I've been smitten with the tiny bug myself and couldn't resist the temptation of a viable EDH burn deck (almost unthinkable in regular 100-card, 40 life EDH). I'm still mostly looking at cards and haven't compiled a finished list yet, but I was hoping those who have tried the format could help me evaluate cards a bit better. The kind of build I'm going for is NOT balls-to-the-walls burn with suicidal stuff like Flame Rift, nor is it mono-red control with main deck moon effects and Ensnaring Bridge - but something in between. I'm thinking most of the cards in the main should be able to deal dome damage or present some kind of threat, and in this manner the possibility to discard to Jaya becomes simply an added bonus.
The plan then is to play it out like a regular burn deck and ideally land Pyrostatic Pillar or Eidolon of the Great Revel as one of my last cards in hand (Spellshock is on my maybe list but I think it may be too bad to make the 49+10). Then play Jaya and Gamble for Squee, Goblin Nabob or simply use Chandra's Phoenix to get value out of her. I don't think I'll be playing her more than 2 times though, making 5 land drops a sweet spot (and discarding redundant lands to Jaya beyond that, if someone is still alive then).
Now for some cards, by category:
STRAIGHT DOME BURN Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt: These are must includes. Lava Spike: Not sure I like not being able to hit a creature in this format, though I suppose it can always fuel Jaya if I need it to kill a dude. Fiery Temper: Seems solid with Jaya, and is a good Gamble target too. Skullcrack: With its utility, I think it's good enough for the main. Staggershock and Firebolt: I think these are the best overcosted burn spells that come with potential card advantage. I'd probably rather run a sweeper than a 3 mana distribute 3. Price of Progress: The only MD non-basic hate worth including. Is at least an incinerate against mono-colored decks thanks to Jaya. Magma Jet: I love me some library manipulation in mono-red so I'll be running this. Pillar of Flame: Might be main deck material since it can stop recursion of Kitchen Finks and stuff. Death Spark: The interaction with Jaya makes me consider this, but I think I have better options already in Squee/Phoenix. Incinerate etc: My philosophy right now is that I shouldn't be main decking spells that are equally or less efficient than Jaya herself, so all the 3-for-2 options are autopruned to the maybe-board.
= Roughly 10 cards
HITTING PERMANENTS Searing Blaze + Searing Blood: These are probably auto-includes as there are very few decks with no creatures that never intend to play their commander. Smash to Smithereens: Similarly, most decks run some artifacts so this could be considered for the main. Chaos Warp: Doesn't burn, but the implications against commanders are severe and it takes care of pesky white enchantments. I think it's main deck material. Dead//Gone, Flame Slash, Skred, Magma Spray: All of these are solid but I doubt I'll manage to fit them all. Shattering Spree etc: Obviously lots of stuff like this are available for the sideboard - only have 10 cards to spend though.
= Roughly 4-8 cards
SWEEPERS Sudden Demise + Slagstorm: Both these seem like flexible MD choices that will be solid plays in any situation. Ratchet Bomb, Powder Keg, Oblivion Stone: Slow and may affect me too. Good SB options I think, especially Ratchet Bomb. Volcanic Fallout, Flamebreak, Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods: To double-sided to be worth it in the main IMO, but also SB considerations. Comet Storm: It's the best of its kind but it's still much too mana-inefficient to me. I will probably pass.
= Roughly 2-3 cards for the main and 2-3 cards for the SB
CREATURES Squee, Goblin Nabob + Chandra's Phoenix: Mostly for fueling Jaya, but the phoenix is also a solid threat that needs exiling. Goblin Guide: Agressive, and I don't really care about opposing land totals (especially with moon effects in the side). Vexing Devil: Don't mind if I do! Monastery Swiftspear: I reckon this will be about as solid as Goblin Guide, but I could see not including it. Grim Lavamancer: Jaya's baby brother who makes use of the scraps she discards. Hellspark Elemental: Seems made for this deck. Hell's Thunder: Borderline inclusion. Eats a lot of mana :/ I think I'll probably pass. Satyr Firedancer, Young Pyromancer, Guttersnipe, Kiln Fiend: While all of these are sort of solid, I think maybe Pyromancer is the best one. Thoughts? Eidolon of the Great Revel + Ash Zealot: Red hate bears! What will they think of next? I like both in the main I think. Magus of the Moon: Probably not aggressive enough for the main.
= Roughly 10 creatures for the main with a couple to consider for the side.
OTHER CONTINOUS DAMAGE SOURCES Pyrostatic Pillar: Very nice to hide behind while discharging Incinerates as activated abilities. Sulfuric Vortex: A must-include. Cursed Scroll: Why not? A bit too slow for legacy burn, but I think it will shine here. A subtle synergy with Jaya too. Repercussion: Not a source on its own but pretty much wins the aggro match-up on its own unanswered. A better MD option than Ensnaring Bridge IMO. Isochron Scepter: Costs two cards, set's you up for a two for one and really doesn't add much to the Jaya/Squee engine already in the deck. I pass.
= About 4 cards are of great interest here.
NORMAL EDH-STAPLES Blood Moon: For the sideboard. Gamble: Important for the deck's main engine with Squee. If you already have Squee, you can get Fiery Temper or maybe Death Spark (Squee synergy again!) instead. Crucible of Worlds: If this was more of a control deck and the format used big spells, I might care about making all the land drops but I think it's just too slow with the current plan. Extraplanar Lens: I think the best option would be to play this after my 4th land drop as then it will only set me back 1 mana the turn I play it. Then I will have 6 mana+ from then on. However, I care more about what happens in the 1-3 mana game space than beyond, so I don't think this belongs when I'm happy to curve out at 5 mana. Lightning Greaves: This could be a necessary evil. I doesn't burn, but it is good if you drop your fifth land and Jaya as well as with many other creatures in the deck. I think I'll include it. Braid of Fire: A bit like extraplanar lens. Costs 2 mana and breaks even two turns later. Doesn't really let me make 3 drops, so it can't replace a land. I think I'll pass. Wheel of Fortune: Since I'll be emptying my hand faster than most, I reckon this must be in the deck. Thoughts?
= About 3 cards there for the main and a couple for the board perhaps.
CUTE BUT STUPID? Basilisk Collar: Provides Jaya with a 40 W plasma rifle. Super cute, but are there many 4+ toughness creatures in the format that a burn deck needs to worry about? Does a burn deck need to gain life? I'm thinking no on both. Rings of Brightearth: Kind of like a Jaya clone/slave that's mostly useless when she's not around. Probably not worth it. Wild Guess/Tormenting Voice: I think this deck will have zero need for card parity effects since everything can be an Incinerate anyway. Distorting Lens + Scuttlemutt: Painter's Servant is banned, but these two can accomplish something similar like Basilisk Collar, but abusing Jaya's first ability instead. In an "ideal" situation, I suppose you could drop lens t2, Jaya t3, and start killing one threat or land per turn thereafter until Jaya dies, which will probably take about 3 seconds. No, I think I'll pass.
= 0 cards of interest, let me know if I'm wrong here. Collar is MAYBE a sideboard card.
OK, so this puts me at about
10 straight burn spells
4-8 spells that target permanents
2-3 sweepers
10 creatures
4 other continous sources
3 staples
= roughly 37 cards. With about 18 land, that's probably 5 too many so I'll need to be even more strict on what gets into the deck. Let me know what seems weak to you, as well as what you recommend for the mana base. I was considering keeping it simple with Mountains and a single Barbarian Ring, since Valakut has no real synergy with Jaya. Manlands are pretty bad in Legacy burn, but I'm not sure about this meta if they are worth it. Fewer Wasteland I suppose.
EDIT: I have discovered and am now also considering Act on Impulse and Dangerous Wager - seems like two great draw spells for mono red burn really.
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My very preliminary goldfishing reveals that Jaya slows this deck down half the time (as in, I would have dealt 25 quicker if I had never played her). The other half, she is fantastic. She makes a 5-land hand keepable, which is a boon for burn. I'm gonna have to rethink the list for a bit, but I think I'm on to something. Probably, dedicated stuff like Squee might not be relevant - just pitch excessive land instead.
I think Banefire might be too slow for the main - basically if it couldn't work in Legacy Burn, it likely has no place here. That's just a rule of thumb though as the formats obviously differ and I know little about Tiny Leaders. After I've included 3-for-1 burn and the most efficient creatures, it's hard to say if I should go for a couple of sweepers, exiling burn, incinerate-type cards etc.
I also noticed I'd missed Keldon Marauders up there. Oh my. I'm also contemplating if Burning Wish (getting burn, artifact removal or a sweeper - say) could have a place in the deck. Decks include 10 card sideboards, FYI.
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Given your propensity for Legacy burn and the work you've done on that thread - I'm not Surprised that you've taken it to Tiny Leaders ;P. Here's my list for comparison and ideas.
So First off, while I'm running a similar themed deck, I'm trying out Zo-Zu, The Punisher as my general, rather than Jaya. I thought Jaya at first, due to her Versatility, but casting Zo-Zu Turn 3 is likely ALWAYS able to get in a few shocks - while also causing your opponent to think twice about making late land drops. Sure, it hurts you too, but I guess my version is a bit more suicidal than yours with Flame Rift etc..
Some cards I didn't see on your list that I highly recommend:
Shrine of Burning Rage - Now, this card needs to show up in the early game to be useful, but when it does just WOW. The growth rate on this thing is just so sick that you can routinely get it off for 7-8+ damage and be a great clock staring down your opponent.
Kargan Dragonlord - With the CMC3 restriction, ways to dump your extra mana in the late game is very useful. Getting this guy to level 4 means he will beat most creatures in the format and level 8 he becomes a MUST answer threat. Sure, path/smother etc.. can knock him down and make you lose the investment, but his inculsion is still worth consideration for the later game.
I would normally never play Ball Lightning and Spark Elemental in Legacy due to the abundance of removal. However in this format, Spot removal is at a premium and very taxed due to the abundance of creatures. As a result, these guys tend to get in for nearly the full amount which is pretty mana efficient.
Some other comments:
In my experience Sweepers (Earthquake, Flamebreak etc..) are VERY main-deackable here. By deploying your creatures properly, you can sweetly 3for1 people very easily with them. Also have others in the SB for heavy token/swarming matchups.
Still, I've only played like 5-6 matches with the deck so my experience is very limited. Seeing your list, I realized I Missed Ash Zealot entirely, and should probably find room for Cursed Scroll as well. I'd love to keep bouncing ideas around here - Tiny leaders sure is a fun format!
Edit - After writing this up and reading your list again, I went through and tightened mine up a bit with some more cards I had laying around.
EDH: BBBDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefBBB GGGKamahl, Fist of KrosaGGG WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW RBUSedris, Traitor KingUBR WRGUril, the MistalkerGRW RGRosheen MeandererGR
Excellent - just the kind of feedback I was hoping for!
I've given your list some thought and deduced some interesting things. With decks going no higher than 3 colors, fully pimped decks will have only 0-6 duals (if they are running shocks which is probably not necessary if you can afford the true dual, so 0-3 is more likely). However, a 3-color deck can run up to 9 fetches if it wants to and even mono-colored decks may want to run up to 4. And all decks will have at least 3 basics, probably more. So then, it makes sense that you're not running any moon effects even in the side, nor Price of Progress. So then it's better to punish fetch lands than non-basics as such, which is exactly what Zo-Zu is doing!
I'm still inclined to go with Jaya though, simply because she solves so many of the problems burn normally faces, which can pretty much all be summed up with running out of steam. Land pocket? Had to bolt that life gain creature and now all you have is glorious Mountains with your opponent at five life? Need a sink for all that mana? It's Jaya to the rescue!
I think Jaya and Zo-zu offer different deck styles, just like Ankh-burn and normal burn of Legacy (only this format makes Ankh-style burn much more viable with all them fetches). For your list, I'd recommend Ankh of Mishra as a quicker/extra Zo-zu, as well as some acceleration. Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit Guide at least. With such a focus, it probably wouldn't hurt to run Molten Rain in the main either. People won't be playing a 4th land unless they absolutely have to, and with Rain, they have to. And what if that land is a fetch that they avoided playing before? Ouch. Fewer lands and more non-land mana sources also makes your ankh-effects more one-sided.
Where Zo-zu punishes playing lands, Jaya is better off punishing playing spells with Pillar/Revel, thanks to her excellent activated ability. I think you can build a burn deck to make either of these effects work optimally and make them more one-sided, but I think it will be hard to do both. Thus, I think Jaya should run Pillar/Revel and Zo-zu should run Ankh and acceleration for Zo-zu instead (with maybe Pillar/Revel in the board if the have a relevant combo hate application in the meta).
To your recommendations!
Shrine of Burning Rage: Hmm, with Jaya I think this could work because you can always pitch it to her if you top deck it late. It also drops early like Cursed Scroll and triggers off of cards being CAST, much to the chagrin of blue players. I think I'll try it out!
Kargan Dragonlord: I think Jaya single-handedly answers the need for a late game mana sink. I think I'd rather use Cursed Scroll but I've also considered manlands as they are good with sweepers and can help me get there without needing to play Jaya. For your deck though, Kargan seems like the real deal as you won't be wanting manlands.
Ball Lightning and Spark Elemental: You know, no matter how I look at these considering your comments, I have a hard time justifying not running them. It's also the fact that there are much scarier things to worry about in my deck than Spark Elemental, so it's just a bonus for me if they remove that. And even if they block Ball Lightning it's still almost a "6-for-3, diveded as you choose" and a huge tempo blowout for any deck.
In my experience Sweepers (Earthquake, Flamebreak etc..) are VERY main-deackable here. By deploying your creatures properly, you can sweetly 3for1 people very easily with them. Also have others in the SB for heavy token/swarming matchups.
I agree with your choice of Slagstorm for the main (helps you race both when ahead and behind), but I think I would much rather have Sudden Demise than Earthquake. Your dudes will likely survive AND you can hit flyers. It doesn't go to the dome, but the damage from your remaining dudes will likely compensate - as well as being able to drop them early. By dropping creatures early and dome spells late, you not only increase the damage output over time, but also force them to play blockers into your one-sided sweeper. As for the sideboard, I'm very fond of artifact-based sweepers like Ratchet Bomb since you can blow them up immediately against tokens and manlands, but they can also handle problematic permanents.
A few cards I'd like your opinion on:
Chaos Warp: Not in your main or side. Is tucking commanders not very useful for the deck? What about CoP:Red and stuff in games 2-3? Wheel of Fortune + Dangerous Wager: Aren't these better than Browbeat? I hate that card, personally. Target opponent chooses cake or death basically. Ghitu Encampment, Hellion Crucible, Teetering Peaks: Are ETBT lands not too slow? What makes you prefer Crucible over Mishra/Mutavault? Have you considered Barbarian Ring and/or Shivan Gorge. Have colorless lands been a problem with RR 2-drops and Ball Lightning at all? Is 19 lands a good number (the equivalent of 23 land in a 60 card deck), especially with Zo-Zu? Flames of the Blood Hand: Why this over Skullcrack? Do you think both could be run in the main as game 1 answers to life gain? Fireball: Isn't this a terrible card? Wouldn't you rather want Comet Storm or Banefire?
Alright, here's a rough first draft of my Jaya list:
I decided not to run Ball Lightning in the end because of the RRR cost and wanting to use a few man lands. I think Chandra's Phoenix and Death Spark are enough shenanigans for powering Jaya, as you'll mostly be pitching useless lands to her anyway and ONLY if you have to, hence I decided to drop the Squee/Gamble package. Not sure about the land amount, but I think it's better to err on the side of too much, since Jaya likes redundant lands anyway, plus Cursed Scroll etc. is mana hungry. The SB is also just thrown together - I eschewed grave hate with the exception of Anger of the Gods. 10 cards really isn't much to play with, especially when you want a wishboard (though the sorceries are solid in their own right regardless). Let me know what you think!
EDIT: I did some hypergeometric distributions on the land total and the correct amount appears to be surprisingly high. Check out the data in the spoiler if you're interested.
So the first query I put into the calculator concerned the opener. Mulling is bad and not that necessary with Jaya in a commander format, so I wanted to minimize those. Specifically, I looked at a 49 card deck drawing 7 cards and wanting 2-4 lands in its opener, assuming we ditch ever 0,1,5,6 and 7 land hand (an over-simplification, but it is at least something to go on). The numbers in order signify 1) Land total; prob of 0-1 lands; prob of 5+ lands; combined prob of these two (which we want to minimize). Behold:
18: 18.5 + 5.3 = 23.8
19: 16.5 + 6.9 = 23.4
20: 12.9 + 8.7 = 21.6
21: 10.6 + 10.9 = 21.5
22: 8.6 + 13.3 = 21.9
So from a mulligan perspective, 20-21 lands is optimal. Now let's look at making land drops. The number of cards you've seen is roughly equal to number of turns + 6 (assuming OTD/OTP 50% of the time and mulling to an average of 6 50% of the time). So these numbers look at 20 or 21 lands and their chances of making drops on turn 3, 4 and 5, with the final number denoting chance of having seen more than 5 lands by turn 5:
20: 80.1%; 65.7%; 49.2%; 24.0%
21: 84.4%; 71.0%; 55.5%; 29.2%
So with 21 land, you're roughly 5% more likely to have redundant land by turn 5, but also about 5% more likely to make your third, fourth and fifth land drops. However, having seen 5 lands by turn 5 means having seen 6 spells and each additional land is one more spell lost (this is where Jaya comes in obviously). With 25 life, this means each will have to contribute more than 4 points of damage, which it probably won't, which in turn means that 20 is better than 21 and that the lands must contribute with damage potential (through Jaya or by themselves). These numbers have really given me food for thought and I'll continue to ponder them. My goal will be to make this into a consistent t5 gold fish, and optimize from there.
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My Other Thoughts Satyr Firedancer: Is usually hit by removal because of the value he gives you out of your various burn spells. Suddenly that Lightning Bolt is dealing 3 to your opponent and 3 to one of that opponent's creatures.
Circle of Flame. What was once considered junk is now great for a format where most creatures have 1-3 toughness. Words of War? Don't feel like drawing? Shock it to em. Spellshock? Bumps your Eidolon and Pillar to three. Pulse of the Forge? Use it in when your opponent is ahead in life and it will always come back to you.
Thanks for all the input guys! I've been giving the deck some though and I believe I have a good idea know of its concept and what type of cards I want and don't want in the deck.
My experimentation so far leads me to belive that it is hard to design the typical kind of racing, non-interactive Burn deck that we see in Legacy, largely due to the 25 life total. A turn 5 goldfish is doable, but you will have to rely on creatures and Jaya to get there consistently (I omit the lengthy evidence). This will inevitably lead to combat and attrition, and bolts acting as removal rather than dome-damage. I think the best option if you want to go all-out Burn and race is Zo-zu. For this format however, I much prefere an interactive play style so I will focus more on aggro control. This means dropping stuff like Lava Spike in favor of stuff that provide board advantages when you cast spells (like Satyr Firedancer). It also favors robust threats like Kargan Dragonlord and Stigma Lasher over stuff like Vexing Devil and Spark Elemental. Basically, my go-to strategy will be this:
Phase 1: I play cheap threats like Goblin Guide and Ash Zealot together with any stuff that triggers off of instants/sorceries being cast or damage being dealt such as Monastery Swiftspear, Satyr Firedancer, Young Pyromancer etc. (This is turn 1-2 or maybe 3). Phase 2: I start picking off opposing threats with spells, gaining incremental advantages off my triggers doing so, and forcing my opponent to play more threats. All while beating with dudes and manlands on a largely empty field. (This is turn 3-4 or maybe 5). Phase 3: I play Jaya Ballard and preferable one other source of repeatable damage, like Lavamancer or a scroll-effect. Then, as my last card before untapping with Jaya, I play Pyrostatic Pillar or Eidolon. I then sit comfortably using activated abilities, man lands and remaining creatures to kill opposing threats and deal damage, all while forcing my opponent to deal with Pillar/Eidolon. Phase 4: If there is a phase 4, I will now have accumulated a density of cheap burn while waiting for Pillar/Eidolon to be handled and can finish off my opponent as soon as this happens.
I think this is a solid plan that sort of tells you what cards belong and don't belong in the deck, but I don't have time to post an updated list right now (will edit and include one later this day, hopefully). As for your card suggestion:
I am thinking Feldon's Cane or Elixir of Immortality should be in all sideboards as mill decks will be prevalent in a 50 card format.
Good thinking, but they mostly only work for this purpose if the mill deck mills to hand rather than to graveyard. I'll look into this some more though.
Suggestions by Desert_Walker:
Bösium Strip - too slow I think, will consider.
Hammer of Bogardan - as above.
Humble Defector - too bad, not a chance
Mizzium Mortars - probable inclusion with the new focus on the deck.
Pyromancer's Swath - not worth it IMO, not completely sure though.
Stigma Lasher - a solid utility beater, just what I need - thanks.
Magus of the Scroll - just what I need, thanks.
Red Sun's Zenith - yawn, no.
Arcane Lighthouse - too narrow to merit a colorless land main deck and I'd rather have a sweeper from the board I think.
Satyr Firedancer - probably needed in the main yeah.
Circle of Flame - it's good on paper, but I think too easy to play around. Tokens will be pumped, hexproof dudes enchanted.
Words of War - worse than my general and much worse than scroll effects. Pass.
Spellshock - needs testing. I don't want redundant effects like these, but I'm not sure 2 is the correct number - could be 3, we'll see.
Pulse of the Forge - if my opponent is ahead on life, I'm doing something wrong. Also no longer want straight dome burn.
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Maybeboard: Spellshock: Probably my top consideration. A third effect like this would not go amiss, and I can pitch redundant copies to Jaya. Skred/Flame Slash: Efficient, but are only good against dudes. I think 2x Searing + Satyr Firedancer is enough of that already. Some decks are very creature-light and boarding many cards out becomes a problem. Repercussion: A bit too slow and narrow for the main, but a strong consideration for the side.
Suggestions on cuts to fit Spellshock are appreciated! I know I want 20 land though
EDIT: Some goldfishing revealed I had way more 2-drop dudes than necessary. I also never seemed to have enough mana to pump Kargan Dragonlord (this deck is surprisingly mana hungry! You can definetely use the first 6 land drops but you're only in a rush to make the first three). So I cut it for Spellshock and the list seems really tight now. Gonna go work on the sideboard.
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I've been considering Hardcore burn but it seems a bit lackluster. However I do think a R or R/b ld heavy ponza style deck could do heavy work. All of the stone rain variants in R and B paired with cheap mana-rocks that animate themselves and man-lands could lock up a game quick. Pardic Miner + creature recusion like say Corpse Dance can just lock someone out of a game while cheap dorks bat clean-up. If only Seismic Mage was cmc 3 and Legendary.
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For Lists, Click Here EDH: GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU. UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax RW: Gisela, Boros Control RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?! B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
I've been considering Hardcore burn but it seems a bit lackluster.
Not really sure what you mean with "Hardcore burn", but if you mean being non-interactive and having a quick clock without really using the red zone much, then yeah it's not a very good strategy for the format IMO. The good thing is you can always have that as a back-up plan on the fly when playing Jaya, since she turns everything into Incinerate. So if a turn 5 goldfish is exactly what you need (say against mill or combo), she will deliver almost no matter how you build your deck. But most of the time you can do much better than that - the turn you win is not as important as making sure your opponent never wins before you regardless.
The Jaya list I'm working on seems pretty far from lackluster to me. Basically your opponent only gets to keep the toughest of threats (like True-Name Nemesis and occasionally Geist of ST) and the rest are merely there to never untap and die to my roughly 17 removal spells that mostly double as finishers. Meanwhile my threats grow and swing and demand answering in turn. When that's done, the real game begins where I abuse activated abilities under pillar effects, forcing my opponent to either do nothing or play useless threats that will deal him damage and then die instantly. Hey, it sounds fun to me!
That said, if LD is what you wanna go for, I'd take a look at Zozu and the discussion above. Now you can go pretty far into the LD concept in mono red, and have no real need for Corpse Danse or Seismic Mage either - look no further than Dwarven Miner and Dwarven Blastminer for starters. With Zozu and/or Ankh of Mishra, you again put the opponent in the position of doing nothing or taking damage from playing lands that you will only destroy. I think it can be a solid concept too, but I prefer Jaya myself.
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With all the noncreature damage dealt, is Chandra's Spitfire worth considering, or is it more of a cute card?
Cheers!
I think it's more of a cute card. You see, dealing non-combat damage to the opponent is more of a late game thing when you're using activated abilities (like Jaya) under a Pyrostatic Pillar-effect, having exhausted opposing threats. Unless you have Satyr Firedancer, most of those bolts are going to hit creatures in the early-mid game. So a card like Kiln Fiend is much better to take advantage from this game plan than Chandra's Spitfire. Chandra would likely come down later as a win more card that works best when you're already winning.
I have however reconsidered Basilisk Collar and there's hardly a match-up it doesn't improve. I think I want Sulfuric Vortex in the board and the collar in the main.
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Right now I am iffy about Basilisk Collar, Act on Impulse, and Dead // Gone. I also wasn't a big fan of Cursed Scroll but I might be willing to give it another go. Molten Rain is another card that I should try out.
Any thoughts and how has your deck testing been going?
urdjur: Wheel of Fortune is banned. Also I'd like to inquire about your sideboard ideas, especially good wish targets. Right now I'm using Pillar, Anger and Bonfire.
Glad to see there is interest in Jaya! I must say, I think she's underrated. She is strong against Ezuri and can race Geist pretty well. I'm not sure I've encountered a really bad match-up, but I have no superfast combo to play against. Against decks that are mostly aggro in a format where good removal is at a premium, mono red control keeps things honest.
I keep a super-tight wishboard of 3 targets that offer spot removal of artifact/land/creature, exiling mass removal and unstoppable finishers. You could probably run 4 targets, but beyond that I'm sure the returns are diminishing and you're better off with other sideboard choices. If you can figure out a way to squeeze in more functionality in three slots, let me know! Artifacts also offer a lot. The needle/revoker really depends on what you see in your meta - you could run Torpor Orb or Relic of Progenitus etc. too here. Ratchet Bomb, Ensnaring Bridge and Chaos Warp seem mandatory SB tools to me for pretty much all metas. It's hard to say no to Smash too, if you have room. Sulfuric Vortex is a must main or side, but I've found I'd rather avoid antisynergy with Basilisk Collar in the main and bring in Vortex in its place against match-ups with superior life gain that can't be easily stopped by other sideboard options.
Also - a neat trick I've found: Death Spark + Chandra's Phoenix = perennial fodder for Jaya much like if you were running Squee (a card I'm not at all convinced this deck needs).
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My issue with the spark/phoenix combo is that you need to see both to have infinite fodder, casting the spark and pitching the phoenix, returning the spark, casting it to get the phoenix back, discarding the phoenix, etc.
Unmitigated: True that! I find I have little need for Squee nevertheless though, since I'm casting Jaya pretty late. I drop all my dudes and one-shot burn, saving only Revel/Pillar/Spellshock and then I drop Jaya before I play one of those. After that I'm not casting spells so as not to take damage until my opponent deals with the pillar effect. Meanwhile, I convert whatever useless cards I top deck into Incinerate thanks to Jaya - it's as simple as that. She also helps to keep scroll effects on-line in so doing. The advantage of Squee would mainly be to build up long term card advantage for the super late game, but with only 25 life you only need a few Jaya activations to get there anyway, plus that plan interferes with scroll effects.
How have you found Dangerous Wager? I find it a bad replacement for Wheel of Fortune (didn't see it in the original ban list - they must have updated it), but then again almost any draw spell in red is. It's mostly been Jaya fodder, to be frank. I have considered Fiery Temper in its place since - well, it's hard to find better Jaya fodder! Bringing Chaos Warp in from the SB is another option I've contemplated.
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Not that I know of. IMO, Basilisk Collar is the better acessory for Jaya, and it's also great with a lot of the other creatures in the deck. I'd run Painters Servant if I could though
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The plan then is to play it out like a regular burn deck and ideally land Pyrostatic Pillar or Eidolon of the Great Revel as one of my last cards in hand (Spellshock is on my maybe list but I think it may be too bad to make the 49+10). Then play Jaya and Gamble for Squee, Goblin Nabob or simply use Chandra's Phoenix to get value out of her. I don't think I'll be playing her more than 2 times though, making 5 land drops a sweet spot (and discarding redundant lands to Jaya beyond that, if someone is still alive then).
Now for some cards, by category:
STRAIGHT DOME BURN
Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt: These are must includes.
Lava Spike: Not sure I like not being able to hit a creature in this format, though I suppose it can always fuel Jaya if I need it to kill a dude.
Fiery Temper: Seems solid with Jaya, and is a good Gamble target too.
Skullcrack: With its utility, I think it's good enough for the main.
Staggershock and Firebolt: I think these are the best overcosted burn spells that come with potential card advantage. I'd probably rather run a sweeper than a 3 mana distribute 3.
Price of Progress: The only MD non-basic hate worth including. Is at least an incinerate against mono-colored decks thanks to Jaya.
Magma Jet: I love me some library manipulation in mono-red so I'll be running this.
Pillar of Flame: Might be main deck material since it can stop recursion of Kitchen Finks and stuff.
Death Spark: The interaction with Jaya makes me consider this, but I think I have better options already in Squee/Phoenix.
Incinerate etc: My philosophy right now is that I shouldn't be main decking spells that are equally or less efficient than Jaya herself, so all the 3-for-2 options are autopruned to the maybe-board.
= Roughly 10 cards
HITTING PERMANENTS
Searing Blaze + Searing Blood: These are probably auto-includes as there are very few decks with no creatures that never intend to play their commander.
Smash to Smithereens: Similarly, most decks run some artifacts so this could be considered for the main.
Chaos Warp: Doesn't burn, but the implications against commanders are severe and it takes care of pesky white enchantments. I think it's main deck material.
Dead//Gone, Flame Slash, Skred, Magma Spray: All of these are solid but I doubt I'll manage to fit them all.
Shattering Spree etc: Obviously lots of stuff like this are available for the sideboard - only have 10 cards to spend though.
= Roughly 4-8 cards
SWEEPERS
Sudden Demise + Slagstorm: Both these seem like flexible MD choices that will be solid plays in any situation.
Ratchet Bomb, Powder Keg, Oblivion Stone: Slow and may affect me too. Good SB options I think, especially Ratchet Bomb.
Volcanic Fallout, Flamebreak, Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods: To double-sided to be worth it in the main IMO, but also SB considerations.
Comet Storm: It's the best of its kind but it's still much too mana-inefficient to me. I will probably pass.
= Roughly 2-3 cards for the main and 2-3 cards for the SB
CREATURES
Squee, Goblin Nabob + Chandra's Phoenix: Mostly for fueling Jaya, but the phoenix is also a solid threat that needs exiling.
Goblin Guide: Agressive, and I don't really care about opposing land totals (especially with moon effects in the side).
Vexing Devil: Don't mind if I do!
Monastery Swiftspear: I reckon this will be about as solid as Goblin Guide, but I could see not including it.
Grim Lavamancer: Jaya's baby brother who makes use of the scraps she discards.
Hellspark Elemental: Seems made for this deck.
Hell's Thunder: Borderline inclusion. Eats a lot of mana :/ I think I'll probably pass.
Satyr Firedancer, Young Pyromancer, Guttersnipe, Kiln Fiend: While all of these are sort of solid, I think maybe Pyromancer is the best one. Thoughts?
Eidolon of the Great Revel + Ash Zealot: Red hate bears! What will they think of next? I like both in the main I think.
Magus of the Moon: Probably not aggressive enough for the main.
= Roughly 10 creatures for the main with a couple to consider for the side.
OTHER CONTINOUS DAMAGE SOURCES
Pyrostatic Pillar: Very nice to hide behind while discharging Incinerates as activated abilities.
Sulfuric Vortex: A must-include.
Cursed Scroll: Why not? A bit too slow for legacy burn, but I think it will shine here. A subtle synergy with Jaya too.
Repercussion: Not a source on its own but pretty much wins the aggro match-up on its own unanswered. A better MD option than Ensnaring Bridge IMO.
Isochron Scepter: Costs two cards, set's you up for a two for one and really doesn't add much to the Jaya/Squee engine already in the deck. I pass.
= About 4 cards are of great interest here.
NORMAL EDH-STAPLES
Blood Moon: For the sideboard.
Gamble: Important for the deck's main engine with Squee. If you already have Squee, you can get Fiery Temper or maybe Death Spark (Squee synergy again!) instead.
Crucible of Worlds: If this was more of a control deck and the format used big spells, I might care about making all the land drops but I think it's just too slow with the current plan.
Extraplanar Lens: I think the best option would be to play this after my 4th land drop as then it will only set me back 1 mana the turn I play it. Then I will have 6 mana+ from then on. However, I care more about what happens in the 1-3 mana game space than beyond, so I don't think this belongs when I'm happy to curve out at 5 mana.
Lightning Greaves: This could be a necessary evil. I doesn't burn, but it is good if you drop your fifth land and Jaya as well as with many other creatures in the deck. I think I'll include it.
Braid of Fire: A bit like extraplanar lens. Costs 2 mana and breaks even two turns later. Doesn't really let me make 3 drops, so it can't replace a land. I think I'll pass.
Wheel of Fortune: Since I'll be emptying my hand faster than most, I reckon this must be in the deck. Thoughts?
= About 3 cards there for the main and a couple for the board perhaps.
CUTE BUT STUPID?
Basilisk Collar: Provides Jaya with a 40 W plasma rifle. Super cute, but are there many 4+ toughness creatures in the format that a burn deck needs to worry about? Does a burn deck need to gain life? I'm thinking no on both.
Rings of Brightearth: Kind of like a Jaya clone/slave that's mostly useless when she's not around. Probably not worth it.
Wild Guess/Tormenting Voice: I think this deck will have zero need for card parity effects since everything can be an Incinerate anyway.
Distorting Lens + Scuttlemutt: Painter's Servant is banned, but these two can accomplish something similar like Basilisk Collar, but abusing Jaya's first ability instead. In an "ideal" situation, I suppose you could drop lens t2, Jaya t3, and start killing one threat or land per turn thereafter until Jaya dies, which will probably take about 3 seconds. No, I think I'll pass.
= 0 cards of interest, let me know if I'm wrong here. Collar is MAYBE a sideboard card.
OK, so this puts me at about
10 straight burn spells
4-8 spells that target permanents
2-3 sweepers
10 creatures
4 other continous sources
3 staples
= roughly 37 cards. With about 18 land, that's probably 5 too many so I'll need to be even more strict on what gets into the deck. Let me know what seems weak to you, as well as what you recommend for the mana base. I was considering keeping it simple with Mountains and a single Barbarian Ring, since Valakut has no real synergy with Jaya. Manlands are pretty bad in Legacy burn, but I'm not sure about this meta if they are worth it. Fewer Wasteland I suppose.
EDIT: I have discovered and am now also considering Act on Impulse and Dangerous Wager - seems like two great draw spells for mono red burn really.
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Are x spells legal in this format? If so Banefire might be a good finisher, where can I find a format rules?
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
My very preliminary goldfishing reveals that Jaya slows this deck down half the time (as in, I would have dealt 25 quicker if I had never played her). The other half, she is fantastic. She makes a 5-land hand keepable, which is a boon for burn. I'm gonna have to rethink the list for a bit, but I think I'm on to something. Probably, dedicated stuff like Squee might not be relevant - just pitch excessive land instead.
I think Banefire might be too slow for the main - basically if it couldn't work in Legacy Burn, it likely has no place here. That's just a rule of thumb though as the formats obviously differ and I know little about Tiny Leaders. After I've included 3-for-1 burn and the most efficient creatures, it's hard to say if I should go for a couple of sweepers, exiling burn, incinerate-type cards etc.
I also noticed I'd missed Keldon Marauders up there. Oh my. I'm also contemplating if Burning Wish (getting burn, artifact removal or a sweeper - say) could have a place in the deck. Decks include 10 card sideboards, FYI.
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Given your propensity for Legacy burn and the work you've done on that thread - I'm not Surprised that you've taken it to Tiny Leaders ;P. Here's my list for comparison and ideas.
1 Shrine of Burning Rage
Lands:
16 Mountain
1 Ghitu Encampment
1 Hellion Crucible
1 Teetering Peaks
Creatures:
1 Zo-Zu the Punisher
1 Vexing Devil
1 Goblin Guide
1 Ball Lightning
1 Hell's Thunder
1 Hellspark Elemental
1 Spark Elemental
1 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Keldon Marauders
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
Instants:
1 Flames of the Blood Hand
1 Incinerate
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Magma Jet
1 Searing Blaze
1 Searing Blood
1 Staggershock
Sorceries:
1 Browbeat
1 Earthquake
1 Fireball
1 Flame Rift
1 Flamebreak
1 Rift Bolt
1 Slagstorm
1 Chain Lightning
1 Combust
1 Dragon's Claw
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Flame Slash
1 Magmaquake
1 Molten Rain
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Spree
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Thunderbolt
So First off, while I'm running a similar themed deck, I'm trying out Zo-Zu, The Punisher as my general, rather than Jaya. I thought Jaya at first, due to her Versatility, but casting Zo-Zu Turn 3 is likely ALWAYS able to get in a few shocks - while also causing your opponent to think twice about making late land drops. Sure, it hurts you too, but I guess my version is a bit more suicidal than yours with Flame Rift etc..
Some cards I didn't see on your list that I highly recommend:
Shrine of Burning Rage - Now, this card needs to show up in the early game to be useful, but when it does just WOW. The growth rate on this thing is just so sick that you can routinely get it off for 7-8+ damage and be a great clock staring down your opponent.
Kargan Dragonlord - With the CMC3 restriction, ways to dump your extra mana in the late game is very useful. Getting this guy to level 4 means he will beat most creatures in the format and level 8 he becomes a MUST answer threat. Sure, path/smother etc.. can knock him down and make you lose the investment, but his inculsion is still worth consideration for the later game.
I would normally never play Ball Lightning and Spark Elemental in Legacy due to the abundance of removal. However in this format, Spot removal is at a premium and very taxed due to the abundance of creatures. As a result, these guys tend to get in for nearly the full amount which is pretty mana efficient.
Some other comments:
In my experience Sweepers (Earthquake, Flamebreak etc..) are VERY main-deackable here. By deploying your creatures properly, you can sweetly 3for1 people very easily with them. Also have others in the SB for heavy token/swarming matchups.
Still, I've only played like 5-6 matches with the deck so my experience is very limited. Seeing your list, I realized I Missed Ash Zealot entirely, and should probably find room for Cursed Scroll as well. I'd love to keep bouncing ideas around here - Tiny leaders sure is a fun format!
Edit - After writing this up and reading your list again, I went through and tightened mine up a bit with some more cards I had laying around.
Currently Playing:
RRRBurnRRR
RRRGoblinsRRR
WWWDeath & TaxesWWW
WUBRGIchoridWUBRG
Modern:
UUMerfolkUU
EDH:
BBBDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefBBB
GGGKamahl, Fist of KrosaGGG
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
RBUSedris, Traitor KingUBR
WRGUril, the MistalkerGRW
RGRosheen MeandererGR
I've given your list some thought and deduced some interesting things. With decks going no higher than 3 colors, fully pimped decks will have only 0-6 duals (if they are running shocks which is probably not necessary if you can afford the true dual, so 0-3 is more likely). However, a 3-color deck can run up to 9 fetches if it wants to and even mono-colored decks may want to run up to 4. And all decks will have at least 3 basics, probably more. So then, it makes sense that you're not running any moon effects even in the side, nor Price of Progress. So then it's better to punish fetch lands than non-basics as such, which is exactly what Zo-Zu is doing!
I'm still inclined to go with Jaya though, simply because she solves so many of the problems burn normally faces, which can pretty much all be summed up with running out of steam. Land pocket? Had to bolt that life gain creature and now all you have is glorious Mountains with your opponent at five life? Need a sink for all that mana? It's Jaya to the rescue!
I think Jaya and Zo-zu offer different deck styles, just like Ankh-burn and normal burn of Legacy (only this format makes Ankh-style burn much more viable with all them fetches). For your list, I'd recommend Ankh of Mishra as a quicker/extra Zo-zu, as well as some acceleration. Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit Guide at least. With such a focus, it probably wouldn't hurt to run Molten Rain in the main either. People won't be playing a 4th land unless they absolutely have to, and with Rain, they have to. And what if that land is a fetch that they avoided playing before? Ouch. Fewer lands and more non-land mana sources also makes your ankh-effects more one-sided.
Where Zo-zu punishes playing lands, Jaya is better off punishing playing spells with Pillar/Revel, thanks to her excellent activated ability. I think you can build a burn deck to make either of these effects work optimally and make them more one-sided, but I think it will be hard to do both. Thus, I think Jaya should run Pillar/Revel and Zo-zu should run Ankh and acceleration for Zo-zu instead (with maybe Pillar/Revel in the board if the have a relevant combo hate application in the meta).
To your recommendations!
Shrine of Burning Rage: Hmm, with Jaya I think this could work because you can always pitch it to her if you top deck it late. It also drops early like Cursed Scroll and triggers off of cards being CAST, much to the chagrin of blue players. I think I'll try it out!
Kargan Dragonlord: I think Jaya single-handedly answers the need for a late game mana sink. I think I'd rather use Cursed Scroll but I've also considered manlands as they are good with sweepers and can help me get there without needing to play Jaya. For your deck though, Kargan seems like the real deal as you won't be wanting manlands.
Ball Lightning and Spark Elemental: You know, no matter how I look at these considering your comments, I have a hard time justifying not running them. It's also the fact that there are much scarier things to worry about in my deck than Spark Elemental, so it's just a bonus for me if they remove that. And even if they block Ball Lightning it's still almost a "6-for-3, diveded as you choose" and a huge tempo blowout for any deck.
I agree with your choice of Slagstorm for the main (helps you race both when ahead and behind), but I think I would much rather have Sudden Demise than Earthquake. Your dudes will likely survive AND you can hit flyers. It doesn't go to the dome, but the damage from your remaining dudes will likely compensate - as well as being able to drop them early. By dropping creatures early and dome spells late, you not only increase the damage output over time, but also force them to play blockers into your one-sided sweeper. As for the sideboard, I'm very fond of artifact-based sweepers like Ratchet Bomb since you can blow them up immediately against tokens and manlands, but they can also handle problematic permanents.
A few cards I'd like your opinion on:
Chaos Warp: Not in your main or side. Is tucking commanders not very useful for the deck? What about CoP:Red and stuff in games 2-3?
Wheel of Fortune + Dangerous Wager: Aren't these better than Browbeat? I hate that card, personally. Target opponent chooses cake or death basically.
Ghitu Encampment, Hellion Crucible, Teetering Peaks: Are ETBT lands not too slow? What makes you prefer Crucible over Mishra/Mutavault? Have you considered Barbarian Ring and/or Shivan Gorge. Have colorless lands been a problem with RR 2-drops and Ball Lightning at all? Is 19 lands a good number (the equivalent of 23 land in a 60 card deck), especially with Zo-Zu?
Flames of the Blood Hand: Why this over Skullcrack? Do you think both could be run in the main as game 1 answers to life gain?
Fireball: Isn't this a terrible card? Wouldn't you rather want Comet Storm or Banefire?
Alright, here's a rough first draft of my Jaya list:
17 Mountain
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
CREATURES (11)
3 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (C)
1 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Spark Elemental
1 Vexing Devil
2 Ash Zealot
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Hellspark Elemental
2 Keldon Marauders
3 Chandra's Phoenix
ARTIFACTS (2)
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Shrine of Burning Rage
ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Chain Lightning
1 Lava Spike
1 Reckless Abandon
1 Rift Bolt
1 Sudden Demise
2 Burning Wish
3 Slagstorm
INSTANTS (9)
1 Death Spark
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Dangerous Wager
2 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
2 Skullcrack
3 Flames of the Blood Hand
3 Staggershock
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Banefire
1 Shattering Spree
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Chaos Warp
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Torpor Orb
I decided not to run Ball Lightning in the end because of the RRR cost and wanting to use a few man lands. I think Chandra's Phoenix and Death Spark are enough shenanigans for powering Jaya, as you'll mostly be pitching useless lands to her anyway and ONLY if you have to, hence I decided to drop the Squee/Gamble package. Not sure about the land amount, but I think it's better to err on the side of too much, since Jaya likes redundant lands anyway, plus Cursed Scroll etc. is mana hungry. The SB is also just thrown together - I eschewed grave hate with the exception of Anger of the Gods. 10 cards really isn't much to play with, especially when you want a wishboard (though the sorceries are solid in their own right regardless). Let me know what you think!
EDIT: I did some hypergeometric distributions on the land total and the correct amount appears to be surprisingly high. Check out the data in the spoiler if you're interested.
18: 18.5 + 5.3 = 23.8
19: 16.5 + 6.9 = 23.4
20: 12.9 + 8.7 = 21.6
21: 10.6 + 10.9 = 21.5
22: 8.6 + 13.3 = 21.9
So from a mulligan perspective, 20-21 lands is optimal. Now let's look at making land drops. The number of cards you've seen is roughly equal to number of turns + 6 (assuming OTD/OTP 50% of the time and mulling to an average of 6 50% of the time). So these numbers look at 20 or 21 lands and their chances of making drops on turn 3, 4 and 5, with the final number denoting chance of having seen more than 5 lands by turn 5:
20: 80.1%; 65.7%; 49.2%; 24.0%
21: 84.4%; 71.0%; 55.5%; 29.2%
So with 21 land, you're roughly 5% more likely to have redundant land by turn 5, but also about 5% more likely to make your third, fourth and fifth land drops. However, having seen 5 lands by turn 5 means having seen 6 spells and each additional land is one more spell lost (this is where Jaya comes in obviously). With 25 life, this means each will have to contribute more than 4 points of damage, which it probably won't, which in turn means that 20 is better than 21 and that the lands must contribute with damage potential (through Jaya or by themselves). These numbers have really given me food for thought and I'll continue to ponder them. My goal will be to make this into a consistent t5 gold fish, and optimize from there.
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Bösium Strip? A repeatable mini colorless Yawgmoth's Will.
Hammer of Bogardan? 3 for 3 isn't so great however once you hit five mana you can keep returning it to your hand. Synergy well Braid of Fire.
Humble Defector? Card draw.
Mizzium Mortars? 2 mana x/4 removal or 6 mana x/4 sweeper.
Pyromancer's Swath? Suddenly that Sudden Demise only needs to cost 1R to sweep the board of X/3 creatures.
Stigma Lasher? If you manage to get one hit in with this little elemental no more lifegain for the opponent for the rest of the game.
Magus of the Scroll? To go with that Cursed Scroll.
Red Sun's Zenith? It keeps getting shuffled back into your deck making it reusable burn.
Arcane Lighthouse? To take care of threats with hexproof or shroud.
My Other Thoughts
Satyr Firedancer: Is usually hit by removal because of the value he gives you out of your various burn spells. Suddenly that Lightning Bolt is dealing 3 to your opponent and 3 to one of that opponent's creatures.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Words of War? Don't feel like drawing? Shock it to em.
Spellshock? Bumps your Eidolon and Pillar to three.
Pulse of the Forge? Use it in when your opponent is ahead in life and it will always come back to you.
My experimentation so far leads me to belive that it is hard to design the typical kind of racing, non-interactive Burn deck that we see in Legacy, largely due to the 25 life total. A turn 5 goldfish is doable, but you will have to rely on creatures and Jaya to get there consistently (I omit the lengthy evidence). This will inevitably lead to combat and attrition, and bolts acting as removal rather than dome-damage. I think the best option if you want to go all-out Burn and race is Zo-zu. For this format however, I much prefere an interactive play style so I will focus more on aggro control. This means dropping stuff like Lava Spike in favor of stuff that provide board advantages when you cast spells (like Satyr Firedancer). It also favors robust threats like Kargan Dragonlord and Stigma Lasher over stuff like Vexing Devil and Spark Elemental. Basically, my go-to strategy will be this:
Phase 1: I play cheap threats like Goblin Guide and Ash Zealot together with any stuff that triggers off of instants/sorceries being cast or damage being dealt such as Monastery Swiftspear, Satyr Firedancer, Young Pyromancer etc. (This is turn 1-2 or maybe 3).
Phase 2: I start picking off opposing threats with spells, gaining incremental advantages off my triggers doing so, and forcing my opponent to play more threats. All while beating with dudes and manlands on a largely empty field. (This is turn 3-4 or maybe 5).
Phase 3: I play Jaya Ballard and preferable one other source of repeatable damage, like Lavamancer or a scroll-effect. Then, as my last card before untapping with Jaya, I play Pyrostatic Pillar or Eidolon. I then sit comfortably using activated abilities, man lands and remaining creatures to kill opposing threats and deal damage, all while forcing my opponent to deal with Pillar/Eidolon.
Phase 4: If there is a phase 4, I will now have accumulated a density of cheap burn while waiting for Pillar/Eidolon to be handled and can finish off my opponent as soon as this happens.
I think this is a solid plan that sort of tells you what cards belong and don't belong in the deck, but I don't have time to post an updated list right now (will edit and include one later this day, hopefully). As for your card suggestion:
Good thinking, but they mostly only work for this purpose if the mill deck mills to hand rather than to graveyard. I'll look into this some more though.
Suggestions by Desert_Walker:
Bösium Strip - too slow I think, will consider.
Hammer of Bogardan - as above.
Humble Defector - too bad, not a chance
Mizzium Mortars - probable inclusion with the new focus on the deck.
Pyromancer's Swath - not worth it IMO, not completely sure though.
Stigma Lasher - a solid utility beater, just what I need - thanks.
Magus of the Scroll - just what I need, thanks.
Red Sun's Zenith - yawn, no.
Arcane Lighthouse - too narrow to merit a colorless land main deck and I'd rather have a sweeper from the board I think.
Satyr Firedancer - probably needed in the main yeah.
Circle of Flame - it's good on paper, but I think too easy to play around. Tokens will be pumped, hexproof dudes enchanted.
Words of War - worse than my general and much worse than scroll effects. Pass.
Spellshock - needs testing. I don't want redundant effects like these, but I'm not sure 2 is the correct number - could be 3, we'll see.
Pulse of the Forge - if my opponent is ahead on life, I'm doing something wrong. Also no longer want straight dome burn.
