Put all that B&R list discussion in here. I don't want to see anymore of those threads posted in general, or anywhere else. Yes, this is a mod request.
i agree on monolith, there's not much left in the format to abuse it with. maybe power artifact combo will be crazy but k-grip is popular and infinite colorless mana still needs something to be dumped into.
Hermit druid would certainly be interesting. Unsure on whether ichorid would include it. The deck would probably look like a dredge version of belcher
Why? Dredge could play Magus of the Bazaar it has the same abilites as Bazaar of Baghdad and nobody is playing with the Magus, I actually picked up a playset of magus and find it hard to cast a 2cc spell in a dredge deck.
Earthcraft, this banning has never made any sense even when DCI wanted to restricted Earthcraft to fix type 1.5... its was based on a 2 card combo that didnt even warp the format.
Channel, I still dont see a 2 turn win, unless you are talking about a lucky 'untouched' hand. I think people are afraid it's going to warp the format and repeat the "flash ban cry" although and unlike vintage, burn is very strong in legacy and would place anyplayer playing using channel at sudden death risk.
Actually, Necro became "supergood" once bolt and chain was removed form extended. It seems that people has forget that sligh and burn kept necro in check.
Why? Dredge could play Magus of the Bazaar it has the same abilites as Bazaar of Baghdad and nobody is playing with the Magus, I actually picked up a playset of magus and find it hard to cast a 2cc spell in a dredge deck.
Unbanning Hermit Druid would be bad because it would enable one to turn both Belcher and Dredge into amazing power houses, and I don't want to see that happening. Unbanning Bazaar of Baghdad would give Dredge an engine that it really doesn't need.
Earthcraft, this banning has never made any sense even when DCI wanted to restricted Earthcraft to fix type 1.5... its was based on a 2 card combo that didnt even warp the format.
The only thing that really stops this combo is Ghost Quarter and I have seen people give me really long lectures about how bad that card is.
Channel, I still dont see a 2 turn win, unless you are talking about a lucky 'untouched' hand. I think people are afraid it's going to warp the format and repeat the "flash ban cry" although and unlike vintage, burn is very strong in legacy and would place anyplayer playing using channel at sudden death risk.
Are you actually advocating the unbanning of a card that would enable the hard casting of Emrakul or any of the other Eldrazi Titans on turn 3 (or even earlier given the right mana base)?
Are you actually advocating the unbanning of a card that would enable the hard casting of Emrakul or any of the other Eldrazi Titans on turn 3 (or even earlier given the right mana base)?
No, but it's clunky and easily hated. Worth testing if you ask me, i'm not saying it won't be totally borked but i don't think it will completely destroy the format when it comes off. people thought unbanning Dreamhalls was going to be huge, and it was for about 3 months before people realized that the unbanning of entomb was much more relevant.
i still find it funny that SDT was banned in extended for the same reason land tax was banned in legacy. it just drew the games out to ridiculous lengths. if it wasnt for ANT im pretty sure SDT would be banned in legacy.
but i think a good chunk of the banned list could be allowed legal because if people are going to say that its too powerful. look at what we have now, ANT, dredge, Belcher, TES, doomsday tendrils, and other combo decks... all of these decks can win turn 1-2 easily and usually by turn 3 they win. if there are cards that need to be banned it should be LED and SDT. cards that should be unbanned should be: mind twist, mana drain, black vise, earthcraft, frantic search, grim monolith, hermit druid, tinker, and yawgmoth's bargain.
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currently playing:
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
cards that should be unbanned should be: mind twist, mana drain, black vise, earthcraft, frantic search, grim monolith, hermit druid, tinker, and yawgmoth's bargain.
Mindtwist, black vise, earthcraft, frantic search, grim monolith, hermit druid all seem reasonable to take off the ban list, however, Mana drain seems way too powerful for Legacy since it can give a deck a huge tempo advantage. Tinker is obvious, it is both a strong tutor and a mana accelerant since it brings the permanent straight into play, not to mention their is no restricted list so decks would be able to play 4 copies of tinker. As for yawgmoth's bargain, it is one of the strongest draw engines to ever see print, it would give combo decks all of the gas they need to go off for very little investment.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
muodoka ~ lol, Mana Drain is the reason why DCI finally fixed Vintage and Legacy.
Feaor ~ Black Vise should be banned because the format does require draws per turn.
DalkonCledwin ~ funny Hermit Druid is unrestricted in Vintage and I dont know of a belcher or a dredge build. I still dont see how Hermit Druid helps Belcher, I do see it helping non-dredge ichorid but that's the extent. It may bring out a new deck and triple its going price... but hardly a reason to be banned.
I'm not sure about you argument with earthcraft...
As for Channel, I dont see it as a problem in legacy but I dont see it getting unbanned because players will cry louder then flash... I dont think DCI wants that bs so they are not going to unbanned it.
Black vise should remain banned forever because any deck can play it and guess what its as much an auto counter for control decks as aether vial is. Vise, if it resolves, kills the control player with ease over a matter of turns while they hope to draw an answer soon enough so they can stabilize. Vise shouldn't be unbanned as well because it lightning bolts a players dome for 3 on the play and maybe deals 2 more damage the turn after if the player getting vise'd says land go. Sooooooooooo busted.
