Personally i d ban
Tc dtt
Fetches
Coco
jace
Copter
Pretty much this
Again, MTGGoldfish has TC not in the top 50, DTT is 25th, CoCo at 3rd, JVP at 4th, and Copter at 2nd. So, TC and DTT seem like knee-jerk reactions.
I know, and probably with Fetches Banned delve would be even more difficult to exploit... But dtt and tv could become problematic on the long run. Preventive ban lol
Only if they start to print decent cantrips again.
My local is going to host a Frontier FNM shortly. I absolutely love that before the format is even a thing, people are talking about banning cards. My god. This is why Modern got bad.
This is my feeling exactly. We have a format with no preconceptions and nothing truly overpowered, lets see how it plays out before we start changing it.
Please note, as in the OF this thread, this is here to serve a much more than just about banlists;
Bans, unbans, and all things related to a banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Frontier finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
We opted to include mentions of bans here for two reasons: to head off people attempting to create individual threads everything someone thought a card was too strong, and so that this thread was already set up and structured in case WOTC or another independent RC picks up this format. Feel free to use this as a place of discussion for health and direction of the format, two important topics given how new it is (among other things).
[quote from="MikePemulis »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/frontier/769571-state-of-frontier-bans-format-health-and-more?comment=19"]My local is going to host a Frontier FNM shortly. I absolutely love that before the format is even a thing, people are talking about banning cards. My god. This is why Modern got bad.
This is my feeling exactly. We have a format with no preconceptions and nothing truly overpowered, lets see how it plays out before we start changing it.
Please note, as in the OF this thread, this is here to serve a much more than just about banlists;
Bans, unbans, and all things related to a banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Frontier finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Gotcha.
Speaking of archetypes, how strong is dredge in the current setup? The creatures for it are there, but it feels like getting enough into the yard to make them worthwhile is tough.
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
I'd like to see fetches banned prematurely because of four reasons:
1. It would make being multicolor have actual downsides, as opposed to the other eternal formats where goign 3 colors is basically free
2. It would lessen the shuffle "loading screens" of eternal formats
3. It wouldn't make delve spells practically free; especially Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are busted strong in other Eternal Formats because fetches make the requirements for delve spells so easy. TC and DTT are really interesting and fun cards to play with and in a format with fetches I think they'd end up banned
4. Most importantly: The landbase sets a prefix of what is "allowed" in a format. It would be really difficult to assess that fetches are overpowered after a format has developed as they just generally boost the powerlevel of the entire format instead of just one or two decks. And not only is it very unlikely that fetches would be pointed out as overpowered, if they were banned after a metagame has developed, it would basically destroy the meta in its entirety and the format would have to start over in the same way as when fetches had been banned prematurely.
What about commander, from the vault, Masters, conspiracy or Dual deck reprints?
Why wouldn't you treat it like any other format?
FTV, Commander sets and the rest don't count for any other format with a limited card pool so why should you allow them in this one? Even if you were to decide to use them in the new format it is very likely that it would be one of the first things that WOTC would change to bring it into line with all of the other formats that they support.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Exactly, why not thread it like any other format?
Some people call it an eternal format, and in those, Commander, conspiricy and even "special set cards" like portal are legal.
If i am wrong, people should stop calling it an eternal format.
Because like Modern it is not an eternal format where you can use every card regardless of when it was last printed, it is a non rotating format with a set start point. For both you should treat them the same way in that the only cards that are legal are those that have been printed in a mainline set since what ever starting point you have chosen.
And again if WOTC were to get a hold of it they are going to treat like its closest analogues which are Modern and Standard which don't allow FTV/Commander/Planechase cards unless they have been printed in a relevant mainline set, unlike Commander which was designed to be played using the Legacy/Vintage card set from the start.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Hello, first post here, so please let me know if I need to fix up my formatting or anything.
I keep seeing people complaining about fetches in Frontier, and quite frankly, I think that people are a little more scared than they need to be. There are several decks that do fairly well with alternative landbases, such as Black Eldrazi and Ensoul decks.
While fetches allow annoying UU DTT's and Ancestral Recalls faster than they would otherwise occur, this is part of the appeal to the format. If you're not a fan of fetches, there are many decks that don't run them.
Now, I haven't been to a particularly large tournament for Frontier yet, but based off of decklists on sites like Hareruya and MTGGoldfish, I don't see a need to ban anything at all just yet. The only thing that might be worth considering is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy simply from how many copies of him there are, but even then I'd be hesitant to ban him.
I'd like to see fetches banned prematurely because of four reasons:
1. It would make being multicolor have actual downsides, as opposed to the other eternal formats where goign 3 colors is basically free
2. It would lessen the shuffle "loading screens" of eternal formats
3. It wouldn't make delve spells practically free; especially Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are busted strong in other Eternal Formats because fetches make the requirements for delve spells so easy. TC and DTT are really interesting and fun cards to play with and in a format with fetches I think they'd end up banned
4. Most importantly: The landbase sets a prefix of what is "allowed" in a format. It would be really difficult to assess that fetches are overpowered after a format has developed as they just generally boost the powerlevel of the entire format instead of just one or two decks. And not only is it very unlikely that fetches would be pointed out as overpowered, if they were banned after a metagame has developed, it would basically destroy the meta in its entirety and the format would have to start over in the same way as when fetches had been banned prematurely.
Let's say this post makes me want to ban fetches. What is the advantage of a pre-emptive ban besides point 4?
Basically, frontier is blank piece of a paper. Why rule out using gold to create a "fun" piece of art because it's expensive and slow "drying'?
I think that one problem frontier suffers from is that for a multitude of different archetypes they are very close to becoming good, but are missing some vital keys for success (ex. Waste Not not having any good wheel effects in frontier). In modern a lot of these archetypes can become viable because they have the card pool and just a lot of good alternatives to put in their decks. I feel that frontier just needs to start earlier like RTR or Theros. I feel that you either need to have the start point further back or wizards needs to be more active in printing more supplemental cards for these strategies to become viable. You can always wait for them to print these types of cards, but frontier might not get off the ground because a lot of decks don't have their needed cards and people don't feel like waiting for these cards to come out.
I have to admit, I am a vaguely interested in the format, but probably not long term. Specifically, I really enjoyed running Esper Dragons in standard, and I could at least try it again in this format. However, I'm concerned about several things, long term, about the format.
1. The whole fetchland thing. I think they are fine and likely to be fine. If WotC ever starts supporting this format, however, they will likely not want them in the mix. I think they'd get them out of modern if they could.
2. The startpoint issue (related to one above). If WotC gets involved, Khans is unlikely to be the startpoint. They would rather start somewhere with less problems than opt-in problem cards and ban them. This is sort of what happened with Overextended-to-modern, with several people beginning earlier than WotC eventually did. This sucked for me, as I really like some of the things 7th brought to the Modern table. I'm worried a similar thing could happen here if I get invested (emotionally-invested, that is).
3. Non-rotating format problems. Look at modern. This has all the problems and limitations of modern, just fewer problem cards. I think modern has proven that WotC is unsure how to nurture long-term formats and is generally unwilling to design for them. Unless something weird happens, all cards will still need to go through standard; hence frontier will be an "all problem, limited answer" format like modern. This will be an issue here, basically no matter what happens.
I hope they prove me wrong.
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Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Hey guys, new here... I just posted a link to a new free entry frontier tournament with great prize support we are running in hopes of growing the community. If you are interested go check it out...
I think that one problem frontier suffers from is that for a multitude of different archetypes they are very close to becoming good, but are missing some vital keys for success (ex. Waste Not not having any good wheel effects in frontier). In modern a lot of these archetypes can become viable because they have the card pool and just a lot of good alternatives to put in their decks. I feel that frontier just needs to start earlier like RTR or Theros. I feel that you either need to have the start point further back or wizards needs to be more active in printing more supplemental cards for these strategies to become viable. You can always wait for them to print these types of cards, but frontier might not get off the ground because a lot of decks don't have their needed cards and people don't feel like waiting for these cards to come out.
When it comes to frontier the key is card availability across multiple regions, whether someone is in Tokyo or someone is playing in Chicago. The issue with Modern for some regions is that card pool you are mentioning isn't accessible even though the cards may have been printed at one point. There are cards like Rite of Passage that are virtually impossible to find copies of because they were printed years ago and haven't seen a reprint since, and that is just a single example of this. There are hundreds if not thousands of cards lost to the ages due to the smaller print runs of the early and late 2000s.
So I don't disagree that there are missing pieces for certain decks in the format right now. However, I would say modern has the same issues simply due to availability. This is also not helped by their rarity system that works great for limited play, but bombs when it comes to constructed play in long lasting non-rotating formats.
Also, I think someone said something about Commander being designed for vintage and legacy cards. Commander does not have a "designed" compatibility with these sets. Commander is the Pogs of MTG. The only thing that keeps the format from turning into the mad hops brewmeister nightmare of genetically modified super beer that is modern are the 2+ people on the other side of the table. Namely, that they will hate you for all eternity if you happen to go infinite just one more time.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well, since the Fetchland cycle doesn't look like it will be making it to standard anytime soon that leaves Frontier in an odd position with it's manabase. Hopefully Amonket brings something good to the table with the next land cycle, but if we are only getting a half cycle of fetch lands and pain lands I'm starting to wonder if it would be worth cutting those lands from the format. At least until a full cycle is printed for either one via standard.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't personally understand the use of this format. It's just a different modern, isn't it?
What's to stop the best decks or busted combos from coming out? If it's not officially controlled by anyone then it's just a wild west with random house rules at every LGS or game group. I just can't see this really going anywhere as people are suggesting. I've heard a bit of buzz, but no more than I heard for tiny leaders. And look where that ended up.
I don't personally understand the use of this format. It's just a different modern, isn't it?
What's to stop the best decks or busted combos from coming out? If it's not officially controlled by anyone then it's just a wild west with random house rules at every LGS or game group. I just can't see this really going anywhere as people are suggesting. I've heard a bit of buzz, but no more than I heard for tiny leaders. And look where that ended up.
It was the same when modern first started, it's just that people have short memories these days and don't really look back at how the last big premier format was like before it became established and had tons of sets in it. Frontier is an opportunity for people to make a fresh start, keep up with new printings of cards, and play in a new non-rotating format that doesn't have the 50+ usd sideboard cards (or main deck cards in some cases) of modern. That alone is a huge advantage and one reason why people in my area play it.
Long term modern is probably not going to be around as the main non-rotating format for wizards as it sort of hit it's turning point around the end of Innistrad block as far as the card pool manageability is concerned. They also made a ton of goofs in card design that the current batch of designers dislike and the pros have been dismissive of the format due to the rock paper scissors nature making matches very swingy and not as skill based. As of today even with MM2017 the main audience of Modern are non-pro players that have been playing through many of the standard seasons that had the now expensive staples. The other part of the modern audience are players with very deep pools of free time spending money.
The median age of most players playing Magic is around 22 to 23 years of age. The majority of those players don't have the financial clout to break into a format where the manabase and staples added up to the pre-mm2017 release price point of 600-1800 dollars so they mostly play standard, draft, and limited formats. While I can't find numbers on specifically modern players, I'm willing to be the average age is higher at around 26-30 years. People in that age range likely have degrees and are working good jobs, so they can afford the numbers we are seeing to build the dream decks. Not to mention players in that age range were likely around for some of the more expensive sets like Lorwyn and Elwyn.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think that frontier should start at Magi Ori. and avoid fetchlands. This could be a clean start for a more skilled and grindier game. In the future, maybe 10 years from now, they have the need to create a new one because this one can become busted. At this point, modern became a super fast format (faster than legacy), with "low" interactions between players, with some impossible MU on game one and with lottery tickets after sideboarding. For me this is the main question about modern, not just the price tags.
New sets have few impact on modern because many of the cards are not fast enough, so to improve modern cards they need to print even more busted cards in new standard sets, a thing that seems to busted to do.
Frontier would accomodate recently rotated cards from standard, creating a nice brewer format for the next years, until it becomes like modern.
