Origins is honestly the best start point. Fetches need to go as does delve. I love Rabblemaster but the cleanest way to handle the format is to start at Origins.
I would think Origins and up because it simplified things. If you include M15 - others will ask why not M14? or M12? Also, I believe Origins was the last Magic basic set.
What is the problem with fetch lands I don't see where they are bad. I think it needs to be M15, but i would love to see M14 for the every 10 year thing.
Some people have this visceral hatred of reliable mana and shuffling. I don't get it either.
I feel as if frontier started at Theros we would see a large emergence of mono black decks like we did in the black summer of that standard. We would have premium removal ex.downfall, push, grasp, premium discard ex. Thought seize, duress, despise, transgress and creatures that curve up to grey merchant, along with the amazing sideboard options and planeswalker that we have in Liliana. I think it would turn the format very linear and boring.
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BMono Black Eldrazi Control B BGPanharmonicon Elves BG
Fetches make every deck better, and they will also always be valuable. Banning them doesn't make many specific decks worse than others relative to one another, but often cuts the price of the average competitive deck in half.
I always thought Frontier was just an excuse to have a format where "all your favorite Khans cards" were still relevant. (Khans was a hugely popular block).
Il be honest without Khans or M15 i wouldnt even be interested in the format.
I feel as if frontier started at Theros we would see a large emergence of mono black decks like we did in the black summer of that standard. We would have premium removal ex.downfall, push, grasp, premium discard ex. Thought seize, duress, despise, transgress and creatures that curve up to grey merchant, along with the amazing sideboard options and planeswalker that we have in Liliana. I think it would turn the format very linear and boring.
Black would lack the powerful finishers of Desecration Demon and Pack Rat, so it wouldn't be that good. With premium removal Garys wont trigger for that much either.
What is the problem with fetch lands I don't see where they are bad. I think it needs to be M15, but i would love to see M14 for the every 10 year thing.
Some people have this visceral hatred of reliable mana and shuffling. I don't get it either.
Shuffling takes time. If every game on average cracks 5 fetches, that's a few minutes of precious gametime taken just by searching -> shuffling. Do that times three for a match, and it's not unlikely to end up with over 20% of gametime just taken by search and shuffle for fetchlands.
As for the reliable mana; some prefer it if a manabase requires more thought. That you can't just slap a 4-colour-deck together by stuffing it with fetches. I'm neutral on that point myself, I can see both sides of the argument.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
What is the problem with fetch lands I don't see where they are bad. I think it needs to be M15, but i would love to see M14 for the every 10 year thing.
Some people have this visceral hatred of reliable mana and shuffling. I don't get it either.
Shuffling takes time. If every game on average cracks 5 fetches, that's a few minutes of precious gametime taken just by searching -> shuffling. Do that times three for a match, and it's not unlikely to end up with over 20% of gametime just taken by search and shuffle for fetchlands.
As for the reliable mana; some prefer it if a manabase requires more thought. That you can't just slap a 4-colour-deck together by stuffing it with fetches. I'm neutral on that point myself, I can see both sides of the argument.
Correctly fetching with battle lands does require a lot of thought though. You need to plan multiple turn ahead in order to get all of your colors online and minimize the number of tapped lands.
For OCD reasons, I would go with origins. Origins is the divisor of two eras, being the last core set (and one that is not numered) and the precursor of the 2 set per block format. M15 border change was minimal, and starting on "15" feels weird and a lot more arbitrary. Origins actually presented a change in how the sets are released and feels a bit less arbirtrary. The reference point actually has some reasoning behing it rather than just a small visual change.
As for the fetchland hate... we all know that they will be reprinted in standard again, so being against it is simply pointless, they will be back over and over, and banning something on-release (when the enemy fetches finally return to standard) doesn't seems very productive for wizards.
And about being too similar to standard, October we will have the rotation that will take a good chunk of the current standard out, and I don't think that, if the format would become sanctioned, it would be anytime before it anyway. And as the time passes things will become more and more different.
Origins even gives a lead to a name for the format, "Original" format
I think that if we are going to build a format like this we need to ignore arbitrary things like when the card frame changed, or when design philosophies got better. We need to have core mechanical reasons and functional differences. Because of this, I think Theros/M14 would be the correct place to start since RTR is a clear too far milestone, Starting with khans or M15 would just feel like Standard+. The largest cardpool would give more building potential and allow a higher power level.
I think Magic Origins is probably the best starting point from a R&D perspective. I'm not happy with that, as I do have some fetches, but I can see it going down that route.
Wizards has already slowed the format by
* Removing 1-mana mana dorks. M15 still has Elvish Mystic.
* Mark Rosewater does not want fetchlands to come back into Standard. He doesn't have the final say, but he can still influence the decision. The cost of many eternal decks is partly due to fetchland requirements.
* Emphasis on creature fights
* Continued weakening of noncreature spells. If Shock is the new 1-mana, 2 damage baseline, then it opens up space for x/3 creatures.
* Emphasis on interactivity and the long game
* EDIT: Fewer cards that require "shuffling," like Fetchlands. I have seen more cards with effects like "look/draw top x cards. Pick 1-X, then put the rest in the bottom of your library or graveyard in any order." So, rather than shuffling the deck, which in some cases consumes a lot of sanctioned game time, players move cards arounds in a simpler manner.
If Wizards sanctions Frontier with Magic Origins, Wizards could conceivably created a "fixed' fetchland later, where the penalty for activating its effect is much steeper than the current fetchlands, which would limit 3+ color "good stuff" decks.
I think it should be M15 onwards, that way there is at least lightning strike as removal and burn, there are 1 mana mana dorks, and fetching isn't as detrimental as most people say imo.
Fetches slowing everything down is only dependaple on the players itself, instead of eot it can be done during the opponents turn, and if you need the fetched land in your own turn you can just say: fetch ... land, play your spell, say go and finish fetching during opponents turn.
If they new format would start at Origins it would be just a little bigger than standard and because of the power creep it would mean that only actual standard decks are viable. Bfz would even be worse of a starting point imo, that would just be boring imo and I wouldn't play the format at all for the first few years.
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Modern UWG Spirits
Standard UW Control RBU Midrange
Commander UBG Tasigur
Pauper GW Slivers
They just confirmed fetches for MM17 which means they likely wont be in standard for a long time, or ever again. This leads me to believe that if a Frontier-style format ever becomes a reality, the khans fetches will be skipped over as well. It is also a good idea to skip the busted delve cards and Rally the Ancestors.
This will leave us with Collected Company being the most problematic card to deal with, which isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things as the cardpool will be much larger than it was during CC dominance in standard. We have Mardu Vehicles, GB constrictor, Aetherworks Marvel, and even Jeskai Saheeli to add to the mix now
But please, leave the fetchlands out of this new format.
Yeah, this kinda puts a nail in the format to me. If (speculation on my part as noted elsewhere previously) they dont want fetches in the new format, and if Khan's is on a different level (it is) then they would start post Khans.
Thats simply not a format I want to play right now. I'll see if I can shift my non-played (CoCos and the Commands) Khans stuff at this point, because I dont see it in a post modern Wizards format.
I feel that M15/Khans block would make the format more interesting, fetches, 3 colour cards like siege rhino and sweet clan/dragon mechanics.
I feel there are some good benefits for starting at Origins rather than M15 no, not fetches makes the format cheaper and makes it harder for 3 colour decks. Plus calling the format Origins sounds okay to me. This way the format would be something other than "modern-lite"
They should just bring back Extended because Frontier will invariably suffer from the same issues as Modern--an ever-growing card pool and not enough copies of older cards in players' hands.
They should just bring back Extended because Frontier will invariably suffer from the same issues as Modern--an ever-growing card pool and not enough copies of older cards in players' hands.
IMO that would be a better option, another rotating format, just with a larger card pool than standard. Would a 7 year rotation like it used to be way back when work now?
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I would think Origins and up because it simplified things. If you include M15 - others will ask why not M14? or M12? Also, I believe Origins was the last Magic basic set.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers
Some people have this visceral hatred of reliable mana and shuffling. I don't get it either.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
BGPanharmonicon Elves BG
Fetches make every deck better, and they will also always be valuable. Banning them doesn't make many specific decks worse than others relative to one another, but often cuts the price of the average competitive deck in half.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
Il be honest without Khans or M15 i wouldnt even be interested in the format.
Black would lack the powerful finishers of Desecration Demon and Pack Rat, so it wouldn't be that good. With premium removal Garys wont trigger for that much either.
Shuffling takes time. If every game on average cracks 5 fetches, that's a few minutes of precious gametime taken just by searching -> shuffling. Do that times three for a match, and it's not unlikely to end up with over 20% of gametime just taken by search and shuffle for fetchlands.
As for the reliable mana; some prefer it if a manabase requires more thought. That you can't just slap a 4-colour-deck together by stuffing it with fetches. I'm neutral on that point myself, I can see both sides of the argument.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Correctly fetching with battle lands does require a lot of thought though. You need to plan multiple turn ahead in order to get all of your colors online and minimize the number of tapped lands.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
As for the fetchland hate... we all know that they will be reprinted in standard again, so being against it is simply pointless, they will be back over and over, and banning something on-release (when the enemy fetches finally return to standard) doesn't seems very productive for wizards.
And about being too similar to standard, October we will have the rotation that will take a good chunk of the current standard out, and I don't think that, if the format would become sanctioned, it would be anytime before it anyway. And as the time passes things will become more and more different.
Origins even gives a lead to a name for the format, "Original" format
Wizards has already slowed the format by
* Removing 1-mana mana dorks. M15 still has Elvish Mystic.
* Mark Rosewater does not want fetchlands to come back into Standard. He doesn't have the final say, but he can still influence the decision. The cost of many eternal decks is partly due to fetchland requirements.
* Emphasis on creature fights
* Continued weakening of noncreature spells. If Shock is the new 1-mana, 2 damage baseline, then it opens up space for x/3 creatures.
* Emphasis on interactivity and the long game
* EDIT: Fewer cards that require "shuffling," like Fetchlands. I have seen more cards with effects like "look/draw top x cards. Pick 1-X, then put the rest in the bottom of your library or graveyard in any order." So, rather than shuffling the deck, which in some cases consumes a lot of sanctioned game time, players move cards arounds in a simpler manner.
If Wizards sanctions Frontier with Magic Origins, Wizards could conceivably created a "fixed' fetchland later, where the penalty for activating its effect is much steeper than the current fetchlands, which would limit 3+ color "good stuff" decks.
Fetches slowing everything down is only dependaple on the players itself, instead of eot it can be done during the opponents turn, and if you need the fetched land in your own turn you can just say: fetch ... land, play your spell, say go and finish fetching during opponents turn.
If they new format would start at Origins it would be just a little bigger than standard and because of the power creep it would mean that only actual standard decks are viable. Bfz would even be worse of a starting point imo, that would just be boring imo and I wouldn't play the format at all for the first few years.
UWG Spirits
Standard
UW Control
RBU Midrange
Commander
UBG Tasigur
Pauper
GW Slivers
They just confirmed fetches for MM17 which means they likely wont be in standard for a long time, or ever again. This leads me to believe that if a Frontier-style format ever becomes a reality, the khans fetches will be skipped over as well. It is also a good idea to skip the busted delve cards and Rally the Ancestors.
This will leave us with Collected Company being the most problematic card to deal with, which isn't too bad in the grand scheme of things as the cardpool will be much larger than it was during CC dominance in standard. We have Mardu Vehicles, GB constrictor, Aetherworks Marvel, and even Jeskai Saheeli to add to the mix now
But please, leave the fetchlands out of this new format.
Thats simply not a format I want to play right now. I'll see if I can shift my non-played (CoCos and the Commands) Khans stuff at this point, because I dont see it in a post modern Wizards format.
Spirits
I feel there are some good benefits for starting at Origins rather than M15 no, not fetches makes the format cheaper and makes it harder for 3 colour decks. Plus calling the format Origins sounds okay to me. This way the format would be something other than "modern-lite"
They should just bring back Extended because Frontier will invariably suffer from the same issues as Modern--an ever-growing card pool and not enough copies of older cards in players' hands.
IMO that would be a better option, another rotating format, just with a larger card pool than standard. Would a 7 year rotation like it used to be way back when work now?