I'm not sure if anyone will actually end up reading this, but I just wanted to share this idea I was inspired to start working on.
I think about horde every so often and come up with all kinds of terrible ideas, but one idea I really liked was using the HumanWolf DFC hybrid token for a werewolf horde. But the obvious logistical issue here is that flipping every token in a horde deck and resleeving them is just not convenient. Another problem was that fifty wolf//human flip tokens is stupid expensive.
So the idea needed some work. The solution I came up with to this problem is pretty basic:
Play the horde in clear penny-sleeves and that way not only is transforming the tokens easier but also actual werewolves.
It also means I can actually just double-sleeve normal wolf tokens with normal human tokens rather than use all promos. This solution however, was not without it's own pitfalls. The first is that you always know the very next card in the horde. The second, is that there's a weird situation where half the cards on the field are unflipped and you need to keep track of the ones that were flipped and it might get messy. The former is an inherient problem, and I wrote it off as such; it's not a huge deal anyway. The latter was solved by what I thought was another great solution:
When it's "night" it's night for the cards in the deck as well, so you can just physically invert the deck with the tokens whenever the transition happened. Literally, you'd just flip the deck over and deal from the bottom.
This new idea allowed for what I think is the coolest aspect of the theoretical horde deck. You could have every spell have a day version and a night version. Your Kessig Malcontents by day could, under the cover of nightfall, go out freeing wolves as Kessig Cagebreakers. Your Howl of the Night Pack, could during the day be a different kind of rallying cry. It seemed perfect.
But there was one final issue that needed to be adressed, that in a horde game it'll never be night time. There's almost never an instance where noone is casting any spells and if there isn't a night time, then the duality of the deck doesn't actually matter. So I tossed the standard trigger; you just completely ignore the default day/night change in favor of a new system. This is where a new card was added to the list: Moonmist // Break of Day. Moonmist is a day side card that works just as is written on the card. Break of Day is the night side of the card that also works as printed, except it also changes the deck to daytime-mode. There would be many of these cards in the deck, and hitting them would be just like hitting a token so that this will happen a fair amount and not mess with the flow of the deck.
This list is by no means finalized. I'm completely open to critisism and new ideas for list, so please share them.
Additional Rules:
- Ignore normal day/night triggers.
- Break of Day transitions to day when cast.
- Treat Moonmist/Break of Day like a token and continue flipping after it.
- Kessig Cagebreakers only counts nontokens
- Howl of the Night pack is based on the current turn number.
- Immerwolf applies to wolves as well.
I think you need at least a few wrath effects like damnation or plague wind. I know this wouldn't happen often, but a moat, or protected wall of glare could really stop this thing in its tracks.
Maybe primal rage to give your wolves trample, or a few more anthem effects, like collective blessing to give your wolves oomph. An unaided kruin striker and a couple wolves coming at the survivors is just not that scary.
I think you need at least a few wrath effects like damnation or plague wind. I know this wouldn't happen often, but a moat, or protected wall of glare could really stop this thing in its tracks.
Maybe primal rage to give your wolves trample, or a few more anthem effects, like collective blessing to give your wolves oomph. An unaided kruin striker and a couple wolves coming at the survivors is just not that scary.
It'd be an unaided Kruin Striker and humans! But I get your point. The daytime side needs a lot more anthems, and the nighttime side probably needs a handful of things giving trample.
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Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
With regards to the moat problem, my group has an "evolving ban list." Pretty much anything that'll permanently stop the horde from attacking (moat, ensnaring bridge, etc.) is banned, as are creature type hosers, a fair number of color hosers (light of day), and anything that'll let you dig through the horde's deck and take out its best cards (denying wind, quash, et cetera). I'd suggest the same for your group if your meta involves enough cards like that... especially the no searching part.
*Shrugs* I was going for flavor over function. There aren't a whole lot of sun-flavored cards that I'd recommend for a Horde deck and full moon's rise seems like it should be in your deck. Wheel of sun and moon would make the horde immortal. Celestial dawn is useless. You don't have a whole lot of light creatures so light from within won't help much.
EDIT: I meant "white," not "light."
I'll let you know if I come up with any more abominations. In the meanwhile, if you flip the rise into the light, just cast it as though it had flash. Or stab it through the heart with a silver blade. That'll probably work better than a counterspell.
I think you need at least a few wrath effects like damnation or plague wind. I know this wouldn't happen often, but a moat, or protected wall of glare could really stop this thing in its tracks.
Maybe primal rage to give your wolves trample, or a few more anthem effects, like collective blessing to give your wolves oomph. An unaided kruin striker and a couple wolves coming at the survivors is just not that scary.
I agree that you want things that clear the board. Side note though, cards like moat, silent arbiter, and other things that effectively null combat are banned in this format (from my understanding at least)
----
- take out the assassin tokens or nix the kill an opponent on damage.
- you may want cards that interact more with wolves, like master of the wild hunt
- when i listed out my horde decks, i tiered them by power level and made sure that there would be an appropriate level for any number of players up to 5 players.
i.e. tokens were level 1; cards that were just above tokens were level 2, lords and wrath effects were level 3, great effects or GY reshuffle were level 4
First off, this is a very cool idea. Makes me wish I hadn't just ordered cards for a Zombie horde deck.
I think your method of flipping the deck is cool, but I'm not sure how Moonmist // Break of Day would work if more than one was flipped. I think either the 12 should not count towards the normal 100 cards, or you should just come up with a random means of switching day to night. Also, do you flip over every permanent with each sun rise/set?
You could sleeve the Moonmist and Break of Day cards normally and have a separate deck. At the beginning of each of the Horde's turns, you flip the first card, and transition as necessary. I think this would alleviate knowing what the next card on the top of the deck is a bit since the deck may flip anyways.
And people keep talking of a ban list for this. It would seem to me that making decks specifically to combat a horde would defeat the purpose, and maybe a rule for cards like Moat would be better. For example, instead of removing it from your deck, simply pay its mana cost to cycle it.
Dude, this is brilliant. Wheel of sun and moon wouldn't actually make the horde deck immortal, it would only make it immortal while it is face up. You could also just force the players to have enchantment removal or die.
I really liked the fracturing gusts // plague wind idea. You should have at least 2 of those in my opinion. I'd probably try to run 4 since I can't think of any other awesome destruction spells. They are awesome because they wreck the players' board positions so it forces them to keep fighting for control over the board. It's key to making horde awesome.
I'm not sure how you're doing it, but won't having nontokens that are tokens during night mean that they come out more during the night? That's actually a pretty awesome interaction. You could make more stuff come out during the night, and then during the day, everything is scary. I was thinking though that you could switch them out for stronger wolves. I'm not sure how competitive the people you play with are, but I feel like your deck is not strong enough.
actually, i cant believe i've missed this for so long.. i just got stuff to make a werewolf deck, and man, this is so much cooler than what i had in mind! hope you dont mind if i just use it.
how does it run though? have u tested it? does it feel kinda scary when night falls? can't wait to try sleeving it up!
i just went out and got all the doublesided cards from everyone i knew and made something similar to this.
except that every 3 turns, the sun rises, then 3 turns later, the moon rises, 3 turns later, the sun goes, and so on.
However, only the cards that have the moon/sun symbol on the top corner flips. the others don't. so on the back of immerwolf, lone wolf and sound the call, i have flavourfull stuff like cemetery gate or instants like break of day and moonmist (which transforms all werewolves). that way, the cemetary gate and stone wall dont transform into some instant, and the others are non-permanents that dont matter so much. i also squeezed in a cultural exchange, which works by trading away as many human-werewolves as a player has creatures, then when night comes, the werewolves return to the village (in other words, cultural exchange works a bit like a sweeper, albeit a very very clunky one).
Instead of flipping till you hit a non-token, flip 2 cards, plus 1 per player after the first. during the daytime, flip another 1 card per 2 humans in the werewolf village.
during the daytime, humans cower in fear, so they dont attack. But at night, the werewolves attacks. we would choose blockers to a maximum of 1 per attacker on a self-preservating mindset.
On the start of the 3rd day, elbrus, the binding blade comes in, and is always equipped by the werewolf/human with the biggest power. if he hits, it transforms (and doesnt transform back). if it turns to night, it transforms as well.
dunno if what we made up would work for u guys.. we generally sport themed decks, so it was kinda funny watching a skeleton ship pirate theme and Ayesha Tanaka banding like a boss deck taking it to the werewolf infested village! we were doing well till mr withengar unbound rocked up and whooped us.
It also might be fun to play around with the dual nature of werewolves. For example, Hamlet Captain, who benefits your other creatures by day, could turn into a Lone Wolf at night. Lone Wolf can have a special rule that it deals combat damage to the creature if it can kill that creature, and to a player if not.
Alternatively, and actually, I like this idea a bit better, turn Hamlet Captain into a Timberpack Wolf since you have four of them.
I agree that Crusader of Odric shouldn't be a wolfir. Here are my suggestions:
Like I said, have Hamlet Captain turn into Timberpack Wolf
Have Kruin Striker turn into Wandering Wolf
Replace Crusader of Odric with Unruly Mob. This means they either have to kill it, or it's going to grow huge. Are we playing by rules where Horde has haste? Or no haste? Haste makes mob fairly bad, as they'll just kill it. Either way, change the flip side into Wolf Pack.
i've found at least on my werewolf list that moonmist can be quite backbreaking especially if the players aren't really expecting it. 12 seems like a bit high a number to me.
I literally just ordered this. Props for coming up with the idea, it seems absolutely a blast to play. One thing I did add to your list : Blood Moon which flips to be Wheel of Sun and Moon as a really strong enchantment that players will have to work around. It makes attacking the horde of humans nonproductive while making the wolves harder to deal with. Plus it fits the flavor
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So the idea needed some work. The solution I came up with to this problem is pretty basic:
Play the horde in clear penny-sleeves and that way not only is transforming the tokens easier but also actual werewolves.
It also means I can actually just double-sleeve normal wolf tokens with normal human tokens rather than use all promos. This solution however, was not without it's own pitfalls. The first is that you always know the very next card in the horde. The second, is that there's a weird situation where half the cards on the field are unflipped and you need to keep track of the ones that were flipped and it might get messy. The former is an inherient problem, and I wrote it off as such; it's not a huge deal anyway. The latter was solved by what I thought was another great solution:
When it's "night" it's night for the cards in the deck as well, so you can just physically invert the deck with the tokens whenever the transition happened. Literally, you'd just flip the deck over and deal from the bottom.
This new idea allowed for what I think is the coolest aspect of the theoretical horde deck. You could have every spell have a day version and a night version. Your Kessig Malcontents by day could, under the cover of nightfall, go out freeing wolves as Kessig Cagebreakers. Your Howl of the Night Pack, could during the day be a different kind of rallying cry. It seemed perfect.
But there was one final issue that needed to be adressed, that in a horde game it'll never be night time. There's almost never an instance where noone is casting any spells and if there isn't a night time, then the duality of the deck doesn't actually matter. So I tossed the standard trigger; you just completely ignore the default day/night change in favor of a new system. This is where a new card was added to the list: Moonmist // Break of Day. Moonmist is a day side card that works just as is written on the card. Break of Day is the night side of the card that also works as printed, except it also changes the deck to daytime-mode. There would be many of these cards in the deck, and hitting them would be just like hitting a token so that this will happen a fair amount and not mess with the flow of the deck.
And that's where I'm at now.
25 Human Token (White) // Wolf Token (Green)
4 Assassin Token // Wolf Token (Black)
12 Moonmist // Break of Day
4 Hamlet Captain // Wolf Token (Green)
1 Kessig Malcontents // Kessig Cagebreakers
3 Riot Ringleader // Pyreheart Wolf
2 Rally the Peasants // Howl of the Night Pack
3 Immerwolf // Immerwolf
2 Crusader of Odric // Wolfir Avenger
2 Kruin Striker // Wolf Token (Green)
2 Kruin Outlaw
2 Instigator Gang
3 Ulvenwald Mystics
3 Mondronen Shaman
3 Grizzled Outcasts
4 Mayor of Avabruck
Human Token (Red)
Assassin Token
Wolf Token (Green)
Wolf Token (Black)
Additional Rules:
- Ignore normal day/night triggers.
- Break of Day transitions to day when cast.
- Treat Moonmist/Break of Day like a token and continue flipping after it.
- Kessig Cagebreakers only counts nontokens
- Howl of the Night pack is based on the current turn number.
- Immerwolf applies to wolves as well.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Maybe primal rage to give your wolves trample, or a few more anthem effects, like collective blessing to give your wolves oomph. An unaided kruin striker and a couple wolves coming at the survivors is just not that scary.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
It'd be an unaided Kruin Striker and humans! But I get your point. The daytime side needs a lot more anthems, and the nighttime side probably needs a handful of things giving trample.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
glorious anthem // primal rage?
divine light // full moon's rise?
With regards to the moat problem, my group has an "evolving ban list." Pretty much anything that'll permanently stop the horde from attacking (moat, ensnaring bridge, etc.) is banned, as are creature type hosers, a fair number of color hosers (light of day), and anything that'll let you dig through the horde's deck and take out its best cards (denying wind, quash, et cetera). I'd suggest the same for your group if your meta involves enough cards like that... especially the no searching part.
These were all a good idea until you tried to put a sorcery on the back of an enchantment. What's wrong with you man!
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
EDIT: I meant "white," not "light."
I'll let you know if I come up with any more abominations. In the meanwhile, if you flip the rise into the light, just cast it as though it had flash. Or stab it through the heart with a silver blade. That'll probably work better than a counterspell.
If my playgroup ends up liking the zombie horde deck I make this will be the next horde deck i make.
also
He already does!?
Werebear would be flavorful with another bear to that back of it, but doesnt really synergize at all.
Did you consider Greater Werewolf at all?
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I agree that you want things that clear the board. Side note though, cards like moat, silent arbiter, and other things that effectively null combat are banned in this format (from my understanding at least)
----
- take out the assassin tokens or nix the kill an opponent on damage.
- you may want cards that interact more with wolves, like master of the wild hunt
- when i listed out my horde decks, i tiered them by power level and made sure that there would be an appropriate level for any number of players up to 5 players.
i.e. tokens were level 1; cards that were just above tokens were level 2, lords and wrath effects were level 3, great effects or GY reshuffle were level 4
so in zombies; the 2/2 zombie token and the 1/1 zombie wizard are level 1, gravecrawler, cackling fiend, and ashen ghoul are level 2, unbreathing horde and undead warchief are level 3 cards, and the level 4 cards are zombie apocalypse, patriarch's bidding, lim dul the necromancer, mikaeus the unhallowed, and endless ranks of the dead
there are 150 cards total; for each player there should be 1 lv 4 card, 5 lv 3 cards, 10 lv 2 cards, and 14 lv 1 cards.
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Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
I think your method of flipping the deck is cool, but I'm not sure how Moonmist // Break of Day would work if more than one was flipped. I think either the 12 should not count towards the normal 100 cards, or you should just come up with a random means of switching day to night. Also, do you flip over every permanent with each sun rise/set?
You could sleeve the Moonmist and Break of Day cards normally and have a separate deck. At the beginning of each of the Horde's turns, you flip the first card, and transition as necessary. I think this would alleviate knowing what the next card on the top of the deck is a bit since the deck may flip anyways.
And people keep talking of a ban list for this. It would seem to me that making decks specifically to combat a horde would defeat the purpose, and maybe a rule for cards like Moat would be better. For example, instead of removing it from your deck, simply pay its mana cost to cycle it.
I really liked the fracturing gusts // plague wind idea. You should have at least 2 of those in my opinion. I'd probably try to run 4 since I can't think of any other awesome destruction spells. They are awesome because they wreck the players' board positions so it forces them to keep fighting for control over the board. It's key to making horde awesome.
I'm not sure how you're doing it, but won't having nontokens that are tokens during night mean that they come out more during the night? That's actually a pretty awesome interaction. You could make more stuff come out during the night, and then during the day, everything is scary. I was thinking though that you could switch them out for stronger wolves. I'm not sure how competitive the people you play with are, but I feel like your deck is not strong enough.
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RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
how does it run though? have u tested it? does it feel kinda scary when night falls? can't wait to try sleeving it up!
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
except that every 3 turns, the sun rises, then 3 turns later, the moon rises, 3 turns later, the sun goes, and so on.
However, only the cards that have the moon/sun symbol on the top corner flips. the others don't. so on the back of immerwolf, lone wolf and sound the call, i have flavourfull stuff like cemetery gate or instants like break of day and moonmist (which transforms all werewolves). that way, the cemetary gate and stone wall dont transform into some instant, and the others are non-permanents that dont matter so much. i also squeezed in a cultural exchange, which works by trading away as many human-werewolves as a player has creatures, then when night comes, the werewolves return to the village (in other words, cultural exchange works a bit like a sweeper, albeit a very very clunky one).
Instead of flipping till you hit a non-token, flip 2 cards, plus 1 per player after the first. during the daytime, flip another 1 card per 2 humans in the werewolf village.
during the daytime, humans cower in fear, so they dont attack. But at night, the werewolves attacks. we would choose blockers to a maximum of 1 per attacker on a self-preservating mindset.
On the start of the 3rd day, elbrus, the binding blade comes in, and is always equipped by the werewolf/human with the biggest power. if he hits, it transforms (and doesnt transform back). if it turns to night, it transforms as well.
dunno if what we made up would work for u guys.. we generally sport themed decks, so it was kinda funny watching a skeleton ship pirate theme and Ayesha Tanaka banding like a boss deck taking it to the werewolf infested village! we were doing well till mr withengar unbound rocked up and whooped us.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Alternatively, and actually, I like this idea a bit better, turn Hamlet Captain into a Timberpack Wolf since you have four of them.
I agree that Crusader of Odric shouldn't be a wolfir. Here are my suggestions:
Like I said, have Hamlet Captain turn into Timberpack Wolf
Have Kruin Striker turn into Wandering Wolf
Replace Crusader of Odric with Unruly Mob. This means they either have to kill it, or it's going to grow huge. Are we playing by rules where Horde has haste? Or no haste? Haste makes mob fairly bad, as they'll just kill it. Either way, change the flip side into Wolf Pack.
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i've found at least on my werewolf list that moonmist can be quite backbreaking especially if the players aren't really expecting it. 12 seems like a bit high a number to me.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
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Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
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RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)