Pauper seems to have really kicked off in my playgroup, as people are talking about it and thinking about it a lot more. They now mentioned that they want to build PDH, so this is great! I thought I'd try making a deck that tries to win with General Damage for once, but still keep some form of control over the game. Invisible Stalker seems like an interesting candidate, as there won't be many board clears around (unless someone decides to play Crypt Rats), so the only real threat should be stuff like edicts. Seems like a solid idea.
I used to run a Mono-Blue Aggro deck before Delver of Secrets was printed, and it used Unstable Mutation and Bonesplitters to push damage with a bunch of 1 mana 2/1s with evasion. Aside from that, I had no idea how little pump there is in Blue. No matter, there seems to be just enough acceptable pump to make this deck somewhat work.
I need some help! I'm not overly experienced with Commander to begin with, so I'm not sure about the numbers. The deck below is still at 104 cards, so I need to make some cuts. I think I'd also like to include more countermagic that counters creatures, like Remove Soul and it's many counterparts.
Other than that, the deck is fairly balanced between each category, obviously going for more pump in order to maximize the damage with my General.
The game plan is essentially stalling the game out with counters, bounce, etc. while I kill people with my general.
Are there any obvious cuts to make? Are there any cards I'm absolutely missing? Is the deck just terrible in general? Keep in mind this is the first draft, and I'm not even convinced that I'll end up making the deck.
It's a good first try, but if you're interested in this type of deck and want something that is actual good, as in tier 1, I can very much recommend Ascended Lawmage. Almost as good evasion, 2 more power, survives 1 damage sweepers so is more resilient AND opens up white as a color for buffing. Is there any reason why you wouldn't want to play it instead?
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I mean, stalker isn't completely worse or anything. It does come down faster/cheaper, and outright unblockable is a good chunk better than flying.
If you think stalker is just cooler that's the most valid reason to play it IMO
Lawmage itself is actually worse than stalker in pretty much every way. +2/+1 is definitely not worth costing 2 more mana and getting blocked by flying and reach creatures. It's just that there are a lot of white cards that are really amazing for this deck/archetype, like way more efficient/bigger pumps, lifelink and/or vigilance, protection from black/red, some aura tutors, and artifact/enchantment recursion.
I agree, try out Stalker if you like it. After all, it is blue, so it won't exactly be bad. If you might look at something else entirely though, here are a few options that may be interesting:
Other mono blue: Peregrine Drake (Ghostly Flicker combo, highly tuned list available, also tier 1). Also Viral Drake is another "voltron" in mono blue.
Other voltron/aggro options: Marisi's Twinclaws (a bit like Kiln Fiend decks, BAM kill in two hits). Garruk's Packleader is probably the only viable (tier 1.5) "many big beats" deck you can play.
Other strong-to-decent + fun options: Crypt Rats, Mistmeadow Witch, most things that are U/B and run a half decent Commander (Baleful Strix might be #1), Wirewood Symbiote (ETB elves and tap effects abuse), Vizkopa Guildmage (it is strong and I know you like Pestilence), 5c control, various Ux combo (UR, UG and UW options exist, most involve the commander to some degree - none as strong as Peregrine Drake though).
Let me know if any of these piques your interest!
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Thanks so much for the great comments from the both of you. I might give it a more serious try later on.
I was rummaging through my collection for choice uncommons and I found Guttersnipe. I think it could make for a really good Mono-Red Control General. What do you think?
I think you will draw the same conclusions I did when I was playing my early drafts of Vizkopa Guildmage. Continous, non-trivial mass player damage will get you killed fast. Or to paraphrase Churchill, you can extort all of the opponents some of the time, and some of the opponents all of the time, but you can't extort all of the opponents all of the time. In short, they're gonna kill you, son!
Mono-red, mono-white and mono-brown are about the weakest choices for PDH in general, mostly for not having much of a hand after turn 5. Few generals can compensate. A deck that I think could be very strong as a control option though is Gelectrode. It's almost the same that you're going for with Guttersnipe, but it targets creatures rather than players only and coupled with the best burn you can take down titans or throngs of weenies in no time. Also you'll have access to blue - the Ghostly Flicker engine in particular. Does this seem interesting to you?
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Boy, this is really frustrating. Gelectrode sounds fine, if a bit unexciting. I tested a bit with Guttersnipe Control and is does seem to run out of steam too quickly for a multiplayer game. I don't know why I feel so uninspired by this, to be honest. I'm going to take a long look at all the options, and if I don't find anything, I'll probably go with Gelectrode. If I have any ideas, I'll either post them or edit them here.
Thanks again!
EDIT: Viashino Slaughtermaster. Seems like it could make for a good tri-colour general that focuses on General Damage. He's cheap to play, has Double Strike, and is in colours that have access to decent auras and ways to give him evasion.
I was also thinking about Devour creatures, mainly Marrow Chomper or Thunder-Thrash Elder. I think the Chomper would be pretty good because it gives access to two colours, and the life gain is a great way to get back into the game. Devour also encourages aristocrat-style decks, which are a personal favourite of mine. Thunder-Thrash is in a great colour for Devour as I could go with lots of Goblins.
Juniper Order Ranger also seems like a really strong Selesnya Tokens general, making all your 1/1s 2/2s and beefing himself up massively. In the same vein, Sigil Captain could really good too, if maybe a bit more challenging to build around.
Blazing Specter would be awesome, but it was only downgraded online.
Ah yes, I always forget about the Slaughtermaster - it's a good Voltron option. Marrow Chomper could be good, but my money is on the Slaughtermaster.
Juniper Order Ranger and Sigil Captain are indeed classic token generals that can do pretty well actually.
I've never seen anyone build Blazing Specter but IMO it's not OP at all as an uncommon and has an interesting mix of disruption and voltron that could be particularly interesting if you intend to play lots of 1-on-1.
I think all of these are good options but I feel most excited by the Slaughtermaster, mostly because the token decks largely build themselves.
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I've been building and testing both Viashino Slaughtermaster and Marrow Chomper for the majority of yesterday, as I also felt they are the most promising generals.
Pauper EDH is a really big challenge, when it comes to deck-building! Just finding enough good cards to fit 100 is hard enough, but then you have to start trying to decide between multiple mediocre cards... Really tricky!
In goldfish testing, I've gotten several turn 4 kills with this deck, and one or two turn 3. In a multiplayer game, it would leave me with almost no hand and a medium-sized Slaughtermaster with some evasion. Seems good, but I'm just not sold on a lot of the pump spells that are sometimes just plain bad. I thought there were more Giant Growth variants out there!
I've actually been very happy with the way this deck turned out. Is there any other card draw in black that I've missed? I'd like to replace Nihil Spellbomb. I've been able to get huge Chompers out and have it trample through, but usually it's better to just have an 11/11 or something around there to still have some creatures to block/attack with or to soak up Edicts. The lifegain off of this guy is ridiculous! Taking someone out in one shot with a Tainted Srike is going to feel amazing.
Some comments for either or both would be really appreciated.
Impressive results, but I think you may be focusing too much on your commanders while you lack many PDH staples in your colors (sweepers, recursion engines etc).
For example, Viashino for multiplayer can't be Giant Growth.dec. You should prioritize pump that stays on (like Bonesplitter) or trades 1-for-1 (like the umbra auras or cards like Vines of Vastwood). Cards with flashback or cards like Slaughterhorn that are easy to recur with black PDH staple engines Grim Harvest etc. are also worth it. Straight Giant Growth might not actually be good enough!
So you play this by fixing mana t1, drop Slaughtermaster, t3 - pump him with mana and attack the fastest developer. Develop mana and only commit sure cards like Bonesplitter to the board. Sandbag the 1-shot effects. Weaken the top dog, conserve cards, sculpt hand. Then when you have an opening, go for the kill in one turn and eliminate the biggest threat - without using so much resources that the next on the list becomes too problematic.
Look around a few other lists in your colors and examine the patterns to find more staples that might suit you. Of course, this advice is mainly for multi-player.
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I do like the marrow chomper deck a lot, lifegain actually matters more in this format than I thought it would before I actually played some games. Also, gray merchant of asphodel is a hell of a guy. I've found crypt incursion and rotfeaster maggot to be surprisingly solid as well. Deathgreeter is probably an easy cut for any of those
I also recommend a bit more ramp, like I don't see any good reason for passing up golgari signet
I agree that you should poke around other lists and look for staples, especially mana ramp, card draw, the best removal, and 2-for-1 creatures like wickerbough elder
As far as what cards to cut, the first thing on the chopping block should be all thallids, they are far too slow and awful even for multiplayer PDH
Impressive results, but I think you may be focusing too much on your commanders while you lack many PDH staples in your colors (sweepers, recursion engines etc).
For example, Viashino for multiplayer can't be Giant Growth.dec. You should prioritize pump that stays on (like Bonesplitter) or trades 1-for-1 (like the umbra auras or cards like Vines of Vastwood). Cards with flashback or cards like Slaughterhorn that are easy to recur with black PDH staple engines Grim Harvest etc. are also worth it. Straight Giant Growth might not actually be good enough!
So you play this by fixing mana t1, drop Slaughtermaster, t3 - pump him with mana and attack the fastest developer. Develop mana and only commit sure cards like Bonesplitter to the board. Sandbag the 1-shot effects. Weaken the top dog, conserve cards, sculpt hand. Then when you have an opening, go for the kill in one turn and eliminate the biggest threat - without using so much resources that the next on the list becomes too problematic.
Look around a few other lists in your colors and examine the patterns to find more staples that might suit you. Of course, this advice is mainly for multi-player.
Very sound advice all around.
I wanted a Giant Growth.dec, but it definitely won't be ideal for multiplayer (which is what we'll be playing). I'll have to take a closer look at all the power-pumping auras and see if anything would be just plain better. My first idea is Grave Servitude and Twisted Experiment, which I had originally left out because of the -1 tougness.
I considered Grim Harvest, but I have so few creatures that I wasn't sure it would be worth it. What do you think?
I'll definitely take a look around and see if I missed anything. I took a quick look in the primers thread, but it seems like the decks tagged there often aren't very well explored and never got much feedback. Very few of them look optimal, and often date back several years. Do you have any suggestions as to where I might find some good lists?
I do like the marrow chomper deck a lot, lifegain actually matters more in this format than I thought it would before I actually played some games. Also, gray merchant of asphodel is a hell of a guy. I've found crypt incursion and rotfeaster maggot to be surprisingly solid as well. Deathgreeter is probably an easy cut for any of those
I also recommend a bit more ramp, like I don't see any good reason for passing up golgari signet
I agree that you should poke around other lists and look for staples, especially mana ramp, card draw, the best removal, and 2-for-1 creatures like wickerbough elder
As far as what cards to cut, the first thing on the chopping block should be all thallids, they are far too slow and awful even for multiplayer PDH
Pauper is huge, but the amount of cards that I would consider playable by Pauper standards is very limited. I would never consider playing something like Chatter of the Squirrel, but token shenanigans are somewhat limited when you can only have 1-ofs in a commons-only format. It just feels bad to have to stretch the playability so far.
I agree Nihil Spellbomb is a great card, but I play Night Soil and Crypt Incursion already, which I thought helped my strategy a bit more. Do you think it's worth cutting?
Thanks for mentioning Bitter Revelation. I ended up including Syphon Mind instead, as I know I'll be playing against 2-3 other players.
I'll make room for Rampant Growth and Golgari Signet. Even with all my fetches and duals, I was still running into problems pretty frequently. These mana rocks should help a lot. Thanks!
Vorrac Battlehorns is also a really good one. I'll make room for it now.
I'll cut Vitaspore Thallid and Deathspore Thallid, but I think I will keep the others. One is a 1-drop that makes tokens, which is pretty good, and the other is a 0/5 defender, which is a great thing to have making tokens for you.
I checked out your brews, and I like them all a lot. You're a really good deck-builder!
Alright! I took the time to look through a lot of different lists I found a few cards that would be really great in my decks. After lots of testing, I decided to go with Marrow Chomper, as he seems a lot more multi-player friendly and is a lot easier to play for now and I have almost all the cards for the deck already.
A lot of green decks I saw are playing Primal Huntbeast. I understand that Hexproof is powerful, but a staple? I'm not convinced. If anyone can shed light on this guy, that would be great.
A card I'm thinking about including is Yavimaya Elder. I'm not sure what I should cut.
Since I cut the Thallids, I lost all my Saproling synergy, so this allowed me to include better stand-alone cards instead, which really helped the deck.
I included Typhoid Rats and Plagued Rusalka, but I'll have to test and see if they are worth it. What do you think?
I'd also like to replace Sylvok Lifestaff with another equipment that grants evasion instead of lifegain (which this deck has a lot of already). I'm torn between Bladed Pinions and Fleetfeather Sandals. On one hand, First Strike would be useful on a lot of smaller minions, and potentially save Chompy from Deathtouch creatures (I could definitely see Winged Coatl as a general being very strong, as well as the ubiquitous Baleful Strix). On the other hand, Haste gets an extra attack in if I'm already at seven mana, which speeds up my clock (often a 2-3 turn clock) tremendously. Any thoughts on these?
Alright, Marrow Chomper it is - interesting as I've never seen it built before! First to give opinions on your specific questions:
Primal Huntbeast - not for you
Yavimaya Elder - yes, staple, and very nice for you
Typhoid Rats and Plagued Rusalka - crap, cut them
Sylvok Lifestaff - keep it, good synergy with your deck, just make sure to put that life to better use (see below)
Fleetfeather Sandals > Bladed Pinions
So, what to cut? Things I think look weak as a snap judgment:
Festering Goblin, Newt and shambling goblin (to small effect for a PDH card)
Typhoid Rats
Thallid
plagued rusalka
shell dweller
carrion feeder, husk, ghoul and aristocrat - competes with your commander for resources that will be scarcer when you start running better cards
scion of the wild - no, you do not want to overextend in this format, play a few value creatures and eat them, sweep the opposition while your fatty survives, c'est tout!
Ivy Lane Denizen - without persistent creatures, and even with them, this is meh
Your pump/protection suite is decent but you're missing Broken Fall.
Your removal suite shows signs of 60 card pauper thinking over PDH thinking The scarce sweepers available rules the format! Consider not running a piece of removal if it can't at least kill 2 x 2/2 creatures, or a throng of 1/1.
I think there's room still to change about 12-15 cards at least, before fine tuning can begin. Your mana and draw package looks about right.
EDIT: Haha, Winged Coatl was actually the first PDH deck I built. It revolved around deathtouch + viridian longbow and the cards that go with it. It's a strong combo for PDH. Avenging Druid was an all star in the deck, powering up massive capsizes.
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there is probably such a thing as being too durdly but I haven't really found it mana efficiency is always critical too but I think you have more small, cheap effects than necessary, like basically all your 1 cmc creatures that aren't mana dorks. It may seem too durdly but I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to play those durdle dorks, eat one with vulturous aven, then eat the aven and whatever else with Chompy, and bring it all back with a big death denied, for instance. Ugh god yes #mydurdleaddiction
I don't think sweepers are as critical as urdjur does but it's a good idea. I also agree that slots occupied by vampire aristocrat and similar guys could be put to much better use
Thanks so much for all the help from the both of you! This decks is getting better all the time!
I feel a bit unsure about the Mass Removal. This deck is basically the reason why other people should be running mass removal. Maybe a single copy of Pestilence wouldn't be so bad?
I'll be taking out most of the cards Urdjur suggested.
Although I agree that in the beginning, the sacrifice outlets kind of take away from the Commander, they are extremely useful for after the commander has Devoured a bunch of creatures. I'll often find myself building up a huge army again, and I needed another sink to deal massive damage. They can be as dangerous as the Commander itself in a lot of cases. I'll be cutting Carrion Feeder, but I'll try keeping the other three for now.
The same goes for Scion of the Wild, but he's good at almost every stage of the game, getting in for a lot of damage before the Chompy comes down or getting huge later in the game when I've built up again. He could be bad in a board wipe situation, though.
I'm guessing further cuts should probably be Thallid Shell-Dweller, and then both Blisterpod and Tukatongue Thallid, since they don't come with extra bodies, but rather replace themselves. Same goes for Young Wolf, but he seems a cut above the others.
I also wanted to mention my MVPs in testing. Stupidly enough, Marrow Chomper itself is really, really good. I can't stress what a difference the lifegain makes and it is incredibly hard to deal with because it's often so huge, is a zombie and is a black card. Next, I knew Sprout Swarm was a good card, but it's just disgustingly good in this deck. Night Soil really overperformed for me every time I drew it. I could often get 3-4 Saprolings as soon as I played it, which felt just broken. Lastly, I just added Sheltering Word because it gave Hexproof, but it turns out it's probably the best Commander-saver in the deck, often netting me a 11+ life boost on top of saving my Commander. Really good stuff!
Of course, how could I forget Kodama's Reach and Cultivate! Those cards should be in every PDH with green, indeed they should be in every EDH deck with green and at least a handful of basics. For a PDH deck that mainly has 2-4 CMC drops, about 35-40 and 5-10 acceleration is quite sufficient, especially if you include some cantrips and CA.
I'll often find myself building up a huge army again, and I needed another sink to deal massive damage.
To me this speaks volumes that something is not right here. It is a mistake to build a PDH deck where you care much what happens to your creatures. This tells me cards like Young Wolf aren't good enough even in your deck. You know, many wouldn't hesitate to run Phyrexian Rager on its own in PDH. It draws a card and ideally trades with a creature - and that is fine by itself. You have a little advantage in your general, you can put it to better use and go plus on the life gain etc. But something is very wrong when you get so dependent on eating your creatures that you find your general isn't enough. You could easily build this deck to be immune to sweepers, indeed even benefit from them while wrecking your opponents' boards.
You know what deals massive damage together with your general? Pestilence. At least include Dimir House Guard to find it, if you don't want Evincar's Justice too. And drop every vanilla creature that you'd only run to devour it. The card quality in PDH is excellent, once you know what you're looking for. Metalevolence comment about going for durdling is spot on in my book.
Pyknite is probably better than all the army-in-a-can cards that just feature more vanilla weenies to feed. But it might still not be good enough for the final cut.
You will seriously need more recursion. Lots more. 5-6 cards that return creatures from your grave would be good. Reaping the Graves is killer. Death Denied isn't bad either. Actually, mass recursion might be better for you than Grim Harvest. Why pay 5 for 1 card when you eat 3-4 dudes at a time regularly?
I would have guessed Sprout Swarm and Night Soil would be MVPs for you (not so much Sheltering Word though - cool!). Notice how all of them has CMC 2? I'm telling you, you should run Shred Memory! It's EDH and you're in black, tutors man!
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I currently have 9 pieces of ramp. Almost all of them involve creatures, which is good. Not to mention a lot of the tokens can be sacced for mana. I should be ok without Cultivate, right?
I'll often find myself building up a huge army again, and I needed another sink to deal massive damage.
To me this speaks volumes that something is not right here. It is a mistake to build a PDH deck where you care much what happens to your creatures. This tells me cards like Young Wolf aren't good enough even in your deck. You know, many wouldn't hesitate to run Phyrexian Rager on its own in PDH. It draws a card and ideally trades with a creature - and that is fine by itself. You have a little advantage in your general, you can put it to better use and go plus on the life gain etc. But something is very wrong when you get so dependent on eating your creatures that you find your general isn't enough. You could easily build this deck to be immune to sweepers, indeed even benefit from them while wrecking your opponents' boards.
I don't understand what you're saying here, I'm sorry! I think you may have skipped a word or something, and I can't make much sense of the rest of the paragraph. Are you saying I should care more about what happens to my creatures? I don't think I'm overly dependent on eating my creatures, it's just a strong part of the strategy. I think it would be completely valid to go wide with a large amount of tokens in the right circumstances.
I think it's important to note what Marrow Chomper's number look like in an average game. There is little to no difference between an 11/11 Chomper and a 19/19 Chomper. They both win the game in two hits. So, why bother sacrificing more than four creatures to it? Of course this depends on the board state and what kind of evasion I have access to, but generally, four creatures being fed to the general are enough. The rest can be fodder for the other creatures, are chump blockers, or are used to go wide.
I guess I'll try running Pestilence and stuff, but I don't quite understand how this won't just destroy my own board state and put me in a worse position. I'm just a little lost here.
Death Denied is actually probably way better than Grim Harvest. Urborg Uprising is probably a good idea too! I'm not sure if I'd be able to get a lot of mileage out of Reaping the Graves, maybe 1-2 bodies at most...
Good thinking with Shred Memory. I couldn't really think of anything I'd really want to fetch with it, but I guess the 2-drop slot is powerful enough!
Your previous lists have included vanilla creatures that are there only for "eating", that don't bring card parity on their own. Young Wolf is a good example of this, whereas Phyrexian Rager is not. The wolf pretty much needs to be eaten to be useful, while the rager doesn't. It has already replaced itself, and if you can trade with it that's good and if not you can always eat it.
The problem with wolf-type cards as you note is that you have very many creatures and can only eat so many. I'm all for the 11/11 chomper plan, but if you feel bad about a position where you have an 11/11 chomper and nothing to eat your overly abundant weenies, this tells me you're focusing to much on creatures in general and creatures that need eating in particular.
I think the best approach here would be to categorize all the "edible" creatures into different card quality categories depending on their mechanics. I would rate the categories thusly:
Priority #1: These are creatures that replace themselves for a decent cost such as Phyrexian Rager, Farhaven Elf, Liliana's Specter, Cadaver Imp and Elvish Visionary (probably even Pyknite). You should probably run every black and green common creature that does this before any other creatures in the deck.
Priority #2: These are creatures that are rather good on their own, common PDH options but even better in your deck for being edible creatures. For instance, most other golgari PDH decks would never ever run Fyndhorn Elves over Cultivate, but you might (in fact, I think you should run both - you should run acceleration that gives CA like Cultivate, is a good creature like 1 CMC elves, or best of all both such as Farhaven Elf. You should not run stuff like Golgari Signet). Cards like Sakura Tribe Elder, Mold Shambler and Perilous Myr fits in this category too. Festering Newt and friends definetely doesn't - it would never be considered in any PDH deck.
Priority #3: These would be cards that produce multiple bodies for chomper to eat. Honestly, I'm not sure I would run anything in this category except Sprout Swarm and Night Soil. Sporemound can come too I suppose. The definitive line probably goes somewhere between Kozilek's Predator (playable) and Eyeless Watcher (terrible without chomper). Chomper can eat anything, so there's little reason to run creatures JUST for eating IMO.
I guess I'll try running Pestilence and stuff, but I don't quite understand how this won't just destroy my own board state and put me in a worse position. I'm just a little lost here.
It depends both on how you build your deck and how you play it. Quick kills is not a winning strategy in multi-player PDH. That's good for golgari, because it is king of durdling. Rather than running 33 creatures, try running 25 creatures, 5 mass recursion and 3 tutors. Think of your deck as a repetitive cycle that revolves around the commander:
1) Play 4 value creatures while developing mana. Possibly some instant speed removal if attacked.
2) Drop chomper and eat them, you now "only" have a 11/11 on your board.
3) Use the rest of your spells to protect chomper, give it evasion, and sweep the opposition. Sandbag any creatures and recursion spells you top deck in this face.
4) Eventually chomper dies or you win. If it dies, drop the creatures you have top-decked and recur the best early dudes you ate initially. Replay chomper and eat 4 dudes again, gaining incremental advantage from recuring creatures like Elvish Visionary.
Repeat steps 2-4 until you win the game against all opponents.
This strategy is not at odds with sweepers, in fact it is benefitted by them. You should run creatures and other spells in numbers that support this strategy. I doubt more than 25 creatures will be needed. Hope this explains better what I'm recommending.
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Just a quick note on reaping the graves, it's an instant and storm counts all spells cast this turn, so you can just cast it on an opponent's turn and I've never had a problem getting 3 guys back with it.
I think a few multi-body cards should be run for consistency's sake, they will ensure you have enough creatures to make a 9/9 or 11/11 chomper with more possible draws. I like nest invader, scion summoner, kozilek's predator and eyeless watcher, they all come down sooner than chomper, are actual creatures that can be recurred (unlike, say, call the scions) and being able to use eldrazi spawn for mana is sometimes very useful. I also think scatter the seeds is a good option as it can be cast before chomper as long as you have something to convoke with. And I like acorn harvest's flashback. Anything at 5cc or more would have to be really amazing for me to want it, I don't think Sporemound should make the cut.
Penumbra spider should be played here, it's good on its own, and this deck can struggle with fliers. With recursion this guy can block ascended lawmage for days. Or you just use it as chomper fodder and enjoy your 2/4 tokens.
I also think wickerbough elder and nantuko vigilante should be played, it's unfortunate they aren't cheaper than your commander (when used to naturalize) but they are still 2-for-1s with decent bodies you can recur. Also we have enough green bodies that gleeful sabotage starts to look good.Your last list runs no removal for artifacts and enchantments, which are effects I've always found valuable.
I'd say more but I'm basically just reiterating my list from tappedout at this point lol.
To make deck space, I agree that shambling goblin and festering newt are simply not good. Perilous my is much more likely to find a target but even that probably isn't good enough. I'm also really dubious of deathgreeter.
By the way, if you guys have any interest in my Crypt Champion deck any input would be appreciated. It's a goofy voltron + value that's surprisingly more effective than it looks, just like Chomper!
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Thanks so much for taking the time to write all this in greater detail. I understand a lot more!
So, back to the drawing board, I did a bit of searching and tried to find lots of value cards. I also found this list, which I found was very inspiring. Is Wirewood Herald and an elf tool box worth it in this deck?
I now have a crap-ton of land-fetch. Do I have too much?
Are creatures that only have an effect when they die not good enough? Dutiful Attendant seems to fit the deck fairly well, as well as Viridian Emissary, but it's difficult to say.
Since I'm going for the value plan, I'd like to include Evincar's Justice as well.
I'm keeping a couple token producers that I felt were too strong to pass on.
I always had Gleeful Sabotage in the deck, and I think it's still a really strong card, despite not having as many tokens.
I used to run a Mono-Blue Aggro deck before Delver of Secrets was printed, and it used Unstable Mutation and Bonesplitters to push damage with a bunch of 1 mana 2/1s with evasion. Aside from that, I had no idea how little pump there is in Blue. No matter, there seems to be just enough acceptable pump to make this deck somewhat work.
I need some help! I'm not overly experienced with Commander to begin with, so I'm not sure about the numbers. The deck below is still at 104 cards, so I need to make some cuts. I think I'd also like to include more countermagic that counters creatures, like Remove Soul and it's many counterparts.
Other than that, the deck is fairly balanced between each category, obviously going for more pump in order to maximize the damage with my General.
The game plan is essentially stalling the game out with counters, bounce, etc. while I kill people with my general.
Are there any obvious cuts to make? Are there any cards I'm absolutely missing? Is the deck just terrible in general? Keep in mind this is the first draft, and I'm not even convinced that I'll end up making the deck.
1 Invisible Stalker
Pump (17)
1 Vulshok Morningstar
1 Vulshok Gauntlets
1 True-Faith Censer
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Leonin Scimitar
1 Heavy Mattock
1 Flayer Husk
1 Copper Carapace
1 Bonesplitter
1 Bladed Bracers
1 Adventuring Gear
1 Cunning
1 Unstable Mutation
1 Spectral Flight
1 Leaden Fists
1 Eel Umbra
1 Piracy Charm
Creatures (12)
1 Trinket Mage
1 Delver of Secrets
1 Neurok Replica
1 Mulldrifter
1 Dream Stalker
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Archaeomancer
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Scrivener
1 Prescient Chimera
1 Halimar Wavewatch
1 Spire Golem
34 Island
1 Quicksand
1 Desert
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Darksteel Citadel
Countermagic (12)
1 Counterspell
1 Deprive
1 Condescend
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Dispel
1 Exclude
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Rewind
1 Cancel
1 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Negate
1 Psychic Barrier
Bounce/Tap/Removal (12)
1 Capsize
1 Gigadrowse
1 Rushing River
1 Narcolepsy
1 Hands of Binding
1 Flood
1 Repeal
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Withdraw
1 Snap
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Sigil of Sleep
1 Gush
1 Keep Watch
1 Brainstorm
1 Ophidian Eye
1 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Think Twice
1 Deep Analysis
1 Compulsive Research
1 Rhystic Study
1 Oona's Grace
1 Impulse
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needs dizzy spell and mystic remora, also cypher spells like last thoughts are good here
also agree that lawmage is generally better, my phone is being an ******** but if you check my sig you can find a lawmage list
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For some reason, this commander appeals to me a lot less. It's kind of silly, really. I might just look at something else entirely.
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If you think stalker is just cooler that's the most valid reason to play it IMO
Lawmage itself is actually worse than stalker in pretty much every way. +2/+1 is definitely not worth costing 2 more mana and getting blocked by flying and reach creatures. It's just that there are a lot of white cards that are really amazing for this deck/archetype, like way more efficient/bigger pumps, lifelink and/or vigilance, protection from black/red, some aura tutors, and artifact/enchantment recursion.
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Other mono blue: Peregrine Drake (Ghostly Flicker combo, highly tuned list available, also tier 1). Also Viral Drake is another "voltron" in mono blue.
Other voltron/aggro options: Marisi's Twinclaws (a bit like Kiln Fiend decks, BAM kill in two hits). Garruk's Packleader is probably the only viable (tier 1.5) "many big beats" deck you can play.
Other strong-to-decent + fun options: Crypt Rats, Mistmeadow Witch, most things that are U/B and run a half decent Commander (Baleful Strix might be #1), Wirewood Symbiote (ETB elves and tap effects abuse), Vizkopa Guildmage (it is strong and I know you like Pestilence), 5c control, various Ux combo (UR, UG and UW options exist, most involve the commander to some degree - none as strong as Peregrine Drake though).
Let me know if any of these piques your interest!
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I was rummaging through my collection for choice uncommons and I found Guttersnipe. I think it could make for a really good Mono-Red Control General. What do you think?
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Mono-red, mono-white and mono-brown are about the weakest choices for PDH in general, mostly for not having much of a hand after turn 5. Few generals can compensate. A deck that I think could be very strong as a control option though is Gelectrode. It's almost the same that you're going for with Guttersnipe, but it targets creatures rather than players only and coupled with the best burn you can take down titans or throngs of weenies in no time. Also you'll have access to blue - the Ghostly Flicker engine in particular. Does this seem interesting to you?
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Thanks again!
EDIT: Viashino Slaughtermaster. Seems like it could make for a good tri-colour general that focuses on General Damage. He's cheap to play, has Double Strike, and is in colours that have access to decent auras and ways to give him evasion.
I was also thinking about Devour creatures, mainly Marrow Chomper or Thunder-Thrash Elder. I think the Chomper would be pretty good because it gives access to two colours, and the life gain is a great way to get back into the game. Devour also encourages aristocrat-style decks, which are a personal favourite of mine. Thunder-Thrash is in a great colour for Devour as I could go with lots of Goblins.
Juniper Order Ranger also seems like a really strong Selesnya Tokens general, making all your 1/1s 2/2s and beefing himself up massively. In the same vein, Sigil Captain could really good too, if maybe a bit more challenging to build around.
Blazing Specter would be awesome, but it was only downgraded online.
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Juniper Order Ranger and Sigil Captain are indeed classic token generals that can do pretty well actually.
I've never seen anyone build Blazing Specter but IMO it's not OP at all as an uncommon and has an interesting mix of disruption and voltron that could be particularly interesting if you intend to play lots of 1-on-1.
I think all of these are good options but I feel most excited by the Slaughtermaster, mostly because the token decks largely build themselves.
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Pauper EDH is a really big challenge, when it comes to deck-building! Just finding enough good cards to fit 100 is hard enough, but then you have to start trying to decide between multiple mediocre cards... Really tricky!
1 Viashino Slaughtermaster
Pump (58)
1 Giant Growth
1 Rancor
1 Sheltering Word
1 Ranger's Guile
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Ancestral Mask
1 Blood Lust
1 Bonesplitter
1 Brute Force
1 Briar Shield
1 Brute Strength
1 Colossal Might
1 Dark Favor
1 Dragon Shadow
1 Ferocious Charge
1 Reckless Charge
1 Fists of the Anvil
1 Groundswell
1 Hammerhand
1 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Invigorate
1 Keldon Mantle
1 Madcap Skills
1 Mutagenic Growth
1 Phytoburst
1 Predator's Gambit
1 Rush of Adrenaline
1 Sinister Strength
1 Titanic Growth
1 Titan's Strength
1 Undying Evil
1 Unnatural Endurance
1 Unholy Strength
1 Deviant Glee
1 Furious Resistance
1 Seal of Strength
1 Seething Anger
1 Vampire's Bite
1 Errantry
1 Eternal Thirst
1 Forced Adaptation
1 Furor of the Bitten
1 Goblin War Paint
1 Gruesome Deformity
1 Inferno Fist
1 Maniacal Rage
1 Predatory Hunger
1 Predator's Strike
1 Sadistic Glee
1 Spider Umbra
1 Taste for Mayhem
1 Treetop Bracers
1 Deepwood Drummer
1 Llanowar Augur
1 Slaughterhorn
1 Rubblebelt Maaka
1 Bestial Fury
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning
1 Flame Slash
1 Flame Jab
1 Doom Blade
1 Tragic Slip
1 Dead Weight
1 Terminate
1 Stingscourger
Land (33)
6 Swamp
7 Forest
10 Mountain
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Manamorphose
1 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Gruul Guildgate
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Bloodfell Caves
1 Rugged Highlands
1 Jund Panorama
In goldfish testing, I've gotten several turn 4 kills with this deck, and one or two turn 3. In a multiplayer game, it would leave me with almost no hand and a medium-sized Slaughtermaster with some evasion. Seems good, but I'm just not sold on a lot of the pump spells that are sometimes just plain bad. I thought there were more Giant Growth variants out there!
1 Marrow Chomper
Creatures (35)
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Festering Goblin
1 Festering Newt
1 Shambling Goblin
1 Deathgreeter
1 Essence Warden
1 Typhoid Rats
1 Young Wolf
1 Thallid
1 Blisterpod
1 Tukatongue Thallid
1 Plagued Rusalka
1 Chatter of the Squirrel
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Thallid Shell-Dweller
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Perilous Myr
1 Nest Invader
1 Butcher Ghoul
1 Dripping-Tongue Zubera
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Nantuko Husk
1 Phyrexian Ghoul
1 Vampire Aristocrat
1 Scion of the Wild
1 Acorn Harvest
1 Kozilek's Predator
1 Ivy Lane Denizen
1 Scatter the Seeds
1 Sporemound
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Maul Splicer
1 Rancor
1 Vorrac Battlehorns
1 Fists of Ironwood
1 Seedling Charm
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Ranger's Guile
1 Sheltering Word
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Tainted Strike
1 Phyresis
1 Whispersilk Cloak
Removal (6)
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Victim of Night
1 Grasp of Darkness
1 Tragic Slip
Other (11)
1 Raven's Crime
1 Golgari Signet
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Growth Spasm
1 Night Soil
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Sign in Blood
1 Read the Bones
1 Grim Harvest
1 Syphon Mind
13 Forest
13 Swamp
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Khalni Garden
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Bojuka Bog
I've actually been very happy with the way this deck turned out. Is there any other card draw in black that I've missed? I'd like to replace Nihil Spellbomb. I've been able to get huge Chompers out and have it trample through, but usually it's better to just have an 11/11 or something around there to still have some creatures to block/attack with or to soak up Edicts. The lifegain off of this guy is ridiculous! Taking someone out in one shot with a Tainted Srike is going to feel amazing.
Some comments for either or both would be really appreciated.
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For example, Viashino for multiplayer can't be Giant Growth.dec. You should prioritize pump that stays on (like Bonesplitter) or trades 1-for-1 (like the umbra auras or cards like Vines of Vastwood). Cards with flashback or cards like Slaughterhorn that are easy to recur with black PDH staple engines Grim Harvest etc. are also worth it. Straight Giant Growth might not actually be good enough!
So you play this by fixing mana t1, drop Slaughtermaster, t3 - pump him with mana and attack the fastest developer. Develop mana and only commit sure cards like Bonesplitter to the board. Sandbag the 1-shot effects. Weaken the top dog, conserve cards, sculpt hand. Then when you have an opening, go for the kill in one turn and eliminate the biggest threat - without using so much resources that the next on the list becomes too problematic.
Look around a few other lists in your colors and examine the patterns to find more staples that might suit you. Of course, this advice is mainly for multi-player.
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Nihil spellbomb is a staple because it's cheap, replaces itself and so many decks use recursion as a source of card advantage and/or win condition.
If you are looking for more card draw in black, you don't have bitter revelation, but beyond that is where you will turn to recursion spells like recover and death denied with cycling/draw creatures like phyrexian rager, vulturous aven and street wraith. Also bequeathal and casting of bones seem usable with so much sacrifice stuff going on.
I do like the marrow chomper deck a lot, lifegain actually matters more in this format than I thought it would before I actually played some games. Also, gray merchant of asphodel is a hell of a guy. I've found crypt incursion and rotfeaster maggot to be surprisingly solid as well. Deathgreeter is probably an easy cut for any of those
I also recommend a bit more ramp, like I don't see any good reason for passing up golgari signet
vorrac battlehorns is savage for big voltron commanders
I agree that you should poke around other lists and look for staples, especially mana ramp, card draw, the best removal, and 2-for-1 creatures like wickerbough elder
As far as what cards to cut, the first thing on the chopping block should be all thallids, they are far too slow and awful even for multiplayer PDH
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Very sound advice all around.
I wanted a Giant Growth.dec, but it definitely won't be ideal for multiplayer (which is what we'll be playing). I'll have to take a closer look at all the power-pumping auras and see if anything would be just plain better. My first idea is Grave Servitude and Twisted Experiment, which I had originally left out because of the -1 tougness.
I considered Grim Harvest, but I have so few creatures that I wasn't sure it would be worth it. What do you think?
I'll definitely take a look around and see if I missed anything. I took a quick look in the primers thread, but it seems like the decks tagged there often aren't very well explored and never got much feedback. Very few of them look optimal, and often date back several years. Do you have any suggestions as to where I might find some good lists?
Pauper is huge, but the amount of cards that I would consider playable by Pauper standards is very limited. I would never consider playing something like Chatter of the Squirrel, but token shenanigans are somewhat limited when you can only have 1-ofs in a commons-only format. It just feels bad to have to stretch the playability so far.
I agree Nihil Spellbomb is a great card, but I play Night Soil and Crypt Incursion already, which I thought helped my strategy a bit more. Do you think it's worth cutting?
Thanks for mentioning Bitter Revelation. I ended up including Syphon Mind instead, as I know I'll be playing against 2-3 other players.
I'll make room for Rampant Growth and Golgari Signet. Even with all my fetches and duals, I was still running into problems pretty frequently. These mana rocks should help a lot. Thanks!
Vorrac Battlehorns is also a really good one. I'll make room for it now.
I'll cut Vitaspore Thallid and Deathspore Thallid, but I think I will keep the others. One is a 1-drop that makes tokens, which is pretty good, and the other is a 0/5 defender, which is a great thing to have making tokens for you.
I checked out your brews, and I like them all a lot. You're a really good deck-builder!
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omg stop I'm blushing
you're not so bad yourself
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It's important to say it when you think it!
Alright! I took the time to look through a lot of different lists I found a few cards that would be really great in my decks. After lots of testing, I decided to go with Marrow Chomper, as he seems a lot more multi-player friendly and is a lot easier to play for now and I have almost all the cards for the deck already.
A lot of green decks I saw are playing Primal Huntbeast. I understand that Hexproof is powerful, but a staple? I'm not convinced. If anyone can shed light on this guy, that would be great.
A card I'm thinking about including is Yavimaya Elder. I'm not sure what I should cut.
Since I cut the Thallids, I lost all my Saproling synergy, so this allowed me to include better stand-alone cards instead, which really helped the deck.
I included Typhoid Rats and Plagued Rusalka, but I'll have to test and see if they are worth it. What do you think?
I'd also like to replace Sylvok Lifestaff with another equipment that grants evasion instead of lifegain (which this deck has a lot of already). I'm torn between Bladed Pinions and Fleetfeather Sandals. On one hand, First Strike would be useful on a lot of smaller minions, and potentially save Chompy from Deathtouch creatures (I could definitely see Winged Coatl as a general being very strong, as well as the ubiquitous Baleful Strix). On the other hand, Haste gets an extra attack in if I'm already at seven mana, which speeds up my clock (often a 2-3 turn clock) tremendously. Any thoughts on these?
1 Marrow Chomper
Creatures (35)
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Festering Goblin
1 Festering Newt
1 Shambling Goblin
1 Deathgreeter
1 Essence Warden
1 Typhoid Rats
1 Young Wolf
1 Thallid
1 Blisterpod
1 Tukatongue Thallid
1 Plagued Rusalka
1 Chatter of the Squirrel
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Thallid Shell-Dweller
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Perilous Myr
1 Nest Invader
1 Butcher Ghoul
1 Dripping-Tongue Zubera
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Nantuko Husk
1 Phyrexian Ghoul
1 Vampire Aristocrat
1 Scion of the Wild
1 Acorn Harvest
1 Kozilek's Predator
1 Ivy Lane Denizen
1 Scatter the Seeds
1 Sporemound
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Maul Splicer
1 Rancor
1 Vorrac Battlehorns
1 Fists of Ironwood
1 Seedling Charm
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Ranger's Guile
1 Sheltering Word
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Tainted Strike
1 Phyresis
1 Whispersilk Cloak
Removal (6)
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Victim of Night
1 Grasp of Darkness
1 Tragic Slip
Other (11)
1 Raven's Crime
1 Golgari Signet
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Growth Spasm
1 Night Soil
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Sign in Blood
1 Read the Bones
1 Grim Harvest
1 Syphon Mind
13 Forest
13 Swamp
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Khalni Garden
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Bojuka Bog
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Primal Huntbeast - not for you
Yavimaya Elder - yes, staple, and very nice for you
Typhoid Rats and Plagued Rusalka - crap, cut them
Sylvok Lifestaff - keep it, good synergy with your deck, just make sure to put that life to better use (see below)
Fleetfeather Sandals > Bladed Pinions
As for other staples you're missing that you absolutely should be running
Crypt Rats, Pestilence, Evincar's Justice - these sweepers are a good reason to play black and even better with life gain
Dimir House Guard (finds Pestilence/Justice etc.), Shred Memory and possibly Brainspoil (depending on targets, Urborg Uprising is a good inclusion if you do)
Chainer's Edict, Ashes to Ashes (best removal in the format, and with your life gain...)
Wickerbough Elder, Mold Shambler and similar removal on a stick are format staples and extra good for you because it's removal you can eat!
So, what to cut? Things I think look weak as a snap judgment:
Festering Goblin, Newt and shambling goblin (to small effect for a PDH card)
Typhoid Rats
Thallid
plagued rusalka
shell dweller
carrion feeder, husk, ghoul and aristocrat - competes with your commander for resources that will be scarcer when you start running better cards
scion of the wild - no, you do not want to overextend in this format, play a few value creatures and eat them, sweep the opposition while your fatty survives, c'est tout!
Ivy Lane Denizen - without persistent creatures, and even with them, this is meh
Your pump/protection suite is decent but you're missing Broken Fall.
Your removal suite shows signs of 60 card pauper thinking over PDH thinking The scarce sweepers available rules the format! Consider not running a piece of removal if it can't at least kill 2 x 2/2 creatures, or a throng of 1/1.
I think there's room still to change about 12-15 cards at least, before fine tuning can begin. Your mana and draw package looks about right.
Where is Phyrexian Ranger and Liliana's Specter? These are black format staples and seem perfect for your deck.
EDIT: Haha, Winged Coatl was actually the first PDH deck I built. It revolved around deathtouch + viridian longbow and the cards that go with it. It's a strong combo for PDH. Avenging Druid was an all star in the deck, powering up massive capsizes.
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lolol
Anyway I haven't played your deck but I suspect dorks that keep you at (or above) card parity/have other effects are better than dorks that put another dork in play. I would definitely run sylvan ranger and phyrexian rager, probably even more like civic wayfinder, pilgrim's eye, maybe even stuff like black cat, abyssal gatekeeper
there is probably such a thing as being too durdly but I haven't really found it mana efficiency is always critical too but I think you have more small, cheap effects than necessary, like basically all your 1 cmc creatures that aren't mana dorks. It may seem too durdly but I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to play those durdle dorks, eat one with vulturous aven, then eat the aven and whatever else with Chompy, and bring it all back with a big death denied, for instance. Ugh god yes #mydurdleaddiction
I don't think sweepers are as critical as urdjur does but it's a good idea. I also agree that slots occupied by vampire aristocrat and similar guys could be put to much better use
I still like the deck a lot, keep on keepin' on
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definitely recommend:
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I feel a bit unsure about the Mass Removal. This deck is basically the reason why other people should be running mass removal. Maybe a single copy of Pestilence wouldn't be so bad?
I'll be taking out most of the cards Urdjur suggested.
Although I agree that in the beginning, the sacrifice outlets kind of take away from the Commander, they are extremely useful for after the commander has Devoured a bunch of creatures. I'll often find myself building up a huge army again, and I needed another sink to deal massive damage. They can be as dangerous as the Commander itself in a lot of cases. I'll be cutting Carrion Feeder, but I'll try keeping the other three for now.
The same goes for Scion of the Wild, but he's good at almost every stage of the game, getting in for a lot of damage before the Chompy comes down or getting huge later in the game when I've built up again. He could be bad in a board wipe situation, though.
So my cuts at this time are Typhoid Rats, Plagued Rusalka, Thallid, Carrion Feeder, Ivy Lane Denizen, Dripping-Tongue Zubera, Butcher Ghoul, Festering Goblin, and Maul Splicer.
Going in, we have Ashes to Ashes, Farhaven Elf, Yavimaya Elder, Scion Summoner, Liliana's Specter, Phyrexian Rager, Eyeless Watcher and Fleetfeather Sandals.
Stuff I still want to make room for: Sylvan Ranger, Broken Fall, Pyknite (how good is this, exactly?), possibly Pestilence, and Mold Shambler.
I'm guessing further cuts should probably be Thallid Shell-Dweller, and then both Blisterpod and Tukatongue Thallid, since they don't come with extra bodies, but rather replace themselves. Same goes for Young Wolf, but he seems a cut above the others.
I also wanted to mention my MVPs in testing. Stupidly enough, Marrow Chomper itself is really, really good. I can't stress what a difference the lifegain makes and it is incredibly hard to deal with because it's often so huge, is a zombie and is a black card. Next, I knew Sprout Swarm was a good card, but it's just disgustingly good in this deck. Night Soil really overperformed for me every time I drew it. I could often get 3-4 Saprolings as soon as I played it, which felt just broken. Lastly, I just added Sheltering Word because it gave Hexproof, but it turns out it's probably the best Commander-saver in the deck, often netting me a 11+ life boost on top of saving my Commander. Really good stuff!
1 Marrow Chomper
Creatures (33)
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Festering Newt
1 Shambling Goblin
1 Deathgreeter
1 Essence Warden
1 Young Wolf
1 Blisterpod
1 Tukatongue Thallid
1 Chatter of the Squirrel
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Thallid Shell-Dweller
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Perilous Myr
1 Nest Invader
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Scion Summoner
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Phyrexian Rager
1 Nantuko Husk
1 Phyrexian Ghoul
1 Vampire Aristocrat
1 Scion of the Wild
1 Eyeless Watcher
1 Acorn Harvest
1 Kozilek's Predator
1 Ivy Lane Denizen
1 Scatter the Seeds
1 Sporemound
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Rancor
1 Vorrac Battlehorns
1 Fists of Ironwood
1 Seedling Charm
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Ranger's Guile
1 Sheltering Word
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Tainted Strike
1 Phyresis
1 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Fleetfeather Sandals
Removal (7)
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Victim of Night
1 Grasp of Darkness
1 Tragic Slip
1 Ashes to Ashes
Other (11)
1 Raven's Crime
1 Golgari Signet
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Growth Spasm
1 Night Soil
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Sign in Blood
1 Read the Bones
1 Grim Harvest
1 Syphon Mind
13 Forest
13 Swamp
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Khalni Garden
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Bojuka Bog
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To me this speaks volumes that something is not right here. It is a mistake to build a PDH deck where you care much what happens to your creatures. This tells me cards like Young Wolf aren't good enough even in your deck. You know, many wouldn't hesitate to run Phyrexian Rager on its own in PDH. It draws a card and ideally trades with a creature - and that is fine by itself. You have a little advantage in your general, you can put it to better use and go plus on the life gain etc. But something is very wrong when you get so dependent on eating your creatures that you find your general isn't enough. You could easily build this deck to be immune to sweepers, indeed even benefit from them while wrecking your opponents' boards.
You know what deals massive damage together with your general? Pestilence. At least include Dimir House Guard to find it, if you don't want Evincar's Justice too. And drop every vanilla creature that you'd only run to devour it. The card quality in PDH is excellent, once you know what you're looking for. Metalevolence comment about going for durdling is spot on in my book.
Pyknite is probably better than all the army-in-a-can cards that just feature more vanilla weenies to feed. But it might still not be good enough for the final cut.
You will seriously need more recursion. Lots more. 5-6 cards that return creatures from your grave would be good. Reaping the Graves is killer. Death Denied isn't bad either. Actually, mass recursion might be better for you than Grim Harvest. Why pay 5 for 1 card when you eat 3-4 dudes at a time regularly?
I would have guessed Sprout Swarm and Night Soil would be MVPs for you (not so much Sheltering Word though - cool!). Notice how all of them has CMC 2? I'm telling you, you should run Shred Memory! It's EDH and you're in black, tutors man!
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I currently have 9 pieces of ramp. Almost all of them involve creatures, which is good. Not to mention a lot of the tokens can be sacced for mana. I should be ok without Cultivate, right?
I don't understand what you're saying here, I'm sorry! I think you may have skipped a word or something, and I can't make much sense of the rest of the paragraph. Are you saying I should care more about what happens to my creatures? I don't think I'm overly dependent on eating my creatures, it's just a strong part of the strategy. I think it would be completely valid to go wide with a large amount of tokens in the right circumstances.
I think it's important to note what Marrow Chomper's number look like in an average game. There is little to no difference between an 11/11 Chomper and a 19/19 Chomper. They both win the game in two hits. So, why bother sacrificing more than four creatures to it? Of course this depends on the board state and what kind of evasion I have access to, but generally, four creatures being fed to the general are enough. The rest can be fodder for the other creatures, are chump blockers, or are used to go wide.
I guess I'll try running Pestilence and stuff, but I don't quite understand how this won't just destroy my own board state and put me in a worse position. I'm just a little lost here.
Death Denied is actually probably way better than Grim Harvest. Urborg Uprising is probably a good idea too! I'm not sure if I'd be able to get a lot of mileage out of Reaping the Graves, maybe 1-2 bodies at most...
Good thinking with Shred Memory. I couldn't really think of anything I'd really want to fetch with it, but I guess the 2-drop slot is powerful enough!
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Your previous lists have included vanilla creatures that are there only for "eating", that don't bring card parity on their own. Young Wolf is a good example of this, whereas Phyrexian Rager is not. The wolf pretty much needs to be eaten to be useful, while the rager doesn't. It has already replaced itself, and if you can trade with it that's good and if not you can always eat it.
The problem with wolf-type cards as you note is that you have very many creatures and can only eat so many. I'm all for the 11/11 chomper plan, but if you feel bad about a position where you have an 11/11 chomper and nothing to eat your overly abundant weenies, this tells me you're focusing to much on creatures in general and creatures that need eating in particular.
I think the best approach here would be to categorize all the "edible" creatures into different card quality categories depending on their mechanics. I would rate the categories thusly:
Priority #1: These are creatures that replace themselves for a decent cost such as Phyrexian Rager, Farhaven Elf, Liliana's Specter, Cadaver Imp and Elvish Visionary (probably even Pyknite). You should probably run every black and green common creature that does this before any other creatures in the deck.
Priority #2: These are creatures that are rather good on their own, common PDH options but even better in your deck for being edible creatures. For instance, most other golgari PDH decks would never ever run Fyndhorn Elves over Cultivate, but you might (in fact, I think you should run both - you should run acceleration that gives CA like Cultivate, is a good creature like 1 CMC elves, or best of all both such as Farhaven Elf. You should not run stuff like Golgari Signet). Cards like Sakura Tribe Elder, Mold Shambler and Perilous Myr fits in this category too. Festering Newt and friends definetely doesn't - it would never be considered in any PDH deck.
Priority #3: These would be cards that produce multiple bodies for chomper to eat. Honestly, I'm not sure I would run anything in this category except Sprout Swarm and Night Soil. Sporemound can come too I suppose. The definitive line probably goes somewhere between Kozilek's Predator (playable) and Eyeless Watcher (terrible without chomper). Chomper can eat anything, so there's little reason to run creatures JUST for eating IMO.
It depends both on how you build your deck and how you play it. Quick kills is not a winning strategy in multi-player PDH. That's good for golgari, because it is king of durdling. Rather than running 33 creatures, try running 25 creatures, 5 mass recursion and 3 tutors. Think of your deck as a repetitive cycle that revolves around the commander:
1) Play 4 value creatures while developing mana. Possibly some instant speed removal if attacked.
2) Drop chomper and eat them, you now "only" have a 11/11 on your board.
3) Use the rest of your spells to protect chomper, give it evasion, and sweep the opposition. Sandbag any creatures and recursion spells you top deck in this face.
4) Eventually chomper dies or you win. If it dies, drop the creatures you have top-decked and recur the best early dudes you ate initially. Replay chomper and eat 4 dudes again, gaining incremental advantage from recuring creatures like Elvish Visionary.
Repeat steps 2-4 until you win the game against all opponents.
This strategy is not at odds with sweepers, in fact it is benefitted by them. You should run creatures and other spells in numbers that support this strategy. I doubt more than 25 creatures will be needed. Hope this explains better what I'm recommending.
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I think a few multi-body cards should be run for consistency's sake, they will ensure you have enough creatures to make a 9/9 or 11/11 chomper with more possible draws. I like nest invader, scion summoner, kozilek's predator and eyeless watcher, they all come down sooner than chomper, are actual creatures that can be recurred (unlike, say, call the scions) and being able to use eldrazi spawn for mana is sometimes very useful. I also think scatter the seeds is a good option as it can be cast before chomper as long as you have something to convoke with. And I like acorn harvest's flashback. Anything at 5cc or more would have to be really amazing for me to want it, I don't think Sporemound should make the cut.
Penumbra spider should be played here, it's good on its own, and this deck can struggle with fliers. With recursion this guy can block ascended lawmage for days. Or you just use it as chomper fodder and enjoy your 2/4 tokens.
I also think wickerbough elder and nantuko vigilante should be played, it's unfortunate they aren't cheaper than your commander (when used to naturalize) but they are still 2-for-1s with decent bodies you can recur. Also we have enough green bodies that gleeful sabotage starts to look good.Your last list runs no removal for artifacts and enchantments, which are effects I've always found valuable.
I'd say more but I'm basically just reiterating my list from tappedout at this point lol.
To make deck space, I agree that shambling goblin and festering newt are simply not good. Perilous my is much more likely to find a target but even that probably isn't good enough. I'm also really dubious of deathgreeter.
By the way, if you guys have any interest in my Crypt Champion deck any input would be appreciated. It's a goofy voltron + value that's surprisingly more effective than it looks, just like Chomper!
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So, back to the drawing board, I did a bit of searching and tried to find lots of value cards. I also found this list, which I found was very inspiring. Is Wirewood Herald and an elf tool box worth it in this deck?
What are your thoughts on Multani's Acolyte, Striped Bears and co., Selvala's Enforcer and Citanul Woodreaders?
I now have a crap-ton of land-fetch. Do I have too much?
Are creatures that only have an effect when they die not good enough? Dutiful Attendant seems to fit the deck fairly well, as well as Viridian Emissary, but it's difficult to say.
Since I'm going for the value plan, I'd like to include Evincar's Justice as well.
I'm keeping a couple token producers that I felt were too strong to pass on.
I always had Gleeful Sabotage in the deck, and I think it's still a really strong card, despite not having as many tokens.
1 Marrow Chomper
Creatures (30)
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Essence Warden
1 Nest Invader
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Night Soil
1 Viridian Emissary
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Dutiful Attendant
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Civic Wayfinder
1 Borderland Ranger
1 Wood Elves
1 Phyrexian Rager
1 Pyknite
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Acorn Harvest
1 Kozilek's Predator
1 Penumbra Spider
1 Vulturous Aven
1 Mold Shambler
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Sporemound
Pump/Protection/Evasion (12)
1 Rancor
1 Ranger's Guile
1 Seedling Charm
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Tainted Strike
1 Phyresis
1 Fists of Ironwood
1 Sheltering Word
1 Vorrac Battlehorns
1 Fleetfeather Sandals
1 Whispersilk Cloak
Removal/Discard/Enchantment/Artifact/Graveyard hate (11)
1 Tragic Slip
1 Raven's Crime
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Snuff Out
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Victim of Night
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Syphon Mind
1 Pestilence
1 Sign in Blood
1 Reaping the Graves
1 Death Denied
1 Shred Memory
1 Read the Bones
1 Growth Spasm
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Cultivate
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Urborg Uprising
Lands (36)
13 Forest
13 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Khalni Garden
1 Command Tower
1 Golgari Rot Farm
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio