If you have a mana dork on the table you can afford to Wasteland because the mana dork makes up for the land lost on your end. On the flip side, the opponent having mana dorks make them more resilient to Wasteland so it might not be worth it on your end to use one, unless you also have a Bolt or whatever to remove their dork.
It's also matchup specific. For instance, let's say I'm playing Goblins against Miracles. Let's say I'm keeping a Goblin Ringleader in hand so I can refuel if they hit Terminus, so that's not a big concern. However if they land a Moat, an Elspeth, or topdeck an Entreat the Angles they have good shot at stabilizing the board and winning. Knowing that all of their best outs require WW to cast, I'm going to be sure to Wasteland any Tundra, and Rishadan Port any Plains (which also has the bonus of turning off Supreme Verdict which is a little better in this matchup than Terminus). Sometimes you can't keep them off of their colors, but maybe its a specific cmc that you are keeping them off of. Let's say you keep them off of seven mana when the game goes long; this play turns off an EoT Entreat kill (making five angles at the end of your turn, untapping and flying in for 20).
Sometimes you might have the chance to completely turn off a key color. Maybe in the RUG mirror for instance you attack their Tropical Islands (and Stifle their attempts at fetching Tropical Island) and you keep them off of green mana for a turn or two. Your opponent might have a Goyf or Mongoose that gets stranded in hand for a couple of turns, and you ride that tempo swing to victory. Same can be said for a lot of color hungry decks. Sometimes you just keep Jund off of BB and the Liliana that would have won them the game just sits in their hand.
2nd turn of your opponent during upkeep or combat step.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
I see no answer I wish to vote on. I find there are a lot of factors including which deck you are up against, what your own hand allows for, did my opponent miss a land drop, etc. ideally I want as much benefit for myself from using it and that doesn't relate to turn X so much.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
More or less: Follow what's suggested, but play with it more. There's a lot of things you can only do right once you get a feel for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from EX33396948 »
If your deck is 60 cards then you're playing with the best possible odds. 61? Probably won't alter your odds too much but we all know that 96% pure meth won't cut it next to Heisenberg's 99%.
not to add to the broken record, but the key to well played wasteland is understanding your opponents deck and goals, and realizing what you can or cannot do with 1 less mana on the table. Sure, it sucks to delay my own Jace, but if it means that I get to stop you from reanimating that critter because you kept a 1 land hand, i am all for it
It completely depends on what deck your playing, what your opponents deck is, if you opponent mulligan, and if your on the play. The best wasteland is one that just steals the game. Regardless On the play I almost never lead on a wasteland. Your opponents will just play or fetch basics its best left as a surprise.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
It's entirely dependent in the board state and your read in what the opponent has, but the fundamental answer is "when their land is more valuable than yours."
Wasteland also loses value depending on how much support it has. RUG is probably the best Wasteland deck ever built, since there's tremendous synergy between Wasteland, Stifle, and soft counters. And the deck doesn't really want more than 3 lands in play. Death and Taxes is another example, as Waste compliments Rishadan Port and Thalia. But if you're playing Zoo, Wasteland is just another card.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
The question is inherently flawed by the Poll options.
#1 are you playing wasteland in a defensive or aggressive role?
#2 What is the purpose of wasteland in your deck? Is it to play a tempo game, or is it to remove lands that can disrupt your game plan like Karakas, Maze of Ith?
#3 Are you playing counter magic? The late game wasteland to take out the left over mana so your opponent can't pay for spell pierce can be relevant
#4 Is your opponent playing counter magic? Removing his untapped blue at the end of your turn can take away that line of play.
Really there are so many permutations to this broad question that this question loses value and meaning.
in response to them cracking a fetch.
because you have yet to surgical extraction that land with your mill deck
i would do it as soon as possible against RDW
maybe t3 against a slower deck.
the slower the deck, the later you want to use wasteland(unless an opposing land poses a threat via Karkras, as Jake 556 already mentioned;))
reason being slower decks tend to leave you alone/protect themselves via moat type cards. then on t4, they do all this crazy stuff and kill you and you can't do a thing about it. wasteland gives you an extra turn to win against these types of decks.
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
You definitely want to make a logical decision when and why your using it, like cutting them off of T4 Jace mana, or you have Aether Vial in play already, If they have a T1 Delver of Secrets you probably don't want to wast your turn Wastelanding them.
Now if the tables are turned and you have a Delver in play T1 and your opponent plays land go then T2 is a perfect time to Wasteland them.
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
Awesome sig by the one and only DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios
If they struggle on lands, wasting mana will provide you an advantage, especially if they run some more expensive cards (anything 3+ mana is expensive in that regards, as a top deck alone, wont help you).
Wasting a player with another source of mana, especially deathrite Shaman is pretty bad, unless they keep the risky 1 land hand and are unable to operate with Deathrite (which is plain stupid).
Combo decks that rely on lands either play basics to protect themself, or its questionable if its worth to waste them if you can do something else that provides a faster clock (especially turn 1 wasteland is pretty bad, as you have no information if they have many lands left over or not).
Some pretty obvisious things are to never wasteland some islands in response to spells, as a Daze will hit you hard.
Wasteland a Dryad Arbor is possible sometimes, especially if they fetch in a stupid way (like in upkeep, end of turn or something), if they fetch in mainphase you cant wasteland againt Dread return or Natural Order.
Wasteland "yourself" is an option just that you get Threshold, or fodder for Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, Lavamancer and all that.
Its impossible to set a turn, the timing of wasteland depends on a ton of factors.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Or it can be as simple as on the play mountain, Lackey, go. Then waste duals on turn 2 and 3 while dumping gobs on the table.
Decks I play
Legacy
Dredge 0
DredgeGBRU
AffinityXRUB
GoblinsRWB
10 land StompyG
BurnR
DreadstillURW
BelcherGR
Death and Taxes W
Enchantress GWR
BUILDING
Legacy Lands GBRUW
I'll never tell you the flavor text of Teferi's Imp!!
Pretty much this
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
A deck like Jund for example is looking to get to three or four mana to deploy some of its best threats, and once it has pressure on board it starts to heavily deny resources with Liliana, Hymn, Wasteland, and versatile removal spells. It might not want to Wasteland you early because its own mana development is so important when it wants to cast Liliana and follow it up with Bloodbraid Elf. This is why you often see Jund run three Wastelands; it isn't exactly looking to luck into free wins with early Wastelands, but instead uses it to hit a key resource or make a tempo play when it has board position established. Jund is also among the most color intensive decks in modern Legacy. It has a wide variety of color hungry cards like Hymn, Liliana, Abrupt Decay, and Bloodbraid Elf, and Punishing Fire lists are forced to run three or four Grove of the Burnwillows making black mana a little harder to come by at times.
RUG, and other heavy tempo decks that employ Wasteland in addition to Stifle are aggressively trying to deny you mana in the early game. They want to keep you off balance just long enough for their Delver, Goyf, or Mongoose to either finish you off directly, or get you in range of burn spells. Because modern tempo decks can operate completely off of two mana they can afford to Waste you early, and often, something Jund can't effectively do.
Goblins and Death & Taxes also have some unique play with Wasteland because they both run Wasteland alongside Rishadan Port and Aether Vial. D&T also runs Thalia (and maybe Judge's Familiar), and a white splash in Goblins is somewhat common (and my preferred build) which gives them access to Thalia as well. This gives these decks a very robust mana denial strategy. These are normally mana hungry decks (especially Goblins which tops out its curve at five for Siege Gang Commander), but Aether Vial allows them to more aggressively Wasteland because Vial generates so much mana advantage. Without Vial they might have to be hesitant before using a Wasteland because they don't want to stunt their own growth, but Vial lets them get aggressive. In addition, Rishadan Port allows them to really stunt the mana development of any deck. You can't just fetch basics and avoid Wasteland because Rishadan Port can tag basics.
I don't know if you have ever sat against the table of an active Vial bringing in Thalia, while Port and Wasteland attack your lands directly but it's a nightmare for almost every deck in Legacy right now.
Loam is another card that changes how you play Wasteland. You can completely shut down the three colored decks that are common in Legacy by destroying lands every turn with Loam.
Mana dorks (Deathrite Shaman being the posterboy right now) can also change things. If you have a mana dork on the table you can afford to Wasteland because the mana dork makes up for the land lost on your end. On the flip side, the opponent having mana dorks make them more resilient to Wasteland so it might not be worth it on your end to use one, unless you also have a Bolt or whatever to remove their dork.
It's also matchup specific. For instance, let's say I'm playing Goblins against Miracles. Let's say I'm keeping a Goblin Ringleader in hand so I can refuel if they hit Terminus, so that's not a big concern. However if they land a Moat, an Elspeth, or topdeck an Entreat the Angles they have good shot at stabilizing the board and winning. Knowing that all of their best outs require WW to cast, I'm going to be sure to Wasteland any Tundra, and Rishadan Port any Plains (which also has the bonus of turning off Supreme Verdict which is a little better in this matchup than Terminus). Sometimes you can't keep them off of their colors, but maybe its a specific cmc that you are keeping them off of. Let's say you keep them off of seven mana when the game goes long; this play turns off an EoT Entreat kill (making five angles at the end of your turn, untapping and flying in for 20).
Sometimes you might have the chance to completely turn off a key color. Maybe in the RUG mirror for instance you attack their Tropical Islands (and Stifle their attempts at fetching Tropical Island) and you keep them off of green mana for a turn or two. Your opponent might have a Goyf or Mongoose that gets stranded in hand for a couple of turns, and you ride that tempo swing to victory. Same can be said for a lot of color hungry decks. Sometimes you just keep Jund off of BB and the Liliana that would have won them the game just sits in their hand.
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
This nailed it. LOL.
Seriously, the factors that go into when to play your Wasteland are staggering. It all comes down to board and game state.
Flow chart. I like that.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
sig by DarkNightCavalier
Avatar by perv90210.
Currently Running
Cryffyl
Wasteland also loses value depending on how much support it has. RUG is probably the best Wasteland deck ever built, since there's tremendous synergy between Wasteland, Stifle, and soft counters. And the deck doesn't really want more than 3 lands in play. Death and Taxes is another example, as Waste compliments Rishadan Port and Thalia. But if you're playing Zoo, Wasteland is just another card.
#1 are you playing wasteland in a defensive or aggressive role?
#2 What is the purpose of wasteland in your deck? Is it to play a tempo game, or is it to remove lands that can disrupt your game plan like Karakas, Maze of Ith?
#3 Are you playing counter magic? The late game wasteland to take out the left over mana so your opponent can't pay for spell pierce can be relevant
#4 Is your opponent playing counter magic? Removing his untapped blue at the end of your turn can take away that line of play.
Really there are so many permutations to this broad question that this question loses value and meaning.
because you have yet to surgical extraction that land with your mill deck
i would do it as soon as possible against RDW
maybe t3 against a slower deck.
the slower the deck, the later you want to use wasteland(unless an opposing land poses a threat via Karkras, as Jake 556 already mentioned;))
reason being slower decks tend to leave you alone/protect themselves via moat type cards. then on t4, they do all this crazy stuff and kill you and you can't do a thing about it. wasteland gives you an extra turn to win against these types of decks.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)