So I am trying to put together a commander deck that doesn't have a pre-built in wincon. I am trying to borrow cards from my opponents to come up with a way to win on the fly each game. I think this could be a fun challenge and it would make the game a little different each time I get to play. I figured playing five colors may be the way to start along with a group hug feel. no better way to get a good card pool to steal from then to help my opponents progress their boards. I'm sure I am not the first to come up with this idea so any advice on what cards to include or even a deck list you have would be super appreciated.
Now that I have a starter list for the deck, what should I cut. the plan is to use 35 lands so I think I still have a few cards to cut out. Is there anything worth putting into the deck that I dont have already? is there anything that could be considered a win con that needs to go?
Tribal clones and copy effects. I did this with Lazav, Dimir Mastermind once - had a side group that always complained about power level no matter how casual my decks were, so I built all clones and copy spells so I would literally depend on them for strategy and wincons - and it was actually quite fun, even in my regular group. If I were to build it again, I'd probably go with Volrath, the Shapestealer.
I'd suggest you avoid group hug like the plague. I used to play group hug but now actively target anyone playing it. It ruins games.
For the five color commander I was thinking more along the line of kenrith maybe. He works well with the group hug idea. Yasova seem a little aggressive for what I am trying to do.
Yeah, Yasova is very aggressive. Steal then Sacrifice type play. My buddy makes stupid agro decks. I swear his fun is measured by others peoples misery, frustration, and hopelessness. His other two primary edh decks are Krenko, Mob boss and Uril, the Miststalker - if that tells ya anything.
Kenrith is pretty versatile - I tend to shy away from commanders with 5cc or more unless I have TONS of ways to protect them though. But I tend to see a whole lot of targeted instant speed removal and board wipes from hell.
I'd definitely recommend against group hug, it is generally seen as a fairly obnoxious playstyle and when you add that to the fact that the average player becomes irrationally livid when you take their stuff you're going to get hated out of games extremely quickly. Taking someone else's cards is probably EDH cardinal sin no.1, above MLD even. Like, no joke, the only reason Expropriate is playable is the fact that people would rather give you an extra turn than one of their permanents so 90% of the time it reads 'Take 4 extra turns' for 1 less mana than Time Stretch.
If you're going to make an annoying deck you're either going to want to make it control-heavy to counteract all the hate, or build something innocuously durdley in order to shake off some heat.
Like... 'Oops, all Clones' Sakashima with a few Control Magic effects is probably fine, since copying isn't frowned upon and the deck generally won't be able to do anything better than catch up to the player in the lead.
So I am trying to put together a commander deck that doesn't have a pre-built in wincon. I am trying to borrow cards from my opponents to come up with a way to win on the fly each game. I think this could be a fun challenge and it would make the game a little different each time I get to play.
thanks for the reply. Volrath seems pretty sweet and he is in my favorite colors.
If you go with Volrath, it can be a lot of fun. Green for ramp, blue and black for copy, control, and recursion. You can avoid some of the more standard inclusions to make sure it "doesn't have a pre-built in wincon" (obnoxious things like Blighted Agent and Needle Specter), but you would want to consider some of the others that enable you to copy what your opponents are running. One amazing benefit of the all-clones type decks is that you're not just copying one player. Sometimes you copy one thing from Player A and something else from Player B, and suddenly you have a combo or the most powerful board. Or you can simply enjoy having a bigger version of their creature. And once they know you're all clones and copy, they sometimes have to adjust what they play so you don't get a copy.
Here are some fun recommendations for the deck: Faerie Artisans - You get all their ETBs. And occasionally something really spicy. Experiment Kraj - Seriously, get all the abilities. Also place counters for Volrath. The Mimeoplasm - Get what they had, only bigger. Tetzimoc, Primal Death - Keep it in the hand to place counters for Volrath to copy creatures. Cast it if you need to level the board a bit. Nice and versatile. Evil Twin - Their creature, but also able to kill their creature.
I'd definitely recommend against group hug, it is generally seen as a fairly obnoxious playstyle and when you add that to the fact that the average player becomes irrationally livid when you take their stuff you're going to get hated out of games extremely quickly. Taking someone else's cards is probably EDH cardinal sin no.1, above MLD even. Like, no joke, the only reason Expropriate is playable is the fact that people would rather give you an extra turn than one of their permanents so 90% of the time it reads 'Take 4 extra turns' for 1 less mana than Time Stretch.
If you're going to make an annoying deck you're either going to want to make it control-heavy to counteract all the hate, or build something innocuously durdley in order to shake off some heat.
Like... 'Oops, all Clones' Sakashima with a few Control Magic effects is probably fine, since copying isn't frowned upon and the deck generally won't be able to do anything better than catch up to the player in the lead.
...I think that this might be meta-dependent.
I've played against several "gain-control" type decks (including Memnarch, Sen Triplets, Empress Galina, and a deck that packs Keiga and a bunch of clones) without an ounce of salt from the table and the few times I've seen expropriate resolve, I have only seen a non-caster choose time once.
Oh obviously meta-dependency is a thing, but I was thinking:
1) Steal-your-***** decks are only really playable in weaker metas where it will garner salt, otherwise they're just a joke. I made the assumption that OP is in the former given what he's trying to build, but I guess he could just be looking to make a joke deck. Care to chime in, Looshkin?
2) Expropriate is only really playable in metas where people choose time, everywhere else people eventually realize its bad and take it out. My statement about Expropriate was predicated on my assumption in point 1.
Either way, my point about group hug stands because hate for group hug is universal lol. You're essentially turning a 4-player game of EDH into a 3-player game of Planechase, and most people would rather gouge their eyes out than endure a game of kingmaker with an extra layer of kingmaker on top.
1) Steal-your-***** decks are only really playable in weaker metas where it will garner salt, otherwise they're just a joke.
Disagree. Don't mean to hijack the thread - but treason type decks can be very strong if built and piloted right. If the whole table doesn't mob Yasova it gets out of hand VERY quickly. Even when it's 3 on 1 that deck wins a good 25% of the time. Everyone I know has been playing since primary school and we're all in our 30's - we aren't pros but the table is pretty cutthroat.
I personally play a land destruction deck. With Lord Windgrace as commander. My playgroup is the worst. People [expletive deleted] hate us.
Yeah I've got 25 years of experience with the game myself (including some bounty hunting back when ELO was a thing) not that time spent playing necessarily means anything at all (I know a guy who has been playing since Alpha and he's atrociously bad). My experience has been very different from yours, in that the stronger a deck is the less likely it is to have a big beefy dude or recurring value creature worth stealing with anything but the most efficient of Control Magics (read: Gilded Drake). I can't begin to fathom your point of view so I guess we'll agree to disagree. Back to the thread then?
I can't begin to fathom your point of view so I guess we'll agree to disagree. Back to the thread then?
Yeah we probably should, but I just can't drop it quite yet!
So, 'm just curious - because I do run in small circles and my experience is also sporadic over that time - I have not encountered every deck out there...
Oh you need such and such creature for whatever reason? It's really helping you? Boosting you mana? Providing a trigger? Nope! It's gone! And if all else fails a 4/2 trampling commander at 3cc can knock off someone pretty quick if lightning greaves, demonmail hauberk, or blackblade reforged are in the picture - and be recast from the command zone several times without incurring too high a cost.
It's much more about disrupting your opponents strategy than grabbing super sweet creatures to use against them, although that happens too, naturally. Even just cheating someone out of creature based mana-ramp when they're relying on it can set a player back 2-4 turns from where they want to be with just one instance of treason
edits: corrected card tags...
Edit 2: This is a buddies deck - I've never piloted it - corrected one of the combos not possible with reins of power but possible via other mechanics in the deck (ie insurrection)
I have a clearer picture now of the fact that our ideas of what qualifies as powerful are incredibly different. Good to know moving forward I guess. Now stop derailing lol.
I have a clearer picture now of the fact that our ideas of what qualifies as powerful are incredibly different. Good to know moving forward I guess. Now stop derailing lol.
Totally!
BTW, I'm saying powerful without a built in win-con type combo as per the original posters intent for their deck. Definitely more power available for any deck willing to combo out!
So I am trying to put together a commander deck that doesn't have a pre-built in wincon. I am trying to borrow cards from my opponents to come up with a way to win on the fly each game. I think this could be a fun challenge and it would make the game a little different each time I get to play.
thanks for the reply. Volrath seems pretty sweet and he is in my favorite colors.
If you go with Volrath, it can be a lot of fun. Green for ramp, blue and black for copy, control, and recursion. You can avoid some of the more standard inclusions to make sure it "doesn't have a pre-built in wincon" (obnoxious things like Blighted Agent and Needle Specter), but you would want to consider some of the others that enable you to copy what your opponents are running. One amazing benefit of the all-clones type decks is that you're not just copying one player. Sometimes you copy one thing from Player A and something else from Player B, and suddenly you have a combo or the most powerful board. Or you can simply enjoy having a bigger version of their creature. And once they know you're all clones and copy, they sometimes have to adjust what they play so you don't get a copy.
Here are some fun recommendations for the deck: Faerie Artisans - You get all their ETBs. And occasionally something really spicy. Experiment Kraj - Seriously, get all the abilities. Also place counters for Volrath. The Mimeoplasm - Get what they had, only bigger. Tetzimoc, Primal Death - Keep it in the hand to place counters for Volrath to copy creatures. Cast it if you need to level the board a bit. Nice and versatile. Evil Twin - Their creature, but also able to kill their creature.
Again thanks for the ideas first off. That faerie artisans look really sweet. Volrath super high up on my list for the commander as of right now and I was planning to look at EDH rec for some cards recommendations for him.
Oh obviously meta-dependency is a thing, but I was thinking:
1) Steal-your-***** decks are only really playable in weaker metas where it will garner salt, otherwise they're just a joke. I made the assumption that OP is in the former given what he's trying to build, but I guess he could just be looking to make a joke deck. Care to chime in, Looshkin?
2) Expropriate is only really playable in metas where people choose time, everywhere else people eventually realize its bad and take it out. My statement about Expropriate was predicated on my assumption in point 1.
Either way, my point about group hug stands because hate for group hug is universal lol. You're essentially turning a 4-player game of EDH into a 3-player game of Planechase, and most people would rather gouge their eyes out than endure a game of kingmaker with an extra layer of kingmaker on top.
Thanks for some of the insight you have shared. As for you first question its really hard for me to speak to my meta on the fact it changes so much. I play in a shop that is primarily military players. so there is a lot of people coming and going pretty normally but for the most part there is a good assortment of deck levels on any given night.
As for the deck, im not trying to make it seem like a joke deck but rather test my ability to piece together a way to win with the random cards in front of me. I see that maybe the group hug idea may not work out as I had originally thought but control is probably the way I am going to heading as or right now. Again thanks for the advice.
Saw the update with the partial list. I would recommend adding Mirage Mirror and possibly Mimic Vat as cards that fit your theme of using the opponents' stuff without having cards that are a wincon by themselves.
Also, it looks like your list is entirely creatures. Do you plan to add a complement of copy spells? Stuff like Narset's Reversal and Twincast? These can offer great utility (ramp/removal) or outright win the game if the opponent plays the right spell.
Saw the update with the partial list. I would recommend adding Mirage Mirror and possibly Mimic Vat as cards that fit your theme of using the opponents' stuff without having cards that are a wincon by themselves.
Also, it looks like your list is entirely creatures. Do you plan to add a complement of copy spells? Stuff like Narset's Reversal and Twincast? These can offer great utility (ramp/removal) or outright win the game if the opponent plays the right spell.
So I have updated the list as of today. I still have a least one card I need to cut, but I do have mimic vat, mirage mirror and narset's reversal in the list as of right now. I know I was having some trouble with getting the decklist to fully show up. I would like to find a little more balance on what I have the ability to copy/borrow from my opponents but still have some control in the list. also is there any special lands worth putting in the list to support the idea? Thanks again for looking into my build
also is there any special lands worth putting in the list to support the idea?
I would definitely include a couple lands capable of producing any colors or any colors your opponents can - Exotic Orchard, City of Brass, etc. If you've copied something with an activated ability, you'll want to be able to pay the cost. Or Vesuva and Thespian's Stage for even more on-theme copying.
Also, I'm not keen on Grim Poppet. Your mileage may vary, but I've cut it from my decks, even where it looks like it would fit. I'm always underwhelmed when I get it in play. It's seven mana and never seems to do enough, even in Hapatra.
1 Altered Ego
1 Cemetery Puca
1 Clever Impersonator
1 Evil Twin
1 Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
1 Phrexian Metamorph
1 Progenitor Mimic
1 Sakashima the Impostor
1 Spark Double
1 Stunt Double
1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Carnifex Demon
1 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
1 Midnight Banshee
1 Necroskitter
1 Soul Snuffers
1 Generous Patron
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Gyruda, doom of Depths
1 Perplexing Chimera
1 Sepulchral Primordial
1 Vizier of Many Faces
Instant
1 Desertion
1 Spelljack
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Narset's Reversal
1 Beast Within
1 Krosan Grip
1 Cackling Counterpart
1 Cytoshape
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Bribery
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Villainous Wealth
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Damnation
1 Life's Finale
1 Farseek
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Mythos of Brokkos
1 Rite of Replication
1 Saheeli's Artistry
Artifact
1 Simic Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Dimir Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mimic Vat
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Helm of the Host
1 Mirage Mirror
1 Contagion Engine
Enchantments
1 Rhystic Study
1 Blowfly Infestation
1 Crumbling Ashes
1 Glistening Oil
1 Copy Enchantment
1 Mirrormade
1 Hedonist's Trove
1 Mind's Dilation
5 Islands
5 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Vesuva
1 Zagoth Triome
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Polluted Delta
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Command Tower
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mana Confluence
1 Cascding Cataracts
1 Watery Grave
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Clearwater Pathway
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 City of Brass
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Breeding Pool
1 Sunken Ruins
Now that I have a starter list for the deck, what should I cut. the plan is to use 35 lands so I think I still have a few cards to cut out. Is there anything worth putting into the deck that I dont have already? is there anything that could be considered a win con that needs to go?
thanks in advance
Loosh
My buddy has a brutal Yasova deck. It plays different every time. Everyone hates it.
I'd suggest you avoid group hug like the plague. I used to play group hug but now actively target anyone playing it. It ruins games.
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Kenrith is pretty versatile - I tend to shy away from commanders with 5cc or more unless I have TONS of ways to protect them though. But I tend to see a whole lot of targeted instant speed removal and board wipes from hell.
If you're going to make an annoying deck you're either going to want to make it control-heavy to counteract all the hate, or build something innocuously durdley in order to shake off some heat.
Like... 'Oops, all Clones' Sakashima with a few Control Magic effects is probably fine, since copying isn't frowned upon and the deck generally won't be able to do anything better than catch up to the player in the lead.
Here are some fun recommendations for the deck:
Faerie Artisans - You get all their ETBs. And occasionally something really spicy.
Experiment Kraj - Seriously, get all the abilities. Also place counters for Volrath.
The Mimeoplasm - Get what they had, only bigger.
Tetzimoc, Primal Death - Keep it in the hand to place counters for Volrath to copy creatures. Cast it if you need to level the board a bit. Nice and versatile.
Evil Twin - Their creature, but also able to kill their creature.
You can also look here: https://edhrec.com/commanders/volrath-the-shapestealer-clones-theme
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...I think that this might be meta-dependent.
I've played against several "gain-control" type decks (including Memnarch, Sen Triplets, Empress Galina, and a deck that packs Keiga and a bunch of clones) without an ounce of salt from the table and the few times I've seen expropriate resolve, I have only seen a non-caster choose time once.
1) Steal-your-***** decks are only really playable in weaker metas where it will garner salt, otherwise they're just a joke. I made the assumption that OP is in the former given what he's trying to build, but I guess he could just be looking to make a joke deck. Care to chime in, Looshkin?
2) Expropriate is only really playable in metas where people choose time, everywhere else people eventually realize its bad and take it out. My statement about Expropriate was predicated on my assumption in point 1.
Either way, my point about group hug stands because hate for group hug is universal lol. You're essentially turning a 4-player game of EDH into a 3-player game of Planechase, and most people would rather gouge their eyes out than endure a game of kingmaker with an extra layer of kingmaker on top.
Disagree. Don't mean to hijack the thread - but treason type decks can be very strong if built and piloted right. If the whole table doesn't mob Yasova it gets out of hand VERY quickly. Even when it's 3 on 1 that deck wins a good 25% of the time. Everyone I know has been playing since primary school and we're all in our 30's - we aren't pros but the table is pretty cutthroat.
I personally play a land destruction deck. With Lord Windgrace as commander. My playgroup is the worst. People [expletive deleted] hate us.
Yeah we probably should, but I just can't drop it quite yet!
So, 'm just curious - because I do run in small circles and my experience is also sporadic over that time - I have not encountered every deck out there...
Reins of power + ashnod's altar? Or god forbid
Reins of Powerinsurrection + Goblin Bombardment + Willbreaker? Using Ashnod's altar to enable a turn 4-5 insurrection and then wiping the board for everyone but yourself via sac? Even just the amount of control it gives you...Oh you need such and such creature for whatever reason? It's really helping you? Boosting you mana? Providing a trigger? Nope! It's gone! And if all else fails a 4/2 trampling commander at 3cc can knock off someone pretty quick if lightning greaves, demonmail hauberk, or blackblade reforged are in the picture - and be recast from the command zone several times without incurring too high a cost.
It's much more about disrupting your opponents strategy than grabbing super sweet creatures to use against them, although that happens too, naturally. Even just cheating someone out of creature based mana-ramp when they're relying on it can set a player back 2-4 turns from where they want to be with just one instance of treason
edits: corrected card tags...
Edit 2: This is a buddies deck - I've never piloted it - corrected one of the combos not possible with reins of power but possible via other mechanics in the deck (ie insurrection)
Totally!
BTW, I'm saying powerful without a built in win-con type combo as per the original posters intent for their deck. Definitely more power available for any deck willing to combo out!
Again thanks for the ideas first off. That faerie artisans look really sweet. Volrath super high up on my list for the commander as of right now and I was planning to look at EDH rec for some cards recommendations for him.
Thanks for some of the insight you have shared. As for you first question its really hard for me to speak to my meta on the fact it changes so much. I play in a shop that is primarily military players. so there is a lot of people coming and going pretty normally but for the most part there is a good assortment of deck levels on any given night.
As for the deck, im not trying to make it seem like a joke deck but rather test my ability to piece together a way to win with the random cards in front of me. I see that maybe the group hug idea may not work out as I had originally thought but control is probably the way I am going to heading as or right now. Again thanks for the advice.
Also, it looks like your list is entirely creatures. Do you plan to add a complement of copy spells? Stuff like Narset's Reversal and Twincast? These can offer great utility (ramp/removal) or outright win the game if the opponent plays the right spell.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
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So I have updated the list as of today. I still have a least one card I need to cut, but I do have mimic vat, mirage mirror and narset's reversal in the list as of right now. I know I was having some trouble with getting the decklist to fully show up. I would like to find a little more balance on what I have the ability to copy/borrow from my opponents but still have some control in the list. also is there any special lands worth putting in the list to support the idea? Thanks again for looking into my build
Also, I'm not keen on Grim Poppet. Your mileage may vary, but I've cut it from my decks, even where it looks like it would fit. I'm always underwhelmed when I get it in play. It's seven mana and never seems to do enough, even in Hapatra.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter