Wow, this is really starting to look like a well designed PDH deck now - let the fine tuning begin! I'll be sure to check out Crypt Champion once I feel I'm done here, metalevolence. I really like the addition of Viridian Emissary and Penumbra Spider - those are good cards! OK lemme see...
Sakura-Tribe Elder: Can't believe I'm saying it, but doesn't this look a bit weak now? I mean, you have to sac it to use it and then you can't eat it. Or you can eat it, but not pump it for mana in the early turns like the elves. It's good, maybe just not the BEST for this particular deck?
Multani's Acolyte: I think this can bite you in the posterior, it needs perfect timing to pay off. I'd go with something surer.
Selvala's Enforcer: I don't really understand why you'd want to pay 4 mana for this actually.
Shaman of Spring: When I told you to run every card like this, I hadn't really considered the card quality. Paying 4 for a bear with cantrip is probably just bad, sorry.
I would replace these 4 with any or all of Mold Shambler, Nantuko Vigilante or Wickerbough Elder. You might also consider that Wirewood Herald + Eyeblight's Ending toolbox. And definetely Evincar's Justice and/or Crypt Rats (which you can recur, which is huge).
Doom Blade: This should probably be Snuff Out - great with Dimir House Guard
Grim Harvest: As discussed, this needs to be Reaping the Graves
Commander's Sphere: This should be Kodama's Reach.
Finally, I'd probably cut a land (you have so much fetch that you basically only need "pure" land to get to your third land drop) for Chainer's Edict if you have a paper copy. It's just very good. These are minor nit picks though, the deck as a whole has become much, much more refined.
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Thanks, I figured a few of these cards were not that great.
I tested the deck a bit and noticed that it is significantly harder to have four creatures in play in a timely fashion without all my token production. The deck feels stronger, but slower. I feel like including just a few more cheap creatures. Wirewood Herald will certainly help a lot in that regard, so I'll be including the package. I also think I'll be taking out Sakura-Tribe Elder for Scion Summoner. This may seem like a weird switch, but it produces two bodies, way more P/T, and can still ramp me in a pinch by sacrificing a body (although it isn't permanent). All for just one mana more.
I still need to find room for Evincar's Justice, but it's getting a lot harder to cut things.
I guess the Infect deck is worrying me a little bit, as well as the Fusion Elemental deck, which has the potential to be really, really good. Any advice on this?
NOOO! Sorry, that was my danger of cool things alert You already have an edible 2 cmc tutor that lets you choose from ramp and removal, that's plenty versatile to me. I wouldn't put Llanowar Empath on the first 99 cards that merits testing, but he could be useful to keep in the back of your mind as a potential future replacement.
I still need to find room for Evincar's Justice, but it's getting a lot harder to cut things.
Sure is. I'm thinking one 4 CMC creature with built-in non-creature removal might be plenty considering you have dimir house guard and 2 cmc disenchant effects and tutors as well. Not too many problem non-creatures in PDH after all. So cut the one you like least of Mold Shambler and Wickerbough Elder. That would make room for Evincar's Justice without fattening your curve (always so hard to find a good balance there with PDH it seems).
Btw, you may want Mortuary Mire in your land base. Apart from that, I think we're done for now. Nothing stands out as not worth trying at least. Looking forward to hear how it works in an actual multi-game.
I guess the Infect deck is worrying me a little bit, as well as the Fusion Elemental deck, which has the potential to be really, really good. Any advice on this?
*Chuckles* Well, theoretically, an infect deck could be problematic for you (you get lots of oompf fram life gain after all). Korozda Guildmage however seems like a complete dud against your deck. Tokens are somewhat irrelevant with your sweepers, and now he will probably shy away from sweepers himself which is good for not ruining your set-up. If he intends to use intimidate, you will probably be the last deck he'll attack, so he might actually help you win more readily! OTOH, he'll probably have a hard time intimidating Fusion Elemental and monobrown.dec too, so I guess he'll focus on black beaters on the Dormant Sliver player. Poor him! I think infect multiplayer PDH should be Ichor Rats or Viral Drake. I wouldn't worry too much about Korozda.
Fusion Elemental could certainly be a problem - you will probably play rather similar decks (lots of durdling CA and one big fatty general against another). If he uses Mind Extraction on you, you're probably dead. Fusion Elemental can use the bicolor divine auras (Steel of the Godhead etc.) to great effect, which might merit mass enchantment removal (Hush is decent and tutorable). If he's less voltron and more control (the better deck version IMO), don't bother.
Don't underestimate a well-built Garruk's Packleader. You will probably need to do 4 mass creature damage a couple of times in a game to keep it in check. If you have no more pressing concerns, don't hesitate to kill his commander on the spot if he taps out for it (it will drop on his t4 at the latest). He really has no other decent source of CA than his commander, so if you can keep it from triggering, the handful of elefants are a mere nuisance.
If Dormant Sliver drops Axebane Guardian or Overgrown Battlement, try your best to kill it before it untaps. That is probably the only attention you will need to pay for that deck. Basically, that deck devotes all its slots to accomplish something that Fusion Elemental can do in two cards: Krosan Restorer + Freed from the Real.
I really, really want the Walker of the Wastes deck to work. Let me know if it ever finishes first or second when you guys sit down and hack away!
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Most of us should be meeting this Thursday to play for the first time. There's just one more guy that I have no idea what he will be playing. Should be interesting! The guy playing Walker of the Wastes is one of the most experienced players in the group, so I'm sure he won't let you down!
Okay, so apparently almost no one else has even finished building their decks, and I scrambled to meet the due date alone (again...). Frustrating!
Anyways, I got to play a 1v1 game against Spellheart Chimera... and I got crushed. Like, absolutely trashed. The combination of countermagic, Burn, Bounce and pressure was just too much for my durdle-deck. He was always just destroying my tokens with Electrickery or a variant of it, and if I ever managed to get my commander out, it would get countered or bounced. I was also completely out-paced by the draw, which made it impossible for me to deal with the number of threats being thrown at me. In one game, a Nivix Cyclops dealt upwards of 30 damage to me before I managed to deal with it, and that's in maybe 4-5 turns. After 5 games of this beatdown, I had had enough.
This kinda makes me wanna rethink what I'm playing... I'm having such a hard time slotting myself into this format (or even enjoying it for now)!
I'm not sure if I should stick it out and see what my deck can do in multiplayer, build a new deck, or just have a sit down and think about my life.
Well, this would be equivalent to, say, UR "eye candy" vs. BG TorTex in pauper, except your concentration of removal is less.
I'm not sure if I should stick it out and see what my deck can do in multiplayer, build a new deck, or just have a sit down and think about my life.
I always recommend sitting down and thinking about your life! The way I see it, you can:
A) Do nothing and wait for multiplayer
B) Tweak your deck and remove the 10 worst cards against Spellheart Chimera and replace them with 10 better ones (more edicts? I dunno) that will still serve to OK in multiplayer. Test it again and see how it goes.
C) Go for another deck that is more resilient to tempo and early starts, yet strong in multiplayer. Crypt Rats perhaps?
Cheers!
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So I think I'm going to keep playing this deck for now, probably making a few more tweaks to get more removal in there. I'm also fairly certain I'm going to play Mesa Enchantress to change things up a little. I have a deck list of about 117 cards that I need to cut the fat off of, but I haven't gotten around to posting here yet. I will soon...
EDIT: What do you guys think of Tutor generals? Goblin Matron could make for something really interesting, no?
Good news! Sounds like more instant speed removal would have been good. That way, maybe you could have avoided weakening Korozda and let him kill Chimera, and then finish him off. Or just have more relevant spells against Chimera late game.
Really looking forward to your Mesa list! It intrigued me somewhat but in the end I found it too boring so I decided not to build it. Still, it's probably the best commander mono white has at present. Why not make a new thread about it and I'll be sure to provide some feedback, maybe help you make a few cuts
Tutor generals are good, but rare in PDH. Mono-red and mono-white have their own inherent problems (mono-green too, to a lesser extent). However, any general with a CA ETB ability (like Matron or Baleful Strix) is good. Tutoring is only so good as the tutor targets, of course. Disciple of Deceit is probably the best PDH tutoring general, as he can search out almost anything, including his own enablers (such as Whispersilk Cloak).
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Sakura-Tribe Elder: Can't believe I'm saying it, but doesn't this look a bit weak now? I mean, you have to sac it to use it and then you can't eat it. Or you can eat it, but not pump it for mana in the early turns like the elves. It's good, maybe just not the BEST for this particular deck?
Multani's Acolyte: I think this can bite you in the posterior, it needs perfect timing to pay off. I'd go with something surer.
Selvala's Enforcer: I don't really understand why you'd want to pay 4 mana for this actually.
Shaman of Spring: When I told you to run every card like this, I hadn't really considered the card quality. Paying 4 for a bear with cantrip is probably just bad, sorry.
