They should just bring back Extended because Frontier will invariably suffer from the same issues as Modern--an ever-growing card pool and not enough copies of older cards in players' hands.
IMO that would be a better option, another rotating format, just with a larger card pool than standard. Would a 7 year rotation like it used to be way back when work now?
I think it used to be 6; they could make it the last 5-6 years with a 4-block rotation every two years in order to strike a balance between differentiating the format and keeping it fresh while also keeping some degree of continuity.
Either way, the essential problems to be solved are lack of playability of recent rotated standard staples and lack of accessibility of older cards; bringing back a rotating extended format solves both, another eternal format arguably solves neither.
They should just bring back Extended because Frontier will invariably suffer from the same issues as Modern--an ever-growing card pool and not enough copies of older cards in players' hands.
IMO that would be a better option, another rotating format, just with a larger card pool than standard. Would a 7 year rotation like it used to be way back when work now?
that's still an appealing alternative tbh, doesn't rotate as fast as standard, so cards don't lose value as quickly. Not having as old of a card pool as modern means you won't have to hunt down old, expensive cards
I think it used to be 6; they could make it the last 5-6 years with a 4-block rotation every two years in order to strike a balance between differentiating the format and keeping it fresh while also keeping some degree of continuity.
Either way, the essential problems to be solved are lack of playability of recent rotated standard staples and lack of accessibility of older cards; bringing back a rotating extended format solves both, another eternal format arguably solves neither.
There are only 2 eternal formats, legacy and vintage. Modern is a constructed format on WotC's own page, and frontier would be as well. You start at magic origins because fetches are AIDS and it seems heavily likely that fetches will never be standard legal again. Fetches are the most powerful cards they have printed since power 9 and company hands down with what they have enabled over their tenure. Not to mention let's keep the delve cards out; the larger the card pool, the better delve cards get. DTT and cruise don't need to grace any format other than vintage ever again.
Extended was tried. It really was a great format until they started rotating it, then it started to die slowly after that. It would be the same now. It would be played only when people needed to play it to try to make it to the pro tour and that's it. That's horrible. It would be only worse now with the way that design and development has made the game.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I would start it at m13 and just ban fetchlands. I think theros/rtr have a lot of important things for balancing the format as well as things to add checks and balances to the format. For example, adding a 4 mana wrath to the format is a huge deal since we are so unlikely to get another in the near future. In addition, adding rest in peace and anger of the gods adds some nice checks and balances to the graveyard, something heavily lacking in the format at the moment. Adding rtr also fixes the terribly unbalanced mana in frontier, instead of having 5 different half cycles every pair gets their shocklands.
This. In fact, the format they play at my LGS back home is exactly this, M13 forward, only banned cards are KTK fetches. It's cheap to build (to my knowledge, Voice of Resurgence is the most expensive card in the pool), has tons of possible deck options and, most importantly, it's fun.
They just confirmed fetches for MM17 which means they likely wont be in standard for a long time, or ever again. This leads me to believe that if a Frontier-style format ever becomes a reality, the khans fetches will be skipped over as well. It is also a good idea to skip the busted delve cards and Rally the Ancestors.
This will leave us with Collected Company being the most problematic card to deal with, which isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things as the cardpool will be much larger than it was during CC dominance in standard. We have Mardu Vehicles, GB constrictor, Aetherworks Marvel, and even Jeskai Saheeli to add to the mix now
But please, leave the fetchlands out of this new format.
Why do you think that fetchlands being in Modern Masters means that they won't ever be in Standard again?
They just confirmed fetches for MM17 which means they likely wont be in standard for a long time, or ever again. This leads me to believe that if a Frontier-style format ever becomes a reality, the khans fetches will be skipped over as well. It is also a good idea to skip the busted delve cards and Rally the Ancestors.
This will leave us with Collected Company being the most problematic card to deal with, which isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things as the cardpool will be much larger than it was during CC dominance in standard. We have Mardu Vehicles, GB constrictor, Aetherworks Marvel, and even Jeskai Saheeli to add to the mix now
But please, leave the fetchlands out of this new format.
The two land types that we may never get a full cycle of in frontier are definitely pain lands and fetches, so given the MM2017 reprint I'm now bending more on just keeping the fetches out of frontier for consistency sake. However, I wouldn't do it until we get lands from Amonket since those should be allied. To be frank, the arguments for fetches are mostly people just going "their good so keep them" and price fear mongering that largely spawned because of WoTC not reprinting something everyone knows is basically a requirement in modern deck building. However, that is ultimately the problem: Wizards can print all the janky lands they want in standard, but non-rotating formats always evolve eventually to have a best land cycle and failing to reprint the best land cycle continuously will result in an overly expensive and restrictive mana base.
To top things off, no one "likes" opening lands in the same way as opening something like a Tarmogoyf or Liliana of the Veil. The sensation when opening a high value land is more like "thank goodness I got one more thorn out of my side", whereas the later is "Tarmogoyf?! Huzzah!" That's why I'm bigger on frontier at the moment: people can basically buy up the lands that are still in print or have recently been in print and get the worst part of Magic deck building over with at a reasonable price.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Frontier should start at M15. Tarkir block is the source of sexy mechanics like morph and delve, which add a lot of variety to the game.
Instead of banning problematic cards, answers to them should be printed in future sets. Wizards have already printed cards that hate nonbasic lands, like Thalia, Heretic Cathar. If they release a few more cards that specifically punish fetchlands, players will eventually have to consider alternatives.
There are only 2 eternal formats, legacy and vintage. Modern is a constructed format on WotC's own page, and frontier would be as well. You start at magic origins because fetches are AIDS and it seems heavily likely that fetches will never be standard legal again. Fetches are the most powerful cards they have printed since power 9 and company hands down with what they have enabled over their tenure. Not to mention let's keep the delve cards out; the larger the card pool, the better delve cards get. DTT and cruise don't need to grace any format other than vintage ever again.
Extended was tried. It really was a great format until they started rotating it, then it started to die slowly after that. It would be the same now. It would be played only when people needed to play it to try to make it to the pro tour and that's it. That's horrible. It would be only worse now with the way that design and development has made the game.
Modern is an "eternal" format; it never rotates--i.e. the modern-frame cards can be played "forever" and the card pool will continue to grow. "Frontier" would be an eternal format in the same sense and would have the same reprint, pricing, and other problems that Modern has 5-10 years from now except it will be Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy instead of Tarmogoyf and Liliana of the Veil.
Extended was a format for 15+ years and survived multiple rotations; the rotations were in fact what keep it from getting stagnant. The rotations didn't kill Extended--Wizards killed it by changing it to a four-year format and then no longer supporting it and adopting another non-rotating format (Modern), which now suffers from the same issues with accessibility as Legacy and Vintage before it.
I fail to see how adopting yet another non-rotating format--essentially just taking Modern and pushing the starting point 10 years into the future--solves much of anything. Looked at another way, if Frontier supplants Modern the way Modern supplanted Extended because Modern is inaccessible, you've essentially just taken Modern and "rotated out" the pre-M15 cards anyway.
Let's just skip the nonsense and acknowledge what's actually needed: a rotating format with a 6-8 year time horizon (i.e. they need to just bring back pre-2010-style Extended) . This would be great because it would remain fresh and reasonably accessible to new players while allowing somewhat more enfranchised players (but not so enfranchised that they're playing Modern, Legacy, or Vintage) to keep playing their standard cards that have zero application in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage.
There are only 2 eternal formats, legacy and vintage. Modern is a constructed format on WotC's own page, and frontier would be as well.
Modern is an "eternal" format; it never rotates--i.e. the modern-frame cards can be played "forever" and the card pool will continue to grow. "Frontier" would be an eternal format in the same sense
The problem here is a difference of definitions used by Wizards and the Community. Wizards uses "Eternal" to mean 'all magic cards are legal(- ban list)' while the community uses "Eternal" to mean 'doesn't rotate' this is the only problem you are having here. Either look past each other's use of the word or get in stupid arguments about which definition is 'MORE' correct.
Extended was a format for 15+ years and survived multiple rotations; the rotations were in fact what keep it from getting stagnant. The rotations didn't kill Extended--Wizards killed it by no longer supporting it and adopting another non-rotating format (Modern).
This is a nice belief, but it isn't supported by evidence. Wizards has stated that Extended got the ax because no one liked it(no one being a hyperbole very very few people liked it). You can try and argue that they caused this by cutting the format in half but, again you have no evidence.
Neither. I'd start at Return to Ravnica. Don't need to relive a stale Standard+ format where the best decks are already decided. Playing against Collected Company and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy for years to come with some minor updates is going to become trite very fast. As it is, there's no real diversity here other than it being new - if Pro players latch on and everyone starts playing facsimiles of Top 8 decks, we'll see exactly how fun this starting point is. If the people who started this were actually concerned about a great format and not just moving left over inventory from a recently rotated Standard, this "format" would have had a different starting point.
I voted "M15," but once I read through the thread, I'm a little more torn, and agree with those who say it should start earlier, and with those who say Origins. As stated above, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy would be too much with starting at Origins. Maybe the best place is to start with the two-block format and Battle for Zendikar, skipping Origins. Or else start much earlier like RTR. However, with fetches being in MM 2017, I don't think they'll ever be in standard again, so keeping Kahns out of the format makes sense. Shocks will be back I'm sure, but having the dual land identity will be much less meaningful without fetches.
This would mean that Wizards would have no need to acknowledge or support a Frontier format until a block or two beyond Amonkhet.
I voted "M15," but once I read through the thread, I'm a little more torn, and agree with those who say it should start earlier, and with those who say Origins. As stated above, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy would be too much with starting at Origins. Maybe the best place is to start with the two-block format and Battle for Zendikar, skipping Origins. Or else start much earlier like RTR. However, with fetches being in MM 2017, I don't think they'll ever be in standard again, so keeping Kahns out of the format makes sense. Shocks will be back I'm sure, but having the dual land identity will be much less meaningful without fetches.
This would mean that Wizards would have no need to acknowledge or support a Frontier format until a block or two beyond Amonkhet.
I'm in agreement with this assessment myself. The main problem frontier is facing is having only half of the fetches and pain lands thanks to the starting point, which makes the manabase favoring the enemy lands. Once Amonket comes out we should have a new set of allied lands to work with so that will be the point to probably consider shoring things up on the manabase side. I don't believe origins to be a bad start point, the only issue is the set was short lived and the flip walkers are going to be rare just like the 8th and 9th edition urza lands, only without the support of the older legacy printings.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They should just bring back Extended because Frontier will invariably suffer from the same issues as Modern--an ever-growing card pool and not enough copies of older cards in players' hands.
IMO that would be a better option, another rotating format, just with a larger card pool than standard. Would a 7 year rotation like it used to be way back when work now?
I think it used to be 6; they could make it the last 5-6 years with a 4-block rotation every two years in order to strike a balance between differentiating the format and keeping it fresh while also keeping some degree of continuity.
Either way, the essential problems to be solved are lack of playability of recent rotated standard staples and lack of accessibility of older cards; bringing back a rotating extended format solves both, another eternal format arguably solves neither.
I would make it so the current Standard sets are not in the new Extended, having it rotate at the same time. It would give a home to the older cards while keeping it from suffering the same issues the old Extended had.
Origins, but not becoming an official format for another year, maybe 2.
My reasoning is that Magic Duals is a trial run to how the format will shape up. (Even if their card limits won't be included.)
Fetches aren't inherently bad. I do agree that their current form shouldn't be included. I would like an upgraded Terramorphic Expanse, puts it into play untapped. That would be nice and it would fit into their current direction of having more reliance on basics. Plus a completed Tainted cycle for all colors would be nice.
Origins, but not becoming an official format for another year, maybe 2.
My reasoning is that Magic Duals is a trial run to how the format will shape up. (Even if their card limits won't be included.)
Fetches aren't inherently bad. I do agree that their current form shouldn't be included. I would like an upgraded Terramorphic Expanse, puts it into play untapped. That would be nice and it would fit into their current direction of having more reliance on basics. Plus a completed Tainted cycle for all colors would be nice.
I'm not against fetches if the format only had BFZ lands with two basic land types, but if they are printing more cards with land types as they are currently doing it's for the best we probably don't have them. The only issue with this is that I'm very against card prices being over 20 usd per land, and the only way Scalding Tarn will ever see a 20 usd price point is to get a standard printing or cheaper supplementary printing. I wouldn't mind seeing a fetch land that does something like Myriad Landscape without the mana cost, only for specific basic lands and one land goes to your hand while the other comes into play. That kind of fetch encourages playing with basics and would help prevent people from going the way of modern and playing too many non-basics.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I think it used to be 6; they could make it the last 5-6 years with a 4-block rotation every two years in order to strike a balance between differentiating the format and keeping it fresh while also keeping some degree of continuity.
Either way, the essential problems to be solved are lack of playability of recent rotated standard staples and lack of accessibility of older cards; bringing back a rotating extended format solves both, another eternal format arguably solves neither.
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StaffExtended was tried. It really was a great format until they started rotating it, then it started to die slowly after that. It would be the same now. It would be played only when people needed to play it to try to make it to the pro tour and that's it. That's horrible. It would be only worse now with the way that design and development has made the game.
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This. In fact, the format they play at my LGS back home is exactly this, M13 forward, only banned cards are KTK fetches. It's cheap to build (to my knowledge, Voice of Resurgence is the most expensive card in the pool), has tons of possible deck options and, most importantly, it's fun.
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
Why do you think that fetchlands being in Modern Masters means that they won't ever be in Standard again?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The two land types that we may never get a full cycle of in frontier are definitely pain lands and fetches, so given the MM2017 reprint I'm now bending more on just keeping the fetches out of frontier for consistency sake. However, I wouldn't do it until we get lands from Amonket since those should be allied. To be frank, the arguments for fetches are mostly people just going "their good so keep them" and price fear mongering that largely spawned because of WoTC not reprinting something everyone knows is basically a requirement in modern deck building. However, that is ultimately the problem: Wizards can print all the janky lands they want in standard, but non-rotating formats always evolve eventually to have a best land cycle and failing to reprint the best land cycle continuously will result in an overly expensive and restrictive mana base.
To top things off, no one "likes" opening lands in the same way as opening something like a Tarmogoyf or Liliana of the Veil. The sensation when opening a high value land is more like "thank goodness I got one more thorn out of my side", whereas the later is "Tarmogoyf?! Huzzah!" That's why I'm bigger on frontier at the moment: people can basically buy up the lands that are still in print or have recently been in print and get the worst part of Magic deck building over with at a reasonable price.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Instead of banning problematic cards, answers to them should be printed in future sets. Wizards have already printed cards that hate nonbasic lands, like Thalia, Heretic Cathar. If they release a few more cards that specifically punish fetchlands, players will eventually have to consider alternatives.
-- The Gatewatch
Modern is an "eternal" format; it never rotates--i.e. the modern-frame cards can be played "forever" and the card pool will continue to grow. "Frontier" would be an eternal format in the same sense and would have the same reprint, pricing, and other problems that Modern has 5-10 years from now except it will be Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy instead of Tarmogoyf and Liliana of the Veil.
Extended was a format for 15+ years and survived multiple rotations; the rotations were in fact what keep it from getting stagnant. The rotations didn't kill Extended--Wizards killed it by changing it to a four-year format and then no longer supporting it and adopting another non-rotating format (Modern), which now suffers from the same issues with accessibility as Legacy and Vintage before it.
I fail to see how adopting yet another non-rotating format--essentially just taking Modern and pushing the starting point 10 years into the future--solves much of anything. Looked at another way, if Frontier supplants Modern the way Modern supplanted Extended because Modern is inaccessible, you've essentially just taken Modern and "rotated out" the pre-M15 cards anyway.
Let's just skip the nonsense and acknowledge what's actually needed: a rotating format with a 6-8 year time horizon (i.e. they need to just bring back pre-2010-style Extended) . This would be great because it would remain fresh and reasonably accessible to new players while allowing somewhat more enfranchised players (but not so enfranchised that they're playing Modern, Legacy, or Vintage) to keep playing their standard cards that have zero application in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage.
This is a nice belief, but it isn't supported by evidence. Wizards has stated that Extended got the ax because no one liked it(no one being a hyperbole very very few people liked it). You can try and argue that they caused this by cutting the format in half but, again you have no evidence.
(Also known as Xenphire)
This would mean that Wizards would have no need to acknowledge or support a Frontier format until a block or two beyond Amonkhet.
I'm in agreement with this assessment myself. The main problem frontier is facing is having only half of the fetches and pain lands thanks to the starting point, which makes the manabase favoring the enemy lands. Once Amonket comes out we should have a new set of allied lands to work with so that will be the point to probably consider shoring things up on the manabase side. I don't believe origins to be a bad start point, the only issue is the set was short lived and the flip walkers are going to be rare just like the 8th and 9th edition urza lands, only without the support of the older legacy printings.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I would make it so the current Standard sets are not in the new Extended, having it rotate at the same time. It would give a home to the older cards while keeping it from suffering the same issues the old Extended had.
My reasoning is that Magic Duals is a trial run to how the format will shape up. (Even if their card limits won't be included.)
Fetches aren't inherently bad. I do agree that their current form shouldn't be included. I would like an upgraded Terramorphic Expanse, puts it into play untapped. That would be nice and it would fit into their current direction of having more reliance on basics. Plus a completed Tainted cycle for all colors would be nice.
I'm not against fetches if the format only had BFZ lands with two basic land types, but if they are printing more cards with land types as they are currently doing it's for the best we probably don't have them. The only issue with this is that I'm very against card prices being over 20 usd per land, and the only way Scalding Tarn will ever see a 20 usd price point is to get a standard printing or cheaper supplementary printing. I wouldn't mind seeing a fetch land that does something like Myriad Landscape without the mana cost, only for specific basic lands and one land goes to your hand while the other comes into play. That kind of fetch encourages playing with basics and would help prevent people from going the way of modern and playing too many non-basics.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits