So basically you want High Tide to be the best deck in the format? Also if you want to hurt the decks plopping fat into play you ban the enabler and not the card thats enabled, what happens if they just print another enormous creature like Progenitus and Emrakul that you can S&T or NO into play? Do we ban those cards as well?
I've heard that high tide without time spiral is pretty bad, but I might be wrong
I sort of tried to justify why not the enabler (because typically it is correct to ban the enabler), however, I think that those 2 particular creatures cause so much grief that they are worse than what they fetch
I think Iona could probably get banned as well, but if players know to pack some hate for the graveyard archetypes, Iona probably isn't going to be as insane as it was when Mystical was around
I've heard that high tide without time spiral is pretty bad, but I might be wrong
I sort of tried to justify why not the enabler (because typically it is correct to ban the enabler), however, I think that those 2 particular creatures cause so much grief that they are worse than what they fetch
I think Iona could probably get banned as well, but if players know to pack some hate for the graveyard archetypes, Iona probably isn't going to be as insane as it was when Mystical was around
just my 2 cents
High Tide is SO much better with Frantic Search unbanned, in fact Frantic Search is actually stronger than Time Spiral from what I understand from people's testing.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Spring tide can go off on turn 3 with ridiculous consistency when it packs 4 frantic search. Not to mention solidarity would love the card as well.
Progenitus and emrakul will never get the banhammer in legacy. You can quote me on that. The degenerate cards in those scenarios are natural order and show and tell, but even those 2 cards don't deserve the banhammer.
I would looooooove for frantic search to get unbanned but that's only because I would abuse the hell out of it in high tide based combo namely solidarity since it can beat the living **** out of spring tide with ease.
Frantic search >>>>> time spiral in high tide based combo.
Mind twist is probably safe IMO. It's a lategame card; and when you spend 4 mana on a mind twist it's marginally better than hymn to tourach albeit highly splashable but the fact is when you resolve something at 4 mana you generally win the game anyway if your deck is built to be competitive. See: jace, natural order, ad nauseam, tendrils, etc. etc.
Time spiral doesn't need to get rebanned. It's a lot safer than frantic search as I just explained above. And the fact is that it's symmetrical you both get to draw 7 and you can fizzle out and yes I have seen people fizzle after casting time spiral.
But yeah misstep is literally one of the best cards in the format. I used to see blue control floating around in some numbers that weren't dominating by any means but now blue control and aggro control decks are just everywhere seemingly.
But yeah before time spiral was unbanned high tide decks still existed. People just wanted to break time spiral when it was unbanned because whenever something gets unbanned there's a mad rush to break the card typically.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Zoo is a very resiliant deck, but most of the players in my meta have either stopped playing zoo, or are now playing Mental Missteps themselves.
It seems like this card as warped legacy to the point of your "71 cards, and four mental missteps"
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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No, it hasn't. What has happened is that people are refusing to adapt to the new metagame. You can avoid Misstep by, ya know, not running 1CC cards.
People have been doing that, and they just haven't been doing as well as if they just played Mental Misstep. The card is literally everywhere, its in basically every deck ever and the decks that are actually winning are the ones playing Mental Misstep. At the last SCG Open there were a total of 53 copies of Mental Misstep out of a possible 64 and every deck played Mental Misstep in their 75 except Zoo.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Not to derail the MM argument (which I find interesting since I am a Zoo player that's thinking of playing MM to protect my one drops and I find that sad), but why is Brainstorm restricted in Vintage and not banned in Legacy?
I won't say that I necessarily believe it should be banned in Legacy, but it seems odd that in a format that is even more powerful (with Power 9 and whatnot), Brainstorm was "too powerful" and thus restricted, but they left it alone in Legacy. Why?
No, it hasn't. What has happened is that people are refusing to adapt to the new metagame. You can avoid Misstep by, ya know, not running 1CC cards.
Yeah, make a deck with zero one drop's and see if it can compete in legacy. Answer: It can't.
The writing is on the wall whether you like it or not. Misstep has broken legacy, what remains to be seen is whether WotC will ban the card come Sept. 20.
SFM? Really? That card is only banworthy because mental misstep exists. Without MM, guess what SFM becomes. You literally have to force of will the removal spell on SFM and if they have another whoops you're blown out because you just forced a meaningless card. SFM is completely safe for the moment.
Vintage is a completely different animal when compared to legacy. If you have access to 4 brainstorm in that format, it is a lot easier to find restricted cards. Same with ponder. Preordain was almost restricted upon release but they decided not to.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
You can avoid Misstep by, ya know, not running 1CC cards.
Sounds like someone wants to get steamrolled by Hive Mind all day long.
Most U/W Stoneforge players agree that one of the strongest spells in the deck is Misstep, as it allows them to protect Mystic while simultaneously countering on the draw. Also, no one wants the Reserve List except the collectors at this point, but Wizards put it down in writing that it would maintain it. I hate them for it, but if integrity is bad, then what's good?
To all of the people claiming Misstep is "fair", what did the card actually help anyone with? It didn't diversify the meta (it actually narrowed it), it doesn't make the game more enjoyable (yay to getting my first couple plays countered and losing....), and generally warps the format. The card is stupid, as Legacy is made to be a format where our curve is usually ~1-5 cmc. It's generally not a good idea to completely cut out an entire cmc in a format where most of our removal and some back-breaking plays fall. Misstep ruined the format in a lot of ways, and I challenge anyone to show me how Misstep is a healthy card.
The printing of Mental Misstep was a clear mistake. The Meta was very healthy in the time between the ban of Survival and the New Phyrexia. Just look at the tope decks of Starcity Opens :
1. Kansas City - Goblins
2. San Jose - Goblins
3. Indianapolis - CounterTop RUG
4. Washington - Team America
5. Edison - High Tide
6. Memphis - Merfolk
7. Fort Worth - Tezzeret Affinity
8. Los Angeles - Painted Stone
9. Atlanta - High Tide
10. Boston - Merfolk
11. Charlotte - U/R Stifle Control
At least we have 3 non blue decks as winners, 3 non Force of will decks.
Lets see now the the winners after the printing of Mental Misstep :
1. Orlando - Team America
2. Louisville - Mono-Blue Control
3. Indianapolis - NO R/U/G
4. Denver - Hive Mind
5. Baltimore - 4 Color Loam
6. Cincinnati - Manaless Dredge
7. Seattle - Hive Mind
8. Pittsburgh - Team America
9. Richmond - Show and Tell
10. Boston - NO RUG
Here we have 2 Non Fow, non MM decks - Manaless Dredge and 4 Color Loam. Both of them trying to dodge Mental Misstep.
I think your list demonstrate that we still have a varied meta, with 7 differents winner in 10 tournaments. 8/11 blue decks is not very different from 8/10; The truth is blue was always the dominant color of the format and Brainstorm do lot more to help it than Misstep. That said, it's still possible to win without blue as Dredge and Aggro Loam show (and Zoo decks and W/B decks that still see success, and also Elves, Metalworker, etc).
Edit - I repeat myself but playing in an environnement without Sensei's Divining Top is very enjoyable. Before Misstep, 1/4 decks in local meta was Countertop, meaning there was always games that go to time. Lots of games against CB Top and storm was boring and/or non-interractive. By slowing the meta, MM allowed to more interactives and interesting games. And there is decks that can win almost without any 1-drop, like Loam, B/W or stompy decks.
I think your list demonstrate that we still have a varied meta, with 7 differents winner in 10 tournaments. 8/11 blue decks is not very different from 8/10; The truth is blue was always the dominant color of the format and Brainstorm do lot more to help it than Misstep. That said, it's still possible to win without blue as Dredge and Aggro Loam show (and Zoo decks and W/B decks that still see success, and also Elves, Metalworker, etc).
I noticed that you mentioned Metalworker as a deck that could win the current meta. Though Metalworker is better blue in the current meta as the Red version simply falls prey to Mental Misstep.
Because they don't want to lose their Brainstorms, Ponders and Preordains that make up 99.9% of legacy decks.
Innovation, what's that?
You know what I would really like to see? Brainstorm Banned.
There, I said it. If it's restricted in Vintage, it makes sense that it's too strong for Legacy. Simply ban Brainstorm and now 90% of what Mental Misstep is actually used for is gone (the other 10% being Sensei's Top).
So we should also ban Ponder, Gifts Ungiven, and Burning Wish since they are all restricted in Vintage
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Lol. MM does not need to be banned. People just need to stop crying that Magic is RUINED FOREVER every time a new set comes out.
Maybe the modern format isnt a bad idea... maybe those that dont want Mental Misstep should drop Legacy and play Modern.
You don't have to run Misstep to counter Misstep. There are many, MANY ways of avoiding it. You just refuse to actually think and change your decks accordingly.
