EDIT: Is Night's Whisper really that much better compared to Sign in Blood though? Of course, if you're already running Sign in Blood, you may want to make room for Whisper too, or swap it, but I've never heard much praise for Sign in Blood. And double black isn't hard for this deck to get, not at all. So are people saying we should run both?
It may not be HARD to get BB, but how often do you have it turn 2? I find myself focussing on just getting WUBRG by any means neccesary before anything else anyway, at which point it becomes much easier to fire off an early-game Whisper as an early game Sign.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I don't think we've ever contemplated using draw spells on turn 2 in the pauper version of this deck, but I see what you mean. Actually, the potential non-land 2-drops are piling up and they all need blue, black or green mana turn 2. OTOH, this would inevitably mean using another tap land on turn 4 (rather than turn 2), which is no biggie if we want to wait to t5 to drop CoA with sac outlet/counter back-up ideally (assuming we pay 3 mana to ramp on turn 3). Hmm, this may require rethinking the mana base slightly. I'll look in to it, this sounds interesting
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Alright, Lou's comments made me return a bit to the mana base. Bottom line is I think we can make a faster deck with more ability to operate in the early turns before CoA drops t5-ish. I'm going to assume we normally want to use turns 3-4 to play acceleration, tutor for a sac outlet/recursion/acceleration, or play disruption such as a counter or spot removal in dire situations. In most cases, acceleration costs 3 and so does most tutoring and relevant disruption. This means we might have 0-2 extra mana on turn 4 in which we could play additional tap lands or minor fixing/dig/draw spells. This in turn frees up t2 for use of such spells as well.
Here are the cards that could realistically be played on turn 2: Crop Rotation (for a bounce land), Evolution Charm, Mycosynth Wellspring, Traumatic Visions (land cycling), Sakura-Tribe Elder, Merchant Scroll, Cloud of Faeries (cycle), Spore Frog (early defense), Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Impulse, Night's Whisper. That's 13 cards! Now, you may not run all of them, and you may think it too risky to expose Cloud or Frog to early grave hate, but there are still quite a few in here.
They compete with the 2 drop lands (panoramas, bounce lands and Rupture Spire/Transguild Promenade), so the more of those you run, the less sense it makes to run many small fix/dig/draw spells. This is where Peregrine Drake comes in. With cloud of faeries, we need at least 2 bounce lands in play to go off. This means playing at least 3 of them and semi-dubious cards like Crop Rotation to get them. With Peregrine Drake instead, you could run 1 bounce land (Dimir Aqueduct most likely) to reuse Bojuka Bog/Mortuary Mire, and could probably drop Crop Rotation as well. Instead you'd have room to fit more basics, making the deck slightly faster and less congested in the early turns.
Dropping CoF for Drake would entail running Brainspoil (over Crop Rotation most likely). I think this might be a good idea, but the downside of course is only having 2 outs to get combo, as you can't chain tutors to get Brainspoil (if only it was an instant!). This would mean a 65% chance of getting either Brainspoil or Peregrine Drake within the first 40 cards you see (and you go through them quite fast with the dig/CA in this deck). So perhaps by turn 20-ish, you'd have a 65% chance of achieving combo. That doesn't feel good enough to me, but I can't honestly say I'm getting better combo-out rates than that with Cloud of Faeries either. What are your thoughts?
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Honestly, I'd stick to both CoF AND Peregrine Drake. In return, it's probably affordable to run less bouncelands. Which in turn would free up space for more lands that do not ETBT, thus leading to a slightly more stable early game.
On the subject of Brainspoil, there are 3 other cards in my current version it can tutor up:
Izzet Chronomancer/Scrivener (Not bad if I need spell recursion and also a combo piece) and Mulldrifter (A quick draw 2...)
Yeah, not the best options, so I'm inclined to keep CoF the main combo piece, with Peregrine as a nice extra option to have, just in case. Gives a bit more combo-flexibility.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
That's just the thing though - if you cut down on bouncelands, CoF won't work at all. You can absolutely "just add Drake" and get a strong combo presence in the deck from it, but without at least 2 bounce (and that's really risking it, 3 is more stable) you can't use CoF. Of course, I'm not saying running 3 bouncelands is bad, just that it may not be an easier combo than relying on Drake.
If one were to run Brainspoil, I can really recommend Traumatic Visions. I run it already so that Merchant Scroll can get me a green source (something that's come up at least 2 games), plus having a counter in my land base, even if it is a bad one, beats having yet another land. This way, Brainspoil can grab early land too, which is useful. I'd also run Urborg Uprising in one of the recursion flex slots (where ppl run anything from Reaping the Graves to Pulse of Murasa etc) to have a solid recursion spell to tutor for. Brainspoil itself is a sac outlet for CoA (albeit a bad one), so we're good there already.
Another good thing with Brainspoil is that it gets two pieces of the combo - Izzet Chronarch, which conveniently returns Brainspoil so that it can again find Peregrine Drake. Ghostly Flicker, as a blue 3 CMC instant, is trivial to find off of any tutor chain. The trick is getting Brainspoil to begin with. Anyway, having only 2 outs to the combo makes me dubious of its use as an alternative. It is probably best as an addition, but then one might ask if it's needed at all. A better way to tutor for it might appear in future sets though.
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To be fair, when I say "cut some bouncelands", I do mean I'm running the full monty (I hate asymetry) and thus cutting down from 10 may be a bit easier
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If you take the big picture view of this deck, the fewest number of spells you can reasonably run that include more than one color of the same symbol in their mana cost, the better. In my experience, we are asking a lot of a 5c deck to come up with UU for most of the counterspells, plus produce other double colors like BB.
It's also "easier" (less stress on the mana base) to cast a hard counter like Psychic Strike, where I only need to come up with a single U and a single B along with one other mana, rather than Cancel, for example.
Any spell where there are two mana of the same color required at the same time should be critical to executing the deck's plan; otherwise, there's a good chance it is going to be stranded in your hand when you need it. So, Night's Whisper over Sign in Blood.
I'd be willing to go so far as to say that I can only reasonably justify blue double mana symbols in this deck. A card like Evasive Action will get the job done most of the time, so even the double UU symbols are on my hit list. Your mileage may vary.
Here are a couple of other points to consider based on my testing.
In the grand scheme of things, I'd rather have Child of Alara end up in play from the graveyard rather than back in my hand. That's the goal. The tempo boost from putting Child directly into play after a board wipe is amazing. So, I run Breath of Life, False Defeat, and Stir the Grave. In general, putting Child back into play beats using a card like Pulse of Murasa because I can swing with Child the very next turn.
I also run False Demise and Unhallowed Pact for similar reasons. They do not have double mana symbols and when they work, Child ends up directly back in play. Landing one of these on Child is often enough to close out the game.
Again, based on my experience, most of the game takes place after the first Child of Alara board wipe on turn 4, 5, or 6, assuming your opponent doesn't immediately concede. You should have a huge amount of card advantage at this point, but we still have to figure out a way to win. The tutors are key, of course. They allow us to get the engine cards. And we run them all (or most of them). The low casting cost, efficient draw and dig spells are the next best thing.
I have gone very far down the rabbit hole when it comes to this deck's mana base over the years, and if you build it optimally, it can support UU and BB without problems. If you're not building the mana base asymmetrically though, you're selling yourself short. This is basically a U/B deck that runs enough green to support sorcery->land based acceleration, which in turn is a guarantee for fixing the last two colors (white and red).
The mana base is layered like crazy to get enough sources for the right color at the right moment. For example, you typically never need green until turn 3, which makes panoramas and bouncelands good green sources. If you want to consistently be able to play Ponder on turn 2 though, you're gonna need to run every U-producing guildgate and life dual available. I tried this and found it led to too few green sources total, so I can't recommend this (unless you go crazy on forests). You can't just stock up on Islands either - too many dedicated blue sources will lead to blue flooding and not getting WUBRG a.s.a.p. The mana base is a very narrow tightrope if you want to use it to its fullest potential.
I strive to have B-U-G by turn 3 with great consistency (ideally with some W/R flexibility built in with golds/duals), and I can often manage UU or BB by turn 4 (post ramp). Some things are still regrettably hard, like dropping CoA on turn 5 with red mana to spare for a REB/Pyro. Using a double mana transmute tutor to find a same color tutor target (Dizzy Spell -> Sidisi's Faithful for instance) is still hard to pull of in the same turn before turn 8-ish. Those are my main gripes with the present mana base. While it's true that non-doubles are more easily castable, we don't need to pick worse cards just to avoid double blue or black, unless we absolutely must cast these cards before turn 4.
So, I run Breath of Life, False Defeat, and Stir the Grave. In general, putting Child back into play beats using a card like Pulse of Murasa because I can swing with Child the very next turn.
I also run False Demise and Unhallowed Pact for similar reasons. They do not have double mana symbols and when they work, Child ends up directly back in play. Landing one of these on Child is often enough to close out the game.
My experience in 1v1 is that all these auras are king! In multi though, not so much. Relying on them too much risks getting you 2-for-1 from exiling effects. Also, Stir the Grave is not really improving your mana effectiveness. I can also recommend Undying Evil as it's the cheapest tempo deal you can get. I find it ideal to use Breath of Life/Undying Evil/recursion aura on your first CoA blow where mana is scarce, but beyond that I'd much rather work to assemble an engine for the long game. Again, in 1v1, this is often irrelevant.
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I have gone very far down the rabbit hole when it comes to this deck's mana base over the years, and if you build it optimally, it can support UU and BB without problems.
These are all great points, urdjur. It is probable that I've messed up the mana base in my build and/or I am not playing out the sequence of spells optimally. I have spent the least amount of time on the lands.
To put what I was saying another way: my general rule for deckbuilding is to question the use of double mana in a single color. One color, like blue, is fine. Two colors, like blue and black both requiring double mana symbols, is iffy.
This comes from my old days of playing "The Deck" and being worried about getting UU for Mana Drain while still being able to cast everything else, like Moat. This was a much smaller deck with full access to the original dual lands, so I get extra worried in a 5-color 100-card deck built using only commons.
My experience in 1v1 is that all these auras are king! In multi though, not so much.
Another great point. I have, admittedly, spent the most time playing this deck 1-vs-1 on MTGO. While there are multiplayer EDH games available on MTGO, I rarely have a 2 hour block to dedicate to them. So, my testing and experience is limited. I did build the deck in paper, but my group is only 2 other players and they have a few decks between them. The games are very casual.
To put what I was saying another way: my general rule for deckbuilding is to question the use of double mana in a single color. One color, like blue, is fine. Two colors, like blue and black both requiring double mana symbols, is iffy.
This comes from my old days of playing "The Deck" and being worried about getting UU for Mana Drain while still being able to cast everything else, like Moat. This was a much smaller deck with full access to the original dual lands, so I get extra worried in a 5-color 100-card deck built using only commons.
Yes, this is a very valid point. The thing is here that we want to go out of our way not to play Mountain or Plains early on, if it can be avoided. Hence we use gold sources and duals so that green acceleration can fetch more islands/swamps instead. This means that you'll often have either UU or BB within your WUBRG (by turn 4), however you will sometimes have to make the choice between UU or BB, which is fine as long as you don't run too many of them (you want to avoid one of each in your starting hand). You should run very few dedicated G/W/R sources, which means you will inevitably make UU/BB just by dropping lands.
It's very different from 60 card eternal formats. Getting UU on turn 2 is NOT doable at all for this deck, indeed even consistently having U on turn 2 is a challenge that unduly warps the mana base and WUBRG goals. The surest thing is the t3 green source. You then rely on green acceleration to fix the missing piece of the puzzle, but different pieces will be missing each game due to randomness. If you don't have acceleration and/or a green source, chances are you have a tutor and U/B mana instead to grab Darksteel Ingot or non-green mana fixing. Typically you still make CoA turn 5 with one mana open.
If you want to examine your mana base, my best recipe is the following:
Lands + land fetch + ramp = 50 cards
Ramp = 7 is optimal, I recommend Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Far Wanderings, Darksteel Ingot, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Reap and Sow and Primal Growth. Other players prefer Wayfarer's Bauble and/or Commander's Sphere.
Lands = 38-42 cards, depending on amount of land fetch (1-5, almost all run Expedition Map - stuff like Evolution Charm and Mycosynth Wellspring is up to taste).
*15-17 basics: The trick here is not to run more than 7 dedicated sources of one color. So if you run Halimar Depths, you can run 6 Island tops. This means you should only add the really good black and blue spell lands, because they effectively require you to run more forests. Running more than 4 forests is bad IMO (2 is minimum). Mountain and Plains should be singletons.
*Max 8 t2 lands: This means rupture spire/transguild promenade, panoramas and bouncelands. 8 is really pushing it. The more land fetch you run, the less of these you should run, as they compete for t2 space. My current problem with my CoF version is that I'm fat in this area, and I'm looking for an appealing solution.
*The rest: Duals to smooth out the color pie helps a lot. Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wilds is of course mandatory. Opal Palace and Command Tower too. Chose spell lands with great care considering basics above. Tranquil Thicket is probably the only cycler worth running.
Hope that helps!
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Alright, so I've made a tweaked list and experimented heavily with Cloud of Faeries combo to decide what to do with Peregrine Drake. The TL;DR version: Peregrine Drake with or without Brainspoil is not useful. It's not "wrong" to run them, but they will not help you get combo a lot more often. For those interested in my new, slightly updated list (Night's Whisper inside!), I'll release it this weekend at the latest. Hopefully together with an updated primer - if not, I'll at least put up the list in case anyone cares (it's like less than 5 cards difference from what I've run this last year).
My testing was thus: Goldfish and see how quickly I can combo out and either kill/bounce the table to oblivion, ignoring all other aspects of the deck such as playing CoA and wiping the board. How often would this work by turn 20? Answer: 18 out of 20 times, far exceeding expectations on the "no CoF, drake + brainspoil" version (which is easier to calculate since it has fewer component parts). Earliest combo out was turn 9. Getting combo by turn 15 appeared rather easy, but if you want it much sooner, you will have to sacrifice a lot of the main CoA plan, and even then it is not a sure thing.
To make a long story short, Mystical Teachings is the key. With time and mana, that card alone assembles the entire combo!
Step 1) MT -> Vedalken Aethermage -> Archaeomancer/Izzet Chronarch recurring MT.
Step 2) Either MT -> Capsize and bounce the recursion wizard with buyback to get as many mystical teachings as you want; OR MT -> creature recursion and get back aethermage, search out the other wizard which again recurs MT, which then finds Ghostly Flicker and with two wizards you now have as many teachings as you need as well.
Step 3) Find and recur Crop Rotation (an instant!) to get at least 2 bouncelands, if you don't have them already. Also get Ghostly Flicker and Cloud of Faeries (chain into 2 CMC transmutes) if you haven't already.
Step 4) Combo out. With infinite mana, search out whatever with teachings and finish off with Capsize/Rolling Thunder.
Dimir House Guard and Merchant Scroll both find MT, and merchant scroll is in turn found by fully 3 2cmc-transmutes. This gives us 6 outs to combo out in this manner. The entire "MT dance" takes about 2-5 turns to execute, depending on what you have already and how developed the mana is. It is of course also possible to assemble the combo "manually" - an expedition map here, a drift of phantasms there. I only managed to pull this off twice in 20 games in 20 turns, and I probably failed once entirely just for trying. It is probably better to spend 3 CMC transmute tutors to find dig/draw spells that eventually land you one of the "great 6", rather than trying to assemble combo pieces individually.
Of course, this is purely theoretical because in a normal game you'd most likely have entirely different concerns. This was just to assess if CoF combo is better than Drake combo (yes) and if it is, if Drake improves the combo enough to merit a slot - and it doesn't. Since comboing out pretty much equals comboing out with Mystical Teachings or not at all, including combo pieces that cannot be found via a MT tutor chain is almost completely irrelevant.
That is all!
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MANA BASE (50)
38 lands including 1 source of recursion and 1 source of graveyard removal Color breakdown: 19 blue sources, 19 black sources, 17 green sources, 11 red sources, 11 white sources
5 land fetch including 1 source of recursion and 1 counter
7 ramp including 1 sac outlet and 1 land removal
Other sac outlets (9)
Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Terminate, Perilous Research, Mind Extraction, Angelic Purge, Sidisi's Faithful, Devour Flesh, Tragic Slip
Other CoA recursion (8)
Cadaver Imp, Shade's Form, Breath of Life, Treasure cruise, Grim Harvest, Soul Manipulation, Undying Evil, Pulse of Murasa
Other tutors (10)
Dizzy Spell, Dimir Infiltrator, Muddle the Mixture, Shred Memory, Drift of Phantasms, Perplex, Dimir House Guard, Vedalken Aethermage, Mystical Teachings, Merchant Scroll
Additional silver bullets, counters and flicker/combo (11)
Capsize, Unmake, Spore Frog, Counterspell, Overrule, Faerie Trickery, Ghostly Flicker, Archaeomancer, Izzet Chronarch, Cloud of Faeries, Rolling Thunder
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If you're playing strictly 1v1, a few cards I'd consider changing: Tragic Slip: Can be difficult to trigger morbid when you need it, and you need fewer outs to indestructibles anyway 1v1. Consider something like Murder or Altar's Reap instead. Pulse or Murasa: Life gain is mostly useful in multiplayer.Overrule/Devour Flesh is probably quite sufficient 1v1. Instead consider another recursion aura, Disturbed Burial or Reaping the Graves.
I think the Ghostly Flicker engine is powerful enough to include even in 1v1, though you may use it differently than in multi. Just getting something like "endless Terminate" could easily lock your opponent out of the game. And if you run it, then you need only spend one slot on a cycler (CoF) to have full combo potential, so I say why not? Even if it's 1v1
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Hi all, and thanks urdjur for the work.
Hope these discussions about some differences help our deck grow, even marginally.
About creatures: Farhaven Elf is really meh and Qasali Pridemage is a card I think I’d miss (tutorable with Vedalken, gives exalted) but I used it *twice* as far as I remember in all games I played with this deck. Finally, Izzet Chronarch looks better than Mnemonic Wall because it beats and it’s Vedalken-tutorable (if I’m wrong, the wall comes back). So those 13 creatures of yours are nice. (But seriously, being less than 13 is dangerous but I don’t like Cadaver Imp quite often. It stays for now but...)
Artifacts: I like Commander's Sphere better (CA anytime, mainly after first Child's blow) for my taste. Also Darksteel Pendant is a jewel (pun intended) in mid- and late game.
Sorceries/Enchantment: not a big fan of Compulsive Research. Also, IMHO, Disturbed Burial is better than Shade's Form. Finally, I love Search for Tomorrow and ramp, so I go with it. The rest is identical. (I ditched Reality Acid, a pet card of mine which I love to play with Capsize but I found out it’s not worth the slot, so hey, no enchantments here, which can make come cards useless in the process, heh).
Instants: Impulse look meh, I prefer Forbidden Alchemy. I also don’t use Overrule (tried to minimize counterspells in the process). Honestly I’m on the fence about Pyro & REB together but it makes sense, mainly against a blue meta (my case sometimes). Also: is Unmake better than Oblivion Strike? That’s a tough one. Testing Unmake for now.
Lands: I also cut from 39 to 38 (looks nice given all the ramp) but I use 17 basics, all 5 panoramas, only 3 pauper duals (UBG), and Izzet Boilerworks instead of Golgari Rot Farm so I can Capsize or Rolling Thunder right away. Also I use Piranha Marsh as a possible wincon with the CoF combo (can replace with a swamp anytime). This way I have only 14 lands which ETBT compared with your 19 (ok, 9 of the other ones tap for C at first but can help to cast something like, say, a Darksteel Pendant on T2 more easily). Of course, I suffer a bit more to fix colors. Let’s test
Does anyone have a version of this deck that doesn't use an infinite combo as a win condition? My play group doesn't approve of infinite combos, and I'm not really a fan of them either.
Wreteched Gryff eating CoA will go away in the blast no? Even so, paying U to kill CoA at sorcery speed and draw a card is still quite good. It's a bit like a mulldrifter + perilous research rolled into one, but not quite as good as either.
Grapple With the Past seems as solid a recursion spell as any. Not sure it's better than Pulse of Murasa (in multiplayer) or Evolution Charm (in general) though.
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This link (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/eldritch-moon-mechanics-2016-06-27) says, about Emerge:
"As an additional cost to cast Wretched Gryff, you sacrifice [a creature]".
So no, the Gryff doesn't get blown. Is that a card to consider given the number of silver bullets? Dunno.
About Grapple With the Past, agreed. Both PoM and EV are better (I prefer to spend one more mana and gain 6 life in the process).
So Wretched Gryff is basically: Blow up CoA, draw a card and get a 3/4 flyer after the world goes boom, all for 1 mana? It's a shame it doesn't have flash, but even so, that is pretty good value.
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If the combo is your main wincon? Hell yeah.
As far as Emerge goes, Wretched Gryff and It of the Horrid Swarm are the only options there. I don't think I will run It, but the Gryff will be ran.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If one heavily uses Ghostly Flicker engine, (re)consider Rewind in the main deck. Almost mandatory part of the suite if used heavily.
Gryff will be in my deck.
Looking forward to the next expansion lol
Now that Treasure Cruise became banned, Wretched Gryff found its spot. Less cmc both originally and about the actual casting cost Night's Whisper ended being an awesome addition to draw cards in the deck this way.
Thinking about a (new) delve card to the maybeboard: is Tasigur's Cruelty too kamikaze to use it on multiplayer?
It may not be HARD to get BB, but how often do you have it turn 2? I find myself focussing on just getting WUBRG by any means neccesary before anything else anyway, at which point it becomes much easier to fire off an early-game Whisper as an early game Sign.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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Here are the cards that could realistically be played on turn 2: Crop Rotation (for a bounce land), Evolution Charm, Mycosynth Wellspring, Traumatic Visions (land cycling), Sakura-Tribe Elder, Merchant Scroll, Cloud of Faeries (cycle), Spore Frog (early defense), Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Impulse, Night's Whisper. That's 13 cards! Now, you may not run all of them, and you may think it too risky to expose Cloud or Frog to early grave hate, but there are still quite a few in here.
They compete with the 2 drop lands (panoramas, bounce lands and Rupture Spire/Transguild Promenade), so the more of those you run, the less sense it makes to run many small fix/dig/draw spells. This is where Peregrine Drake comes in. With cloud of faeries, we need at least 2 bounce lands in play to go off. This means playing at least 3 of them and semi-dubious cards like Crop Rotation to get them. With Peregrine Drake instead, you could run 1 bounce land (Dimir Aqueduct most likely) to reuse Bojuka Bog/Mortuary Mire, and could probably drop Crop Rotation as well. Instead you'd have room to fit more basics, making the deck slightly faster and less congested in the early turns.
Dropping CoF for Drake would entail running Brainspoil (over Crop Rotation most likely). I think this might be a good idea, but the downside of course is only having 2 outs to get combo, as you can't chain tutors to get Brainspoil (if only it was an instant!). This would mean a 65% chance of getting either Brainspoil or Peregrine Drake within the first 40 cards you see (and you go through them quite fast with the dig/CA in this deck). So perhaps by turn 20-ish, you'd have a 65% chance of achieving combo. That doesn't feel good enough to me, but I can't honestly say I'm getting better combo-out rates than that with Cloud of Faeries either. What are your thoughts?
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On the subject of Brainspoil, there are 3 other cards in my current version it can tutor up:
Izzet Chronomancer/Scrivener (Not bad if I need spell recursion and also a combo piece) and Mulldrifter (A quick draw 2...)
Yeah, not the best options, so I'm inclined to keep CoF the main combo piece, with Peregrine as a nice extra option to have, just in case. Gives a bit more combo-flexibility.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If one were to run Brainspoil, I can really recommend Traumatic Visions. I run it already so that Merchant Scroll can get me a green source (something that's come up at least 2 games), plus having a counter in my land base, even if it is a bad one, beats having yet another land. This way, Brainspoil can grab early land too, which is useful. I'd also run Urborg Uprising in one of the recursion flex slots (where ppl run anything from Reaping the Graves to Pulse of Murasa etc) to have a solid recursion spell to tutor for. Brainspoil itself is a sac outlet for CoA (albeit a bad one), so we're good there already.
Another good thing with Brainspoil is that it gets two pieces of the combo - Izzet Chronarch, which conveniently returns Brainspoil so that it can again find Peregrine Drake. Ghostly Flicker, as a blue 3 CMC instant, is trivial to find off of any tutor chain. The trick is getting Brainspoil to begin with. Anyway, having only 2 outs to the combo makes me dubious of its use as an alternative. It is probably best as an addition, but then one might ask if it's needed at all. A better way to tutor for it might appear in future sets though.
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Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It's also "easier" (less stress on the mana base) to cast a hard counter like Psychic Strike, where I only need to come up with a single U and a single B along with one other mana, rather than Cancel, for example.
Any spell where there are two mana of the same color required at the same time should be critical to executing the deck's plan; otherwise, there's a good chance it is going to be stranded in your hand when you need it. So, Night's Whisper over Sign in Blood.
I'd be willing to go so far as to say that I can only reasonably justify blue double mana symbols in this deck. A card like Evasive Action will get the job done most of the time, so even the double UU symbols are on my hit list. Your mileage may vary.
Here are a couple of other points to consider based on my testing.
In the grand scheme of things, I'd rather have Child of Alara end up in play from the graveyard rather than back in my hand. That's the goal. The tempo boost from putting Child directly into play after a board wipe is amazing. So, I run Breath of Life, False Defeat, and Stir the Grave. In general, putting Child back into play beats using a card like Pulse of Murasa because I can swing with Child the very next turn.
I also run False Demise and Unhallowed Pact for similar reasons. They do not have double mana symbols and when they work, Child ends up directly back in play. Landing one of these on Child is often enough to close out the game.
Again, based on my experience, most of the game takes place after the first Child of Alara board wipe on turn 4, 5, or 6, assuming your opponent doesn't immediately concede. You should have a huge amount of card advantage at this point, but we still have to figure out a way to win. The tutors are key, of course. They allow us to get the engine cards. And we run them all (or most of them). The low casting cost, efficient draw and dig spells are the next best thing.
Also, King Macar, the Gold-Cursed is a problem.
The mana base is layered like crazy to get enough sources for the right color at the right moment. For example, you typically never need green until turn 3, which makes panoramas and bouncelands good green sources. If you want to consistently be able to play Ponder on turn 2 though, you're gonna need to run every U-producing guildgate and life dual available. I tried this and found it led to too few green sources total, so I can't recommend this (unless you go crazy on forests). You can't just stock up on Islands either - too many dedicated blue sources will lead to blue flooding and not getting WUBRG a.s.a.p. The mana base is a very narrow tightrope if you want to use it to its fullest potential.
I strive to have B-U-G by turn 3 with great consistency (ideally with some W/R flexibility built in with golds/duals), and I can often manage UU or BB by turn 4 (post ramp). Some things are still regrettably hard, like dropping CoA on turn 5 with red mana to spare for a REB/Pyro. Using a double mana transmute tutor to find a same color tutor target (Dizzy Spell -> Sidisi's Faithful for instance) is still hard to pull of in the same turn before turn 8-ish. Those are my main gripes with the present mana base. While it's true that non-doubles are more easily castable, we don't need to pick worse cards just to avoid double blue or black, unless we absolutely must cast these cards before turn 4.
My experience in 1v1 is that all these auras are king! In multi though, not so much. Relying on them too much risks getting you 2-for-1 from exiling effects. Also, Stir the Grave is not really improving your mana effectiveness. I can also recommend Undying Evil as it's the cheapest tempo deal you can get. I find it ideal to use Breath of Life/Undying Evil/recursion aura on your first CoA blow where mana is scarce, but beyond that I'd much rather work to assemble an engine for the long game. Again, in 1v1, this is often irrelevant.
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These are all great points, urdjur. It is probable that I've messed up the mana base in my build and/or I am not playing out the sequence of spells optimally. I have spent the least amount of time on the lands.
To put what I was saying another way: my general rule for deckbuilding is to question the use of double mana in a single color. One color, like blue, is fine. Two colors, like blue and black both requiring double mana symbols, is iffy.
This comes from my old days of playing "The Deck" and being worried about getting UU for Mana Drain while still being able to cast everything else, like Moat. This was a much smaller deck with full access to the original dual lands, so I get extra worried in a 5-color 100-card deck built using only commons.
Another great point. I have, admittedly, spent the most time playing this deck 1-vs-1 on MTGO. While there are multiplayer EDH games available on MTGO, I rarely have a 2 hour block to dedicate to them. So, my testing and experience is limited. I did build the deck in paper, but my group is only 2 other players and they have a few decks between them. The games are very casual.
Yes, this is a very valid point. The thing is here that we want to go out of our way not to play Mountain or Plains early on, if it can be avoided. Hence we use gold sources and duals so that green acceleration can fetch more islands/swamps instead. This means that you'll often have either UU or BB within your WUBRG (by turn 4), however you will sometimes have to make the choice between UU or BB, which is fine as long as you don't run too many of them (you want to avoid one of each in your starting hand). You should run very few dedicated G/W/R sources, which means you will inevitably make UU/BB just by dropping lands.
It's very different from 60 card eternal formats. Getting UU on turn 2 is NOT doable at all for this deck, indeed even consistently having U on turn 2 is a challenge that unduly warps the mana base and WUBRG goals. The surest thing is the t3 green source. You then rely on green acceleration to fix the missing piece of the puzzle, but different pieces will be missing each game due to randomness. If you don't have acceleration and/or a green source, chances are you have a tutor and U/B mana instead to grab Darksteel Ingot or non-green mana fixing. Typically you still make CoA turn 5 with one mana open.
If you want to examine your mana base, my best recipe is the following:
Lands + land fetch + ramp = 50 cards
Ramp = 7 is optimal, I recommend Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Far Wanderings, Darksteel Ingot, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Reap and Sow and Primal Growth. Other players prefer Wayfarer's Bauble and/or Commander's Sphere.
Lands = 38-42 cards, depending on amount of land fetch (1-5, almost all run Expedition Map - stuff like Evolution Charm and Mycosynth Wellspring is up to taste).
*15-17 basics: The trick here is not to run more than 7 dedicated sources of one color. So if you run Halimar Depths, you can run 6 Island tops. This means you should only add the really good black and blue spell lands, because they effectively require you to run more forests. Running more than 4 forests is bad IMO (2 is minimum). Mountain and Plains should be singletons.
*Max 8 t2 lands: This means rupture spire/transguild promenade, panoramas and bouncelands. 8 is really pushing it. The more land fetch you run, the less of these you should run, as they compete for t2 space. My current problem with my CoF version is that I'm fat in this area, and I'm looking for an appealing solution.
*The rest: Duals to smooth out the color pie helps a lot. Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wilds is of course mandatory. Opal Palace and Command Tower too. Chose spell lands with great care considering basics above. Tranquil Thicket is probably the only cycler worth running.
Hope that helps!
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My testing was thus: Goldfish and see how quickly I can combo out and either kill/bounce the table to oblivion, ignoring all other aspects of the deck such as playing CoA and wiping the board. How often would this work by turn 20? Answer: 18 out of 20 times, far exceeding expectations on the "no CoF, drake + brainspoil" version (which is easier to calculate since it has fewer component parts). Earliest combo out was turn 9. Getting combo by turn 15 appeared rather easy, but if you want it much sooner, you will have to sacrifice a lot of the main CoA plan, and even then it is not a sure thing.
To make a long story short, Mystical Teachings is the key. With time and mana, that card alone assembles the entire combo!
Step 1) MT -> Vedalken Aethermage -> Archaeomancer/Izzet Chronarch recurring MT.
Step 2) Either MT -> Capsize and bounce the recursion wizard with buyback to get as many mystical teachings as you want; OR MT -> creature recursion and get back aethermage, search out the other wizard which again recurs MT, which then finds Ghostly Flicker and with two wizards you now have as many teachings as you need as well.
Step 3) Find and recur Crop Rotation (an instant!) to get at least 2 bouncelands, if you don't have them already. Also get Ghostly Flicker and Cloud of Faeries (chain into 2 CMC transmutes) if you haven't already.
Step 4) Combo out. With infinite mana, search out whatever with teachings and finish off with Capsize/Rolling Thunder.
Dimir House Guard and Merchant Scroll both find MT, and merchant scroll is in turn found by fully 3 2cmc-transmutes. This gives us 6 outs to combo out in this manner. The entire "MT dance" takes about 2-5 turns to execute, depending on what you have already and how developed the mana is. It is of course also possible to assemble the combo "manually" - an expedition map here, a drift of phantasms there. I only managed to pull this off twice in 20 games in 20 turns, and I probably failed once entirely just for trying. It is probably better to spend 3 CMC transmute tutors to find dig/draw spells that eventually land you one of the "great 6", rather than trying to assemble combo pieces individually.
Of course, this is purely theoretical because in a normal game you'd most likely have entirely different concerns. This was just to assess if CoF combo is better than Drake combo (yes) and if it is, if Drake improves the combo enough to merit a slot - and it doesn't. Since comboing out pretty much equals comboing out with Mystical Teachings or not at all, including combo pieces that cannot be found via a MT tutor chain is almost completely irrelevant.
That is all!
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5 Child of Alara
CREATURES (13)
4 Archaeomancer
3 Cadaver Imp
2 Cloud of Faeries
4 Dimir House Guard
2 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Drift of Phantasms
5 Izzet Chronarch
5 Mulldrifter
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
3 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Sidisi's Faithful
1 Spore Frog
2 Vedalken Aethermage
ARTIFACTS (3)
3 Darksteel Ingot
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Expedition Map
ENCHANTMENTS (1)
3 Shade's Form
SORCERIES (18)
3 Angelic Purge
4 Breath of Life
3 Compulsive Research
3 Cultivate
4 Deep Analysis
3 Far Wanderings
4 Foresee
3 Kodama's Reach
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Mind Extraction
2 Night's Whisper
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Primal Growth
3 Read the Bones
4 Reap and Sow
2 Rolling Thunder
8 Treasure Cruise
1 Brainstorm
3 Capsize
2 Counterspell
1 Crop Rotation
2 Devour Flesh
1 Dizzy Spell
2 Evolution Charm
3 Faerie Trickery
3 Ghostly Flicker
2 Grim Harvest
2 Impulse
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Mystical Teachings
2 Overrule
2 Perilous Research
3 Perplex
3 Pulse of Murasa
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shred Memory
3 Soul Manipulation
2 Terminate
1 Tragic Slip
5 Traumatic Visions
1 Undying Evil
3 Unmake
LANDS (38)
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Opal Palace
1 Jund Panorama
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Blossoming Sands
1 Bloodfell Caves
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Rugged Highlands
1 Scoured Barrens
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Tranquil Cove
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Halimar Depths
1 Mortuary Mire
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forest
6 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
5 Swamp
Functional breakdown:
MANA BASE (50)
38 lands including 1 source of recursion and 1 source of graveyard removal
Color breakdown: 19 blue sources, 19 black sources, 17 green sources, 11 red sources, 11 white sources
5 land fetch including 1 source of recursion and 1 counter
7 ramp including 1 sac outlet and 1 land removal
Other sac outlets (9)
Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Terminate, Perilous Research, Mind Extraction, Angelic Purge, Sidisi's Faithful, Devour Flesh, Tragic Slip
Other CoA recursion (8)
Cadaver Imp, Shade's Form, Breath of Life, Treasure cruise, Grim Harvest, Soul Manipulation, Undying Evil, Pulse of Murasa
Other tutors (10)
Dizzy Spell, Dimir Infiltrator, Muddle the Mixture, Shred Memory, Drift of Phantasms, Perplex, Dimir House Guard, Vedalken Aethermage, Mystical Teachings, Merchant Scroll
Additional silver bullets, counters and flicker/combo (11)
Capsize, Unmake, Spore Frog, Counterspell, Overrule, Faerie Trickery, Ghostly Flicker, Archaeomancer, Izzet Chronarch, Cloud of Faeries, Rolling Thunder
Dig/CA spells (11)
Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Night's Whisper, Impulse, Read the Bones, Compulsive Research, Sea Gate Oracle, Foresee, Deep Analysis, Mulldrifter
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Just posting to say that the list looks great. Clean. I am going to load it up in MTGO and give it a try. Thank you for posting the revisions!
If you're playing strictly 1v1, a few cards I'd consider changing:
Tragic Slip: Can be difficult to trigger morbid when you need it, and you need fewer outs to indestructibles anyway 1v1. Consider something like Murder or Altar's Reap instead.
Pulse or Murasa: Life gain is mostly useful in multiplayer.Overrule/Devour Flesh is probably quite sufficient 1v1. Instead consider another recursion aura, Disturbed Burial or Reaping the Graves.
I think the Ghostly Flicker engine is powerful enough to include even in 1v1, though you may use it differently than in multi. Just getting something like "endless Terminate" could easily lock your opponent out of the game. And if you run it, then you need only spend one slot on a cycler (CoF) to have full combo potential, so I say why not? Even if it's 1v1
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Hope these discussions about some differences help our deck grow, even marginally.
About creatures: Farhaven Elf is really meh and Qasali Pridemage is a card I think I’d miss (tutorable with Vedalken, gives exalted) but I used it *twice* as far as I remember in all games I played with this deck. Finally, Izzet Chronarch looks better than Mnemonic Wall because it beats and it’s Vedalken-tutorable (if I’m wrong, the wall comes back). So those 13 creatures of yours are nice. (But seriously, being less than 13 is dangerous but I don’t like Cadaver Imp quite often. It stays for now but...)
Artifacts: I like Commander's Sphere better (CA anytime, mainly after first Child's blow) for my taste. Also Darksteel Pendant is a jewel (pun intended) in mid- and late game.
Sorceries/Enchantment: not a big fan of Compulsive Research. Also, IMHO, Disturbed Burial is better than Shade's Form. Finally, I love Search for Tomorrow and ramp, so I go with it. The rest is identical. (I ditched Reality Acid, a pet card of mine which I love to play with Capsize but I found out it’s not worth the slot, so hey, no enchantments here, which can make come cards useless in the process, heh).
Instants: Impulse look meh, I prefer Forbidden Alchemy. I also don’t use Overrule (tried to minimize counterspells in the process). Honestly I’m on the fence about Pyro & REB together but it makes sense, mainly against a blue meta (my case sometimes). Also: is Unmake better than Oblivion Strike? That’s a tough one. Testing Unmake for now.
Lands: I also cut from 39 to 38 (looks nice given all the ramp) but I use 17 basics, all 5 panoramas, only 3 pauper duals (UBG), and Izzet Boilerworks instead of Golgari Rot Farm so I can Capsize or Rolling Thunder right away. Also I use Piranha Marsh as a possible wincon with the CoF combo (can replace with a swamp anytime). This way I have only 14 lands which ETBT compared with your 19 (ok, 9 of the other ones tap for C at first but can help to cast something like, say, a Darksteel Pendant on T2 more easily). Of course, I suffer a bit more to fix colors. Let’s test
(edit 6/27) Wretched Gryff anyone?
Best,
Alexandre
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
The (other) wincons remain the same of 2011 as d0su said: Mulldrifter beats, general damage or Rolling Thunder recursion.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Grapple With the Past seems as solid a recursion spell as any. Not sure it's better than Pulse of Murasa (in multiplayer) or Evolution Charm (in general) though.
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"As an additional cost to cast Wretched Gryff, you sacrifice [a creature]".
So no, the Gryff doesn't get blown. Is that a card to consider given the number of silver bullets? Dunno.
About Grapple With the Past, agreed. Both PoM and EV are better (I prefer to spend one more mana and gain 6 life in the process).
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
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If the combo is your main wincon? Hell yeah.
As far as Emerge goes, Wretched Gryff and It of the Horrid Swarm are the only options there. I don't think I will run It, but the Gryff will be ran.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Gryff will be in my deck.
Looking forward to the next expansion lol
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Night's Whisper ended being an awesome addition to draw cards in the deck this way.
Thinking about a (new) delve card to the maybeboard: is Tasigur's Cruelty too kamikaze to use it on multiplayer?
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G