I would replace these 4 with any or all of Mold Shambler, Nantuko Vigilante or Wickerbough Elder. You might also consider that Wirewood Herald + Eyeblight's Ending toolbox. And definetely Evincar's Justice and/or Crypt Rats (which you can recur, which is huge).
Doom Blade: This should probably be Snuff Out - great with Dimir House Guard
Grim Harvest: As discussed, this needs to be Reaping the Graves
Commander's Sphere: This should be Kodama's Reach.
Finally, I'd probably cut a land (you have so much fetch that you basically only need "pure" land to get to your third land drop) for Chainer's Edict if you have a paper copy. It's just very good. These are minor nit picks though, the deck as a whole has become much, much more refined.
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
I tested the deck a bit and noticed that it is significantly harder to have four creatures in play in a timely fashion without all my token production. The deck feels stronger, but slower. I feel like including just a few more cheap creatures. Wirewood Herald will certainly help a lot in that regard, so I'll be including the package. I also think I'll be taking out Sakura-Tribe Elder for Scion Summoner. This may seem like a weird switch, but it produces two bodies, way more P/T, and can still ramp me in a pinch by sacrificing a body (although it isn't permanent). All for just one mana more.
What other cool Elves could be used? Deadbridge Shaman? Elf Replica? Elvish Herder? Llanowar Empath (could be good enough for the deck regardless)?
I also got some intel on what I'll be playing against. One of my friends is net-decking this, another is playing Walker of the Wastes, another Garruk's Packleader, another Fusion Elemental (not sure what the strategy will be), and another Dormant Sliver defender combo.
I still need to find room for Evincar's Justice, but it's getting a lot harder to cut things.
I guess the Infect deck is worrying me a little bit, as well as the Fusion Elemental deck, which has the potential to be really, really good. Any advice on this?
Here's an updated list:
1 Marrow Chomper
Creatures (29)
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Essence Warden
1 Nest Invader
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Night Soil
1 Viridian Emissary
1 Wirewood Herald
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Scion Summoner
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Dutiful Attendant
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Civic Wayfinder
1 Borderland Ranger
1 Wood Elves
1 Phyrexian Rager
1 Pyknite
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Acorn Harvest
1 Kozilek's Predator
1 Penumbra Spider
1 Vulturous Aven
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Sporemound
Pump/Protection/Evasion (12)
1 Rancor
1 Ranger's Guile
1 Seedling Charm
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Tainted Strike
1 Phyresis
1 Fists of Ironwood
1 Sheltering Word
1 Vorrac Battlehorns
1 Fleetfeather Sandals
1 Whispersilk Cloak
Removal/Discard/Enchantment/Artifact/Graveyard hate (13)
1 Tragic Slip
1 Raven's Crime
1 Eyeblight's Ending
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Crypt Rats
1 Snuff Out
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Victim of Night
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Syphon Mind
1 Pestilence
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Sign in Blood
1 Reaping the Graves
1 Death Denied
1 Shred Memory
1 Read the Bones
1 Growth Spasm
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Cultivate
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Urborg Uprising
Lands (35)
13 Forest
11 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Khalni Garden
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Mortuary Mire
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
NOOO! Sorry, that was my danger of cool things alert You already have an edible 2 cmc tutor that lets you choose from ramp and removal, that's plenty versatile to me. I wouldn't put Llanowar Empath on the first 99 cards that merits testing, but he could be useful to keep in the back of your mind as a potential future replacement.
Sure is. I'm thinking one 4 CMC creature with built-in non-creature removal might be plenty considering you have dimir house guard and 2 cmc disenchant effects and tutors as well. Not too many problem non-creatures in PDH after all. So cut the one you like least of Mold Shambler and Wickerbough Elder. That would make room for Evincar's Justice without fattening your curve (always so hard to find a good balance there with PDH it seems).
Btw, you may want Mortuary Mire in your land base. Apart from that, I think we're done for now. Nothing stands out as not worth trying at least. Looking forward to hear how it works in an actual multi-game.
*Chuckles* Well, theoretically, an infect deck could be problematic for you (you get lots of oompf fram life gain after all). Korozda Guildmage however seems like a complete dud against your deck. Tokens are somewhat irrelevant with your sweepers, and now he will probably shy away from sweepers himself which is good for not ruining your set-up. If he intends to use intimidate, you will probably be the last deck he'll attack, so he might actually help you win more readily! OTOH, he'll probably have a hard time intimidating Fusion Elemental and monobrown.dec too, so I guess he'll focus on black beaters on the Dormant Sliver player. Poor him! I think infect multiplayer PDH should be Ichor Rats or Viral Drake. I wouldn't worry too much about Korozda.
Fusion Elemental could certainly be a problem - you will probably play rather similar decks (lots of durdling CA and one big fatty general against another). If he uses Mind Extraction on you, you're probably dead. Fusion Elemental can use the bicolor divine auras (Steel of the Godhead etc.) to great effect, which might merit mass enchantment removal (Hush is decent and tutorable). If he's less voltron and more control (the better deck version IMO), don't bother.
Don't underestimate a well-built Garruk's Packleader. You will probably need to do 4 mass creature damage a couple of times in a game to keep it in check. If you have no more pressing concerns, don't hesitate to kill his commander on the spot if he taps out for it (it will drop on his t4 at the latest). He really has no other decent source of CA than his commander, so if you can keep it from triggering, the handful of elefants are a mere nuisance.
If Dormant Sliver drops Axebane Guardian or Overgrown Battlement, try your best to kill it before it untaps. That is probably the only attention you will need to pay for that deck. Basically, that deck devotes all its slots to accomplish something that Fusion Elemental can do in two cards: Krosan Restorer + Freed from the Real.
I really, really want the Walker of the Wastes deck to work. Let me know if it ever finishes first or second when you guys sit down and hack away!
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
I switched out Mold Shambler for Evincar's Justice. Wickerbough Elder seems a bit more flexible, ends up with a bigger body and is cheaper to cast and activate.
Good catch on Mortuary Mire.
Most of us should be meeting this Thursday to play for the first time. There's just one more guy that I have no idea what he will be playing. Should be interesting! The guy playing Walker of the Wastes is one of the most experienced players in the group, so I'm sure he won't let you down!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Anyways, I got to play a 1v1 game against Spellheart Chimera... and I got crushed. Like, absolutely trashed. The combination of countermagic, Burn, Bounce and pressure was just too much for my durdle-deck. He was always just destroying my tokens with Electrickery or a variant of it, and if I ever managed to get my commander out, it would get countered or bounced. I was also completely out-paced by the draw, which made it impossible for me to deal with the number of threats being thrown at me. In one game, a Nivix Cyclops dealt upwards of 30 damage to me before I managed to deal with it, and that's in maybe 4-5 turns. After 5 games of this beatdown, I had had enough.
This kinda makes me wanna rethink what I'm playing... I'm having such a hard time slotting myself into this format (or even enjoying it for now)!
I'm not sure if I should stick it out and see what my deck can do in multiplayer, build a new deck, or just have a sit down and think about my life.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I always recommend sitting down and thinking about your life! The way I see it, you can:
A) Do nothing and wait for multiplayer
B) Tweak your deck and remove the 10 worst cards against Spellheart Chimera and replace them with 10 better ones (more edicts? I dunno) that will still serve to OK in multiplayer. Test it again and see how it goes.
C) Go for another deck that is more resilient to tempo and early starts, yet strong in multiplayer. Crypt Rats perhaps?
Cheers!
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
But yeah, blue is good lol.
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The infect player had a rough time, since we both just kept killing his creatures. He had the Chimera player at 9 poison counters and then died.
I durdled. I managed to Transmute Dimir House Guard four times that game, getting Snuff Out, Pestilence, Kozilek's Predator and Penumbra Spider. Once the Infect player was out of the picture, I got bounced,countered and burned to death yet again. At least the game lasted a bit longer this time! Urborg Uprising is an awesome card.
So I think I'm going to keep playing this deck for now, probably making a few more tweaks to get more removal in there. I'm also fairly certain I'm going to play Mesa Enchantress to change things up a little. I have a deck list of about 117 cards that I need to cut the fat off of, but I haven't gotten around to posting here yet. I will soon...
EDIT: What do you guys think of Tutor generals? Goblin Matron could make for something really interesting, no?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Really looking forward to your Mesa list! It intrigued me somewhat but in the end I found it too boring so I decided not to build it. Still, it's probably the best commander mono white has at present. Why not make a new thread about it and I'll be sure to provide some feedback, maybe help you make a few cuts
Tutor generals are good, but rare in PDH. Mono-red and mono-white have their own inherent problems (mono-green too, to a lesser extent). However, any general with a CA ETB ability (like Matron or Baleful Strix) is good. Tutoring is only so good as the tutor targets, of course. Disciple of Deceit is probably the best PDH tutoring general, as he can search out almost anything, including his own enablers (such as Whispersilk Cloak).
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]