I've done some more research into the mana base using VivienneHell's spreadsheet (thanks for keeping it alive, man!), hypergeometric distribution calculations and some other on-line tools. I'd like to sum up my findings for other fans of this deck here.
Total number of lands+fixing+ramp: This should be about 49-50 slots (optimizing for 3-4 of these in your opener, and assuming you'll ship hands of 0, 1, 6, or 7 mana sources). I actually factor in the cheap U-costed cantrips and Night's Whisper here too (Impulse would count too, if you run it), counting them as roughly half a mana source. So I'm at 48 slots + Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm, Night's Whisper.
Total number of lands: Typical is 37-40, but you can theoretically go as high as 43. Only problem is that land slots compete with fixing and acceleration slots. Acceleration is worse than lands when you start missing land drops, but not only used for acceleration early but also to get enough fixing in a pauper mana base.
Number of acceleration: I recommend 7-8 slots. That means you'll get one piece of acceleration in your first 9 cards more than 50% of the time, and two pieces less than 15% of the time (almost always, you'd rather have a land instead of the redundant ramp card). In games where you don't have ramp, you can use t3 for 3 CMC card draw or transmutation instead - it's not a problem. My current selection:
Cultivate + Kodama's Reach: Run in almost all full power EDH decks. Fixes two colors and comes with CA. Darksteel Ingot: Solid in any 5c deck, awesome in this one. Into the North + Farseek: The new and cool options thanks to snow duals. The advantage is that they can fix red and white whithout committing a land drop to Mountain or Plains - you can drop CoA on schedule and still have UU for counters, transmutes etc. just like people playing full power EDH. Note that Three Visits and Nature's Lore aren't at all as attractive, as you'd need to use a green card to fetch a semi-green source (when you already have a green source), and would have to run green non-islands to make the fixing work. Sakura-Tribe Elder: This is just a better Rampant Growth, possibly the best 2 CMC ramp card in pauper in a vacuum. Primal Growth: Both ramp and a sac outlet with potential CA, one of the best options for the deck.
(Reap and Sow: Technically ramp, but more of a utility card. I take a leaf out of VivienneHell's spreadsheet and don't count it here, because it doesn't really accelerate a CoA drop compared to a land).
Number of fixing: Completely optional. They pretty much replace a land, which means they reduce keepable hands (by increasing 0-1 land hands) but add flexibility and fixing. The ones I find worthwhile: Crop Rotation: Target is typically Ravnica karoos, which achieves card parity while fixing mana and setting up Cloud of Faeries combo. But in a pinch, it's also instant speed Bojuka Bog, Mystic Sanctuary or Mortuary Mire. And if any of those is already in play, bounce them with a karoo for reuse WHILE fixing mana and setting up CoF combo. That is powerful. Mycosynth Wellspring: This is very similar to Panoramas and Karoos. If you play it turn 2, it sets you back 2 mana and nets you a basic, making it perform like a 5 color panorama in this respect. But when CoA blows, it actually gives you an extra land much like a karoo, that you can drop after CoA to quickly get double blue mana for instance. As a top-deck, it brings in an untapped basic land for a net cost of only 1 mana, and then gives another land still after that once it explodes. It's just super efficient.
LAND SELECTION
Now for the tricky part. I'll try to rate lands in order of priority/power here:
1) Command Tower and Path of Ancestry: The best lands for fixing, obviously.
2) Thriving lands (5 total, Thriving Bluff etc.): This is just the best fixing for the deck ever printed. I'd say that these are even stronger than uncommon rarity trilands, if we would use those. Much better than the any-lands below. You're hurting yourself severely if you're not running these.
3) Ravnica karoos: I include these high on the list because they are mandatory for Cloud of Faeries combo, because they make Crop Rotation and spell lands much better, and because they are awesome in their own right with virtual CA. They are also somewhat slow and clunky, and should be avoided in many copies. I think 3 is the sweet spot if you're running Crop Rotation - covers all the colors and you get some redundancy for combo (needing two of these).
4) Any-lands: Ash Barrens, Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse, Shimmerdrift Vale. Pick a color and stick with it. Barrens is best for possibility to play it untapped later. Vale is the worst for not shuffling and not being able to get Island for Mystic Sanctuary (small consolation prize: you can reset it with a karoo). Still, they are pretty much the same and much better than most duals/panoramas.
5) Panoramas: They are not created equal. Bant Panorama is probably in between Ash Barrens and Wilds/Expanse in terms of power. Naya Panorama is probably not much better than a basic Forest (especially now with thriving lands and snow duals to fix our splash colors). Jund, Grixis and Esper all have their merits and are some of the best fixing we have right now, but may get replaced in the future if better cards are printed at common.
6) Snow duals: Normally, dual lands are not a very good option for 5c decks because they give limited fixing. However, thanks to being snow lands AND actually land typed duals, these lands enable Into the North and Farseek. What's more, you can run more Islands for Mystic Santuary without risking early blue flooding. If you do run North/Farseek, I recommend Glacial Floodplain, Rimewood Falls and Volatile Fjord. There's nothing wrong with Ice Tunnel, but you should already max out on dedicated blue and black sources, so you're not getting that much value from the sacrifice of running another tap land. There's nothing wrong with using Shimmerdrift Vale or Swamp if you need to fix black early on either, and it saves you another tap land as it were.
7) Mono-colored lands including basics: Well, we need those. There is currently no reason to run more than 1 Mountain and 1 Plains, thanks again to thriving lands, snow duals and associated ramp, and to a lesser extent crop rotation/karoos. As for green, I think 2 Forest is the right number, just because the extra copy is useful for rebuilding from a mid/late game Armageddon effect, and it's not like you will green flood anyway. I'm on and off about Tranquil Thicket, but I think it's actually pretty good. Better than a 3rd Forest and most other options for green sources (not like you really need GW or GR duals anymore). The trick is that you can bounce it with a karoo and cycle it then, after it's been used - or of course cycle it as a top deck if you already have green. IMO, you should never run more than 6 dedicated blue or black sources, not counting karoos (they can bounce the redundant source and save it for later after you drop CoA the first time), because you will get mana redundancy and fail to reach WUBRG early. For me that's 5 Island + 1 Mystic Sanctuary and 4 Swamp + 1 Bojuka Bog + 1 Mortuary Mire.
8) Opal Palace: This is a good card for the deck in all situations but one - when you have exactly five mana sources, including this one. Then you can't cast CoA. It's a really solid tutor target late game to close out games, and certainly a step above what's usually available for utility lands at common rarity. I'm currently on the fence but weakly positive.
9) Slow gold lands: Gateway Plaza, Rupture Spire, Transguild Promenade: These used to be mandatory before the printing of thriving lands. Nowadays they seem a tad slow, but they ARE green sources and probably better than basic Forests if you're desperate.
10) MOAR "good" duals: This would entail running more karoos or snow duals than what is reasonably needed, or running the life tap duals from lists of yore. I think it's weaker than the slow gold lands right above, and I wouldn't run those either.
11) Shimmering Grotto and clones: Absolutely crap, like Opal Palace but with little upside.
12) "Bad" duals: Guildgates etc. There's certainly no room for this anymore.
Let me know if you agree or not My high hopes for the near future is that we will see a downgrade of Mirage fetches - or better still, another print consistent with modern card functionality that will put the fetched land into play tapped rather than actually entering tapped itself (like wilds/expanse works). This would give land typed fixing with fetches and targets (the new snow duals) to common, without really being OP since everything would still enter tapped.
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I like most of your thoughts. I originally was leaning on the green snow lands but cut them for the reasons you've already mentioned. I guess the only place I disagree is how high you are on the panoramas. I'm not particularly keen on them myself, but I think it is just because they seem to be such a large step down from the rest of the manabase. I do like running 4 Karoos for the simple fact of being able to reset the Thriving Lands and the spell lands more often in the later parts of games.
I am probably going to run Tranquil Thicket again, I just wish we had some type of incidental land recursion. The only thing I am currently trying to figure out is the split of snow duals and potentially panoramas.
As for other parts of the deck, I realized I missed some questions. I love Dispel. It has been an all star. I also think Behold the Multiverse is very strong. Double U is not hard to get for Faerie Trickery and Dream Fracture and I don't like the idea of Psychic Strike potentially providing a benefit (I think the cost of them drawing a card is worth it to cantrip ourselves). The only card I may cut is Rolling Thunder because I use it less and less.
P.S. With the shift to snow lands, I propose the alternative name for the deck as Ice, Ice, Baby
I am probably going to run Tranquil Thicket again, I just wish we had some type of incidental land recursion.
Well, I'm strongly considering running Grim Discovery. CA and selection at 2 CMC isn't bad, and I think Reaping the Graves > Grim Harvest with the new commander rules for dying effects, so I wouldn't be running any other creature recursion in the 2 CMC slot anyway. Your other options are probably Tilling Treefolk and Pulse of Murasa. I could see Treefolk making a comeback if common rarity mirage-type fetches became a thing (which would rework the entire mana base), but not right now.
The only thing I am currently trying to figure out is the split of snow duals and potentially panoramas.
Actually, I had an idea just today: Land Grant. Unlike Three Vists/Nature's Lore, LG doesn't require a green source to be cast - it IS a green source. The closest comparison is probably Mycosynth Wellspring, but you can't keep a 1 land hand with wellspring, but you might with LG. The only problem is if you land flood without getting another green source (so you have to wait many turns to use LG), but even then you're better of with LG than with any other spell that will never get you a green source.
So, Land Grant might tip the scales in favor of more green snow duals over some of the panoramas, for the same reason as we use Into the North/Farseek: We can fix green without committing to basic Forests. For example:
4 Panoramas
1 snow forest dual (Rimewood Falls)
2 basic forests
(4 U sources, 3 B sources, 5 G sources, 2 R sources, 2 W sources)
vs
2 Panoramas (in this case, I'd recommend keeping Bant Panorma and Grixis Panorma)
4 snow forest duals (all of them)
1 basic forest
(3 U sources, 2 B sources, 6 G sources, 2 R sources, 2 W sources)
So if we just judge these two groups, I think the second group is worse because you trade 2 U+B sources for 1 green source, and add 3 more tap lands over lands that always or sometimes enter untapped. But if we swap Mycosynth Wellspring for Land Grant now, it gets much better. The free cost of LG vs MW compensates for the tap lands, and we're far less committed to secondary/splash colors with this mana base. In short, you'll be fetching fewer basic forest, mountain and plains with the second option. This is why I'm leaning towards it right now. Thoughts?
I love Dispel. It has been an all star.
Tell me more! I've thought about including it, but I don't know if I'd get as much value out of it as Negate and REB/Pyro. I like the Pyro/Hydro/Dispel split in theory, but worry that I'll have the wrong spell at the wrong time too often.
I also think Behold the Multiverse is very strong.
I've been going over the draw spells and I'm not really seeing it. Paying 4 mana to draw 2 really needs huge perks to work. Foresee isn't generally good enough. This is similar but you get instant speed and an option to split costs, instead of 2 more scry. That seems better, but is it good enough?
I've actually put Treasure Cruise and Deep Analysis on the chopping bench too, as I'm using Secrets of the Golden City as my go-to late game CA source these days. Could you describe more you experiences with Behold the Multiverse?
The only card I may cut is Rolling Thunder because I use it less and less.
I've tried many times, but I always put it back in I forgot to comment on this too before, but RT vs. Fireball was discussed... IMO, the main reason for RT is the 2 CMC cost. This makes it much easier to tutor for than a 1 CMC sorcery. If you have to jump through tutor hoops to get your spell, you waste much more mana than the extra R on Rolling Thunder.
P.S. With the shift to snow lands, I propose the alternative name for the deck as Ice, Ice, Baby
LOL! What about Blue Baby Syndrome? (no...)
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I like the idea of Grim Discovery. I haven't been the biggest fan of Grim Harvest with the changes. The only time I love it is when I am doing Sidisi's Faithful shenanigans. Pulse and Treefolk are just so meh. Maybe with Mirage fetches, but I don't think I'd even want them then.
Land Grant is a very interesting idea. I haven't been playing Wellspring already but I could be persuaded to try Land Grant. What is your exact manabase using that. I'm curious which Island snow duals you would also run, if any others.
Dispel and Behold have the same type of reasoning. I want the deck to shift more towards very cheap answers due to the fact that the groups I'm playing with lean more toward the competitive side of things. Dispel often wins a lot of counter wars. I think the split on those will always just vary based on playgroup which means there isn't a "right" answer. I frequently go back and forth on BEB v. the second of Pyroblast/REB.
Behold is also good because it is a cheap draw spell. I am typically foretelling it very early on turns where I've cast some type of ramp and don't need to worry about leaving up answers. The ab ility to toss it out there and get a 2 mana solid draw spell is good. It may not stay long term, but so far I've been happy with it. I have never like Foresee, but I think it mainly boils down to the fact that is isn't an instant. I don't mind paying 4 mana for a draw spell, but I don't want to be tapped down for an entire turn cycle to do so. I've also considered Rain of Revelation multiple times in the same slot.
I had the same thought about Rolling Thunder right after I submitted my post but then didn't remember if I ever went back and mentioned that.
Organised according to VH's spreadsheet for ease of copy-pasting and functional overview:
Child of Alara (1)
RAMP/FIXING (10)
Crop Rotation
Primal Growth
Kodama’s Reach
Cultivate
Sakura-tribe Elder
Darksteel Ingot
Land Grant
Farseek
Into the North
Growth Spiral
CARD DRAW/QUALITY (11)
Brainstorm
Preordain
Night's Whisper
Mulldrifter
Read the Bones
Compulsive Research
Ponder
Notion Rain
Secrets of the Golden City
Augur of Bolas
Coiling Oracle
COMBO/WINCON (3)
Cloud of Faeries
Ghostly Flicker
Rolling Thunder
LANDS (39)
Quite a few changes in this update. I won't go into the mana base anymore than what I already did in my previous posts, but feel free to ask if something seems odd.
Notable cuts: Treasure Cruise: While powerful and banned in many constructed formats, I find myself hating it in the deck. I can't tutor for it when I need it, it's bad in the opener, almost impossible to recur effectively without severely hurting your GY recursion options. Deep Analysis: I should have just swapped it for Secrets of the Golden City, but without a clear direction for the deck after the rules changes, I just filled open slots with more draw spells. Draw 3 for 3 that you can recur is just better than draw 4 for 6 and 3 life as a one shot deal. I'd sooner try out Behold the Multiverse than reinstate this card. Mistmoon Griffin: The overcosted Kaya's Ghostform is gone. Reap and Sow: I finally realized Crop Rotation did everything this did, only cheaper. It's also hard to tutor for, so doesn't really add that much to your land removal options. Dimir House Guard: Considering the last three cuts, there's little for him to fetch these days. Good riddance. Izzet Chronarch: Removing the second recursion wizard takes the 2 wizards + flicker board position off the table so to speak. But if you can achieve that and rub such a fragile recursion engine into your opponents' faces, you're probably already winning with anything. Why not combo out instead? IMO, Mystical Sanctuary fills this slot better. If you want a more combo-oriented deck, you could certainly include this, Brainspoil, Peregrine Drake and Displace to get redundancy in all your combo pieces. I prefer a stronger control element myself.
Notable inclusions:
Growth Spiral and Coiling Oracle: Both good cards on the same power level as other 2 cmc options in the list (Night's Whisper, Augur of Bolas). My thoughts on Explore is that it's roughly like Impulse - not quite good enough for the mana cost.
Dispel/Hydro/Pyro package: Imma try this out, I think it will work well. I've underestimated the power of Hydroblast mainly because I didn't take into account all the gold cards it can kill/counter.
Deprive: I've changed my mind, it is awesome in the deck. It's a late game reusable counter. As long as you don't over-rely on it, it neatly handles what CoA can't, and you won't be making every land drop at this point anyway so replaying Mystic Sanctuary is a non-issue.
Arcane Denial: Included over Dream Fracture mainly because we have so many 1 mana instants now that it's easy to use this as an instant speed Compulsive Research in a 1-on-1 game (negating its drawback in 1-on-1 games).
Fleshbag Marauder: An excellent staple in full power EDH that's been downgraded to common rarity, and it fits right into the deck. It's good on its own, after CoA on indestructibles, to kill CoA, with Ghostly Flicker and your creature recursion.
Fiery Cannonade: Like marauder, this takes the deck in a direction where we're less reliant on the commander - thanks to common rarity cards getting stronger. Certainly not a must-include, but I think it will be strong.
Flood of Recollection: A blue Regrowth, what's not to like? IMO Archaeomancer, Mystic Sanctuary and this card are the best options for instant/sorcery recursion right now and they all fit formidably with the deck's tutors.
Cleansing Wildfire: Already in the spreadsheet, but just wanted to point this card out for anyone building the deck. I think it is the best option for the land removal slot right now, an auto-include for the utility toolbox.
Thinking about: Behold the Multiverse: Feels nice to have a good option to replace any card that under-performs.
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I like the Land Grant change to the manabase and how it works alongside the Into the North/Farseek package. Looking forward to better and better lands going forward since I still want to cut the panoramas but I'll give them another go. I think the only different I noticde mana wise was that I am playing Simic Growth Chamber over Opal Palace simply because I don't typically see myself wanting to fork over the extra mana for Child later in the game, he's already a sufficiently large beatstick for me.
I only have a few other thoughts on your changes. I am happy to see you being open to shifting towards an overall lower mana curve. I think it makes the early and late game much smoother since you can always have interaction up, and typically a few pieces. I'm not so sold on the Fleshbag Marauder and Fiery Cannonad. Relying on the commander is just what the deck does and I'm not typically worried about the cards that can die to Cannonade if I'm not able to play Child. Fleshbag just seems like a worse version of any other kill spell, the body won't ever stick around and if you want an edict effect, I'd argue you're better off just playing an edict. I'll stick to only Sidisi's Faithful as my creature sacrifice outlet.
I can't ever see myself dropping the double recursion wizard package. That's what made the deck so fun to me originally and I've multiple times considered cutting Cloud of Faeries and centering more around the controlling aspect and Flicker softlock. I want to like Deprive, and I think in a 1v1-centered build it is perfect. In multiplayer it seems way less appealing to me. Flood of Recollection is a card I was excited to try when it was first downshifted, but I think if I want a Regrowth-esque card, I'd go with Reclaim. I'm not sure the deck wants that at the moment, but if you're cutting a recursion wizard, it seems like the next best thing.
I did decide to try out some of the cards you mentioned I've previously given up on. Here is my next out / experimenting with list as well as the list of other cards I'm considering to replace them.
Iffy
- Augur of Bolas
- Coiling Oracle
- Rolling Thunder
- Impulse
Next Up
- Behold the Multiverse
- Crib Swap
- Rain of Revelation
- Reclaim
I updated the spreadsheet to include both of your new deck lists. I updated a few cards on my list, but haven't made the snow/land updates yet, so you can ignore the manabase. I suspect it will look similar to your list(s).
Ramp/Fixing
I'll try Coiling Oracle and Growth Spiral again, but I've always preferred the "guaranteed" ramp of other options. Feels bad when I "miss" the land drop.
Card Draw/Quality Sea Gate Oracle doesn't look at as many cards as Augur of Bolas, but it is guaranteed to replace itself. Again, I prefer the guarantee. I saw your argument for cutting Treasure Cruise, but it doesn't sit right with me. Even if I cast it once in the mid-to-late game it seems worth it!
Tutors
We all cut Dimir House Guard. I am running a different reanimation package than you two, so it might make sense for me to leave it in.
Countermagic
We are all trying out lots of blasts. They are versatile. In my experience, the "drawback" of milling two for Psychic Strike is equivalent to not being able to counter faerie spells. It's close. Psychic Strike is a hard counter that does not require UU. I would run Cancel over Dream Fracture, but I don't run either. Arcane Denial and Dream Fracture both allow my opponent to draw cards. Arcane Denial is hard counter 2MV (mana value) and requires only one U mana. I might give it another try, but Condescend always comes through for me and gives me a scry. Dispel seems like it could be fantastic at the right time. So does Deprive. Lots of options!
Creature Removal/Sacrifice Outlets Fleshbag Marauder can't be better than Village Rites, can it? Fiery Cannonade can't be better than Village Rites. I guess what I'm saying is that Village Rites is good.
Recursion
I like spells that put CoA directly into play from the graveyard (Breath of Life, False Defeat). Disturbed Burial has to be better than Grim Discovery, right? How often is that other mode (returning a land) putting in work? When I play Disturbed Burial with Buyback, my opponent usually concedes in response.
Utility
I can see the argument for Cleansing Wildfire. There are lots of troublesome lands out there. And it replaces itself. And it's a red Crop Rotation (sort of). In a group game, I can usually get away with sitting behind Spore Frog / Disturbed Burial for quite a while, long enough to set up a haymaker turn or get Capsize online.
Combo/Wincon
I see the argument that tutoring for Rolling Thunder (2MV) is easier than tutoring for Fireball (1MV). I still can count on one hand the number of times I've won with the combo, so more often than not I'd rather naturally draw Fireball than Rolling Thunder to act as a removal spell.
Land
I haven't made any changes for snow yet. The reality is that I am hitting all five colors of mana to cast CoA on turn 4 or 5 a high percentage of the time already without making any changes. I appreciate the different ways you approach building the mana base for your deck. The math approach is cool. Thank you for the write-up. We have so many (great!) options for the mana base now. Amazing!
I agree w/ Vivienne on most of those points. Every time I go to Augur, it ends up bricking the first 3-4 times I cast it and I switch back. You're finally convincing me on Dream Fracture, since we have more card draw now. Current changes:
I updated the spreadsheet with your changes, bfine70.
This deck is a pile of lands, color-fixing, ramp, tutoring, card draw, recursion, utility, removal, and counters that is almost entirely focused on playing CoA as early as possible and blowing up the board until you win with card advantage. For as long as I've been keeping the spreadsheet, we all run approximately the same number of cards in each category. It comes down to which cards we want to run to make the magic happen. Some cards are objectively better than others. Some are subjectively better. Some cards choices come down to preference. I appreciate you all taking the time to keep the conversation going.
Check out Study Hall from C21. Seems like it's worth trying as a replacement for Opal Palace. I'd rather have the Scry than the +1/+1 counter.
Ramp/Fixing Environmental Sciences is interesting because it is colorless for the rare time that you end up with a hand that doesn't have the right mana. Letter of Acceptance is interesting because it replaces itself, albeit at a worse rate than Commander's Sphere.
Card Draw/Quality Eureka Moment is interesting because it is instant speed, draws two, and ramps. Crushing Disappointment is interesting because it is instant speed, draws two, and causes life loss to all players. Thrilling Discovery is interesting because it's a filter card that is worded generously. Compare to Cathartic Reunion.
Lands Archway Commons is another land in a long line of lands that do the same thing but with a different name. The mana base does not need it, but here it is anyway. Prismari Campus is interesting because it offers a scry. This set includes lands with other two color combinations that do the same thing. I'm not sure if any of these lands earn a slot. By the time I'm tapping the equivalent of 5 mana, I probably have better things to do than to scry 1.
I'm playing a Campus in my land flex slot right now to try it out, but I would tend to agree with your sentiment that it seems unlikely I'll ever be in the spot where I can activate it without something better to do.
If you like Infuse with Vitality, I'd recommender Abnormal Endurance or Demonic Gifts instead. Same effect without the life gain, and a little easier to cast.
The other other card I had on my radar to potentially try is Resculpt. I already don't play Crib Swap or Ravenform, but if I did, I think I'd play Resculpt for the simple fact that the 4/4 seems like it would be fairly negligible in most circumstances.
This is the deck that gets me most excited for spoiler season! Can't wait for more on MH2 and the D&D set.
Hi guys, long time no see
I spent far too long from the upgrade options for our beloved deck. I need to tell I loved the snow duals and the new ramps that help us with those lands. And WHAT is dat Land Grant? Beautiful.
I already put my deck in the spreadsheet (will update my sig later).
Here are my main thoughts (mostly personal taste):
- no Growth Spiral for me. It's way too situational to be considered a ramp spell. Coiling Oracle is the same but can be reused more easily, and replaces itself leaving a 1/1 creature.
- no Compulsive Research for me. I simply hate the idea of discarding 1/2 cards just for the sake of digging 1 card deeper (ok, it's an instant but still). I prefer Deep Analysis, more useful in mid- and late game IMO.
- Perilous Research is in the deck since its beginning but it's kinda weak as a sac outlet because it can be countered. That's why I prefer Altar's Reap - even when it's countered, CoA blows away.
- I ditched Opal Palace and Study Hall only because they are slower and don't help to cast CoA on t4. Both are wonderful in any other aspect.
- On Jund Panorama: like Bant, fixes Forest, a splash color, and a main color. More useful than Grixis IMO but as I ditched the 2 lands above, I go with 3 Panoramas. And they filter basic lands so I can draw spells more frequently as well.
- Adding Salvager of Secrets, Peregrine Drake, and Displace because I am a combo freak
- Resculpt seems better than Angelic Purge. We lose a sac outlet but hey, it's instant, it's blue, it's cheaper. Will look for one.
What do you guys think about MH2? I feel like there are some contenders, or at least, alternatives:
Step Through A new wizard tutor! For people like Alexandre and I that are more combo-focused, I think this one is a slam dunk; I think I'd run it even in a more controllish build; Unholy Heat How fast do you guys enable delirium? As I have little experience with the deck, I cannot tell for sure. Since it conveniently kills CoA, I guess it is usable; Revolutionist A more expensive Salvager of Secrets. I don't think 5R is better than 3UU, so, I pass; Echoing Return It does not have the utility of Grim Discovery, nor can we use it to its fullest potential; Bone Shards It sacs CoA and removes planeswalkers. Personally, I might try swapping either Altar's Reap or Costly Plunder for it; Lose Focus I'm guessing this one will be meta-dependent, can't think of any regular counter that I'd replace for this one; Mental Journey Draw 3 late game or fix a land in the early game. Would I replace Deep Analysis or Secrets of the Golden City for it? Probably not; Late to Dinner Interesting Ressurection effect, but from what I see in most of the latest builds, the deck no longer has any need for it.
What do guys think? Did I miss any other card? You guys evaluate cards brilliantly, so I'm eager to hear from you.
@Alexandre: Witch's Cottage would replace Mire, right? I'm not sure if I'd bother doing that, reaching 3 swamps for it and 3 islands for Sanctuary seem like a lot of work...
I added your list to the spreadsheet. I think I captured everything, but let me know if you notice anything out of place.
MH2 Cards You Mentioned Step Through - (Common) Tutors are always worth looking at for this deck. What would you replace to run this? Unholy Heat - We have a bunch of ways to consistently trigger CoA, typically with other utility. Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast have the same MV for example, do not require delerium to trigger CoA, and can also be used to counter / destroy blue spells/permanents. Revolutionist - It is slightly less color-intensive to cast this creature, but it does have a higher MV. Echoing Return - Agreed. There are better options here. Bone Shards - Altar's Reap and Costly Plunder draw cards and have the same sacrifice-as-cost. Bone Shards is tutorable with Dizzy Spell, but is a sorcery. Lose Focus - I like this spell. It splashes and scales. Hits all spell types. Because it replicates, it's also interesting in counter wars. Mental Journey - This could go into the "refill your hand" slot we all run. I like that it has early utility because of the basic landcycling. Late to Dinner - I'm the only one who still likes this effect in this deck. Late to Dinner is an upgrade to Breath of Life / False Defeat.
Other Interesting MH2 Cards Chrome Courier - A less-splashable Sea Gate Oracle with occasional upside and flying. If you want a higher creature count, this is an option. Dihada's Ploy - A filter card with life gain. Jump-start gets you going again when you draw a brick and need to filter or you have a handful of wrong answers. Does not require double-blue. Instant speed. Discerning Taste - 3MV, sorcery spell, but looks at 4 cards and sometimes gains you life. I would run Impulse before this. Forbidden Alchemy has flashback, but no life gain.
1) Hard to say which card would be replaced for Step Through; but I guess Salvager of Secrets would be the one. I'd be replacing a target for a tutor that could also grab the cheaper Archaeomancer. Since its MV is 5, Brainspoil would still have a recursion target besides Chronarch in desperate situations.
2) My interest in Unholy Heat and Bone Shards are more on the removal aspect of them than as outlets for CoA, though I cannot say how useful removing planeswalkers is when we have CoA on our side.
3) I Guess I'd run Lose Focus over Faerie Trickery, but since I already don't run it, I'm not interested on it right now. It does seem pretty good tbh.
4) My issue with Mental Journey is its MV, even though its an instant. Dihada's Ploy could be good, you're right.
I would LOVE to replace Vedalken Aethermage with Step Through. It simply looks better - cheaper tutor and more useful when hard casting it. But the newer card isn't tutorable unless you use Brainspoil - but then you could already tutor a wizard with it. So if you're a combo freak a 2cc creature is better to be tutored with a couple tutors - imagine using Muddle the Mixture to tutor Vedalken Aethermage and use it to tutor Archaeomancer. Cast it and return Muddle the Mixture to tutor other combo piece. You can't do these fun things with Step Through so I won't use it for now (will buy 1 for the maybeboard just in case though). And unless you use a couple of other wizards 2 specific tutors seem redundant to me.
As VivienneHell said, Bone Shards is a sorcery and doesn't buy you 2 cards. IMO it's meh compared to the cards you mentioned. Revolutionist should replace Izzet Chronarch if we had any difficulty to fix blue in this deck. Hence he doesn't fit.
We have 8 islands and 5 swamps in the deck. You're right, Witch's Cottage won't be useful most of the times.
IMO Traumatic Visions is better than Mental Journey (if you look for ramp and utility). And I don't use it. Yet.
I don't know if I like Lose Focus. Maybe it or Traumatic Visions could go in the deck if I needed more counters. More maybeboard at least.
Deadly Dispute - A more flexible Altar's Reap with upside. Can be a strict upgrade or move the deck further into black for this effect. Am I reading this right? You get the treasure token after the Child of Alara sacrifice ability resolves? ***UPDATE: Several confirmations below that you do get the treasure token.
Evolving Wilds - Fancy reprint that maintains the "common" set symbol. I only play cards with the common set symbol in this deck, so it's nice to have options. The fancy reprints usually use a gold symbol.
Fates' Reversal - This one is a reach if you wanted to play Dungeons. You'd need to go deep on other sub-optimal cards, though.
Feign Death - Similar to Undying Evil. You can Feign Death a creature that already has a +1/+1 counter on it, but it does return tapped.
Minimus Containment - This *would* be great, except it gets blown up when Child triggers, releasing whatever terrible thing contained therein. ***UPDATE: See post by Reaper9889 below. This is not an Oblivion Ring effect; it's an enchantment. So, Child will destroy it and whatever it is enchanting at the same time. It acts as a removal spell for any nonland permanent, albeit with some gotchas.
You Find the Villains' Lair - Good stuff. Not as a replacement for a counter spell, unless you are running one of the other 3MV mono-blue counters like Faerie Trickery. But as a replacement for a filter card. I'm looking at my card drawing/filtering slots for this one.
What did I miss? Anything else look exciting or worth discussing?
I didn't find any card that you haven't already mentioned particularly interesting, I guess this will be a slow set for us (which is pretty understandable given the maturity of the list and the fact Kaldheim and Jumpstart had already done a lot for the mana base, which is something that had rarely been improved in pauper in prior years, though Modern Horizons II has also stepped up the game with the dual indestructible artifact lands, so, who knows, maybe we will start playing untapped duals next year).
Deadly dispute and Feign Death are the cards I believe could be used: Deadly Dispute will replace Altar's Reap for me (I also think we get to keep the treasure, as it is part of the effect of the spell, which would happen after CoA gets sacced and its ability solved). Feign Death will replace Kaya's Ghostform, as I value its instant speed more than protection from exile effects.
I really wish I could play more often with this deck, as I believe discussing matchups and overall strategies when playing the deck could also bring a lot to the table. I'm considering building it on MTGO so that I can always have a place to play whenever I find some time.
You will get the treasure after the child goes boom for deadly dispute, since sac is an additional cost.
Note that Minimus Containment and the card it is enchanting will both get destroyed at the same time, since Minimus makes it into a (non-land) artifact with no abilities except for the mana one. Also, it is not that great on commanders, simnce the owner of the commander can sac it for mana.
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You are totally right! I read Minimus Containment as an Oblivion Ring effect, but it's not. It simply enchants the permanent; so yes, they both get blown up at the same time by Child. This makes it a much better card for our purposes. It hits everything except lands and even removes indestructible.
I'll edit my previous post to reflect this better information. Thank you, Reaper9889. You rock.
I noticed that on the recent lists, you are all running Land Grant. None of you are running Nature's Lore or Three Visits. Why?
Land Grant can occasionally be cast for no mana, but it requires you to a) have a hand with no lands in it and (crucially) b) reveal your hand. Otherwise, the casting cost is the same as the other two options (1G) but the effect is much worse. Land Grant puts the forest card into your hand. The other two spells put the forest card onto the battlefield. That's a massive difference.
In other words, 100% of the time, the effect from Land Grant is worse than the effect from Nature's Lore or Three Visits. But some percentage of the time, you can cast Land Grant "for free." Except, it's not really free because you need to reveal your hand.
How often are you casting Land Grant for free? And when you are, how often would have rather have ramped the land onto the battlefield rather than just putting it into your hand?
A couple of scenarios:
You draw an opening hand with 0-1 lands and Land Grant. Is this hand really keepable because of Land Grant (casting it for free on an early turn)?
You draw an opening hand with 2 lands and Land Grant. Would Nature's Lore of Three Visits be better here?
You are in the first 4 turns of the game. Is Land Grant the best land fixing spell when you are trying to ramp into Child?
You are in the mid-game and you topdeck Land Grant. Is the ability to cast Land Grant for free at this point in the game useful?
You are in the late game and you topdeck Land Grant. Is the ability to cast Land Grant for free at this point in the game useful?
There aren't many times when I'd rather have Land Grant. I'd rather pay the mana and put the land onto the battlefield. Playing it for free and revealing my hand is asking for trouble. If Land Grant did the exact same thing as Nature's Lore, but had the optional "play for free" clause, I could see why it would be the clear winner for this slot. But it doesn't do the same thing as Nature's Lore. What am I missing?
I haven't actually considering swapping Land Grant for Three Visits, so I can't help much about that, but @Urdjur explained using LG a few posts back and I quite agree with what was said:
Actually, I had an idea just today: Land Grant. Unlike Three Vists/Nature's Lore, LG doesn't require a green source to be cast - it IS a green source. The closest comparison is probably Mycosynth Wellspring, but you can't keep a 1 land hand with wellspring, but you might with LG. The only problem is if you land flood without getting another green source (so you have to wait many turns to use LG), but even then you're better of with LG than with any other spell that will never get you a green source.
I for one really enjoy fixing hands with no green sources with it, because it pretty much guarantees at least 4 colors very early in game.
I updated the spreadsheet with my current list. If you have changes to your list or want your list added please post!
Ramp/Fixing
Since I finally got around to adding snow lands, I updated the ramping and fixing spells. I like Commander's Sphere instead of Darksteel Ingot. By the time I'm casting Child and blowing up the world, I'd rather have the additional card from the Sphere. Basically, it ramps when I need ramp, fixes when I need fixing, and cycles (for a new card) exactly when I don't need it anymore.
I'm running Impulse in the Sea Gate Oracle slot. I'd rather see more cards than have the body on the battlefield. I'm also trying You Find the Villains' Lair. I like both modes (filtering and countering).
Countermagic
I'm running all four blasts. I think of these as 1MV spells to trigger Child at instant speed with upside in a bunch of matches. They can act as removal and counterspells for blue and red, both of which show up in most games.
Creature Removal/Sacrifice Outlets
I'm running Deadly Dispute over Terminate. Terminate is great at what it does, but I rarely need that effect. I'd rather have another way to draw cards and trigger Child.
Why Feign Death over Undying Evil? Without Opal Palace, Feign Death would just be worse since you leave your Child tapped when it recurs. I'm not saying that is some major difference, but I've definitely had situations come up where that would make a difference.
Most of the other changes seem fine to me. I've tinkered with Impulse but typically find it underwhelming so it never sticks around. I may end up back on some of the False Defeat-like effects, but I don't think I'd go all-in on all of them. I usually want to find one of the more engine-ish recursion cards (Disturbed Burial/Reaping the Graves/Grim Harvest) and have the other recursion be there just in case.
I am interested to hear how you feel about Minimus Containment. I opt for Forsake the Worldly because I can cycle it when I run into early on and don't need it, knowing I can likely recur it later as needed. If you're opting for Minimus, I'd also recommend trying out Faith's Fetters since it doesn't give the opponent access to something like a commander as easily by just sacrificing the newly created Treasure.
P.S. My list has now been updated on the spreadsheet as well!
Why Feign Death over Undying Evil? Without Opal Palace, Feign Death would just be worse since you leave your Child tapped when it recurs. I'm not saying that is some major difference, but I've definitely had situations come up where that would make a difference.
You are right. I had them both in the list while I was working on it and deleted the wrong one! Fixed!
I am interested to hear how you feel about Minimus Containment. I opt for Forsake the Worldly because I can cycle it when I run into early on and don't need it, knowing I can likely recur it later as needed. If you're opting for Minimus, I'd also recommend trying out Faith's Fetters since it doesn't give the opponent access to something like a commander as easily by just sacrificing the newly created Treasure.
I like this effect 3MV and I like that Minimus Containment hits (almost) everything. It's more of a tempo play since I'm just trying to get the Child loop going. Ultimately, being able to cycle Forsake the Worldly might push it over, but I wanted to give the new card a try here.
P.S. My list has now been updated on the spreadsheet as well!
Sweet! Thank you for keeping the list up to date. I see that you've got Quandrix Campus in your list now. Let us know how that goes!
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Total number of lands+fixing+ramp: This should be about 49-50 slots (optimizing for 3-4 of these in your opener, and assuming you'll ship hands of 0, 1, 6, or 7 mana sources). I actually factor in the cheap U-costed cantrips and Night's Whisper here too (Impulse would count too, if you run it), counting them as roughly half a mana source. So I'm at 48 slots + Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm, Night's Whisper.
Total number of lands: Typical is 37-40, but you can theoretically go as high as 43. Only problem is that land slots compete with fixing and acceleration slots. Acceleration is worse than lands when you start missing land drops, but not only used for acceleration early but also to get enough fixing in a pauper mana base.
Number of acceleration: I recommend 7-8 slots. That means you'll get one piece of acceleration in your first 9 cards more than 50% of the time, and two pieces less than 15% of the time (almost always, you'd rather have a land instead of the redundant ramp card). In games where you don't have ramp, you can use t3 for 3 CMC card draw or transmutation instead - it's not a problem. My current selection:
Cultivate + Kodama's Reach: Run in almost all full power EDH decks. Fixes two colors and comes with CA.
Darksteel Ingot: Solid in any 5c deck, awesome in this one.
Into the North + Farseek: The new and cool options thanks to snow duals. The advantage is that they can fix red and white whithout committing a land drop to Mountain or Plains - you can drop CoA on schedule and still have UU for counters, transmutes etc. just like people playing full power EDH. Note that Three Visits and Nature's Lore aren't at all as attractive, as you'd need to use a green card to fetch a semi-green source (when you already have a green source), and would have to run green non-islands to make the fixing work.
Sakura-Tribe Elder: This is just a better Rampant Growth, possibly the best 2 CMC ramp card in pauper in a vacuum.
Primal Growth: Both ramp and a sac outlet with potential CA, one of the best options for the deck.
(Reap and Sow: Technically ramp, but more of a utility card. I take a leaf out of VivienneHell's spreadsheet and don't count it here, because it doesn't really accelerate a CoA drop compared to a land).
Number of fixing: Completely optional. They pretty much replace a land, which means they reduce keepable hands (by increasing 0-1 land hands) but add flexibility and fixing. The ones I find worthwhile:
Crop Rotation: Target is typically Ravnica karoos, which achieves card parity while fixing mana and setting up Cloud of Faeries combo. But in a pinch, it's also instant speed Bojuka Bog, Mystic Sanctuary or Mortuary Mire. And if any of those is already in play, bounce them with a karoo for reuse WHILE fixing mana and setting up CoF combo. That is powerful.
Mycosynth Wellspring: This is very similar to Panoramas and Karoos. If you play it turn 2, it sets you back 2 mana and nets you a basic, making it perform like a 5 color panorama in this respect. But when CoA blows, it actually gives you an extra land much like a karoo, that you can drop after CoA to quickly get double blue mana for instance. As a top-deck, it brings in an untapped basic land for a net cost of only 1 mana, and then gives another land still after that once it explodes. It's just super efficient.
LAND SELECTION
Now for the tricky part. I'll try to rate lands in order of priority/power here:
1) Command Tower and Path of Ancestry: The best lands for fixing, obviously.
2) Thriving lands (5 total, Thriving Bluff etc.): This is just the best fixing for the deck ever printed. I'd say that these are even stronger than uncommon rarity trilands, if we would use those. Much better than the any-lands below. You're hurting yourself severely if you're not running these.
3) Ravnica karoos: I include these high on the list because they are mandatory for Cloud of Faeries combo, because they make Crop Rotation and spell lands much better, and because they are awesome in their own right with virtual CA. They are also somewhat slow and clunky, and should be avoided in many copies. I think 3 is the sweet spot if you're running Crop Rotation - covers all the colors and you get some redundancy for combo (needing two of these).
4) Any-lands: Ash Barrens, Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse, Shimmerdrift Vale. Pick a color and stick with it. Barrens is best for possibility to play it untapped later. Vale is the worst for not shuffling and not being able to get Island for Mystic Sanctuary (small consolation prize: you can reset it with a karoo). Still, they are pretty much the same and much better than most duals/panoramas.
5) Panoramas: They are not created equal. Bant Panorama is probably in between Ash Barrens and Wilds/Expanse in terms of power. Naya Panorama is probably not much better than a basic Forest (especially now with thriving lands and snow duals to fix our splash colors). Jund, Grixis and Esper all have their merits and are some of the best fixing we have right now, but may get replaced in the future if better cards are printed at common.
6) Snow duals: Normally, dual lands are not a very good option for 5c decks because they give limited fixing. However, thanks to being snow lands AND actually land typed duals, these lands enable Into the North and Farseek. What's more, you can run more Islands for Mystic Santuary without risking early blue flooding. If you do run North/Farseek, I recommend Glacial Floodplain, Rimewood Falls and Volatile Fjord. There's nothing wrong with Ice Tunnel, but you should already max out on dedicated blue and black sources, so you're not getting that much value from the sacrifice of running another tap land. There's nothing wrong with using Shimmerdrift Vale or Swamp if you need to fix black early on either, and it saves you another tap land as it were.
7) Mono-colored lands including basics: Well, we need those. There is currently no reason to run more than 1 Mountain and 1 Plains, thanks again to thriving lands, snow duals and associated ramp, and to a lesser extent crop rotation/karoos. As for green, I think 2 Forest is the right number, just because the extra copy is useful for rebuilding from a mid/late game Armageddon effect, and it's not like you will green flood anyway. I'm on and off about Tranquil Thicket, but I think it's actually pretty good. Better than a 3rd Forest and most other options for green sources (not like you really need GW or GR duals anymore). The trick is that you can bounce it with a karoo and cycle it then, after it's been used - or of course cycle it as a top deck if you already have green. IMO, you should never run more than 6 dedicated blue or black sources, not counting karoos (they can bounce the redundant source and save it for later after you drop CoA the first time), because you will get mana redundancy and fail to reach WUBRG early. For me that's 5 Island + 1 Mystic Sanctuary and 4 Swamp + 1 Bojuka Bog + 1 Mortuary Mire.
8) Opal Palace: This is a good card for the deck in all situations but one - when you have exactly five mana sources, including this one. Then you can't cast CoA. It's a really solid tutor target late game to close out games, and certainly a step above what's usually available for utility lands at common rarity. I'm currently on the fence but weakly positive.
9) Slow gold lands: Gateway Plaza, Rupture Spire, Transguild Promenade: These used to be mandatory before the printing of thriving lands. Nowadays they seem a tad slow, but they ARE green sources and probably better than basic Forests if you're desperate.
10) MOAR "good" duals: This would entail running more karoos or snow duals than what is reasonably needed, or running the life tap duals from lists of yore. I think it's weaker than the slow gold lands right above, and I wouldn't run those either.
11) Shimmering Grotto and clones: Absolutely crap, like Opal Palace but with little upside.
12) "Bad" duals: Guildgates etc. There's certainly no room for this anymore.
Let me know if you agree or not My high hopes for the near future is that we will see a downgrade of Mirage fetches - or better still, another print consistent with modern card functionality that will put the fetched land into play tapped rather than actually entering tapped itself (like wilds/expanse works). This would give land typed fixing with fetches and targets (the new snow duals) to common, without really being OP since everything would still enter tapped.
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I am probably going to run Tranquil Thicket again, I just wish we had some type of incidental land recursion. The only thing I am currently trying to figure out is the split of snow duals and potentially panoramas.
As for other parts of the deck, I realized I missed some questions. I love Dispel. It has been an all star. I also think Behold the Multiverse is very strong. Double U is not hard to get for Faerie Trickery and Dream Fracture and I don't like the idea of Psychic Strike potentially providing a benefit (I think the cost of them drawing a card is worth it to cantrip ourselves). The only card I may cut is Rolling Thunder because I use it less and less.
P.S. With the shift to snow lands, I propose the alternative name for the deck as Ice, Ice, Baby
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
Well, I'm strongly considering running Grim Discovery. CA and selection at 2 CMC isn't bad, and I think Reaping the Graves > Grim Harvest with the new commander rules for dying effects, so I wouldn't be running any other creature recursion in the 2 CMC slot anyway. Your other options are probably Tilling Treefolk and Pulse of Murasa. I could see Treefolk making a comeback if common rarity mirage-type fetches became a thing (which would rework the entire mana base), but not right now.
Actually, I had an idea just today: Land Grant. Unlike Three Vists/Nature's Lore, LG doesn't require a green source to be cast - it IS a green source. The closest comparison is probably Mycosynth Wellspring, but you can't keep a 1 land hand with wellspring, but you might with LG. The only problem is if you land flood without getting another green source (so you have to wait many turns to use LG), but even then you're better of with LG than with any other spell that will never get you a green source.
So, Land Grant might tip the scales in favor of more green snow duals over some of the panoramas, for the same reason as we use Into the North/Farseek: We can fix green without committing to basic Forests. For example:
4 Panoramas
1 snow forest dual (Rimewood Falls)
2 basic forests
(4 U sources, 3 B sources, 5 G sources, 2 R sources, 2 W sources)
vs
2 Panoramas (in this case, I'd recommend keeping Bant Panorma and Grixis Panorma)
4 snow forest duals (all of them)
1 basic forest
(3 U sources, 2 B sources, 6 G sources, 2 R sources, 2 W sources)
So if we just judge these two groups, I think the second group is worse because you trade 2 U+B sources for 1 green source, and add 3 more tap lands over lands that always or sometimes enter untapped. But if we swap Mycosynth Wellspring for Land Grant now, it gets much better. The free cost of LG vs MW compensates for the tap lands, and we're far less committed to secondary/splash colors with this mana base. In short, you'll be fetching fewer basic forest, mountain and plains with the second option. This is why I'm leaning towards it right now. Thoughts?
Tell me more! I've thought about including it, but I don't know if I'd get as much value out of it as Negate and REB/Pyro. I like the Pyro/Hydro/Dispel split in theory, but worry that I'll have the wrong spell at the wrong time too often.
I've been going over the draw spells and I'm not really seeing it. Paying 4 mana to draw 2 really needs huge perks to work. Foresee isn't generally good enough. This is similar but you get instant speed and an option to split costs, instead of 2 more scry. That seems better, but is it good enough?
I've actually put Treasure Cruise and Deep Analysis on the chopping bench too, as I'm using Secrets of the Golden City as my go-to late game CA source these days. Could you describe more you experiences with Behold the Multiverse?
I've tried many times, but I always put it back in I forgot to comment on this too before, but RT vs. Fireball was discussed... IMO, the main reason for RT is the 2 CMC cost. This makes it much easier to tutor for than a 1 CMC sorcery. If you have to jump through tutor hoops to get your spell, you waste much more mana than the extra R on Rolling Thunder.
LOL! What about Blue Baby Syndrome? (no...)
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Land Grant is a very interesting idea. I haven't been playing Wellspring already but I could be persuaded to try Land Grant. What is your exact manabase using that. I'm curious which Island snow duals you would also run, if any others.
Dispel and Behold have the same type of reasoning. I want the deck to shift more towards very cheap answers due to the fact that the groups I'm playing with lean more toward the competitive side of things. Dispel often wins a lot of counter wars. I think the split on those will always just vary based on playgroup which means there isn't a "right" answer. I frequently go back and forth on BEB v. the second of Pyroblast/REB.
Behold is also good because it is a cheap draw spell. I am typically foretelling it very early on turns where I've cast some type of ramp and don't need to worry about leaving up answers. The ab ility to toss it out there and get a 2 mana solid draw spell is good. It may not stay long term, but so far I've been happy with it. I have never like Foresee, but I think it mainly boils down to the fact that is isn't an instant. I don't mind paying 4 mana for a draw spell, but I don't want to be tapped down for an entire turn cycle to do so. I've also considered Rain of Revelation multiple times in the same slot.
I had the same thought about Rolling Thunder right after I submitted my post but then didn't remember if I ever went back and mentioned that.
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
Just finished updating my deck list, here it goes:
1 Child of Alara
CREATURES (12)
1 Archaeomancer
1 Augur of Bolas
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Mulldrifter
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Sidisi’s Faithful
1 Wretched Gryff
1 Vedalken Aethermage
ARTIFACTS (1)
1 Darksteel Ingot
ENCHANTMENTS (1)
1 Kaya's Ghostform
INSTANTS (27)
1 Arcane Denial
1 Brainstorm
1 Capsize
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Counterspell
1 Crib Swap
1 Crop Rotation
1 Deprive
1 Devour Flesh
1 Dispel
1 Dizzy Spell
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Fiery Cannonade
1 Forsake the Worldly
1 Growth Spiral
1 Hydroblast
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Negate
1 Perplex
1 Pyroblast
1 Reaping the Graves
1 Shred Memory
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Terminate
1 Undying Evil
1 Village Rites
1 Cleansing Wildfire
1 Compulsive Research
1 Cultivate
1 Farseek
1 Flood of Recollection
1 Grim Discovery
1 Into the North
1 Kodama’s Reach
1 Land Grant
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Extraction
1 Night's Whisper
1 Notion Rain
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Primal Growth
1 Read the Bones
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Secrets of the Golden City
LANDS (39)
1 Command Tower
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Opal Palace
1 Ash Barrens
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Shimmerdrift Vale
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Thriving Bluff
1 Thriving Grove
1 Thriving Heath
1 Thriving Isle
1 Thriving Moor
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Bant Panorama
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Artic Treeline
1 Glacial Floodplain
1 Highland Forest
1 Rimewood Falls
1 Volatile Fjord
1 Woodland Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mortuary Mire
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Tranquil Thicket
5 Island
4 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Organised according to VH's spreadsheet for ease of copy-pasting and functional overview:
RAMP/FIXING (10)
Crop Rotation
Primal Growth
Kodama’s Reach
Cultivate
Sakura-tribe Elder
Darksteel Ingot
Land Grant
Farseek
Into the North
Growth Spiral
CARD DRAW/QUALITY (11)
Brainstorm
Preordain
Night's Whisper
Mulldrifter
Read the Bones
Compulsive Research
Ponder
Notion Rain
Secrets of the Golden City
Augur of Bolas
Coiling Oracle
TUTORS (9)
Dizzy Spell
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Teachings
Dimir Infiltrator
Drift of Phantasms
Vedalken Aethermage
Perplex
Muddle the Mixture
Shred Memory
COUNTERMAGIC (8)
Counterspell
Pyroblast
Hydroblast
Faerie Trickery
Arcane Denial
Deprive
Negate
Dispel
CREATURE REMOVAL/SAC OUTLETS (7)
Devour Flesh
Terminate
Sidisi's Faithful
Mind Extraction
Village Rites
Wretched Gryff
Fleshbag Marauder
RECURSION (7)
Archaeomancer
Flood of Recollection
Undying Evil
Kaya's Ghostform
Grim Discovery
Reaping the Graves
Soul Manipulation
UTILITY (5)
Capsize
Forsake the Worldly
Crib Swap
Cleansing Wildfire
Fiery Cannonade
COMBO/WINCON (3)
Cloud of Faeries
Ghostly Flicker
Rolling Thunder
LANDS (39)
Quite a few changes in this update. I won't go into the mana base anymore than what I already did in my previous posts, but feel free to ask if something seems odd.
Notable cuts:
Treasure Cruise: While powerful and banned in many constructed formats, I find myself hating it in the deck. I can't tutor for it when I need it, it's bad in the opener, almost impossible to recur effectively without severely hurting your GY recursion options.
Deep Analysis: I should have just swapped it for Secrets of the Golden City, but without a clear direction for the deck after the rules changes, I just filled open slots with more draw spells. Draw 3 for 3 that you can recur is just better than draw 4 for 6 and 3 life as a one shot deal. I'd sooner try out Behold the Multiverse than reinstate this card.
Mistmoon Griffin: The overcosted Kaya's Ghostform is gone.
Reap and Sow: I finally realized Crop Rotation did everything this did, only cheaper. It's also hard to tutor for, so doesn't really add that much to your land removal options.
Dimir House Guard: Considering the last three cuts, there's little for him to fetch these days. Good riddance.
Izzet Chronarch: Removing the second recursion wizard takes the 2 wizards + flicker board position off the table so to speak. But if you can achieve that and rub such a fragile recursion engine into your opponents' faces, you're probably already winning with anything. Why not combo out instead? IMO, Mystical Sanctuary fills this slot better. If you want a more combo-oriented deck, you could certainly include this, Brainspoil, Peregrine Drake and Displace to get redundancy in all your combo pieces. I prefer a stronger control element myself.
Notable inclusions:
Growth Spiral and Coiling Oracle: Both good cards on the same power level as other 2 cmc options in the list (Night's Whisper, Augur of Bolas). My thoughts on Explore is that it's roughly like Impulse - not quite good enough for the mana cost.
Dispel/Hydro/Pyro package: Imma try this out, I think it will work well. I've underestimated the power of Hydroblast mainly because I didn't take into account all the gold cards it can kill/counter.
Deprive: I've changed my mind, it is awesome in the deck. It's a late game reusable counter. As long as you don't over-rely on it, it neatly handles what CoA can't, and you won't be making every land drop at this point anyway so replaying Mystic Sanctuary is a non-issue.
Arcane Denial: Included over Dream Fracture mainly because we have so many 1 mana instants now that it's easy to use this as an instant speed Compulsive Research in a 1-on-1 game (negating its drawback in 1-on-1 games).
Fleshbag Marauder: An excellent staple in full power EDH that's been downgraded to common rarity, and it fits right into the deck. It's good on its own, after CoA on indestructibles, to kill CoA, with Ghostly Flicker and your creature recursion.
Fiery Cannonade: Like marauder, this takes the deck in a direction where we're less reliant on the commander - thanks to common rarity cards getting stronger. Certainly not a must-include, but I think it will be strong.
Flood of Recollection: A blue Regrowth, what's not to like? IMO Archaeomancer, Mystic Sanctuary and this card are the best options for instant/sorcery recursion right now and they all fit formidably with the deck's tutors.
Cleansing Wildfire: Already in the spreadsheet, but just wanted to point this card out for anyone building the deck. I think it is the best option for the land removal slot right now, an auto-include for the utility toolbox.
Thinking about:
Behold the Multiverse: Feels nice to have a good option to replace any card that under-performs.
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I like the Land Grant change to the manabase and how it works alongside the Into the North/Farseek package. Looking forward to better and better lands going forward since I still want to cut the panoramas but I'll give them another go. I think the only different I noticde mana wise was that I am playing Simic Growth Chamber over Opal Palace simply because I don't typically see myself wanting to fork over the extra mana for Child later in the game, he's already a sufficiently large beatstick for me.
I only have a few other thoughts on your changes. I am happy to see you being open to shifting towards an overall lower mana curve. I think it makes the early and late game much smoother since you can always have interaction up, and typically a few pieces. I'm not so sold on the Fleshbag Marauder and Fiery Cannonad. Relying on the commander is just what the deck does and I'm not typically worried about the cards that can die to Cannonade if I'm not able to play Child. Fleshbag just seems like a worse version of any other kill spell, the body won't ever stick around and if you want an edict effect, I'd argue you're better off just playing an edict. I'll stick to only Sidisi's Faithful as my creature sacrifice outlet.
I can't ever see myself dropping the double recursion wizard package. That's what made the deck so fun to me originally and I've multiple times considered cutting Cloud of Faeries and centering more around the controlling aspect and Flicker softlock. I want to like Deprive, and I think in a 1v1-centered build it is perfect. In multiplayer it seems way less appealing to me. Flood of Recollection is a card I was excited to try when it was first downshifted, but I think if I want a Regrowth-esque card, I'd go with Reclaim. I'm not sure the deck wants that at the moment, but if you're cutting a recursion wizard, it seems like the next best thing.
I did decide to try out some of the cards you mentioned I've previously given up on. Here is my next out / experimenting with list as well as the list of other cards I'm considering to replace them.
Iffy
- Augur of Bolas
- Coiling Oracle
- Rolling Thunder
- Impulse
Next Up
- Behold the Multiverse
- Crib Swap
- Rain of Revelation
- Reclaim
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
Ramp/Fixing
I'll try Coiling Oracle and Growth Spiral again, but I've always preferred the "guaranteed" ramp of other options. Feels bad when I "miss" the land drop.
Card Draw/Quality
Sea Gate Oracle doesn't look at as many cards as Augur of Bolas, but it is guaranteed to replace itself. Again, I prefer the guarantee. I saw your argument for cutting Treasure Cruise, but it doesn't sit right with me. Even if I cast it once in the mid-to-late game it seems worth it!
Tutors
We all cut Dimir House Guard. I am running a different reanimation package than you two, so it might make sense for me to leave it in.
Countermagic
We are all trying out lots of blasts. They are versatile. In my experience, the "drawback" of milling two for Psychic Strike is equivalent to not being able to counter faerie spells. It's close. Psychic Strike is a hard counter that does not require UU. I would run Cancel over Dream Fracture, but I don't run either. Arcane Denial and Dream Fracture both allow my opponent to draw cards. Arcane Denial is hard counter 2MV (mana value) and requires only one U mana. I might give it another try, but Condescend always comes through for me and gives me a scry. Dispel seems like it could be fantastic at the right time. So does Deprive. Lots of options!
Creature Removal/Sacrifice Outlets
Fleshbag Marauder can't be better than Village Rites, can it? Fiery Cannonade can't be better than Village Rites. I guess what I'm saying is that Village Rites is good.
Recursion
I like spells that put CoA directly into play from the graveyard (Breath of Life, False Defeat). Disturbed Burial has to be better than Grim Discovery, right? How often is that other mode (returning a land) putting in work? When I play Disturbed Burial with Buyback, my opponent usually concedes in response.
Utility
I can see the argument for Cleansing Wildfire. There are lots of troublesome lands out there. And it replaces itself. And it's a red Crop Rotation (sort of). In a group game, I can usually get away with sitting behind Spore Frog / Disturbed Burial for quite a while, long enough to set up a haymaker turn or get Capsize online.
Combo/Wincon
I see the argument that tutoring for Rolling Thunder (2MV) is easier than tutoring for Fireball (1MV). I still can count on one hand the number of times I've won with the combo, so more often than not I'd rather naturally draw Fireball than Rolling Thunder to act as a removal spell.
Land
I haven't made any changes for snow yet. The reality is that I am hitting all five colors of mana to cast CoA on turn 4 or 5 a high percentage of the time already without making any changes. I appreciate the different ways you approach building the mana base for your deck. The math approach is cool. Thank you for the write-up. We have so many (great!) options for the mana base now. Amazing!
- Impulse
- Dream Fracture
- Augur of Bolas
+ Behold the Multiverse
+ Psychic Strike (maybe Deprive later)
+ Sea Gate Oracle
I am also strongly considering switching Tranquil Thicket to the UG or GB Campus and then changed Grim Discovery to something else as well. Maybe I cut Coiling Oracle for Spore Frog and play Disturbed Burial / Grim Harvest and aim for the grind more often than not.
EDIT: I also like the new card Resculpt in place of Crib Swap
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
This deck is a pile of lands, color-fixing, ramp, tutoring, card draw, recursion, utility, removal, and counters that is almost entirely focused on playing CoA as early as possible and blowing up the board until you win with card advantage. For as long as I've been keeping the spreadsheet, we all run approximately the same number of cards in each category. It comes down to which cards we want to run to make the magic happen. Some cards are objectively better than others. Some are subjectively better. Some cards choices come down to preference. I appreciate you all taking the time to keep the conversation going.
Check out Study Hall from C21. Seems like it's worth trying as a replacement for Opal Palace. I'd rather have the Scry than the +1/+1 counter.
Ramp/Fixing
Environmental Sciences is interesting because it is colorless for the rare time that you end up with a hand that doesn't have the right mana.
Letter of Acceptance is interesting because it replaces itself, albeit at a worse rate than Commander's Sphere.
Card Draw/Quality
Eureka Moment is interesting because it is instant speed, draws two, and ramps.
Crushing Disappointment is interesting because it is instant speed, draws two, and causes life loss to all players.
Thrilling Discovery is interesting because it's a filter card that is worded generously. Compare to Cathartic Reunion.
Recursion
Infuse with Vitality is a 2MV Undying Evil variant with life gain. Could be easier to tutor for in this list.
Utility
Introduction to Annihilation is a 5MV exile card, but more limited than Scour from Existence.
Resculpt is a less flexible Ravenform variant.
Lands
Archway Commons is another land in a long line of lands that do the same thing but with a different name. The mana base does not need it, but here it is anyway.
Prismari Campus is interesting because it offers a scry. This set includes lands with other two color combinations that do the same thing. I'm not sure if any of these lands earn a slot. By the time I'm tapping the equivalent of 5 mana, I probably have better things to do than to scry 1.
If you like Infuse with Vitality, I'd recommender Abnormal Endurance or Demonic Gifts instead. Same effect without the life gain, and a little easier to cast.
The other other card I had on my radar to potentially try is Resculpt. I already don't play Crib Swap or Ravenform, but if I did, I think I'd play Resculpt for the simple fact that the 4/4 seems like it would be fairly negligible in most circumstances.
This is the deck that gets me most excited for spoiler season! Can't wait for more on MH2 and the D&D set.
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
I spent far too long from the upgrade options for our beloved deck. I need to tell I loved the snow duals and the new ramps that help us with those lands. And WHAT is dat Land Grant? Beautiful.
I already put my deck in the spreadsheet (will update my sig later).
Here are my main thoughts (mostly personal taste):
- no Growth Spiral for me. It's way too situational to be considered a ramp spell. Coiling Oracle is the same but can be reused more easily, and replaces itself leaving a 1/1 creature.
- no Compulsive Research for me. I simply hate the idea of discarding 1/2 cards just for the sake of digging 1 card deeper (ok, it's an instant but still). I prefer Deep Analysis, more useful in mid- and late game IMO.
- Perilous Research is in the deck since its beginning but it's kinda weak as a sac outlet because it can be countered. That's why I prefer Altar's Reap - even when it's countered, CoA blows away.
- I ditched Opal Palace and Study Hall only because they are slower and don't help to cast CoA on t4. Both are wonderful in any other aspect.
- On Jund Panorama: like Bant, fixes Forest, a splash color, and a main color. More useful than Grixis IMO but as I ditched the 2 lands above, I go with 3 Panoramas. And they filter basic lands so I can draw spells more frequently as well.
- Adding Salvager of Secrets, Peregrine Drake, and Displace because I am a combo freak
- Resculpt seems better than Angelic Purge. We lose a sac outlet but hey, it's instant, it's blue, it's cheaper. Will look for one.
Edit: Witch's Cottage, anyone?
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I've read the whole thread and fell in love with the deck and its concept! Here's my non-tested take on it:
1 Child of Alara
Creature
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Sidisi's Faithful
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Vedalken Aethermage
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Archaeomancer
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Peregrine Drake
1 Salvager of Secrets
1 Mulldrifter
1 Wretched Gryff
Enchantment
1 Kaya's Ghostform
Land
1 Jund Panorama
1 Mortuary Mire
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Grixis Panorama
1 Bant Panorama
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Thriving Moor
1 Thriving Heath
1 Thriving Isle
1 Thriving Bluff
1 Thriving Grove
1 Ash Barrens
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Command Tower
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Arctic Treeline
1 Glacial Floodplain
1 Highland Forest
1 Rimewood Falls
1 Volatile Fjord
1 Woodland Chasm
4 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Shimmerdrift Vale
1 Darksteel Ingot
Instant
1 Dizzy Spell
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Perplex
1 Shred Memory
1 Undying Evil
1 Devour Flesh
1 Psychic Strike
1 Dispel
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Displace
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Forsake the Worldly
1 Capsize
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Terminate
1 Altar's Reap
1 Crop Rotation
1 Brainstorm
1 Costly Plunder
1 Negate
1 Preordain
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Village Rites
Sorcery
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Land Grant
1 Mind Extraction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainspoil
1 Into the North
1 Ponder
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Farseek
1 Deep Analysis
1 Read the Bones
1 Night's Whisper
1 Primal Growth
1 Grim Discovery
1 Secrets of the Golden City
1 Notion Rain
1 Cultivate
1 Cleansing Wildfire
1 Kodama's Reach
What do you guys think about MH2? I feel like there are some contenders, or at least, alternatives:
Step Through A new wizard tutor! For people like Alexandre and I that are more combo-focused, I think this one is a slam dunk; I think I'd run it even in a more controllish build;
Unholy Heat How fast do you guys enable delirium? As I have little experience with the deck, I cannot tell for sure. Since it conveniently kills CoA, I guess it is usable;
Revolutionist A more expensive Salvager of Secrets. I don't think 5R is better than 3UU, so, I pass;
Echoing Return It does not have the utility of Grim Discovery, nor can we use it to its fullest potential;
Bone Shards It sacs CoA and removes planeswalkers. Personally, I might try swapping either Altar's Reap or Costly Plunder for it;
Lose Focus I'm guessing this one will be meta-dependent, can't think of any regular counter that I'd replace for this one;
Mental Journey Draw 3 late game or fix a land in the early game. Would I replace Deep Analysis or Secrets of the Golden City for it? Probably not;
Late to Dinner Interesting Ressurection effect, but from what I see in most of the latest builds, the deck no longer has any need for it.
What do guys think? Did I miss any other card? You guys evaluate cards brilliantly, so I'm eager to hear from you.
@Alexandre: Witch's Cottage would replace Mire, right? I'm not sure if I'd bother doing that, reaching 3 swamps for it and 3 islands for Sanctuary seem like a lot of work...
Cheers,
I added your list to the spreadsheet. I think I captured everything, but let me know if you notice anything out of place.
MH2 Cards You Mentioned
Step Through - (Common) Tutors are always worth looking at for this deck. What would you replace to run this?
Unholy Heat - We have a bunch of ways to consistently trigger CoA, typically with other utility. Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast have the same MV for example, do not require delerium to trigger CoA, and can also be used to counter / destroy blue spells/permanents.
Revolutionist - It is slightly less color-intensive to cast this creature, but it does have a higher MV.
Echoing Return - Agreed. There are better options here.
Bone Shards - Altar's Reap and Costly Plunder draw cards and have the same sacrifice-as-cost. Bone Shards is tutorable with Dizzy Spell, but is a sorcery.
Lose Focus - I like this spell. It splashes and scales. Hits all spell types. Because it replicates, it's also interesting in counter wars.
Mental Journey - This could go into the "refill your hand" slot we all run. I like that it has early utility because of the basic landcycling.
Late to Dinner - I'm the only one who still likes this effect in this deck. Late to Dinner is an upgrade to Breath of Life / False Defeat.
Other Interesting MH2 Cards
Chrome Courier - A less-splashable Sea Gate Oracle with occasional upside and flying. If you want a higher creature count, this is an option.
Dihada's Ploy - A filter card with life gain. Jump-start gets you going again when you draw a brick and need to filter or you have a handful of wrong answers. Does not require double-blue. Instant speed.
Discerning Taste - 3MV, sorcery spell, but looks at 4 cards and sometimes gains you life. I would run Impulse before this. Forbidden Alchemy has flashback, but no life gain.
1) Hard to say which card would be replaced for Step Through; but I guess Salvager of Secrets would be the one. I'd be replacing a target for a tutor that could also grab the cheaper Archaeomancer. Since its MV is 5, Brainspoil would still have a recursion target besides Chronarch in desperate situations.
2) My interest in Unholy Heat and Bone Shards are more on the removal aspect of them than as outlets for CoA, though I cannot say how useful removing planeswalkers is when we have CoA on our side.
3) I Guess I'd run Lose Focus over Faerie Trickery, but since I already don't run it, I'm not interested on it right now. It does seem pretty good tbh.
4) My issue with Mental Journey is its MV, even though its an instant. Dihada's Ploy could be good, you're right.
I would LOVE to replace Vedalken Aethermage with Step Through. It simply looks better - cheaper tutor and more useful when hard casting it. But the newer card isn't tutorable unless you use Brainspoil - but then you could already tutor a wizard with it. So if you're a combo freak a 2cc creature is better to be tutored with a couple tutors - imagine using Muddle the Mixture to tutor Vedalken Aethermage and use it to tutor Archaeomancer. Cast it and return Muddle the Mixture to tutor other combo piece. You can't do these fun things with Step Through so I won't use it for now (will buy 1 for the maybeboard just in case though). And unless you use a couple of other wizards 2 specific tutors seem redundant to me.
As VivienneHell said, Bone Shards is a sorcery and doesn't buy you 2 cards. IMO it's meh compared to the cards you mentioned.
Revolutionist should replace Izzet Chronarch if we had any difficulty to fix blue in this deck. Hence he doesn't fit.
We have 8 islands and 5 swamps in the deck. You're right, Witch's Cottage won't be useful most of the times.
IMO Traumatic Visions is better than Mental Journey (if you look for ramp and utility). And I don't use it. Yet.
I don't know if I like Lose Focus. Maybe it or Traumatic Visions could go in the deck if I needed more counters. More maybeboard at least.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Contact Other Plane - On balance, I'd play Behold the Multiverse before this.
Deadly Dispute - A more flexible Altar's Reap with upside. Can be a strict upgrade or move the deck further into black for this effect. Am I reading this right? You get the treasure token after the Child of Alara sacrifice ability resolves? ***UPDATE: Several confirmations below that you do get the treasure token.
Evolving Wilds - Fancy reprint that maintains the "common" set symbol. I only play cards with the common set symbol in this deck, so it's nice to have options. The fancy reprints usually use a gold symbol.
Fates' Reversal - This one is a reach if you wanted to play Dungeons. You'd need to go deep on other sub-optimal cards, though.
Feign Death - Similar to Undying Evil. You can Feign Death a creature that already has a +1/+1 counter on it, but it does return tapped.
Minimus Containment - This *would* be great, except it gets blown up when Child triggers, releasing whatever terrible thing contained therein. ***UPDATE: See post by Reaper9889 below. This is not an Oblivion Ring effect; it's an enchantment. So, Child will destroy it and whatever it is enchanting at the same time. It acts as a removal spell for any nonland permanent, albeit with some gotchas.
You Find the Villains' Lair - Good stuff. Not as a replacement for a counter spell, unless you are running one of the other 3MV mono-blue counters like Faerie Trickery. But as a replacement for a filter card. I'm looking at my card drawing/filtering slots for this one.
What did I miss? Anything else look exciting or worth discussing?
I didn't find any card that you haven't already mentioned particularly interesting, I guess this will be a slow set for us (which is pretty understandable given the maturity of the list and the fact Kaldheim and Jumpstart had already done a lot for the mana base, which is something that had rarely been improved in pauper in prior years, though Modern Horizons II has also stepped up the game with the dual indestructible artifact lands, so, who knows, maybe we will start playing untapped duals next year).
Deadly dispute and Feign Death are the cards I believe could be used: Deadly Dispute will replace Altar's Reap for me (I also think we get to keep the treasure, as it is part of the effect of the spell, which would happen after CoA gets sacced and its ability solved). Feign Death will replace Kaya's Ghostform, as I value its instant speed more than protection from exile effects.
I really wish I could play more often with this deck, as I believe discussing matchups and overall strategies when playing the deck could also bring a lot to the table. I'm considering building it on MTGO so that I can always have a place to play whenever I find some time.
Note that Minimus Containment and the card it is enchanting will both get destroyed at the same time, since Minimus makes it into a (non-land) artifact with no abilities except for the mana one. Also, it is not that great on commanders, simnce the owner of the commander can sac it for mana.
I'll edit my previous post to reflect this better information. Thank you, Reaper9889. You rock.
I noticed that on the recent lists, you are all running Land Grant. None of you are running Nature's Lore or Three Visits. Why?
Land Grant can occasionally be cast for no mana, but it requires you to a) have a hand with no lands in it and (crucially) b) reveal your hand. Otherwise, the casting cost is the same as the other two options (1G) but the effect is much worse. Land Grant puts the forest card into your hand. The other two spells put the forest card onto the battlefield. That's a massive difference.
In other words, 100% of the time, the effect from Land Grant is worse than the effect from Nature's Lore or Three Visits. But some percentage of the time, you can cast Land Grant "for free." Except, it's not really free because you need to reveal your hand.
How often are you casting Land Grant for free? And when you are, how often would have rather have ramped the land onto the battlefield rather than just putting it into your hand?
A couple of scenarios:
You draw an opening hand with 0-1 lands and Land Grant. Is this hand really keepable because of Land Grant (casting it for free on an early turn)?
You draw an opening hand with 2 lands and Land Grant. Would Nature's Lore of Three Visits be better here?
You are in the first 4 turns of the game. Is Land Grant the best land fixing spell when you are trying to ramp into Child?
You are in the mid-game and you topdeck Land Grant. Is the ability to cast Land Grant for free at this point in the game useful?
You are in the late game and you topdeck Land Grant. Is the ability to cast Land Grant for free at this point in the game useful?
There aren't many times when I'd rather have Land Grant. I'd rather pay the mana and put the land onto the battlefield. Playing it for free and revealing my hand is asking for trouble. If Land Grant did the exact same thing as Nature's Lore, but had the optional "play for free" clause, I could see why it would be the clear winner for this slot. But it doesn't do the same thing as Nature's Lore. What am I missing?
I haven't actually considering swapping Land Grant for Three Visits, so I can't help much about that, but @Urdjur explained using LG a few posts back and I quite agree with what was said:
I for one really enjoy fixing hands with no green sources with it, because it pretty much guarantees at least 4 colors very early in game.
Ramp/Fixing
Since I finally got around to adding snow lands, I updated the ramping and fixing spells. I like Commander's Sphere instead of Darksteel Ingot. By the time I'm casting Child and blowing up the world, I'd rather have the additional card from the Sphere. Basically, it ramps when I need ramp, fixes when I need fixing, and cycles (for a new card) exactly when I don't need it anymore.
I'm also running Wood Elves, Nature's Lore, and Three Visits. I value guaranteed search and ramp.
Card Draw/Quality
I'm running Impulse in the Sea Gate Oracle slot. I'd rather see more cards than have the body on the battlefield. I'm also trying You Find the Villains' Lair. I like both modes (filtering and countering).
Countermagic
I'm running all four blasts. I think of these as 1MV spells to trigger Child at instant speed with upside in a bunch of matches. They can act as removal and counterspells for blue and red, both of which show up in most games.
Creature Removal/Sacrifice Outlets
I'm running Deadly Dispute over Terminate. Terminate is great at what it does, but I rarely need that effect. I'd rather have another way to draw cards and trigger Child.
Recursion
I'm running all three: False Defeat / Breath of Life / Late to Dinner. I'd rather skip all the steps and put Child back onto the battlefield from the graveyard directly. I'm also running Feign Death over Kaya's Ghostform. Surprise!
Utility
I'm running Minimus Containment in the Forsake the Worldly / Angelic Purge slot. It hits (almost) everything.
Land
It's winter.
Most of the other changes seem fine to me. I've tinkered with Impulse but typically find it underwhelming so it never sticks around. I may end up back on some of the False Defeat-like effects, but I don't think I'd go all-in on all of them. I usually want to find one of the more engine-ish recursion cards (Disturbed Burial/Reaping the Graves/Grim Harvest) and have the other recursion be there just in case.
I am interested to hear how you feel about Minimus Containment. I opt for Forsake the Worldly because I can cycle it when I run into early on and don't need it, knowing I can likely recur it later as needed. If you're opting for Minimus, I'd also recommend trying out Faith's Fetters since it doesn't give the opponent access to something like a commander as easily by just sacrificing the newly created Treasure.
P.S. My list has now been updated on the spreadsheet as well!
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
You are right. I had them both in the list while I was working on it and deleted the wrong one! Fixed!
I like this effect 3MV and I like that Minimus Containment hits (almost) everything. It's more of a tempo play since I'm just trying to get the Child loop going. Ultimately, being able to cycle Forsake the Worldly might push it over, but I wanted to give the new card a try here.
Sweet! Thank you for keeping the list up to date. I see that you've got Quandrix Campus in your list now. Let us know how that goes!