Just thought I would ask, I tend to keep a lookout for interesting commons that might fit your deck.
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This month I've been testing a few cards in the slot previously occupied by Divination. I started with Grim Discovery but quickly shifted to Remember the Fallen as it has more of an impact my games. It can be awkward drawing it and Mine Excavation early but it adds a little more redundancy to the deck as well as gives me a means to recur artifacts that can be transmuted for by Perplex and Drift of Phantasms. In retrospect it seems obvious (Overheat recommended it in February) but I always considered it for the Mine Excavation slot rather than in addition to it.
The deck in it's current form is pretty optimal with room to be tweak based on play style or local meta. Barring something for the deck coming out in M14 or Theros (another ETB spell recursion creature would be ideal), I think it will remain in it's current form for the foreseeable future.
On another note, this week marks this deck's one year anniversary. I'm glad it's has continued to be fun to play and challenging for its opponents. Thanks to everyone who has read along and contributed to the deck's development along the way (especially urdjur, trancer99, & jakalova).
If only Trinket Mage could retrieve a Guinness from the fridge, then the deck would be perfect! 1 beer probably cost no more than (1) to even the least skilled mages.
Ashnod's Coupon is what you're looking for. If the target beverage is alcoholic, the target player can't be a minor. Yeah, it's not common and, yeah, it's silver borderd, but what can ya do?
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
hey, i'm looking at building this deck and i'm kinda wondering what you'd use instead of rimewind taskmage. i know you used to use stonybrook angler, but would something like norritt, tidewater minion, or trickster mage be preferable? i just feel like running bouncelands and zendikar utility lands like kabira crossroads and sejiri steppe over some basics would be cool, but that reduces the effectiveness of taskmage.
also, is perplex mostly used for transmute? you have it listed in the counters section but it seems like a rather dodgy counter; i feel as though something like psychic strike or mana leak is better unless the transmute is actually relevant.
All the creatures you mentioned were considered but none of them seemed effective enough by themselves to be worthwhile. Without Merieke in play they are all costly creatures with marginal effects. Norritt's second ability is interesting but would probably be better served in a deck with a lot of deathtouch creatures. Trickster Mage is dependent on having something in your hand you're willing to discard to it and in my experience with the deck that's rare. It's okay if you're ahead but if you are on defense or in top deck mode it's terrible. And Tidewater Minion is essentially a vanilla creature without Merieke in play. A card I have reconsidered for the deck to compliment Rimewind Taskmage (or Stonybrook Angler) is Pestermite. Sure it's a one time effect but it's still very effective on its own and another strong target for Ghostly Flicker.
Including the bounce lands is still an option even with Rimewind Taskmage. In most games I don't normally get Taskmage online until after turn 10 so cutting 3 or 4 basics probably won't impact that too often. I would caution you not to over do it on lands that enter the battlefield tapped.
Perplex is used both as a counter and as a tutor based on when it's drawn. Transmute is always relevant and is something I use it for regularly late game when opponents may not have anything in hand. At the very least you can use it to get Faerie Trickery or Soul Manipulation. In most cases it gets transmuted for removal or recursion.
Thanks for the questions! Keep me posted on how your version works out.
oh yeah, and i was also wondering if you ever played dispeller's capsule? having a disenchant fetchable with trinket mage seems pretty neat to me.
I've always shied away from Dispeller's Capsule because it required having double white up if you wanted to cast & activate on the same turn which can be fairly challenging early. That said it may be worth testing in Dismantling Blow's spot. It certainly adds to the Trinket Mage package and enhances Mine Excavation & Remember the Fallen as well.
I should note I have started testing the Ravnica bounce lands again, switching out 2 Islands & a Swamp for them, and am liking them so far. Not sure if Kabira Crossroads or Sejiri Steppe are necessary.
Updated the original post with a new list I've been testing lately. Recent games have underscored the deck's need for some sort of fog effect and Dawn Charm has always been a strong card for white in that regard. I also tested Riot Control from Dragon's Maze which seemed better initially with the ability to gain life and prevent damage from all sources. Ultimately the difference in mana cost made it challenging to cast (and recast) in tight games. I'm still not 100% on which I prefer.
In order to make room for Dawn Charm I had to cut a land. This also opened up the opportunity to tighten up the mana base and add Grim Discovery for the deck's 37th land slot. The deck has six cards that can directly search for lands and plenty of other ways to find those cards, dig, or recur everything so I haven't had any mana issues yet.
Ultimately I'm liking where the deck is at this point. Comments welcomed as always.
The list is tightening up to a point where it's difficult to suggest improvements. A few observations/questions though:
1) The recursion suite is interesting. There's no Disturbed Burial or Reaping the Graves in there, but there is both Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp as well as Death Denied. Personally, I rank the common options like this: Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial, Reaping the Graves, Death Denied. Then if bounce/blink engines are available, I'd consider Cadaver Imp between the built-in recursion of Harvest/Burial and the multiple recursion of RtG/DD (RtG is stronger against counters, and always cheaper, though not always predictable). I'd only run Gravedigger if I really needed another good target for Dimir House Guard (same with Urborg Uprising for Brainspoil). Please report on how Grim Discovery has been treating you - it's one of those cards I always keep in mind for sheer bang-for-buck efficiency.
2) Courier's Capsule. I return to this card, and to a lesser extent Executioner's Capsule. Aren't these just suboptimal artifact variants of more efficient cards that are sort of made good by Sanctum Gargoyle, which in turn is sort of made good by running sort of good artifacts? You have excellent creature, instant and sorcery recursion already. What's the added benefit of dipping into artifacts? It seems to me Feldon's Cane is the only artifact-unique effect and you can't recur that anyway. (Bojuka Bog in flicker engine >> trying to recur Nihil Spellbomb - just saying)
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1) The recursion suite is interesting. There's no Disturbed Burial or Reaping the Graves in there, but there is both Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp as well as Death Denied. Personally, I rank the common options like this: Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial, Reaping the Graves, Death Denied. Then if bounce/blink engines are available, I'd consider Cadaver Imp between the built-in recursion of Harvest/Burial and the multiple recursion of RtG/DD (RtG is stronger against counters, and always cheaper, though not always predictable). I'd only run Gravedigger if I really needed another good target for Dimir House Guard (same with Urborg Uprising for Brainspoil). Please report on how Grim Discovery has been treating you - it's one of those cards I always keep in mind for sheer bang-for-buck efficiency.
Reap the Grave is too dependent on other spells being cast for my tastes. Grim Discovery has come in handy in the games I have tested with it. Mid and late game I can almost always cast it for value after I've put a fetch land into the graveyard or another land has gotten there via Compulsive Research, Forbidden Alchemy, or an opponent's play. Land destruction is becoming a thing in the playgroup I'm in so having it feels like a safe play.
2) Courier's Capsule. I return to this card, and to a lesser extent Executioner's Capsule. Aren't these just suboptimal artifact variants of more efficient cards that are sort of made good by Sanctum Gargoyle, which in turn is sort of made good by running sort of good artifacts? You have excellent creature, instant and sorcery recursion already. What's the added benefit of dipping into artifacts? It seems to me Feldon's Cane is the only artifact-unique effect and you can't recur that anyway. (Bojuka Bog in flicker engine >> trying to recur Nihil Spellbomb - just saying)
The big reason I run Sanctum Gargoyle and the artifacts is to have redundant effects in case the deck is cut off from (or hasn't drawn into) the spellmancers. Courier's Capsule is certainly the weakest among them but it's not too far off from Divination or Inspiration. Do you think that slot would be better served as a Pilgrim's Eye, Traveler's Amulet or Conjurer's Bauble? Trinket Mage is such an excellent tutor for utility cards like Executioner's Capsule and the Spellbombs that not having a way to recur them seems incorrect. Gargoyle along with Gravedigger/Cadaver Imp enhance the Ghostly Flicker engine late game so why not play them? And while Flicker + Bojuka Bog is stronger, being able to find Nihil Spellbomb via Trinket Mage is a nice plan B in a pinch.
Do you think cutting Gargoyle, Trinket Mage, & most of the artifacts to beef up the instant/sorcery draw & removal suite would be better? Is Deja Vu and/or Brainspoil considerations to enhance the spellmancers?
The big reason I run Sanctum Gargoyle and the artifacts is to have redundant effects in case the deck is cut off from (or hasn't drawn into) the spellmancers. Courier's Capsule is certainly the weakest among them but it's not too far off from Divination or Inspiration. Do you think that slot would be better served as a Pilgrim's Eye, Traveler's Amulet or Conjurer's Bauble? Trinket Mage is such an excellent tutor for utility cards like Executioner's Capsule and the Spellbombs that not having a way to recur them seems incorrect. Gargoyle along with Gravedigger/Cadaver Imp enhance the Ghostly Flicker engine late game so why not play them? And while Flicker + Bojuka Bog is stronger, being able to find Nihil Spellbomb via Trinket Mage is a nice plan B in a pinch.
Do you think cutting Gargoyle, Trinket Mage, & most of the artifacts to beef up the instant/sorcery draw & removal suite would be better? Is Deja Vu and/or Brainspoil considerations to enhance the spellmancers?
I think that kind of redundancy is uncertain - you risk drawing the wrong recursion type for the cards in your grave. I'd sooner run Brainspoil (and perhaps Urborg Uprising) and maybe an extra instant to replace Capsule. You run all the best black ones, but what about protection from black? Crypt Rats handles other forms of untargetability, but in most EDH metas, Reprisal is pretty solid - especially if Dawn Charm recursion is your only answer to pro:black.
I think Trinket Mage is pretty good actually, even if you're only running artifact lands as targets (don't miss out on Darksteel Citadel if LD is getting to be an issue and you have colorless slots to spare). I also really like Pilgrim's Eye which works similarly with flickering. The other artifacts mentioned are kind of bleh IMO. If you want to be able to recur Nihil Spellbomb or other GOOD non-creature artifacts, I think Remember the Fallen and all your tutors should suffice. There's hardly a unique effect in your artifacts, and you typically have more powerful instants than artifacts - you don't need to recur all spells as long as you can recur the best ones.
So to be more concrete:
- Sanctum Gargoyle
- Mine Excavataion
- Courier's Capsule
- Rhystic Study (you were talking about cutting this earlier - I think it's only good with other taxing effects)
- Executioner's Capsule
- Aether Spellbomb (this is not a powerful effect for the mana)
- Armillary Sphere (possibly - this one is borderline good enough IMO)
+ Brainspoil
+ Pilgrim's Eye
+ Reprisal (or something else to replace Ex Cap)
+ Urborg Uprising (support Brainspoil, it's very mana efficient and reliable)
+2-3 other cards. Since more draw/filtering is excellent both to find land and business, how about something to replace Co Cap and Study? I would really like to give Petals of Insight a spin in your deck - it's hard to think of a deck that could benefit more from it (especially with Brainspoil). Also, would Perilous Research/Altar's Reap be useful for killing off stolen creatures? If not, Ponder and Preordain are always your trusty old friends if slots need filling.
I'd also replace Strip Mine with Darksteel Citadel (under what rules are your playgroup still counting Strip Mine as a common?). Cards I would not bother to test include Deja Vu, Divination, Inspiration, Traveller's Amulet and Conjurer's Bauble.
EDIT: Just remembered, you're not running Disturbed Burial. That's a top prio for re-inclusion IMO. Bad things can happen to Grim Harvest easily.
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Since you say that you are using it mainly for multiplayer I would suggest syphon mind. Victim of night is also quite strong as compared to rend flesh say. The 1 less in cmc is quite worthwhile. I think borderpost might be an upgrade to guild gates. The number of times you do not have a basic is proberly more than made up for by the times you can use it for mana accel. Extort (the mechanic) has impressed me quite a bit whenever I got it up and running (I am only playing 4 player games though and it might be alot weaker in 3 player games). Snuff out is also quite strong.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
I think Trinket Mage is pretty good actually, even if you're only running artifact lands as targets (don't miss out on Darksteel Citadel if LD is getting to be an issue and you have colorless slots to spare).
But why limit yourself to just Nihil Spellbomb & mana fixing? Running Trinket Mage without access to Executioner's Capsule & AEther Spellbomb doesn't seem optimal. Granted they both cost a little more than instants with similar effects but Trinket Mage doesn't search for instants or sorceries. Both are solid options in a deck like this and enhance cards like Remember the Fallen later in the game.
The other artifacts mentioned are kind of bleh IMO. If you want to be able to recur Nihil Spellbomb or other GOOD non-creature artifacts, I think Remember the Fallen and all your tutors should suffice. There's hardly a unique effect in your artifacts, and you typically have more powerful instants than artifacts - you don't need to recur all spells as long as you can recur the best ones.
Again it comes back to wanting to have some built in redundancy. "Use every part of the buffalo" as Brad Bird would say. Top decking Trinket Mage mid or late game & getting Wayfarer's Bauble over removal seems bleh to me. Recurring it with Remember the Fallen over Executioner's Capsule even more so.
What you've proposed is a very dramatic shift in the deck and one I'm leery of. I have duplicates of most of the cards in the deck so I can sleeve up an alternate version and see where it goes. Not sure ALL the creature recursion is needed. Either way Rhystic Study might come out for another Disenchant effect as there are a lot of solid artifacts & enchantments being played locally that need killin' (I'm looking at you Jakalova).
We're starting to go in circles so let's just agree to disagree until I can test your suggestions. I think what I hear you saying is streamline & focus rather than trying to do everything.
I'd also replace Strip Mine with Darksteel Citadel (under what rules are your playgroup still counting Strip Mine as a common?).
I am the only one in my playgroup playing a Pauper deck and everyone else doesn't have any feelings on the matter. As I acknowledged earlier in the thread, Strip Mine is an uncommon according to Gather but I'm running it to have a means to deal with problematic utility lands I occasionally encounter in games. Boseiju, Kessik Wolf Run, Volrath's Stronghold are top of that list at the moment. It isn't a factor too often but I like having the option to deal with such things should the need arise. When we finalize the PDH rules and such I will probably drop it for Citadel to make the deck primer ready.
Since you say that you are using it mainly for multiplayer I would suggest syphon mind.
I've found that discard spells really need to be in a deck dedicated to discard. One discard spell will not cut it in most decks. Drawing it late after an opponent or two have been eliminated just makes it worse than a regular draw spell. Too situational. Mind Extraction in Child of Alara is probably the only place that I know of where a single discard spell really shines.
I think borderpost might be an upgrade to guild gates. The number of times you do not have a basic is probably more than made up for by the times you can use it for mana accel.
Borderposts are far worse than Guildgates IMO in many ways. Counter magic, Aura of Silence, artifact removal & sweepers all impede your mana development. Borderposts can't be tutored for with Expedition Map where the Guildgates can (it's rare but for arguments sake). And I certainly wouldn't cut anymore land at this point.
RE: Other creature kill spells. Reprisal certainly is a possibility but not Snuff Out. The one advantage Snuff Out has is that it can be transmuted for with Dimir House Guard. Meh.
RE: Extort - Not a fan. Few things seem to put you in the crosshairs faster in a group game. Not worth it.
I think what I hear you saying is streamline & focus rather than trying to do everything.
Sort of. I'm just pointing out that if you go (for instance) :
- Sanctum Gargoyle
- Executioner's Capsule
+ Brainspoil
+ Reprisal
You get more recursion "outs" to your instants and more instants to go with the appropriate recursion - less risk of a missmatch, without really diluting (rather increasing) overall card quality.
The compromise of course is reduced versatility for Trinket Mage, but really - if you don't feel a need to run Snuff Out just for Dimir House Guard, you shouldn't need to run Capsule/Spellbomb just for Trinket Mage. These trinkets have been tested a lot in Child of Alara and found lacking (the lack of green and red in your list shouldn't impact this significantly). I see Trinket Mage more as a souped up Pilgrim's Eye with more land options through Expedition Map and Wayfarer's Bauble AND the ability to go for Nihil Spellbomb. If Pilgrim's Eye is worth it (and I thought it was stellar in Mistmeadow Witch), then surely so is Trinket Mage - with or without artifact based removal.
I'm just having a hard time seeing what you're loosing if you go with the more focused instant route over the artifact recursion. For each suboptimal artifact, there is a better instant, and the artifact recursion can be replaced with more/better creature/instant recursion (or tutors for it). I rely on Sanctum Gargoyle and friends in Vizkopa Guildmage, but that's only because I CAN'T recur instants/sorceries in it. After building several PDH decks, a rule of thumb has emerged: 3 recursion categories is best. Vizkopa has creatures, artifacts, enchantments. MmW has instant, sorcery, enchantment. I think you should go with creatures, instant, sorcery (pretty much what most CoA players are doing also, with the exception of the odd Reclaim).
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Lumping Snuff Out in with Executioner's Capsule & AEther Spellbomb is a little bit of a stretch. Snuff Out falls short because it doesn't do enough compared to the other options available at four mana. Whereas Capsule & Spellbomb have similar costs as the other removal the deck is already running.
In CoA the deck aims to have every creature kill card in it be able to hit Child if needed which is why Executioner's Capsule doesn't make the cut there but AEther Spellbomb is in d0su's current list.
The crux of the argument comes down to: "Is running Trinket Mage as a souped up Pilgrim's Eye is sufficient?" and I'm fighting with my instincts that say no. While Pilgrim's Eye was good in the initial build of this deck I always found it lacking late game when I already had my mana squared away. That is the main reason I want keep the trinkets.
For now I think it comes down to personal preference and what I'm familiar playing with. My current build 'feels' safe. To me anyway. I can't articulate it any better than that and I doubt any amount of verbose pontification or counterpoints are going to sway your view on the matter. I think I spent more time trying to craft this reply than did playing the deck last night. And I played for hours. I know these replies probably come off as combative but I do enjoy these discussions. At times I feel like I'm defending a dissertation or some scientific paper.
Finally, your recursion rule of thumb seems sound but I would argue that the instants/sorceries should probably be lumped together as one category. Even when a deck has access to both forms of recursion it's rare you see the likes of Deja Vu or Anarchist being played.
Lumping Snuff Out in with Executioner's Capsule & AEther Spellbomb is a little bit of a stretch. Snuff Out falls short because it doesn't do enough for four mana. Capsule & Spellbomb's costs are the same as the other removal the deck is already running.
You do know that it is the other way around right? Lumping Snuff Out in with Capsule is a little bit of a stretch. Capsule falls short because it cost 3 mana. Snuff out cost 4 life nearly all the time (except then you get low on life) and 3 mana is worth more than 4 life in most cases.
Btw. have you tried extort? Online atleast people do not like you using it, sure, but most seems to take it as neusiance and not a real problem. You get somewhat more into the crosshire with it, sure, but the power it offers is generally worth it, for me atleast.
I believe that the difference in turns between some player loses (or the start of the game) until the next player loses becomes shorter and shorter as more players goes away. Also, I would believe that you, playing a control deck, has a large advantage then you are up against fewer players. Thus, I would focus on cards which are good early on. Syphon mind is one of the best cards early in larger multiplayer games. The discard aspect is nice but is not why I think you should play the card. The card is awesome with 3 oppeonts, better than most with 2 and fairly bad in duels (on the other hand it still cantrips and you might have too much mana at that point).
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
Again with each it all comes down to personal preference & play style I suppose.
I would rather not pay life for a creature kill spell if I can help it. In that regard Executioner's Capsule costs less than Snuff Out. And Faith's Fetters is a much more versatile target for Dimir House Guard.
Extort would probably better served in a deck designed around it rather than attempting to shoehorn it into this one. I have played in multiplayer match ups against Extort cards & they end up getting their owner's in trouble. Yes they gain life & that buys them time but it doesn't always counteract the hate that comes their way as a result.
//EDIT: After a few more games this week I finally decided to cut Rhystic Study in favor of returning Pilgrim's Eye to the list. While neither are amazing top decks late game, Pilgrim's Eye has a distinct advantage early when the deck is still setting up its mana. Study was never something I'd tutor for or run out on turn three but Pilgrim's Eye certainly is. As Urdjur pointed out, Rhystic Study is best combined with other taxing effects which this deck isn't doing. I've never been disappointed to see Pilgrim's Eye in my opening hand so we'll see how it works out.
That's true. Crypt Rats have always been the deck's main sweeper but it is a challenge to activate early and rarely something I use late game unless my back is to the wall.
Replicas seem cool albeit a little pricey. I will take a look at them.
Yeah, I need a card that says "Destoy all ZombieShakes' Swamps so he cant kill Sigarda". Haven't found it yet. =/
Have you seen/tested Uncovered Clues? I put it in the Peasant Nicol Bolas deck I slapped together and I really like it's ability to dig. Thought I should mention it.
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Have you seen/tested Uncovered Clues? I put it in the Peasant Nicol Bolas deck I slapped together and I really like it's ability to dig. Thought I should mention it.
Thanks! I did look at it when it came out but quickly came to the decision that it didn't seem as good as Divination most of the time. Swinging and missing is a real possibility and that can suck. Even more so if you're forced to put needed cards on the bottom of your library.
well in the monstrosity I've concocted it's on par with Foresee. I actually opted out of Divination while testing and found that I need to pick up Ghostly Flicker instead.
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For Lists, Click Here EDH: GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU. UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax RW: Gisela, Boros Control RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?! B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
In a deck with 50 instants and sorceries (a number hard to reach even in my Peasant Child of Alara deck), you are 38% likely to find exactly 2 such cards in the 4 that you reveal. There's a 6% risk you will find 0 and a 25% you will find 1.
So even in a deck that supports it, Uncovered Clues will be much worse than a simple Divination (in itself a card that doesn't measure up for most non mono blue PDH lists) fully 31% of the time. If filtering for business is desired, then it's better the rest of the time, but most Ux PDH decks will actually want to draw land with their draw spells until turn 10 or so at least. And at that point, it doesn't really matter if you pay an extra mana for Foresee or Deep Analysis instead - much less risky card choices and more useful early game too.
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Big changes to the list. Gone is Sanctum Gargoyle and many of the trinkets that it recurred. In is additional artifact and enchantment removal along with more draw spells to find the new cards and help smooth out draws early. Death Denied was also cut to make room for the changes and Rend Flesh was swapped for Doom Blade so I would have a solid creature removal spell to transmute for at 2cc. Death Denied was a win-more spell in most of the games I cast it and I'm sure Doom Blade will serve as a solid replacement for Executioner's Capsule.
I spent of a lot of time recently defending many of the cards I cut. The playgroups I play in have gotten to a point where additional artifact & enchantment removal have become necessary and I had to make the hard choice of cutting several pet cards to make that happen. The additional draw spells will help the deck find what it needs for the given situation.
Had an opportunity to get in a few more games with the new build and overall I am pleased. Ponder, Preordain, & Read the Bones have been really solid. The biggest concern I have is that this build feels even slower and more dependent on the spellmancers. Not sure if Remember the Fallen is good enough in the current list. The number of artifacts the deck runs that naturally go to the graveyard has been cut in half so it's only being cast for value late game.
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EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
The deck in it's current form is pretty optimal with room to be tweak based on play style or local meta. Barring something for the deck coming out in M14 or Theros (another ETB spell recursion creature would be ideal), I think it will remain in it's current form for the foreseeable future.
On another note, this week marks this deck's one year anniversary. I'm glad it's has continued to be fun to play and challenging for its opponents. Thanks to everyone who has read along and contributed to the deck's development along the way (especially urdjur, trancer99, & jakalova).
Ashnod's Coupon is what you're looking for. If the target beverage is alcoholic, the target player can't be a minor. Yeah, it's not common and, yeah, it's silver borderd, but what can ya do?
also, is perplex mostly used for transmute? you have it listed in the counters section but it seems like a rather dodgy counter; i feel as though something like psychic strike or mana leak is better unless the transmute is actually relevant.
All the creatures you mentioned were considered but none of them seemed effective enough by themselves to be worthwhile. Without Merieke in play they are all costly creatures with marginal effects. Norritt's second ability is interesting but would probably be better served in a deck with a lot of deathtouch creatures. Trickster Mage is dependent on having something in your hand you're willing to discard to it and in my experience with the deck that's rare. It's okay if you're ahead but if you are on defense or in top deck mode it's terrible. And Tidewater Minion is essentially a vanilla creature without Merieke in play. A card I have reconsidered for the deck to compliment Rimewind Taskmage (or Stonybrook Angler) is Pestermite. Sure it's a one time effect but it's still very effective on its own and another strong target for Ghostly Flicker.
Including the bounce lands is still an option even with Rimewind Taskmage. In most games I don't normally get Taskmage online until after turn 10 so cutting 3 or 4 basics probably won't impact that too often. I would caution you not to over do it on lands that enter the battlefield tapped.
Perplex is used both as a counter and as a tutor based on when it's drawn. Transmute is always relevant and is something I use it for regularly late game when opponents may not have anything in hand. At the very least you can use it to get Faerie Trickery or Soul Manipulation. In most cases it gets transmuted for removal or recursion.
Thanks for the questions! Keep me posted on how your version works out.
oh yeah, and i was also wondering if you ever played dispeller's capsule? having a disenchant fetchable with trinket mage seems pretty neat to me.
I've always shied away from Dispeller's Capsule because it required having double white up if you wanted to cast & activate on the same turn which can be fairly challenging early. That said it may be worth testing in Dismantling Blow's spot. It certainly adds to the Trinket Mage package and enhances Mine Excavation & Remember the Fallen as well.
I should note I have started testing the Ravnica bounce lands again, switching out 2 Islands & a Swamp for them, and am liking them so far. Not sure if Kabira Crossroads or Sejiri Steppe are necessary.
In order to make room for Dawn Charm I had to cut a land. This also opened up the opportunity to tighten up the mana base and add Grim Discovery for the deck's 37th land slot. The deck has six cards that can directly search for lands and plenty of other ways to find those cards, dig, or recur everything so I haven't had any mana issues yet.
Ultimately I'm liking where the deck is at this point. Comments welcomed as always.
1) The recursion suite is interesting. There's no Disturbed Burial or Reaping the Graves in there, but there is both Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp as well as Death Denied. Personally, I rank the common options like this: Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial, Reaping the Graves, Death Denied. Then if bounce/blink engines are available, I'd consider Cadaver Imp between the built-in recursion of Harvest/Burial and the multiple recursion of RtG/DD (RtG is stronger against counters, and always cheaper, though not always predictable). I'd only run Gravedigger if I really needed another good target for Dimir House Guard (same with Urborg Uprising for Brainspoil). Please report on how Grim Discovery has been treating you - it's one of those cards I always keep in mind for sheer bang-for-buck efficiency.
2) Courier's Capsule. I return to this card, and to a lesser extent Executioner's Capsule. Aren't these just suboptimal artifact variants of more efficient cards that are sort of made good by Sanctum Gargoyle, which in turn is sort of made good by running sort of good artifacts? You have excellent creature, instant and sorcery recursion already. What's the added benefit of dipping into artifacts? It seems to me Feldon's Cane is the only artifact-unique effect and you can't recur that anyway. (Bojuka Bog in flicker engine >> trying to recur Nihil Spellbomb - just saying)
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I'm excited to see a pauper edh deck with real time and work put in.
Thanks. Urdjur and others have asked a lot of great questions that have really helped mold the deck into what it is today. Speaking of which...
Agreed.
Reap the Grave is too dependent on other spells being cast for my tastes. Grim Discovery has come in handy in the games I have tested with it. Mid and late game I can almost always cast it for value after I've put a fetch land into the graveyard or another land has gotten there via Compulsive Research, Forbidden Alchemy, or an opponent's play. Land destruction is becoming a thing in the playgroup I'm in so having it feels like a safe play.
The big reason I run Sanctum Gargoyle and the artifacts is to have redundant effects in case the deck is cut off from (or hasn't drawn into) the spellmancers. Courier's Capsule is certainly the weakest among them but it's not too far off from Divination or Inspiration. Do you think that slot would be better served as a Pilgrim's Eye, Traveler's Amulet or Conjurer's Bauble? Trinket Mage is such an excellent tutor for utility cards like Executioner's Capsule and the Spellbombs that not having a way to recur them seems incorrect. Gargoyle along with Gravedigger/Cadaver Imp enhance the Ghostly Flicker engine late game so why not play them? And while Flicker + Bojuka Bog is stronger, being able to find Nihil Spellbomb via Trinket Mage is a nice plan B in a pinch.
Do you think cutting Gargoyle, Trinket Mage, & most of the artifacts to beef up the instant/sorcery draw & removal suite would be better? Is Deja Vu and/or Brainspoil considerations to enhance the spellmancers?
I think that kind of redundancy is uncertain - you risk drawing the wrong recursion type for the cards in your grave. I'd sooner run Brainspoil (and perhaps Urborg Uprising) and maybe an extra instant to replace Capsule. You run all the best black ones, but what about protection from black? Crypt Rats handles other forms of untargetability, but in most EDH metas, Reprisal is pretty solid - especially if Dawn Charm recursion is your only answer to pro:black.
I think Trinket Mage is pretty good actually, even if you're only running artifact lands as targets (don't miss out on Darksteel Citadel if LD is getting to be an issue and you have colorless slots to spare). I also really like Pilgrim's Eye which works similarly with flickering. The other artifacts mentioned are kind of bleh IMO. If you want to be able to recur Nihil Spellbomb or other GOOD non-creature artifacts, I think Remember the Fallen and all your tutors should suffice. There's hardly a unique effect in your artifacts, and you typically have more powerful instants than artifacts - you don't need to recur all spells as long as you can recur the best ones.
So to be more concrete:
- Sanctum Gargoyle
- Mine Excavataion
- Courier's Capsule
- Rhystic Study (you were talking about cutting this earlier - I think it's only good with other taxing effects)
- Executioner's Capsule
- Aether Spellbomb (this is not a powerful effect for the mana)
- Armillary Sphere (possibly - this one is borderline good enough IMO)
+ Brainspoil
+ Pilgrim's Eye
+ Reprisal (or something else to replace Ex Cap)
+ Urborg Uprising (support Brainspoil, it's very mana efficient and reliable)
+2-3 other cards. Since more draw/filtering is excellent both to find land and business, how about something to replace Co Cap and Study? I would really like to give Petals of Insight a spin in your deck - it's hard to think of a deck that could benefit more from it (especially with Brainspoil). Also, would Perilous Research/Altar's Reap be useful for killing off stolen creatures? If not, Ponder and Preordain are always your trusty old friends if slots need filling.
I'd also replace Strip Mine with Darksteel Citadel (under what rules are your playgroup still counting Strip Mine as a common?). Cards I would not bother to test include Deja Vu, Divination, Inspiration, Traveller's Amulet and Conjurer's Bauble.
EDIT: Just remembered, you're not running Disturbed Burial. That's a top prio for re-inclusion IMO. Bad things can happen to Grim Harvest easily.
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But why limit yourself to just Nihil Spellbomb & mana fixing? Running Trinket Mage without access to Executioner's Capsule & AEther Spellbomb doesn't seem optimal. Granted they both cost a little more than instants with similar effects but Trinket Mage doesn't search for instants or sorceries. Both are solid options in a deck like this and enhance cards like Remember the Fallen later in the game.
Again it comes back to wanting to have some built in redundancy. "Use every part of the buffalo" as Brad Bird would say. Top decking Trinket Mage mid or late game & getting Wayfarer's Bauble over removal seems bleh to me. Recurring it with Remember the Fallen over Executioner's Capsule even more so.
What you've proposed is a very dramatic shift in the deck and one I'm leery of. I have duplicates of most of the cards in the deck so I can sleeve up an alternate version and see where it goes. Not sure ALL the creature recursion is needed. Either way Rhystic Study might come out for another Disenchant effect as there are a lot of solid artifacts & enchantments being played locally that need killin' (I'm looking at you Jakalova).
We're starting to go in circles so let's just agree to disagree until I can test your suggestions. I think what I hear you saying is streamline & focus rather than trying to do everything.
Seems like a win-more situation in most cases. Ponder and Preordain would certainly be put in the deck ahead of them.
I am the only one in my playgroup playing a Pauper deck and everyone else doesn't have any feelings on the matter. As I acknowledged earlier in the thread, Strip Mine is an uncommon according to Gather but I'm running it to have a means to deal with problematic utility lands I occasionally encounter in games. Boseiju, Kessik Wolf Run, Volrath's Stronghold are top of that list at the moment. It isn't a factor too often but I like having the option to deal with such things should the need arise. When we finalize the PDH rules and such I will probably drop it for Citadel to make the deck primer ready.
I've found that discard spells really need to be in a deck dedicated to discard. One discard spell will not cut it in most decks. Drawing it late after an opponent or two have been eliminated just makes it worse than a regular draw spell. Too situational. Mind Extraction in Child of Alara is probably the only place that I know of where a single discard spell really shines.
Borderposts are far worse than Guildgates IMO in many ways. Counter magic, Aura of Silence, artifact removal & sweepers all impede your mana development. Borderposts can't be tutored for with Expedition Map where the Guildgates can (it's rare but for arguments sake). And I certainly wouldn't cut anymore land at this point.
RE: Other creature kill spells. Reprisal certainly is a possibility but not Snuff Out. The one advantage Snuff Out has is that it can be transmuted for with Dimir House Guard. Meh.
RE: Extort - Not a fan. Few things seem to put you in the crosshairs faster in a group game. Not worth it.
Sort of. I'm just pointing out that if you go (for instance) :
- Sanctum Gargoyle
- Executioner's Capsule
+ Brainspoil
+ Reprisal
You get more recursion "outs" to your instants and more instants to go with the appropriate recursion - less risk of a missmatch, without really diluting (rather increasing) overall card quality.
The compromise of course is reduced versatility for Trinket Mage, but really - if you don't feel a need to run Snuff Out just for Dimir House Guard, you shouldn't need to run Capsule/Spellbomb just for Trinket Mage. These trinkets have been tested a lot in Child of Alara and found lacking (the lack of green and red in your list shouldn't impact this significantly). I see Trinket Mage more as a souped up Pilgrim's Eye with more land options through Expedition Map and Wayfarer's Bauble AND the ability to go for Nihil Spellbomb. If Pilgrim's Eye is worth it (and I thought it was stellar in Mistmeadow Witch), then surely so is Trinket Mage - with or without artifact based removal.
I'm just having a hard time seeing what you're loosing if you go with the more focused instant route over the artifact recursion. For each suboptimal artifact, there is a better instant, and the artifact recursion can be replaced with more/better creature/instant recursion (or tutors for it). I rely on Sanctum Gargoyle and friends in Vizkopa Guildmage, but that's only because I CAN'T recur instants/sorceries in it. After building several PDH decks, a rule of thumb has emerged: 3 recursion categories is best. Vizkopa has creatures, artifacts, enchantments. MmW has instant, sorcery, enchantment. I think you should go with creatures, instant, sorcery (pretty much what most CoA players are doing also, with the exception of the odd Reclaim).
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In CoA the deck aims to have every creature kill card in it be able to hit Child if needed which is why Executioner's Capsule doesn't make the cut there but AEther Spellbomb is in d0su's current list.
The crux of the argument comes down to: "Is running Trinket Mage as a souped up Pilgrim's Eye is sufficient?" and I'm fighting with my instincts that say no. While Pilgrim's Eye was good in the initial build of this deck I always found it lacking late game when I already had my mana squared away. That is the main reason I want keep the trinkets.
For now I think it comes down to personal preference and what I'm familiar playing with. My current build 'feels' safe. To me anyway. I can't articulate it any better than that and I doubt any amount of verbose pontification or counterpoints are going to sway your view on the matter. I think I spent more time trying to craft this reply than did playing the deck last night. And I played for hours. I know these replies probably come off as combative but I do enjoy these discussions. At times I feel like I'm defending a dissertation or some scientific paper.
Finally, your recursion rule of thumb seems sound but I would argue that the instants/sorceries should probably be lumped together as one category. Even when a deck has access to both forms of recursion it's rare you see the likes of Deja Vu or Anarchist being played.
You do know that it is the other way around right? Lumping Snuff Out in with Capsule is a little bit of a stretch. Capsule falls short because it cost 3 mana. Snuff out cost 4 life nearly all the time (except then you get low on life) and 3 mana is worth more than 4 life in most cases.
Btw. have you tried extort? Online atleast people do not like you using it, sure, but most seems to take it as neusiance and not a real problem. You get somewhat more into the crosshire with it, sure, but the power it offers is generally worth it, for me atleast.
I believe that the difference in turns between some player loses (or the start of the game) until the next player loses becomes shorter and shorter as more players goes away. Also, I would believe that you, playing a control deck, has a large advantage then you are up against fewer players. Thus, I would focus on cards which are good early on. Syphon mind is one of the best cards early in larger multiplayer games. The discard aspect is nice but is not why I think you should play the card. The card is awesome with 3 oppeonts, better than most with 2 and fairly bad in duels (on the other hand it still cantrips and you might have too much mana at that point).
I would rather not pay life for a creature kill spell if I can help it. In that regard Executioner's Capsule costs less than Snuff Out. And Faith's Fetters is a much more versatile target for Dimir House Guard.
Extort would probably better served in a deck designed around it rather than attempting to shoehorn it into this one. I have played in multiplayer match ups against Extort cards & they end up getting their owner's in trouble. Yes they gain life & that buys them time but it doesn't always counteract the hate that comes their way as a result.
//EDIT: After a few more games this week I finally decided to cut Rhystic Study in favor of returning Pilgrim's Eye to the list. While neither are amazing top decks late game, Pilgrim's Eye has a distinct advantage early when the deck is still setting up its mana. Study was never something I'd tutor for or run out on turn three but Pilgrim's Eye certainly is. As Urdjur pointed out, Rhystic Study is best combined with other taxing effects which this deck isn't doing. I've never been disappointed to see Pilgrim's Eye in my opening hand so we'll see how it works out.
Yeah, I need a card that says "Destoy all ZombieShakes' Swamps so he cant kill Sigarda". Haven't found it yet. =/
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
For Lists, Click Here
EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
Thanks! I did look at it when it came out but quickly came to the decision that it didn't seem as good as Divination most of the time. Swinging and missing is a real possibility and that can suck. Even more so if you're forced to put needed cards on the bottom of your library.
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EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
So even in a deck that supports it, Uncovered Clues will be much worse than a simple Divination (in itself a card that doesn't measure up for most non mono blue PDH lists) fully 31% of the time. If filtering for business is desired, then it's better the rest of the time, but most Ux PDH decks will actually want to draw land with their draw spells until turn 10 or so at least. And at that point, it doesn't really matter if you pay an extra mana for Foresee or Deep Analysis instead - much less risky card choices and more useful early game too.
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I spent of a lot of time recently defending many of the cards I cut. The playgroups I play in have gotten to a point where additional artifact & enchantment removal have become necessary and I had to make the hard choice of cutting several pet cards to make that happen. The additional draw spells will help the deck find what it needs for the given situation.
TL;DR: Urdjur was right. Again. :|
Out:
- Sanctum Gargoyle
- Courier's Capsule
- AEther Spellbomb
- Executioner's Capsule
- Death Denied
- Rend Flesh
IN:The new list in full:
1 Merieke Ri Berit
//Creatures 16
1 Vedalken Æthermage
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Rimewind Taskmage
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Crypt Rats
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Gravedigger
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Archaeomancer
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Scrivener
1 Mulldrifter
1 Twisted Abomination
//Card Draw & Search 12
1 Brainstorm
1 Impulse
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Compulsive Research
1 Read the Bones
1 Foresee
1 Deep Analysis
1 Rush of Knowledge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Eyeblight's Ending
1 Murder
1 Unmake
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Shred Memory
1 Revoke Existence
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Dust to Dust
1 Patrician's Scorn
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Echoing Truth
1 Capsize
1 Freed from the Real
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Dawn Charm
//Recursion 5
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Grim Harvest
1 Grim Discovery
1 Mine Excavation
1 Remember the Fallen
//Countermagic 7
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Perplex
1 Traumatic Visions
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Expedition Map
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Darksteel Ingot
//Land 36
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Esper Panorama
1 Command Tower
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Rupture Spire
1 Azorius Guildgate
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Ancient Den
1 Halimar Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Strip Mine
2 Snow-Covered Plains
6 Snow-Covered Swamp
13 Snow-Covered Island
Deckstats.net list minus the commander: http://deck.tk/9XtF22G2