Feldon's Cane is there to protect my graveyard mid and late game against things like Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, etc. that could impede the Ghostly Flicker engine. Having to rebuild after using it is challenging but can be done. By that point in the game you should have a boat load of land out so what's left of your library will be mostly business. Losing a few cards early is okay as the deck has some redundancy built in but late game it can be much more painful.
I see how this can be useful in your deck. To me, Ghostly Flicker adds so little over MmW that I wouldn't bother including cards to protect it. It saves me 1 mana and let's me blink at instant speed (good for some ETB-abilities, bad against sweepers) IF I have a Scrivener clone. Also, I'm more likely to care about the other dude I'm flickering with it than something in my yard, as that would actually require TWO recursion bears. Almost anything that's worth recurring in this deck comes in multiple copies and different tutor categories and card types to make the engines hard to dismantle. For example, if I'm holding the fort with MmW, Dawn Charm and Archaeomancer and something bad happens, I might just wizardcycle for Dawnglare Invoker instead or drop that Stonehorn Dignitary that I had been sandbagging all along.
Actually, now that I think about it, I think Ghostly Flicker fills the same function as Feldon's Cane fills in yours, if that makes sense. It's my back-up plan if something bad happens to Mistmeadow Witch so I can keep flickering. Your primary flicker engine IS Ghostly Flicker, so then it makes sense to protect it with Cane I think
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I really appreciate you both chiming in.
With the friends I am playing am moving towards playing these types of pauper decks.
I find that the Cane protects as others are sweeping the board and I need to restart up.
Once someone realizes how close I am to locking the board down the whole table will do whatever is needed to stop it from happening. I think I am used to playing with insurance policies.
I think the cane and gargoyle act in that way for me.
I am still playing this as the list is now, just trying to see what is needed in my meta.
For instance I thought I needed a bigger finisher like Ulamog Crusher, but because my meta is full of steals and Bribery, I decided against it. I will just nickel and dime them to death.
Both decks have really great plays. I will let you know how it goes for me.
I am usually playing at lunch with about 2-4 other people. So this is more multiplayer games for me.
The two games I won one on one, once I was a turn ahead and could recur a counter spell, they had no chance of winning.
After some more long term changes, I made some adjustments to the deck:
+1 Kor Skyfisher
+1 Dream Stalker
+1 Rhystic Study
-1 Ur-Golem's Eye
-1 Sisay's Ring
-1 Echoing Truth
The enchantment based removal engines have just been GREAT so I wanted to include more engine parts to ensure I have an enchantment bouncer as often as possible. The artifact ramp has been good late game, but I feel I sometimes lose too much tempo from playing them. Truth was cut as a meta consideration (not many token decks) and because I have answers to tokens already, AND because I added Skyfisher/Stalker. Rhystic Study is in, for being generally awesome regardless of what opponents choose.
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It's probably the worst of the blink effects as it returns at EoT and the +1/+1 counter is mostly irrelevant. Meh, it might be good enough to run anyway. The list is pretty tight though. You could probably cut a draw spell for it as it will often function like one anyway.
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It's probably the worst of the blink effects as it returns at EoT and the +1/+1 counter is mostly irrelevant. Meh, it might be good enough to run anyway. The list is pretty tight though. You could probably cut a draw spell for it as it will often function like one anyway.
Yeah, I guess if you're going to play it you'll probably play turn to mist over it, since the counter doesn't matter if you think you're gonna keep blinking whatever it is.
I'm trying out petals of insight and I feel like it will be good though I dislike that it's a sorcery it gives us reusable digging power.
Yeah, if only petals was an instant! I had considered it though, even at sorcery speed - let me know how you like it.
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Just got into PDH. Found most of the cards here.
The deck itself is good. But I'm finding it hard to win against a Mono Blue Jace's Phantasm deck with pure counters/draws
It sure can! There have been a few considerables since I last updated the primer, but competition is tough for ETB dudes that really matter.
Tuned mono-blue lists will always be challenging 1v1, but the witch has a better shot than many thanks to her ability. You basically only need to stick her once, and she costs 2 mana to cast so... Try sneaking her under the counter radar turn 2. By turn 4, she'll protect herself against bounce. Jace's Phantasm is a useless wincon against an active witch, and with enough mana on the board you can attempt to stick a full lock down piece like Gulf Squid and end the game there.
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I know this is a pretty big necro, but since this thread is the Primer I figured I would post my deck here. It's mostly based on urdjur's list with a few adjustments and new cards added:
- Lost in the Mist and Contradict: I've played a few games in which I simply accumulate a ton card advantage by blocking with Mnemonic Wall / Archaeomancer / Scrivener, blinking it with Witch, and returning one of these counters to counter something relevant while drawing cards and bouncing stuff ad nauseam. Although it's mana intensive, it can slow opponents down to a crawl even in multiplayer, and is specially effective in 1vs1.
- Commander's Sphere over Darksteel Ingot: Basically a card draw engine with Sanctum Gargoyle that also reduces Witch's blinking cost by 1. Indestructible rarely mattered anyways since no one goes around blowing up mana rocks, let alone blowing a rock against a bicolored deck which you wont color screw anyways. And if someone aims destruction at it, I can sac it in response.
- Ivory Giant over Dawnglare Invoker: Has a better body and taps down ALL the table, not just an opponent's (minus White creatures, which I can take out with removal or simply let other players take care of them) for half the mana on Dawnglare Invoker. I can simply tap opponents out before my turn and then strike them down one by one.
I haven't had room for Vedalken Dismisser yet since I play mainly on Multiplayer and the lock is less effective here, but I'm certainly planning to include him ASAP since I also play some games of 1vs1 here and there and he's not that bad in Multi, so what should I take out? Also what's the deal with Gulf Squid? Perhaps I'm being dumb and missing something, but since Mistmeadow Witch returns the guy EoT, there's no way to tap an opponent's lands on his Untap step after he / she untaps them, whether I blink Squid on my turn or his / hers.
Some things I'm also considering are Griffin Dreamfinder and Remember the Fallen for the recursion package and Cloudshift and Æther Tradewinds for the bouncing one. Also a bit more of protection like Neurok Stealthsuit, Alexi's Cloak (over Diplomatic Immunity since Cloak can be cast at instant speed, which is the one I operate by default when I have the Witch already set up) or one or two counterspells more. I'm kind of reluctant to test the Reality Acid package though since although Acid itself is good (but slow), it implies including some copies of really subpar creatures in a multiplayer environment, and I think I'm loaded on efficient and diverse removal anyways.
I can see how Lost in the Mist could be a pretty good engine card in this deck. I'm not sure spreading the recursion across other card types is the way to go though. I ran Auramancer due to heavy focus on Reality Acid, but supporting both Gargoyle and Auramancer means fewer good instants/sorceries and less support for those wizards. I think Custodi Squire is the only other one worth running. I would run Remember the Fallen over the more narrow creatures though.
Gulf Squid is mostly useful to tap down permission players at their EOT so you can resolve your spells on your turn. If you have no use for that in your meta, it is week. If you have access to repeatable, instant speed blink (like Wormfang Drake + Mm Witch) you can also tap an opponent down in his upkeep, but it's a harder lock to assemble for sure.
Aether Tradewinds seems solid and for multiplayer I would also definitely run Curfew. That's a pretty strong lock with any recursion wizard!
Ivory Giant is a good find! Depending on how much mass creature problems you're seeing in your meta, you may want Dawnglare Invoker too (easier to tutor up as a 3 CMC wizard). It's essentially Rout on a stick - pretty good for a common.
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The list isn't really updated to say the least. I still think Armillary Sphere has a place in the deck over a land slot, though Commander's Sphere probably does too. I'm not entirely sure I'd still run Mine Excavation though.
Aether Tradewinds seems like a decent swap for Curfew.
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I also prefer these to things like wayfarer's bauble and commander's sphere. If you draw one of these rocks in the middle of the game, it only costs you an effective 1 mana to get it into play. I don't think their efficiency can be ignored.
Also a bit surprised, but not as much, at the lack of congregate
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Well I didn't much care for colorless sources at the time, but Mind Stone was certainly a possibility. The list hasn't been updated since the printing of Thought Vessel, but it too is a possibility - the hand size can be an issue at times. Fellwar Stone is debatably a common, but is probably worthwhile as it can probably give U or W mana. Fracted Powerstone is probably worse than another Island though.
Cool to see interest in this deck again! I still believe Mistmeadow Witch is one of the most powerful PDH options.
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I think the difference in power level between thought vessel and fractured powerstone is negligible. If one is worth playing then both are (and I'm pretty sure both are)
I really like the idea of this deck, it reminds me of good Brago lists, course without the infinite combos. My local group is starting up a pauper EDH league and I'm going to be putting in a lot of reps with this idea. As metalevolence said, the deck looks like it really wants to get to 7 mana ASAP. I would probably add Ponder over Armillary Sphere since it will help find your land and if you don't need land, helps you find what you do want. Or if you have your Traumatic Visions engine going, armillary looks awful. I'm also cutting a lot of the ETBT lands, especially Transguild Promenade and Rupture Spire. If there's one thing I've learned about how to have successful games of EDH, its to start your early turns ramping.
@Urdjur, What was the purpose of Ray of Command in your original list? Is it just intended to be a combat trick, or was there a specific use in common pauper matchups? Steal a Spellheart Chimera and kill someone or perhaps a Crypt Rats? Thinking of replacing it and Dispeller's Capsule with more ramp.
Ray of Command is perhaps the best removal blue has to offer. The simplest application is to steal creature X to block and kill creature Y that is attacking you (X might also be attacking you of course). However, it is often possible (especially in multiplayer) to match power and toughness in such a way that both attacker and blocker is killed, meaning it's an instant speed 2-for-1 removal in blue, for 4 mana.
There's also the situational plays like stealing Ulamog's Crusher to kill some permanents or a voltron general to kill someone. But then there is also the Ghostly Flicker engine! If you flick the rayed creature, you get to keep it. So, say you assemble the Ghostly Flicker engine and you steal a dude with Ray of Command. Then you use Ghostly Flicker and you get to keep it permanently for the price of 3 mana more. Then of course you can flick back Ray of Command and eventually get all the fatties, or commanders, on your side of the table. This only happens occasionally though - most of the time, it is "just" an instant speed 2-for-1.
Dispeller's Capsule, OTOH, is a pretty awful card IMO. There are lots of better options for disenchant effects so feel free to change it to more ramp.
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You typically cannot steal commanders with the ray of command + ghostly flicker combo, because ghostly flicker exiles briefly and they therefore can remove their commander to the command zone.
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Thank you, this is all great information that I was not aware of. I'm loving this deck, especially 1v1. Reality Acid is my go-to card for ending the game. By turn 8, they usually have no land left and I've hard-locked them out of the game. Having a couple of rocks in your opening hand/the first few draws speed up your inevitability so much. What I've noticed is, once you get to the point where you can pay for the bounce twice, the game is over. There are practically no dead draws in this deck, as you always want to make your land drop, and every other card either immediately impacts the board or gets you something that does.
Multiplayer is a lot trickier. People start to get really afraid of you as you assemble things like Reality Acid, Stonehorn Dignitary, Oblivion Ring, etc and the deck doesn't have enough legs to handle multiple enemies without a lot of politics. So far, the biggest weakness seems to be that Mistmeadow Witch is a 1/1. Even when I have her soulbound with Elgaud Shieldmate she still easily dies from things like Crypt Rats, Evincar's Justice, etc. I think what this list needs is something like Slagwurm Armor or Inviolability. Does anyone else have more effective ways of protecting MmW?
Glad you're liking the deck! Well, she does protect herself against sorcery speed effects like Evincar's Justice. Against instant speed it can be more difficult if they, say, activate Crypt Rats in response to you tapping out for blinking. I probably wouldn't want any auras because they fall off if you every need to blink the Witch for protection. If you're facing Crypt Rats as a commander 1v1, why not run Obsidian Acolyte? If you're only facing it occasionally as a card in decks, I wouldn't bother with specific counter measures. She's cheap to recast from the command zone if killed, after all.
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I see how this can be useful in your deck. To me, Ghostly Flicker adds so little over MmW that I wouldn't bother including cards to protect it. It saves me 1 mana and let's me blink at instant speed (good for some ETB-abilities, bad against sweepers) IF I have a Scrivener clone. Also, I'm more likely to care about the other dude I'm flickering with it than something in my yard, as that would actually require TWO recursion bears. Almost anything that's worth recurring in this deck comes in multiple copies and different tutor categories and card types to make the engines hard to dismantle. For example, if I'm holding the fort with MmW, Dawn Charm and Archaeomancer and something bad happens, I might just wizardcycle for Dawnglare Invoker instead or drop that Stonehorn Dignitary that I had been sandbagging all along.
Actually, now that I think about it, I think Ghostly Flicker fills the same function as Feldon's Cane fills in yours, if that makes sense. It's my back-up plan if something bad happens to Mistmeadow Witch so I can keep flickering. Your primary flicker engine IS Ghostly Flicker, so then it makes sense to protect it with Cane I think
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With the friends I am playing am moving towards playing these types of pauper decks.
I find that the Cane protects as others are sweeping the board and I need to restart up.
Once someone realizes how close I am to locking the board down the whole table will do whatever is needed to stop it from happening. I think I am used to playing with insurance policies.
I think the cane and gargoyle act in that way for me.
I am still playing this as the list is now, just trying to see what is needed in my meta.
For instance I thought I needed a bigger finisher like Ulamog Crusher, but because my meta is full of steals and Bribery, I decided against it. I will just nickel and dime them to death.
Both decks have really great plays. I will let you know how it goes for me.
I am usually playing at lunch with about 2-4 other people. So this is more multiplayer games for me.
The two games I won one on one, once I was a turn ahead and could recur a counter spell, they had no chance of winning.
+1 Kor Skyfisher
+1 Dream Stalker
+1 Rhystic Study
-1 Ur-Golem's Eye
-1 Sisay's Ring
-1 Echoing Truth
The enchantment based removal engines have just been GREAT so I wanted to include more engine parts to ensure I have an enchantment bouncer as often as possible. The artifact ramp has been good late game, but I feel I sometimes lose too much tempo from playing them. Truth was cut as a meta consideration (not many token decks) and because I have answers to tokens already, AND because I added Skyfisher/Stalker. Rhystic Study is in, for being generally awesome regardless of what opponents choose.
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It's probably the worst of the blink effects as it returns at EoT and the +1/+1 counter is mostly irrelevant. Meh, it might be good enough to run anyway. The list is pretty tight though. You could probably cut a draw spell for it as it will often function like one anyway.
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Yeah, I guess if you're going to play it you'll probably play turn to mist over it, since the counter doesn't matter if you think you're gonna keep blinking whatever it is.
I'm trying out petals of insight and I feel like it will be good though I dislike that it's a sorcery it gives us reusable digging power.
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Just got into PDH. Found most of the cards here.
The deck itself is good. But I'm finding it hard to win against a Mono Blue Jace's Phantasm deck with pure counters/draws
U Delver
Tuned mono-blue lists will always be challenging 1v1, but the witch has a better shot than many thanks to her ability. You basically only need to stick her once, and she costs 2 mana to cast so... Try sneaking her under the counter radar turn 2. By turn 4, she'll protect herself against bounce. Jace's Phantasm is a useless wincon against an active witch, and with enough mana on the board you can attempt to stick a full lock down piece like Gulf Squid and end the game there.
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2 Mistmeadow Witch
Card draw (7)
3 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Rhystic Study
4 Foresee
4 Deep Analysis
5 Mulldrifter
5 Rush of Knowledge
8 Treasure Cruise
Tutoring (6)
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Muddle the Mixture
3 Heliod's Pilgrim
3 Drift of Phantasms
3 Trinket Mage
5 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
Ramp (10)
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Expedition Map
2 Armillary Sphere
2 Azorius Signet
2 Mind Stone
3 Commander's Sphere
3 Pilgrim's Eye
4 Sisay's Ring
4 Ur-Golem's Eye
4 Kor Cartographer
Recursion (6)
2 Angelic Renewal
3 Remember the Fallen
4 Archaeomancer
5 Mnemonic Wall
5 Scrivener
5 Custodi Squire
2 Momentary Blink
3 Ghostly Flicker
3 Æther Tradewinds
3 Capsize
6 Æthersnipe
Protection (7)
2 Arcane Denial
3 Dream Fracture
3 Whispersilk Cloak
4 Rewind
4 Elgaud Shieldmate
5 Contradict
5 Lost in the Mist
Trinket toolbox (7)
0 Tormod's Crypt
0 Darksteel Citadel
0 Seat of the Synod
0 Ancient Den
1 Bonesplitter
1 Dispeller's Capsule
1 Library of Leng
Creature removal (9)
2 Journey to Nowhere
3 Arrest
3 Encrust
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Faith's Fetters
4 Suppression Bonds
4 Serrated Arrows
5 Iona's Judgment
5 Angelic Edict
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Devout Witness
3 Dismantling Blow
Wincons (7)
3 Empyrial Armor
4 Stonehorn Dignitary
5 Sensor Splicer
6 Vedalken Dismisser
7 Ivory Giant
8 Ulamog's Crusher
9 Hand of Emrakul
Land (32)
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Azorius Guildgate
1 Bant Panorama
1 Command Tower
1 Esper Panorama
1 Evolving Winds
1 Halimar Depths
1 Rupture Spire
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Tranquil Cove
1 Transguild Promenade
Explanations for some odd choices:
- Lost in the Mist and Contradict: I've played a few games in which I simply accumulate a ton card advantage by blocking with Mnemonic Wall / Archaeomancer / Scrivener, blinking it with Witch, and returning one of these counters to counter something relevant while drawing cards and bouncing stuff ad nauseam. Although it's mana intensive, it can slow opponents down to a crawl even in multiplayer, and is specially effective in 1vs1.
- Commander's Sphere over Darksteel Ingot: Basically a card draw engine with Sanctum Gargoyle that also reduces Witch's blinking cost by 1. Indestructible rarely mattered anyways since no one goes around blowing up mana rocks, let alone blowing a rock against a bicolored deck which you wont color screw anyways. And if someone aims destruction at it, I can sac it in response.
- Ivory Giant over Dawnglare Invoker: Has a better body and taps down ALL the table, not just an opponent's (minus White creatures, which I can take out with removal or simply let other players take care of them) for half the mana on Dawnglare Invoker. I can simply tap opponents out before my turn and then strike them down one by one.
I haven't had room for Vedalken Dismisser yet since I play mainly on Multiplayer and the lock is less effective here, but I'm certainly planning to include him ASAP since I also play some games of 1vs1 here and there and he's not that bad in Multi, so what should I take out? Also what's the deal with Gulf Squid? Perhaps I'm being dumb and missing something, but since Mistmeadow Witch returns the guy EoT, there's no way to tap an opponent's lands on his Untap step after he / she untaps them, whether I blink Squid on my turn or his / hers.
Some things I'm also considering are Griffin Dreamfinder and Remember the Fallen for the recursion package and Cloudshift and Æther Tradewinds for the bouncing one. Also a bit more of protection like Neurok Stealthsuit, Alexi's Cloak (over Diplomatic Immunity since Cloak can be cast at instant speed, which is the one I operate by default when I have the Witch already set up) or one or two counterspells more. I'm kind of reluctant to test the Reality Acid package though since although Acid itself is good (but slow), it implies including some copies of really subpar creatures in a multiplayer environment, and I think I'm loaded on efficient and diverse removal anyways.
EDIT:
- Auramancer
- Sanctum Gargoyle
- Vedalken Æthermage
+ Æther Tradewinds
+ Remember the Fallen
+ Vedalken Dismisser
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I can see how Lost in the Mist could be a pretty good engine card in this deck. I'm not sure spreading the recursion across other card types is the way to go though. I ran Auramancer due to heavy focus on Reality Acid, but supporting both Gargoyle and Auramancer means fewer good instants/sorceries and less support for those wizards. I think Custodi Squire is the only other one worth running. I would run Remember the Fallen over the more narrow creatures though.
