MTG Salvation

Ruling question: Do I have it right that when I have for example a Wilt-Leaf Liege in play,and Voja, Friend to elves enters the battlefield, it fights for 5 ?
So when I have an anthem in play, it works the moment the wolf comes on the battlefield ? Does anyone know which rulings are applicable here ?

Quote from Antwerperiaan »

Ruling question: Do I have it right that when I have for example a Wilt-Leaf Liege in play,and Voja, Friend to elves enters the battlefield, it fights for 5 ?
So when I have an anthem in play, it works the moment the wolf comes on the battlefield ? Does anyone know which rulings are applicable here ?

Voja would then be a 5/5 as it enters due to the anthem effect of Wilt-Leaf Liege. The anthem is a state based effect and will be checked before triggered abilities do.

If I'm right it's this ruling:

603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger.

Thanks ! This was what I searched for !

This is exactly what makes the deck tick.
Can't wait to give it a testrun in real world scenario's.

I know we are in green, but having seen the card in action a few times my other and friends deck, would Smothering Tithe be worthwile?
We have many manasinks in the deck to make use of the abundance of mana it can generate. The treasuretokens also get doubled up by our doubling effects resulting upwards of 6 mana per turn usually.

Quote from SmauG »

I know we are in green, but having seen the card in action a few times my other and friends deck, would Smothering Tithe be worthwile?
We have many manasinks in the deck to make use of the abundance of mana it can generate. The treasuretokens also get doubled up by our doubling effects resulting upwards of 6 mana per turn usually.

It's definitely a good card to run. the real question is if you have a slot for it. With all the token doublers and such I am already running a fair amount of enchantments, so I'm sticking to the mana dorks package for now.

isn't it Always?

Dorks vs. spells is pretty much a struggle to me in EDH decks. in this build i've gone with the middle ground. Run 1cmc (Elf) dorks with a sigleton higher up for added utility, and 2/3cmc spells for stable mana.
from 4cmc and upwards i tend to want to have gas, hence the cutting of Skyshroud Claim. The mega burst of mana from Smothering Tithe could be very worthwile when playing enough cards that can use it profitably. It could also very well be one of those cards that needs playing with to know if it's fitting or not.

edit: Speaking of slots, if the rumoured green Finale card is real, it will go in the deck in place of Green Sun's Zenith as both ramp, tutor and anthem which would be sweet.

Yeah, I try to run most 1 drop mana elves in this list simply because I want enough elves to champion with Wren's Run Packmaster, the only exception being Arbor Elf which obviously is a good one to have but with Displacer in my list I opted for Boreal Druid over it instead. Anything more costed needs to be able to make more than one mana for me, since I can spend that on Wolfbriar Elemental's kicker cost. Beastcaller Savant ended up being an exception only because it has both an Ally and Elf subtype.

Also, one reason why I am holding off on Smothering Tithe is the fact that it's a white card and do want to try to keep the deck more on a heavy green side, especially since most mana elves end up generating green.

Will have to see if the Finale of card is real, I've been hold off on picking up a copy of Chord of Calling for the deck due to it.

I totally understand you choices on creature based ramp, they support one of the big cards in the deck in addition to providing ramp. Clearly you have a Multi-subtype (race) tribal deck, very nice.
In my own meta, relying solely on creature based ramp is just to risky/fragile. Having a healthy combination is the way to go for me personaly.

I don't think i would replace, or if there is any replacement for Chord of Calling. Especially in a deck with that many elves. The instant speed spell is just too unique and good in what i does and can lead to blowout plays, either defensive i.e. with Spirit of the Hunt, or offensive i.e. with Tolsimir Wolfblood or combo cards.
You are very right though, with holding off buyng until the new card is officially spoiled/released. If it resembles anything that is rumoured, it's an auto include for me.

And it's real. Surefire inclusion in the deck!

Edit: I might just take out Selesnya Signet and keep both ramp/tutors

Yeah, the green Finale is definitely getting a spot, it helps building consistency for the deck and can work as a win condition as well. Along with that Chord is also going to be into my list as another way to add that consistency, which is pretty much my focus right now when it comes to tweaking my list.

Trying to narrow down the deck strategy has been helping me figure out potential cuts. Since stepping off Howl of the Night Pack I just need less of a focus on ramping out lands, so Sword of the Animist is something I’m taking out for now. Metallic Mimic while nicely on curve got removed as well, it doesn’t trigger anything upon entering and other then that was only really there to synergize with Doubling Season. So since I don’t have a focus on +1/+1 counters it’s better to take it out and use its spot for something that I do want to focus on.

[b]Bow of Nylea[/c] is also getting cut simply because I keep reading over one part of the card each time I sift through my collection; the attacking part for deathtouch. Doesn’t work with the fighting our wolves do and the modes on it feel too incidentally useful that again I could do with a more focused card here.

Finally, Karametra, God of Harvests is one I’m unsure about. Freeing up a high curve slot would be nice, especially since its mostly filtering out lands late game. Of course, if you can ramp into it turn three it can do a lot, but it’s not a card I want to look at in the ideal situation. As while I have means to tutor for an enchantment, I’d likely take a token doubler before Karametra. The other side remains that the deck does love ramping and it gives a minor back up in case the mana dorks get taken out.

Other then that I’ve been considering some additional bounce to fuel more triggers in the form of Erratic Portal or Cloudstone Curio. Though Portal just isn’t good enough in this deck since you pay 3 to bounce it and to get wolf triggers going its likely that the bounced creature would have to be a three drop, and as a six mana ‘loop’ its just too expensive. Curio definitely has more merit in that regard, so it could replace Karametra, of course, the two do have some synergy but sadly the lands come into play tapped.

So yeah at the moment I’m still undecided between Cloudstone Curio and Karametra’s potential place in my deck.

So, with the full spoiler on WAR out, I've placed my (pre)orders for the missing pieces and will start playtesting with the following list.



Compared to the original brew it has a better curve and has some tuning done on internal synergies.
After some playtesting i'll see what needs work. Manabase et all.

Edit: NimBalor, please share your latest list for the WAR release, i'll update the OP with the current lists.

I'll likely do an updated list in the next few days, as I'm still contemplating some changes and trying to see where I can make some more cuts to add some additional lines to my deck. Though contemplating these things makes me regret not having a Hoof in my collection, but for my wallet's sake I'm looking at ways to make it work without getting a copy.

There are many overrun type effects in magic's history and many of them are very budget friendly. With all the creature tutoring around, you could consider End-Raze Forerunners for the time being. Though you'll know in the back of your head there's just no hoof like THE HOOF

I've been thinking a lot about Emmara, Soul of the Accord. I added her from my own collection with the intention to do a lot more with Convoke or cards like Cryptolith Rite and make a bunch of elfs to abuse. It's a very very good creature, but things just didn't really go her way and thus she has lost some of her power in this deck. I do need an elf at 2cmc however, preferably with some nice ETB value for those champion situations. Elvish Visionary comes to mind, but other than replacing itself just hasn't got enough impact. Any sugestions?

I'm also wondering if Dromoka's Command should have place in the deck. It was in my first draft but cut it for Sundering Growth for theme and flavor reasons. Now i have a feeling they should both be in.

I'm getting in the realm of theorycrafting now, and i need real life play/goldfishing to find out what works and what not. It's mainly Wren's Run Packmaster that influences most on-curve choices at the moment.

There are many overrun type effects in magic's history and many of them are very budget friendly. With all the creature tutoring around, you could consider End-Raze Forerunners for the time being. Though you'll know in the back of your head there's just no hoof like THE HOOF

Yeah, its definitely something to consider... but right now I'm personally looking at Great Oak Guardian. Doesn't have trample but since I run mana dorks the untap could work well with blinking it for a massive boost.

I've been thinking a lot about Emmara, Soul of the Accord. I added her from my own collection with the intention to do a lot more with Convoke or cards like Cryptolith Rite and make a bunch of elfs to abuse. It's a very very good creature, but things just didn't really go her way and thus she has lost some of her power in this deck. I do need an elf at 2cmc however, preferably with some nice ETB value for those champion situations. Elvish Visionary comes to mind, but other than replacing itself just hasn't got enough impact. Any sugestions?

I've used Emmara in decks before but she takes cards to make her work, since she has no tap ability herself and needs things along the lines of Seedborn Muse to really start doing some work.

