Some might remember way back before Modern was announced as an official format.
Support for the old Extended format was waning, and the playerbase imagined a format that would be called Overextended, including sets from Onslaught onward.
Once Modern became official, the start was set by Wizards from 8th Edition/Mirrodin onward. Ahead of what players anticipated.
That choice by Wizards is the precedent for which this thread is created, and presumably the rationale for any interest it may garner.
Might we expect Wizards to do similarly with Frontier? Frontier was conceived with the new card frame in mind as an intuitive step, including m15 and Khans of Tarkir block.
Wizards may very well jump ahead to Magic Origins as the starting point. It may not even officially be called Frontier. (As with the departure from Overextended and Elder Dragon Highlander.)
There are also several members of the Magic community who feel strongly one way or another on where the format should begin once official.
Remember: This is not a thread for the specifics of what should be banned in Frontier's current state of metagame as the format is currently known. Please take such discussions to the appropriate thread.
Here we are going to look at the broader implications of what each starting point means.
Provided is a poll, and a list of 10 common arguments for each starting point.
Arguments for each include the following.
M15 Start
M15 is when the new card template was introduced, thus should visibly mark the beginning of the format.
The template marker has a precedent in Modern, being that 8th edition is when the earlier template change occurred. Consistency!
Larger card pool! Fetch lands! Delve cards! Siege Rhino! Collected Company! The allied color commands! It's totally worth having the extra cards even if it might mean a few bans down the line.
Four color mana bases thanks to fetchlands and BFZ duals is fun!
Khans of Tarkir has rich mechanical depth. Morph, Delve, +1/+1 counters out the wazoo!
M15 cards and Khans of Tarkir cards will retain and accrue greater value.
Players can dust off and adapt their old standard decks!
Magic Origins adds just one additional set over the current standard breadth. What's the point of a new format if it only adds one set over the standard card pool?
Magic Origins is a fitting place for a format to originate from. It's all in the name! When you tell a newbie Modern begins with 8th Edition, they are sure to ask why. Explaining "because newer templates" is tedious.
Explaining that supplementary set reprints are the exception is even more tedious. This also brings to point how arbitrary it is to begin strictly with a new template. It's short-sighted style over substance.
There was a distinct change in R&D's set design philosophy from where Magic Origins began. Khans of Tarkir is openly considered mechanically congested by MaRo. Let's start cleaner and simpler.
Khans of Tarkir block features cards that are banned in Modern and Legacy, and restricted in Vintage. This is a big red flag. Do we really want to begin a new format with bans?
M15 is a mess (Hornet Queen color pie violation, anyone?) when compared to the elegance of Magic Origins, which truly set in motion our current era that has found its stride with Kaladesh block.
Magic Origins adds just one additional set over the current standard breadth. Easier assimilated into the BFZ-on pool. This future-proofs relevance of new sets, encouraging purchase beyond big splash singles like Fatal Push for Modern.
The better cards in Khans of Tarkir block that aren't banworthy already have homes and appeal in Modern decks. It's the last block of the Modern era. Its card pool belongs where it's most easily absorbed.
In a new design era where hate cards like Blood Moon will not see print, fetch lands are innately overpowered and trivialize manabases. Building a 4 color deck is too easy.
The dominance of Khans of Tarkir cards means less cards from new sets will be viable in Frontier, which hurts sales of newer sets if they aren't all as powerful as Aether Reborn. Stop power creep!
Occassional powerful cards like Emrakul, the Promised End and Fatal Push are easier for the format to absorb when not fueled by fetch lands. Fetches shrink choices and diminish the challenge of setting up delirium + revolt!
Feel free to add additional arguments or discuss those listed.
This is a topic I see frequently coming out from the woodwork in discussions about the format, and I think it would be a good idea to have a thread where the subject can be focused on.
I've posted this in the Frontier forum as opposed to the General forum so that it may more easily be seen by those whom it may concern.
This format has momentum, but that momentum would surely be greater if more people came to agree and/or convince each other on where the format should begin.
Please remember to keep the discussions civil.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
While I would love to keep monastery swift spear in my mono red aggro frontier deck, I think it would be healthier for the entire format to get rid of fetchlands and siege rhino. Start at Origins.
I also like the idea of having an "evergreen" set while other things rotate out. Like magic origins could be that evergreen set and every two years the format rotates. that would certainly make for an interesting format.
I have an annoyance with fecthlands, especially in paper magic. It adds loading screens to my game, always cracking and shuffling. Plus, starting at origins would taper off the power level of fatal push a bit.
I would start it at m13 and just ban fetchlands. I think theros/rtr have a lot of important things for balancing the format as well as things to add checks and balances to the format. For example, adding a 4 mana wrath to the format is a huge deal since we are so unlikely to get another in the near future. In addition, adding rest in peace and anger of the gods adds some nice checks and balances to the graveyard, something heavily lacking in the format at the moment. Adding rtr also fixes the terribly unbalanced mana in frontier, instead of having 5 different half cycles every pair gets their shocklands.
Origins is honestly the best start point. Fetches need to go as does delve. I love Rabblemaster but the cleanest way to handle the format is to start at Origins.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Khan's is on another level to what we have had since. If you want to have a really distinct experience as the selling point, you would start at Origins, and snap ban Fetch's if they released them in a later set.
That way, Frontier would serve a purpose in providing a different experience from Modern because otherwise I think there is enough power in Khan's to warp the format towards it considerably.
Now, that said, I like playing good cards, and I like good Mana, so I would rather Khan's stick around so I can abuse Fetches and Delve. :]
Thats the thing, I'm not partial to the express purposes forwarded by some people on this site. It will not stay cheap, so cross that off, the cards are not going to be reprinted that matter (CoCo and such, oh look another Khans card) and so what is it Frontier provides?
If looking for a new experience, Origins would be the way to go.
I used to be on the M14 train, but I feel like it makes Frontier just little modern. Khans has a lot of unused cards which would show up in frontier, but without the dominance that devotion and gods would bring. Origins just makes Frontier into standard, I think a larger design space would be good.
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
I feel they should have started with Theros block, but M15 is a fairly good start point given the situation they have over in Japan.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What is the problem with fetch lands I don't see where they are bad. I think it needs to be M15, but i would love to see M14 for the every 10 year thing.
I think the reason people want to avoid fetches, is that Maro is on record as being against it. If/When the next format is announced or adopted, it gives people a head start on that by also avoiding fetches.
Neither. Theros is the best place to start. Frames were always misleading anyways because supplement sets aren't modern legal, and the format should go as far back as possible within reason. RTR has shocks and I don't think anyone wants another fetch>shock format. So that's def too far back. But Theros has lots on interesting cards and archtypes it adds to round out the format. M14 is hit or miss because there aren't many interesting cards besides the walkers.
I think that if the goal is for people to be interested in frontier at all, it needs to feel like a different format. Starting at origins would just make it feel like more standard. M15 and KTK are the way to go. Fetches do not need to be banned and neither does delve. They were never really that busted in standard anyway. People want more life out of their cards. Standard seems a bit stale at the moment and not everyone can buy into modern. Frontier I think can be the cure for that, given that if Wizards picks it up they don't nerf it too much. If they start out with bannings, I can't see many people being interested.
RTR has the uncounterable spells, Deathrite Shaman, shocks.. it is warping and expensive.
I think it should start at Theros and pre-emptively ban fetches. Without fetches, delve becomes harder to abuse, we're not constantly shuffling, and the format has a lower price. Also, it steers the format away from 4-color good stuff.
Honest question that may be obvious but isn't to me. Why is this focused on starting on a core set? Especially when the core set is 'linked' to a block that won't be part of frontier? M15 was 'part' of Theros and Origins was 'part' of Tarkir, so why are we starting on these core sets and not at the start of an actual block? Is this just because Modern started on 8th? Which made plenty of sense then because core sets weren't viewed as part of any block but were their own independent rotation, cycling when the next one came along.
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Support for the old Extended format was waning, and the playerbase imagined a format that would be called Overextended, including sets from Onslaught onward.
Once Modern became official, the start was set by Wizards from 8th Edition/Mirrodin onward. Ahead of what players anticipated.
That choice by Wizards is the precedent for which this thread is created, and presumably the rationale for any interest it may garner.
Might we expect Wizards to do similarly with Frontier? Frontier was conceived with the new card frame in mind as an intuitive step, including m15 and Khans of Tarkir block.
Wizards may very well jump ahead to Magic Origins as the starting point. It may not even officially be called Frontier. (As with the departure from Overextended and Elder Dragon Highlander.)
There are also several members of the Magic community who feel strongly one way or another on where the format should begin once official.
Remember: This is not a thread for the specifics of what should be banned in Frontier's current state of metagame as the format is currently known. Please take such discussions to the appropriate thread.
Here we are going to look at the broader implications of what each starting point means.
Provided is a poll, and a list of 10 common arguments for each starting point.
Arguments for each include the following.
M15 Start
Magic Origins start
Feel free to add additional arguments or discuss those listed.
This is a topic I see frequently coming out from the woodwork in discussions about the format, and I think it would be a good idea to have a thread where the subject can be focused on.
I've posted this in the Frontier forum as opposed to the General forum so that it may more easily be seen by those whom it may concern.
This format has momentum, but that momentum would surely be greater if more people came to agree and/or convince each other on where the format should begin.
Please remember to keep the discussions civil.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
I also like the idea of having an "evergreen" set while other things rotate out. Like magic origins could be that evergreen set and every two years the format rotates. that would certainly make for an interesting format.
I have an annoyance with fecthlands, especially in paper magic. It adds loading screens to my game, always cracking and shuffling. Plus, starting at origins would taper off the power level of fatal push a bit.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
That way, Frontier would serve a purpose in providing a different experience from Modern because otherwise I think there is enough power in Khan's to warp the format towards it considerably.
Now, that said, I like playing good cards, and I like good Mana, so I would rather Khan's stick around so I can abuse Fetches and Delve. :]
Spirits
If looking for a new experience, Origins would be the way to go.
Spirits
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
M15, khans are okay, Fetches are not.
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
I also think that the fetches being legal in frontier is part if the allure.
I think it should start at Theros and pre-emptively ban fetches. Without fetches, delve becomes harder to abuse, we're not constantly shuffling, and the format has a lower price. Also, it steers the format away from 4-color good stuff.
Really, I just want a format where Prophet of Kruphix doesn't die to Lightning Bolt.
One argument for M15's inclusion should be Elvish Mystic. Green should have some turn 1 ramp. Fatal Push will control it anyway.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers