The mana cost is the fundamental difference.
However Cruel tutor just sucks... it is sorcery speed and puts the card on top of your deck. All the while costing 3 mana... that is just plain bad and silly as hell.
Vampiric is good because you can use it at the end of your opponents first turn and go balistic on t2.
Grim Tutor is a whole mana, black mana I might add, ahead of demonic and it also costs 3 life. It isn't a bad card however it is a little too expensive to work the in the storm decks that would really love em, like ANT. (I think at least)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Should have draw a card on it, still only playable in casual or limited. I mean it loses to liquify"
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Life totals matter with ad nauseam. What's funny about imperial seal is that it is WORSE than mystical tutor in storm combo. Sure I guess seal can grab artifact mana and lands, but it costs 2 life. Imperial seal could be unbanned IMO and it wouldn't really do much in the format because who owns the physical card imperial seal not to mention the price of the card is very prohibitive (there are 2 eBay listings at the moment, one auction one BiN. The auction has passed 300 USD and the BiN is almost 400. Magiccards.info has the card listed only at 500). It would only really affect MTGO legacy where it costs approximately 3.5 tix. Having both it and mystical tutor legal at the same time might be problematic because then ANT would be running 8 tutors and it would be insane.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor are all tier 1 tutors because they are cheap, splashable, and they tutor anything. Tier 1 tutors are banned in Legacy and since those are tier 1 tutors, they are banned. The jump from 2 to 3 mana and the life plus double black makes Grim Tutor not quite tier 1.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I would argue that tier one tutor is a very subjective term. Demonic is probably the one Tier one tutor of the 3, and rightfully not allowed.
But the other 2 are a life cost and a card cost for a tutor. Also realize that infernal tutor, while strictly worse than demonic, is still probably stronger in most list that would use a black tutor than the 1 cost tutor since most tutor strategies require you to pitch your hand for LED right now anyways.
I would also argue that stoneforge mystic, while restricted to what it can search, is entirely a tier one tutor because it has further applications past just fishing a card and it is totally legal and somewhat dominant lately.
In other news
Me and my pals have been doing a little testing, and I can say without batting an eye, black vice should come of this list. It is very much a strong card that people will play, but hardly degenerate as it used to be. There are still strategies that will win faster and there are plenty of ways to hate out a vice strategy, along with it being mostly a dead topdeck. I think it would be a great thing to take off the list since most people really do want to run the card in an aggro list and it really wouldnt change the meta that much.
WotC seems to consider them Tier 1 tutors and I think that is probably correct, they're all unrestricted tutors that are splashable and cheap and have little to no downside and that is what makes them tier 1. I'd hate to see any of the unrestricted tutors unbanned because then the meta would devolve into a bunch of combo decks fueled by powerful tutors. I think it is reasonable to say that none of the aforementioned tutors will be unbanned in Legacy and for pretty good reasons.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Is legacy not dominated by tier one tutors right now that at the least are perhaps combo themselves.
Green suns zenith makes worldy tutor or eldamiras call seem like piles of garbage. And while GSZ may have a restriction you can build you whole deck around it so that it is virutally a non issue, as it can already get you creatures of various sorts and even a land. It is also a heavy enabler of the Natural order Progeneitus list, which is a combo of sorts.
Stoneforge mystic not only is a tutor, it is a cheat into play, a cost reducer, and a body all in one. The fact that it's limited to equipment does not change what you can do with it, since there are a bunch of creature equips now, mortapod is removal, you can grab a paradise mantle and make her a mana dork, etc. It may not be "combo" in the truest sense but it surely goes past synergy.
Brainstorm/ponder/preordain are not tutors in the truest sense, but all of them can function as such very often and a lot of the time set you up with cards for multiple turns. All are heavily played and usually are fantastic combo enablers.
I am almost challenged to figure out what vampric tutor would enable or what would run it. Even in ANT is probably subpar to infernal tutor and is highly susceptible to mental misstep and the like.
Is legacy not dominated by tier one tutors right now that at the least are perhaps combo themselves.
