Has anyone tried building Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero? She looks like she could be interesting, although I'm not sure if it's strong enough to compete with stuff like Geist and Ezuri.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I think it's the out of the box thinking that the Tiny Leaders format needs, but I honestly don't know how many viable cards have the Rebel type any more.
Has anyone tried building Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero? She looks like she could be interesting, although I'm not sure if it's strong enough to compete with stuff like Geist and Ezuri.
A nice trick with Sivvi is the fact that a tutored Bound in Silence doesn't target, so it can handle Geist just fine. Ezuri should be decent with the right mix of removal and hate bears. You don't really need that many rebels to make Sivvi work. I think my old EDH 100 card list ended up with five rebels or something. Getting to fetch more than twice in a game is unusual and then you're often winning anyway.
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Lands are still very important, obviously depending on how color intensive your deck is.
As for land destruction, I'm not entirely sure how you're going to be able to do a competitive Orzhov LD deck. Black and White lack a lot of good LD spells. With black you might get some of the auras and Sinkhole, but that's about it. There's not really enough there to make an efficient shell.
I would be very surprised if you managed to make a list without R/G in it.
Has anyone tried building Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero? She looks like she could be interesting, although I'm not sure if it's strong enough to compete with stuff like Geist and Ezuri.
I mentioned in one of my previous posts the ability to use Lin-Sivvi at the helm of a Life Combo deck, since she can tutor Task Force and Outrider en-Kor. Bound In Silence deals with Geist pretty well.
Hmmm nope, I've never heard of that. We even start the game with 5 extra life. Tier 1 decks are probably Ezuri, Junk, Dark Depths, Doomsday/Oath and Esper Control. Toshiro and Geist are also pretty good.
I mentioned in one of my previous posts the ability to use Lin-Sivvi at the helm of a Life Combo deck, since she can tutor Task Force and Outrider en-Kor. Bound In Silence deals with Geist pretty well.
A nice trick with Sivvi is the fact that a tutored Bound in Silence doesn't target, so it can handle Geist just fine. Ezuri should be decent with the right mix of removal and hate bears. You don't really need that many rebels to make Sivvi work. I think my old EDH 100 card list ended up with five rebels or something. Getting to fetch more than twice in a game is unusual and then you're often winning anyway.
Oh yeah, I'm very familiar with the Bound in Silence trick. My main concern is even getting the opportunity to untap with Lin Sivvi in play.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Oh yeah, I'm very familiar with the Bound in Silence trick. My main concern is even getting the opportunity to untap with Lin Sivvi in play.
Indeed. The players with counters does control tempo to be sure. I think the best strategy is to trap him in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If he taps out early, you can stick Lin Sivvi and win from there. If he insists on keeping mana open you overwhelm with early, undercosted threats that he must either let resolve or exhaust his counters, and then you stick Lin Sivvi and win from there. So it makes sense to have a generally solid white weenie deck with just a few rebels, rather than trusting a t3 Sivvi too much.
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What's the crucial turn in this format? Is it like a t4 format like modern?
I think it's a little slower than that.
Sydri can regularly assemble Thopter-Sword by turn three or four, but it takes a few more turns to build up enough critical mass to really win the game.
Ezuri can get a turn three win with a godhand, but reasonably it takes until turn four or five to get things really rolling.
Geist swings for the first time on turn four, meaning you've got until at least turn five or six to answer it
Shu Yun can swing for 10+ doublestrike unblockable on turns 4 and 5, but that's not a guaranteed win without some other buff or bolts.
I'd say turn five is probably the critical turn in the format.
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What's the crucial turn in this format? Is it like a t4 format like modern?
I think it's a little slower than that.
Sydri can regularly assemble Thopter-Sword by turn three or four, but it takes a few more turns to build up enough critical mass to really win the game.
Ezuri can get a turn three win with a godhand, but reasonably it takes until turn four or five to get things really rolling.
Geist swings for the first time on turn four, meaning you've got until at least turn five or six to answer it
Shu Yun can swing for 10+ doublestrike unblockable on turns 4 and 5, but that's not a guaranteed win without some other buff or bolts.
I'd say turn five is probably the critical turn in the format.
I've been playing a bunch of Tiny Leaders recently. It's a definitely nice and refreshing from normal EDH, but I agree with a few of the other posters that have brought up the fact that this format is likely getting "solved" real quick. Especially now that more players are into this.
I'll keep brewing in the meantime but at the moment it's getting pretty lame seeing nothing but Geist and Ezuri on Cockatrice with a splash of Esper artifact combo in the mix.
I've been playing a bunch of Tiny Leaders recently. It's a definitely nice and refreshing from normal EDH, but I agree with a few of the other posters that have brought up the fact that this format is likely getting "solved" real quick. Especially now that more players are into this.
I'll keep brewing in the meantime but at the moment it's getting pretty lame seeing nothing but Geist and Ezuri on Cockatrice with a splash of Esper artifact combo in the mix.
Same impression I am getting. It already seems solved. Seems like its got a very low roof in terms of potential deckbuilding.
Can't wait to see Microscopic Leaders comes out. fifteen card decks, five card sideboards, CMC one or less, fifteen life.
Same impression I am getting. It already seems solved. Seems like its got a very low roof in terms of potential deckbuilding.
Can't wait to see Microscopic Leaders comes out. fifteen card decks, five card sideboards, CMC one or less, fifteen life.
I think there is still room for innovation but a 50 card format that only allows 3 CMC and less means there will won't be much of it. This is the kind of format that is perfect if it doesn't leave the one kitchen table it originated in. Now that Tiny Leaders has spread like wildfire, hundreds of thousands of people are attempting to break the format instead of just 8-10. The same popularity that has brought Tiny Leaders into the limelight will likely be the same popularity that does the format in.
Same impression I am getting. It already seems solved. Seems like its got a very low roof in terms of potential deckbuilding.
Can't wait to see Microscopic Leaders comes out. fifteen card decks, five card sideboards, CMC one or less, fifteen life.
I think there is still room for innovation but a 50 card format that only allows 3 CMC and less means there will won't be much of it. This is the kind of format that is perfect if it doesn't leave the one kitchen table it originated in. Now that Tiny Leaders has spread like wildfire, hundreds of thousands of people are attempting to break the format instead of just 8-10. The same popularity that has brought Tiny Leaders into the limelight will likely be the same popularity that does the format in.
The fact that hundreds of thousands are trying to break the format in two... yep that is the "low roof" I was referring to when it came to deckbuilding.
One of the things that I thought was a bit snooty is the "info" page on their blog site says that Tiny Leaders is for fans of EDH looking for a "deck building challenge", but it just seems to me that it is incredibly limited, especially at a 3 CMC cap. The real deck building challenge is still in making strong EDH decks I think, but Tiny Leaders does look entertaining mostly because it lets you play an EDH style format with a much faster tempo similar to legacy and modern.
Personally, I think that 4 CMC caps and a 60 card deck building limit would bring a whole lot more variety to what Tiny Leaders wants to accomplish, but the format has already gotten too big and I think that ship has sailed. It is designed for 1v1, however, so it is pretty much what I'd expect. You see maybe 5-7 top archetypes that consistently show up, which is typical of most competitive formats, especially when the card pool is reduced the way it is by the format's rules.
I've probably posted this before, but reading a lot of the replies on here I feel more and more that this format/thread is misclassified. TL is much more a Legacy variant than a Commander variant in terms of how it plays. While Commander players are going to feel a lack of deckbuilding diversity in TL, as a Legacy player I find it liberating to see a format where I can play most of the efficient and powerful cards/interactions that I enjoy while still being able to diversify my decklists. Those 15-20 "room to build" slots may feel like very little in the context of EDH, but in the context of Legacy, it's fantastic.
As far as the format being solved, maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but I don't think it's been mainstream nearly long enough to know for sure. And even if it is, it might just be a banning or unbanning away from being opened up (not that I really condone the Modern banlist approach, but TL is still obviously very, very new to most everyone out there).
So I recently realized that Astral Slide was legal in the format, and now I'm itching to build it.
With the slide, it does some crazy things with Containment Priest in the battlefield.
On the other hand, sacrificing Gravecrawler to Phyrexian Altar with a Blood Artist and any Zombie in the battlefield (and then use B from the altar to replay Gravecrawler and then sacrifice again) would result infinite lose life for the opponent and infinite life for you.
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I built a u/r nin artifact combo deck and it is very strong. Having come from the Duel commander group, I think changing it from a 3cmc to a 4cmc format would help improve the variety. 4 mana opens up a lot of viable generals like Arbiter and sidisi. Also it opens up the white boardwipes and most of the planeswalkers. This would let control have a game v.s ezuri outside of Red colors.
I'd say turn five is probably the critical turn in the format.
I'd agree that turn 5 is the critical turn.To really get going most decks need lands 4 and sometimes even 5 or sit on 3 and have to wait a turn. Its one of the reasons elves can win a turn or two faster that most other decks. This is not to say early turns aren't critical. Doing something each turn is a must because of the low mana curve. Fall behind and games quickly get out of reach.
I personally think if you use your general as a beater, hero's blade should be a consideration among the other swords because of the turn it saves for equipping early.
I think Ezuri is the more busted general. The deck is essentially a normal EDH deck trimmed down to the 49 best cards, since every card it plays is under 3 any way. Glimpse, Gradle, Lords, dorks, curio.. etc and overrun on the general.
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A nice trick with Sivvi is the fact that a tutored Bound in Silence doesn't target, so it can handle Geist just fine. Ezuri should be decent with the right mix of removal and hate bears. You don't really need that many rebels to make Sivvi work. I think my old EDH 100 card list ended up with five rebels or something. Getting to fetch more than twice in a game is unusual and then you're often winning anyway.
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As for land destruction, I'm not entirely sure how you're going to be able to do a competitive Orzhov LD deck. Black and White lack a lot of good LD spells. With black you might get some of the auras and Sinkhole, but that's about it. There's not really enough there to make an efficient shell.
I would be very surprised if you managed to make a list without R/G in it.
URW Control
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GR Rosheen Meanderer
I mentioned in one of my previous posts the ability to use Lin-Sivvi at the helm of a Life Combo deck, since she can tutor Task Force and Outrider en-Kor. Bound In Silence deals with Geist pretty well.
Ezuri seems like a bigger problem, but can mostly be handled by packing the deck with judicious hate. Lin-Sivvi only needs a few rebels besides the above (I like Aven Riftwatcher, Whipcorder, Lawbringer/Lightbringer, maybe Nightwind Glider/Thermal Glider), leaving you plenty of room to run hate for Ezuri. Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker do a good job of slowing him down by naming him, Staff, Symbiote, or key mana dorks. Cards like Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, and similar are obviously good.
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Oh yeah, I'm very familiar with the Bound in Silence trick. My main concern is even getting the opportunity to untap with Lin Sivvi in play.
Indeed. The players with counters does control tempo to be sure. I think the best strategy is to trap him in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If he taps out early, you can stick Lin Sivvi and win from there. If he insists on keeping mana open you overwhelm with early, undercosted threats that he must either let resolve or exhaust his counters, and then you stick Lin Sivvi and win from there. So it makes sense to have a generally solid white weenie deck with just a few rebels, rather than trusting a t3 Sivvi too much.
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I think it's a little slower than that.
Sydri can regularly assemble Thopter-Sword by turn three or four, but it takes a few more turns to build up enough critical mass to really win the game.
Ezuri can get a turn three win with a godhand, but reasonably it takes until turn four or five to get things really rolling.
Geist swings for the first time on turn four, meaning you've got until at least turn five or six to answer it
Shu Yun can swing for 10+ doublestrike unblockable on turns 4 and 5, but that's not a guaranteed win without some other buff or bolts.
I'd say turn five is probably the critical turn in the format.
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Thanks that opens up some options
I'll keep brewing in the meantime but at the moment it's getting pretty lame seeing nothing but Geist and Ezuri on Cockatrice with a splash of Esper artifact combo in the mix.
Same impression I am getting. It already seems solved. Seems like its got a very low roof in terms of potential deckbuilding.
Can't wait to see Microscopic Leaders comes out. fifteen card decks, five card sideboards, CMC one or less, fifteen life.
I think there is still room for innovation but a 50 card format that only allows 3 CMC and less means there will won't be much of it. This is the kind of format that is perfect if it doesn't leave the one kitchen table it originated in. Now that Tiny Leaders has spread like wildfire, hundreds of thousands of people are attempting to break the format instead of just 8-10. The same popularity that has brought Tiny Leaders into the limelight will likely be the same popularity that does the format in.
The fact that hundreds of thousands are trying to break the format in two... yep that is the "low roof" I was referring to when it came to deckbuilding.
Personally, I think that 4 CMC caps and a 60 card deck building limit would bring a whole lot more variety to what Tiny Leaders wants to accomplish, but the format has already gotten too big and I think that ship has sailed. It is designed for 1v1, however, so it is pretty much what I'd expect. You see maybe 5-7 top archetypes that consistently show up, which is typical of most competitive formats, especially when the card pool is reduced the way it is by the format's rules.
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As far as the format being solved, maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but I don't think it's been mainstream nearly long enough to know for sure. And even if it is, it might just be a banning or unbanning away from being opened up (not that I really condone the Modern banlist approach, but TL is still obviously very, very new to most everyone out there).
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With the slide, it does some crazy things with Containment Priest in the battlefield.
On the other hand, sacrificing Gravecrawler to Phyrexian Altar with a Blood Artist and any Zombie in the battlefield (and then use B from the altar to replay Gravecrawler and then sacrifice again) would result infinite lose life for the opponent and infinite life for you.
I'd agree that turn 5 is the critical turn.To really get going most decks need lands 4 and sometimes even 5 or sit on 3 and have to wait a turn. Its one of the reasons elves can win a turn or two faster that most other decks. This is not to say early turns aren't critical. Doing something each turn is a must because of the low mana curve. Fall behind and games quickly get out of reach.
I personally think if you use your general as a beater, hero's blade should be a consideration among the other swords because of the turn it saves for equipping early.