Yawg's bargain is ad nauseam. On steroids. Seriously, paying 1 life to draw a card is about as broken as it gets so you can draw 10 cards, mystical tutor, then instantly draw the card you mystical tutored for. Seems insanely broken. Necropotence MIGHT be able to get unbanned but that's because you draw the cards at EoT and have to discard but that's still a problem because sui black would get a huge boost being able to have 8 cards in hand at the beginning of their turn.
Mana drain? Really? Lets say that zoo is on the draw vs. landstill. Landstill says land go. Zoo goes land dude and passes. Landstill says land go. Zoo goes land swings plays a dude, then plays a burn spell which gets drained. Turn 3 landstill casts ***/humility. GG's zoo. Landstill has stabilized and proceeds to win.
Or drain combo. Seems nasty when mana drain connects with something 3cmc or more, especially FoW or NO.
DalkonCledwin ~ funny Hermit Druid is unrestricted in Vintage and I dont know of a belcher or a dredge build. I still dont see how Hermit Druid helps Belcher, I do see it helping non-dredge ichorid but that's the extent. It may bring out a new deck and triple its going price... but hardly a reason to be banned.
I'm not sure about you argument with earthcraft...
As for Channel, I dont see it as a problem in legacy but I dont see it getting unbanned because players will cry louder then flash... I dont think DCI wants that bs so they are not going to unbanned it.
The entire point of the Goblin Charbelcher deck is to work by having as few lands main decked as possible. Hermit Druid would help Goblin Charbelcher by allowing it to run 1 or 2 basic lands, then play the Druid, Fetch the Land, go off the same turn with the Charbelcher for possibly the max damage that is possible with that deck. Basically the Druid would add consistency to the deck that is currently not present in the deck without adding a color.
I can't really see it being played in Dredge as much as in Charbelcher but it is possible as it would enable them to basically dump all of their bridges into the grave really fast.
The reason you don't see them in Vintage is because they are potentially too slow for Vintage when compared to other cards that are infinitely faster in doing what the decks needs done. For example Vintage Dredge would much rather be running Bazaar of Baghdad than it would the Druid.
As far as Earthcraft goes. The primary combo with that card is Squirrel Nest. Due to the Errata on Earthcraft, the Squirrel Nest MUST be enchanting a basic land. Can you name any land destruction that is at instant speed other than Ghost Quarter within Legacy that destroys basic lands? If not then I have made my point quite well.
As far as Channel goes, there are several potential spells that could be used along side of Channel. However only THREE that are actually worth using due to the fact that they can go in a mono-green deck. Those being the three Eldrazi Titans. Of those, only Emrakul is actually really bomby enough to make it worth losing 15 life in the off chance that you can swing with her after you drop her to a channel. Mainly because she gives you another turn as soon as cast and basically wipes your opponents entire field upon attacking, as well as having inherent protection for herself.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
This guy is dangerous to unban. I've been testing a couple of builds with it and it is scary fast, and pretty consistent. It goes off on turn 1 or 2 almost every time, and I've never experienced a win any slower than turn 3 unless I intentionally slow-rolled it.
Straight-forward, balls-to-the wall combo. You go for the old school win with Sutured Ghoul removing some big fat, in this case Lord of Extinction. Alternately, you can win with zombie tokens and a Dread Returned FKZ, but this proved to be easily thwarted by something as simple as Cursecatcher removing all of your bridge tokens, while the other strategy seemed weak to point-removal, so I devised an alternate build with more disruption, but without the Bridge From Below combo, allowing for a more focused game-plan.
The extra discard goes the distance when it comes to things like Ravenous Trap or Faerie Macabre, allowing you to clear the path for your combo to go off without a hitch. You also patch your vulnerability against Swords to Plowshares by gaining access to Cabal Therapy before you reanimate Reveillark. I'm not certain if either build is strictly better than the other, as different metas would bring different challenges, but both definitely have their merits.
The upside of build 2 is that you don't get Bridges clogging your hand, however if you happen to draw 3 Narcomoebas you can't go off. In testing this hasn't been a problem since you aim to win on turn 1 or 2 anyway, but I can see it being a potential weakness.
Anyway, for those who don't see what's going on, the way the deck works is this: Dump your entire library into your graveyard with Hermit Druid's ability, since you have no basic lands to make the milling stop. Narcomoebas enter the battlefield. Sac Three Narcomoebas/Two Narcomoebas and Hermit Druid to cast Dread Return targeting Sutured Ghoul/Reveillark. If you run the Sutured Ghoul version, you remove Lord of Extinction to make him humongous. Anger gives him haste, you attack and win. If you run the Reveillark version, after you DR Reveillark, sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy to return Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite to play, then proceed to make infinite Pestermites and attack for the win.
Here are some sample plays:
Scenario A - Turn 1 fetch Badlands and Entomb for Anger at opponent's EOT. Turn 2 either fetch Taiga/Play Lotus Petal/Remove ESG or SSG, play Hermit/Summoner's Pact for Hermit, play Lotus Petal/Remove ESG, Activate Hermit and win.
Scenario B - Turn 1 Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy. Turn 2 Entomb for Anger, Play land, Play Lotus Petal/Remove Spirit Guide, Play Hermit/Pact for Hermit, Play Lotus Petal/Remove ESG, Activate Hermit and win.
There are obviously other iterations, but these are the most common ones. Note that you can also slow-roll the combo if you need to wait for an opportune moment to go off.
At any rate I would not like to see Hermit Druid unbanned, based on the strengths I've seen in this deck. It takes a completely different approach to combo than Storm variants, making it very difficult for non-blue decks to attack it effectively, and as a result it would make fewer decks viable in the format overall.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
DalkonCledwin ~ 1st... Hermit Druid has potental to eat most of the deck if activated in searching for the lone land before a Goblin Charbelcher activation. (it doesnt help Belcher)
As for vintage dredge, if Hermit Druid is partly that good, people would try to use him in a budget build.
As for earthcraft... the format has tons of answers against enchantments, sorry but you argument dont make any sense.
I dont see DCI is going to unbanned channel so I'll let you win that argument
Audiox ~ nice decklist but I hardly see how 14 lands can turn into a 1 or 2 turn win with Hermit Druid especially since ol Hermit Druid has summoning sickness. (Am I missing something here???)
Audiox ~ nice decklist but I hardly see how 14 lands can turn into a 1 or 2 Hermit Druid especially since ol Hermit Druid has summoning sickness. (Am I missing something here???)
All of your fetchlands can grab either dual land in your deck, so you won't hurt for colors, ever.
Turn one win involves a lot of fast mana in hand and casting Entomb for Anger (who gives Hermit haste if you control a Mountain -- Surprise! All your lands are mountains!) and using your fast mana to cast and activate Hermit Druid.
Second turn wins are much more common since you can Entomb Anger turn 1 on Opponent's EOT and just cast your Druid turn 2 and use one piece of fast mana to activate it. Or you can just run him out turn one and hope they don't nuke him before you can activate him turn 2.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
All of your fetchlands can grab either dual land in your deck, so you won't hurt for colors, ever.
Turn one win involves a lot of fast mana in hand and casting Entomb for Anger (who gives Hermit haste if you control a Mountain -- Surprise! All your lands are mountains!) and using your fast mana to cast and activate Hermit Druid.
Second turn wins are much more common since you can Entomb Anger turn 1 on Opponent's EOT and just cast your Druid turn 2 and use one piece of fast mana to activate it. Or you can just run him out turn one and hope they don't nuke him before you can activate him turn 2.
The effort in getting him into play and trigger it's ability quickly (before getting killed) requries more work then necessary and risky, like I've said if he has a hint of being as good as DCI has feared he would of did something in vintage; so far he hasnt.
I would like to see your deck in action, maybe I'll test it on workstation later... but I dont see it being worse... (maybe fun to add a new combo deck into the game but hardly warping the format)
The effort in getting him into play and trigger it's ability quickly (before getting killed) requries more work then necessary and risky, like I've said if he has a hint of being as good as DCI has feared he would of did something in vintage; so far he hasnt.
The reason it doesn't see play in Vintage is because, for one, and this might sound weird, due to the nature of the format it's just too slow. When you've got a colorless, two-card combo that can win the game on turn one, a two-costing green (of all colors) creature that wins after you activate it hardly sounds appealing. Secondly, you can easily die from Ancestral Recall (remember it targets!), plus you have to figure in that arguably the best deck in the format currently is Lodestone Golem Stax, which eats any and all combo for breakfast. Also, most decks pack 7 or 8 pieces of graveyard hate, including Leyline of the Void by default because Ichorid will rape you if you don't. Yeah, Vintage and Legacy are two completely different animals and can't really be compared at this point.
As for the effort of getting him into play, it's really not that much. It actually uses fewer cards than Belcher, often leaving you with Pact backup or the ability to make the opponent discard before you go off.
I would like to see your deck in action, maybe I'll test it on workstation later... but I dont see it being worse... (maybe fun to add a new combo deck into the game but hardly warping the format)
I never claimed it was unbeatable. With the right hate you can win against it just like any other combo deck. The danger comes from the fact that it is just one more fast combo deck in the format. The more you add, the harder it becomes to hate all of them effectively. There has to be a balance or else the format devolves very quickly.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
The reason it doesn't see play in Vintage is because, for one, and this might sound weird, due to the nature of the format it's just too slow. When you've got a colorless, two-card combo that can win the game on turn one, a two-costing green (of all colors) creature that wins after you activate it hardly sounds appealing.
hehe... it does sound weird to say a card can make a 1st turn or 2nd turn win and be called slow.
Secondly, you can easily die from Ancestral Recall (remember it targets!),
so a big fear is 1 card out of 60 in a deck that cost 500 dollars... I have an answer for it "4 creatures that go back to the library that hits the graveyard"
plus you have to figure in that arguably the best deck in the format currently is Lodestone Golem Stax, which eats any and all combo for breakfast.
Hmmmmmm... so why is brainstorm restricted? [no need to answer this, I was told that brainstorm was restricted because it makes combo good, now your telling me the best deck in the vintage is control... ]
Also, most decks pack 7 or 8 pieces of graveyard hate, including Leyline of the Void by default because Ichorid will rape you if you don't.
Same is true with Legacy... Dredge is on a downward spiral... I think its because Wizards is making better cards that attack the graveyard and players used the graveyard as a resource others think its because of entomb.
Yeah, Vintage and Legacy are two completely different animals and can't really be compared at this point.
Agree!!!
As for the effort of getting him into play, it's really not that much. It actually uses fewer cards than Belcher, often leaving you with Pact backup or the ability to make the opponent discard before you go off.
I feel different, Elvish Piper and Goblin Tinker are legal in Legacy and combo nuts but usually when people post decks with them they are usually shot down as "easy kills" for a combo piece... I dont see how Hermit Druid is any better.
I never claimed it was unbeatable. With the right hate you can win against it just like any other combo deck. The danger comes from the fact that it is just one more fast combo deck in the format. The more you add, the harder it becomes to hate all of them effectively. There has to be a balance or else the format devolves very quickly.
Personally I believe in cards getting banned when they prove to warp the format, not suspected and not assumed, Legacy is new and most of the cards banned is based on the old type 1/1.5 rules and in the last days before the creation of Legacy many of the cards got an unfair restriction because DCI was trying to make type 1.5 work with power house cards like mana drain, bazaar, workshops and oath was running around.
I dont think releasing a few combo cards will make the format devolve any quicker, that is fear sounding.
muodoka ~ 1st we are on topic... 2nd banning Lion's eye diamond and Sensei's Divining Top is a bad idea. 3rd Zoo is currently a top Dog, at least top 10, although I think the cost of duals make the deck very expensive to play.
As for earthcraft... the format has tons of answers against enchantments, sorry but you argument dont make any sense.
I dont see DCI is going to unbanned channel so I'll let you win that argument
Audiox ~ nice decklist but I hardly see how 14 lands can turn into a 1 or 2 turn win with Hermit Druid especially since ol Hermit Druid has summoning sickness. (Am I missing something here???)
Okay, first off, Earthcraft is indeed an enchantment. And it is vulnerable to most if not all enchantment removal. But, there is a weakness in the fact that you need instant speed enchantment removal, and cheap ones as well. It only takes 5 mana to get the Earthcraft Combo going, and that is NOT that hard for a dedicated Green Acceleration deck AT ALL. Additionally once in play it can create an infinite number of squirrel tokens and do it at instant speed, so whatever enchantment removal you have, HAS to have split second. Same with land destruction.
Thus, the only VIABLE answer (and I will admit I was wrong about this earlier) is Krosan Grip. I say this because any other answer, they can simply respond to with either the squirrel nest activated ability, or the earthcraft activated ability, and then just continue churning out their squirrel tokens ad infinitium until such a time as they decide to allow your answer to resolve. In otherwords the only reasonable answer is one with split second. (there are obviously other split second alternatives to Krosan Grip, but none of them are particularly any good as an answer to the combo).
I will thank you for "Letting me" win the argument about Channel. Though it is not much of a concession when you think about it, because in all honesty that card simply cannot be unbanned in the presence of such obvious heavy hitters in the format. It is in essence a 1 card combo much like Tinker is.
As for AudioX's deck list, I think you are missing one thing and only one thing. Hermit Druid specifically indicates that it searches for a basic-land card. None of the lands in AudioX's list are basic lands. In fact in my opinion that is a huge deck building mistake because basically it will dump ones entire deck into the graveyard giving you exactly ONE turn to win, the turn you activate the druid on.
@ Zoo becoming Top Dog: as of right now, Zoo is one of the strongest decks in the Legacy environment (at least as far as I know, I will admit I haven't checked in a couple of weeks as I have been busy with other things, but it seems that way to me). As such I think what banning LED and SDT will in all likelyhood end up doing instead, is pushing control and combo out of the meta, at least in part. In doing so, it will make Aggro decks much more dominant than they are right now. And make people harder pressed to have answers to aggro decks.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Okay, first off, Earthcraft is indeed an enchantment. And it is vulnerable to most if not all enchantment removal. But, there is a weakness in the fact that you need instant speed enchantment removal, and cheap ones as well. It only takes 5 mana to get the Earthcraft Combo going, and that is NOT that hard for a dedicated Green Acceleration deck AT ALL. Additionally once in play it can create an infinite number of squirrel tokens and do it at instant speed, so whatever enchantment removal you have, HAS to have split second. Same with land destruction.
Thus, the only VIABLE answer (and I will admit I was wrong about this earlier) is Krosan Grip. I say this because any other answer, they can simply respond to with either the squirrel nest activated ability, or the earthcraft activated ability, and then just continue churning out their squirrel tokens ad infinitium until such a time as they decide to allow your answer to resolve. In otherwords the only reasonable answer is one with split second. (there are obviously other split second alternatives to Krosan Grip, but none of them are particularly any good as an answer to the combo).
I thought people are playing with Krosan Grip because of Countertop.
I will thank you for "Letting me" win the argument about Channel. Though it is not much of a concession when you think about it, because in all honesty that card simply cannot be unbanned in the presence of such obvious heavy hitters in the format. It is in essence a 1 card combo much like Tinker is.
Channel and Tinker is a tough cookies on this debate.
As for AudioX's deck list, I think you are missing one thing and only one thing. Hermit Druid specifically indicates that it searches for a basic-land card. None of the lands in AudioX's list are basic lands. In fact in my opinion that is a huge deck building mistake because basically it will dump ones entire deck into the graveyard giving you exactly ONE turn to win, the turn you activate the druid on.
Yep you are correct at first I did forget its ability says basic land.
Although Hermit Druid is weak:
Easy kill for a key combo piece, has summoning sickness and activated ability can be fixed with pithing needle (which is already used in many sideboards)
The combo is risky:
Opponent plays frog/sporefrog and you lose
Opponent makes you draw a card you lose
Opponent plays graveyard hate you lose
Like I said... nobody is playing hermit druid in vintage because its a high risk deck, at least vintage has Yawgmoth's Will.
audiox deck also doesnt have enough protection, he is going with speed in hopes to pull the quick win but it does requre lots of lucky draws (since he's not controlling his draw ~ brainstorm/Lim-Dûl's Vault/etc) and Summoner's Pact seems like a good card but you'll need at least 3 mana in play and anger in the graveyard for it to payoff... And if the opponent counterspells the druid you'll lose (actually you'll need 4 mana in play to counter daze)
I like to see the deck in action, it'll be fun to watch but I dont think it'll be format wrecking...
I thought people are playing with Krosan Grip because of Countertop.
Channel and Tinker is a tough cookies on this debate.
Yep you are correct at first I did forget its ability says basic land.
Although Hermit Druid is weak:
Easy kill for a key combo piece, has summoning sickness and activated ability can be fixed with pithing needle (which is already used in many sideboards)
The combo is risky:
Opponent plays frog/sporefrog and you lose
Opponent makes you draw a card you lose
Opponent plays graveyard hate you lose
Like I said... nobody is playing hermit druid in vintage because its a high risk deck, at least vintage has Yawgmoth's Will.
audiox deck also doesnt have enough protection, he is going with speed in hopes to pull the quick win but it does requre lots of lucky draws (since he's not controlling his draw ~ brainstorm/Lim-Dûl's Vault/etc) and Summoner's Pact seems like a good card but you'll need at least 3 mana in play and anger in the graveyard for it to payoff... And if the opponent counterspells the druid you'll lose (actually you'll need 4 mana in play to counter daze)
I like to see the deck in action, it'll be fun to watch but I dont think it'll be format wrecking...
Agreed on all points. Of course the deck isn't format wrecking by itself. The problem I'm seeing is where the line must be drawn. Fast combo decks are all glass cannons. They die to specific hate, but when you start to add more fast combo decks to the meta that require different hate, it becomes harder to hate all of them as effectively. Blue obviously doesn't suffer from this, but aggro decks most certainly do. We've already come out of a period of control domination and are starting to see success from decks like Zoo and Goblins again, but start adding more fast combo decks to the field and that stops. Even something as fragile as Hermit Druid eats aggro decks for breakfast unless they are blue-based. Should it come to the point that we need to dedicate 7-8 slots just to grave hate? I would like to think not.
While the combo itself is fragile I feel like it would decrease the fundamental turn of the format overall and make aggro a poor choice, which is unhealthy, in my opinion.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
That said, have at!
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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My H/W list
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Why? Dredge could play Magus of the Bazaar it has the same abilites as Bazaar of Baghdad and nobody is playing with the Magus, I actually picked up a playset of magus and find it hard to cast a 2cc spell in a dredge deck.
I think he'll become another Mind Over Matter...
Others...
Worldgorger Dragon, the combo isnt dangerous...
Earthcraft, this banning has never made any sense even when DCI wanted to restricted Earthcraft to fix type 1.5... its was based on a 2 card combo that didnt even warp the format.
Channel, I still dont see a 2 turn win, unless you are talking about a lucky 'untouched' hand. I think people are afraid it's going to warp the format and repeat the "flash ban cry" although and unlike vintage, burn is very strong in legacy and would place anyplayer playing using channel at sudden death risk.
Actually, Necro became "supergood" once bolt and chain was removed form extended. It seems that people has forget that sligh and burn kept necro in check.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Unbanning Hermit Druid would be bad because it would enable one to turn both Belcher and Dredge into amazing power houses, and I don't want to see that happening. Unbanning Bazaar of Baghdad would give Dredge an engine that it really doesn't need.
Animate Dead
Worldgorger Dragon
Magus of the Bazaar or Bazaar of Baghdad if it were unbanned along side of the Dragon.
Ambassador Laquatus and any basic lands
Would all work together to create an infinite milling engine that is completely devestating. And nearly unstopable.
The only thing that really stops this combo is Ghost Quarter and I have seen people give me really long lectures about how bad that card is.
Are you actually advocating the unbanning of a card that would enable the hard casting of Emrakul or any of the other Eldrazi Titans on turn 3 (or even earlier given the right mana base)?
Turn 1 if you run any Moxen or Lotus Petal.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
No, but it's clunky and easily hated. Worth testing if you ask me, i'm not saying it won't be totally borked but i don't think it will completely destroy the format when it comes off. people thought unbanning Dreamhalls was going to be huge, and it was for about 3 months before people realized that the unbanning of entomb was much more relevant.
but i think a good chunk of the banned list could be allowed legal because if people are going to say that its too powerful. look at what we have now, ANT, dredge, Belcher, TES, doomsday tendrils, and other combo decks... all of these decks can win turn 1-2 easily and usually by turn 3 they win. if there are cards that need to be banned it should be LED and SDT. cards that should be unbanned should be: mind twist, mana drain, black vise, earthcraft, frantic search, grim monolith, hermit druid, tinker, and yawgmoth's bargain.
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
Mindtwist, black vise, earthcraft, frantic search, grim monolith, hermit druid all seem reasonable to take off the ban list, however, Mana drain seems way too powerful for Legacy since it can give a deck a huge tempo advantage. Tinker is obvious, it is both a strong tutor and a mana accelerant since it brings the permanent straight into play, not to mention their is no restricted list so decks would be able to play 4 copies of tinker. As for yawgmoth's bargain, it is one of the strongest draw engines to ever see print, it would give combo decks all of the gas they need to go off for very little investment.
Feaor ~ Black Vise should be banned because the format does require draws per turn.
DalkonCledwin ~ funny Hermit Druid is unrestricted in Vintage and I dont know of a belcher or a dredge build. I still dont see how Hermit Druid helps Belcher, I do see it helping non-dredge ichorid but that's the extent. It may bring out a new deck and triple its going price... but hardly a reason to be banned.
I'm not sure about you argument with earthcraft...
As for Channel, I dont see it as a problem in legacy but I dont see it getting unbanned because players will cry louder then flash... I dont think DCI wants that bs so they are not going to unbanned it.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Yawg's bargain is ad nauseam. On steroids. Seriously, paying 1 life to draw a card is about as broken as it gets so you can draw 10 cards, mystical tutor, then instantly draw the card you mystical tutored for. Seems insanely broken. Necropotence MIGHT be able to get unbanned but that's because you draw the cards at EoT and have to discard but that's still a problem because sui black would get a huge boost being able to have 8 cards in hand at the beginning of their turn.
Mana drain? Really? Lets say that zoo is on the draw vs. landstill. Landstill says land go. Zoo goes land dude and passes. Landstill says land go. Zoo goes land swings plays a dude, then plays a burn spell which gets drained. Turn 3 landstill casts ***/humility. GG's zoo. Landstill has stabilized and proceeds to win.
Or drain combo. Seems nasty when mana drain connects with something 3cmc or more, especially FoW or NO.
EDIT: Hell no to necro.
Currently Playing:
Retired
The entire point of the Goblin Charbelcher deck is to work by having as few lands main decked as possible. Hermit Druid would help Goblin Charbelcher by allowing it to run 1 or 2 basic lands, then play the Druid, Fetch the Land, go off the same turn with the Charbelcher for possibly the max damage that is possible with that deck. Basically the Druid would add consistency to the deck that is currently not present in the deck without adding a color.
I can't really see it being played in Dredge as much as in Charbelcher but it is possible as it would enable them to basically dump all of their bridges into the grave really fast.
The reason you don't see them in Vintage is because they are potentially too slow for Vintage when compared to other cards that are infinitely faster in doing what the decks needs done. For example Vintage Dredge would much rather be running Bazaar of Baghdad than it would the Druid.
As far as Earthcraft goes. The primary combo with that card is Squirrel Nest. Due to the Errata on Earthcraft, the Squirrel Nest MUST be enchanting a basic land. Can you name any land destruction that is at instant speed other than Ghost Quarter within Legacy that destroys basic lands? If not then I have made my point quite well.
As far as Channel goes, there are several potential spells that could be used along side of Channel. However only THREE that are actually worth using due to the fact that they can go in a mono-green deck. Those being the three Eldrazi Titans. Of those, only Emrakul is actually really bomby enough to make it worth losing 15 life in the off chance that you can swing with her after you drop her to a channel. Mainly because she gives you another turn as soon as cast and basically wipes your opponents entire field upon attacking, as well as having inherent protection for herself.
This guy is dangerous to unban. I've been testing a couple of builds with it and it is scary fast, and pretty consistent. It goes off on turn 1 or 2 almost every time, and I've never experienced a win any slower than turn 3 unless I intentionally slow-rolled it.
Here's the list I started with:
Angry Hermit Redux, v1
// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [b] Taiga
3 [b] Badlands
// Creatures
1 [JU] Sutured Ghoul
4 [SH] Hermit Druid
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
1 [ARB] Lord of Extinction
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [JU] Anger
3 [FUT] Narcomoeba
// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
Straight-forward, balls-to-the wall combo. You go for the old school win with Sutured Ghoul removing some big fat, in this case Lord of Extinction. Alternately, you can win with zombie tokens and a Dread Returned FKZ, but this proved to be easily thwarted by something as simple as Cursecatcher removing all of your bridge tokens, while the other strategy seemed weak to point-removal, so I devised an alternate build with more disruption, but without the Bridge From Below combo, allowing for a more focused game-plan.
Angry Hermit Redux, v2
// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [b] Taiga
3 [b] Badlands
// Creatures
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [LRW] Pestermite
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SH] Hermit Druid
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [JU] Anger
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
The extra discard goes the distance when it comes to things like Ravenous Trap or Faerie Macabre, allowing you to clear the path for your combo to go off without a hitch. You also patch your vulnerability against Swords to Plowshares by gaining access to Cabal Therapy before you reanimate Reveillark. I'm not certain if either build is strictly better than the other, as different metas would bring different challenges, but both definitely have their merits.
The upside of build 2 is that you don't get Bridges clogging your hand, however if you happen to draw 3 Narcomoebas you can't go off. In testing this hasn't been a problem since you aim to win on turn 1 or 2 anyway, but I can see it being a potential weakness.
Anyway, for those who don't see what's going on, the way the deck works is this: Dump your entire library into your graveyard with Hermit Druid's ability, since you have no basic lands to make the milling stop. Narcomoebas enter the battlefield. Sac Three Narcomoebas/Two Narcomoebas and Hermit Druid to cast Dread Return targeting Sutured Ghoul/Reveillark. If you run the Sutured Ghoul version, you remove Lord of Extinction to make him humongous. Anger gives him haste, you attack and win. If you run the Reveillark version, after you DR Reveillark, sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy to return Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite to play, then proceed to make infinite Pestermites and attack for the win.
Here are some sample plays:
Scenario A - Turn 1 fetch Badlands and Entomb for Anger at opponent's EOT. Turn 2 either fetch Taiga/Play Lotus Petal/Remove ESG or SSG, play Hermit/Summoner's Pact for Hermit, play Lotus Petal/Remove ESG, Activate Hermit and win.
Scenario B - Turn 1 Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy. Turn 2 Entomb for Anger, Play land, Play Lotus Petal/Remove Spirit Guide, Play Hermit/Pact for Hermit, Play Lotus Petal/Remove ESG, Activate Hermit and win.
Scenario C - Turn 1 Fetch/Badlands, Entomb Anger, Lotus Petal/ESG/SSG, Lotus Petal/ESG/SSG, Lotus Petal/ESG/SSG, Hermit/SPact, Activate, Win.
Scenario D - Turn 1 Fetch/Badlands, Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, Lotus Petal/ESG/SSG, Lotus Petal/ESG/SSG, Hermit Druid, pass turn. Turn 2 Activate and win.
Scenario E - Turn 1 Land, Lotus Petal/ESG/SSG, Hermit Druid, Pass Turn. Turn 2 Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, land Activate, win.
Scenario F - Turn 1 Land, Lotus Petal/ESG/SSG, Hermit Druid, Pass Turn. Turn 2 Activate, win.
There are obviously other iterations, but these are the most common ones. Note that you can also slow-roll the combo if you need to wait for an opportune moment to go off.
At any rate I would not like to see Hermit Druid unbanned, based on the strengths I've seen in this deck. It takes a completely different approach to combo than Storm variants, making it very difficult for non-blue decks to attack it effectively, and as a result it would make fewer decks viable in the format overall.
As for vintage dredge, if Hermit Druid is partly that good, people would try to use him in a budget build.
As for earthcraft... the format has tons of answers against enchantments, sorry but you argument dont make any sense.
I dont see DCI is going to unbanned channel so I'll let you win that argument
Audiox ~ nice decklist but I hardly see how 14 lands can turn into a 1 or 2 turn win with Hermit Druid especially since ol Hermit Druid has summoning sickness. (Am I missing something here???)
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
There are 28 mana sources. 14 lands, 4 Elvish Spirit Guide, 4 Simian Spirit Guide, 4 Lotus Petal.
All of your fetchlands can grab either dual land in your deck, so you won't hurt for colors, ever.
Turn one win involves a lot of fast mana in hand and casting Entomb for Anger (who gives Hermit haste if you control a Mountain -- Surprise! All your lands are mountains!) and using your fast mana to cast and activate Hermit Druid.
Second turn wins are much more common since you can Entomb Anger turn 1 on Opponent's EOT and just cast your Druid turn 2 and use one piece of fast mana to activate it. Or you can just run him out turn one and hope they don't nuke him before you can activate him turn 2.
The effort in getting him into play and trigger it's ability quickly (before getting killed) requries more work then necessary and risky, like I've said if he has a hint of being as good as DCI has feared he would of did something in vintage; so far he hasnt.
I would like to see your deck in action, maybe I'll test it on workstation later... but I dont see it being worse... (maybe fun to add a new combo deck into the game but hardly warping the format)
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
The reason it doesn't see play in Vintage is because, for one, and this might sound weird, due to the nature of the format it's just too slow. When you've got a colorless, two-card combo that can win the game on turn one, a two-costing green (of all colors) creature that wins after you activate it hardly sounds appealing. Secondly, you can easily die from Ancestral Recall (remember it targets!), plus you have to figure in that arguably the best deck in the format currently is Lodestone Golem Stax, which eats any and all combo for breakfast. Also, most decks pack 7 or 8 pieces of graveyard hate, including Leyline of the Void by default because Ichorid will rape you if you don't. Yeah, Vintage and Legacy are two completely different animals and can't really be compared at this point.
As for the effort of getting him into play, it's really not that much. It actually uses fewer cards than Belcher, often leaving you with Pact backup or the ability to make the opponent discard before you go off.
I never claimed it was unbeatable. With the right hate you can win against it just like any other combo deck. The danger comes from the fact that it is just one more fast combo deck in the format. The more you add, the harder it becomes to hate all of them effectively. There has to be a balance or else the format devolves very quickly.
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
Have you seen the results of the last two Legacy 5k's? Zoo seems pretty healthy right now.
hehe... it does sound weird to say a card can make a 1st turn or 2nd turn win and be called slow.
so a big fear is 1 card out of 60 in a deck that cost 500 dollars... I have an answer for it "4 creatures that go back to the library that hits the graveyard"
Hmmmmmm... so why is brainstorm restricted? [no need to answer this, I was told that brainstorm was restricted because it makes combo good, now your telling me the best deck in the vintage is control... ]
Same is true with Legacy... Dredge is on a downward spiral... I think its because Wizards is making better cards that attack the graveyard and players used the graveyard as a resource others think its because of entomb.
Agree!!!
I feel different, Elvish Piper and Goblin Tinker are legal in Legacy and combo nuts but usually when people post decks with them they are usually shot down as "easy kills" for a combo piece... I dont see how Hermit Druid is any better.
Personally I believe in cards getting banned when they prove to warp the format, not suspected and not assumed, Legacy is new and most of the cards banned is based on the old type 1/1.5 rules and in the last days before the creation of Legacy many of the cards got an unfair restriction because DCI was trying to make type 1.5 work with power house cards like mana drain, bazaar, workshops and oath was running around.
I dont think releasing a few combo cards will make the format devolve any quicker, that is fear sounding.
muodoka ~ 1st we are on topic... 2nd banning Lion's eye diamond and Sensei's Divining Top is a bad idea. 3rd Zoo is currently a top Dog, at least top 10, although I think the cost of duals make the deck very expensive to play.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Okay, first off, Earthcraft is indeed an enchantment. And it is vulnerable to most if not all enchantment removal. But, there is a weakness in the fact that you need instant speed enchantment removal, and cheap ones as well. It only takes 5 mana to get the Earthcraft Combo going, and that is NOT that hard for a dedicated Green Acceleration deck AT ALL. Additionally once in play it can create an infinite number of squirrel tokens and do it at instant speed, so whatever enchantment removal you have, HAS to have split second. Same with land destruction.
Thus, the only VIABLE answer (and I will admit I was wrong about this earlier) is Krosan Grip. I say this because any other answer, they can simply respond to with either the squirrel nest activated ability, or the earthcraft activated ability, and then just continue churning out their squirrel tokens ad infinitium until such a time as they decide to allow your answer to resolve. In otherwords the only reasonable answer is one with split second. (there are obviously other split second alternatives to Krosan Grip, but none of them are particularly any good as an answer to the combo).
I will thank you for "Letting me" win the argument about Channel. Though it is not much of a concession when you think about it, because in all honesty that card simply cannot be unbanned in the presence of such obvious heavy hitters in the format. It is in essence a 1 card combo much like Tinker is.
As for AudioX's deck list, I think you are missing one thing and only one thing. Hermit Druid specifically indicates that it searches for a basic-land card. None of the lands in AudioX's list are basic lands. In fact in my opinion that is a huge deck building mistake because basically it will dump ones entire deck into the graveyard giving you exactly ONE turn to win, the turn you activate the druid on.
@ Zoo becoming Top Dog: as of right now, Zoo is one of the strongest decks in the Legacy environment (at least as far as I know, I will admit I haven't checked in a couple of weeks as I have been busy with other things, but it seems that way to me). As such I think what banning LED and SDT will in all likelyhood end up doing instead, is pushing control and combo out of the meta, at least in part. In doing so, it will make Aggro decks much more dominant than they are right now. And make people harder pressed to have answers to aggro decks.
I thought people are playing with Krosan Grip because of Countertop.
Channel and Tinker is a tough cookies on this debate.
Yep you are correct at first I did forget its ability says basic land.
Although Hermit Druid is weak:
Easy kill for a key combo piece, has summoning sickness and activated ability can be fixed with pithing needle (which is already used in many sideboards)
The combo is risky:
Opponent plays frog/sporefrog and you lose
Opponent makes you draw a card you lose
Opponent plays graveyard hate you lose
Like I said... nobody is playing hermit druid in vintage because its a high risk deck, at least vintage has Yawgmoth's Will.
audiox deck also doesnt have enough protection, he is going with speed in hopes to pull the quick win but it does requre lots of lucky draws (since he's not controlling his draw ~ brainstorm/Lim-Dûl's Vault/etc) and Summoner's Pact seems like a good card but you'll need at least 3 mana in play and anger in the graveyard for it to payoff... And if the opponent counterspells the druid you'll lose (actually you'll need 4 mana in play to counter daze)
I like to see the deck in action, it'll be fun to watch but I dont think it'll be format wrecking...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Agreed on all points. Of course the deck isn't format wrecking by itself. The problem I'm seeing is where the line must be drawn. Fast combo decks are all glass cannons. They die to specific hate, but when you start to add more fast combo decks to the meta that require different hate, it becomes harder to hate all of them as effectively. Blue obviously doesn't suffer from this, but aggro decks most certainly do. We've already come out of a period of control domination and are starting to see success from decks like Zoo and Goblins again, but start adding more fast combo decks to the field and that stops. Even something as fragile as Hermit Druid eats aggro decks for breakfast unless they are blue-based. Should it come to the point that we need to dedicate 7-8 slots just to grave hate? I would like to think not.
While the combo itself is fragile I feel like it would decrease the fundamental turn of the format overall and make aggro a poor choice, which is unhealthy, in my opinion.
I am with Dyne on this.
I am also surprised that no one has mentioned the marijuana of Legacy: Land Tax
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