I was getting tired of this argument but I'm happy I'm not the only one that believes Mental Misstep SHOULD NOT BE BANNED! I've also see it a silly card when it only targets 1cc cards just play a few more 2cc spells, it doesnt hurt...
The problem with some of these players is that they will mulligan down to 5 cards to find *the perfect opening hand* and then they get screwed because a player defends himself with Mental Misstep. Although logically a player can also force a will that card too...
As I said the only factor Mental Misstep hurts is predictable decks... combo players look at aggro players as easy kill... toss in mental misstep and combo players NEED TO WORK! Control players are crying because Mental Misstep can counter brainstorm therefore crippling their 3 card dig... Outch! big freaking deal, it's much better then Wizards banning Brainstorm
Xantid Swarm good point on Wasteland.
As for the skullclamp... You draw 2 freaking cards, how can anybody say that is equal to a card that only targets 1cc spells!
Seriously some of you players need to really think what your saying... If we ban mental misstep then please tell me why we shouldnt ban Force of will *which hits anything for free* and Counterbalance *the lock becomes a card advantage* these two counterspells are much stronger then a 1cc target.
@Soldier: honestly I'm on the fence about this one, but your arguments make no sense.
If your on the fence then your saying your neutral, therefore your not actually buying the please ban Mental Misstep issue although you do see the card is powerful. Logically speaking or you are just saying your on the fence.
(1) you say players who don't want to play legacy with misstep should play modern? It modern lacks all those things that misstep kills (one mana rituals, top, etc.) that make legacy as opposed to modern interestinng!
No... my comment is scarsam towards the crybabies on the issue, because mental misstep is already banned.
My personal feeling towards modern; it's a failed format because it demands players to gather cards alreadly out of print and used in other formats. It's not a budget format as players hoped and wizards dont just reprint cards for the health of older DCI formats because the game is a based upon collectable princaples and since DCI and Wizards are the same entity they would also be consider fixing the format. [lets pretend the baseball commissioner decides to give the Chicago CUBS a few star players at a cheaper value so they can use them under the cap... seems odd?] (I'd often say DCI and Wizards should never work together)... [another topic]
(2) play more 2cmc spells is an argument we're seeing over and over. The point here is not that players are too stupid to realise that this is the way to build around misstep - the point is theyre arguing is that that's too restrictive a way of building - that building like that invalidates too many good options that there was no need to get rid of. Obviously this will sometimes happen when new cards are printed (e.g. Tarmogoyf) but this is a huge restriction (cutting out an entire cmc) and lowers overal diversity (unlike goyf which invalidated a lot of card options but increased diversity of deck options).
Oh, my feeling is there are too many stupid players in the game, most are stuck on staples and always *****ing about the reserve list, even though I have pointed out many times when wizards will never reprint any card that has a value over 50 dollars. (but players just dont get it)
Mental Misstep is a SILVER BULLET, the purpose of the card it to knock out a 1cc threat, it doesnt win you a game but it can sump the player, if key card is hit.
If players are crying about mental misstep therefore thay are stuck on 1cc... reduce the number of 1cc then (my logic).
(3) your point about mulligans is basically calling all the people against Mm bad players/stupid, which seems rather petty :/
No... The argument was addressed to ME that a MM can counter a spell on the first turn and it's game over for some players, Im guessing it's because players mulligans down to 5 or 4 cards... Make no sense? I do agree...
The reality is players do mulligan down to low cards, this is why Hymn is often used and why Mind Twist may never see Legacy!
(4) noone said the card was comparable to skullclamp. They said the numbers it was showing were comparable to skullclamp.
LOL... read a few pages back... somebody actually compare the banning on skullclamps popularity as a good reason to ban Mental Misstep... both cards are different, skullclamp helps you win games and Mental Misstep protects your ass.
(5) fow costs CA and countertop is a 3-mana 2-card combo with an ongoing mana investment that takes a lot of skill to play. MM only costs two life. Also, it appeared that before mm the meta was pretty balanced - neither fow nor Cb-t were warping it, but they were keeping fast combo in check (that is, allowing fast combo decks to be tier decks without allowing them to be the only tier decks). MM otoh is thoroughly killing several entire archetypes without adding any new ones.
No-no-no... Mental Misstep is advancing deck building. If this is a game of skill then players should start using deck building skills. Instead of Brainstorm maybe use Impulse.
No I compared Mental Misstep to Skullclamp in terms of it's ubiquity, my point is that currently you absolutely have to either be playing MM maindeck or sideboarded or your deck has to dodge MM and people are doing much better with the first 2 options, that is format warping and I don't see how you can argue that. This is one of the primary reasons Skullclamp got banned, because it was format warping and we are seeing Mental Misstep showing up in near Skullclamp levels of ubiquity. So no I'm saying that its format warping and comparing it to Skullclamp is just a way to get across the extent of how format warping it is.
To anyone saying to not play cmc 1 spells because MM exists, you are still succumbing to the annoyance of Misstep by not using the amazing 1 cmc spells we have access to in this format, while simultaneously asking for yourself to be killed by those decks willing to risk playing 1 cmc spells. You're still affected by the card as any of us, because you have to build your deck in such a way to play around it.
Soldier: The entire premise of Legacy is that we usually play the superior card choice, because we have access. We play duals over shocks, Bob over Phyrexian Arena, FoW over Counterspell, Bolt over Shock, etc. While many players are unwilling to quickly accept changes to the format, why would we sacrifice some of the most cost-effective spells in the game for things that are just worse? Also, Misstep is definitely not advancing deckbuilding. Sure new decks have come out of the woodworks, but most are either ports from old Extended (Hive Mind) or other formats (Stoneblade). I haven't noticed any decks as of recent that didn't previously exist in another format since Misstep was printed. All Misstep has done is let control decks secure a pretty much complete stranglehold on the format. Sounds like a healthy metagame, right?
Impulse over brainstorm? Really? I'm sorry, but those are 2 completely different cards. There is only one card with an effect like brainstorm at instant speed and that is the card, brainstorm. You don't see any other cards printed that say draw x cards, put x-1 card back on top. The closest is see beyond but that's a sorcery and is just awful compared to brainstorm.
If you refuse to play one drops in legacy, you are immediately disadvantaged on the premise that you have to open every game with a chrome mox/mox diamond/city of traitors/ancient tomb to immediately get to your 2 drops/not get time walked by saying land, go based on the premise that you don't run 1 drops. People are fine with misstep being dead because it pitches to FoW or they can *gasp* brainstorm, put misstep(s) on top, then activate a fetchland.
Even with combo nonexistant people would still play force of will. Why? Because it is the best counterspell ever printed, and is a catch all card at the cost of -1 card disadvantage, which can be easily negated by such cards as standstill and ancestral vision. Being able to counter anything when you have force + a blue card is an extremely powerful effect.
I just read a report where BELCHER was running misstep, and it helped them out tremendously. In BELCHER. That right there tells me the card is banworthy.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Impulse over brainstorm? Really? I'm sorry, but those are 2 completely different cards. There is only one card with an effect like brainstorm at instant speed and that is the card, brainstorm. You don't see any other cards printed that say draw x cards, put x-1 card back on top. The closest is see beyond but that's a sorcery and is just awful compared to brainstorm.
If you refuse to play one drops in legacy, you are immediately disadvantaged on the premise that you have to open every game with a chrome mox/mox diamond/city of traitors/ancient tomb to immediately get to your 2 drops/not get time walked by saying land, go based on the premise that you don't run 1 drops. People are fine with misstep being dead because it pitches to FoW or they can *gasp* brainstorm, put misstep(s) on top, then activate a fetchland.
Even with combo nonexistant people would still play force of will. Why? Because it is the best counterspell ever printed, and is a catch all card at the cost of -1 card disadvantage, which can be easily negated by such cards as standstill and ancestral vision. Being able to counter anything when you have force + a blue card is an extremely powerful effect.
I just read a report where BELCHER was running misstep, and it helped them out tremendously. In BELCHER. That right there tells me the card is banworthy.
Wha??
Belcher playing a card that doesn't generate mana or goblin tokens?
No, somethign is wrong here.
oh wait
it's Mental Misstep.
That card is single handily narrowing the meta and ruining legacy.
Ban Hammer please.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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To anyone saying to not play cmc 1 spells because MM exists, you are still succumbing to the annoyance of Misstep by not using the amazing 1 cmc spells we have access to in this format, while simultaneously asking for yourself to be killed by those decks willing to risk playing 1 cmc spells. You're still affected by the card as any of us, because you have to build your deck in such a way to play around it.
Soldier: The entire premise of Legacy is that we usually play the superior card choice, because we have access. We play duals over shocks, Bob over Phyrexian Arena, FoW over Counterspell, Bolt over Shock, etc. While many players are unwilling to quickly accept changes to the format, why would we sacrifice some of the most cost-effective spells in the game for things that are just worse? Also, Misstep is definitely not advancing deckbuilding. Sure new decks have come out of the woodworks, but most are either ports from old Extended (Hive Mind) or other formats (Stoneblade). I haven't noticed any decks as of recent that didn't previously exist in another format since Misstep was printed. All Misstep has done is let control decks secure a pretty much complete stranglehold on the format. Sounds like a healthy metagame, right?
Usually doesnt mean always.
I do agree; tournament legacy should play the best of the best and Mental Misstep is the best at what it does. The spell doesnt win you games and it doesnt generate alwsome card advantage over the opponent. So there is no reason to ban Mental Misstep besides of lazyness upon the other deck builders.
Also I'm standing by the argument that those supporting the Ban of Mental Misstep cannot say anything to defend Force of Will/Counterbalance from the Ban Hammer. Sorry but you guys has no argument.
Control has a stranglehold is freaking silly... control always has the upper hand before mental misstep, you just seeing it now because Jace is banned in Standard/Modern so there's only logical format to see it, and players that invested in Jace will play him... (I'm not advocating to ban Jace).
@ Barl, Artificer... yes brainstorm is brainstorm, if you want to play target number 1 then you can play target number 1, it's your choice. And it's not the refusal of playing 1 drops ~ Actually, how in blue cheese are you able to handle Countertop years ago?
I do agree; tournament legacy should play the best of the best and Mental Misstep is the best at what it does. The spell doesnt win you games and it doesnt generate alwsome card advantage over the opponent. So there is no reason to ban Mental Misstep besides of lazyness upon the other deck builders.
Also I'm standing by the argument that those supporting the Ban of Mental Misstep cannot say anything to defend Force of Will/Counterbalance from the Ban Hammer. Sorry but you guys has no argument.
Control has a stranglehold is freaking silly... control always has the upper hand before mental misstep, you just seeing it now because Jace is banned in Standard/Modern so there's only logical format to see it, and players that invested in Jace will play him... (I'm not advocating to ban Jace).
@ Barl, Artificer... yes brainstorm is brainstorm, if you want to play target number 1 then you can play target number 1, it's your choice. And it's not the refusal of playing 1 drops ~ Actually, how in blue cheese are you able to handle Countertop years ago?
Counter balance can be out raced and beat by things that are uncounterable (hey Vial!)
"you guys has no argument"
and you have no grammar abilities. We have an argument, you don't.
Mental Misstep creates a huge tempo swing in thep layers favor
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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FoW and Counterbalance are not really the same as MM, Mental Misstep is splashable, is essentially free and only takes 4 slots. Mental Misstep can go in literally any deck, neither FoW or Counterbalance can claim that. And people are adapting to MM, that's why the BW decks and Hivemind are doing well because MM doesn't affect them because they basically skip to 2 drops. This isn't interesting deckbuilding, you either play MM, dodge it or just lose pretty to much every deck.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I didn't get into Legacy to "innovate" or "adapt;" I didn't spend six months saving up to buy a thousand dollars worth of cards for a legacy deck just to be told that a new format-warping card I can't effectively play around (that didn't do anything positive for the health of legacy other than maybe make a few landstill players happy for making the deck competitive again) is fine because I can just drop another few hundred bucks to play something that dodges it.
I'll toss in another vote for Mental Misstep needing to be banned. It's a pervasive and downright broken spell and has completely invalidated a huge number of Legacy decks.
Want to play competitively with Goblins, Burn, Dredge, High Tide, Storm combo, or any other deck that relies heavily on resolving 1 CMC spells? Too bad, a single free card has invalidated your strategy.
I'm fine with Force of Will and Daze, but Mental Misstep is just down right parasitic and is wrecking diversity in the Legacy format. I'll be really hoping it gets banned come the next update. Speaking of which, when is the next B/R List update supposed to happen?
A Chalice at One does, but not MM. MM doesn't say "YOU CAN'T EVER CAST OR RESOLVE 1 MANA SPELLS LOL!", it counters ONE spell. People don't complain about Spell Snare being able to counter Goyf do they?
By your logic, we should ban Chalice of the Void or CounterTop, because it doesn't let you play 1mana spells.
No.
Chailce at 1 does not counter your t1 play on the draw for 2 life.
Misstep doesn't allow your to play 1 drops on the play because youre opponent will just go down to 18, and counter your guy.
you obviously lack a fundamental understanding of how legacy works.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
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I've heard that high tide without time spiral is pretty bad, but I might be wrong
I sort of tried to justify why not the enabler (because typically it is correct to ban the enabler), however, I think that those 2 particular creatures cause so much grief that they are worse than what they fetch
I think Iona could probably get banned as well, but if players know to pack some hate for the graveyard archetypes, Iona probably isn't going to be as insane as it was when Mystical was around
just my 2 cents
High Tide is SO much better with Frantic Search unbanned, in fact Frantic Search is actually stronger than Time Spiral from what I understand from people's testing.
Progenitus and emrakul will never get the banhammer in legacy. You can quote me on that. The degenerate cards in those scenarios are natural order and show and tell, but even those 2 cards don't deserve the banhammer.
I would looooooove for frantic search to get unbanned but that's only because I would abuse the hell out of it in high tide based combo namely solidarity since it can beat the living **** out of spring tide with ease.
Frantic search >>>>> time spiral in high tide based combo.
Mind twist is probably safe IMO. It's a lategame card; and when you spend 4 mana on a mind twist it's marginally better than hymn to tourach albeit highly splashable but the fact is when you resolve something at 4 mana you generally win the game anyway if your deck is built to be competitive. See: jace, natural order, ad nauseam, tendrils, etc. etc.
Time spiral doesn't need to get rebanned. It's a lot safer than frantic search as I just explained above. And the fact is that it's symmetrical you both get to draw 7 and you can fizzle out and yes I have seen people fizzle after casting time spiral.
But yeah misstep is literally one of the best cards in the format. I used to see blue control floating around in some numbers that weren't dominating by any means but now blue control and aggro control decks are just everywhere seemingly.
But yeah before time spiral was unbanned high tide decks still existed. People just wanted to break time spiral when it was unbanned because whenever something gets unbanned there's a mad rush to break the card typically.
Currently Playing:
Retired
It seems like this card as warped legacy to the point of your "71 cards, and four mental missteps"
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People have been doing that, and they just haven't been doing as well as if they just played Mental Misstep. The card is literally everywhere, its in basically every deck ever and the decks that are actually winning are the ones playing Mental Misstep. At the last SCG Open there were a total of 53 copies of Mental Misstep out of a possible 64 and every deck played Mental Misstep in their 75 except Zoo.
And single handily wrecking multiple decks.
When you have to play misstep to kill misstep, something is wrong.
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I won't say that I necessarily believe it should be banned in Legacy, but it seems odd that in a format that is even more powerful (with Power 9 and whatnot), Brainstorm was "too powerful" and thus restricted, but they left it alone in Legacy. Why?
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Yeah, make a deck with zero one drop's and see if it can compete in legacy. Answer: It can't.
The writing is on the wall whether you like it or not. Misstep has broken legacy, what remains to be seen is whether WotC will ban the card come Sept. 20.
SFM? Really? That card is only banworthy because mental misstep exists. Without MM, guess what SFM becomes. You literally have to force of will the removal spell on SFM and if they have another whoops you're blown out because you just forced a meaningless card. SFM is completely safe for the moment.
Vintage is a completely different animal when compared to legacy. If you have access to 4 brainstorm in that format, it is a lot easier to find restricted cards. Same with ponder. Preordain was almost restricted upon release but they decided not to.
Currently Playing:
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Sounds like someone wants to get steamrolled by Hive Mind all day long.
Most U/W Stoneforge players agree that one of the strongest spells in the deck is Misstep, as it allows them to protect Mystic while simultaneously countering on the draw. Also, no one wants the Reserve List except the collectors at this point, but Wizards put it down in writing that it would maintain it. I hate them for it, but if integrity is bad, then what's good?
To all of the people claiming Misstep is "fair", what did the card actually help anyone with? It didn't diversify the meta (it actually narrowed it), it doesn't make the game more enjoyable (yay to getting my first couple plays countered and losing....), and generally warps the format. The card is stupid, as Legacy is made to be a format where our curve is usually ~1-5 cmc. It's generally not a good idea to completely cut out an entire cmc in a format where most of our removal and some back-breaking plays fall. Misstep ruined the format in a lot of ways, and I challenge anyone to show me how Misstep is a healthy card.
Standard:
:symr:/:symg: Valakut 2.0 (Wolf Run Green)
Legacy:
:symr:/:symb: Vial Goblins
:symr:/:symg:/:symw: Zoo
:symg:/:symw:/:symr: Maverick
Commander:
:symg:/:symb:/:symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I think your list demonstrate that we still have a varied meta, with 7 differents winner in 10 tournaments. 8/11 blue decks is not very different from 8/10; The truth is blue was always the dominant color of the format and Brainstorm do lot more to help it than Misstep. That said, it's still possible to win without blue as Dredge and Aggro Loam show (and Zoo decks and W/B decks that still see success, and also Elves, Metalworker, etc).
Edit - I repeat myself but playing in an environnement without Sensei's Divining Top is very enjoyable. Before Misstep, 1/4 decks in local meta was Countertop, meaning there was always games that go to time. Lots of games against CB Top and storm was boring and/or non-interractive. By slowing the meta, MM allowed to more interactives and interesting games. And there is decks that can win almost without any 1-drop, like Loam, B/W or stompy decks.
I noticed that you mentioned Metalworker as a deck that could win the current meta. Though Metalworker is better blue in the current meta as the Red version simply falls prey to Mental Misstep.
The blue ones usually run Chalice of the Void.
Speaking of Chalice of the Void, why isn't everyone running this? In a meta filled with 1cc spells, why not punish it?
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So we should also ban Ponder, Gifts Ungiven, and Burning Wish since they are all restricted in Vintage
Maybe the modern format isnt a bad idea... maybe those that dont want Mental Misstep should drop Legacy and play Modern.
I was getting tired of this argument but I'm happy I'm not the only one that believes Mental Misstep SHOULD NOT BE BANNED! I've also see it a silly card when it only targets 1cc cards just play a few more 2cc spells, it doesnt hurt...
The problem with some of these players is that they will mulligan down to 5 cards to find *the perfect opening hand* and then they get screwed because a player defends himself with Mental Misstep. Although logically a player can also force a will that card too...
As I said the only factor Mental Misstep hurts is predictable decks... combo players look at aggro players as easy kill... toss in mental misstep and combo players NEED TO WORK! Control players are crying because Mental Misstep can counter brainstorm therefore crippling their 3 card dig... Outch! big freaking deal, it's much better then Wizards banning Brainstorm
Xantid Swarm good point on Wasteland.
As for the skullclamp... You draw 2 freaking cards, how can anybody say that is equal to a card that only targets 1cc spells!
Seriously some of you players need to really think what your saying... If we ban mental misstep then please tell me why we shouldnt ban Force of will *which hits anything for free* and Counterbalance *the lock becomes a card advantage* these two counterspells are much stronger then a 1cc target.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
If your on the fence then your saying your neutral, therefore your not actually buying the please ban Mental Misstep issue although you do see the card is powerful. Logically speaking or you are just saying your on the fence.
No... my comment is scarsam towards the crybabies on the issue, because mental misstep is already banned.
My personal feeling towards modern; it's a failed format because it demands players to gather cards alreadly out of print and used in other formats. It's not a budget format as players hoped and wizards dont just reprint cards for the health of older DCI formats because the game is a based upon collectable princaples and since DCI and Wizards are the same entity they would also be consider fixing the format. [lets pretend the baseball commissioner decides to give the Chicago CUBS a few star players at a cheaper value so they can use them under the cap... seems odd?] (I'd often say DCI and Wizards should never work together)... [another topic]
Oh, my feeling is there are too many stupid players in the game, most are stuck on staples and always *****ing about the reserve list, even though I have pointed out many times when wizards will never reprint any card that has a value over 50 dollars. (but players just dont get it)
Mental Misstep is a SILVER BULLET, the purpose of the card it to knock out a 1cc threat, it doesnt win you a game but it can sump the player, if key card is hit.
If players are crying about mental misstep therefore thay are stuck on 1cc... reduce the number of 1cc then (my logic).
No... The argument was addressed to ME that a MM can counter a spell on the first turn and it's game over for some players, Im guessing it's because players mulligans down to 5 or 4 cards... Make no sense? I do agree...
The reality is players do mulligan down to low cards, this is why Hymn is often used and why Mind Twist may never see Legacy!
LOL... read a few pages back... somebody actually compare the banning on skullclamps popularity as a good reason to ban Mental Misstep... both cards are different, skullclamp helps you win games and Mental Misstep protects your ass.
No-no-no... Mental Misstep is advancing deck building. If this is a game of skill then players should start using deck building skills. Instead of Brainstorm maybe use Impulse.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Soldier: The entire premise of Legacy is that we usually play the superior card choice, because we have access. We play duals over shocks, Bob over Phyrexian Arena, FoW over Counterspell, Bolt over Shock, etc. While many players are unwilling to quickly accept changes to the format, why would we sacrifice some of the most cost-effective spells in the game for things that are just worse? Also, Misstep is definitely not advancing deckbuilding. Sure new decks have come out of the woodworks, but most are either ports from old Extended (Hive Mind) or other formats (Stoneblade). I haven't noticed any decks as of recent that didn't previously exist in another format since Misstep was printed. All Misstep has done is let control decks secure a pretty much complete stranglehold on the format. Sounds like a healthy metagame, right?
Standard:
:symr:/:symg: Valakut 2.0 (Wolf Run Green)
Legacy:
:symr:/:symb: Vial Goblins
:symr:/:symg:/:symw: Zoo
:symg:/:symw:/:symr: Maverick
Commander:
:symg:/:symb:/:symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain
If you refuse to play one drops in legacy, you are immediately disadvantaged on the premise that you have to open every game with a chrome mox/mox diamond/city of traitors/ancient tomb to immediately get to your 2 drops/not get time walked by saying land, go based on the premise that you don't run 1 drops. People are fine with misstep being dead because it pitches to FoW or they can *gasp* brainstorm, put misstep(s) on top, then activate a fetchland.
Even with combo nonexistant people would still play force of will. Why? Because it is the best counterspell ever printed, and is a catch all card at the cost of -1 card disadvantage, which can be easily negated by such cards as standstill and ancestral vision. Being able to counter anything when you have force + a blue card is an extremely powerful effect.
I just read a report where BELCHER was running misstep, and it helped them out tremendously. In BELCHER. That right there tells me the card is banworthy.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Wha??
Belcher playing a card that doesn't generate mana or goblin tokens?
No, somethign is wrong here.
oh wait
it's Mental Misstep.
That card is single handily narrowing the meta and ruining legacy.
Ban Hammer please.
scumbag
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Usually doesnt mean always.
I do agree; tournament legacy should play the best of the best and Mental Misstep is the best at what it does. The spell doesnt win you games and it doesnt generate alwsome card advantage over the opponent. So there is no reason to ban Mental Misstep besides of lazyness upon the other deck builders.
Also I'm standing by the argument that those supporting the Ban of Mental Misstep cannot say anything to defend Force of Will/Counterbalance from the Ban Hammer. Sorry but you guys has no argument.
Control has a stranglehold is freaking silly... control always has the upper hand before mental misstep, you just seeing it now because Jace is banned in Standard/Modern so there's only logical format to see it, and players that invested in Jace will play him... (I'm not advocating to ban Jace).
@ Barl, Artificer... yes brainstorm is brainstorm, if you want to play target number 1 then you can play target number 1, it's your choice. And it's not the refusal of playing 1 drops ~ Actually, how in blue cheese are you able to handle Countertop years ago?
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Counter balance can be out raced and beat by things that are uncounterable (hey Vial!)
"you guys has no argument"
and you have no grammar abilities. We have an argument, you don't.
Mental Misstep creates a huge tempo swing in thep layers favor
scumbag
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I didn't get into Legacy to "innovate" or "adapt;" I didn't spend six months saving up to buy a thousand dollars worth of cards for a legacy deck just to be told that a new format-warping card I can't effectively play around (that didn't do anything positive for the health of legacy other than maybe make a few landstill players happy for making the deck competitive again) is fine because I can just drop another few hundred bucks to play something that dodges it.
That's all I'm saying.
Want to play competitively with Goblins, Burn, Dredge, High Tide, Storm combo, or any other deck that relies heavily on resolving 1 CMC spells? Too bad, a single free card has invalidated your strategy.
I'm fine with Force of Will and Daze, but Mental Misstep is just down right parasitic and is wrecking diversity in the Legacy format. I'll be really hoping it gets banned come the next update. Speaking of which, when is the next B/R List update supposed to happen?
Lol, not understanding what a Strawman is much?
No.
Chailce at 1 does not counter your t1 play on the draw for 2 life.
Misstep doesn't allow your to play 1 drops on the play because youre opponent will just go down to 18, and counter your guy.
you obviously lack a fundamental understanding of how legacy works.
scumbag
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