Gulf Squid is mostly useful to tap down permission players at their EOT so you can resolve your spells on your turn. If you have no use for that in your meta, it is week. If you have access to repeatable, instant speed blink (like Wormfang Drake + Mm Witch) you can also tap an opponent down in his upkeep, but it's a harder lock to assemble for sure.
Aether Tradewinds seems solid and for multiplayer I would also definitely run Curfew. That's a pretty strong lock with any recursion wizard!
Ivory Giant is a good find! Depending on how much mass creature problems you're seeing in your meta, you may want Dawnglare Invoker too (easier to tutor up as a 3 CMC wizard). It's essentially Rout on a stick - pretty good for a common.
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I used Auramancer and Sanctum Gargoyle mainly as failsafes against broken artifacts or enchantments, and to have a permanent artifact / enchantment destruction engine with Seal of Cleansing and Dispeller's Capsule respectively alongside Devout Witness (plus Auramancer and Angelic Renewal made for one hell of recursion engine).
I switched them up for AEther Tradewinds and Remember the Fallen, and I'll test if Devout Witness alone can carry me through artifacts and enchantments. In the meanwhile, since I now have a grand total of 4 wizards not counting him, I've decided to cut Vedalken AEthermage in favor of Vedalken Dismisser. If I get both Auramancer and Dawnglare Invoker back some time I'll consider running him again. I'd like to open up some space for Alexi's Cloak and Neurok Stealthsuit for some instant speed Shroud on the Witch, and I'm still waiting for a place for Cloudshift.
Also, are Eldrazi Devastator, Guardian of the Guildpact and Vulshok Morningstar worth taking out some value / utility cards?
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Also, Armillary Sphere seems too slow, wouldn't you prefer Commander's Sphere? Especially with cards like Mine Excavation?
Aether Tradewinds seems like a decent swap for Curfew.
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mind stone, fellwar stone, thought vessel, even fractured powerstone
I also prefer these to things like wayfarer's bauble and commander's sphere. If you draw one of these rocks in the middle of the game, it only costs you an effective 1 mana to get it into play. I don't think their efficiency can be ignored.
Also a bit surprised, but not as much, at the lack of congregate
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Cool to see interest in this deck again! I still believe Mistmeadow Witch is one of the most powerful PDH options.
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Also, I knew I was forgetting one: prismatic lens
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Mana Rock package I'm going to start with:
Fellwar Stone
Azorius Signet
Commander's Sphere
Darksteel Ingot
Wayfarer's Bauble
Sisay's Ring
Ur-Golem's Eye
Mind Stone
Thought Vessel
There's also the situational plays like stealing Ulamog's Crusher to kill some permanents or a voltron general to kill someone. But then there is also the Ghostly Flicker engine! If you flick the rayed creature, you get to keep it. So, say you assemble the Ghostly Flicker engine and you steal a dude with Ray of Command. Then you use Ghostly Flicker and you get to keep it permanently for the price of 3 mana more. Then of course you can flick back Ray of Command and eventually get all the fatties, or commanders, on your side of the table. This only happens occasionally though - most of the time, it is "just" an instant speed 2-for-1.
Dispeller's Capsule, OTOH, is a pretty awful card IMO. There are lots of better options for disenchant effects so feel free to change it to more ramp.
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Multiplayer is a lot trickier. People start to get really afraid of you as you assemble things like Reality Acid, Stonehorn Dignitary, Oblivion Ring, etc and the deck doesn't have enough legs to handle multiple enemies without a lot of politics. So far, the biggest weakness seems to be that Mistmeadow Witch is a 1/1. Even when I have her soulbound with Elgaud Shieldmate she still easily dies from things like Crypt Rats, Evincar's Justice, etc. I think what this list needs is something like Slagwurm Armor or Inviolability. Does anyone else have more effective ways of protecting MmW?
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