I want to make a deck that can outgrow anything my opponent's can realistically put out with 3 mana, so the first card that came to mind was Vorel of the Hull Clade.
I've compiled a list of cards I believe would fit well so far, there's a surprising amount:
*Preferring ramp that can be grown exponentially with Vorel, and avoiding exceedingly expensive (money wise) mana rocks that I know of.
*Don't forget he can double counters on artifacts as well.
*Give // Take is arguably the most powerful card in this build, and one of the main reasons I wanted to run Vorel.
It combo's so well with Chasm Skulker and Lorescale Coatl and can make Gyre Sage into one of the fastest ramps ever - I have a feeling Quest for the Gemblades can accomplish a similar task, but possibly less reliably.
Quickly rack up counters on things and get bigger than anything your opponent can put out. Coupled with a good amount of Ramp and Draw, you can just keep on coming, gradually getting stronger and stronger until eventually you are completely out of reach. Kill spells can cause some problems, but pretty much everything in the deck gets to be a big threat in a few turns - so your opponent better be running a ton of removal to make a dent.
This deck does not have removal, that's not it's focus after all. We do not remove our opponent's creatures - they MUST remove ours, or they die.
This deck is very synergistic, what you need to keep in mind that it functions best with "mini" combo's of 2-3 cards.
Notable Combo's:
-Casting a the "Give" half of Give // Take on your Gyre Sage on turn 3 will allow you to ramp into a very large hydra on turn 4.
-Casting both halves of the same card on Either Lorescale Coatl or Chasm Skulker will not only draw a ton of cards, but also increase their strength substantially.
-A Hardened Scales let's you cast your Hydra's for X=0 and they will still have a counter on them, then you can use Vorel to grow them as big as you need. Work's best with Primordial Hydra (Turn 2 = 1/1, Turn 3 = 3/3, turn 4 = 7/7 .... And that's without Vorel Intervening). The x=0 trick is very relevant when casting Hydra's off of Genesis Wave, so don't forget about it!
-Hardened Scales is your most powerful enchantment. It makes absolutely everything more powerful, if you Genesis Hydra, or use any of the searchers / draw prioritize Hardened scales (circumstances permitting of course). I cannot stress how much of an advantage this provides - your Chasm Skulkers and Lorescale Coatl's grow twice as fast, evolve and heroic are twice as powerful, all your hydra's can be cat for x=0 in a pinch, everything, and I mean everything, gets out of hand very quickly with a hardened scales out.
-Kiora's follower allows double activations of Vorel, and ramps. Alternatively can be used to untap a blocker like Protean Hydra.
-Zameck Guildmage can provide a lot of advantage over the course of a game, his draw ability works best with either Chasm Skulker, Lorescale Coatl, and Protean Hydra. His second ability although not used often does have it's advantages - such as using it in response to Chasm Skulker dying. Same trick can be used with the Oran-Rief, The Vastwood.
-Everflowing Chalice and Astral Cornucopia are the biggest ramp cards in the deck (Gyre Sage may actually be the biggest, but it's easier to remove). The counters on them can be proliferated, as well as doubled by Vorel - they can get out of hand very quickly. If you have a Genesis Wave in hand it may be worth it to purely focus on doubling them for an explosive finish.
-Oran-Rief, The Vastwood can be used to make any creature entering just a little bit bigger (or a lot bigger if you have Hardened scales - see what I mean about it being the most important card). It works well with Chasm Skulker, so it may be worth it to keep it back if you suspect your opponent is about to try to kill the skulker. Alternatively, it works extremely well with Genesis Wave or Genesis Hydra - always leave Oran-Rief untapped when casting Genesis wave or Genesis Hydra, you never know when the extra +1 (or most likely +2) counters will be needed.
-Renegade Krasis is a very unassuming card. Not many people will see how threatening he can be - but I've come to learn from my time in Standard that with Gyre Sage and Genesis Hydra he can provide a powerful explosion of counters from out of nowhere, while accelerating your mana. Genesis Hydra will most of the time evolve him once, and occasionally twice if you activate Zameck Guildmage first (unless he get's bigger than the Genesis Hydra - remember it enters after the card it summons), and he will then place at least 2 counters on everything else that has counters (Imagine if you had a hardened scales and Gyre sage on the field - that would add up to him having 8 counters, and giving 4 counters to everything else. The gyre sage would likely have 8 counters as well). MR TORGUE APPROVES!
-Sage of Hours: Aside from just dumping a bunch of counters on him, then doubling with Vorel to take an extra 1-3 turns there are actually 5 ways you can go infinite with him (Best is if you have hardened scales, otherwise you'll need a lot of mana):
Sage of Hours + Afiya Grove + Hardened Scales + Vorel of the Hull Clade + Kiora's Follower = Afiya Grove will ad 2 counters to the sage, then Vorel will double them +1 for a total of 5 counters. Kiora's Follower untaps Vorel and allows him to put more counters on Afiya grove so it can be used indefinitely. Rinse and repeat every turn. You don't need Kiora's follower - in this case you basically take an extra turn for each counter on Afiya's grove (with a little set up it can easily be 5 or more turns).
Sage of Hours + Clockspinning + Hardened Scales + 8 Mana = Much easier combo to pull of. Clockspinning will add 2 counters (and heroic adds another 2), return it to your hand and recast it for a total of 8 counters. OR:
Sage of Hours + Clockspinning + 12 Mana = If you don't have Hardened Scales, you will need to cast Clockspinning Three times a turn. OR:
Sage of Hours + Clockspinning + Vorel of the Hull Clade + 10 Mana = Without Hardened scales, 10 mana is the lowest amount you will need. You will have to cast clockspinning twice, and then double the counters with Vorel.
At the moment I am looking for a few cards that can evolve my Renegade Krasis by themselves. I am considering Replacing Scute mob and Experiment One in favor of creatures that can allow me to double-evolve Renegade Krasis off of a Genesis Hydra but still provide synergy for the rest of the deck. Any suggestions? (Currently Considering Force of Savagery as I can make it stay out by using Zameck Guildmage first, or Leatherback Baloth just for the power).
*Freaking Wish I could use Copsejack menace!
Also, does anyone think that City of Shadows may be worth using? Vorel could ramp it fairly quickly after an initial investment of one creature. Losing a creature is a pretty big cost though.
-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
Great place to get Anime, Figurines, Comics and Magic The Gathering cards in South Africa: www.heroesofgc.com
Hydra's require mana but you might be able to get away with it because you are planning to use Vorel. I think another card to look at would be Sage of Hours. Oh wait...I get to take another turn. Paring him with Vorel can be a huge game changer. Double his counters to 10. Remove all of them and take two additional turns. Sounds like fun to me.
Will agree that Sage of Hours would be quite enjoyable to watch. Also, where is Kalonian Hydra on that list? He's a doubler for everyone!
And I know it's not the direction you're originally thinking, but I've been able to put together a pretty nasty deck with Vorel, Kiora's Follower, Prophet of Kruphix and Grindclock. Yup. The garbage miller can get nasty with Vorel. Just a thought.
Will agree that Sage of Hours would be quite enjoyable to watch. Also, where is Kalonian Hydra on that list? He's a doubler for everyone!
And I know it's not the direction you're originally thinking, but I've been able to put together a pretty nasty deck with Vorel, Kiora's Follower, Prophet of Kruphix and Grindclock. Yup. The garbage miller can get nasty with Vorel. Just a thought.
Tiny Leaders can only have cards with CMC 3 or less.
As for OP's deck, it looks interesting. The only thing I can add is that I'm not exactly sure how necessary doubling a Hydra's counters is. Most likely, they're going to be larger than everything else anyways, which is why they're so strong in the format. Also, Sol Ring is banned if you follow http://tinyleaders.blogspot.com/p/ban-list.html
New to Tiny leaders aren't you (Newer than me at least)?
In the Tiny Leaders format you have a max CMC on 3 for all your cards - so I can't use Kalonian Hydra or Prophet of Kruphix. Also, Kalonian Hydra is damn expensive. Nevermind, Price seems to have dropped considerably since I last saw it.
Sage of Hours definitely sounds worth it though - but it may be difficult to get him up to 5 on a regular basis.
If the Afiya Grove and Hardened Scales combo works (ie: will Afiya Grove place 2 counters on the creature?) I can actually use it to take up to 3 extra turns (Afiya places 2, then Vorel adds 3, rinse and repeat until the grove is out of counters).
With a bit of setup, by increasing the counters on the Grove a bit beforehand, I could gain a lot of turns out of nowhere.
Considering Tiny leaders have a relatively small deck at only 50 cards - and my Vorel can double it's counters - Grindclock may actually be viable.
Only problem is Tiny leaders will naturally have a more aggressive curve than most decks - so it may be too slow.
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-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
Great place to get Anime, Figurines, Comics and Magic The Gathering cards in South Africa: www.heroesofgc.com
Just remember that if you target Sage of Hours he will get a counter from his heroic mechanic. You might want to look at Bioshift too. You can swing in for damage with a creature that seems small and move all counters from one creature to it and they won't see it coming.
True, but Bioshift is so much better with Corpsejack Menace (which sadly, costs 4 and is out of colour) - I know, I used it in Standard and it was amazing.
It could also shift the power to an unblocked creature so it may make a neat combat trick.
Does anyone have any idea's on what cards I can remove from the list to bring it down to a useable 50 card deck?
At the moment the deck would have to be 70+ cards, so it needs a pretty big diet and optimization.
I can't gauge the effectiveness of non-standard cards due to my low experience outside of Standard, so any criticisms would be appreciated.
-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
Great place to get Anime, Figurines, Comics and Magic The Gathering cards in South Africa: www.heroesofgc.com
How much mana are you planning to work with? It will give me a better perspective of what you need and what you might not need. Are you wanting a beat down deck? A conbat trick deck? You have many options because counters are fun to play with.
Thanks, didn't even see Gilder Bairn.
Wouldn't it be somewhat difficult to use his ability though (since you'll have to tap him somehow first)?
Sol Ring's already been removed.
@Andymadeit
Ideally I'd like to be able to cast my Hydra's for X=6 or more in a relatively short number of turns.
I doubt any opponent will be able to get creatures bigger than 6/6's and if so i can always use Vorel to increase their strength.
Land-Wise I have on clue as to how much would be needed for a 50 card deck. If I were to average it out based on a 60-card deck I would probably run around 20 lands.
I'm not looking for a Combat Trick deck - what I want this deck to do is too slowly spiral out of control.
It needs to have it's creatures grow bigger and bigger, with a decent amount of card advantage, to the point of where nothing any opponent can realistically play for 3 mana will make any difference.
Nothing short of a board-wipe should be able to save them.
EG: Chasm Skulker and Lorescale Coatl are cards I know I definitely want as they grow by themselves fairly quickly. With a Hardened Scales in the mix they can get to lethal in no time. Give // Take also combo's perfectly with them as you can remove all counters from them, draw that many cards, then place that many counters on them again. With hardened Scales that gets silly (Casting both halves with a Hardened Scales in Play will draw you 4 cards minimum, with them gaining 8 counters each as they are separate triggers - and that's assuming they have no counters on them already). Renegade Krasis and Gyre Sage would also be central to the strategy. Gyre Sage can tap for 3-4 mana or more on turn 3 depending on my draw, and Renegade Krasis will quickly raise my weakest creatures to bee bigger than cards like Anafenza. Sage of Hours can actually get me infinite turns with this deck if I can assemble a Hardened Scales, Afiya Grove, Vorel of the Hull Clade and Kiora's Follower.
Otherwise, without the follower I can essentially take turns equal to the number of counters on Afiya Grove.
To ensure I get the creature's I need most I wanted to put in a Green Sun's Zenith and Chord of Calling as this functions almost as a Mini-combo deck, and getting the right pieces at the right time can swing the game. Genesis Hydra is especially important for this, as it can also hit my enchantments.
The problem is, I found too many cards that can work so I'm at a loss...
What are the best threats, and which cards can get I get the most advantage from out of that list is the issue. I know I need some amount of ramp as well, but how many ramp cards is another thing entirely (5 may be enough, but if I don;t draw one it will be a tough match for me).
-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
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Well to tap Gilder Bairn you could use Springleaf Drum. That way you get mana and then you can untap him using the mana you made. But I don't think it will fit into your strategy. It takes a lot to set that up especially since you only have 1 of each card.
I would say that I would add like 4 mana creatures. How about the simic keyrune? It is technically ramp but it can be turned into a creature when you need one and it has hexproof. Also, you can move counters to it and they don't go away when it goes back to an artifact at the end of turn.
Also, think about quest for renewal. Since you will be tapping your creatures so much to multiply counters it will be easy to activate. It will make your wall of huge creatures hard to get through. Also, if you have mana creatures that are untapping and vorel untapping, you can tap vorel with their mana to multiply counters on every players turn. That is ridiculous!
@killkrazed can you post a rough decklist so we can start to break it down. It will be easier to see what you do want to use an what you don't want to use. Then we can see which cards aren't worth using or should be used in place of something else because of a possible upside.
The keyrune is a nice idea, but I don't really have any way of moving my counters without adding Bioshift - which feels like it could be a dead draw in some cases.
Total of 53 cards, so I need to cut 4 of them out. Not really sure though, since everything in here seems really good. I'm aiming for a nice balance of Draw, Ramp and ROFLstomp.
Not sure on what the norm for land count is in Tiny Leaders. Percentage-wise this would be equivalent to 24 lands in a 60-card deck, can I go lower due to the low curve (aside from the Hydra's)?
-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
Great place to get Anime, Figurines, Comics and Magic The Gathering cards in South Africa: www.heroesofgc.com
The keyrune is a nice idea, but I don't really have any way of moving my counters without adding Bioshift - which feels like it could be a dead draw in some cases.
Total of 53 cards, so I need to cut 4 of them out. Not really sure though, since everything in here seems really good. I'm aiming for a nice balance of Draw, Ramp and ROFLstomp.
Not sure on what the norm for land count is in Tiny Leaders. Percentage-wise this would be equivalent to 24 lands in a 60-card deck, can I go lower due to the low curve (aside from the Hydra's)?
You've got 6 creatures and 4 spells that need U. So you don't need nearly as many islands than forests. You will obviously need Llanowar Reborn. Graft was the original simic mechanic and it gives you a land and a counter. Then you can double the counters on it and proliferate that too. I'd say you want all of the duel lands to make sure that you get the islands and forests that you need. So... simic guildgate, thornwood falls, Simic growth chamber ect... there are a few more. I would day that you still want like 8 islands and the rest will be forest. You might also want a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx sine you do have devotion playing in your favor.
The cuts
- Champion of Lambholt because you don't have a ton of creatures entering the battlefield (tokens).
- Astral Cornucopia because it requires so much mana. Unless you are going to be planning for the late game I don't think that this is necessary.
- Lorescale Coatl because you don't have much card draw. He is not going to be beneficial to you. Chasm Skulker on the other hand is because his counters matter in the end. Lorescale only matters as long as he is on the field. Yes he can get big but it doesn't matter because you have Hydra's.
- Brianstorm. I say this because it's a very combo-ey card. You aren't looking for a specific card or anything. That is my only justification. It's a good card but do you really need it? That is your decision. It's a really good card in general and of course you don't want to cut it.
Now that we have cut 4 cards you are at 50 exactly. I think that this is strong as it is right now.
Are there any cards that you don't like or don't really want to use?
Lorescale Coatl: If Give // Take, Brainstorm, Bred for the Hunt, Zameck Guildmage and Ordeal of Thassa aren't considered a lot of draw - I don't know what you would consider as good draw. True, they are few cards - but they do draw a substantial amount over time, with some of them being very explosive draws.
Also keep in mind that Hardened scales makes him grow twice as fast - and as with all creatures Vorel can accelerate him.
Astral Cornucopia: It was my intention to cast it for fairly low (X=1), then use Vorel to double it's counters every turn. With either Kiora's Follower or Quest for Renewal active I could get 4 mana in very short order. It can also be Proliferated with Thrummingbird.
It may be too slow or situational though, so I will consider removing it.
So far, I think I'm going to remove the following: Solidarity of heroes: Overkill, probably not necessary with the other ways I have to gain counters. Protean Hydra: the weakest of the creatures in my opinion.
Is Genesis Wave worth it? Scratch that, it will end the game. Especially with a few evolve triggers.
-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
Great place to get Anime, Figurines, Comics and Magic The Gathering cards in South Africa: www.heroesofgc.com
Lorescale Coatl: If Give // Take, Brainstorm, Bred for the Hunt, Zameck Guildmage and Ordeal of Thassa aren't considered a lot of draw - I don't know what you would consider as good draw. True, they are few cards - but they do draw a substantial amount over time, with some of them being very explosive draws.
Also keep in mind that Hardened scales makes him grow twice as fast - and as with all creatures Vorel can accelerate him.
Astral Cornucopia: It was my intention to cast it for fairly low (X=1), then use Vorel to double it's counters every turn. With either Kiora's Follower or Quest for Renewal active I could get 4 mana in very short order. It can also be Proliferated with Thrummingbird.
It may be too slow or situational though, so I will consider removing it.
So far, I think I'm going to remove the following: Solidarity of heroes: Overkill, probably not necessary with the other ways I have to gain counters. Protean Hydra: the weakest of the creatures in my opinion.
Okay you arguments are valid but remember that removal is still a thing. If Lorescale Coatl is removed after he gets a few counters he's just gone. Chasm does not act the same way. Yes hes dead, but his friends then arrive. That's just my opinion though.
If you like Champion of Lambholt then use her. It's a good card either way, I just don't know if it will perform well. But only playing the deck will tell for sure.
Astral Cornucopia is just amazing. I completely forgot that the counters on it will double. I was forgetting that Vorel can double those counters too. OMG SO GOOD! For sure a keep card.
Steady progress is good. I would it add but then you need to cut something. Maybe doubling cube? I mean astral can get out of hand but something needs to be cut. IDK what do you think?
Protean Hydra is actually amazing. If you block with it it can't die as long as it has two or more counters on it. You prevent all of the damage and then just remove one counter instead. Then at the end step you put two more counters on it. Also if you remove a counter from it to another creature using Zameck Guildmage you will draw a card and it will still get two more counters. I think it would be fun to use. Solidarity of Heroes is removable. It's good but if you don't have the mana to cast it then you won't want to. Genesis Wave is the same way. If you can cast it for like 3-6 then it will be cool but casting it for less won't benefit you much. Also, can you use a card with 3 mana symbols and then x? Also, Nylea costs 4 so shes out.
I didn't realize Protean Hydra's effect worked even if the counter was removed by other means, kinda only read the "whenever dealt damage" part and just assumed the rest.
It could act as a pretty potent draw engine with Zameck guildmage as you said.
The main reason I don't want to remove Lorescal Coatl is because it and Chasm skulker are the 2 best targets for Give // Take - I've used the Give // Take card in combination with Chasm Skulker, and I know how powerful it is. I know it can be removed, but it's not a card that I'm going to be purposefully investing time in, it just grows by itself - so it's OK.
The Combo i'm referring to work's like this: With either Chasm Skulker or Lorescale Coatl on the field with X coiunters on them you can cast "Take" and draw X cards - then they'll gain those counters back. Casting both halves of Give // Take will get x+3 cards and the end result is that they now have 3 extra counters. With a hardened scales on the field their counters will double instead.
Good call on Clockspinning! It target's all types of counters similar to Vorel, and in addition to that it can give me another way to get infinite turn's with Sage of Hours (8 mana + Hardened Scales).
Ok, here's what I've decided so far:
SwappingChampion of Labholt for Nylea, god of the Hunt (resistant to removal and accomplishes a similar goal + can evolve Gyre Sage or Renegade krasis with enough devotion). SwappingDoubling Cube for Steady Progress (Doubling cube may be overkill, and steady progress accomplishes many things in this deck) SwappingSolidarity of heroes for Clockspinning (solidarity can't target non-creatures and i think i have enough ways to increase my counters already, with the extra proliferate)
Guaranteed Removing: Quest for Renewal - I know it can untap my creatures and allow me to attack aggressively, it doesn't untap my lands or other permanents. It's a nice card, but isn't necessary.
Still got to drop 3.
Dammit, there are too many options. At this point I'm just consider dumping a land or two. Anybody know how many lands i could get away with in this list?
-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
Great place to get Anime, Figurines, Comics and Magic The Gathering cards in South Africa: www.heroesofgc.com
I didn't realize Protean Hydra's effect worked even if the counter was removed by other means, kinda only read the "whenever dealt damage" part and just assumed the rest.
It could act as a pretty potent draw engine with Zameck guildmage as you said.
The main reason I don't want to remove Lorescal Coatl is because it and Chasm skulker are the 2 best targets for Give // Take - I've used the Give // Take card in combination with Chasm Skulker, and I know how powerful it is. I know it can be removed, but it's not a card that I'm going to be purposefully investing time in, it just grows by itself - so it's OK.
The Combo i'm referring to work's like this: With either Chasm Skulker or Lorescale Coatl on the field with X coiunters on them you can cast "Take" and draw X cards - then they'll gain those counters back. Casting both halves of Give // Take will get x+3 cards and the end result is that they now have 3 extra counters. With a hardened scales on the field their counters will double instead
Good call on Clockspinning! It target's all types of counters similar to Vorel, and in addition to that it can give me another way to get infinite turn's with Sage of Hours (8 mana + Hardened Scales).
Ok, here's what I've decided so far:
SwappingChampion of Labholt for Nylea, god of the Hunt (resistant to removal and accomplishes a similar goal + can evolve Gyre Sage or Renegade krasis with enough devotion).
Swapping Solidarity of heroes for Clockspinning (solidarity can't target non-creatures and i think i have enough ways to increase my counters already, with the extra proliferate)
You will probably get more counters from clockspinning anyway.
Quest for Renewal - I know it can untap my creatures and allow me to attack aggressively, it doesn't untap my lands or other permanents. It's a nice card, but isn't necessary.
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I agree. I actually think that I would remove both quests. You have ways to get counters in so many other cards that you could do without the other.
Still got to drop 3.
Dammit, there are too many options. At this point I'm just consider dumping a land or two. Anybody know how many lands i could get away with in this list?[/quote][/quote]
I would think that you would want somewhere between 17-20. I don't know how many though. You plan to draw a lot of cards so you will want the mana to be able to cast everything too. It would blow to be stuck on 5 mana.
For some reason I was thinking Nylea was 3.
Got confused with Thassa I guess.
The quest for the Gemblades could be removed, but it get a VERY fast 4 counters on something (such as a Gyre Sage, Champion of Lambholt or Sage of Hours). Can you imagine tapping a Sage for 4 mana on turn 3!
Probably magical Christmas land though.
So far I'm thinking of removing the 2x Quest cards and possibly Scute Mob as it may be too slow, since the only card I have to add more lands is the Ordeal of Nylea.
If I do remove Scute Mob, I don't want to remove any more creatures. Any less than 16 feels fragile to me.
Last slot to cut could possibly be a land, which would ratio wise be equal to 23 lands in a 60 card deck. I think I can get away with it thanks to the acceleration and low curve of most of my cards.
Otherwise is it worth removing one of the ordeals? They will activate almost immediately in most cases though and both their abilities are fairly powerful.
I would think that you would want somewhere between 17-20. I don't know how many though. You plan to draw a lot of cards so you will want the mana to be able to cast everything too. It would blow to be stuck on 5 mana.
Actually, at 5 mana I could do quite a lot. I can cast pretty much anything in the deck (Hydra's will also be decent, and still grow), I can search anything with Green Sun's Zenith etc.
Ideally I would like 6 mana, but at 5 it isn't so bad.
-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
Great place to get Anime, Figurines, Comics and Magic The Gathering cards in South Africa: www.heroesofgc.com
Now only testing will tell if it works as intended.
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-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
Great place to get Anime, Figurines, Comics and Magic The Gathering cards in South Africa: www.heroesofgc.com
I've been playing a similar deck for a little while now. A couple things I noticed you didn't have that I feel are VERY powerful: Illusionist's Bracers is just freakishly powerful with Vorel. Doubling the doubling is ridiculously potent. The other card may just be a pet card of mine, but I have won many games on his back: Thorn Thallid. It seems really silly at first, but it gets so very far out of hand REALLY fast. Especially with the bracers on Vorel. Some of my better plays are double doubling the thorn thallid, equipping the bracers on the thallid, and then doing 2 damage for every 3 counters you remove.
Another card that has done a lot of work for me is Devoted Druid. If you get +1/+1 counters on him, he can do a lot. I run both the druid and Gyre Sage, as the sage is more powerful. I also run Power Conduit. Conduit + Devoted Druid is also very powerful. T2 druid into T3 Conduit, tap the druid, -1/-1 to untap, use Conduit removing the -1/-1 and putting a +1/+1 instead, tap Druid, untap and obliterating the +1/+1, and then tap again. Conduit with druid on the field essentially says T: Add GG to your mana pool.
I also run a LOT more artifacts in my build (over half the spells). So I find Conduit to be very powerful. Coretapper and Energy Chamber add into that. Orochi Hatchery often wins the game if not removed immediately. Shrine of Burning Rage and Grindclock win the game by themselves just by doing nothing. I feel like I started with a similar idea and went a very different route, but I have seen good results so far.
Have you considered Somberwald Sage? I run her in my Animar deck, which also seeks to have crazy huge hydras running amok, and she's a big help in dropping them for a higher X. I also use Nimbus Swimmer, because he's basically a hydra with flying. Lifeblood Hydra has done a lot of good work for me, as he either stays on the board as a big beater or they kill him and give me a healthy chunk of life and cards. If you are having trouble with getting chump blocked, or just want to close out the game faster, both Bramblewood Paragon and Tuskguard Captain can give your guys trample. My final suggestion would be Trygon Predator, at least in the side, because he can just do so much good work.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
If you want to use Gilder Bairn, Flood works great. Freed From the Real can also do some work. Freed + Gyre Sage with at least 3 counters = Infinite Mana.
Flood also works as a good attacker deterrent.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I want to make a deck that can outgrow anything my opponent's can realistically put out with 3 mana, so the first card that came to mind was Vorel of the Hull Clade.
I've compiled a list of cards I believe would fit well so far, there's a surprising amount:
Threats
*Genesis Hydra can also act as a searcher for one of the enchantments we need
Now, to get these threats to their biggest we need some;
Ramp
*Preferring ramp that can be grown exponentially with Vorel, and avoiding exceedingly expensive (money wise) mana rocks that I know of.
*Don't forget he can double counters on artifacts as well.
We also need a good amount of:
Draw
*Any suggestions here? I'm kinda drawing a blank. Blue Sun's zenith may be overly costed I feel.
To make our creatures get as big as possible, as quickly as possible we need some growth accelerators AKA:
Fertilizer
*Afiya grove should work in conjunction with Hardened scales (IE: getting 2 counters on the creature instead of one).
Finally, some multi - purpose cards:
Utility
*Give // Take is arguably the most powerful card in this build, and one of the main reasons I wanted to run Vorel.
It combo's so well with Chasm Skulker and Lorescale Coatl and can make Gyre Sage into one of the fastest ramps ever - I have a feeling Quest for the Gemblades can accomplish a similar task, but possibly less reliably.
Current Decklist:
1 Vorel of the Hull Clade
Creatures (17)
1 Chasm Skulker
1 Lorescale Coatl
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Renegade Krasis
1 Experiment One
1 Gyre Sage
1 Kiora's Follower
1 Scute Mob
1 Thrummingbird
1 Predator ooze
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Genesis hydra
1 Vastwood Hydra
1 Primordial Hydra
1 Protean Hydra
1 Zameck Guildmage
1 Sage of Hours
1 Hardened Scales
1 Ordeal of Thassa
1 Ordeal of Nylea
1 Afiya Grove
1 Curse of Predation
1 Bred for the Hunt
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Astral Cornucopia
Instants / Sorceries (5)
1 Give // Take
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Brainstorm
1 Genesis Wave
1 Clockspinning
Lands (20)
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Breeding pool
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Command tower
1 Oran-Rief, The Vastwood
1 Simic Growth chamber
1 Reflecting Pool
4 Island
6 Forest
Quickly rack up counters on things and get bigger than anything your opponent can put out. Coupled with a good amount of Ramp and Draw, you can just keep on coming, gradually getting stronger and stronger until eventually you are completely out of reach. Kill spells can cause some problems, but pretty much everything in the deck gets to be a big threat in a few turns - so your opponent better be running a ton of removal to make a dent.
This deck does not have removal, that's not it's focus after all. We do not remove our opponent's creatures - they MUST remove ours, or they die.
This deck is very synergistic, what you need to keep in mind that it functions best with "mini" combo's of 2-3 cards.
Notable Combo's:
At the moment I am looking for a few cards that can evolve my Renegade Krasis by themselves. I am considering Replacing Scute mob and Experiment One in favor of creatures that can allow me to double-evolve Renegade Krasis off of a Genesis Hydra but still provide synergy for the rest of the deck. Any suggestions? (Currently Considering Force of Savagery as I can make it stay out by using Zameck Guildmage first, or Leatherback Baloth just for the power).
*Freaking Wish I could use Copsejack menace!
Also, does anyone think that City of Shadows may be worth using? Vorel could ramp it fairly quickly after an initial investment of one creature. Losing a creature is a pretty big cost though.
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And I know it's not the direction you're originally thinking, but I've been able to put together a pretty nasty deck with Vorel, Kiora's Follower, Prophet of Kruphix and Grindclock. Yup. The garbage miller can get nasty with Vorel. Just a thought.
Tiny Leaders can only have cards with CMC 3 or less.
As for OP's deck, it looks interesting. The only thing I can add is that I'm not exactly sure how necessary doubling a Hydra's counters is. Most likely, they're going to be larger than everything else anyways, which is why they're so strong in the format. Also, Sol Ring is banned if you follow http://tinyleaders.blogspot.com/p/ban-list.html
New to Tiny leaders aren't you (Newer than me at least)?
In the Tiny Leaders format you have a max CMC on 3 for all your cards - so I can't use Kalonian Hydra or Prophet of Kruphix.
Also, Kalonian Hydra is damn expensive.Nevermind, Price seems to have dropped considerably since I last saw it.Sage of Hours definitely sounds worth it though - but it may be difficult to get him up to 5 on a regular basis.
If the Afiya Grove and Hardened Scales combo works (ie: will Afiya Grove place 2 counters on the creature?) I can actually use it to take up to 3 extra turns (Afiya places 2, then Vorel adds 3, rinse and repeat until the grove is out of counters).
With a bit of setup, by increasing the counters on the Grove a bit beforehand, I could gain a lot of turns out of nowhere.
Considering Tiny leaders have a relatively small deck at only 50 cards - and my Vorel can double it's counters - Grindclock may actually be viable.
Only problem is Tiny leaders will naturally have a more aggressive curve than most decks - so it may be too slow.
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It could also shift the power to an unblocked creature so it may make a neat combat trick.
Does anyone have any idea's on what cards I can remove from the list to bring it down to a useable 50 card deck?
At the moment the deck would have to be 70+ cards, so it needs a pretty big diet and optimization.
I can't gauge the effectiveness of non-standard cards due to my low experience outside of Standard, so any criticisms would be appreciated.
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Thanks, didn't even see Gilder Bairn.
Wouldn't it be somewhat difficult to use his ability though (since you'll have to tap him somehow first)?
Sol Ring's already been removed.
@Andymadeit
Ideally I'd like to be able to cast my Hydra's for X=6 or more in a relatively short number of turns.
I doubt any opponent will be able to get creatures bigger than 6/6's and if so i can always use Vorel to increase their strength.
Land-Wise I have on clue as to how much would be needed for a 50 card deck. If I were to average it out based on a 60-card deck I would probably run around 20 lands.
I'm not looking for a Combat Trick deck - what I want this deck to do is too slowly spiral out of control.
It needs to have it's creatures grow bigger and bigger, with a decent amount of card advantage, to the point of where nothing any opponent can realistically play for 3 mana will make any difference.
Nothing short of a board-wipe should be able to save them.
EG: Chasm Skulker and Lorescale Coatl are cards I know I definitely want as they grow by themselves fairly quickly. With a Hardened Scales in the mix they can get to lethal in no time.
Give // Take also combo's perfectly with them as you can remove all counters from them, draw that many cards, then place that many counters on them again. With hardened Scales that gets silly (Casting both halves with a Hardened Scales in Play will draw you 4 cards minimum, with them gaining 8 counters each as they are separate triggers - and that's assuming they have no counters on them already).
Renegade Krasis and Gyre Sage would also be central to the strategy. Gyre Sage can tap for 3-4 mana or more on turn 3 depending on my draw, and Renegade Krasis will quickly raise my weakest creatures to bee bigger than cards like Anafenza.
Sage of Hours can actually get me infinite turns with this deck if I can assemble a Hardened Scales, Afiya Grove, Vorel of the Hull Clade and Kiora's Follower.
Otherwise, without the follower I can essentially take turns equal to the number of counters on Afiya Grove.
To ensure I get the creature's I need most I wanted to put in a Green Sun's Zenith and Chord of Calling as this functions almost as a Mini-combo deck, and getting the right pieces at the right time can swing the game. Genesis Hydra is especially important for this, as it can also hit my enchantments.
The problem is, I found too many cards that can work so I'm at a loss...
What are the best threats, and which cards can get I get the most advantage from out of that list is the issue. I know I need some amount of ramp as well, but how many ramp cards is another thing entirely (5 may be enough, but if I don;t draw one it will be a tough match for me).
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I would say that I would add like 4 mana creatures. How about the simic keyrune? It is technically ramp but it can be turned into a creature when you need one and it has hexproof. Also, you can move counters to it and they don't go away when it goes back to an artifact at the end of turn.
I think that Genesis hydra is amazing. I think warden of the first tree is out because he has mana symbols on his card that don't match Vorel. Vastwood Hydra is amazing with Hardened Scales and Mistcutter Hydra is a sideboard card. It's just not great especially if you have to cast him for a low amount of mana.
Also, think about quest for renewal. Since you will be tapping your creatures so much to multiply counters it will be easy to activate. It will make your wall of huge creatures hard to get through. Also, if you have mana creatures that are untapping and vorel untapping, you can tap vorel with their mana to multiply counters on every players turn. That is ridiculous!
@killkrazed can you post a rough decklist so we can start to break it down. It will be easier to see what you do want to use an what you don't want to use. Then we can see which cards aren't worth using or should be used in place of something else because of a possible upside.
The keyrune is a nice idea, but I don't really have any way of moving my counters without adding Bioshift - which feels like it could be a dead draw in some cases.
Here's what I've come up with So far:
1 Chasm Skulker
1 Lorescale Coatl
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Renegade Krasis
1 Experiment One
1 Gyre Sage
1 Kiora's Follower
1 Scute Mob
1 Thrummingbird
1 Predator ooze
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Genesis hydra
1 Vastwood Hydra
1 Primordial Hydra
1 Protean Hydra
1 Zameck Guildmage
1 Sage of Hours
1 Hardened Scales
1 Ordeal of Thassa
1 Ordeal of Nylea
1 Afiya Grove
1 Quest for the Gemblades
1 Quest for Renewal
1 Curse of Predation
1 Bred for the Hunt
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Astral Cornucopia
1 Doubling Cube
1 Give // Take
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Brainstorm
1 Genesis Wave
1 Solidarity of Heroes
20 lands
Total of 53 cards, so I need to cut 4 of them out. Not really sure though, since everything in here seems really good. I'm aiming for a nice balance of Draw, Ramp and ROFLstomp.
Not sure on what the norm for land count is in Tiny Leaders. Percentage-wise this would be equivalent to 24 lands in a 60-card deck, can I go lower due to the low curve (aside from the Hydra's)?
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You didn't include Vorel of the Hull Clade either.
You've got 6 creatures and 4 spells that need U. So you don't need nearly as many islands than forests. You will obviously need Llanowar Reborn. Graft was the original simic mechanic and it gives you a land and a counter. Then you can double the counters on it and proliferate that too. I'd say you want all of the duel lands to make sure that you get the islands and forests that you need. So... simic guildgate, thornwood falls, Simic growth chamber ect... there are a few more. I would day that you still want like 8 islands and the rest will be forest. You might also want a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx sine you do have devotion playing in your favor.
The cuts
- Champion of Lambholt because you don't have a ton of creatures entering the battlefield (tokens).
- Astral Cornucopia because it requires so much mana. Unless you are going to be planning for the late game I don't think that this is necessary.
- Lorescale Coatl because you don't have much card draw. He is not going to be beneficial to you. Chasm Skulker on the other hand is because his counters matter in the end. Lorescale only matters as long as he is on the field. Yes he can get big but it doesn't matter because you have Hydra's.
- Brianstorm. I say this because it's a very combo-ey card. You aren't looking for a specific card or anything. That is my only justification. It's a good card but do you really need it? That is your decision. It's a really good card in general and of course you don't want to cut it.
Now that we have cut 4 cards you are at 50 exactly. I think that this is strong as it is right now.
Are there any cards that you don't like or don't really want to use?
Lorescale Coatl: If Give // Take, Brainstorm, Bred for the Hunt, Zameck Guildmage and Ordeal of Thassa aren't considered a lot of draw - I don't know what you would consider as good draw. True, they are few cards - but they do draw a substantial amount over time, with some of them being very explosive draws.
Also keep in mind that Hardened scales makes him grow twice as fast - and as with all creatures Vorel can accelerate him.
Champion of Lambholt: I don't have any evasion in this deck and the champion can provide that role. Token's are not necessary as I can easily get as many counters as needed on him at a moments notice.
As with everything, Vorel can double them and there are many more ways of getting counters not including summoning creatures (Give // Take, Afiya Grove, Quest for the Gemblades, Renegade krasis, Thrummingbird, Ordeal of Thassa, Ordeal of Nylea, Curse of predation, Solidarity of Heroes, Hardened Scales etc.) I could replace him with something like Nylea, god of the Hunt. Nylea would be harder to get rid of, but Trample isn't quite as powerful as unblockable.
Astral Cornucopia: It was my intention to cast it for fairly low (X=1), then use Vorel to double it's counters every turn. With either Kiora's Follower or Quest for Renewal active I could get 4 mana in very short order. It can also be Proliferated with Thrummingbird.
It may be too slow or situational though, so I will consider removing it.
Brainstorm: This deck is basically a combo deck. Or at least, it relies heavily on Synergy and getting enough pieces. There is no way I am removing brainstorm.
Also, it get's anywhere from 3-6 counters (dependent on Hardened Scales) on Chasm Skulker and Lorescale Coatl for only 1 mana - which is nice.
Unless you can suggest a better card for drawing? (Blue Sun's Zenith is too expensive, the triple blue will make it a nightmare to cast).
Breakthrough Possibly? It is possible for me to get to a level where I can keep my entire hand fairly easily.
Otherwise: Careful Study, Preordain, Serum Visions, Life's Legacy, Sylvan Library, Shielding Plax, Ponder, Steady Progress, Monastery Siege and Edric, Spymaster of Trest all seem good.
Out of Those, Steady progress seems to be the best all-round fit for the deck.
So far, I think I'm going to remove the following:
Solidarity of heroes: Overkill, probably not necessary with the other ways I have to gain counters.
Protean Hydra: the weakest of the creatures in my opinion.
Is Genesis Wave worth it?Scratch that, it will end the game. Especially with a few evolve triggers.Great place to get Anime, Figurines, Comics and Magic The Gathering cards in South Africa: www.heroesofgc.com
Okay you arguments are valid but remember that removal is still a thing. If Lorescale Coatl is removed after he gets a few counters he's just gone. Chasm does not act the same way. Yes hes dead, but his friends then arrive. That's just my opinion though.
If you like Champion of Lambholt then use her. It's a good card either way, I just don't know if it will perform well. But only playing the deck will tell for sure.
Astral Cornucopia is just amazing. I completely forgot that the counters on it will double. I was forgetting that Vorel can double those counters too. OMG SO GOOD! For sure a keep card.
Steady progress is good. I would it add but then you need to cut something. Maybe doubling cube? I mean astral can get out of hand but something needs to be cut. IDK what do you think?
Protean Hydra is actually amazing. If you block with it it can't die as long as it has two or more counters on it. You prevent all of the damage and then just remove one counter instead. Then at the end step you put two more counters on it. Also if you remove a counter from it to another creature using Zameck Guildmage you will draw a card and it will still get two more counters. I think it would be fun to use. Solidarity of Heroes is removable. It's good but if you don't have the mana to cast it then you won't want to. Genesis Wave is the same way. If you can cast it for like 3-6 then it will be cool but casting it for less won't benefit you much. Also, can you use a card with 3 mana symbols and then x? Also, Nylea costs 4 so shes out.
How about clockspinning? With hardened scales it puts two counters on a creature every turn if you buy it back.
I didn't realize Protean Hydra's effect worked even if the counter was removed by other means, kinda only read the "whenever dealt damage" part and just assumed the rest.
It could act as a pretty potent draw engine with Zameck guildmage as you said.
The main reason I don't want to remove Lorescal Coatl is because it and Chasm skulker are the 2 best targets for Give // Take - I've used the Give // Take card in combination with Chasm Skulker, and I know how powerful it is. I know it can be removed, but it's not a card that I'm going to be purposefully investing time in, it just grows by itself - so it's OK.
The Combo i'm referring to work's like this: With either Chasm Skulker or Lorescale Coatl on the field with X coiunters on them you can cast "Take" and draw X cards - then they'll gain those counters back. Casting both halves of Give // Take will get x+3 cards and the end result is that they now have 3 extra counters. With a hardened scales on the field their counters will double instead.
Good call on Clockspinning! It target's all types of counters similar to Vorel, and in addition to that it can give me another way to get infinite turn's with Sage of Hours (8 mana + Hardened Scales).
Ok, here's what I've decided so far:
Swapping Champion of Labholt for Nylea, god of the Hunt (resistant to removal and accomplishes a similar goal + can evolve Gyre Sage or Renegade krasis with enough devotion).
Swapping Doubling Cube for Steady Progress (Doubling cube may be overkill, and steady progress accomplishes many things in this deck)
Swapping Solidarity of heroes for Clockspinning (solidarity can't target non-creatures and i think i have enough ways to increase my counters already, with the extra proliferate)
Guaranteed Removing:
Quest for Renewal - I know it can untap my creatures and allow me to attack aggressively, it doesn't untap my lands or other permanents. It's a nice card, but isn't necessary.
Still got to drop 3.
Dammit, there are too many options. At this point I'm just consider dumping a land or two. Anybody know how many lands i could get away with in this list?
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Nylea, God of the Hunt costs 4 mana so she can't be used with Tiny Leaders.
You will probably get more counters from clockspinning anyway.
[/quote]
I agree. I actually think that I would remove both quests. You have ways to get counters in so many other cards that you could do without the other.
Still got to drop 3.
Dammit, there are too many options. At this point I'm just consider dumping a land or two. Anybody know how many lands i could get away with in this list?[/quote][/quote]
I would think that you would want somewhere between 17-20. I don't know how many though. You plan to draw a lot of cards so you will want the mana to be able to cast everything too. It would blow to be stuck on 5 mana.
Got confused with Thassa I guess.
The quest for the Gemblades could be removed, but it get a VERY fast 4 counters on something (such as a Gyre Sage, Champion of Lambholt or Sage of Hours). Can you imagine tapping a Sage for 4 mana on turn 3!
Probably magical Christmas land though.
So far I'm thinking of removing the 2x Quest cards and possibly Scute Mob as it may be too slow, since the only card I have to add more lands is the Ordeal of Nylea.
If I do remove Scute Mob, I don't want to remove any more creatures. Any less than 16 feels fragile to me.
Last slot to cut could possibly be a land, which would ratio wise be equal to 23 lands in a 60 card deck. I think I can get away with it thanks to the acceleration and low curve of most of my cards.
Otherwise is it worth removing one of the ordeals? They will activate almost immediately in most cases though and both their abilities are fairly powerful.
Actually, at 5 mana I could do quite a lot. I can cast pretty much anything in the deck (Hydra's will also be decent, and still grow), I can search anything with Green Sun's Zenith etc.
Ideally I would like 6 mana, but at 5 it isn't so bad.
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1 Chasm Skulker
1 Lorescale Coatl
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Renegade Krasis
1 Experiment One
1 Gyre Sage
1 Kiora's Follower
1 Scute Mob
1 Thrummingbird
1 Predator ooze
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Genesis hydra
1 Vastwood Hydra
1 Primordial Hydra
1 Protean Hydra
1 Zameck Guildmage
1 Sage of Hours
1 Hardened Scales
1 Ordeal of Thassa
1 Ordeal of Nylea
1 Afiya Grove
1 Curse of Predation
1 Bred for the Hunt
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Astral Cornucopia
Instants / Sorceries (5)
1 Give // Take
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Brainstorm
1 Genesis Wave
1 Clockspinning
Lands (20)
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Breeding pool
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Command tower
1 Oran-Rief, The Vastwood
1 Simic Growth chamber
1 Reflecting Pool
4 Island
6 Forest
Now only testing will tell if it works as intended.
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Another card that has done a lot of work for me is Devoted Druid. If you get +1/+1 counters on him, he can do a lot. I run both the druid and Gyre Sage, as the sage is more powerful. I also run Power Conduit. Conduit + Devoted Druid is also very powerful. T2 druid into T3 Conduit, tap the druid, -1/-1 to untap, use Conduit removing the -1/-1 and putting a +1/+1 instead, tap Druid, untap and obliterating the +1/+1, and then tap again. Conduit with druid on the field essentially says T: Add GG to your mana pool.
I also run a LOT more artifacts in my build (over half the spells). So I find Conduit to be very powerful. Coretapper and Energy Chamber add into that. Orochi Hatchery often wins the game if not removed immediately. Shrine of Burning Rage and Grindclock win the game by themselves just by doing nothing. I feel like I started with a similar idea and went a very different route, but I have seen good results so far.
Also: Magistrate's Scepter? Minamo, School at Water's Edge. I also run Academy Ruins but I also run a lot of artifacts.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Flood also works as a good attacker deterrent.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
The level of threats it can pump out quickly are more than non-board wipe decks can handle.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."