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18 Mountain
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
CREATURES (12)
3 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (C)
1 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Magus of the Scroll
1 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Ash Zealot
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Kiln Fiend
2 Satyr Firedancer
2 Stigma Lasher
2 Young Pyromancer
3 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Shrine of Burning Rage
ENCHANTMENTS (3)
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Spellshock
SORCERIES (7)
1 Chain Lightning
1 Firebolt
1 Rift Bolt
1 Sudden Demise
2 Burning Wish
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Wheel of Fortune
1 Death Spark
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
3 Staggershock
Maybeboard:
Spellshock: Probably my top consideration. A third effect like this would not go amiss, and I can pitch redundant copies to Jaya.Skred/Flame Slash: Efficient, but are only good against dudes. I think 2x Searing + Satyr Firedancer is enough of that already. Some decks are very creature-light and boarding many cards out becomes a problem.
Repercussion: A bit too slow and narrow for the main, but a strong consideration for the side.
Suggestions on cuts to fit Spellshock are appreciated! I know I want 20 land thoughEDIT: Some goldfishing revealed I had way more 2-drop dudes than necessary. I also never seemed to have enough mana to pump Kargan Dragonlord (this deck is surprisingly mana hungry! You can definetely use the first 6 land drops but you're only in a rush to make the first three). So I cut it for Spellshock and the list seems really tight now. Gonna go work on the sideboard.
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EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
Not really sure what you mean with "Hardcore burn", but if you mean being non-interactive and having a quick clock without really using the red zone much, then yeah it's not a very good strategy for the format IMO. The good thing is you can always have that as a back-up plan on the fly when playing Jaya, since she turns everything into Incinerate. So if a turn 5 goldfish is exactly what you need (say against mill or combo), she will deliver almost no matter how you build your deck. But most of the time you can do much better than that - the turn you win is not as important as making sure your opponent never wins before you regardless.
The Jaya list I'm working on seems pretty far from lackluster to me. Basically your opponent only gets to keep the toughest of threats (like True-Name Nemesis and occasionally Geist of ST) and the rest are merely there to never untap and die to my roughly 17 removal spells that mostly double as finishers. Meanwhile my threats grow and swing and demand answering in turn. When that's done, the real game begins where I abuse activated abilities under pillar effects, forcing my opponent to either do nothing or play useless threats that will deal him damage and then die instantly. Hey, it sounds fun to me!
That said, if LD is what you wanna go for, I'd take a look at Zozu and the discussion above. Now you can go pretty far into the LD concept in mono red, and have no real need for Corpse Danse or Seismic Mage either - look no further than Dwarven Miner and Dwarven Blastminer for starters. With Zozu and/or Ankh of Mishra, you again put the opponent in the position of doing nothing or taking damage from playing lands that you will only destroy. I think it can be a solid concept too, but I prefer Jaya myself.
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Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
I think it's more of a cute card. You see, dealing non-combat damage to the opponent is more of a late game thing when you're using activated abilities (like Jaya) under a Pyrostatic Pillar-effect, having exhausted opposing threats. Unless you have Satyr Firedancer, most of those bolts are going to hit creatures in the early-mid game. So a card like Kiln Fiend is much better to take advantage from this game plan than Chandra's Spitfire. Chandra would likely come down later as a win more card that works best when you're already winning.
I have however reconsidered Basilisk Collar and there's hardly a match-up it doesn't improve. I think I want Sulfuric Vortex in the board and the collar in the main.
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3 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
//Artifact (2)
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Shrine of Burning Rage
//Creature (11)
2 Ash Zealot
3 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Hellspark Elemental
1 Kiln Fiend
1 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Spark Elemental
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Stigma Lasher
2 Young Pyromancer
//Enchantment (2)
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Sulfuric Vortex
//Enchantment Creature (2)
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Satyr Firedancer
2 Dangerous Wager
1 Dead // Gone
1 Death Spark
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet
1 Magma Spray
2 Searing Blood
2 Skullcrack
//Sorcery (6)
3 Act on Impulse
2 Burning Wish
3 Rift Bolt
3 Slagstorm
1 Spite of Mogis
1 Sudden Demise
//Land (18)
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Mishra's Factory
14 Mountain
1 Mutavault
1 Shivan Gorge
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Blood Moon
1 Chain Lightning
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Shattering Spree
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Zo-Zu the Punisher
Right now I am iffy about Basilisk Collar, Act on Impulse, and Dead // Gone. I also wasn't a big fan of Cursed Scroll but I might be willing to give it another go. Molten Rain is another card that I should try out.
Any thoughts and how has your deck testing been going?
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
16 Mountain
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Shivan Gorge
CREATURES (12)
3 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (C)
1 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Magus of the Scroll
1 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Ash Zealot
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Kiln Fiend
2 Satyr Firedancer
2 Stigma Lasher
2 Young Pyromancer
3 Chandra's Phoenix
ARTIFACTS (3)
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Shrine of Burning Rage
ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Spellshock
1 Chain Lightning
1 Firebolt
1 Sudden Demise
2 Burning Wish
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Rift Bolt
INSTANTS (7)
1 Death Spark
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Dangerous Wager
2 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
3 Staggershock
wish board (3)
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Pillage
1 Banefire
1 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Chaos Warp
3 Sulfuric Vortex
I keep a super-tight wishboard of 3 targets that offer spot removal of artifact/land/creature, exiling mass removal and unstoppable finishers. You could probably run 4 targets, but beyond that I'm sure the returns are diminishing and you're better off with other sideboard choices. If you can figure out a way to squeeze in more functionality in three slots, let me know! Artifacts also offer a lot. The needle/revoker really depends on what you see in your meta - you could run Torpor Orb or Relic of Progenitus etc. too here. Ratchet Bomb, Ensnaring Bridge and Chaos Warp seem mandatory SB tools to me for pretty much all metas. It's hard to say no to Smash too, if you have room. Sulfuric Vortex is a must main or side, but I've found I'd rather avoid antisynergy with Basilisk Collar in the main and bring in Vortex in its place against match-ups with superior life gain that can't be easily stopped by other sideboard options.
Also - a neat trick I've found: Death Spark + Chandra's Phoenix = perennial fodder for Jaya much like if you were running Squee (a card I'm not at all convinced this deck needs).
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How have you found Dangerous Wager? I find it a bad replacement for Wheel of Fortune (didn't see it in the original ban list - they must have updated it), but then again almost any draw spell in red is. It's mostly been Jaya fodder, to be frank. I have considered Fiery Temper in its place since - well, it's hard to find better Jaya fodder! Bringing Chaos Warp in from the SB is another option I've contemplated.
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
22 Mountain
1 Wasteland
CREATURES (9)
3 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (C)
1 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ash Zealot
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Kiln Fiend
2 Satyr Firedancer
3 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
ARTIFACTS (4)
2 Distorting Lens
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Shrine of Burning Rage
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Spellshock
SORCERIES (6)
1 Chain Lightning
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Firebolt
1 Sudden Demise
2 Pyroclasm
3 Anger of the Gods
INSTANTS (6)
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Dangerous Wager
2 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
3 Staggershock
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Pillage
1 Banefire
1 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Chaos Warp
1 Vandalblast
1 Arcane Lighthouse
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Shattering Spree
I have definitely taken the control, I can't turn away from winning off inferno muahahahha