Our group is doing its first official commander battle this month...
Sounds fun! Let us know how it goes.
Hey, it's over a year old, but I put together a couple of decklists from this thread into a comparison list. Maybe that will give you an idea of what other spells to include. There's quite a bit of flexibility with these 5-color dreamcrusher lists. And the good new is, with a few exceptions, the cards are all inexpensive.
If you have a reasonable guess about what the rest of your group is going to bring to the table, you can plan ahead and include different effects. For example, if you think you are going to run into Theros Gods, you might want some exile effects. That sort of thing. Good luck!
One final note, if your spells are going to be all commons, you should stick to all common lands, too. It makes the wins so much sweeter, especially if you are playing against powered decks. Plus, I've tried most (all?) of the configurations posted on here using MTGO and rarely, if ever, lost because I didn't get the right color of mana when I needed it.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Good call. I added your deck, LouCypher. I still need to clean up the formatting, but it should all be there. Of course, many of these cards can fit into more than one category, but I put them where I thought they had the most functional uses for comparison purposes. You have a bit more ramp/fixing, similar card draw and countermagic, less tutors, and a lot more recursion.
I'll add Alexandre's deck if s/he posts a new list. The one in the forum is from a while ago and we've gotten quite a few new cards to consider since then.
Cheers, thanks for your work, this does make things a lot easier to oversee.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Hi all!
The list in my sig is frequently updated, my last one was about 1 month ago. And hey, there you can see my pimped deck (86/100 signed, yay! If you have anything I miss and it's signed, PM me!).
I am torn between False Defeat and Disturbed Burial because the last is reausable (just like Grim Harvest). Merchant Scroll is quite irreplaceable as a tutor but it might need to go (I don't know if I can consider it a common, given the link I provided some posts above) so I'd consider any good card of another category, like Commander's Sphere, Pulse of Murasa, or maybe Augur of Bolas or Compulsive Research. Brainspoil is quite meh, Fierce Empath doesn't work in this build... need to playtest here.
And, to replace Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain (if the table is anal about ban list), you can put Sleight of Hand, Serum Visions, and Impulse.
I guess Kambal will have a target in his head, if you survive until you can control the others you have a good chance. HTH
Not surprisingly, there seems to be some consensus around certain cards and a rough count of how many cards to put in each category. There are only so many commons, and we are all strategically trying to do the same thing with them.
Generally, the faster you can set up Child+Sacrifice+Recursion, the easier it is to control the game and win. The card advantage you gain from blowing up the world the first time is usually enough to create a winning position eventually. But, getting to a position where it is clear that you can blow up the world any time you want to, as many times as you want to, is usually enough to win on the spot (through everyone else conceding). For that reason, I favor a list that has the lowest casting cost cards in each category, and as many of the tutors, card drawing, and card quality spells as we can run.
So Below is my Deck. Im still trying to figure out what to tutor for and what lands i need to search for but here are some questions about the deck that i need help with.
So ive casually play tested this deck with myself and 2 other friends decks. so we played a free for all with 3 plp. Havent been able to play it with 4 plp at the table.
From reading through this forum and reading the primer. It seems like you should be able to play COA on turn 4. I was Never able to do that in the limited play testing i did. Prob 5-8 times. I was always looking for a Mountain or plains. I usually was able to get COA turn 5.
1. Am I playing the deck wrong? or should i add more plains or Mountains to the deck. any advice to help get COA out on turn 4?
What is the best method to kill COA to wipe the board?
2. Should i attack into another player and get killed per combat damage? Or should i just always use my SAC outlets on myself?
- The prob i ran into is i was going up against a 7/7 or higher commander and so they would just block and kill me and take no damage. Yes i would wipe the board but by turn 7 they have enough manna to usually keep playing there commander each turn for awhile.
- As i am typing this out something popped in my head i usually only attacked or SACed COA when the board was getting full. But should i just keep blowing up there commander until the cost is too high for them to cast it again as it goes up 1 mana each time it hits there command zone. My commander is never going up but i might run out recursion
3. I should always CHOOSE to have my commander go to the graveyard correct? Even if its exiled I can choose to have it go to the graveyard instead of the command zone correct? Or is there ever an instance you want COA to go to the command zone. If she goes to the command zone her ability doesn't trigger. So just curious on that?
4. How do you win the game?
- yes there is the threat of blowing up the world every time. But as i said before as long as the other teams have enough mana to cast there commander and there commander or creatures are bigger than my 6/6COA how am i supposed to take there life down to 40.
I kept having games basically stall out or they would counter one of my plays and then swing in a hit me for damage.
-so what ways do you usually win the game with little to no creatures.
5. Any combos i should be looking for in my deck. I may have not been playing it right but never got any hands where i did anything super spectacular?
I def get the general concept of the deck. I have the power to destroy the field at any time or as long as i have recursion cards in my hand but alittle foggy on how to finish it out and how long to wait before i blow up the world.
Thanks for any help you can be to my questions above or my deck below.
5. Any combos i should be looking for in my deck. I may have not been playing it right but never got any hands where i did anything super spectacular?
Just playing the deck more you'll start to see cards that are better in your opening hand and understand when to mulligan.
You do have an infinite mana combo in Ghostly Flicker, Archaeomancer, Cloud of Faeries and Dimir Aqueduct (and all the functional copies like Izzet Chronarch, Simic Growth Chamber, etc.)
Cast Ghostly Flicker targeting Archaeomancer and Cloud of Faeries. When they re enter you can return Flicker to your hand and untap some lands. If you have any of the lands that tap for more than one mana you can repeat this over and over again making infinite mana. Once you get to this point you can target the Archaeomancer and a creature that lets you draw cards like Sea Gate Oracleto draw til you get Rolling Thunder and win or Capsize and bounce every card (including lands)your opponents control.
You'll notice that all these cards have similar cmc's of around 3 which match the transmute cards nicely.
There's some other neat tricks like using Crop Rotation in an opponent's end step before your turn to get Mortuary Mire and put Child on top of your library to draw into.
Finding Opal Palace early can mean that Child will always be a 7/7 so it gets those 3 attack commander damage wins (this can be a rarity though as some games need Child to die too often to attack much).
@VivienneHell: Thanks for making the spreadsheet. I realize I have not updated my list in quite some time. Will try to amend that shortly, if you'd care to update the spreadsheet then.
Generally, the faster you can set up Child+Sacrifice+Recursion, the easier it is to control the game and win. The card advantage you gain from blowing up the world the first time is usually enough to create a winning position eventually. But, getting to a position where it is clear that you can blow up the world any time you want to, as many times as you want to, is usually enough to win on the spot (through everyone else conceding). For that reason, I favor a list that has the lowest casting cost cards in each category, and as many of the tutors, card drawing, and card quality spells as we can run.
I quite agree! However, I also find a good mana base instrumental in achieving this. Aaand you need a few silver bullets and counters too, to protect your main plan from... well, mostly other decks with silver bullets and counters
1. Am I playing the deck wrong? or should i add more plains or Mountains to the deck. any advice to help get COA out on turn 4?
The T4 CoA plan was an initial obsession of mine, but I think I was wrong to prioritize it so highly. It also depends a lot on your mulligan rules. Are you using partial Paris for multi EDH or something else? Most lists these days are optimized for consistent T5 CoA, which gives you more branching plays on T3-4. Sometimes, you may use a turn to tutor for ramp/fixing, rather than run an enormous amount of ramp/fixing and Forests just for the T4 plan. Typically, adding an extra Mountain/Plains or 2 does very little to improve WUBRG statistics. It does make sense to have extra non-dedicated R/W sources in your duals/panoramas though. Especially red sources, because having WUBRG+R on T5 with REB/Pyro in hand is the new "holy grail" of openers, but it's not something to build your deck around generally.
2. Should i attack into another player and get killed per combat damage? Or should i just always use my SAC outlets on myself?
- The prob i ran into is i was going up against a 7/7 or higher commander and so they would just block and kill me and take no damage. Yes i would wipe the board but by turn 7 they have enough manna to usually keep playing there commander each turn for awhile.
- As i am typing this out something popped in my head i usually only attacked or SACed COA when the board was getting full. But should i just keep blowing up there commander until the cost is too high for them to cast it again as it goes up 1 mana each time it hits there command zone. My commander is never going up but i might run out recursion
There are many options. In multiplayer, the best strategy is often to serve as an equalizer and let others kill each other. You can attack into open targets if it's politically sound, or into a crowd if you wouldn't mind blowing up CoA anyway (it saves you a sac outlet if they block, or you get to deal damage if they don't). Having instant speed means to blow up CoA if you're attacked in return is crucial. Grim Harvest or similar engine card is crucial for the long game, but mana attrition where you pit your steady cost GY recursion against their ability to recast their commander is usually a pretty terrible way to win IMO. When there are fewer or just one opponent left, you can use combo to finish off as Pete suggests, or just use Capsize to further your mana advantage. I usually win with dealing 21 with CoA though. Mostly as a formality after crippling them with CA through sweeping, Capsize and/or Mind Extraction.
3. I should always CHOOSE to have my commander go to the graveyard correct? Even if its exiled I can choose to have it go to the graveyard instead of the command zone correct? Or is there ever an instance you want COA to go to the command zone. If she goes to the command zone her ability doesn't trigger. So just curious on that?
If CoA is exiled, it is either exiled or goes to CZ, you can't chose to put it in GY unless you can respond with an instant speed sac/destroy outlet that resolves before the exiling effect. If CoA dies (is destroyed), you cannot opt to put it in CZ if you want its sweeper ability to trigger. That's why we need to run so much recursion. We still make use of the CZ, for when CoA is exiled. This happens in two main scenarios: 1) someone hates on CoA and hits it with exiling removal (boo hoo). 2) Your yard gets wiped with CoA in it - you save a recursion spell and get to cast CoA for 2 more (yey!). Item 2) can be exploited with Treasure Cruise (if your group allows that card - unfortunately, other delve cards are not worth running).
4. How do you win the game?
Pete already replied to the combo question above, but I stress that even when you win with CoA, you're not actually winning by creature superiority. CoA is just a formality to seal the deal after you drown them in in card/mana advantage. I have won before turn 10 on CoA damage in 1v1 games where my opp didn't develop mana. If I have 8 mana on turn 7 and they have 5, and I just countered their 5 CMC commander, they are screwed. Again, it's not CoA winning, I'm just using it as a means to exploit my already established advantage. Similarly, don't think you can pull off combo on turn 10 at a 5 man table with 2 blue players. You win by being a destroyer of board states, and the fact that 95% of EDH decks need to preserve a certain board state for at least a turn to win. For decks that can win out of the blue, you pack counters, instant speed exiling and such things. You are basically a control deck that can opt for an aggro or combo finish, or even a prison concession (like: after playing Capsize 8 times, opp has 2 lands in play and you have 12). But you need to have control before you finish.
The tap duals keep getting fewer and fewer. In effect, I cut one whenever new and shiny things like Ash Barrens of Path of Ancestry shows up. At the rate their upping the quality in common lands, I predict they will all be gone within 18 months. After that, I'll probably be cutting panoramas.
Refitted Reaping the Graves after the creature count supported it better. It's probably one of the least fixed slots of the deck.
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I also reformatted the lists slightly. There seems to be consensus around some cards, although urdjur, LouCypher, and alexandre have cards that differ from d0su's list in many areas. This could be because d0su's list is outdated, or it could be preference.
For example, Crop Rotation shows up in all of the lists except d0su's. Crop Rotation not only color-fixes, but also allows for techy plays with utility lands. It is almost certainly good in this deck. The decks are split on Wayfarer's Bauble, which is a card I like here for being colorless ramp, color-fixing, and also a reasonable first-turn play in a deck that doesn't have many.
Deep Analysis is another card that shows up in all three lists, but does not show up in d0su's list. Similarly, Dimir House Guard. And again, with Angelic Purge and Ash Barrens. I have to believe that in at least some of these cases, it is simply because d0su's list is out of date.
Thanks for updating the spreadsheet! It would be really nice to compile a consensus list - I propose a definition where a card is played in at least 3 out of 4 lists (OK, so not quite consensus, but it makes more sense IMO). Cards that show up in 2 out of 4 lists should probably be in a "solid picks" list too. I could use that info to update the primer on the main page.
As for the deviations you bring up: Crop Rotation was thought to be bad due to CD until we realized tutoring for a bounce land brought card parity. As you can see, d0su runs very few bounce lands. This also ties into the combo wincon. IMO, the Restorer/Reel combo has been completely replaced by Cloud of Faeries (+optional Drake... it depends on how far down the ghostly flicker rabbit hole you want to go). Crop Rotation is key to assemble that combo, being an instant you can tutor for with Mystical Teachings. With Restorer/Reel combo and almost no bounce lands, Crop Rotation is not at all as useful.
Wayfarer's Bauble: You can run both this and Expedition Map. IMO, having a colorless source of 1 CMC mana fixing makes sense with running Dizzy Spell (and Trinket Mage). Running both is somewhat redundant, and truth to be told, the green ramp is better than bauble while Expedition Map is roughly on par with Crop Rotation (2 mana more for a card is standard fare). Certainly always a card for consideration though, especially if you run Trinket Mage.
Dimir House Guard is only as good as its targets. IMO, you MUST run a solid 4 CMC recursion spell to justify this card. I used to run Breath of Life and have now turned to Mistmoon Griffin instead (the jury is still out - would love to hear what the rest of you have to say about the Griffin!). Also at least 1 good draw spell like Foresee/DA is pretty mandatory, and d0su runs neither - and no Reap and Sow either. That means Mystical Teachings or possibly Archaeomancer are the only good targets for it, which is not enough to run it IMO.
Angelic Purge and Ash Barrens (and Rend Flesh over Wretched Gryff) are probably due to the list being outdated. Purge really cuts down on needed silver bullets IMO. I feel super lean these days running only Purge, Capsize, Devour Flesh and Tragic Slip (to have answers to indestructibles in all CMCs for easy tutoring) - but it seems to work fine and be very sufficient (and all of those cards do other stuff apart from being silver bullets!). Similarly, Bojuka Bog does so much work with 3 any-land-tutors and bounce lands with Shred Memory as back-up that more GY hate isn't really needed. The only dedicated silver bullet in my list right now is Spore Frog, and I wouldn't cut it. It's like CoA #2 late game if you're really taking heat.
Things I'd like more discussion is: mana base and recursion package. I think we could get closer to a consensus here. Things I'd like to discuss:
*Reaping the Graves and creature total vs. Disturbed Burial as back-up engine to Grim Harvest
*Mistmoon Griffin vs. Breath of Life/False Hope
*Are all Ravnica bounce lands strictly better than all the life tap duals? Does it depend on total number of bounce lands, color combination or something else?
*What panoramas are better than any tap dual, if any? In budget non-pauper EDH, panoramas are often valued above Wilds/Expanse (for not slowing you down mid-game) so where do we draw the line and why?
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All i did was organize each group and put all the same cards in the same row I started at the top of each section and if it was in all 5 decks it is at the top. then 4 of the 5. then 3 of the 5 and then 2 out of 5. any cards in YELLOW are not duplicated at all.
I also switched the order of alexandre deck and LouCypher deck(Alexandre is now the 4th column and LouCyoher is in the 5th column) as alexandre deck is more close to the other 2 decks in the middle of the sheet. So Both decks on the outsides(1st and 5th column) d0su and Loucypher have the most diversity of cards.
If you don't like what i did or don't understand anything just ask me or don't worry if you change it to better suit your guys needs i wont be sad.
Just trying to help
Thanks for all your guys help so far. I appreciate the responses to my questions
Very nice work! I will definitely use this as a basis for a primer update (hopefully in the near future).
I realize some of the list discrepancies are also due to confusing legality issues. First there is the perennial "what is common?" debate. Alexandre posted a link a page back. Basically, the de facto rarity/prevalence of Merchant Scroll is uncommon, but it is listed as common on gatherer. OTOH, the de facto rarity of Strip Mine/Mishra's Factory is common (being printed on BOTH C1 and U sheets makes it more common than C2 commons!), but it is listed as uncommon. The problem is, there's not clear cut way to translate between rarity systems and I personally think gatherer should be canon. Also, Merchant Scroll as a common is much more on par in terms of power with similar common rarity effects (like Muddle the Mixture), whereas Strip Mine/Factory is not by a long shot. This means I'm inclined to treat Merchant Scroll as common and Strip Mine as uncommon (and therefore not useful) when updating the primer based on the spread sheet (relevant because d0su runs Strip Mine and Alexandre opts not to run Merchant Scroll for legality reasons).
The second thing is, what format are we going by? I cut Treasure Cruise for being banned in both 1v1 Commander (the MTGO format) and Duel Commander. OTOH, it's not banned in multiplayer Commander. And CoA is mostly for multi anyway, even though it can also be for casual 1-on-1. Hence it makes little sense to abide by a two player banlist. In particular, I lost faith that the 1v1 Commander banlist would be relevant at all for my MtG experience when they banned Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain. I think it would be absurd for CoA to consider that (again why I assume these are missing from Alexandre's list). What are your thoughts on this?
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I'm going by Magiccard.info's rarity list usually, so no Merchant Scroll for me. And I'm sticking to the multiplayer list. There aren't any really offensive cards in there for most 1v1 casual games anyway.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Yes, my list is out of date. I run both Angelic Purge and Ash Barrens, plus some other odds and ends changes. I have not had much time for M:tG recently (chess has been my game of late). You can see from my signature that I have downsized the number of EDH decks I am keeping on hand! However, I will see if I can get a current list together.
As far as legality, I gear my deck assuming it will be multiplayer using the mtgcommander.net ban list. I keep it "commons-only", but I have no qualms bending this rule ever so slightly because no one else at the table is ever enforcing such a restriction on their own decks. I don't apologize for Strip Mine if one version was printed C1 in Antiquities!
As a matter of fact, I will probably be trying to shoehorn in Maze of Ith for the same reason! And if I am going down this path, I probably need to comb through the old collector's checklists to see if I am missing out on any other goodies.
I am toying with the idea of the Cloud of Faeries combo, mainly because I just want to play Ghostly Flicker again. It would take a total rework of the mana base, though. Krosan Restorer is really good, too -- maybe good enough to play even without the combo.
OK, so I will be going with the multiplayer banlist and gatherer rarities definition, for the purposes of this primer. I think there's a lot of merit to d0su's argument, that the commons-only is not format enforced so you have to be your own policeman. But for a primer, it helps if there is some common ground (sorry for the pun...) and I think gatherer has the biggest claim of authority to that, seeing as WotC creates this game of magic cards after all.
As a matter of fact, I will probably be trying to shoehorn in Maze of Ith for the same reason! And if I am going down this path, I probably need to comb through the old collector's checklists to see if I am missing out on any other goodies.
Maze of Ith seems like an upgrade to Spore Frog really. I don't think it's necessary to run both. Mishra's Factory is probably the only other relevant card - manlands are normally strong in normal CoA EDH. Both will be better if you transition to CoF combo with a new mana base with all three any-land-tutors.
EDIT: I have begun updating the primer. It's been over three years since!
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Yes, my list is out of date. I run both Angelic Purge and Ash Barrens, plus some other odds and ends changes. I have not had much time for M:tG recently (chess has been my game of late). You can see from my signature that I have downsized the number of EDH decks I am keeping on hand! However, I will see if I can get a current list together.
If you get a updated list. I would be more than happy to add it to the list. Not trying to take over VivienneHell job but willing to help out if I can.
Also willing to add any other users deck list to the sheet for more comparison if you think it's needed.
Also when d0su gets an updated list posted would you like me to just update it so there is just one of his lists? Or keep the old one and new one in the spreadsheet like urdjur two decks are?
Glad to see some more discussion about this deck. I had a few questions after reviewing some of the most recent updated lists from people.
1) Why isn't there any love for Altar's Reap and Costly Plunder? I get the appeal of Perilous Research because it is searchable by Merchant Scroll as well, but I feel like the ability to blow up Child and dodge counterspells (except for Stifle, Trickbind, etc.) is very valuable.
2) I was also surprised at some people passing up on Displace. Ghostly Flicker feels like such an essential part of the deck that I'd love an extra. Sure, when I am about to combo off I tend to have plenty of counters and answers to things that could stop me. However, oftentimes I find myself just flickering recursion wizards and ETB creatures to generate a ton of value and create a softlock while I am digging my way to Cloud of Faeries.
3) I have yet to be sold on Mistmoon Griffin. I like the idea, but I feel like it is just so much easier to get False Defeat / Breath of Life to work than Mistmoon Griffin. I would love to hear more feedback on how testing that card has gone for others.
4)I haven't personally added Strip Mine or Maze of Ith to my list yet, but I've always considered adding them. I may just bite the bullet and try that soon.
Other than that, I really enjoyed going over the last few posts from everyone. I'll be updating my list over the next few days. I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and checking out the updated primer.
1) There are just too many good sac outlets these days. Perilous Research gets the nod over these as you say for Merchant Scroll, but there are many other uncounterable sac outlets in the deck too (Angelic Purge, Mind Extraction, Primal Growth). If you run too many cards that are only good with CoA in play, you will have problems. Having said that, I discuss both in the updated primer as solid picks and especially Costly Plunder if you run a Trinket Mage package and Mycosynth Wellspring.
2) Displace depends on how far down you go into recursion wizards and other ETB effects IMO. Even Ghostly Flicker is a crappy card in some board positions, and most list just barely support its use outside combo.
3) Indeed, I would like more results here too. You either need to drop Griffin before you blow up CoA, or you want a redundant sac outlet if you intend to activate it with CoA already in the yard (unless you can chump with it etc). It's not very hard to use, but somewhat vulnerable to exiling removal. The sorceries are simpler but also not as powerful.
4) Ha! It might be the new Dreamcrusher trend. I don't think I'll do it though
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I don't think anyone does.i could be wrong but I think plp enjoy beating other expensive decks with an all commons deck. So for the most part you either go pauper build or drop some money and get some lands and tutors that make the deck faster ..not sure plp are playing middle ground much .
Esper: Since the printing of Sidisi's Faithful and Mortuary Mire, interest in non-pauper lists have dropped. We pretty much have all the tools we need now in commons.
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I like Disturbed Burial and Grim Harvest as they are reusable, so given enough mana this is pure CA.
Griffin vs sorceries: recycling sorceries are easier with 2 wizards. *Maybe* Griffin could replace Cadaver Imp but I like the Imp better because it can bring me transmutable critters to my hand.
IMO Ravnica bounce lands serve to combo almost exclusively. Sometimes it can help us to reuse things like Bojuka Bog and Mortuary Mire. Life tap duals serve to fix most used colors for me. I use 3-3 today and will add a bounce land making it 4-3.
On panoramas vs wilds/expanse, I use both, 2-3. Both have strong and weak points. Hard to tell which is best, for me at least.
On mana base and recursion package, I never need more than one green source, but it needs to come early in the game. Other than that, white and red are splashes so the deck is really mostly blue and black. I didn't do deep math to build my mana base but it works quite often will think about it and get back to you to discuss this.
Answering bfine70:
1) I for one run both Perilous Research and Costly Plunder - and no Merchant Scroll in the near future. I get uncounterability of Altar's Reap but I like the CA of the blue option, even if it's a bit riskier.
2) I will try to go heavy on combo, adding/testing Displace, Scrivener, Peregrine Drake and Brainspoil. Will remove Merchant Scroll and Darksteel Pendant (one of mt pet cards, but really meh). Need to think two more cards... will update you guys when I make up my mind.
Will also add one double land, making it 4 total. This is coherent with the idea of redundance of everything on the deck (ramp, draw/dig, tutors, and sac outlets at least).
If this doesn't work, let's get back to vanilla
3) I love both sorceries and they are reusable via wizards recursion, the Griffin seems less coherent with our GY manipulation. But I tend to replace one of them with Disturbed Burial because of the buyback. It's slower but hey, this is a control/combo deck.
4) I won't. I will add more combo pieces and keep the 'fairness' of the deck the same. Personal tastes
Sounds fun! Let us know how it goes.
Hey, it's over a year old, but I put together a couple of decklists from this thread into a comparison list. Maybe that will give you an idea of what other spells to include. There's quite a bit of flexibility with these 5-color dreamcrusher lists. And the good new is, with a few exceptions, the cards are all inexpensive.
Pauper Dreamcrusher Comparison
If you have a reasonable guess about what the rest of your group is going to bring to the table, you can plan ahead and include different effects. For example, if you think you are going to run into Theros Gods, you might want some exile effects. That sort of thing. Good luck!
One final note, if your spells are going to be all commons, you should stick to all common lands, too. It makes the wins so much sweeter, especially if you are playing against powered decks. Plus, I've tried most (all?) of the configurations posted on here using MTGO and rarely, if ever, lost because I didn't get the right color of mana when I needed it.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I'll add Alexandre's deck if s/he posts a new list. The one in the forum is from a while ago and we've gotten quite a few new cards to consider since then.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I will Look over those 3 lists and complete my deck.
Here is what my group will be bringing.
Kambal consul of allocation
The locust God
The ur-dragon
The list in my sig is frequently updated, my last one was about 1 month ago. And hey, there you can see my pimped deck (86/100 signed, yay! If you have anything I miss and it's signed, PM me!).
I am torn between False Defeat and Disturbed Burial because the last is reausable (just like Grim Harvest).
Merchant Scroll is quite irreplaceable as a tutor but it might need to go (I don't know if I can consider it a common, given the link I provided some posts above) so I'd consider any good card of another category, like Commander's Sphere, Pulse of Murasa, or maybe Augur of Bolas or Compulsive Research. Brainspoil is quite meh, Fierce Empath doesn't work in this build... need to playtest here.
And, to replace Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain (if the table is anal about ban list), you can put Sleight of Hand, Serum Visions, and Impulse.
I guess Kambal will have a target in his head, if you survive until you can control the others you have a good chance. HTH
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Gotcha. I added your list to the comparison spreadsheet, Alexandre.
Pauper Dreamcrusher Comparison
Not surprisingly, there seems to be some consensus around certain cards and a rough count of how many cards to put in each category. There are only so many commons, and we are all strategically trying to do the same thing with them.
Generally, the faster you can set up Child+Sacrifice+Recursion, the easier it is to control the game and win. The card advantage you gain from blowing up the world the first time is usually enough to create a winning position eventually. But, getting to a position where it is clear that you can blow up the world any time you want to, as many times as you want to, is usually enough to win on the spot (through everyone else conceding). For that reason, I favor a list that has the lowest casting cost cards in each category, and as many of the tutors, card drawing, and card quality spells as we can run.
So ive casually play tested this deck with myself and 2 other friends decks. so we played a free for all with 3 plp. Havent been able to play it with 4 plp at the table.
From reading through this forum and reading the primer. It seems like you should be able to play COA on turn 4. I was Never able to do that in the limited play testing i did. Prob 5-8 times. I was always looking for a Mountain or plains. I usually was able to get COA turn 5.
1. Am I playing the deck wrong? or should i add more plains or Mountains to the deck. any advice to help get COA out on turn 4?
What is the best method to kill COA to wipe the board?
2. Should i attack into another player and get killed per combat damage? Or should i just always use my SAC outlets on myself?
- The prob i ran into is i was going up against a 7/7 or higher commander and so they would just block and kill me and take no damage. Yes i would wipe the board but by turn 7 they have enough manna to usually keep playing there commander each turn for awhile.
- As i am typing this out something popped in my head i usually only attacked or SACed COA when the board was getting full. But should i just keep blowing up there commander until the cost is too high for them to cast it again as it goes up 1 mana each time it hits there command zone. My commander is never going up but i might run out recursion
3. I should always CHOOSE to have my commander go to the graveyard correct? Even if its exiled I can choose to have it go to the graveyard instead of the command zone correct? Or is there ever an instance you want COA to go to the command zone. If she goes to the command zone her ability doesn't trigger. So just curious on that?
4. How do you win the game?
- yes there is the threat of blowing up the world every time. But as i said before as long as the other teams have enough mana to cast there commander and there commander or creatures are bigger than my 6/6COA how am i supposed to take there life down to 40.
I kept having games basically stall out or they would counter one of my plays and then swing in a hit me for damage.
-so what ways do you usually win the game with little to no creatures.
5. Any combos i should be looking for in my deck. I may have not been playing it right but never got any hands where i did anything super spectacular?
I def get the general concept of the deck. I have the power to destroy the field at any time or as long as i have recursion cards in my hand but alittle foggy on how to finish it out and how long to wait before i blow up the world.
Thanks for any help you can be to my questions above or my deck below.
5 Child of Alara
Other (5)
1 Spore Frog
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rolling Thunder
3 Ghostly Flicker
3 Capsize
Counters (4)
2 Counterspell
2 Overrule
3 Faerie Trickery
4 Rewind
Recursion (9)
1 Undying Evil
1 Reclaim
2 Grim Harvest
3 Cadaver Imp
3 Soul Manipulation
3 Reaping the Graves
4 Archaeomancer
4 Breath of Life
5 Izzet Chronarch
Draw/Dig (11)
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Cloud of Faeries
3 Read the Bones
3 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Compulsive Research
4 Deep Analysis
4 Foresee
5 Mulldrifter
7 Treasure Cruise
Tutors (10)
1 Dizzy Spell
2 Dimir Infiltrator
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Shred Memory
2 Vedalken Aethermage
3 Drift of Phantasms
3 Perplex
4 Dimir House Guard
4 Mystical Teachings
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sidisi's Faithful
2 Devour Flesh
2 Perilous Research
2 Terminate
3 Angelic Purge
3 Mind Extraction
3 Unmake
Ramp (11)
1 Expedition Map
1 Wayfarer’s Bauble
1 Crop Rotation
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Cultivate
3 Darksteel Ingot
3 Far Wanderings
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Primal Growth
4 Reap and Sow
5 Traumatic Visions
Lands (28)
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Opal Palace
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanseo
1 Bant Panorama
1 Jund Panorama
1 Ash Barrens
1 Halimar Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mortuary Mire
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Gruul Turf
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Tranquil Cove
1 Dismal Backwater
1 Blossoming Sands
1 Scoured Barrens
1 Bloodfell caves
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Rugged Highlands
1 Jungle Hollow
5 Island
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Just playing the deck more you'll start to see cards that are better in your opening hand and understand when to mulligan.
You do have an infinite mana combo in Ghostly Flicker, Archaeomancer, Cloud of Faeries and Dimir Aqueduct (and all the functional copies like Izzet Chronarch, Simic Growth Chamber, etc.)
Cast Ghostly Flicker targeting Archaeomancer and Cloud of Faeries. When they re enter you can return Flicker to your hand and untap some lands. If you have any of the lands that tap for more than one mana you can repeat this over and over again making infinite mana. Once you get to this point you can target the Archaeomancer and a creature that lets you draw cards like Sea Gate Oracleto draw til you get Rolling Thunder and win or Capsize and bounce every card (including lands)your opponents control.
You'll notice that all these cards have similar cmc's of around 3 which match the transmute cards nicely.
There's some other neat tricks like using Crop Rotation in an opponent's end step before your turn to get Mortuary Mire and put Child on top of your library to draw into.
Finding Opal Palace early can mean that Child will always be a 7/7 so it gets those 3 attack commander damage wins (this can be a rarity though as some games need Child to die too often to attack much).
I quite agree! However, I also find a good mana base instrumental in achieving this. Aaand you need a few silver bullets and counters too, to protect your main plan from... well, mostly other decks with silver bullets and counters
The T4 CoA plan was an initial obsession of mine, but I think I was wrong to prioritize it so highly. It also depends a lot on your mulligan rules. Are you using partial Paris for multi EDH or something else? Most lists these days are optimized for consistent T5 CoA, which gives you more branching plays on T3-4. Sometimes, you may use a turn to tutor for ramp/fixing, rather than run an enormous amount of ramp/fixing and Forests just for the T4 plan. Typically, adding an extra Mountain/Plains or 2 does very little to improve WUBRG statistics. It does make sense to have extra non-dedicated R/W sources in your duals/panoramas though. Especially red sources, because having WUBRG+R on T5 with REB/Pyro in hand is the new "holy grail" of openers, but it's not something to build your deck around generally.
There are many options. In multiplayer, the best strategy is often to serve as an equalizer and let others kill each other. You can attack into open targets if it's politically sound, or into a crowd if you wouldn't mind blowing up CoA anyway (it saves you a sac outlet if they block, or you get to deal damage if they don't). Having instant speed means to blow up CoA if you're attacked in return is crucial. Grim Harvest or similar engine card is crucial for the long game, but mana attrition where you pit your steady cost GY recursion against their ability to recast their commander is usually a pretty terrible way to win IMO. When there are fewer or just one opponent left, you can use combo to finish off as Pete suggests, or just use Capsize to further your mana advantage. I usually win with dealing 21 with CoA though. Mostly as a formality after crippling them with CA through sweeping, Capsize and/or Mind Extraction.
If CoA is exiled, it is either exiled or goes to CZ, you can't chose to put it in GY unless you can respond with an instant speed sac/destroy outlet that resolves before the exiling effect. If CoA dies (is destroyed), you cannot opt to put it in CZ if you want its sweeper ability to trigger. That's why we need to run so much recursion. We still make use of the CZ, for when CoA is exiled. This happens in two main scenarios: 1) someone hates on CoA and hits it with exiling removal (boo hoo). 2) Your yard gets wiped with CoA in it - you save a recursion spell and get to cast CoA for 2 more (yey!). Item 2) can be exploited with Treasure Cruise (if your group allows that card - unfortunately, other delve cards are not worth running).
Pete already replied to the combo question above, but I stress that even when you win with CoA, you're not actually winning by creature superiority. CoA is just a formality to seal the deal after you drown them in in card/mana advantage. I have won before turn 10 on CoA damage in 1v1 games where my opp didn't develop mana. If I have 8 mana on turn 7 and they have 5, and I just countered their 5 CMC commander, they are screwed. Again, it's not CoA winning, I'm just using it as a means to exploit my already established advantage. Similarly, don't think you can pull off combo on turn 10 at a 5 man table with 2 blue players. You win by being a destroyer of board states, and the fact that 95% of EDH decks need to preserve a certain board state for at least a turn to win. For decks that can win out of the blue, you pack counters, instant speed exiling and such things. You are basically a control deck that can opt for an aggro or combo finish, or even a prison concession (like: after playing Capsize 8 times, opp has 2 lands in play and you have 12). But you need to have control before you finish.
EDIT: Decklist:
5 Child of Alara
CREATURES (15)
4 Archaeomancer
3 Cadaver Imp
2 Cloud of Faeries
4 Dimir House Guard
2 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Drift of Phantasms
5 Izzet Chronarch
4 Mistmoon Griffin
5 Mulldrifter
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
3 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Sidisi's Faithful
1 Spore Frog
2 Vedalken Aethermage
7 Wretched Gryff
ARTIFACTS (4)
3 Commander's Sphere
3 Darksteel Ingot
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Expedition Map
ENCHANTMENTS (1)
3 Shade's Form
SORCERIES (15)
3 Angelic Purge
3 Compulsive Research
3 Cultivate
4 Deep Analysis
4 Foresee
3 Kodama's Reach
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Mind Extraction
2 Night's Whisper
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Primal Growth
3 Read the Bones
4 Reap and Sow
2 Rolling Thunder
1 Brainstorm
3 Capsize
2 Counterspell
1 Crop Rotation
2 Devour Flesh
1 Dizzy Spell
2 Evolution Charm
3 Faerie Trickery
3 Ghostly Flicker
2 Grim Harvest
2 Impulse
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Mystical Teachings
2 Overrule
2 Perilous Research
3 Perplex
3 Pulse of Murasa
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Reaping the Graves
2 Shred Memory
3 Soul Manipulation
2 Terminate
1 Tragic Slip
5 Traumatic Visions
1 Undying Evil
LANDS (38)
1 Ash Barrens
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Opal Palace
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Rupture Spire
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Jund Panorama
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Rugged Highlands
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Thornwood Falls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Halimar Depths
1 Mortuary Mire
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forest
6 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
5 Swamp
The tap duals keep getting fewer and fewer. In effect, I cut one whenever new and shiny things like Ash Barrens of Path of Ancestry shows up. At the rate their upping the quality in common lands, I predict they will all be gone within 18 months. After that, I'll probably be cutting panoramas.
Refitted Reaping the Graves after the creature count supported it better. It's probably one of the least fixed slots of the deck.
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MSFVLrhuIlFCRWkYNd7RGjWHrVKC5iG1JIWbFdZvzsg/edit?usp=sharing
I also reformatted the lists slightly. There seems to be consensus around some cards, although urdjur, LouCypher, and alexandre have cards that differ from d0su's list in many areas. This could be because d0su's list is outdated, or it could be preference.
For example, Crop Rotation shows up in all of the lists except d0su's. Crop Rotation not only color-fixes, but also allows for techy plays with utility lands. It is almost certainly good in this deck. The decks are split on Wayfarer's Bauble, which is a card I like here for being colorless ramp, color-fixing, and also a reasonable first-turn play in a deck that doesn't have many.
Deep Analysis is another card that shows up in all three lists, but does not show up in d0su's list. Similarly, Dimir House Guard. And again, with Angelic Purge and Ash Barrens. I have to believe that in at least some of these cases, it is simply because d0su's list is out of date.
As for the deviations you bring up: Crop Rotation was thought to be bad due to CD until we realized tutoring for a bounce land brought card parity. As you can see, d0su runs very few bounce lands. This also ties into the combo wincon. IMO, the Restorer/Reel combo has been completely replaced by Cloud of Faeries (+optional Drake... it depends on how far down the ghostly flicker rabbit hole you want to go). Crop Rotation is key to assemble that combo, being an instant you can tutor for with Mystical Teachings. With Restorer/Reel combo and almost no bounce lands, Crop Rotation is not at all as useful.
Wayfarer's Bauble: You can run both this and Expedition Map. IMO, having a colorless source of 1 CMC mana fixing makes sense with running Dizzy Spell (and Trinket Mage). Running both is somewhat redundant, and truth to be told, the green ramp is better than bauble while Expedition Map is roughly on par with Crop Rotation (2 mana more for a card is standard fare). Certainly always a card for consideration though, especially if you run Trinket Mage.
Dimir House Guard is only as good as its targets. IMO, you MUST run a solid 4 CMC recursion spell to justify this card. I used to run Breath of Life and have now turned to Mistmoon Griffin instead (the jury is still out - would love to hear what the rest of you have to say about the Griffin!). Also at least 1 good draw spell like Foresee/DA is pretty mandatory, and d0su runs neither - and no Reap and Sow either. That means Mystical Teachings or possibly Archaeomancer are the only good targets for it, which is not enough to run it IMO.
Angelic Purge and Ash Barrens (and Rend Flesh over Wretched Gryff) are probably due to the list being outdated. Purge really cuts down on needed silver bullets IMO. I feel super lean these days running only Purge, Capsize, Devour Flesh and Tragic Slip (to have answers to indestructibles in all CMCs for easy tutoring) - but it seems to work fine and be very sufficient (and all of those cards do other stuff apart from being silver bullets!). Similarly, Bojuka Bog does so much work with 3 any-land-tutors and bounce lands with Shred Memory as back-up that more GY hate isn't really needed. The only dedicated silver bullet in my list right now is Spore Frog, and I wouldn't cut it. It's like CoA #2 late game if you're really taking heat.
Things I'd like more discussion is: mana base and recursion package. I think we could get closer to a consensus here. Things I'd like to discuss:
*Reaping the Graves and creature total vs. Disturbed Burial as back-up engine to Grim Harvest
*Mistmoon Griffin vs. Breath of Life/False Hope
*Are all Ravnica bounce lands strictly better than all the life tap duals? Does it depend on total number of bounce lands, color combination or something else?
*What panoramas are better than any tap dual, if any? In budget non-pauper EDH, panoramas are often valued above Wilds/Expanse (for not slowing you down mid-game) so where do we draw the line and why?
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I cleaned up and organized the spreadsgeet.
All i did was organize each group and put all the same cards in the same row I started at the top of each section and if it was in all 5 decks it is at the top. then 4 of the 5. then 3 of the 5 and then 2 out of 5. any cards in YELLOW are not duplicated at all.
I also switched the order of alexandre deck and LouCypher deck(Alexandre is now the 4th column and LouCyoher is in the 5th column) as alexandre deck is more close to the other 2 decks in the middle of the sheet. So Both decks on the outsides(1st and 5th column) d0su and Loucypher have the most diversity of cards.
If you don't like what i did or don't understand anything just ask me or don't worry if you change it to better suit your guys needs i wont be sad.
Just trying to help
Thanks for all your guys help so far. I appreciate the responses to my questions
Well done! I like this layout. By the power vested in me, I officially make you the new keeper of the spreadsheet. Keep up the good work.
Maybe now I can post my list and you can add it, too.
I realize some of the list discrepancies are also due to confusing legality issues. First there is the perennial "what is common?" debate. Alexandre posted a link a page back. Basically, the de facto rarity/prevalence of Merchant Scroll is uncommon, but it is listed as common on gatherer. OTOH, the de facto rarity of Strip Mine/Mishra's Factory is common (being printed on BOTH C1 and U sheets makes it more common than C2 commons!), but it is listed as uncommon. The problem is, there's not clear cut way to translate between rarity systems and I personally think gatherer should be canon. Also, Merchant Scroll as a common is much more on par in terms of power with similar common rarity effects (like Muddle the Mixture), whereas Strip Mine/Factory is not by a long shot. This means I'm inclined to treat Merchant Scroll as common and Strip Mine as uncommon (and therefore not useful) when updating the primer based on the spread sheet (relevant because d0su runs Strip Mine and Alexandre opts not to run Merchant Scroll for legality reasons).
The second thing is, what format are we going by? I cut Treasure Cruise for being banned in both 1v1 Commander (the MTGO format) and Duel Commander. OTOH, it's not banned in multiplayer Commander. And CoA is mostly for multi anyway, even though it can also be for casual 1-on-1. Hence it makes little sense to abide by a two player banlist. In particular, I lost faith that the 1v1 Commander banlist would be relevant at all for my MtG experience when they banned Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain. I think it would be absurd for CoA to consider that (again why I assume these are missing from Alexandre's list). What are your thoughts on this?
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Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
As far as legality, I gear my deck assuming it will be multiplayer using the mtgcommander.net ban list. I keep it "commons-only", but I have no qualms bending this rule ever so slightly because no one else at the table is ever enforcing such a restriction on their own decks. I don't apologize for Strip Mine if one version was printed C1 in Antiquities!
As a matter of fact, I will probably be trying to shoehorn in Maze of Ith for the same reason! And if I am going down this path, I probably need to comb through the old collector's checklists to see if I am missing out on any other goodies.
I am toying with the idea of the Cloud of Faeries combo, mainly because I just want to play Ghostly Flicker again. It would take a total rework of the mana base, though. Krosan Restorer is really good, too -- maybe good enough to play even without the combo.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Maze of Ith seems like an upgrade to Spore Frog really. I don't think it's necessary to run both. Mishra's Factory is probably the only other relevant card - manlands are normally strong in normal CoA EDH. Both will be better if you transition to CoF combo with a new mana base with all three any-land-tutors.
EDIT: I have begun updating the primer. It's been over three years since!
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If you get a updated list. I would be more than happy to add it to the list. Not trying to take over VivienneHell job but willing to help out if I can.
Also willing to add any other users deck list to the sheet for more comparison if you think it's needed.
Also when d0su gets an updated list posted would you like me to just update it so there is just one of his lists? Or keep the old one and new one in the spreadsheet like urdjur two decks are?
Excited for a updated primer urdjur
1) Why isn't there any love for Altar's Reap and Costly Plunder? I get the appeal of Perilous Research because it is searchable by Merchant Scroll as well, but I feel like the ability to blow up Child and dodge counterspells (except for Stifle, Trickbind, etc.) is very valuable.
2) I was also surprised at some people passing up on Displace. Ghostly Flicker feels like such an essential part of the deck that I'd love an extra. Sure, when I am about to combo off I tend to have plenty of counters and answers to things that could stop me. However, oftentimes I find myself just flickering recursion wizards and ETB creatures to generate a ton of value and create a softlock while I am digging my way to Cloud of Faeries.
3) I have yet to be sold on Mistmoon Griffin. I like the idea, but I feel like it is just so much easier to get False Defeat / Breath of Life to work than Mistmoon Griffin. I would love to hear more feedback on how testing that card has gone for others.
4)I haven't personally added Strip Mine or Maze of Ith to my list yet, but I've always considered adding them. I may just bite the bullet and try that soon.
Other than that, I really enjoyed going over the last few posts from everyone. I'll be updating my list over the next few days. I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and checking out the updated primer.
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
1) There are just too many good sac outlets these days. Perilous Research gets the nod over these as you say for Merchant Scroll, but there are many other uncounterable sac outlets in the deck too (Angelic Purge, Mind Extraction, Primal Growth). If you run too many cards that are only good with CoA in play, you will have problems. Having said that, I discuss both in the updated primer as solid picks and especially Costly Plunder if you run a Trinket Mage package and Mycosynth Wellspring.
2) Displace depends on how far down you go into recursion wizards and other ETB effects IMO. Even Ghostly Flicker is a crappy card in some board positions, and most list just barely support its use outside combo.
3) Indeed, I would like more results here too. You either need to drop Griffin before you blow up CoA, or you want a redundant sac outlet if you intend to activate it with CoA already in the yard (unless you can chump with it etc). It's not very hard to use, but somewhat vulnerable to exiling removal. The sorceries are simpler but also not as powerful.
4) Ha! It might be the new Dreamcrusher trend. I don't think I'll do it though
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But if someone is I hope they chime in
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I like Disturbed Burial and Grim Harvest as they are reusable, so given enough mana this is pure CA.
Griffin vs sorceries: recycling sorceries are easier with 2 wizards. *Maybe* Griffin could replace Cadaver Imp but I like the Imp better because it can bring me transmutable critters to my hand.
IMO Ravnica bounce lands serve to combo almost exclusively. Sometimes it can help us to reuse things like Bojuka Bog and Mortuary Mire. Life tap duals serve to fix most used colors for me. I use 3-3 today and will add a bounce land making it 4-3.
On panoramas vs wilds/expanse, I use both, 2-3. Both have strong and weak points. Hard to tell which is best, for me at least.
On mana base and recursion package, I never need more than one green source, but it needs to come early in the game. Other than that, white and red are splashes so the deck is really mostly blue and black. I didn't do deep math to build my mana base but it works quite often will think about it and get back to you to discuss this.
Answering bfine70:
1) I for one run both Perilous Research and Costly Plunder - and no Merchant Scroll in the near future. I get uncounterability of Altar's Reap but I like the CA of the blue option, even if it's a bit riskier.
2) I will try to go heavy on combo, adding/testing Displace, Scrivener, Peregrine Drake and Brainspoil. Will remove Merchant Scroll and Darksteel Pendant (one of mt pet cards, but really meh). Need to think two more cards... will update you guys when I make up my mind.
Will also add one double land, making it 4 total. This is coherent with the idea of redundance of everything on the deck (ramp, draw/dig, tutors, and sac outlets at least).
If this doesn't work, let's get back to vanilla
3) I love both sorceries and they are reusable via wizards recursion, the Griffin seems less coherent with our GY manipulation. But I tend to replace one of them with Disturbed Burial because of the buyback. It's slower but hey, this is a control/combo deck.
4) I won't. I will add more combo pieces and keep the 'fairness' of the deck the same. Personal tastes
All the best!!
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G