So please help me! I started playing Tiny Leaders today and this is my first deck. I have been playing edh exclusively for years and this is my first foray back into competitive formats. I love this deck because it is exactly the kind of old school thing I was playing back in my revised days when I was a competitive player. Please bear with me as I explain what I am looking for and how I've gotten here.
Deck building has been a difficult adjustment for me at first as I feel like every cut weakens the deck in one facet or another. I fear that I may have crossed the line into to much utility with having my cards serve multiple functions. I really would like to have a land destruction sub theme as well but after getting my first few games into today i'm not sure how effective that would be as 2/3 matches I played where against decks that had huge amounts of land or a lot of ramp. I am also considering a stax theme.
So what would you do to make this the most vicious MBC out there? I know a lot of tuning is meta dependent, I have very few people to play with but those that I do have a large number of decks. Today I lost to Merieke Ri Berit Mill (1-2), Alesha, Who Smiles at Death Super efficient aggro (1-2) and won against Mikaeus, the Lunarch Token Swarm (2-0). In short it looks like the meta I am facing is everything under the sun, just about anything competitive.
So here are my thoughts. It seems like hitting discard, hopefully discard that goes 2 for 1 early in the game is critical. Ideally I want a discard 1st and 2nd turn, and ideally something after that driven by a permanent or larger spells. Obviously my balance of removal has to be right to stabilize anything that slips through. From there work on digging for wincons, grinding out card advantage through the mid - late game.
It seems like I'm only getting the discard I need maybe 50/60 % of the time though in my opening hands, even with aggressive mulligening. I feel like I need more discard in the 1 and 2 cmc area but don't know where to cut. With all the draw depending on life the nominal amount of life gain seems important enough to keep.
So as you can see a lot of these cards serve multiple functions depending on what I need out of them. Here is a quick breakdown of how many cards are serving what purpose in an effort to tune it properly. Any ideas on where the discard should be to try to make sure I'm seeing three discard spells (or two high quality )hopefully on curve by turn 4/5, also looking for cross purpose utility wherever possible.
Sygg is a good wall / intermittent card draw, once i get momentum rolling his card per turn can really help it, occasionally he even contributes to it by adding one damage on top of another creatures 2. Maybeboard coming soon, also please help with the SB
Mana - I rly need to hit those first 3 land drops and get BB on turn 2. I have drawn a lot of hands on tappedout and it seems like 1 more land is right, can't cut anything though! I can't overstate how important having consistent, explosive starts are for this archetype and it all starts here. If I do cut something it should be a 3 drop to lower the curve, HELP!!
Swamp - makes it all happen, I have seen some snow hate so unnecessary and extra planer lens seems to slow / delicate. Amazing when lake of the dead is 'used properly'. Some cards do care about swamps, my first choice to add a land, statistically I could be ok with something colorless but I rly feel like being safe about those first 3 land drops is important. Thoughts?
Arcane Lighthouse seems like it should be my goto utility land, at least sb but I rly feel like I have enough non targeted removal to be safe.
Dust bowl / wasteland - still pretty new but I know that 20/20 avatars are a thing. Do these even stop that though? Esp with all the recursion.
Dark Ritual - this was the last card cut in v1.0. Can't justify it without one more land first, then what aspect of my game plan could afford to suffer for this? So much potential for early game God hands though, thoughts?
Anything else mana related? Like I said I'm pretty unexperinced in actual games in the format, what's the right number of lands?
Discard - Here is the big one, I think I should probably go from 13 to 15 to assure I'm seeing what I want to early game. What can suffer though? Here is a big list of possible swaps and includes, input please!
Bog Down missed this the first time around, will replace mind rot maybe this should be stupor? the slot it self though could be on the chopping block.
opression,words of waste - I rly like these 2 perments, A LOT, 3 cmc is to tight to not have it replace something. These could really help with run away card draw.
mindstab thrill, hollow Spector - these guys are good if they hit but are 3 cmc and will they hit or survive? Turn 4 swing is slow already here for something not guaranteed to cause a discard, I could be wrong though.
pulse of dross - although mana intensive I feel like this has a lot of mid to late game potential. With my list as it is though I "feel" like repeatable discard in the form of a permanent is probally better.
stronghold rats -potential! Soft but these guys should get thru.
sword of feast and famine - wow I thought this was banned, to good not to run, does everything I need and sygg can always hold it.
cabal interrogator - herm, repeatable. Very stage of the game dependent, possibly expensive but this guy could still put in some work.
mind shatter - should be mind twist but that's banned, not sure this one lives up to it.
scepter of fugue I think this is probally my number one pick for a permanent to add. No weak body
thoughtseize - this is probally going in, think it will replace despise, maybe not though, keeping both would help to lower the curve.
blackmail - I do need to lower the curve but this is barley a contender.
cry of contrition - I will run this over blackmail. As much as I would like I don't see both making it even though 1 cmc discards are super important to assure I draw into early game.
Mind peel - this will probably replace despise. At least this will always hit something in an unknown meta and it has late game upside.
duress - sb maybe? Room is so tight I'm to scared this will fizzle.
isochron scepter - maybe I can fiddle with the number of instants? Idk, thoughts on number of instants in the deck to make it worth while.
Removal - finally an aspect of this deck that I'm happy with. Only real ideas I have is deciding if royal assassin should be main board or sb, I rly feel like he should be in here though. Also any ideas on comprable instants for isochron scepter abuse.
Draw - same idea, anything that can be switched to an instant? Is this an area to consider cutting? I'm having a very hard time deciding.
Win Cons - Pretty happy here, possible cuts on some of these to make the deck more consistent.
SideBoard - Open to suggestions, not entirely in love with lifebane zombie. Also hoping for advice on fighting mill, currently have 2 cards, maybe 3 is the right number. Seems strong enough to be a prevalent deck.
Funeral charm is killer! Double duty as removal is just to good not to have. Piracy charm is also great but I would need more than one card to justify running blue. Suggestions for blue splash? And the biggie what would you cut to get it in there.
Yay, finallY wrapped up my maybe board. I know that these posts are full of questions but please try to help where u can. I have thus far built this deck in a vacuum And my playtesting oppertunites are limited.
Thx y'all, I'll post up any updates.
bump, hopin for some help from those with more experience in the format. I know that I'm asking a ton of questions throughout the post but any suggestions are welcome
15 Swamp
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Lake of the Dead
Artifact (1)
1 The Rack
Creature (6)
1 Nyxathid
1 Cunning Lethemancer
1 Nezumi Shortfang
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
Planeswalker (1)
1 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantment (4)
1 Shrieking Affliction
1 Quest for the Nihil Stone
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Underworld Connections
Instant (4)
1 Funeral Charm
1 Smother
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Raven's Crime
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Wrench Mind
1 Mire's Toll
1 Despise
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Smallpox
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Drain Life
1 Consume Spirit
1 Profane Command
1 Read the Bones
1 Damnable Pact
1 Mind Rot
Commander (1)
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
1x Drown in Sorrow
1x Engineered Plague
1x Lifebane Zombie
1x Pithing Needle
1x Perish
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Sadistic Sacrament
1x Cranial Archive
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Virtue's Ruin
DeckList By Function
15 Swamp
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Lake of the Dead
WinCons (Damage)
1 Nyxathid
1 Cunning Lethemancer (Discard)
1 Nezumi Shortfang (Discard)
1 Hypnotic Specter (Discard)
1 Vampire Nighthawk (Defense / LifeGain)
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir (removal)
1 The Rack
1 Shrieking Affliction
1 Quest for the Nihil Stone
1 Profane Command (Removal)
1 Funeral Charm (Removal)
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Raven's Crime
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Wrench Mind
1 Mire's Toll
1 Despise
1 Mind Rot
1 Liliana of the Veil (Removal)
Draw
1 Read the Bones
1 Damnable Pact
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Underworld Connections
1 Skeletal Scrying (Damage)
1 Drain Life (Damage / LifeGain)
1 Consume Spirit (Damage / LifeGain)
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Smallpox (Discard)
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Smother
1 Tribute to Hunger (LifeGain)
Commander
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
1x Drown in Sorrow (swarms / aggro)
1x Engineered Plague (swarms / aggro)
1x Lifebane Zombie (tokens / elves)
1x Pithing Needle (To Useful not to have once i know what to hit)
1x Perish (elves)
1x Elixir of Immortality (mill)
1x Sadistic Sacrament (mill / combo)
1x Cranial Archive (mill)
1x Marsh Casualties (swarms / aggro)
1x Virtue's Ruin (token swarm)
So please help me! I started playing Tiny Leaders today and this is my first deck. I have been playing edh exclusively for years and this is my first foray back into competitive formats. I love this deck because it is exactly the kind of old school thing I was playing back in my revised days when I was a competitive player. Please bear with me as I explain what I am looking for and how I've gotten here.
Deck building has been a difficult adjustment for me at first as I feel like every cut weakens the deck in one facet or another. I fear that I may have crossed the line into to much utility with having my cards serve multiple functions. I really would like to have a land destruction sub theme as well but after getting my first few games into today i'm not sure how effective that would be as 2/3 matches I played where against decks that had huge amounts of land or a lot of ramp. I am also considering a stax theme.
So what would you do to make this the most vicious MBC out there? I know a lot of tuning is meta dependent, I have very few people to play with but those that I do have a large number of decks. Today I lost to Merieke Ri Berit Mill (1-2), Alesha, Who Smiles at Death Super efficient aggro (1-2) and won against Mikaeus, the Lunarch Token Swarm (2-0). In short it looks like the meta I am facing is everything under the sun, just about anything competitive.
So here are my thoughts. It seems like hitting discard, hopefully discard that goes 2 for 1 early in the game is critical. Ideally I want a discard 1st and 2nd turn, and ideally something after that driven by a permanent or larger spells. Obviously my balance of removal has to be right to stabilize anything that slips through. From there work on digging for wincons, grinding out card advantage through the mid - late game.
It seems like I'm only getting the discard I need maybe 50/60 % of the time though in my opening hands, even with aggressive mulligening. I feel like I need more discard in the 1 and 2 cmc area but don't know where to cut. With all the draw depending on life the nominal amount of life gain seems important enough to keep.
So as you can see a lot of these cards serve multiple functions depending on what I need out of them. Here is a quick breakdown of how many cards are serving what purpose in an effort to tune it properly. Any ideas on where the discard should be to try to make sure I'm seeing three discard spells (or two high quality )hopefully on curve by turn 4/5, also looking for cross purpose utility wherever possible.
Mana (18)
Damage / Wincons (12)
Discard (13)
Draw (5)
Removal (11)
LifeGain (4)
Sygg is a good wall / intermittent card draw, once i get momentum rolling his card per turn can really help it, occasionally he even contributes to it by adding one damage on top of another creatures 2. Maybeboard coming soon, also please help with the SB
1x Drown in Sorrow (swarms / aggro)
1x Engineered Plague (swarms / aggro)
1x Lifebane Zombie (tokens / elves)
1x Pithing Needle (To Useful not to have once i know what to hit)
1x Perish (elves)
1x Elixir of Immortality (mill)
1x Sadistic Sacrament (mill / combo)
1x Cranial Archive (mill)
1x Marsh Casualties (swarms / aggro)
1x Virtue's Ruin (token swarm)
Mana - I rly need to hit those first 3 land drops and get BB on turn 2. I have drawn a lot of hands on tappedout and it seems like 1 more land is right, can't cut anything though! I can't overstate how important having consistent, explosive starts are for this archetype and it all starts here. If I do cut something it should be a 3 drop to lower the curve, HELP!!
Arcane Lighthouse seems like it should be my goto utility land, at least sb but I rly feel like I have enough non targeted removal to be safe.
Dust bowl / wasteland - still pretty new but I know that 20/20 avatars are a thing. Do these even stop that though? Esp with all the recursion.
Dark Ritual - this was the last card cut in v1.0. Can't justify it without one more land first, then what aspect of my game plan could afford to suffer for this? So much potential for early game God hands though, thoughts?
Anything else mana related? Like I said I'm pretty unexperinced in actual games in the format, what's the right number of lands?
Discard - Here is the big one, I think I should probably go from 13 to 15 to assure I'm seeing what I want to early game. What can suffer though? Here is a big list of possible swaps and includes, input please!
opression,words of waste - I rly like these 2 perments, A LOT, 3 cmc is to tight to not have it replace something. These could really help with run away card draw.
bottomless pit - see above, don't like it as much But still good better to not have this on a body?cunning lethemancer
mindstab thrill, hollow Spector - these guys are good if they hit but are 3 cmc and will they hit or survive? Turn 4 swing is slow already here for something not guaranteed to cause a discard, I could be wrong though.
pulse of dross - although mana intensive I feel like this has a lot of mid to late game potential. With my list as it is though I "feel" like repeatable discard in the form of a permanent is probally better.
stronghold rats -potential! Soft but these guys should get thru.
sword of feast and famine - wow I thought this was banned, to good not to run, does everything I need and sygg can always hold it.
cabal interrogator - herm, repeatable. Very stage of the game dependent, possibly expensive but this guy could still put in some work.
mind shatter - should be mind twist but that's banned, not sure this one lives up to it.
scepter of fugue I think this is probally my number one pick for a permanent to add. No weak body
thoughtseize - this is probally going in, think it will replace despise, maybe not though, keeping both would help to lower the curve.
blackmail - I do need to lower the curve but this is barley a contender.
cry of contrition - I will run this over blackmail. As much as I would like I don't see both making it even though 1 cmc discards are super important to assure I draw into early game.
Mind peel - this will probably replace despise. At least this will always hit something in an unknown meta and it has late game upside.
duress - sb maybe? Room is so tight I'm to scared this will fizzle.
isochron scepter - maybe I can fiddle with the number of instants? Idk, thoughts on number of instants in the deck to make it worth while.
Removal - finally an aspect of this deck that I'm happy with. Only real ideas I have is deciding if royal assassin should be main board or sb, I rly feel like he should be in here though. Also any ideas on comprable instants for isochron scepter abuse.
Draw - same idea, anything that can be switched to an instant? Is this an area to consider cutting? I'm having a very hard time deciding.
Win Cons - Pretty happy here, possible cuts on some of these to make the deck more consistent.
SideBoard - Open to suggestions, not entirely in love with lifebane zombie. Also hoping for advice on fighting mill, currently have 2 cards, maybe 3 is the right number. Seems strong enough to be a prevalent deck.
1x Drown in Sorrow (swarms / aggro)
1x Engineered Plague (swarms / aggro)
1x Lifebane Zombie (tokens / elves)
1x Pithing Needle (To Useful not to have once i know what to hit)
1x Perish (elves)
1x Elixir of Immortality (mill)
1x Sadistic Sacrament (mill / combo)
1x Cranial Archive (mill)
1x Marsh Casualties (swarms / aggro)
1x Virtue's Ruin (token swarm)
Yay, finallY wrapped up my maybe board. I know that these posts are full of questions but please try to help where u can. I have thus far built this deck in a vacuum And my playtesting oppertunites are limited.
Thx y'all, I'll post up any updates.
bump, hopin for some help from those with more experience in the format. I know that I'm asking a ton of questions throughout the post but any suggestions are welcome