Supernatural Stamina never got much discussion so I doubt Abnormal Endurance will either. I think Graceful Reprieve is a little better than both (albeit in a splash color) for blocking purposes but is still below the bar when it comes to consideration for the deck.
Hi folks! I haven't forgotten about this deck or the primer, and I've resumed updating the primer! Just wanted to give my thoughts on the discussion since I was last here:
On Secrets of the Golden City: Instant staple IMO! I think it's better than Compulsive Research and could replace that in many lists, unless you have some specific land recursion focus. Good find!
I do not get the love for Angelic Purge. I get that it saves space as removal and sac outlet, but it is a very bad sac outlet and merely passable as removal as a sorcery. Mind Extraction wins games and sometimes is clunky.
@Overheat: I agree to some extent - it's overcosted as a sorcery and should either be instant speed or cost 2. IMO, Angelic Purge is good because it saves space and does many things at one time. As I'm typing on the primer and reviewing the various lists in the spreadsheet, it appears to me that we have a core deck with certain "packages" that you might or might not run. Purge seems best in combo packed decks where you want to save on removal and sac outlets to get more room for stuff like Peregrine Drake and Brainspoil. Specifically, I think you should run either Angelic Purge OR Primal Growth to have a 3 CMC back-up sac outlet to Mind Extraction. If you don't run Purge, you should certainly run cards like Unmake instead. I also really like Forsake the Worldly from Amonkhet in such a more control oriented build.
On Salvager of Secrets: IMO, this should replace Scrivener if someone still runs him. Having 2 targets for Brainspoil seems to make it even better. I still prefer Vedalken Aethermage over the 3rd recursion wizard, but I could see someone not wanting to run the aethermage and instead go for 3 recursion wizards, Mnemonic Wall and Brainspoil (and Drake and Displace). If you play 2 wizards and aethermage, then I can't really say if this is better or worse than Izzet Chronarch - I guess I'd have to go with Chronarch for leaving you with more blue sources after playing him, but the differences is academic.
Supernatural Stamina never got much discussion so I doubt Abnormal Endurance will either. I think Graceful Reprieve is a little better than both (albeit in a splash color) for blocking purposes but is still below the bar when it comes to consideration for the deck.
Yeah, I swear by Undying Evil, but is both better and cheaper than these and most importantly run as a target for Dizzy Spell. Other to-play recursion effects such as Shade's Form, Breath of Life and Mistmoon Griffin also seem more worthwhile than Graceful Reprieve, even if they are more expensive. Maybe I should still include Reprieve as a solid recursion option among many others in the primer?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
On Secrets of the Golden City: Instant staple IMO! I think it's better than Compulsive Research and could replace that in many lists, unless you have some specific land recursion focus. Good find!
I actually run Secrets in the spot most others' are playing Treasure Cruise. I find it to be better early and when you don't have enough chaff in the graveyard to take full advantage of Treasure Cruise. I still like Compulsive Research to help develop the deck's recursion and in rare occasions serve as an alternate win con.
On Secrets of the Golden City: Instant staple IMO! I think it's better than Compulsive Research and could replace that in many lists, unless you have some specific land recursion focus. Good find!
I actually run Secrets in the spot most others' are playing Treasure Cruise. I find it to be better early and when you don't have enough chaff in the graveyard to take full advantage of Treasure Cruise. I still like Compulsive Research to help develop the deck's recursion and in rare occasions serve as an alternate win con.
Cruise can be clunky in your opener but is godly later - especially in this deck where it can serve as pseudo-recursion to put CoA in your command zone. That said, there are many, many good draw options and I've found it's not a clean swap as some draw options (like Compulsive Research) get better depending on what other cards you run (more on this below).
In my work with the primer, I have scrutinized the lists in the spreadsheet as well as card choices both new and old, and I've come up with something really interesting: The card pool has become so good that I think we really need to start looking at the deck in terms of a common core of tier 1 staples, and synergistic packages of tier 2 options that are better together. Here's what I've found:
1) I have identified a core of 40 spells and 33 lands that I believe everybody should be running. That's 73 out of 99 cards.
2) The next step is to select your mana base style. There are three options: A Far Wanderings package with more basics, a Trinket Mage package with artifact lands and a Tilling Treefolk package with panoramas and cyclers. There are also synergistic choices in terms of additional land fixing and ramp: for example, the Treefolk package makes better use of Crop Rotation while Trinket Mage makes better use of Wayfarer's Bauble. All in all there is a 9 card difference between the packs, putting the card total at 73+9=82 with 38 lands.
3) Then comes the choice between a more combo-focused or control-focused synergistic package. The combo package runs more recursion wizards and cards like Brainspoil, Peregrine Drake and Displace, but must save on silver bullets and spot removal. The control package runs Vedalken Aethermage, Qasali Pridemage and more of the high quality spot removal/counters that are so prevalent in pauper. All in all there is a 10 card difference, with some flex slots – particularly in the control package since you'd pick your silver bullets based on meta and personal preference. This puts us at 82+10=92 cards.
4) Then there are 4 contested slots with fixed functionality but varying content: 2 additional draw/cantrip, 1 additional sac outlet and 1 additional land fetch/ramp. Recommendations for the draw spells come primarily from what kind of packages you picked in steps 2 and 3. For example, Rush of Knowledge is better in the combo package with Brainspoil and many high CMC wizards, whereas Compulsive Research is better with the Treefolk package for feeding the yard with land. Alternately, you can chose other more exotic options here like Impulse, Rhystic Study or Mystic Remora. The sac outlet is most often Wretched Gryff or the second copy of REB/Pyroblast, but can also be Hydroblast, Tragic Slip or Innocent Blood – basically any one mana way to off CoA with additional functionality to taste and meta. The additional land fetch/ramp slot is your choice of more fringe options like Evolution Charm, Commander's Sphere and Yavimaya Elder or even an extra land of your choice. All in all, this puts the total at 96 cards.
5) Finally this leaves 3 slots that are completely up to player preference. Fill them with the best cards from the packages you didn't chose, pick from a large list of solid recommendations or chose your own wacky pet cards that you like to play with.
All in all, this defines 6 sub-archetypes of the deck (2*3 from the choice of combo vs. control focus, and three different mana bases) with an additional 7-10 slots of variance due to player's choice. I will be updating the primer with complete lists and card motivations as outlined above in the near future. I would be very thankful if the thread regulars would comment after in case there is a choice you disagree with (for example “this card is not good enough to be core” or “this package is better served with this spell over this one”). I'll let y'all know as the primer progresses!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
Gents - the pandorica has opened, which means to say, the primer is finally updated! Hope it inspires you to deck overhauls long overdue I know it has completely changed how I view many cards in the deck. Your feedback is very much appreciated, as requested in my post above.
Super perfundo on the early eve of your day!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
- I have the combo package, but as of now I use Mycosynth Wellspring, Disturbed Burial, and Vedalken AEthermage instead of Farhaven Elf (depends on green, more expensive, more prone to spot removal, but works with Displace), Urborg Uprising (I prefer the buyback option, more straightforward as you said), and Mnemonic Wall (more clunky but I can filter the deck and look for Sidisi's Faithful as well, actually I think it should be core because of these search possibilities and reuse of it just like any transmute creature card).
- I have the Far Wanderings mana base but using Reap and Sow instead of Krosan Tusker (tutoring utility lands or double ones to combo with the Faerie is more priority than ramping because I already have some spells to do it).
Thank you for the update, urdjur. I can't believe that we are still talking about this deck years later! This is still my favorite deck for Commander multiplayer and 1-vs-1.
The way I evaluate cards for this deck is driven by my assumption that this is a control deck that is trying to survive into the long-game where it wins with overwhelming card advantage.
The win-con is almost always one of the following:
1) Multiple Opponents: Looping CoA until they give up (because it is clear that I will eventually win anyway).
2) One Opponent: Casting Capsize with buyback twice each turn until they give up (because it is clear that I will eventually win anyway).
There are corner cases that will also result in a win, like quick CoA beats and assembling the combo kill. But, I usually win one of the first two ways. Once the game is on lock, you can win with Sakura-Tribe Elder beats for all that it matters. Your mileage may vary.
When I shuffle up with CoA, it is my game to lose. In other words, my deck already contains everything it needs to win. If I lose, it's because I didn't evaluate the threats properly. This is in contrast to some of my other decks where when I shuffle up it is my game to win, where even if I do everything exactly right I sometimes still lose. CoA is not that kind of deck. When I lose, 90%+ of the time it is because I screwed up, 5% is mana screw, and the other 5% is that the other decks are way, way too crazy and nothing I could do would matter anyway. (I lose more than 10% of the time, but WHEN I lose, it's usually my fault. I missed an important play. I tutored for the wrong card. I countered the wrong spell. I killed CoA too early. That kind of thing. Does this make sense?)
So, I evaluate cards like this:
1) Does this card help me set up one of my two primary "win conditions"?
2) Does this card stop the other player from stopping me set up one of my two primary win conditions?
3) Does this card stop the other player from doing something that makes them win faster than I can set up one of my two primary win conditions?
4) Does this card make my deck "smaller"?
5) Is this the card with the most efficient cost for the effect?
And, well, that's about it. The deck is just a good mix of cards that satisfy those criteria and then lands to cast all those cards.
With the primer updated, are we to a point where we want to start having single card / strategy discussions?
I'll give you an example.
I've lost more games to Emeria, the Sky Ruin than I can count. Once that gets online and starts looping Sun Titan, I have a difficult time getting control back. So, my deck needs at least one way to destroy a land. That effect has to be in the 99 somewhere or I am tacitly accepting that I will lose in those situations. What are my options?
Scour From Existence hits everything, but it's a lot of mana. Wrecking Ball has good utility and can trigger CoA. Reap and Sow has good utility and optional card advantage. You can make arguments for which one is best depending on your other mix of cards, but my point is that unless you have at least one of these cards you will not have a way to interact with troublesome lands.
Think of the last time you did everything right and still lost. What got you? Was it an indestructible God? Was it an overwhelming Genesis Wave? Was it graveyard-based? How did they beat you? Did you have an answer for it in your deck and just couldn't get there? Or did you have no option to win at all?
But I disagree with some lands (only the UBG lifegain and double duals are core IMO)
This is how I look at it: The UBG double duals are the best ones, to be sure. You should run those even if you don't run Cloud of Faeries combo. However, since the combo is core, it's hard to recommend a combo requiring 2 out of 3 double duals when you could easily be running more. Running too many can also be bad for combo, because you need at least one of them to be blue in order to go infinite. Since there are 4 blue double duals, it makes the most sense to run those and the golgari one, because then any two of them will be good for combo, while there is still little risk that you will draw more than two spontaneously in a game. The only thing we must take care to do then, is to not run too many dedicated sources. For example, Izzet Boilerworks is a dedicated red and blue source. It is with Island in your opening 7 and bad with Mountain in your early-to-mid game.
The ETBT lifegain duals are another matter. They are NOT dedicated sources - we need them because they are flexible. The UG one is the best one - it gives us green, which is the color we need the most on turn 2-4, and blue, which is the color we need the most on turn 2+. I think we should only run these when they are better than the basics they replace. This is why I don't like Dismal Backwater. The dedicated U and B sources are already pretty maxed out. Each of the three mana bases has 10 dedicated black sources and 10 dedicated blue sources. If your opener contains Dismal Backwater, chances are it will still be redundant because you will already have both a black and a blue source. It just adds too little for the drawback of entering tapped.
So then, what about cards like Blossoming Sands then - do they add enough to justify entering tapped? If UG is the best combination, wouldn't something like Simic Guildgate be better? Surely, the 1 extra life can't matter. Quite so, I don't think it does. The thing is though, that we actually NEED all colors to cast our commander. So if you stock up on only UGB ETBT duals, you *will* be fetching both Mountain and Plains with your green ramp and fixing. That is much worse than having those colors in non-dedicated lands. Since you're so full on dedicated blue and black already, it makes sense to make these green. I'm a firm believer that the deck wants 20 green sources that are available by turn 3. 20 sources in a 100 card deck is the same as the 12 sources you always need in a 60 deck to play a color consistently. Each of the three mana base options ends up with 20 green sources. Each build also presents a total of 8 non-gold red and white sources total. That means we have a good chance of having at least one of either R or W mana in a dual or dedicated source, so we don't need to waste gold sources or green ramp on both our off colors.
Vedalken AEthermage [...] actually I think it should be core because of these search possibilities and reuse of it just like any transmute creature card).
I kinda agree personally. Still, few people run it, same as Brainspoil. I couldn't really justify putting it in core for these reasons. I think that if Aethermage moves to core, Mnemonic Wall needs to go on the optional flex slots - then we can cut one slot from the combo/control packages and move it to core. To be sure, Aethermage has applicability in both builds.
- I have the Far Wanderings mana base but using Reap and Sow instead of Krosan Tusker (tutoring utility lands or double ones to combo with the Faerie is more priority than ramping because I already have some spells to do it).
I wasn't really sure where to put the Tusker. Far Wanderings package doesn't benefit from Tusker in the same obvious way that Trinkets benefit from Wayfarer's Bauble or Treefolks benefit from Harrow. It's just a Good Card (TM), that happens to be even better when you have lots of basics to abuse it with. Still, with no way to get it, it is kind of random - and with many ways to get Far Wanderings, it is also kind of redundant. I'm also thinking that maybe Reap and Sow should be core, taking away even more from the control package and putting more pressure to reduce the combo package in turn.
Costly Plunder came in again as a uncounterable and response-proof sac outlet, safer than Perilous Research, which comes out of the deck as of now.
I think it's best in the Trinkets mana base, and if you don't run Research, you should probably have BEB/Hydroblast over your second copy of REB/Pyro as a tutor target for Merchant Scroll.
With the primer updated, are we to a point where we want to start having single card / strategy discussions?
Absolutely!
Scour From Existence hits everything, but it's a lot of mana. Wrecking Ball has good utility and can trigger CoA. Reap and Sow has good utility and optional card advantage. You can make arguments for which one is best depending on your other mix of cards, but my point is that unless you have at least one of these cards you will not have a way to interact with troublesome lands.
Yeah, I'm thinking R&S should be core. The combo build might end up with no land removal except Capsize, which is probably subpar considering R&S can also get a double land for combo. I think Wrecking Ball should perhaps be in the mandatory control package as well. The thing is, you can't tutor very well for R&S. You only have Dimir House Guard, which you can't get with anything else either. So that's 2 outs in 99 cards. If you see 33 cards before the problem land hits, you have about a 55% chance of getting one of the 2, which means at least you won't lose to it 55% of the time, even when playing the combo build, if R&S is core. Quite bad odds for control though. Wrecking Ball adds another source of land removal AND tutors with Teachings (which in turn tutors with Merchant Scroll and further down the chain), so it adds quite a lot of consistency for the control build.
The win-con is almost always one of the following:
1) Multiple Opponents: Looping CoA until they give up (because it is clear that I will eventually win anyway).
2) One Opponent: Casting Capsize with buyback twice each turn until they give up (because it is clear that I will eventually win anyway).
There are corner cases that will also result in a win, like quick CoA beats and assembling the combo kill. But, I usually win one of the first two ways. Once the game is on lock, you can win with Sakura-Tribe Elder beats for all that it matters. Your mileage may vary.
That's not how I play the deck most of the time. In multiplayer, I typically go for an early CoA drop, attack where it's politically safe and instant sac outlet if I'm attacked seriously back. After the first explosion, I go for Flicker or Capsize and drop as much land as I can. Then I either win with flicker combo or go into looping CoA.
In 1v1 games with people that have commanders that cost 6+ mana or take a long while to get going, I sometimes rely exclusively on Capsize as soon as I have 6+ mana on board. Usually after a CoA explosion that takes out ramp artifacts first.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
However, since the combo is core, it's hard to recommend a combo requiring 2 out of 3 double duals when you could easily be running more.
Sorry, I meant UBG lifegain duals and all 4 U double duals. I run these.
I'm a firm believer that the deck wants 20 green sources that are available by turn 3.
(...) That means we have a good chance of having at least one of either R or W mana in a dual or dedicated source, so we don't need to waste gold sources or green ramp on both our off colors.
We need 1 green source in our first 9 cards, which is equivalent to 11 green sources in our 99-card deck. Mine has 16 counting all lands (12 if I don't count the 4 fetches) so I think I'm OK on this.
In addition to that, for any red or white color I have 4 fetches, a double dual, 2 basics, and Darksteel Ingot, which gives me 8 sources of splash colors, or 8/99 = .9696/12 ~ 1/12 = 1 source by turn 5 on the play. So with this config I am able to reach green with gold lands and without fetches by turn 3 and 1 splash color by turn 5 with fetches and without gold lands. So I need to ramp 1 splash color. In mid-to-late game I need as many UB sources as I can have so I can tweak my lifegain/double duals if/when I see I mana screw on this config, which I didn't realized yet.
Costly Plunder came in again as a uncounterable and response-proof sac outlet, safer than Perilous Research, which comes out of the deck as of now.
I think it's best in the Trinkets mana base, and if you don't run Research, you should probably have BEB/Hydroblast over your second copy of REB/Pyro as a tutor target for Merchant Scroll.
This is the only drawback of having Costly Plunder, but we still have 3 (instead of 4) tutors to have it. IMO it's a good price for being uncounterable and response-proof. At least twice my opponent had Swords to Plowshares or Counterspell to screw my wipe, and these cards are useless with CP. Of course, one could counter it so I don't buy 2 cards
Scour From Existence hits everything, but it's a lot of mana. Wrecking Ball has good utility and can trigger CoA. Reap and Sow has good utility and optional card advantage. You can make arguments for which one is best depending on your other mix of cards, but my point is that unless you have at least one of these cards you will not have a way to interact with troublesome lands.
This is one of the very few Achille's Heels of this deck. This and GY hate are bad for us. But you can always exile Sun Titan or do the Spore Frog soft lock meanwhile so you can defend yourself using other cards in your example.
That's not how I play the deck most of the time. In multiplayer, I typically go for an early CoA drop, attack where it's politically safe and instant sac outlet if I'm attacked seriously back. After the first explosion, I go for Flicker or Capsize and drop as much land as I can. Then I either win with flicker combo or go into looping CoA.
In 1v1 games with people that have commanders that cost 6+ mana or take a long while to get going, I sometimes rely exclusively on Capsize as soon as I have 6+ mana on board. Usually after a CoA explosion that takes out ramp artifacts first.
Multiplayer: Me too but obviously the combo is almost as primary as the wipe machine.
1v1: I realy almost exclusively on wiping once faster than the opponent establishes a position and then combo or capsize or beats.
With the primer updated, are we to a point where we want to start having single card / strategy discussions?
I think the updated primer is really nice, that said I do not see why the packages must be the same size. Some of the discussion seems to imply that they should NOT be the same size and while it might help simplify the initial description, that seems a bad reason to make the deck weaker.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
I think the updated primer is really nice, that said I do not see why the packages must be the same size. Some of the discussion seems to imply that they should NOT be the same size and while it might help simplify the initial description, that seems a bad reason to make the deck weaker.
I agree with that. The packages should be 'core packages'. Anything else is a flex number of flex slots
The Krosan Tusker/Reap and Sow is an example of this. The semantics are important here for us to determine what one thinks it's vital to be in core and each package.
I think the updated primer is really nice, that said I do not see why the packages must be the same size. Some of the discussion seems to imply that they should NOT be the same size and while it might help simplify the initial description, that seems a bad reason to make the deck weaker.
I agree with this, though I wouldn't exactly call Krosan Tusker (or any other options in the primer) weak cards. Cards like this are run in full power EDH decks with less support than we have, after all. The idea with equal size packages was to simplify deck building for new players while also trying to find more consensus among the best card choices for build variants. But I might have gone overboard.
The Krosan Tusker/Reap and Sow is an example of this. The semantics are important here for us to determine what one thinks it's vital to be in core and each package.
Though I'd like to hear from the other regulars as well, I'm thinking R&S + Aethermage should be in the core of the deck, bumping it up to 75 cards.
It helps if each build would run roughly the same number of lands, fix and acceleration, so I'd try to keep the land packages FAIRLY similar. There can certainly be flexibility in slots though, like an option between Mycosynth Wellspring, Expedition Map or Commander's Sphere for a green source for instance.
I think maybe we shouldn't look at a Combo vs. Control package, so much as a Brainspoil/Drake package of maybe 4-5 cards total. Picking this package will naturally limit your control card slots, making Angelic Purge a more likely pick for such a build, for instance. Are there other such synergistic packages that one might want to include - instead of or in addition to others? The only I can think of is the old Restorer combo.
We need 1 green source in our first 9 cards, which is equivalent to 11 green sources in our 99-card deck. Mine has 16 counting all lands (12 if I don't count the 4 fetches) so I think I'm OK on this.
That's not how the math works unfortunately, because cards aren't evenly distributed in your deck. You're looking at probabilities, and you can calculate them using a hypergeometric distribution calculator, such as this one: https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx
If you input the numbers 99, 11, 9, 1, you will get the probability for getting 1 green source in your first 9 cards if you run 11 of them in a 99 card deck. The probability of 1 or more such sources is 67%. That means one games out of three, you won't have green on turn 3 with so few sources. With 20 sources, the number is 88% instead. In 60 card MtG deck building, the conventional wisdom is that you need 11-12 sources to consistently play a color on turn 1. The equivalent would be roughly 20 sources in EDH. And of course, you can't count green ramp/fix as a green source, since you need green to cast it (but you can certainly count it as a W or R source).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
You're looking at probabilities, and you can calculate them using a hypergeometric distribution calculator
I know the math but I am lazy Actually I have 19 green sources if I count Ingot, Map and Wellspring to achieve it (99,19,9,1 = 86.6%).
And of course, you can't count green ramp/fix as a green source, since you need green to cast it (but you can certainly count it as a W or R source)
If we ignore conditional probability (and we shouldn't but then again, I'm lazy), one turn later, considering 5 ramp spells (R&S is too expensive) and Traumatic Visions the first splash color should be (98,19,10,1 = 89.7%). One turn later, for the 2nd splash color we should have (97,18,11,1 = 90.9%). All numbers are slightly greater when we are on play because the sample size increases by 1.
Sorry if I miscalculated anything. I know this approach is heavily biased because this way I'd ditch a Map when I could fetch a Bog or something but that's feasible to accomplish this - if I didn't screw too much on the math.
I think the updated primer is really nice, that said I do not see why the packages must be the same size. Some of the discussion seems to imply that they should NOT be the same size and while it might help simplify the initial description, that seems a bad reason to make the deck weaker.
I agree with this, though I wouldn't exactly call Krosan Tusker (or any other options in the primer) weak cards. Cards like this are run in full power EDH decks with less support than we have, after all. The idea with equal size packages was to simplify deck building for new players while also trying to find more consensus among the best card choices for build variants. But I might have gone overboard.
I did not mean that any of the cards are weak. Perhaps it would be better to simply remove the control package? From my pov, the only thing that makes it a package is the aethermage + pridemage part (and the former is seemingly moving to core), the rest are just good stuff, and not really better together.
One thing though, I think rend flesh is weaker than victim of night, because 2 mana is so much less than 3 - on the other hand, tribal vampire or zombie are more common than spirit and there are a few annoying vampires we might want to kill before blowing up the child (that said, seedborn muse can be important too)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
I did not mean that any of the cards are weak. Perhaps it would be better to simply remove the control package? From my pov, the only thing that makes it a package is the aethermage + pridemage part (and the former is seemingly moving to core), the rest are just good stuff, and not really better together.
Indeed. Actually, there is a bit of a "package" when looking at Angelic Purge, because it has so many functions in one. It's not good at anything, so you can run better stuff, but it will take up more space. Since more space is a luxury that goes away with the Drake/Brainspoil package, it stands to reason that these builds will be running Purge. But you might be able to do either if you cut corners elsewhere, like in your flex slots. So it's really a separate "deal".
One thing though, I think rend flesh is weaker than victim of night, because 2 mana is so much less than 3 - on the other hand, tribal vampire or zombie are more common than spirit and there are a few annoying vampires we might want to kill before blowing up the child (that said, seedborn muse can be important too)
Victim is clearly the stronger card, however, I think the main reason to run another effect like this is the 3 CMC cost itself. The core already has Terminate (even better than Victim), and 2 other 2 CMC outlets, while there is only 1 at 3CMC (Mind Extraction). So Angelic Purge or Primal Growth has kinda deprecated the need for this slot, but you might end up not running either of those I guess and in that case rend flesh is almost a must. I think Victim is good enough in its own right though that I might include it in the primer, but it gets stiff competition from stuff like Wrecking Ball and Tragic Slip.
Do you see any potential on Forge of Heroes on this deck? I don't think so...
Me neither. Opal Palace is already our weakest gold land and this does even less and fixes no mana.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
I like the primer, it gives a good idea of why we play the cards we do. I would mention that any graveyard hate grinds the deck to a complete halt. Even a Tormod's Crypt on the battlefield means you cannot really do anything but ramp until it gets used on somebody more dangerous. I find the need for three of the recursion engine cards (Harvest, Disturbed, Denied, Reaping) needed so that you do not get locked out by a zero mana card.
By my count I am running 32 of the non-land cards from the core out of 40. I am running different card draw and no Dimir House Guard and friends mainly.
Thanks for chiming in Overheat While I don't think we need a so called "graveyard engine" to win, I do agree that it's prudent to have a back-up to Grim Harvest. Perhaps it's so crucial that it should be part of the core? I think the best second fiddle to Harvest is Disturbed Burial. It doesn't sit in the yard and requires no other creatures. Maybe everybody should just run it? Then we can cut the 2 CMC one shot effects from the land packages and make them optional in the flex slots instead, since then everyone will have two good 2 CMC recursion targets for their tutors.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
Well, IMO it's better than Opal Palace because it's slower for only one turn. We need all fix we can take on a 5-color deck.
Only problem is to have it signed. Need to find this artist now.
SO here is my Deck now. I put the "CORE" Cards at the top of each section. And then the additions at the bottom. Except the lands which i tailored towards my build. I really just enjoy BLOWING up the board and then outlasting the other decks and swinging in and winning because they have nothing left. So that is what my build is built for. I prob have more recursion than most so i can just keep blowing up the board. My play groups decks are prob never over $100 total so not dealing with super powerful decks or anything.
Have a few questions. What combos am I looking at in the "combo finisher section".. Ive never really comboed out and don't necessarily want to but curious what my build has that im not seeing.
Also wanted a clarification on 2 cards.
Sidisi's Faithful I am allowed to sacrifice child of alara and blow up the board then target sidi's and put him back into my hand correct? That is the correct play with that card right?
also Wretched Gryff I sacrifice COA and only have to pay 1 blue mana because of Emerge right ? then COA blows up the board but Gryff stays on the battlefield right? Or does he die as well?
Have a few questions. What combos am I looking at in the "combo finisher section".. Ive never really comboed out and don't necessarily want to but curious what my build has that im not seeing.
Also wanted a clarification on 2 cards.
Sidisi's Faithful I am allowed to sacrifice child of alara and blow up the board then target sidi's and put him back into my hand correct? That is the correct play with that card right?
also Wretched Gryff I sacrifice COA and only have to pay 1 blue mana because of Emerge right ? then COA blows up the board but Gryff stays on the battlefield right? Or does he die as well?
I've played dozens of games with this deck and /never/ pulled off the combo. I've tried both combo versions. I've even played with the specific goal to combo off instead of the more usual route. Still never happened. YMMV, but with every new common they print I can feel myself wanting to remove the combo and just jam more utility.
Yes, that's how Sidisi's Faithful works. He ends up back in your hand with Child in the graveyard and the board all blown to smithereens.
Yes, that's how Wretched Gryff works. You sacrifice Child to pay the casting cost of the Gryff, so the "blow up everything" trigger is on the stack and resolves before the Gryff is even on the battlefield.
I'm not sold on Secrets of the Golden City. Lord knows I love to draw cards, but something deep down inside me avoids spells with two mana symbols of the same color if at all possible. (Apparently, I'm the only person running Psychic Strike?!) Hell, I lost a game just the night with this deck because I didn't have the second blue mana I needed when I needed it. Those losses stick with me. Plus, there's this new common in Guilds of Ravnica that looks cool.
Rain of Notions
1UB
Sorcery
Surveil 2, you draw 2 cards. Rain of Notions deals 2 damage to you.
I'd run this over Secrets of the Golden City. I haven't thought about what I would cut. Probably Cloud of Faeries. =P
Fr0sty, the combo (in your case - some people plays more of one category) consists of Cloud of Faeries + (Ghostly Flicker/Displace) + (Archeomancer/Izzet Chronarch) + 2 bounce lands (like Izzet Boilerworks) incl. at least 1 blue.
With the creatures and lands in play, target a wizard and faeries with ghostly flicker, untapping the bounce lands and returning ghostly flicker (it is in your graveyard before you can put the etb effects on the stack so you can return it). This gives you 4 mana but cost 3. Thus, you got infinite mana.
The key reason why it is a good combo is that except for cloud of faeries, all the others could reasonably well be played anyway and cloud of faeries cycles, so in some sense, you use 0 slots for an infinite mana combo, with a slightly annoying cycle in the worst case. Furtheremore, the wizards are often good on their own, with a wizard, ghostly flicker is typically great and at this point you are very close to the combo, hence doing things you are likely to want to do anyway, you sometimes end up randomly comboing off.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
EDIT: Well, it's not as flexible as DF. If you *need* to avoid some threat without having CoA in board, DF is better... What do you guys think?
EDIT 2: Forget it. It's a sorcery. Duh...
On Secrets of the Golden City: Instant staple IMO! I think it's better than Compulsive Research and could replace that in many lists, unless you have some specific land recursion focus. Good find!
@Overheat: I agree to some extent - it's overcosted as a sorcery and should either be instant speed or cost 2. IMO, Angelic Purge is good because it saves space and does many things at one time. As I'm typing on the primer and reviewing the various lists in the spreadsheet, it appears to me that we have a core deck with certain "packages" that you might or might not run. Purge seems best in combo packed decks where you want to save on removal and sac outlets to get more room for stuff like Peregrine Drake and Brainspoil. Specifically, I think you should run either Angelic Purge OR Primal Growth to have a 3 CMC back-up sac outlet to Mind Extraction. If you don't run Purge, you should certainly run cards like Unmake instead. I also really like Forsake the Worldly from Amonkhet in such a more control oriented build.
On Salvager of Secrets: IMO, this should replace Scrivener if someone still runs him. Having 2 targets for Brainspoil seems to make it even better. I still prefer Vedalken Aethermage over the 3rd recursion wizard, but I could see someone not wanting to run the aethermage and instead go for 3 recursion wizards, Mnemonic Wall and Brainspoil (and Drake and Displace). If you play 2 wizards and aethermage, then I can't really say if this is better or worse than Izzet Chronarch - I guess I'd have to go with Chronarch for leaving you with more blue sources after playing him, but the differences is academic.
Yeah, I swear by Undying Evil, but is both better and cheaper than these and most importantly run as a target for Dizzy Spell. Other to-play recursion effects such as Shade's Form, Breath of Life and Mistmoon Griffin also seem more worthwhile than Graceful Reprieve, even if they are more expensive. Maybe I should still include Reprieve as a solid recursion option among many others in the primer?
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
Cruise can be clunky in your opener but is godly later - especially in this deck where it can serve as pseudo-recursion to put CoA in your command zone. That said, there are many, many good draw options and I've found it's not a clean swap as some draw options (like Compulsive Research) get better depending on what other cards you run (more on this below).
In my work with the primer, I have scrutinized the lists in the spreadsheet as well as card choices both new and old, and I've come up with something really interesting: The card pool has become so good that I think we really need to start looking at the deck in terms of a common core of tier 1 staples, and synergistic packages of tier 2 options that are better together. Here's what I've found:
1) I have identified a core of 40 spells and 33 lands that I believe everybody should be running. That's 73 out of 99 cards.
2) The next step is to select your mana base style. There are three options: A Far Wanderings package with more basics, a Trinket Mage package with artifact lands and a Tilling Treefolk package with panoramas and cyclers. There are also synergistic choices in terms of additional land fixing and ramp: for example, the Treefolk package makes better use of Crop Rotation while Trinket Mage makes better use of Wayfarer's Bauble. All in all there is a 9 card difference between the packs, putting the card total at 73+9=82 with 38 lands.
3) Then comes the choice between a more combo-focused or control-focused synergistic package. The combo package runs more recursion wizards and cards like Brainspoil, Peregrine Drake and Displace, but must save on silver bullets and spot removal. The control package runs Vedalken Aethermage, Qasali Pridemage and more of the high quality spot removal/counters that are so prevalent in pauper. All in all there is a 10 card difference, with some flex slots – particularly in the control package since you'd pick your silver bullets based on meta and personal preference. This puts us at 82+10=92 cards.
4) Then there are 4 contested slots with fixed functionality but varying content: 2 additional draw/cantrip, 1 additional sac outlet and 1 additional land fetch/ramp. Recommendations for the draw spells come primarily from what kind of packages you picked in steps 2 and 3. For example, Rush of Knowledge is better in the combo package with Brainspoil and many high CMC wizards, whereas Compulsive Research is better with the Treefolk package for feeding the yard with land. Alternately, you can chose other more exotic options here like Impulse, Rhystic Study or Mystic Remora. The sac outlet is most often Wretched Gryff or the second copy of REB/Pyroblast, but can also be Hydroblast, Tragic Slip or Innocent Blood – basically any one mana way to off CoA with additional functionality to taste and meta. The additional land fetch/ramp slot is your choice of more fringe options like Evolution Charm, Commander's Sphere and Yavimaya Elder or even an extra land of your choice. All in all, this puts the total at 96 cards.
5) Finally this leaves 3 slots that are completely up to player preference. Fill them with the best cards from the packages you didn't chose, pick from a large list of solid recommendations or chose your own wacky pet cards that you like to play with.
All in all, this defines 6 sub-archetypes of the deck (2*3 from the choice of combo vs. control focus, and three different mana bases) with an additional 7-10 slots of variance due to player's choice. I will be updating the primer with complete lists and card motivations as outlined above in the near future. I would be very thankful if the thread regulars would comment after in case there is a choice you disagree with (for example “this card is not good enough to be core” or “this package is better served with this spell over this one”). I'll let y'all know as the primer progresses!
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
Super perfundo on the early eve of your day!
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
So, according to this new taxonomy I am combo/far wanderings.
Some points from my experience:
- I have 67/73 of your core. But I disagree with some lands (only the UBG lifegain and double duals are core IMO), so I originally had your 73 minus Brainstorm, Preordain (had to let these two go because I was leaning to refer combo pieces than cantrips, rethinking now), Secrets of the Golden City, Opal Palace (totally forgot to put these!!), Golgari Rot Farm, Blossoming Sands, and Rugged Highlands (*). I'd add Dismal Backwater to my core. I will add the 3 first ones replacing most probably Scour from Existence, Primal Growth, and Costly Plunder (***). Still debating to add cantrips and ditching 2 sac outlets but I need to draw/dig as well... The (*) lands are replaced by the already existent Dismal Backwater and (not core but hey) Grixis Panorama and Esper Panorama. Opal Palace will replace an Island (***).
- I have the combo package, but as of now I use Mycosynth Wellspring, Disturbed Burial, and Vedalken AEthermage instead of Farhaven Elf (depends on green, more expensive, more prone to spot removal, but works with Displace), Urborg Uprising (I prefer the buyback option, more straightforward as you said), and Mnemonic Wall (more clunky but I can filter the deck and look for Sidisi's Faithful as well, actually I think it should be core because of these search possibilities and reuse of it just like any transmute creature card).
- I have the Far Wanderings mana base but using Reap and Sow instead of Krosan Tusker (tutoring utility lands or double ones to combo with the Faerie is more priority than ramping because I already have some spells to do it).
The 8 remaining slots are 2 sac outlets (Pyroblast and Wretched Gryff), 2 control (Spore Frog and Unmake), 2 ramp (Crop Rotation and Traumatic Visions), 1 draw/dig (Foresee) and 1 land (Island).
I am still calculating things to see if everything is fine but IMO it is
Thanks again!
(***) Edit:
Costly Plunder came in again as a uncounterable and response-proof sac outlet, safer than Perilous Research, which comes out of the deck as of now.
The (*) lands are replaced by the already existent Dismal Backwater and (not core but hey) Naya Panorama. Opal Palace will replace the Grixis Panorama.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
The way I evaluate cards for this deck is driven by my assumption that this is a control deck that is trying to survive into the long-game where it wins with overwhelming card advantage.
The win-con is almost always one of the following:
1) Multiple Opponents: Looping CoA until they give up (because it is clear that I will eventually win anyway).
2) One Opponent: Casting Capsize with buyback twice each turn until they give up (because it is clear that I will eventually win anyway).
There are corner cases that will also result in a win, like quick CoA beats and assembling the combo kill. But, I usually win one of the first two ways. Once the game is on lock, you can win with Sakura-Tribe Elder beats for all that it matters. Your mileage may vary.
When I shuffle up with CoA, it is my game to lose. In other words, my deck already contains everything it needs to win. If I lose, it's because I didn't evaluate the threats properly. This is in contrast to some of my other decks where when I shuffle up it is my game to win, where even if I do everything exactly right I sometimes still lose. CoA is not that kind of deck. When I lose, 90%+ of the time it is because I screwed up, 5% is mana screw, and the other 5% is that the other decks are way, way too crazy and nothing I could do would matter anyway. (I lose more than 10% of the time, but WHEN I lose, it's usually my fault. I missed an important play. I tutored for the wrong card. I countered the wrong spell. I killed CoA too early. That kind of thing. Does this make sense?)
So, I evaluate cards like this:
1) Does this card help me set up one of my two primary "win conditions"?
2) Does this card stop the other player from stopping me set up one of my two primary win conditions?
3) Does this card stop the other player from doing something that makes them win faster than I can set up one of my two primary win conditions?
4) Does this card make my deck "smaller"?
5) Is this the card with the most efficient cost for the effect?
And, well, that's about it. The deck is just a good mix of cards that satisfy those criteria and then lands to cast all those cards.
With the primer updated, are we to a point where we want to start having single card / strategy discussions?
I'll give you an example.
I've lost more games to Emeria, the Sky Ruin than I can count. Once that gets online and starts looping Sun Titan, I have a difficult time getting control back. So, my deck needs at least one way to destroy a land. That effect has to be in the 99 somewhere or I am tacitly accepting that I will lose in those situations. What are my options?
Scour From Existence
Wrecking Ball
Reap and Sow
Scour From Existence hits everything, but it's a lot of mana. Wrecking Ball has good utility and can trigger CoA. Reap and Sow has good utility and optional card advantage. You can make arguments for which one is best depending on your other mix of cards, but my point is that unless you have at least one of these cards you will not have a way to interact with troublesome lands.
Think of the last time you did everything right and still lost. What got you? Was it an indestructible God? Was it an overwhelming Genesis Wave? Was it graveyard-based? How did they beat you? Did you have an answer for it in your deck and just couldn't get there? Or did you have no option to win at all?
This is how I look at it: The UBG double duals are the best ones, to be sure. You should run those even if you don't run Cloud of Faeries combo. However, since the combo is core, it's hard to recommend a combo requiring 2 out of 3 double duals when you could easily be running more. Running too many can also be bad for combo, because you need at least one of them to be blue in order to go infinite. Since there are 4 blue double duals, it makes the most sense to run those and the golgari one, because then any two of them will be good for combo, while there is still little risk that you will draw more than two spontaneously in a game. The only thing we must take care to do then, is to not run too many dedicated sources. For example, Izzet Boilerworks is a dedicated red and blue source. It is with Island in your opening 7 and bad with Mountain in your early-to-mid game.
The ETBT lifegain duals are another matter. They are NOT dedicated sources - we need them because they are flexible. The UG one is the best one - it gives us green, which is the color we need the most on turn 2-4, and blue, which is the color we need the most on turn 2+. I think we should only run these when they are better than the basics they replace. This is why I don't like Dismal Backwater. The dedicated U and B sources are already pretty maxed out. Each of the three mana bases has 10 dedicated black sources and 10 dedicated blue sources. If your opener contains Dismal Backwater, chances are it will still be redundant because you will already have both a black and a blue source. It just adds too little for the drawback of entering tapped.
So then, what about cards like Blossoming Sands then - do they add enough to justify entering tapped? If UG is the best combination, wouldn't something like Simic Guildgate be better? Surely, the 1 extra life can't matter. Quite so, I don't think it does. The thing is though, that we actually NEED all colors to cast our commander. So if you stock up on only UGB ETBT duals, you *will* be fetching both Mountain and Plains with your green ramp and fixing. That is much worse than having those colors in non-dedicated lands. Since you're so full on dedicated blue and black already, it makes sense to make these green. I'm a firm believer that the deck wants 20 green sources that are available by turn 3. 20 sources in a 100 card deck is the same as the 12 sources you always need in a 60 deck to play a color consistently. Each of the three mana base options ends up with 20 green sources. Each build also presents a total of 8 non-gold red and white sources total. That means we have a good chance of having at least one of either R or W mana in a dual or dedicated source, so we don't need to waste gold sources or green ramp on both our off colors.
I kinda agree personally. Still, few people run it, same as Brainspoil. I couldn't really justify putting it in core for these reasons. I think that if Aethermage moves to core, Mnemonic Wall needs to go on the optional flex slots - then we can cut one slot from the combo/control packages and move it to core. To be sure, Aethermage has applicability in both builds.
I wasn't really sure where to put the Tusker. Far Wanderings package doesn't benefit from Tusker in the same obvious way that Trinkets benefit from Wayfarer's Bauble or Treefolks benefit from Harrow. It's just a Good Card (TM), that happens to be even better when you have lots of basics to abuse it with. Still, with no way to get it, it is kind of random - and with many ways to get Far Wanderings, it is also kind of redundant. I'm also thinking that maybe Reap and Sow should be core, taking away even more from the control package and putting more pressure to reduce the combo package in turn.
I think it's best in the Trinkets mana base, and if you don't run Research, you should probably have BEB/Hydroblast over your second copy of REB/Pyro as a tutor target for Merchant Scroll.
Absolutely!
Yeah, I'm thinking R&S should be core. The combo build might end up with no land removal except Capsize, which is probably subpar considering R&S can also get a double land for combo. I think Wrecking Ball should perhaps be in the mandatory control package as well. The thing is, you can't tutor very well for R&S. You only have Dimir House Guard, which you can't get with anything else either. So that's 2 outs in 99 cards. If you see 33 cards before the problem land hits, you have about a 55% chance of getting one of the 2, which means at least you won't lose to it 55% of the time, even when playing the combo build, if R&S is core. Quite bad odds for control though. Wrecking Ball adds another source of land removal AND tutors with Teachings (which in turn tutors with Merchant Scroll and further down the chain), so it adds quite a lot of consistency for the control build.
That's not how I play the deck most of the time. In multiplayer, I typically go for an early CoA drop, attack where it's politically safe and instant sac outlet if I'm attacked seriously back. After the first explosion, I go for Flicker or Capsize and drop as much land as I can. Then I either win with flicker combo or go into looping CoA.
In 1v1 games with people that have commanders that cost 6+ mana or take a long while to get going, I sometimes rely exclusively on Capsize as soon as I have 6+ mana on board. Usually after a CoA explosion that takes out ramp artifacts first.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
We need 1 green source in our first 9 cards, which is equivalent to 11 green sources in our 99-card deck. Mine has 16 counting all lands (12 if I don't count the 4 fetches) so I think I'm OK on this.
In addition to that, for any red or white color I have 4 fetches, a double dual, 2 basics, and Darksteel Ingot, which gives me 8 sources of splash colors, or 8/99 = .9696/12 ~ 1/12 = 1 source by turn 5 on the play. So with this config I am able to reach green with gold lands and without fetches by turn 3 and 1 splash color by turn 5 with fetches and without gold lands. So I need to ramp 1 splash color. In mid-to-late game I need as many UB sources as I can have so I can tweak my lifegain/double duals if/when I see I mana screw on this config, which I didn't realized yet.
This is the only drawback of having Costly Plunder, but we still have 3 (instead of 4) tutors to have it. IMO it's a good price for being uncounterable and response-proof. At least twice my opponent had Swords to Plowshares or Counterspell to screw my wipe, and these cards are useless with CP. Of course, one could counter it so I don't buy 2 cards
This is one of the very few Achille's Heels of this deck. This and GY hate are bad for us. But you can always exile Sun Titan or do the Spore Frog soft lock meanwhile so you can defend yourself using other cards in your example.
Multiplayer: Me too but obviously the combo is almost as primary as the wipe machine.
1v1: I realy almost exclusively on wiping once faster than the opponent establishes a position and then combo or capsize or beats.
Count me in
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I agree with that. The packages should be 'core packages'. Anything else is a flex number of flex slots
The Krosan Tusker/Reap and Sow is an example of this. The semantics are important here for us to determine what one thinks it's vital to be in core and each package.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I agree with this, though I wouldn't exactly call Krosan Tusker (or any other options in the primer) weak cards. Cards like this are run in full power EDH decks with less support than we have, after all. The idea with equal size packages was to simplify deck building for new players while also trying to find more consensus among the best card choices for build variants. But I might have gone overboard.
Though I'd like to hear from the other regulars as well, I'm thinking R&S + Aethermage should be in the core of the deck, bumping it up to 75 cards.
It helps if each build would run roughly the same number of lands, fix and acceleration, so I'd try to keep the land packages FAIRLY similar. There can certainly be flexibility in slots though, like an option between Mycosynth Wellspring, Expedition Map or Commander's Sphere for a green source for instance.
I think maybe we shouldn't look at a Combo vs. Control package, so much as a Brainspoil/Drake package of maybe 4-5 cards total. Picking this package will naturally limit your control card slots, making Angelic Purge a more likely pick for such a build, for instance. Are there other such synergistic packages that one might want to include - instead of or in addition to others? The only I can think of is the old Restorer combo.
That's not how the math works unfortunately, because cards aren't evenly distributed in your deck. You're looking at probabilities, and you can calculate them using a hypergeometric distribution calculator, such as this one:
https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx
If you input the numbers 99, 11, 9, 1, you will get the probability for getting 1 green source in your first 9 cards if you run 11 of them in a 99 card deck. The probability of 1 or more such sources is 67%. That means one games out of three, you won't have green on turn 3 with so few sources. With 20 sources, the number is 88% instead. In 60 card MtG deck building, the conventional wisdom is that you need 11-12 sources to consistently play a color on turn 1. The equivalent would be roughly 20 sources in EDH. And of course, you can't count green ramp/fix as a green source, since you need green to cast it (but you can certainly count it as a W or R source).
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
If we ignore conditional probability (and we shouldn't but then again, I'm lazy), one turn later, considering 5 ramp spells (R&S is too expensive) and Traumatic Visions the first splash color should be (98,19,10,1 = 89.7%). One turn later, for the 2nd splash color we should have (97,18,11,1 = 90.9%). All numbers are slightly greater when we are on play because the sample size increases by 1.
Sorry if I miscalculated anything. I know this approach is heavily biased because this way I'd ditch a Map when I could fetch a Bog or something but that's feasible to accomplish this - if I didn't screw too much on the math.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I did not mean that any of the cards are weak. Perhaps it would be better to simply remove the control package? From my pov, the only thing that makes it a package is the aethermage + pridemage part (and the former is seemingly moving to core), the rest are just good stuff, and not really better together.
One thing though, I think rend flesh is weaker than victim of night, because 2 mana is so much less than 3 - on the other hand, tribal vampire or zombie are more common than spirit and there are a few annoying vampires we might want to kill before blowing up the child (that said, seedborn muse can be important too)
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Indeed. Actually, there is a bit of a "package" when looking at Angelic Purge, because it has so many functions in one. It's not good at anything, so you can run better stuff, but it will take up more space. Since more space is a luxury that goes away with the Drake/Brainspoil package, it stands to reason that these builds will be running Purge. But you might be able to do either if you cut corners elsewhere, like in your flex slots. So it's really a separate "deal".
Victim is clearly the stronger card, however, I think the main reason to run another effect like this is the 3 CMC cost itself. The core already has Terminate (even better than Victim), and 2 other 2 CMC outlets, while there is only 1 at 3CMC (Mind Extraction). So Angelic Purge or Primal Growth has kinda deprecated the need for this slot, but you might end up not running either of those I guess and in that case rend flesh is almost a must. I think Victim is good enough in its own right though that I might include it in the primer, but it gets stiff competition from stuff like Wrecking Ball and Tragic Slip.
Me neither. Opal Palace is already our weakest gold land and this does even less and fixes no mana.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
By my count I am running 32 of the non-land cards from the core out of 40. I am running different card draw and no Dimir House Guard and friends mainly.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
These are some of the better lands in the deck. I wonder how many of these we can play before it starts becoming too sluggish.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
Only problem is to have it signed. Need to find this artist now.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
1 Sidisi's Faithful
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Devour Flesh
2 Perilous Research
2 Terminate
3 Mind Extraction
2 Altar’s Reap
7 Wretched Gryff
CoA Recursion (10)
1 Undying Evil
2 Grim Harvest
3 Soul Manipulation
4 Breath of Life
1 Reclaim
2 Macabre Waltz
2 Disturbed Burial
3 Cadaver Imp
3 Reaping the Graves
3 Shade’s Form
Tutors (9)
4 Mystical Teachings
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Dizzy Spell
2 Dimir Infiltrator
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Shred Memory
3 Drift of Phantasms
3 Perplex
4 Dimir House Guard
Card Draw (9)
1 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
2 Night's Whisper
3 Sea Gate Oracle
4 Deep Analysis
5 Mulldrifter
8 Treasure Cruise
1 ponder
3 Compulsive Research
3 Capsize
2 Counterspell
3 Faerie Trickery
1 Pyro Blast
2 Arcane Denial
Combo and Finisher (6)
2 Rolling Thunder
2 Cloud of Faeries
3 Ghostly Flicker
4 Archeomancer
5 Izzet Chronarch
3 Displace
Ramp (10)
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Darksteel Ingot
3 Cultivate
3 Kodama's Reach
1 Crop Rotation
1 Expedition Map
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
2 Evolution Charm
3 Primal Growth
7 Krosan Tusker
Utility (3)
1 Tragic slip
1 Spore Frog
3 Unmake
Lands (20)
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Opal Palace
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Bant Panorama
1 Ash Barrens
1 Halimar Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mortuary Mire
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Thornwood Falls
7 Island
5 Swamp
4 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Plains
SO here is my Deck now. I put the "CORE" Cards at the top of each section. And then the additions at the bottom. Except the lands which i tailored towards my build. I really just enjoy BLOWING up the board and then outlasting the other decks and swinging in and winning because they have nothing left. So that is what my build is built for. I prob have more recursion than most so i can just keep blowing up the board. My play groups decks are prob never over $100 total so not dealing with super powerful decks or anything.
Have a few questions. What combos am I looking at in the "combo finisher section".. Ive never really comboed out and don't necessarily want to but curious what my build has that im not seeing.
Also wanted a clarification on 2 cards.
Sidisi's Faithful I am allowed to sacrifice child of alara and blow up the board then target sidi's and put him back into my hand correct? That is the correct play with that card right?
also Wretched Gryff I sacrifice COA and only have to pay 1 blue mana because of Emerge right ? then COA blows up the board but Gryff stays on the battlefield right? Or does he die as well?
Is secrets of the golden city a must add?
thanks for the help with my deck.
I've played dozens of games with this deck and /never/ pulled off the combo. I've tried both combo versions. I've even played with the specific goal to combo off instead of the more usual route. Still never happened. YMMV, but with every new common they print I can feel myself wanting to remove the combo and just jam more utility.
Yes, that's how Sidisi's Faithful works. He ends up back in your hand with Child in the graveyard and the board all blown to smithereens.
Yes, that's how Wretched Gryff works. You sacrifice Child to pay the casting cost of the Gryff, so the "blow up everything" trigger is on the stack and resolves before the Gryff is even on the battlefield.
I'm not sold on Secrets of the Golden City. Lord knows I love to draw cards, but something deep down inside me avoids spells with two mana symbols of the same color if at all possible. (Apparently, I'm the only person running Psychic Strike?!) Hell, I lost a game just the night with this deck because I didn't have the second blue mana I needed when I needed it. Those losses stick with me. Plus, there's this new common in Guilds of Ravnica that looks cool.
Rain of Notions
1UB
Sorcery
Surveil 2, you draw 2 cards. Rain of Notions deals 2 damage to you.
I'd run this over Secrets of the Golden City. I haven't thought about what I would cut. Probably Cloud of Faeries. =P
Cloud of Faeries + (Ghostly Flicker/Displace) + (Archeomancer/Izzet Chronarch) + 2 bounce lands (like Izzet Boilerworks) incl. at least 1 blue.
With the creatures and lands in play, target a wizard and faeries with ghostly flicker, untapping the bounce lands and returning ghostly flicker (it is in your graveyard before you can put the etb effects on the stack so you can return it). This gives you 4 mana but cost 3. Thus, you got infinite mana.
The key reason why it is a good combo is that except for cloud of faeries, all the others could reasonably well be played anyway and cloud of faeries cycles, so in some sense, you use 0 slots for an infinite mana combo, with a slightly annoying cycle in the worst case. Furtheremore, the wizards are often good on their own, with a wizard, ghostly flicker is typically great and at this point you are very close to the combo, hence doing things you are likely to want to do anyway, you sometimes end up randomly comboing off.
Also thanks for the combo explanation Reaper.
Severed Strands is an upgraded Devour Flesh, what do you think?
EDIT: Well, it's not as flexible as DF. If you *need* to avoid some threat without having CoA in board, DF is better... What do you guys think?
EDIT 2: Forget it. It's a sorcery. Duh...
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G