Thanks for your answer about the Goblin, Overheat. Don't agree with the usefulness of it, but it dies to CoA and that's it, so it is meh in this deck, I agree. Even more if you consider spells like Terminate, Counterspell, Unmake, etc. don't have colorless mana in their casting cost. So it's more meh (meher? :D)
I will update my build taking yours (and my current deck ) as a start. Will post mine here when I finish. But I liked the 10 Guildgates and no more CIPTs. Looks straight enough.
So here I am trying to update the OP on a computer that forces me to use Internet Explorer. The more I try to fix the formatting, the more it screws it up. Wow I hate this browser.
I am going to give up for now; please bear with me and put up with the garbage on the first page until lunch tomorrow.
So here I am trying to update the OP on a computer that forces me to use Internet Explorer. The more I try to fix the formatting, the more it screws it up. Wow I hate this browser.
I am going to give up for now; please bear with me and put up with the garbage on the first page until lunch tomorrow.
So obviously I didn't get to fix the OP today. But Overheat, I love your inclusion of Devour Flesh. I will follow suit and make the upgrade from Diabolic Edict.
So obviously I didn't get to fix the OP today. But Overheat, I love your inclusion of Devour Flesh. I will follow suit and make the upgrade from Diabolic Edict.
how is it an "upgrade" the players gains life in addition to sacing a dude.
I am very happy that there is still interest in this deck. With the variant section full of "pauper" EDH decks, it is nice to have one thread devoted to hanging with real decks and not just running Craw Wurms into each other ;). Playing this deck teaches what is actually important about winning a game of multiplayer Magic. It is not about the huge bombs, but about resource management...
Agreed. There's also the added satisfaction when your opponents realize you're running nothing but commons.
Not only do you usually target yourself with Diabolic Edict, but it also provides some political leverage. You will win with general damage 19 times out of 20, so life totals of your opponents do not matter for you, while the ability to gain 6 is much appreciated.
On a completely unrelated note, the foil for it is much cheaper.
So obviously I didn't get to fix the OP today. But Overheat, I love your inclusion of Devour Flesh. I will follow suit and make the upgrade from Diabolic Edict.
You got it, sir, although you will have to wait until tomorrow. I realized that when you go to edit a post in Internet Explorer, IE will try to parse the BBCode and format the stuff inside the text box, which results in it sprinkling line breaks, [ CENTER], and [ /CENTER] tags all over the place. What the heck? It can't even do an impression of Notepad. What a piece of garbage.
Just noticed yesterday was the two year anniversary of this thread!
Congrats d0su on all the dreams you have helped to crush and inspiring others to battle with commons!
(...in America)
Hey, that's actually pretty exciting news! Happy birthday to us! in America
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EDIT
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I fixed the decklists and rewrote/fix the next section of the Primer-To-Be. I am also going to transition all of the verbage away from "EDH/General" to "Commander/commander" for the sake of consistency. I am excited to be back in the game.
You got it, sir, although you will have to wait until tomorrow. I realized that when you go to edit a post in Internet Explorer, IE will try to parse the BBCode and format the stuff inside the text box, which results in it sprinkling line breaks, [ CENTER], and [ /CENTER] tags all over the place. What the heck? It can't even do an impression of Notepad. What a piece of garbage.
Hey, that's actually pretty exciting news! Happy birthday to us! in America
-----
EDIT
-----
I fixed the decklists and rewrote/fix the next section of the Primer-To-Be. I am also going to transition all of the verbage away from "EDH/General" to "Commander/commander" for the sake of consistency. I am excited to be back in the game.
Welcome back to Team Twoforone. Also, in the section about uncommon generals, you recommended Plague Rats, I think you mean Crypt Rats.
Welcome back to Team Twoforone. Also, in the section about uncommon generals, you recommended Plague Rats, I think you mean Crypt Rats.
Nope, everyone should add Plague Rats. Like Mental Misstep, an increase in the popularity of Plague Rats leads to a further increase in popularity. If everyone has one, it is basically a Phyrexian Negator without a drawback.
You seem to have cut Death Denied for Reaping the Graves. (Death Denied is still mentioned as one of the most important cards in the deck in the blurb below the decklist, so you may want to fix that along with your rat problem
Anyway, this decision touches a question I'm wrestling with now when creating a BW pauper list: How does the instant/sorcery creature recursion stack up against Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp? It seems to me that the ETB dudes can only form an engine with Capsize or an additional instant recursion ETB dude and Ghostly Flicker. Pound for pound, they are rather bad a recurring creatures compared to Death Denied.
Basically, it seems more efficient to have more efficient instants and sorceries that recur creatures, some of which are self-contained engines in a single card, than to have creatures that recur creatures - especially with so many ways to recur instants and sorceries. Why would you rather cut Death Denied than Gravedigger?
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You seem to have cut Death Denied for Reaping the Graves. (Death Denied is still mentioned as one of the most important cards in the deck in the blurb below the decklist, so you may want to fix that along with your rat problem
Anyway, this decision touches a question I'm wrestling with now when creating a BW pauper list: How does the instant/sorcery creature recursion stack up against Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp? It seems to me that the ETB dudes can only form an engine with Capsize or an additional instant recursion ETB dude and Ghostly Flicker. Pound for pound, they are rather bad a recurring creatures compared to Death Denied.
Basically, it seems more efficient to have more efficient instants and sorceries that recur creatures, some of which are self-contained engines in a single card, than to have creatures that recur creatures - especially with so many ways to recur instants and sorceries. Why would you rather cut Death Denied than Gravedigger?
Recurring instants and sorceries is a bit tougher than you make it out to be. There are three creatures that will recur both, and they cost 4 or 5 mana. But the real reason to run Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp is to get a creature back for cheap without having to do the whole loop thing. Early game before you are set up and are constricted on mana, getting back Child a turn or two earlier is really important. Besides, what is there other than Grim, Death Denied, and Disturbed Burial? Not everything has to be an engine, they are just cheap and efficient.
The more I look at the BU recursion loop, the more I think it essentially breaks the pauper format. Without blue, I am not sure any other pauper deck is going to be able to break this once the BU deck gets going. I have faced it many times and I have not been able to beat this end game after this loop is set up even with my most expensive combo decks.
Recurring instants and sorceries is a bit tougher than you make it out to be. There are three creatures that will recur both, and they cost 4 or 5 mana. But the real reason to run Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp is to get a creature back for cheap without having to do the whole loop thing. Early game before you are set up and are constricted on mana, getting back Child a turn or two earlier is really important. Besides, what is there other than Grim, Death Denied, and Disturbed Burial? Not everything has to be an engine, they are just cheap and efficient.
But you could get a creature back for cheaper if you didn't need the effect on a stick. Assumming only access to black, I would run:
Grim Harvest
Disturbed Burial
Death Denied
Reaping the Graves
Urborg Uprising
before considering Imp or Gravedigger. Depending on build, additional colors to choose from etc. other options could be of interest too. As for Gravedigger, the 2/2 body isn't relevant and it's 4 mana - if the deck is really pressed for mana, almost ANY instant/sorcery spell is better. IMO, the ETB creature recursion is only relevant if you have a bounce/blink engine. Recurring OTHER card types (as in, non-creatures) with creatures is highly relevant, because it expands the use of your black creature recursion: recur your creatures so that they may recur actually useful spells. Recurring Gravedigger or Imp makes no sense - then you might as well recur the creature with the effect you're actually interested in instead. So unless you have a way to abuse these with Ghostly Flicker or the immensly mana-ineffecient Capsize alternative, they are just overcosted recursion effects.
The more I look at the bu recursion loop, the more I think it essentially breaks the pauper format. Without blue, I am not sure any other pauper deck is going to be able to break this once the bu deck gets going. I have faced it many times and I have not been able to beat this end game after this loop is set up even with my most expensive combo decks.
Which loop are you refering too? Gravedigger + bounce/blink or the Death Denied + Archaeomancer type? Monoblack pretty much has access to the second type on its own with Grim/Disturbed and UW is better than UB on the first. I agree that UB can set up difficult to disrupt recursion loops though.
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But you could get a creature back for cheaper if you didn't need the effect on a stick. Assumming only access to black, I would run:
Grim Harvest
Disturbed Burial
Death Denied
Reaping the Graves
Urborg Uprising
before considering Imp or Gravedigger. Depending on build, additional colors to choose from etc. other options could be of interest too. As for Gravedigger, the 2/2 body isn't relevant and it's 4 mana - if the deck is really pressed for mana, almost ANY instant/sorcery spell is better. IMO, the ETB creature recursion is only relevant if you have a bounce/blink engine. Recurring OTHER card types (as in, non-creatures) with creatures is highly relevant, because it expands the use of your black creature recursion: recur your creatures so that they may recur actually useful spells. Recurring Gravedigger or Imp makes no sense - then you might as well recur the creature with the effect you're actually interested in instead. So unless you have a way to abuse these with Ghostly Flicker or the immensly mana-ineffecient Capsize alternative, they are just overcosted recursion effects.
Which loop are you refering too? Gravedigger + bounce/blink or the Death Denied + Archaeomancer type? Monoblack pretty much has access to the second type on its own with Grim/Disturbed and UW is better than UB on the first. I agree that UB can set up difficult to disrupt recursion loops though.
They also block and buy you time. And we are playing most of the spell versions anyway.
I'm not out to slay sacred cows - it's just that building a BW PDH deck (Vizkopa Guildmage) has opened my eyes to the fact that these dudes aren't all that without blue bounce/flickering. In this deck, they are great with Ghostly Flicker and an instant recursion bear. They are also decent with Capsize unless you have better things to do with it. What I am questioning though, even in this deck, is cutting Death Denied before them.
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A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe! "At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted." [Click here for the articles!]
I'm not out to slay sacred cows - it's just that building a BW PDH deck (Vizkopa Guildmage) has opened my eyes to the fact that these dudes aren't all that without blue bounce/flickering. In this deck, they are great with Ghostly Flicker and an instant recursion bear. They are also decent with Capsize unless you have better things to do with it. What I am questioning though, even in this deck, is cutting Death Denied before them.
I feel like you are underestimating the ability to represent board presence and chump block. Having a field of a few random guys is actually quite a deterrent against random attacks from Kaalia, Sun Titan, or players that want to get in some general damage. I wouldn't cut Sea Gate Oracle to add Deep Analysis or Impulse, for example (though Impulse is reaaallly good, I would cut something else first).
I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, because Death Denied is for sure stronger than Gravedigger, but how many of these effects do we really need? If we have access to one engine, we don't need another unless the new engine is an upgrade. Out of Capsize, Ghostly Flicker, Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial, Death Denied, and Reaping the Graves, I decided Disturbed Burial was the one I tutored for the least. Reaping the Graves replaced it in my list because it is more resilient to countermagic and has a different CMC from Disturbed Burial and Grim Harvest.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
Quote from urdjur »
You seem to have cut Death Denied for Reaping the Graves. (Death Denied is still mentioned as one of the most important cards in the deck in the blurb below the decklist, so you may want to fix that along with your rat problem
Yep, I am reformatting and rewriting the OP section by section, and that section is next.
Can't forget the use the black Gravediggers have with those of us who play Cavern Harpy. Cavern Harpy is the best chump blocker too, and also works with the instant/sorc recursion guys.
Played this deck in Commander Pod 3 at GP Charlotte. The moral of the story is this deck is considerably more absurd now than it was in the past, but I need more practice with Ghostly Flicker. Game report coming tonight!
Edit: okay, so not tonight. Soon. I know you are all anxious to hear how I scrubbed out.
I will update my build taking yours (and my current deck ) as a start. Will post mine here when I finish. But I liked the 10 Guildgates and no more CIPTs. Looks straight enough.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
I am going to give up for now; please bear with me and put up with the garbage on the first page until lunch tomorrow.
:'(
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Thanks, glad to see you back!
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
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how is it an "upgrade" the players gains life in addition to sacing a dude.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Typically you target yourself & sac Child of Alara.
Agreed. There's also the added satisfaction when your opponents realize you're running nothing but commons.
On a completely unrelated note, the foil for it is much cheaper.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Hey d0su, when will you post it?
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
How about now? I just posted my current decklist and fixed some of the formatting. Now, I have to get back to work!
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Congrats d0su on all the dreams you have helped to crush and inspiring others to battle with commons!
(...in America)
Now just update mine
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
You got it, sir, although you will have to wait until tomorrow. I realized that when you go to edit a post in Internet Explorer, IE will try to parse the BBCode and format the stuff inside the text box, which results in it sprinkling line breaks, [ CENTER], and [ /CENTER] tags all over the place. What the heck? It can't even do an impression of Notepad. What a piece of garbage.
Hey, that's actually pretty exciting news! Happy birthday to us! in America
-----
EDIT
-----
I fixed the decklists and rewrote/fix the next section of the Primer-To-Be. I am also going to transition all of the verbage away from "EDH/General" to "Commander/commander" for the sake of consistency. I am excited to be back in the game.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
Welcome back to Team Twoforone. Also, in the section about uncommon generals, you recommended Plague Rats, I think you mean Crypt Rats.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Nope, everyone should add Plague Rats. Like Mental Misstep, an increase in the popularity of Plague Rats leads to a further increase in popularity. If everyone has one, it is basically a Phyrexian Negator without a drawback.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
Anyway, this decision touches a question I'm wrestling with now when creating a BW pauper list: How does the instant/sorcery creature recursion stack up against Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp? It seems to me that the ETB dudes can only form an engine with Capsize or an additional instant recursion ETB dude and Ghostly Flicker. Pound for pound, they are rather bad a recurring creatures compared to Death Denied.
Basically, it seems more efficient to have more efficient instants and sorceries that recur creatures, some of which are self-contained engines in a single card, than to have creatures that recur creatures - especially with so many ways to recur instants and sorceries. Why would you rather cut Death Denied than Gravedigger?
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
Recurring instants and sorceries is a bit tougher than you make it out to be. There are three creatures that will recur both, and they cost 4 or 5 mana. But the real reason to run Gravedigger and Cadaver Imp is to get a creature back for cheap without having to do the whole loop thing. Early game before you are set up and are constricted on mana, getting back Child a turn or two earlier is really important. Besides, what is there other than Grim, Death Denied, and Disturbed Burial? Not everything has to be an engine, they are just cheap and efficient.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
But you could get a creature back for cheaper if you didn't need the effect on a stick. Assumming only access to black, I would run:
Grim Harvest
Disturbed Burial
Death Denied
Reaping the Graves
Urborg Uprising
before considering Imp or Gravedigger. Depending on build, additional colors to choose from etc. other options could be of interest too. As for Gravedigger, the 2/2 body isn't relevant and it's 4 mana - if the deck is really pressed for mana, almost ANY instant/sorcery spell is better. IMO, the ETB creature recursion is only relevant if you have a bounce/blink engine. Recurring OTHER card types (as in, non-creatures) with creatures is highly relevant, because it expands the use of your black creature recursion: recur your creatures so that they may recur actually useful spells. Recurring Gravedigger or Imp makes no sense - then you might as well recur the creature with the effect you're actually interested in instead. So unless you have a way to abuse these with Ghostly Flicker or the immensly mana-ineffecient Capsize alternative, they are just overcosted recursion effects.
Which loop are you refering too? Gravedigger + bounce/blink or the Death Denied + Archaeomancer type? Monoblack pretty much has access to the second type on its own with Grim/Disturbed and UW is better than UB on the first. I agree that UB can set up difficult to disrupt recursion loops though.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
This allows you to basically recur removal or counter magic indefinitely as mana allows.
I have lost to this loop so many times, and looking at my current deck, it will also fold to this.
Now granted I might be able to build a deck to break this, but it would be so weak to anything else it would never make it to end game.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
They also block and buy you time. And we are playing most of the spell versions anyway.
Please don't go slaying our sacred cows. :,(
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
I feel like you are underestimating the ability to represent board presence and chump block. Having a field of a few random guys is actually quite a deterrent against random attacks from Kaalia, Sun Titan, or players that want to get in some general damage. I wouldn't cut Sea Gate Oracle to add Deep Analysis or Impulse, for example (though Impulse is reaaallly good, I would cut something else first).
I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, because Death Denied is for sure stronger than Gravedigger, but how many of these effects do we really need? If we have access to one engine, we don't need another unless the new engine is an upgrade. Out of Capsize, Ghostly Flicker, Grim Harvest, Disturbed Burial, Death Denied, and Reaping the Graves, I decided Disturbed Burial was the one I tutored for the least. Reaping the Graves replaced it in my list because it is more resilient to countermagic and has a different CMC from Disturbed Burial and Grim Harvest.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
Yep, I am reformatting and rewriting the OP section by section, and that section is next.
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Edit: okay, so not tonight. Soon. I know you are all anxious to hear how I scrubbed out.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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