Sorry for my english, im not a native
Very true on many points, except the format has slowed down again and there's so many ways to disrupt a turn 3 win. There's virtually no turn 2 wins.... It has become a format once again where decks like GR Tron actually has a chance to top 8 again. It was knocked out of being competitive due to the entire format being hostile to slower decks.
As for Frontier being grindy, I can agree on that. I cannot agree about no Khans, because then it's Standard lite. You also lose several key sideboard cards. The format would be like Standard was before January and nobody here really likes that format. If you remove m15 and Khans you will destroy the format as surely as the creator of Tiny Leaders pulled the trigger on his own format...
Do you only want to ban cards based on power? What about deck diversity? If 75% of decks run CoCo or Copter, regardless of the deck variety, games will be boring.
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Only if they start to print decent cantrips again.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
We opted to include mentions of bans here for two reasons: to head off people attempting to create individual threads everything someone thought a card was too strong, and so that this thread was already set up and structured in case WOTC or another independent RC picks up this format. Feel free to use this as a place of discussion for health and direction of the format, two important topics given how new it is (among other things).
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Gotcha.
Speaking of archetypes, how strong is dredge in the current setup? The creatures for it are there, but it feels like getting enough into the yard to make them worthwhile is tough.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
1. It would make being multicolor have actual downsides, as opposed to the other eternal formats where goign 3 colors is basically free
2. It would lessen the shuffle "loading screens" of eternal formats
3. It wouldn't make delve spells practically free; especially Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are busted strong in other Eternal Formats because fetches make the requirements for delve spells so easy. TC and DTT are really interesting and fun cards to play with and in a format with fetches I think they'd end up banned
4. Most importantly: The landbase sets a prefix of what is "allowed" in a format. It would be really difficult to assess that fetches are overpowered after a format has developed as they just generally boost the powerlevel of the entire format instead of just one or two decks. And not only is it very unlikely that fetches would be pointed out as overpowered, if they were banned after a metagame has developed, it would basically destroy the meta in its entirety and the format would have to start over in the same way as when fetches had been banned prematurely.
FTV, Commander sets and the rest don't count for any other format with a limited card pool so why should you allow them in this one? Even if you were to decide to use them in the new format it is very likely that it would be one of the first things that WOTC would change to bring it into line with all of the other formats that they support.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Because like Modern it is not an eternal format where you can use every card regardless of when it was last printed, it is a non rotating format with a set start point. For both you should treat them the same way in that the only cards that are legal are those that have been printed in a mainline set since what ever starting point you have chosen.
And again if WOTC were to get a hold of it they are going to treat like its closest analogues which are Modern and Standard which don't allow FTV/Commander/Planechase cards unless they have been printed in a relevant mainline set, unlike Commander which was designed to be played using the Legacy/Vintage card set from the start.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
I keep seeing people complaining about fetches in Frontier, and quite frankly, I think that people are a little more scared than they need to be. There are several decks that do fairly well with alternative landbases, such as Black Eldrazi and Ensoul decks.
While fetches allow annoying UU DTT's and Ancestral Recalls faster than they would otherwise occur, this is part of the appeal to the format. If you're not a fan of fetches, there are many decks that don't run them.
Now, I haven't been to a particularly large tournament for Frontier yet, but based off of decklists on sites like Hareruya and MTGGoldfish, I don't see a need to ban anything at all just yet. The only thing that might be worth considering is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy simply from how many copies of him there are, but even then I'd be hesitant to ban him.
WUBAd NauseamBUW
WBBW TokensBW
MUST. BUILD. ANTI-META BREWS.
Consider it a snapshot of the kind of metagame we shall see (Toronto tournament)
Grixis control for the win
Let's say this post makes me want to ban fetches. What is the advantage of a pre-emptive ban besides point 4?
Basically, frontier is blank piece of a paper. Why rule out using gold to create a "fun" piece of art because it's expensive and slow "drying'?
Modern: Infect // Grixis Control
Legacy: Infect // Miracles
Vintage: Stax
1. The whole fetchland thing. I think they are fine and likely to be fine. If WotC ever starts supporting this format, however, they will likely not want them in the mix. I think they'd get them out of modern if they could.
2. The startpoint issue (related to one above). If WotC gets involved, Khans is unlikely to be the startpoint. They would rather start somewhere with less problems than opt-in problem cards and ban them. This is sort of what happened with Overextended-to-modern, with several people beginning earlier than WotC eventually did. This sucked for me, as I really like some of the things 7th brought to the Modern table. I'm worried a similar thing could happen here if I get invested (emotionally-invested, that is).
3. Non-rotating format problems. Look at modern. This has all the problems and limitations of modern, just fewer problem cards. I think modern has proven that WotC is unsure how to nurture long-term formats and is generally unwilling to design for them. Unless something weird happens, all cards will still need to go through standard; hence frontier will be an "all problem, limited answer" format like modern. This will be an issue here, basically no matter what happens.
I hope they prove me wrong.
When it comes to frontier the key is card availability across multiple regions, whether someone is in Tokyo or someone is playing in Chicago. The issue with Modern for some regions is that card pool you are mentioning isn't accessible even though the cards may have been printed at one point. There are cards like Rite of Passage that are virtually impossible to find copies of because they were printed years ago and haven't seen a reprint since, and that is just a single example of this. There are hundreds if not thousands of cards lost to the ages due to the smaller print runs of the early and late 2000s.
So I don't disagree that there are missing pieces for certain decks in the format right now. However, I would say modern has the same issues simply due to availability. This is also not helped by their rarity system that works great for limited play, but bombs when it comes to constructed play in long lasting non-rotating formats.
Also, I think someone said something about Commander being designed for vintage and legacy cards. Commander does not have a "designed" compatibility with these sets. Commander is the Pogs of MTG. The only thing that keeps the format from turning into the mad hops brewmeister nightmare of genetically modified super beer that is modern are the 2+ people on the other side of the table. Namely, that they will hate you for all eternity if you happen to go infinite just one more time.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What's to stop the best decks or busted combos from coming out? If it's not officially controlled by anyone then it's just a wild west with random house rules at every LGS or game group. I just can't see this really going anywhere as people are suggesting. I've heard a bit of buzz, but no more than I heard for tiny leaders. And look where that ended up.
It was the same when modern first started, it's just that people have short memories these days and don't really look back at how the last big premier format was like before it became established and had tons of sets in it. Frontier is an opportunity for people to make a fresh start, keep up with new printings of cards, and play in a new non-rotating format that doesn't have the 50+ usd sideboard cards (or main deck cards in some cases) of modern. That alone is a huge advantage and one reason why people in my area play it.
Long term modern is probably not going to be around as the main non-rotating format for wizards as it sort of hit it's turning point around the end of Innistrad block as far as the card pool manageability is concerned. They also made a ton of goofs in card design that the current batch of designers dislike and the pros have been dismissive of the format due to the rock paper scissors nature making matches very swingy and not as skill based. As of today even with MM2017 the main audience of Modern are non-pro players that have been playing through many of the standard seasons that had the now expensive staples. The other part of the modern audience are players with very deep pools of free time spending money.
The median age of most players playing Magic is around 22 to 23 years of age. The majority of those players don't have the financial clout to break into a format where the manabase and staples added up to the pre-mm2017 release price point of 600-1800 dollars so they mostly play standard, draft, and limited formats. While I can't find numbers on specifically modern players, I'm willing to be the average age is higher at around 26-30 years. People in that age range likely have degrees and are working good jobs, so they can afford the numbers we are seeing to build the dream decks. Not to mention players in that age range were likely around for some of the more expensive sets like Lorwyn and Elwyn.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Very true on many points, except the format has slowed down again and there's so many ways to disrupt a turn 3 win. There's virtually no turn 2 wins.... It has become a format once again where decks like GR Tron actually has a chance to top 8 again. It was knocked out of being competitive due to the entire format being hostile to slower decks.
As for Frontier being grindy, I can agree on that. I cannot agree about no Khans, because then it's Standard lite. You also lose several key sideboard cards. The format would be like Standard was before January and nobody here really likes that format. If you remove m15 and Khans you will destroy the format as surely as the creator of Tiny Leaders pulled the trigger on his own format...