As 2-drop Elves the first that comes to mind is indeed Elvish Visionary for sure... Dwynen’s Elite is there to get more value if you have token doublers out there. Sylvan Ranger could give some incidental ramp. Think here the Elite might be a decent option.

I'm also wondering if Dromoka's Command should have place in the deck. It was in my first draft but cut it for Sundering Growth for theme and flavor reasons. Now i have a feeling they should both be in.

Depends on what you are looking for in the card, as enchantment removal Sundering Growth is going to be better. It targets a piece where as the Command will always hit the worst enchantment on the board. The additional modes is what you have to judge the card on, as Growth is more flavorful indeed but also easier to cast.

I'm getting in the realm of theorycrafting now, and i need real life play/goldfishing to find out what works and what not. It's mainly Wren's Run Packmaster that influences most on-curve choices at the moment.

Yeah, it's where I am at as well, as some cards will probably be too cute to run. It will definitely make it easier to decide what cards that can be cut, as it's where I am looking at things with my list as well. Right now I know that I'll likely be taking out Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and am actually considering cutting Eladamri's Call over Eldritch Evolution, just to lower the amount of white in the deck a tad and make space for more win condition lines. Ideally I'd make one more cut in my existing list, but finding that one has been challenging.

Yes, Dwynen's Elite is a very good option i know from modern Elves. Just like Emmara though, it needs quite some build around (i.e. more elf focussed 1 drops) to gain value on curve. I see Emmara producing more tokens by random attacks in my build to be honest.
These cards play a small role in the overall sceme and with that in mind Elvish Visionary at least guarantees you that extra card in any stage of the game and some fodder to block with or sac/champion. In my build and the EDH format in general, i prefer that consistency over build around cards that are sub optimal in the overall game plan.

Quote from from="NimBalor »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/808138-brew-tolsimir-friend-to-wolves-selesnya-elves-and?comment=40 »

I'm getting in the realm of theorycrafting now, and i need real life play/goldfishing to find out what works and what not. It's mainly Wren's Run Packmaster that influences most on-curve choices at the moment.

Yeah, it's where I am at as well, as some cards will probably be too cute to run. It will definitely make it easier to decide what cards that can be cut, as it's where I am looking at things with my list as well. Right now I know that I'll likely be taking out Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and am actually considering cutting Eladamri's Call over Eldritch Evolution, just to lower the amount of white in the deck a tad and make space for more win condition lines. Ideally I'd make one more cut in my existing list, but finding that one has been challenging.

I use tutors to gain access to certain key cards, but also to just close out the late game with a possible combo. Since you don't run any combo, You could focus a little more on the blinking/flickering/value aspect of the deck. I would probably use those slots to fit in those repetitive flickering engines.
I know Eldrazi Displacer needs some extra work in the mana department, but it can be done because the deck is not that greedy. It becomes a 3 color manabase though.

Yes, Dwynen's Elite is a very good option i know from modern Elves. Just like Emmara though, it needs quite some build around (i.e. more elf focussed 1 drops) to gain value on curve. I see Emmara producing more tokens by random attacks in my build to be honest. These cards play a small role in the overall sceme and with that in mind Elvish Visionary at least guarantees you that extra card in any stage of the game and some fodder to block with or sac/champion. In my build and the EDH format in general, i prefer that consistency over build around cards that are sub optimal in the overall game plan.

Yeah, here the build difference definitely changes things and Visionary is a better fit for you. Though I feel its best not to focus on the ETB beyond the initial cast anyways, ideally you want to keep Packmaster on the board so that means you won't get it back. So that's the floor for the championed Elf creature, so at most getting an additional trigger is mostly a bonus.

I use tutors to gain access to certain key cards, but also to just close out the late game with a possible combo. Since you don't run any combo, You could focus a little more on the blinking/flickering/value aspect of the deck. I would probably use those slots to fit in those repetitive flickering engines. I know Eldrazi Displacer needs some extra work in the mana department, but it can be done because the deck is not that greedy. It becomes a 3 color manabase though.

Yeah, it's why I try to make sure most colorless sources have some additional value. Mirrorpool is the only slightly awkward one I currently have left, as only the token making part has some effect left. So I will have to see if it has any merit to keep it in the deck after playing it a few times, as making some copies might be working better in theory than on the board.

Anyways, I have gone and made some cuts and used some of the thoughts that came with including Great Oak Guardian, which actually ends up adding some combo to my list and some options to close out games as well. As since I do run blink effects and have some mana dorks, I decided to give Paradox Engine a go. It's a card that will illicit some groans, but in a tribal deck it is slightly less obnoxious in my opinion. Also Selesnya is quite limited in tutoring for artifacts, so it's not going to be a go to tutor card all the time. It getting removed isn't the end all either, the mana investment sucks, but usually it means another enchantment is likely sticking around.

So that puts my current version of the deck at:

Paradox Engine could do some serious work with manaelves and -rocks. Nice inclusion.
I also very much like your inclusion of Marshal's Anthem. If any more pump is nescecary, this card looks very sweet in any stage of the game. In the very late game, it could be a potential boardwipe with Tolsimir online.
In that same category i'm still keen on Spear of Heliod.

Updated opening post with most recesnt decklistst and some more in depth info

Quote from SmauG »

Paradox Engine could do some serious work with manaelves and -rocks. Nice inclusion.
I also very much like your inclusion of Marshal's Anthem. If any more pump is nescecary, this card looks very sweet in any stage of the game. In the very late game, it could be a potential boardwipe with Tolsimir online.
In that same category i'm still keen on Spear of Heliod.

Spear is nice but in the context of the deck it feels weird, as it feels more like a card that could do some work after a boardwipe while you try to rebuild, but when Tolsimir is online you're more likely to be removing creatures through triggers already and doing so before damage. The anthem effect is something the deck needs though.

Last week I played the deck for the first time. My meta was composed with Daretti, Meren, Atraxa and some others. I lost one game against a Daretti who combo-ed out and won one game.... I tried to keep to the tribal wolves idea, playing 25 wolf-related cards.
Conclusions ?
1. This deck is more than just casual, no tier 1 (but who cares), but lots of fun. Very good against creature decks.Overall really good !
2. Ramping needs a good mix of spells and creatures. It's very dangerous to trust only on small mana-elves (needed to play Wren's Run Packmaster, because they're so easily killed. Each game I had some manaproblems because of this, playing 37 lands ...
3. This commander is very good.
4. Cards that were especially good: Aura Shards, Parallel Lives, Elemental Bond, Kessig Cagebreakers.
5. Cards that did not do much and don't make the cut anymore: Silverfur Partisan, Selvala, Explorer Returned, Shalai, Voice of Plenty

What about you ?

Quote from Antwerperiaan »

Last week I played the deck for the first time. My meta was composed with Daretti, Meren, Atraxa and some others. I lost one game against a Daretti who combo-ed out and won one game.... I tried to keep to the tribal wolves idea, playing 25 wolf-related cards.
Conclusions ?
1. This deck is more than just casual, no tier 1 (but who cares), but lots of fun. Very good against creature decks.Overall really good !
2. Ramping needs a good mix of spells and creatures. It's very dangerous to trust only on small mana-elves (needed to play Wren's Run Packmaster, because they're so easily killed. Each game I had some manaproblems because of this, playing 37 lands ...
3. This commander is very good.
4. Cards that were especially good: Aura Shards, Parallel Lives, Elemental Bond, Kessig Cagebreakers.
5. Cards that did not do much and don't make the cut anymore: Silverfur Partisan, Selvala, Explorer Returned, Shalai, Voice of Plenty

What about you ?

Sadly due to national holiday stuff I won't be getting my preordered cards in until Tuesday, so at the earliest I'll be able to try the deck out during the next weekend.

Ramp and landbase are always something you have to tweak in those first few games. As far as mana-elves go, they are indeed a risk but the opposite side is you can potentially get a few explosive turns going. I purposely tried to keep my average CMC down as much as I could to help deal with the eventual wipe.

I haven't considered Selvala nor Shalai for my build so they are a bit harder to comment on. Silverfur Partisan is simply a build around card and if you don't plan on exploiting it's ability then yeah it can be replaced for something which has more effect immediately.

Quote from Antwerperiaan »

Last week I played the deck for the first time. My meta was composed with Daretti, Meren, Atraxa and some others. I lost one game against a Daretti who combo-ed out and won one game.... I tried to keep to the tribal wolves idea, playing 25 wolf-related cards.
Conclusions ?
1. This deck is more than just casual, no tier 1 (but who cares), but lots of fun. Very good against creature decks.Overall really good !
2. Ramping needs a good mix of spells and creatures. It's very dangerous to trust only on small mana-elves (needed to play Wren's Run Packmaster, because they're so easily killed. Each game I had some manaproblems because of this, playing 37 lands ...
3. This commander is very good.
4. Cards that were especially good: Aura Shards, Parallel Lives, Elemental Bond, Kessig Cagebreakers.
5. Cards that did not do much and don't make the cut anymore: Silverfur Partisan, Selvala, Explorer Returned, Shalai, Voice of Plenty

What about you ?

I guess you're the first Good to hear you did allright!
If my preorder arives in time, which it probably will, i'll give the deck its first real testrun next weekend.
I'm looking forward to it.


Edit: @Antwerperiaan, would you mind sharing your list?

The wolves have arrived, Just sharing
Games planned on sunday with a very large group.

Had my first game with the deck yesterday. It wasn't with my usual playgroup or people I play against more often, which did affect the game a fair bit as their level of threat assessment was much lower than what I would normally expect to be up against. They left both Paradox Engine and Cloudstone Curio unchecked on the table because this was a tribal deck, for example.

Now, I will give it that Paradox Engine isn't what I consider a win condition in this deck, as normally it just generates mana to sink into wolf token production and won't do so infinitely. Yes, it did help generate more tokens in the loop I used for the win, but I could have done it without Paradox Engine. As I took the game by EOT flashing in Great Oak Guardian, untap mana dorks, make token through Packmaster to bounce the Guardian, rinse repeat while using spare mana to make more wolf tokens. One opponent did try to remove the packmaster but with the mana from Great Oak's untaps and Paradox untaps I just restarted the loop with the removal still on the stack.

I pulled out a more casual deck for the other games as this table simply wasn't good enough to really test this deck. I got a light feel of things and did test my draws a tad by sandbagging the win. What I have concluded so far is that the deck wants haste and maybe another way to enable flash in order to play slightly more combo orientated.

I too have had my first two games in with the deck in yesterday, and i must say. It was pretty good fun piloting this deck.
The games were both very long and grindy in a 5 player pod due to being with 9 guys total on our plannded commander sunday afternoon.
Played one game vs: Lord Windgrace, Edgar Markov, King Macar, the Gold-Cursed and Roon of the Hidden Realm and another vs: Tuvasa the Sunlit, Edgar Markov, Aminatou, the Fateshifter and Brago, King Eternal.

I can't go into much detail becouse of the grindy way the games went, with lots of building and breaking down. Got second place first game and i've managed to win the second game which was crazy with a lot of swapping around of permanents which i really don't like .
Had my board set up to go and tutor for the win, but instead the underdog ulted his forgotten by the table Aminatou, the Fateshifter right before that and i had to Chord of Calling for my Trostani Discordant instead. In the end, card Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and politics got me there.

Things of note:
-The deck runs very smooth and "christmasland" curves of Elvish Harbinger into Wren's Run Packmaster into Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves happened. After a boardwipe killing all and the packmaster, regaining ramp, getting another elf like Wilt-Leaf Liege up top and just redo the sequence felt really really good.
-Mana was never really a problem;
-Ending with combat can be a problem without evasion granting or otherwise manipulation;
-The deck didn't go as wide as i had envisioned. Could be the way the cards played out those game, but never really had a lot of wolves at my disposal. Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves could use some more strong support in that area;
-Glare of Subdual was great!
-Kamahl, Fist of Krosa was great!
-Wilt-Leaf Liege was an all star in all games and worth tutoring for;
-Trostani Discordant is great tech in my meta, therefore she was included in the first place;
-The table seemed like they didn't really felt threatened by the deck nor the commander in comparison to the others. And the fights i did fight, i won with Voja to spare. This makes a very strong case for this commander.

I made one little last minute change before playing:
Out: Mycoloth
In: Wood Elves

Next time we sit down i'll try to figure out things that don't work and tune from there.