No because there are currently no tier one tutors in Legacy because they are banned. The current tutors are all tier two at best because they are all limited and require more building around. If you want to play GSZ you have to play green creatures, if you want to play SFM you have to play equipment, if you want to play Infernal Tutor you need LED. With Vampiric/Demonic Tutor and Imperial Seal, none of these things are true. They don't have restrictions in terms of color, targets, or anything and that's what makes them tier 1. Unbanning any of these tutors would be a mistake and would likely warp the format horribly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
No because there are currently no tier one tutors in Legacy because they are banned. The current tutors are all tier two at best because they are all limited and require more building around. If you want to play GSZ you have to play green creatures, if you want to play SFM you have to play equipment, if you want to play Infernal Tutor you need LED. With Vampiric/Demonic Tutor and Imperial Seal, none of these things are true. They don't have restrictions in terms of color, targets, or anything and that's what makes them tier 1. Unbanning any of these tutors would be a mistake and would likely warp the format horribly.
Bingo!
Another reason these are considered Teir 1 is because they do not require you to reveal your tutor target.
Could you imagine a line of play that went turn 1 Underground Sea Vampiric Tutor at EOT.
What deck could you possibley be playing against? Turn 2 could be Ancient Tomb into Show & Tell into Hive Mind. Who know what card he tutored for, it could be the Hive Mind, it could be the Tomb, heck, it could even be the FoW in his hand to protect the combo.
It if were ANT? The Ritual he needed? LED? It could be EITHER of these 2 decks.
I don't even want to mention Belcher.
That line of play seems so easy, yet it's completely devastating. Yes, we have MM stop it, but so do they. We also have Nix, but you don't hear me heralding we can handle Lotus because we currently play with LED.
The thing about Vamp and Imperial, more so with imperial, is it screws up fetches. Granted its not an issue turn 1 but past that you start getting in trouble with having to crack early etc.
I guess my definition of Tier one is very different than what people are using. To me a Tier one tutor is not specifically based on what it can tutor for, but more so what the whole package does. I know that some of the tutors have limitations, but at the same time that is a deck building consideration, not a play consideration.
To me Stoneforge in a dedicated slot is far more devastating than Vampiric in a random deck splashing it. Grim tutor by the definition everyone uses above is tier one, and honestly i cant think of a single person who would use it in legacy at this point. Most people would consider it trash even in a deck that runs black very heavily like ANT, and that does not make for a tier one card.
The thing about Vamp and Imperial, more so with imperial, is it screws up fetches. Granted its not an issue turn 1 but past that you start getting in trouble with having to crack early etc.
I guess my definition of Tier one is very different than what people are using. To me a Tier one tutor is not specifically based on what it can tutor for, but more so what the whole package does. I know that some of the tutors have limitations, but at the same time that is a deck building consideration, not a play consideration.
To me Stoneforge in a dedicated slot is far more devastating than Vampiric in a random deck splashing it. Grim tutor by the definition everyone uses above is tier one, and honestly i cant think of a single person who would use it in legacy at this point. Most people would consider it trash even in a deck that runs black very heavily like ANT, and that does not make for a tier one card.
They defined "tier one tutor" as "low mana cost, fetches anything, mana unrestrictive".
Grim Tutor has a mana cost of 3, and has BB in its cost. It's nowhere near Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor or Demonic Tutor.
Second, if they banned Mystical Tutor for being too powerful and dominating the meta with combo, there is no way in hell they would unban Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal (which are basically strictly better).
Second, if they banned Mystical Tutor for being too powerful and dominating the meta with combo, there is no way in hell they would unban Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal (which are basically strictly better).
While I'm against unbanning Imperial Seal, I do have to disagree with calling it "strictly better" than Mystical Tutor. More than anything, the issue here is the fact that Imperial is Sorcery speed, while Mystical was an instant. That instant speed thing is huge; being able to cast it EOT or during your upkeep, in response to things like Chalice of the Void, or even in response to your own triggers for cards like Dark Confidant or Counterbalance can be huge.
Anyone considering the unbanning of imperial seal (vampiric tutor) and the other tier 1 tutors has clearly never played with these cards. The constancy these offer to combo related decks is insane.
As Dyne pointed out, not only do they search up combo pieces, but hate, removal, etc. And the concerns with "put on top of your library" being "slow" enough to work in legacy are false. Last time I checked brainstorm and sensei's divining top were still highly played enough that any deck wanting to use these tutors would easily have instant speed draw available to them. Worst case scenario they have to continue functioning in the main phase with ponder, preordain, night's whisper, etc.
The "splashability" of these tutors is another reason they're so good, just as one of tarmogoyf's best attributes is his splashability. He'd be far less played if he had double color casting cost (:symg::symg:. :symg::symw:, etc.).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Probably not. It's not one sided, is easily dealt with, and doesn't just win right there. it's an excellent enabler, but you'd have to ban Sneak Attack, and Natural Order with it, which is completely unnecessary.
Probably not. It's not one sided, is easily dealt with, and doesn't just win right there. it's an excellent enabler, but you'd have to ban Sneak Attack, and Natural Order with it, which is completely unnecessary.
No...the difference is that Sneak Attack and Natural order are 4 mana costs cards. The color its in is not protected by counters as much as show and tell.
I believe if hive mind continues to make half of the top 8 appearances, it will be banned.
No...the difference is that Sneak Attack and Natural order are 4 mana costs cards. The color its in is not protected by counters as much as show and tell.
I believe if hive mind continues to make half of the top 8 appearances, it will be banned.
Sure it's "combo-y" but the main threat is the hive mind, not show and tell. It's been around for ages and it seems really, really stupid to ban a card that isn't a tutor as almost all of the cards added to the ban list over the last few years have been tutor effects. Also, show and tell is used in other decks (sure not placing as well). IMO the card to ban would be hive mind, but sadly I have a feeling like intuition would get the axe first as it fits the recent "bad" status of tutoring.
Banning show and tell would also make Emrakul unplayable in legacy, and would bury the hatchet that wizards drove into reanimator when they nixed mystical (RIP).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
You don't ban the combo pieces, you ban what allows enables the combo to be degenerate.
WotC learned their lesson when they tried to stop Necro decks back in the day. You don't ban the combos that Necro enables rather you ban Necro itself because as an enabler it is so powerful on its own that you can just shove the next best combo in a Necro shell and still dominate.
Think of it this way:
Survival-Vengevine/Ooze decks dominated because the enabler was too good. They could ban Vengevine and Necrotic Ooze to allow the bad toolbox Survival decks to still exist, but now they have set the precedence to ban any problematic creature that interacts with Survival. The banlist has to be as short as possible so they ban Survival instead of whatever number of creatures that get printed in the future.
You don't ban the combo pieces, you ban what allows enables the combo to be degenerate.
WotC learned their lesson when they tried to stop Necro decks back in the day. You don't ban the combos that Necro enables rather you ban Necro itself because as an enabler it is so powerful on its own that you can just shove the next best combo in a Necro shell and still dominate.
Think of it this way:
Survival-Vengevine/Ooze decks dominated because the enabler was too good. They could ban Vengevine and Necrotic Ooze to allow the bad toolbox Survival decks to still exist, but now they have set the precedence to ban any problematic creature that interacts with Survival. The banlist has to be as short as possible so they ban Survival instead of whatever number of creatures that get printed in the future.
Hive Mind and Intuition are the enablers for this deck. The deck isn't Show and Emrakul, it's hive mind. The "degeneratenesss" of the deck comes from winning without passing priority, from HIVE MIND. Show and Tell emrakul/progenitus, etc. is a deck, and it has never been dominate or degenerate. The only thing that makes this deck remotely degenerate is hive mind. With grim monolith and other mana acceleration, hive mind would still be very playable with show and tell banned. Slightly less powerful, perhaps. or the deck might find a new second win con or attack pattern. The fact remains that show and tell is just as much an enabler for this deck as grim monolith, sol lands, and intuition. Hive Mind is the degenerate part of the deck and IMO the only piece even worth considering banning simply because any other bans would require multiple bans, or un-necessarily affect many other decks for no reason.
Show and tell gets better with every set that WotC prints. Emrakul and hive mind are the beginning. What's next? Some big dork costed at 10 mana that reads "You can cast cards from your graveyard and if a card would be put into your graveyard, exile it instead."? Show and tell should be banned. The hive mind deck is extremely powerful. When people run angel's grace for the mirror or against the deck, something is wrong because that shows the deck is dominant enough to warrant a banning. Show and tell is literally the glue that holds the hive mind deck together as well. What would they do without SnT? Hardcasting hive mind is plan B. They always want to sneak hive mind into play with SnT because then they usually have mana for daze and other stuff and it's also absurd in that they can cast turn 1 grim monolith off of a sol land, turn 2 show and tell, okay you countered show and tell. Next turn, hardcast hive mind. You have another counter? Okay, I force/pact of negation it. It resolves. Cast this sweet pact. Did I win? Okay. There's also the fact that you need to answer both combo's. So you have angel's grace to stop hive mind? I'll plop down this emrakul. Sweet angel's grace except not.
Sneak attack and natural order aren't ever going to get banned. You can quote me on this. Unless they print a green creature that says "You win the game" when it enters the battlefield. Both cost 4 or more mana notice how I say 4 or more because sneak attack is a 5 mana card in disguise. You need 4 to cast it and at least one red to activate it to make it useful.
Anyone who thinks that hive mind doesn't warrant a banning, test the MU. The deck is extremely resilient and can beat literally ANY deck in the format. Also, the deck isn't that hard to pilot you could get into legacy tomorrow and pilot the deck to success it isn't that hard. You resolve show and tell, then win.
Whoever said imperial seal is strictly better than mystical tutor is dead wrong. Sorceries < Instants. If imperial seal was an instant sure it would be almost strictly better than mystical tutor but the fact remains that it costs 2 precious life.
Grim tutor is worse than burning wish. I'll never play grim tutor in legacy storm combo. It's only decent in vintage because they can find yawg's win, a. call, or what have you with it and those cards are tons more degenerate than what is available in legacy right now. And there's also the fact that intuition is probably stronger than grim tutor and look it's an instant. Also only costs a single U.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
It looks to me like if wizards were to ban anything in Hive Mind combo, it would be Intuition for being the tutor card that fetches just about anything in the deck.
That, or Brainstorm just to power down every deck at once running blue (except merfolk)
I agree with Barl. We are finally reaching a point in Magic where power creep has reached a threshold that it now interacts with many of these old unfair cards. As Wizards tries to print new flashy things to appeal to the players, they have to print things that are worth talking about. Nobody talks about Llanowar Elves, everyone talks about the 15/15 with Timewalk stapled on. As they continue to print more of these cards, cards like Show and Tell (and Survival) will (would) only continue to get more busted.
That said, I don't know it the Hive Mind deck is the reason to ban Show and Tell. It hardly has put up "dominating numbers". Sure it has topped just about every event since the deck came into being, but as I recall Merfolk last year was rampant for about the same period. I feel Hive Mind is a deck that can eventually be hated out, but the meta needs to adapt do it. I don't think it's wrong for there to be a good, resilient, combo deck.
Wizards does make cards with previous thoughts in mind. If we are already having to deal with a flying spaghetti monster, I doubt that Wizards is going is going to make a 30/30 haste, trample, hexproof, indestructible, blah blah, etc. creature. Emrakul was made as an extremely flavorful creature in a set noted for having some of the most powerful creatures ever in Magic lore. The thing has a higher cmc than B.F.M. and removed its necessity for colored mana... cmon.
Enablers are always looking to get more busted, but the reason why Hive Mind is so good is that it packs multiple strategies into one deck, adding resiliency. NO Rug is another great example of a deck that packs multiple strategies to increase power. By itself Show and Tell is completely tolerable and easy to beat, it's the fact that it's now coupled with an enchantment that says "you lose when I cast one of my many 0 cmc spells" is the issue.
However Cruel tutor just sucks... it is sorcery speed and puts the card on top of your deck. All the while costing 3 mana... that is just plain bad and silly as hell.
Vampiric is good because you can use it at the end of your opponents first turn and go balistic on t2.
Grim Tutor is a whole mana, black mana I might add, ahead of demonic and it also costs 3 life. It isn't a bad card however it is a little too expensive to work the in the storm decks that would really love em, like ANT. (I think at least)
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
Currently Playing:
Retired
But the other 2 are a life cost and a card cost for a tutor. Also realize that infernal tutor, while strictly worse than demonic, is still probably stronger in most list that would use a black tutor than the 1 cost tutor since most tutor strategies require you to pitch your hand for LED right now anyways.
I would also argue that stoneforge mystic, while restricted to what it can search, is entirely a tier one tutor because it has further applications past just fishing a card and it is totally legal and somewhat dominant lately.
In other news
Me and my pals have been doing a little testing, and I can say without batting an eye, black vice should come of this list. It is very much a strong card that people will play, but hardly degenerate as it used to be. There are still strategies that will win faster and there are plenty of ways to hate out a vice strategy, along with it being mostly a dead topdeck. I think it would be a great thing to take off the list since most people really do want to run the card in an aggro list and it really wouldnt change the meta that much.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
Giving them free regin over that speed bump is just asking for combo to take over.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Green suns zenith makes worldy tutor or eldamiras call seem like piles of garbage. And while GSZ may have a restriction you can build you whole deck around it so that it is virutally a non issue, as it can already get you creatures of various sorts and even a land. It is also a heavy enabler of the Natural order Progeneitus list, which is a combo of sorts.
Stoneforge mystic not only is a tutor, it is a cheat into play, a cost reducer, and a body all in one. The fact that it's limited to equipment does not change what you can do with it, since there are a bunch of creature equips now, mortapod is removal, you can grab a paradise mantle and make her a mana dork, etc. It may not be "combo" in the truest sense but it surely goes past synergy.
Brainstorm/ponder/preordain are not tutors in the truest sense, but all of them can function as such very often and a lot of the time set you up with cards for multiple turns. All are heavily played and usually are fantastic combo enablers.
I am almost challenged to figure out what vampric tutor would enable or what would run it. Even in ANT is probably subpar to infernal tutor and is highly susceptible to mental misstep and the like.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
No because there are currently no tier one tutors in Legacy because they are banned. The current tutors are all tier two at best because they are all limited and require more building around. If you want to play GSZ you have to play green creatures, if you want to play SFM you have to play equipment, if you want to play Infernal Tutor you need LED. With Vampiric/Demonic Tutor and Imperial Seal, none of these things are true. They don't have restrictions in terms of color, targets, or anything and that's what makes them tier 1. Unbanning any of these tutors would be a mistake and would likely warp the format horribly.
Bingo!
Another reason these are considered Teir 1 is because they do not require you to reveal your tutor target.
Could you imagine a line of play that went turn 1 Underground Sea Vampiric Tutor at EOT.
What deck could you possibley be playing against? Turn 2 could be Ancient Tomb into Show & Tell into Hive Mind. Who know what card he tutored for, it could be the Hive Mind, it could be the Tomb, heck, it could even be the FoW in his hand to protect the combo.
It if were ANT? The Ritual he needed? LED? It could be EITHER of these 2 decks.
I don't even want to mention Belcher.
That line of play seems so easy, yet it's completely devastating. Yes, we have MM stop it, but so do they. We also have Nix, but you don't hear me heralding we can handle Lotus because we currently play with LED.
Seriously.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I think Intuition is a pretty damn good tutor. Instant speed and adds it directly to your hand for only 3 mana.
I guess my definition of Tier one is very different than what people are using. To me a Tier one tutor is not specifically based on what it can tutor for, but more so what the whole package does. I know that some of the tutors have limitations, but at the same time that is a deck building consideration, not a play consideration.
To me Stoneforge in a dedicated slot is far more devastating than Vampiric in a random deck splashing it. Grim tutor by the definition everyone uses above is tier one, and honestly i cant think of a single person who would use it in legacy at this point. Most people would consider it trash even in a deck that runs black very heavily like ANT, and that does not make for a tier one card.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
They defined "tier one tutor" as "low mana cost, fetches anything, mana unrestrictive".
Grim Tutor has a mana cost of 3, and has BB in its cost. It's nowhere near Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor or Demonic Tutor.
Second, if they banned Mystical Tutor for being too powerful and dominating the meta with combo, there is no way in hell they would unban Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal (which are basically strictly better).
While I'm against unbanning Imperial Seal, I do have to disagree with calling it "strictly better" than Mystical Tutor. More than anything, the issue here is the fact that Imperial is Sorcery speed, while Mystical was an instant. That instant speed thing is huge; being able to cast it EOT or during your upkeep, in response to things like Chalice of the Void, or even in response to your own triggers for cards like Dark Confidant or Counterbalance can be huge.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
As Dyne pointed out, not only do they search up combo pieces, but hate, removal, etc. And the concerns with "put on top of your library" being "slow" enough to work in legacy are false. Last time I checked brainstorm and sensei's divining top were still highly played enough that any deck wanting to use these tutors would easily have instant speed draw available to them. Worst case scenario they have to continue functioning in the main phase with ponder, preordain, night's whisper, etc.
The "splashability" of these tutors is another reason they're so good, just as one of tarmogoyf's best attributes is his splashability. He'd be far less played if he had double color casting cost (:symg::symg:. :symg::symw:, etc.).
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Standard:
:symr:/:symg: Valakut 2.0 (Wolf Run Green)
Legacy:
:symr:/:symb: Vial Goblins
:symr:/:symg:/:symw: Zoo
:symg:/:symw:/:symr: Maverick
Commander:
:symg:/:symb:/:symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain
No...the difference is that Sneak Attack and Natural order are 4 mana costs cards. The color its in is not protected by counters as much as show and tell.
I believe if hive mind continues to make half of the top 8 appearances, it will be banned.
Buy List
Best Online Store for your MTG needs!!!
Sure it's "combo-y" but the main threat is the hive mind, not show and tell. It's been around for ages and it seems really, really stupid to ban a card that isn't a tutor as almost all of the cards added to the ban list over the last few years have been tutor effects. Also, show and tell is used in other decks (sure not placing as well). IMO the card to ban would be hive mind, but sadly I have a feeling like intuition would get the axe first as it fits the recent "bad" status of tutoring.
Banning show and tell would also make Emrakul unplayable in legacy, and would bury the hatchet that wizards drove into reanimator when they nixed mystical (RIP).
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
WotC learned their lesson when they tried to stop Necro decks back in the day. You don't ban the combos that Necro enables rather you ban Necro itself because as an enabler it is so powerful on its own that you can just shove the next best combo in a Necro shell and still dominate.
Think of it this way:
Survival-Vengevine/Ooze decks dominated because the enabler was too good. They could ban Vengevine and Necrotic Ooze to allow the bad toolbox Survival decks to still exist, but now they have set the precedence to ban any problematic creature that interacts with Survival. The banlist has to be as short as possible so they ban Survival instead of whatever number of creatures that get printed in the future.
Hive Mind and Intuition are the enablers for this deck. The deck isn't Show and Emrakul, it's hive mind. The "degeneratenesss" of the deck comes from winning without passing priority, from HIVE MIND. Show and Tell emrakul/progenitus, etc. is a deck, and it has never been dominate or degenerate. The only thing that makes this deck remotely degenerate is hive mind. With grim monolith and other mana acceleration, hive mind would still be very playable with show and tell banned. Slightly less powerful, perhaps. or the deck might find a new second win con or attack pattern. The fact remains that show and tell is just as much an enabler for this deck as grim monolith, sol lands, and intuition. Hive Mind is the degenerate part of the deck and IMO the only piece even worth considering banning simply because any other bans would require multiple bans, or un-necessarily affect many other decks for no reason.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Sneak attack and natural order aren't ever going to get banned. You can quote me on this. Unless they print a green creature that says "You win the game" when it enters the battlefield. Both cost 4 or more mana notice how I say 4 or more because sneak attack is a 5 mana card in disguise. You need 4 to cast it and at least one red to activate it to make it useful.
Anyone who thinks that hive mind doesn't warrant a banning, test the MU. The deck is extremely resilient and can beat literally ANY deck in the format. Also, the deck isn't that hard to pilot you could get into legacy tomorrow and pilot the deck to success it isn't that hard. You resolve show and tell, then win.
Whoever said imperial seal is strictly better than mystical tutor is dead wrong. Sorceries < Instants. If imperial seal was an instant sure it would be almost strictly better than mystical tutor but the fact remains that it costs 2 precious life.
Grim tutor is worse than burning wish. I'll never play grim tutor in legacy storm combo. It's only decent in vintage because they can find yawg's win, a. call, or what have you with it and those cards are tons more degenerate than what is available in legacy right now. And there's also the fact that intuition is probably stronger than grim tutor and look it's an instant. Also only costs a single U.
Currently Playing:
Retired
That, or Brainstorm just to power down every deck at once running blue (except merfolk)
That said, I don't know it the Hive Mind deck is the reason to ban Show and Tell. It hardly has put up "dominating numbers". Sure it has topped just about every event since the deck came into being, but as I recall Merfolk last year was rampant for about the same period. I feel Hive Mind is a deck that can eventually be hated out, but the meta needs to adapt do it. I don't think it's wrong for there to be a good, resilient, combo deck.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Enablers are always looking to get more busted, but the reason why Hive Mind is so good is that it packs multiple strategies into one deck, adding resiliency. NO Rug is another great example of a deck that packs multiple strategies to increase power. By itself Show and Tell is completely tolerable and easy to beat, it's the fact that it's now coupled with an enchantment that says "you lose when I cast one of my many 0 cmc spells" is the issue.
Standard:
:symr:/:symg: Valakut 2.0 (Wolf Run Green)
Legacy:
:symr:/:symb: Vial Goblins
:symr:/:symg:/:symw: Zoo
:symg:/:symw:/:symr: Maverick
Commander:
:symg:/:symb:/:symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain