I have composited a list of the usage of cards based off of the top 8 of SCG Legacy Tournaments. Starting with the October 2nd Legacy Open. Which was the first tournament post Mental Misstep banning. The following statistics were made on 2/20 after the Charlotte open. I did all the calculations by hand. So I'm sure there are some instances where I missed imputing a sideboard Jace into my statistics. If someone tells me a place where I made a mistake I will fix it.
Number Ran: 284
Average number per top 8: 20.29
Lowest Number: 12 (1/8 Atlanta)
Peak Number: 28 (10/24 Baltimore, 2/19 Charlotte)
Average Number per deck: 2.54
Number Ran: 121
Average number per top 8: 8.65
Average Number per deck: 1.08
Peak Number: 18 (10/2 Indy)
Lowest Number: 3 (10/9 Nashville, 12/11 Charlotte Open, 1/8 Atlanta)
Number Ran: 100
Average number per top 8: 7.14
Average Number per deck: .89
Peak Number: 13 (10/30 Kansas City)
Lowest Number: 3 (11/6 Las Vegas, 1/16 Los Angeles, 1/22 Washington DC)
Number Ran: 104
Average number per top 8: 7.42
Average Number per deck: .93
Peak Number: 16 (10/30 Kansas City)
Lowest Number: 0 (2/19 Charlotte)
Number Ran: 24
Average number per top 8: 1.71
Average Number per deck: .21
Peak Number: 4 (multiple)
Lowest Number: 0 (multiple)
Number Ran: 126
Average number per top 8: 9.00
Average Number per deck: 1.125
Peak Number: 16 (2/12 Cincinnati)
Lowest Number: 0 (10/2 Indy, 1/22 Washington)
Number Ran: 147
Average number per top 8: 10.50
Average Number per deck: 1.31
Peak Number: 24 (10/24 Baltimore)
Lowest Number: 4 (10/2 Indy, 2/19 Charlotte)
Number Ran: 83
Average number per top 8: 5.93
Average Number per deck: .74
Peak Number: 11 (10/24 Baltimore)
Lowest Number: 0 (10/2 Indy, 10/9 Nashville)
Number Ran: 402
Average number per top 8: 28.71
Average Number per deck: 3.59
Peak Number: 39 (2/5 Richmond Open)
Lowest Number: 18 (2/12 Cincinnati)
Number Ran: 496
Average number per top 8: 35.42
Average Number per deck: 4.43
Peak Number: 43 (10/30 Kansas City)
Lowest Number: 30 (12/11 Charlotte Open)
Number Ran: 740
Average number per top 8: 52.86
Average Number per deck: 6.61
Peak Number: 62 (10/2 Indy, 2/19 Charlotte)
Lowest Number: 45 (2/5 Richmond Open)
Number Ran: 232
Average number per top 8: 16.57
Average Number per deck: 2.07
Peak Number: 24 (1/8 Atlanta)
Lowest Number: 3 (2/19 Charlotte)
14 tourneys
112 top 8 slots
Found a mistake in Dan Musers 12/11 Charlotte Open deck. Tarmogoyf numbers +4
Poor Dark Confidant. Hard to believe that a creature as powerful as bob is seeing such low numbers in Legacy.
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Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy:UR Sneak and Show IUBG Team America IX Metalworker MUD Modern:UBR Blue Jund IWBX Eldrazi Processors IX Affinity IWRG Nacatl Burn IGR Tron IUBR Grishoalbrand
Don't get me wrong, Brainstorm is awesome. But I don't think I would even want to play12 Brainstorms in one deck
Very nice job, interesting info. A few criticisms though:
"average # / deck running" would likely be more useful than "average number per deck"
The list feels kinda biased towards control. Some cards I'd like to see in the future would be Ad Nausium/Tendrils, KotR, Lightning Bolt, and Green Sun's Zenith
Why is Ponder here?
A few interesting trends here:
If we assume everyone plays 0 or 4 Wastelands, than every other deck plays it.
I find the Tarmogoyf numbers suspicious, especially since they are identical to te Jace numbers.
Assuming you play 3-4 Jace, we are averaging 2-3 Jace decks per T8, and the same number of SFM decks. Yea, Jace is so OP that he's played mainly in one deck.
RUg Delver does not look very popular, averaging only 1 deck per T8.
Sadly, we only appear to have information about roughly half the decks represented here.
Average #/Deck running would be a good statistic. I'll probably include it in my next round of updates.
The list is slanted towards control. But lets be honest. SCG top 8's tend to be slanted more towards agrocontrol builds anyways.
I will definitely be including GSZ, Bolt, and knight in the next round. I feel listing Ad Nausium/Tendrils only serves to tell us how often someone is playing storm. I was trying to identify more broad cards. I'll probably include LED now that it's seeing play in Red Dredge.
@Ponder I was interested to see how many decks wanted more than 4 brainstorms.
I was suprised by the goyf numbers also. But it's not too suprising if you think about it. The green decks in the meta seem to be Maverick (GW and GWr) Bant Blade, Delver RuG, and Elves. Besides an occasional one of as a GSZ target those decks either elect to run more synergistic cards (elves) or have replaced him with Knight. I think RUG is the only major deck that runs it. I guess BUG also. But that deck top 8's about as often as high tide does.
The more I think about it. I'll probably change the Avg # per deck to.
Number of decks running and Average Number per deck that runs. Avg number per deck scews data against new decks.
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That's the remarkable thing about life. It's never so bad that it can't get worse
Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
Ah, LED would make more sense than a card only played in Storm.
So those goyf numbers are correct? I had assumed you miscopied them, but if not... Interesting implications.
I agree that SCG T8s are biased towards control, but if you broadly break up Control into Delver decks and Jace/SFM decks, that only covers 4 or 5 of the T8 slots on average (also supported by the average of 20 Brainstorms/T8).
So those goyf numbers are correct? I had assumed you miscopied them, but if not... Interesting implications.
I haven't gone back to recheck my work. So it is possible I missed a few/copied it down wrong. But I don't think the number is too far away from what I posted.
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I knew Goyf was losing ground in Legacy, but it's nice to see some actual analytical proof that he is on the decline. Not surprised that Stoneforge Mystic is more popular than Goyf, but rather surprised that Snapcaster Mage is more popular than Goyf and Stoneforge both. And that Delver is almost at (current) Goyf level of popularity.
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I was driven from this once-great site by abusive mods and admins, who create rules out of thin air to punish people for breaking them (meaning the rule does not exist under forum rules) and selectively enforce the rules that are written on the forum rules. I am currently lurking while deleting 6 years and 2 months of posting history. I will return when ExpiredRascals, Teia Rabishu and Blinking Spirit are no longer in power.
I knew Goyf was losing ground in Legacy, but it's nice to see some actual analytical proof that he is on the decline. Not surprised that Stoneforge Mystic is more popular than Goyf, but rather surprised that Snapcaster Mage is more popular than Goyf and Stoneforge both. And that Delver is almost at (current) Goyf level of popularity.
I'm actually not very surprised by that fact. goyf i played by RUg, which also plays both Delver and Snapcaster, but the two of them also played in UR Delver, and sometimes StoneBlade or Bant.
I've been looking over the Dual land data to get a better idea of how each one shows up. I found a couple mistakes. I came up with 503 duals played. The Dredge deck from the Charlotte Open on 12/9/11 had 4 Underground Seas in it. After that, I cannot really say where the other 3 came from. The low number is wrong as well. There were only 25 duals in the top 8's of both Charlotte 2/19 and Richmond 2/5. I agree with the max at Kansas City.
Here is a capture of the spreadsheet I put together. I also hand counted, so I may have missed some as well.
Average # of Duals per Top 8: 35.929
Average # of Duals per Deck: 4.491
Average # of Duals per Deck (excluding decks w/out Duals): 5.295
17 out of the 112 Top 8 decks did not use Duals (average of ~1.21 per Top 8)
At least 1 Tropical Island was in each Top 8
Badlands only had 1 copy Top 8 once
Average # of a given Dual in a Top 8:
Volcanic Island: 6.643
Underground Sea: 6.5
Tundra: 5.714
Tropical Island: 8.214
Taiga: 1.714
Scrubland: 0.571
Savannah: 4.071
Plateau: 0.357
Bayou: 2.071
Badlands: 0.071
Tropical Island had 24 more copies in the various Top 8's. Maybe Underground Sea isn't the go to dual land anymore? It was on par with Volcanic Island's frequency.
I'll look into the fetches when I get a chance. See post #17 for data on fetches.
I got around to doing the fetchlands. I got a total of 743, once again, off by 3. Indy also had 62 fetches. The Charlotte Invitational only had 45 fetches as well.
Average # of Fetches per Top 8: 53.071
Average # of Fetches per Deck: 6.634
Average # of Fetches per Deck (excluding decks w/out Fetches): 7.582
14 out of the 112 Top 8 decks didn't use Fetches (average of 1 per Top 8)
Misty Rainforest was the most used Fetchland by almost a factor of 2 (1.912)
There is 1.48 Fetch for each Dual (743/503)
There is 1.32 Zendikar Fetch for each Onslaught Fetch (423/320)
Average # of a given Fetch per Top 8:
Wooded Foothills: 2.571
Windswept Heath: 6.071
Polluted Delta: 6.643
Flooded Strand: 6.571
Bloodstained Mire: 1
Verdant Catacombs: 3.714
Scalding Tarn: 8.143
Misty Rainforest: 15.571
Marsh Flats: 1.071
Arid Mesa: 1.714
Time to get rid of my Confidants while they still hold value
Confidants were only 12-15$ each prior to the modern announcement at which point it shot up to the 40$+ mark....so yeah get rid of them if you feel Modern isn't going to last ;p
I got around to doing the fetchlands. I got a total of 743, once again, off by 3. Indy also had 62 fetches. The Charlotte Invitational only had 45 fetches as well.
Average # of Fetches per Top 8: 53.071
Average # of Fetches per Deck: 6.634
Average # of Fetches per Deck (excluding decks w/out Fetches): 7.582
14 out of the 112 Top 8 decks didn't use Fetches (average of 1 per Top 8)
Misty Rainforest was the most used Fetchland by almost a factor of 2 (1.912)
There is 1.48 Fetch for each Dual (743/503)
There is 1.32 Zendikar Fetch for each Onslaught Fetch (423/320)
Average # of a given Fetch per Top 8:
Wooded Foothills: 2.571
Windswept Heath: 6.071
Polluted Delta: 6.643
Flooded Strand: 6.571
Bloodstained Mire: 1
Verdant Catacombs: 3.714
Scalding Tarn: 8.143
Misty Rainforest: 15.571
Marsh Flats: 1.071
Arid Mesa: 1.714
I guess Mistys and Tarns are popular.
Makes sense. They grab all the same important duals (blue) as Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta. And they cost 1/3rd of the price.
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Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
I'll enjoy watching all the whiners eat crow monday.
Confidants were only 12-15$ each prior to the modern announcement at which point it shot up to the 40$+ mark....so yeah get rid of them if you feel Modern isn't going to last ;p
I think Wizards would do everything in their power to make it last.
The only problem with modern is that the best deck is clearly Jund and by a large margin. While Jund happens to be $1200 which enters Legacy territory.
Bob is a great card, but I'm not really surprised by his decline. He is great, but I feel like black doesn't offer that much besides him these days outside of course in combo situations. Sinkhole sees no play these days and hymn is pretty down there too, why go in black when there is better removal options elsewhere and plenty of CA with snapcaster to make up for losing bob.
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Currently playing
Standard:
R/W/B Midrange
Modern:
Looking into U/W/R Tempo
Legacy:
Canadian Threshold (RUG Tempo)
EDH:
Horde of Notions (5 Color ETB abuse)
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Abolish the Reserve List!
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvgKvEi5U6oudDZyZ25aZ1FpRkxvU3hXQlJpYzlqN2c
Number Ran: 284
Average number per top 8: 20.29
Lowest Number: 12 (1/8 Atlanta)
Peak Number: 28 (10/24 Baltimore, 2/19 Charlotte)
Average Number per deck: 2.54
Number Ran: 121
Average number per top 8: 8.65
Average Number per deck: 1.08
Peak Number: 18 (10/2 Indy)
Lowest Number: 3 (10/9 Nashville, 12/11 Charlotte Open, 1/8 Atlanta)
Number Ran: 100
Average number per top 8: 7.14
Average Number per deck: .89
Peak Number: 13 (10/30 Kansas City)
Lowest Number: 3 (11/6 Las Vegas, 1/16 Los Angeles, 1/22 Washington DC)
Number Ran: 104
Average number per top 8: 7.42
Average Number per deck: .93
Peak Number: 16 (10/30 Kansas City)
Lowest Number: 0 (2/19 Charlotte)
Number Ran: 24
Average number per top 8: 1.71
Average Number per deck: .21
Peak Number: 4 (multiple)
Lowest Number: 0 (multiple)
Number Ran: 126
Average number per top 8: 9.00
Average Number per deck: 1.125
Peak Number: 16 (2/12 Cincinnati)
Lowest Number: 0 (10/2 Indy, 1/22 Washington)
Number Ran: 147
Average number per top 8: 10.50
Average Number per deck: 1.31
Peak Number: 24 (10/24 Baltimore)
Lowest Number: 4 (10/2 Indy, 2/19 Charlotte)
Number Ran: 83
Average number per top 8: 5.93
Average Number per deck: .74
Peak Number: 11 (10/24 Baltimore)
Lowest Number: 0 (10/2 Indy, 10/9 Nashville)
Number Ran: 402
Average number per top 8: 28.71
Average Number per deck: 3.59
Peak Number: 39 (2/5 Richmond Open)
Lowest Number: 18 (2/12 Cincinnati)
Number Ran: 496
Average number per top 8: 35.42
Average Number per deck: 4.43
Peak Number: 43 (10/30 Kansas City)
Lowest Number: 30 (12/11 Charlotte Open)
Number Ran: 740
Average number per top 8: 52.86
Average Number per deck: 6.61
Peak Number: 62 (10/2 Indy, 2/19 Charlotte)
Lowest Number: 45 (2/5 Richmond Open)
Number Ran: 232
Average number per top 8: 16.57
Average Number per deck: 2.07
Peak Number: 24 (1/8 Atlanta)
Lowest Number: 3 (2/19 Charlotte)
14 tourneys
112 top 8 slots
Found a mistake in Dan Musers 12/11 Charlotte Open deck. Tarmogoyf numbers +4
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
lot of people still using goyfs
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
I think there's an error in the Brainstorm numbers, as it lists the average number per deck is 12. I know it's good, but that's still a bit high.
EDIT: (Looks like the "average" got switched with the "low" somehow.)
Very nice job, interesting info. A few criticisms though:
"average # / deck running" would likely be more useful than "average number per deck"
The list feels kinda biased towards control. Some cards I'd like to see in the future would be Ad Nausium/Tendrils, KotR, Lightning Bolt, and Green Sun's Zenith
Why is Ponder here?
A few interesting trends here:
If we assume everyone plays 0 or 4 Wastelands, than every other deck plays it.
I find the Tarmogoyf numbers suspicious, especially since they are identical to te Jace numbers.
Assuming you play 3-4 Jace, we are averaging 2-3 Jace decks per T8, and the same number of SFM decks. Yea, Jace is so OP that he's played mainly in one deck.
RUg Delver does not look very popular, averaging only 1 deck per T8.
Sadly, we only appear to have information about roughly half the decks represented here.
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Average #/Deck running would be a good statistic. I'll probably include it in my next round of updates.
The list is slanted towards control. But lets be honest. SCG top 8's tend to be slanted more towards agrocontrol builds anyways.
I will definitely be including GSZ, Bolt, and knight in the next round. I feel listing Ad Nausium/Tendrils only serves to tell us how often someone is playing storm. I was trying to identify more broad cards. I'll probably include LED now that it's seeing play in Red Dredge.
@Ponder I was interested to see how many decks wanted more than 4 brainstorms.
I was suprised by the goyf numbers also. But it's not too suprising if you think about it. The green decks in the meta seem to be Maverick (GW and GWr) Bant Blade, Delver RuG, and Elves. Besides an occasional one of as a GSZ target those decks either elect to run more synergistic cards (elves) or have replaced him with Knight. I think RUG is the only major deck that runs it. I guess BUG also. But that deck top 8's about as often as high tide does.
The more I think about it. I'll probably change the Avg # per deck to.
Number of decks running and Average Number per deck that runs. Avg number per deck scews data against new decks.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
So those goyf numbers are correct? I had assumed you miscopied them, but if not... Interesting implications.
I agree that SCG T8s are biased towards control, but if you broadly break up Control into Delver decks and Jace/SFM decks, that only covers 4 or 5 of the T8 slots on average (also supported by the average of 20 Brainstorms/T8).
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If I were playing ANT or TES I would.
Nice thread, Bob needs some love
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
UBG Reanimator
RUB Delver
R Burn
UR Delver
UBW Tin Fins
UBGR ANT
I haven't gone back to recheck my work. So it is possible I missed a few/copied it down wrong. But I don't think the number is too far away from what I posted.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
I'm actually not very surprised by that fact. goyf i played by RUg, which also plays both Delver and Snapcaster, but the two of them also played in UR Delver, and sometimes StoneBlade or Bant.
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Here is a capture of the spreadsheet I put together. I also hand counted, so I may have missed some as well.
Average # of Duals per Deck: 4.491
Average # of Duals per Deck (excluding decks w/out Duals): 5.295
17 out of the 112 Top 8 decks did not use Duals (average of ~1.21 per Top 8)
At least 1 Tropical Island was in each Top 8
Badlands only had 1 copy Top 8 once
Average # of a given Dual in a Top 8:
Volcanic Island: 6.643
Underground Sea: 6.5
Tundra: 5.714
Tropical Island: 8.214
Taiga: 1.714
Scrubland: 0.571
Savannah: 4.071
Plateau: 0.357
Bayou: 2.071
Badlands: 0.071
I'll look into the fetches when I get a chance.See post #17 for data on fetches.You are forgetting about Modern. Play in Legacy isn't the only thing that determines price.
Average # of Fetches per Deck: 6.634
Average # of Fetches per Deck (excluding decks w/out Fetches): 7.582
14 out of the 112 Top 8 decks didn't use Fetches (average of 1 per Top 8)
Misty Rainforest was the most used Fetchland by almost a factor of 2 (1.912)
There is 1.48 Fetch for each Dual (743/503)
There is 1.32 Zendikar Fetch for each Onslaught Fetch (423/320)
Average # of a given Fetch per Top 8:
Wooded Foothills: 2.571
Windswept Heath: 6.071
Polluted Delta: 6.643
Flooded Strand: 6.571
Bloodstained Mire: 1
Verdant Catacombs: 3.714
Scalding Tarn: 8.143
Misty Rainforest: 15.571
Marsh Flats: 1.071
Arid Mesa: 1.714
I guess Mistys and Tarns are popular.
Confidants were only 12-15$ each prior to the modern announcement at which point it shot up to the 40$+ mark....so yeah get rid of them if you feel Modern isn't going to last ;p
Makes sense. They grab all the same important duals (blue) as Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta. And they cost 1/3rd of the price.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
When you do an update next, can you do Knight of the Reliquary for comparison?
Who's eating crow?
I think Wizards would do everything in their power to make it last.
The only problem with modern is that the best deck is clearly Jund and by a large margin. While Jund happens to be $1200 which enters Legacy territory.
Cheers
Currently playing
R/W/B Midrange
Modern:
Looking into U/W/R Tempo
Legacy:
Canadian Threshold (RUG Tempo)
EDH:
Horde of Notions (5 Color ETB abuse)
And My Lovely Powered Cube
Abolish the Reserve List!