What happens if you turn Viridian Longbow into a creature with Sydri, does it retain its ability to tap for 1 damage?
Negative. Viridian Longbow grants the creature it is equipped to the ability to deal 1 damage. It does not have that ability itself. Turning it into a creature will just make it fall off.
Of note: you can animate a Razor Boomerang in response to its ability and give it deathtouch and it will kill the think it targets. It's janky as hell, but it does work. A similar trick works with Shuriken and Sword of Fire and Ice, though in the later case it will fall off the creature it is equipped to.
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Thanks for that. A pity the Boomerang is so mana intensive, that would be 8 mana for a single cycle.
There must be some way for Sydri + artifact to machine gun creatures. So far I found blasting station, but at a cost of 3 + creature per pop it doesn't seem all that efficient.
With Caltrops she kills every attacking creature and gets through hexproof. Not sure how much more machine gun you need.
Personally, I'm going to try building some sort of RB sac/aggro deck around Tymaret, the Murder King. There's just a lot of value you can get from Black sac effects.
One opinion that I'll put forth is that without some limitations on deckbuilding this format will probably grow stale rather quickly. Some lists I see already look like the same thing that is played in EDH just with the higher cost cards cut out.
In my opinion it would be interesting if a limitation on rares was imposed, one or a few per deck to shake up the EDH deck building tropes and to have less overwhelmingly good stuff in any single deck.
There's already a pretty massive limitation (no card costing more than 3). Most of the decks I've seen have been closer to singleton Legacy decks than to normal EDH decks.
Any thoughts on Alesha, Who Smiles at Death? i would like to know if there's any good combo on that colour scheme for a tiny leader deck with her
I can't think of anything off of the top of my head that infinites or one-shots with her (like Master of Cruelties in regular EDH), but you can churn out value with little ETB/sac dudes, and you can lock people on mana by recurring Fulminator Mage every turn.
Any thoughts on Alesha, Who Smiles at Death? i would like to know if there's any good combo on that colour scheme for a tiny leader deck with her
I can't think of anything off of the top of my head that infinites or one-shots with her (like Master of Cruelties in regular EDH), but you can churn out value with little ETB/sac dudes, and you can lock people on mana by recurring Fulminator Mage every turn.
Although it doesn't count as a combo, i came across a cool silver bullet engine via Sunforger and Mistveil Plains that can be used on her colours. Repeatable Swords, helix, etc sounds good
SO I've been seeing this format picking up steam but have yet to play it. I threw a janky ambassador laquatus mill deck and then realized i could build a normal rock deck with anafenza, the foremost from my modern stuff just throwing in a few legacy cards like swords to plowshares and hymn to tourach. Missing the original dual lands is a little frustrating but I dont expect many people to have them.
What I'm wondering is the extent to which this format has already been solved. I feel like there are only about 10-12 plausibly good generals - and that the top tier is probably geist of saint traft voltron and vendillion clique control. I could also see a burn deck possibly working although I don't know what general it would use, and a tribal deck - most likely kira merfolk or ezuri elves having potential. I could also see an outside shot at some kind of athreos aggro deck and a laquatus/sygg mill deck.
Anything else just seems cutesy and not likely to be as good. Alesha, Yasova, Animar, Marath etc etc. I'd love to be wrong and for the format to actually accomodate lots of cool decks, but I was stung last time by pauper commander being a psychatog's paradise and having wasted my time building 2 decks that could in no way compete with tog (or lawmage).
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I can tell you now that my Alesha deck beats both decks you mentioned. It has nothing to do with the general either. In fact I have noticed that the generals are rather irrelevant for the most part. Everything is very close to the same power level.
White is by far the best color in this format because of the density of creatures with protection from red and black.
Not really an infinite combo, but I'm playing Geist of Saint Traft as my Tiny leader and Ephara's Enlightenment has been great. Attach it, swing with Geist, Angel comes into play, bounce the enchantment back your hand. Rinse and repeat lol
I can tell you now that my Alesha deck beats both decks you mentioned. It has nothing to do with the general either. In fact I have noticed that the generals are rather irrelevant for the most part. Everything is very close to the same power level.
White is by far the best color in this format because of the density of creatures with protection from red and black.
I'd like to believe you on this but can you explain how? I am imagining a clique deck just counterspells or bounces everything you do and then when they're comfortable they throw down a clique eot and take you out. You might kill the clique a couple times before you die, but in the end all their cards say "no" while only some of your cards remain relevant as the game progresses. I would assume the only way you beat a clique deck consistently is by being the 1cmc zoo deck, and that clique then runs ratchet bomb and engineered explosives as counters to that deck in the board.
likewise geist i assume loads up on swords, spirit mantle, steel of the godhead, and removal/bounce/counters. How is your RBW deck doing something better than this?
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I'd like to believe you on this but can you explain how? I am imagining a clique deck just counterspells or bounces everything you do and then when they're comfortable they throw down a clique eot and take you out. You might kill the clique a couple times before you die, but in the end all their cards say "no" while only some of your cards remain relevant as the game progresses. I would assume the only way you beat a clique deck consistently is by being the 1cmc zoo deck, and that clique then runs ratchet bomb and engineered explosives as counters to that deck in the board.
likewise geist i assume loads up on swords, spirit mantle, steel of the godhead, and removal/bounce/counters. How is your RBW deck doing something better than this?
Crackling Doom seems like a good answer to a Voltron'd Hexproof dude. There's also a number of other Edict effects available.
I'd like to believe you on this but can you explain how? I am imagining a clique deck just counterspells or bounces everything you do and then when they're comfortable they throw down a clique eot and take you out. You might kill the clique a couple times before you die, but in the end all their cards say "no" while only some of your cards remain relevant as the game progresses. I would assume the only way you beat a clique deck consistently is by being the 1cmc zoo deck, and that clique then runs ratchet bomb and engineered explosives as counters to that deck in the board.
likewise geist i assume loads up on swords, spirit mantle, steel of the godhead, and removal/bounce/counters. How is your RBW deck doing something better than this?
Crackling Doom seems like a good answer to a Voltron'd Hexproof dude. There's also a number of other Edict effects available.
I had the same thought with Dreadnought yesterday. I spent way too much time contemplating the best way to set up a manifest into it, or backdooring into a stifle or vision charm charm. I have a feeling the deck would mostly be cantrips, since relying on just a dreadnought to win isn't a great strategy (though not hard with enlightened tutor).
Instead, I got sidetracked with 3 different decks. First was Alesha, which actually seems a bit obnoxious when you can recur fulminator mage, chittering rats, and fiend hunter. Honestly, Vendilion Clique doesn't seem like it doesn't do a whole lot against the deck. That's the deck I've actually built, but my other two ideas are Xira Arien/ Jund Ramp. Being able to play domri rade and apocalypse hydra seems fun, and the general isn't that bad since it draws you cards. I am quite new to the format, actually haven't even played a game of Tiny edh yet, so I don't even know how the local meta will shape up. Anyways, the third deck I was thinking of is U/R Nin. It will be artifact based, using stuff like staff of domination, basalt monolith, power artifact, tinker, etc to just do stupid things. There's actually quite a lot of broken things that can be jammed into the deck. That being said, Metalworker is still banned unlike in the normal format.
The thing I'm on the fence about is how seriously to take the format. EDH is a 'casual format', but that can mean anything. Will people frown when I play dark confidant, which seems nuts in the format? I own duals and other legacy/modern staples, so will I look like a try-hard for playing with them, just because it's a 50 card format? That being said, I'm not exactly going out of my way to buy an imperial recruiter which seems like it can be broken in a lot of decks (like alesha), I'm just using cards I have laying around. And for the record, I do play pauper commander as well (Lorescale Coatl, Dimir Guildmage, Cloudgoat Ranger are by 3 generals).
I think Tiny Leaders is supposed to be a competitive 1v1 format, so trying as hard as you want should not be frowned upon.
yep. this is not edh where there's any question about playing casual or competitive, tiny leaders is a normal format to be played competitively by default.
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[quote from="twicky_kid »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/variant-commander-decklists/585696-tiny-leaders-general-discussion?comment=22"]likewise geist i assume loads up on swords, spirit mantle, steel of the godhead, and removal/bounce/counters. How is your RBW deck doing something better than this?
They cannot counter everything all the time. It isn't hard to bait counter spells and so forth. Besides if you want to you can just cast your general over and over to remove their counter spells. They cannot block elesha and is a CA engine on her own. They have to deal with her. Being countered 1-2 times is usually enough to break through. My side board is also full of hand disruption. For some reason Mind Shatter and Rakdos's Return are legal. Cavern of Souls on humans breaks their deck as well. I only have 1 creature in the deck that is not human.
My deck is set up with all protection from color creatures. Mostly protection from red and black. This turns all my red sweepers into one sided board wipes. Giest does nothing vs my deck. Even if he does get on the board most of my guys have first strike also. I also have a few other controlling elements in Culling Scales and Porphyry Nodes.
Is there a list of playable leaders in some colour combinations? I cant find one for grixis combinations (yeah, going for storm deck tho not sure if it works without manamorphose)
Are cards like cunning wish, burning wish, death wish legal?
The wishes are indeed legal.
If you are looking for a grixis general the only one that fits the bill is Tetsuo Umezawa from Legends.
Is there a list of playable leaders in some colour combinations? I cant find one for grixis combinations (yeah, going for storm deck tho not sure if it works without manamorphose)
Are cards like cunning wish, burning wish, death wish legal?
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StaffFirst Topic: Combos!
What combos have you found in the format? What generals have you best found to support those combos?
Several of the would-be top combos (Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest, Painter's Servant/Grindstone) are understandably banned, but there are still a few decent options out there. Here's what I've found.
Sword of the Meek + Thopter Foundry - Repeated 1/1's and lifegain for 1 mana each, can go infinite with Ashnod's Altar/Phyrexian Altar/Time Sieve/. Ideal for Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Presence of Gond + Midnight Guard/Sunstrike Legionnaire - Infinite 1/1's
Thraben Doomsayer/Presence of Gond + Intruder Alarm - Infinite 1/1's. These two combos work together pretty well, as there's some overlap. Ideal in Jenara, Asura of War/Angus Mackenzie
Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage/Vampire Hexmage - 20/20 indestructible flier. Fits ideally in something green for Crop Rotation, Life from the Loam and similar effects. Yasova Dragonclaw, perhaps?
Staff of Domination + Priest of Titania/Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary/Elvish Archdruid - Draw your deck, gain infinite life, make infinite mana. Should be a guaranteed win, but takes a bit of set-up (5 elves or 5 forests). Ideal in Ezuri, Renegade Leader, as you can then infinitely overrun your dudes and win on the spot.
What else have you guys got?
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StaffNegative. Viridian Longbow grants the creature it is equipped to the ability to deal 1 damage. It does not have that ability itself. Turning it into a creature will just make it fall off.
Of note: you can animate a Razor Boomerang in response to its ability and give it deathtouch and it will kill the think it targets. It's janky as hell, but it does work. A similar trick works with Shuriken and Sword of Fire and Ice, though in the later case it will fall off the creature it is equipped to.
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With Caltrops she kills every attacking creature and gets through hexproof. Not sure how much more machine gun you need.
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Aww yes, the premier Pauper combo.
Personally, I'm going to try building some sort of RB sac/aggro deck around Tymaret, the Murder King. There's just a lot of value you can get from Black sac effects.
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StaffThere's already a pretty massive limitation (no card costing more than 3). Most of the decks I've seen have been closer to singleton Legacy decks than to normal EDH decks.
As far as Cloudstone Curio combos, you can Chain between any two of Cloud of Faeries, any Kobold, or Burning-Tree Emissary to get infinite storm and then Grapeshot/Storm Entity out. This seems especially good in Animar, where you can get infinite mana and counters on Animar via Cloud of Faeries bouncing.
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StaffI can't think of anything off of the top of my head that infinites or one-shots with her (like Master of Cruelties in regular EDH), but you can churn out value with little ETB/sac dudes, and you can lock people on mana by recurring Fulminator Mage every turn.
Vampire Hexmage/Thespians' Stage + Dark Depths is a decent combo that fits in her colors, and the Hexmage is a good Alesha target as well. Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour + Sac outlets is another good one, with Teysa being a good Alesha target. Goblin Sharpshooter + anything that grants Deathtouch is a good board lock.
Outside of Alesha colors, there's some other good combos available:
Kitchen Finks + Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Sac outlet = infinite life. Can use any other cheap persist creature with a meaningful sac outlet for infinite <whatever> as well. Use Phyrexian Altar for a kill with Marath, Will of the Wild
Saffi Eriksdotter + Loyal Retainers gives you infinite ETB/dies triggers to gain infinite life with Soul Sisters or kill with Blood Artist, or make an infinitely large Champion of the Parish or a billion Xathrid Necromancer tokens tapped.
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Although it doesn't count as a combo, i came across a cool silver bullet engine via Sunforger and Mistveil Plains that can be used on her colours. Repeatable Swords, helix, etc sounds good
What I'm wondering is the extent to which this format has already been solved. I feel like there are only about 10-12 plausibly good generals - and that the top tier is probably geist of saint traft voltron and vendillion clique control. I could also see a burn deck possibly working although I don't know what general it would use, and a tribal deck - most likely kira merfolk or ezuri elves having potential. I could also see an outside shot at some kind of athreos aggro deck and a laquatus/sygg mill deck.
Anything else just seems cutesy and not likely to be as good. Alesha, Yasova, Animar, Marath etc etc. I'd love to be wrong and for the format to actually accomodate lots of cool decks, but I was stung last time by pauper commander being a psychatog's paradise and having wasted my time building 2 decks that could in no way compete with tog (or lawmage).
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White is by far the best color in this format because of the density of creatures with protection from red and black.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
I'd like to believe you on this but can you explain how? I am imagining a clique deck just counterspells or bounces everything you do and then when they're comfortable they throw down a clique eot and take you out. You might kill the clique a couple times before you die, but in the end all their cards say "no" while only some of your cards remain relevant as the game progresses. I would assume the only way you beat a clique deck consistently is by being the 1cmc zoo deck, and that clique then runs ratchet bomb and engineered explosives as counters to that deck in the board.
likewise geist i assume loads up on swords, spirit mantle, steel of the godhead, and removal/bounce/counters. How is your RBW deck doing something better than this?
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StaffCrackling Doom seems like a good answer to a Voltron'd Hexproof dude. There's also a number of other Edict effects available.
I'm intrigued by the idea of a UWG deck that runs a bunch of manifest cards, Illusionary Mask, Torpor Orb/Hushwing Gryff, Stifle/Trickbind, some deck stacking effects and Worldly Tutor types, and then your standard suite of great targets for these things like Phyrexian Dreadnought, Hooded Hydra, Master of Pearls, Hunted Phantasm, etc.
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I had the same thought with Dreadnought yesterday. I spent way too much time contemplating the best way to set up a manifest into it, or backdooring into a stifle or vision charm charm. I have a feeling the deck would mostly be cantrips, since relying on just a dreadnought to win isn't a great strategy (though not hard with enlightened tutor).
Instead, I got sidetracked with 3 different decks. First was Alesha, which actually seems a bit obnoxious when you can recur fulminator mage, chittering rats, and fiend hunter. Honestly, Vendilion Clique doesn't seem like it doesn't do a whole lot against the deck. That's the deck I've actually built, but my other two ideas are Xira Arien/ Jund Ramp. Being able to play domri rade and apocalypse hydra seems fun, and the general isn't that bad since it draws you cards. I am quite new to the format, actually haven't even played a game of Tiny edh yet, so I don't even know how the local meta will shape up. Anyways, the third deck I was thinking of is U/R Nin. It will be artifact based, using stuff like staff of domination, basalt monolith, power artifact, tinker, etc to just do stupid things. There's actually quite a lot of broken things that can be jammed into the deck. That being said, Metalworker is still banned unlike in the normal format.
The thing I'm on the fence about is how seriously to take the format. EDH is a 'casual format', but that can mean anything. Will people frown when I play dark confidant, which seems nuts in the format? I own duals and other legacy/modern staples, so will I look like a try-hard for playing with them, just because it's a 50 card format? That being said, I'm not exactly going out of my way to buy an imperial recruiter which seems like it can be broken in a lot of decks (like alesha), I'm just using cards I have laying around. And for the record, I do play pauper commander as well (Lorescale Coatl, Dimir Guildmage, Cloudgoat Ranger are by 3 generals).
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yep. this is not edh where there's any question about playing casual or competitive, tiny leaders is a normal format to be played competitively by default.
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They cannot counter everything all the time. It isn't hard to bait counter spells and so forth. Besides if you want to you can just cast your general over and over to remove their counter spells. They cannot block elesha and is a CA engine on her own. They have to deal with her. Being countered 1-2 times is usually enough to break through. My side board is also full of hand disruption. For some reason Mind Shatter and Rakdos's Return are legal. Cavern of Souls on humans breaks their deck as well. I only have 1 creature in the deck that is not human.
My deck is set up with all protection from color creatures. Mostly protection from red and black. This turns all my red sweepers into one sided board wipes. Giest does nothing vs my deck. Even if he does get on the board most of my guys have first strike also. I also have a few other controlling elements in Culling Scales and Porphyry Nodes.
The wishes are indeed legal.
If you are looking for a grixis general the only one that fits the bill is Tetsuo Umezawa from Legends.
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StaffWishes are legal as there is a 10-card sideboard.
Available Generals by Color Combination (omitting banned ones and unplayable ones like Haakon, Stromgald Scourge):
White: Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Isamaru, Hound of Konda, Kataki, War's Wage, Kemba, Kha Regent, Kentaro, the Smiling Cat, Lieutenant Kirtar, Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero, Mangara of Corondor, Masako the Humorless, Mikaeus, the Lunarch, Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo, Orim, Samite Healer, Oriss, Samite Guardian, Pang Tong, "Young Phoenix", Pianna, Nomad Captain, Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant, Sensei Golden-Tail, Soraya the Falconer, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Tivadar of Thorn
Blue: Ambassador Laquatus, Barrin, Master Wizard, Ertai, Wizard Adept, Kami of the Cresecent Moon, KIra, Great Glass-Spinner, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, Lady Sun, Muzzio, Visionary Architect, Rayne, Academy Chancellor, Thada Adel, Acquisitor, Thassa, God of the Sea, Vendilion Clique, Zhuge Jin, Wu Strategist
Black: Kiku, Night's Flower, Kuon, Ogre Ascendant, Maga, Traitor to Mortals, Maralen of the Mornsong, Toshiro Umezawa, Xun Yu, Wei Advisor
Red: Adamaro, First to Desire, Ashling the Pilgrim, Balthor the Stout, Brothers Yamazaki, Feldon of the Third Path, Ishi-ishi, Akki Crackshot, Jaya Ballard, Task Mage, Mannichi, the Fevered Dream, Norin the Wary, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Squee, Goblin Nabob, Starke of Rath, Tuktuk the Explorer, Zo-zu, the Punisher
Green: Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Dosan the Falling Leaf, Eladamri, Lord of Leaves, Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Hua Tuo, Honored Physician, Isao, Enlightened Bushi, Melira, Sylvok Outcast, Mirri, Cat Warrior, Omnath, Locus of Mana, Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant, Seton, Krosan Protector, Shizuko, Caller of Autumn, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Zuo Ci, the Mocking Sage
Azorius: Daxos of Meletis, Geist of Saint Traft, Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer, Hanna, Ship's Navigator, Sygg, River Guide
Orzhov: Athreos, God of Passage, Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Dimir: Sygg, River Cutthroat
Izzet: Jhoira of the Ghitu, Nin, the Pain Artist
Rakdos: Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, Lyzolda, the Blood Witch, Tymaret, the Murder King
Golgari: Rhys, the Exiled, Thelon of Havenwood, Glissa, the Traitor, Pharika, God of Affliction, Skullbriar, the Walking Grave, Varolz, the Scar-Striped
Gruul: Radha, Heir to Keld
Boros: Anax and Cymede
Selesnya: Gaddock Teeg, Rhys the Redeemed, Saffi Eriksdotter, Selvala, Explorer Returned
Simic: Vorel of the Hull Clade
Esper: Lady Evangela, Merieke Ri Berit, Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Grixis: Tetsuo Umezawa
Jund: Adun Oakenshield, Xira Arien
Naya: Marath, Will of the Wild, Mayael the Anima
Bant: Angus Mackenzie, Jenara, Asura of War, Ragnar
Abzan: Anafenza, the Foremost, Doran, the Siege Tower
Mardu: Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
Jeskai: Shu Yun, The Silent Tempest
Temur: Yasova Dragonclaw, Animar, Soul of Elements
Sultai: NONE
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