Guys he's joking. Darren saw fit to post that exact statement (replacing 29 with 28) on my first Scepter Thrasios Primer I posted on this site. Incidentally, that was also the first and last time I really used it!
29 lands is not a "competitive" deck. If you were to actually take this to a tournament you'd lose a high percentage of games due to bad mulls because you have no land hands. Even if you think you can operate on just 1 land with the other mana producing artifact/creatures, you don't get to choose your mulls. I'll assume this is a virtual deck, never actually been played? If you were actually to play back-to-back games with this deck, you'd soon find out that you just lose a number of games because you got greedy with the land count. Every mull after the first is just less chance of having a land.
Guys he's joking. Darren saw fit to post that exact statement (replacing 29 with 28) on my first Scepter Thrasios Primer I posted on this site. Incidentally, that was also the first and last time I really used it!
It's good to see you back Myojin!
Friends, I encourage ya'll to be kind when posting. No one likes to eat their words in a public setting and I'm hoping that we can agree that darrenhabib has made some improvements as a player and as a person since he posted that comment in Myojin's thread. I know that he has been responsive and constructive in my conversations with him, so I don't think it's fair to bring up the past.
Shall we agree to let it go?
With that being said, I think that there are some good questions to ask, now that the thread has developed a little more. How does this deck handle a resolved Cursed Totem or Linvala, Keeper of Silence? It seems like the deck wants to keep some interaction or removal in the deck in order to keep tabs on the table, but what's the balance between keeping answers in the deck and maintaining the combo lines?
29 lands is not a "competitive" deck. If you were to actually take this to a tournament you'd lose a high percentage of games due to bad mulls because you have no land hands. Even if you think you can operate on just 1 land with the other mana producing artifact/creatures, you don't get to choose your mulls. I'll assume this is a virtual deck, never actually been played? If you were actually to play back-to-back games with this deck, you'd soon find out that you just lose a number of games because you got greedy with the land count.
Most competitive Decks I see run 28-30 Lands though..
Heck, my Druid Deck has 27 Lands and I find I draw too many.. 'xD (If necessary, I usually Mulligan aggressively down to no more than 1 Forest, since the Deck is basically all Mana Dorks.)
It all depends on how you've built your deck. With enough fast mana sources (I generally like to see about 14+ mana sources under 2 CMC), you can easily run about 30-34 lands in a deck. While I know the comment was initially posted with sarcasm, I still think that it's a good point to address for other readers.
You almost scared me there for a second (my innovative use of Biomancer's Familiar was almost stillborn..) 'xD
Unfortunately the Phantasmal Image has to copy something that is already on the battlefield and not entering at the same time. Volrath's Shapeshifter come into play at the same time so is not considered on the battlefield, I know weird right, but I posted in the rulings forum to make sure it worked. Unfortunately it does not
PS. Your cEDH decklist says "29" Lands, but I count 30 (I noticed since you had Flooded Grove, which I didn't. Though I probably should include somehow, since a lot of combos/chains require a bunch of a particular Color.)
It is 30 lands, I've changed the quoted number reference.
[EDIT]
I got mislead by a rules guru intially saying that I could do this, but you can't make the Volrath's Shapeshifter a Protean Hulk. So it doesn't work.
According to that post you linked, it wouldn't work either, since the Volrath's would just become a 0/0 "Body Double" (since it'd "copy Body Double's ability too late.") :'(
I personally don't want to run [useless] 0-Drops, so I may just remove Flash altogether (wasn't originally planning to include Flash when first building the Deck, anyway..) This changes everything though; may have to go completely back to the drawing board.. >_<
I've got any idea that might work that I'm exploring.. will see. Nope, doesn't work.
Though there is an Arcum Dagsson line, but it involves A LOT of Cards (like Paradox Engine,) and I don't think it's worth the Deck "real estate." I may just have to give in and use the 0-Drops (on the brightside, I won't have to use any mismatched old/new border ones, since Dryad Arbor counts as one as well,) or forget about Flash..
One downside to the only feasible Hulk package involving Infinite Turns, is one of my LGS' puts an [inane house rule] limit on the amount of consecutive Turns one could take.. So it'd require some creative gymnastics to actually win with only 3-4 Turns. But I think I've come up with an absurd line.. lol.
For this to work, you'd need enough Mana Sources to get to 4 Mana by your 2nd consecutive turn:
Unearth Fatestitcher, to pod Peregrine Drake into DEN
Pairing DEN w/ disguised Body Double, flicker Body Double and have it ETB as Peregrine Drake
Infinite Mana/Vannifar uses
So then you do the win-con we originally had with Coiling Oracle and just get most of your Deck into play, all the Counterspells in your Hand, Beast Within the whole board, Rift the tokens away, and pass the turn because we're going to be winning the "fair way" by inevitably slow combat damage!
According to that post you linked, it wouldn't work either, since the Volrath's would just become a 0/0 "Body Double" (since it'd "copy Body Double's ability too late.") :'(
The rules guy said yes it would work at first, so I just ran with it.
Here is a combo that would work but requires another 1U.
I have a feeling that that Flash+Hulk combo is just trying to be forced to make it work. I mean, if it does work, it's all well and good, but it needs a lot of effort and mana to get it to go. I think it might be worth just going for the Ezuri+Sage combo because it's consistent and reliable to get off of the Flash+Hulk.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion Omnath, Locus of Mana Rhys the Exiled (Elves) Progenitus (Planeswalkers) Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks) Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord Kaalia the Vast Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general) Roon of the Hidden Realm
According to that post you linked, it wouldn't work either, since the Volrath's would just become a 0/0 "Body Double" (since it'd "copy Body Double's ability too late.") :'(
The rules guy said yes it would work at first, so I just ran with it.
Here is a combo that would work but requires another 1U.
Am I mistaken, but wouldn't step 11 come before step 10? You'd need to have cast Thousand-Year Elixir before you use it to untap Grand Architect, right?
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Am I mistaken, but wouldn't step 11 come before step 10? You'd need to have cast Thousand-Year Elixir before you use it to untap Grand Architect, right?
I have a feeling that that Flash+Hulk combo is just trying to be forced to make it work. I mean, if it does work, it's all well and good, but it needs a lot of effort and mana to get it to go. I think it might be worth just going for the Ezuri+Sage combo because it's consistent and reliable to get off of the Flash+Hulk.
I know, but it's like if a solution is out there then you'd want to streamline it potentially as much as possible. But I don't think it is, nobody seems to have any posts of lines other than the ones we've discussed. So it does look like Ezuri+Sage or having to use additional mana, or bust really.
I may just have to side that package in when at the LGS that doesn't allow infinite turns.
Now that I'm thinking about it, is Flash even necessary? The only time it'd even be used, is if you have both it and Hulk in the Hand, and the only other ways to get to that point, is with either Spellseeker or Survival of the Fittest (or Muddle in my case) in Hand, but if you had those, you could just win with Vannifar already. And without needing Flash, there's no longer a need for a "Hulk Package," since you could just Hulk for value if you ever chain into it (though the best lines don't need Hulk.)
So that'd free up like 4-5 Cards that could be used for added redundancy (maybe even Stax.) I wonedr if that'd be worth it..
PS. I just realized, for the same reason that Lightning Greaves doesn't work, wouldn't Sylvan Safekeeper be a lot worse, too? If you protect Vannifar, not only are you losing Lands which most likely prevents you from going off that Turn, you're also no longer able to use targeted Untappers.
I may just have to side that package in when at the LGS that doesn't allow infinite turns.
Now that I'm thinking about it, is Flash even necessary? The only time it'd even be used, is if you have both it and Hulk in the Hand, and the only other ways to get to that point, is with either Spellseeker or Survival of the Fittest (or Muddle in my case) in Hand, but if you had those, you could just win with Vannifar already. And without needing Flash, there's no longer a need for a "Hulk Package," since you could just Hulk for value if you ever chain into it (though the best lines don't need Hulk.)
So that'd free up like 4-5 Cards that could be used for added redundancy (maybe even Stax.) I wonedr if that'd be worth it..
So if you look at our different ways to go with Prime Speaker Vannifar it's a case of picking the line that best suites you at the time, whether that be mana available, cards in hand, trying to avoid artifact hate, etc.
What would our 6 cmc be? Too be honest I struggling to come up with a way, because so many cards have already been used, and introducing needing more mana defeats the purpose.
If you ended up trying say Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir line, then you'd need an additional 4 which defeats the purpose of even using this line in the first place.
Note that there is the Woodland Bellower line already if you have a mana creature and 1U. So the sequence should really try to avoid having to spend 1U, otherwise the whole Protean Hulk wouldn't even be required.
So at this stage I don't even have a way of winning without a backup plan with Ezuri + Sage when using Protean Hulk even with Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Please if anybody can give a combinations of creature I'll be pleased to know?
Basically I'm really struggling to come up with Protean Hulk lines of winning without having Ezuri + Sage. If you can give me some creatures to win with then that would be great.
You're focusing too much on the Protean Hulk. The main line I go for is the Trophy Mage line:
Pod Trophy Mage into Fatestitcher
Fatestitcher into Peregrine Drake
Peregrine Drake into Deadeye Navigator
Unearth Fatestitcher and pod it into Body Double copying Drake
create infinite Mana/Vannifar uses, win.
The main issue I've found with most chains, is that they require way too many Lands in play, and if you're starting from a 0-1 CMC Creature you're bouncing 1-2 back (when you say "requires 3 Land in play" do you mean AFTER any bounces? So if you're starting from a 0-creature, you'd need FIVE Lands in play.. which is not feasible in this deck outside of sac'ing a Veteran Explorer.)
To win without using a Hulk package, the most important creatures end up being Fatestitcher and Woodland Bellower, as they allow you to start two separate chains that can get you to both DEN and a Drake/Double in play. There are other ways to get there, depending on what you have in hand/on board, but that's the basic strat.
I've even had cases in my testing where I've just Hulked for a Deadeye. Though without a Hulk package, I think I might want Great Oak Guardian in the Deck, the lack of a non-Warden non-DEN 6-drop is definitely felt (and it can untap an unearthed Fatestitcher giving you an extra pod use in the pocket, which gives you more freedom.)
Yeah the problem with Disciple of the Ring is that there are not a lot of instants and sorcery in the deck. You'd have to have basically counterspelled something to get one into the graveyard, as I'm not playing cantrips like Preordain, Ponder, etc. So would just be too unreliable.
If Ghostly Flicker is an interesting card. I use it to combo in my Arcades, the Strategist deck, and eventually even just keep blinking out Eternal Witness to get it back for use every turn.
The only thing is that the enter the battlefield effects from Breaching Hippocamp, Deceiver Exarch, Bounding Krasis means that often you're actually sacrificing that creature to Prime Speaker Vannifar in the first place, so you can't use the exile ability to get an additional untap, unless you have another creature you are sacrificing, which honestly doesn't happen very often.
Better in a deck that has a lot of enter the battlefield value creatures as well.
You're focusing too much on the Protean Hulk. The main line I go for is the Trophy Mage line:
Pod Trophy Mage into Fatestitcher
Fatestitcher into Peregrine Drake
Peregrine Drake into Deadeye Navigator
Unearth Fatestitcher and pod it into Body Double copying Drake
create infinite Mana/Vannifar uses, win.
Yeah but it does require holding up 4 and exposes you to artifact removal, i.e. Nature's Claim, etc.
If you're wanting to hold up counterspells disruption, then this is a big factor.
Plus, obviously being able to Turn 1 or Turn 2 a win with Flash + Hulk is nice if it presents itself.
Then there is an ease if you do have Protean Hulk in your hand, that you can just Prime Speaker Vannifar into Spellseeker for Flash, freeing up complicated need for sequencing (that might be in hand, etc).
What's the line that requires the least amount of Lands in play? I feel like I focus too much on Drake lines, and they're not always feasible..
You're right though, about just being able to Pod for a Spellseeker if Hulk is in hand.
Swiftfoot Boots doesn't seem all that good, honestly.. For the good it does, I'd rather just have Lightning Greaves... If you're jamming Vannifar at 4 Mana without counters up, at least Greaves would protect it from Sorcery speed removal (can just pass the turn to move the greaves next turn if you needed targeting untappers.) With Boots, you'd have had to wait until 5 Mana, so it's the same amount and also doesn't really let you hold up any countermagic. In all the times I've seen Boots in my goldfishing/testing, it was never helpful.
Heck, if you had a 3drop to start a chain with, you could use Greaves on vanny, pod into Fatestitcher, move greaves to Fatestitcher, untap Vanny, move greaves back, and go from there.. Can't do that with the Boots.
The only time i see Boots being decent, is if you played it on a prior turn, and then cracked an LED to cast and equip Vanny (and that's without counters up.)
PS. I just realized, for the same reason as Lightning Greaves, wouldn't Sylvan Safekeeper be a lot worse, too? If you protect Vannifar, not only are you losing Lands which most likely prevents you from going off that Turn, you're also no longer able to use targeted Untappers.
Honestly, Vannifar is a lot slower and less resilient than Arcum, the only upside she has, is.. probably her access to Flash/Hulk. 'xD
So there isn't really any reason to get the pitchforks ready.. (Hopefully I convinced them.. *cough*)
Getting Double Blue isn't as easy as it sounds.. (For casting Vanny with Counters up, or Transmuting a Muddle. I definitely want to stick Dispel into my Deck, and may end up cutting Muddle, even though that Transmute is rather useful.. slow, but useful in a pinch.)
PS. If you're using Ezuri/Sage combo, don't be like me and run the bare minimum 0-Drops expecting Dryad Arbor to get you your 5th Experience Counter.. >_< (Because if you sac'd her to start a chain.. whoops. At least if you still had a Land drop, you could replay her after bouncing with Scryb.) I think I'm going to add that 0/3 (so I'd have Orni, Walking, Hangar, and the 0/3. 0/3 instead of Memnite because.. I think Memnite is ugly, and it also dies to Elesh Norn, for what it's worth.)
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What's the line that requires the least amount of Lands in play? I feel like I focus too much on Drake lines, and they're not always feasible..
You're right though, about just being able to Pod for a Spellseeker if Hulk is in hand.
Swiftfoot Boots doesn't seem all that good, honestly.. For the good it does, I'd rather just have Lightning Greaves... If you're jamming Vannifar at 4 Mana without counters up, at least Greaves would protect it from Sorcery speed removal (can just pass the turn to move the greaves next turn if you needed targeting untappers.) With Boots, you'd have had to wait until 5 Mana, so it's the same amount and also doesn't really let you hold up any countermagic. In all the times I've seen Boots in my goldfishing/testing, it was never helpful.
Heck, if you had a 3drop to start a chain with, you could use Greaves on vanny, pod into Fatestitcher, move greaves to Fatestitcher, untap Vanny, move greaves back, and go from there.. Can't do that with the Boots.
The only time i see Boots being decent, is if you played it on a prior turn, and then cracked an LED to cast and equip Vanny (and that's without counters up.)
PS. I just realized, for the same reason as Lightning Greaves, wouldn't Sylvan Safekeeper be a lot worse, too? If you protect Vannifar, not only are you losing Lands which most likely prevents you from going off that Turn, you're also no longer able to use targeted Untappers.
If you don't have an alternative way, then it's always 3 lands, or you could even get away with 2 lands if (Cloud of Faeries/Biomancer's Familiar).
I'll list some more realistic win cons that I can think of in Simic.
There actually a bunch of ways to get infinite mana, but I'll list the ones that are either mana efficient or don't already include Peregrine Drake/Palinchron/Cloud of Faeries.
Infinite mana win cons. Grand Architect + Pili-Pala, with the ability to get haste, so not having to pass the turn.
There are of course more, but this is an example of options.
So there are plenty of options, but they all just come down to how to get them into play and if they have stipulations with things like mana or even is summoning sickness a factor?
These are just examples, I'm trying to show how many paths you could potentially take. But these are with Prime Speaker Vannifar in play..
What I trying to show that there is still a lot of conceivable ways to win, it just comes down to brainstorming, finding the potential perfect matrix of creatures that suites your deck best. Which creatures perform multiple duties potentially. Which are the fastest to win, or have the least stipulations, etc, etc.
That's why I'm so focused on this aspect, because it's still like the start of this journey of discovering what configurations might end up being the best.
Honestly, Vannifar is a lot slower and less resilient than Arcum, the only upside she has, is.. probably her access to Flash/Hulk. 'xD
So there isn't really any reason to get the pitchforks ready.. (Hopefully I convinced them.. *cough*)
Getting Double Blue isn't as easy as it sounds.. (For casting Vanny with Counters up, or Transmuting a Muddle. I definitely want to stick Dispel into my Deck, and may end up cutting Muddle, even though that Transmute is rather useful.. slow, but useful in a pinch.)
PS. If you're using Ezuri/Sage combo, don't be like me and run the bare minimum 0-Drops expecting Dryad Arbor to get you your 5th Experience Counter.. >_< (Because if you sac'd her to start a chain.. whoops. At least if you still had a Land drop, you could replay her after bouncing with Scryb.) I think I'm going to add that 0/3 (so I'd have Orni, Walking, Hangar, and the 0/3. 0/3 instead of Memnite because.. I think Memnite is ugly, and it also dies to Elesh Norn, for what it's worth.)
Oh I didn't even factor in the Dryad Arbor, nice! Remember Sage of Hours, also counts towards your experience counters. So actually I could cut a Zero Drop...
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darrenhabib was the creator of one of the best copy-pastas of all time. There have been multiple songs written using those lyrics.
It's good to see you back Myojin!
Friends, I encourage ya'll to be kind when posting. No one likes to eat their words in a public setting and I'm hoping that we can agree that darrenhabib has made some improvements as a player and as a person since he posted that comment in Myojin's thread. I know that he has been responsive and constructive in my conversations with him, so I don't think it's fair to bring up the past.
Shall we agree to let it go?
With that being said, I think that there are some good questions to ask, now that the thread has developed a little more. How does this deck handle a resolved Cursed Totem or Linvala, Keeper of Silence? It seems like the deck wants to keep some interaction or removal in the deck in order to keep tabs on the table, but what's the balance between keeping answers in the deck and maintaining the combo lines?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Also, thanks for posting this compendium!
It all depends on how you've built your deck. With enough fast mana sources (I generally like to see about 14+ mana sources under 2 CMC), you can easily run about 30-34 lands in a deck. While I know the comment was initially posted with sarcasm, I still think that it's a good point to address for other readers.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Volrath's Shapeshifter come into play at the same time so is not considered on the battlefield, I know weird right, but I posted in the rulings forum to make sure it worked. Unfortunately it does not
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/804286-volraths-shapeshifter-body-double-phantasmal-image
For sure. It give's you access to a lot of important elements;
Mana creature: Voyaging Satyr, etc
Haste: Swiftfoot Boots
Untapper: Scryb Ranger, Kiora's Follower
Hand to library: Scroll Rack
Creature tutoring: Survival of the Fittest
Draw: Sylvan Library
It is 30 lands, I've changed the quoted number reference.
I was a silly goose. If you're trying to use her with haste, then you won't be able to target her with 'enter the battlefield' untaps.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I got mislead by a rules guru intially saying that I could do this, but you can't make the Volrath's Shapeshifter a Protean Hulk. So it doesn't work.
I have found a line with Grand Architect + Pili-Pala but it does require an additional U.
1.) Flash + Protean Hulk.
2.) Get Body Double + Sidisi's Faithful.
3.) Body Double copies Protean Hulk, sacrifice with Sidisi's Faithful returning Sidisi's Faithful to hand.
4.) Get Volrath's Shapeshifter + Trophy Mage.
Volrath's Shapeshifter becomes a copy of Body Double which can copy Protean Hulk.5.) Trophy Mage gets Thousand-Year Elixir.
6.) Cast Sidisi's Faithful for U sacrificing Volrath's Shapeshifter as Protean Hulk.
7.) Get Grand Architect + Pili-Pala + Birds of Paradise.
8.) Tap Trophy Mage, Grand Architect to get 4.
9.) Cast Thousand-Year Elixir for 3.
10.) Untap Grand Architect with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1 and tap Grand Architect for 2.
11.) Tap Birds of Paradise for U.
12.) Activate Grand Architect for U to make the Pili-Pala Blue.
13.) You can get infinite mana, and can cast Prime Speaker Vannifar.
..draw and play out you whole deck.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I personally don't want to run [useless] 0-Drops, so I may just remove Flash altogether (wasn't originally planning to include Flash when first building the Deck, anyway..) This changes everything though; may have to go completely back to the drawing board.. >_<
I've got any idea that might work that I'm exploring.. will see.Nope, doesn't work.Though there is an Arcum Dagsson line, but it involves A LOT of Cards (like Paradox Engine,) and I don't think it's worth the Deck "real estate." I may just have to give in and use the 0-Drops (on the brightside, I won't have to use any mismatched old/new border ones, since Dryad Arbor counts as one as well,) or forget about Flash..
One downside to the only feasible Hulk package involving Infinite Turns, is one of my LGS' puts an [inane house rule] limit on the amount of consecutive Turns one could take.. So it'd require some creative gymnastics to actually win with only 3-4 Turns. But I think I've come up with an absurd line.. lol.
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
Here is a combo that would work but requires another 1U.
1.) Flash + Protean Hulk.
2.) Get Snapcaster Mage + Eternal Witness + Birds of Paradise.
3.) Eternal Witness returns Protean Hulk.
4.) Snapcaster Mage targets Flash. Flashback Flash for 1U + Protean Hulk.
*This time there is no Flash in graveyard.
5.) Get Volrath's Shapeshifter + Pili-Pala + Sidisi's Faithful.
*Volrath's Shapeshifter becomes a copy Protean Hulk.
6.) Sacrifice Volrath's Shapeshifter as Protean Hulk with Sidisi's Faithful.
7.) Get Grand Architect + Trophy Mage.
8.) Trophy Mage gets Thousand-Year Elixir.
9.) Tap Trophy Mage, Grand Architect to get 4.
10.) Cast Thousand-Year Elixir for 3.
11.) Untap Grand Architect with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1 and tap Grand Architect for 2.
12.) Tap Birds of Paradise for U.
13.) Activate Grand Architect for U to make the Pili-Pala Blue.
14.) You can get infinite mana, and can cast Prime Speaker Vannifar.
..draw and play out you whole deck.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Rhys the Exiled (Elves)
Progenitus (Planeswalkers)
Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks)
Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord
Kaalia the Vast
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general)
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Am I mistaken, but wouldn't step 11 come before step 10? You'd need to have cast Thousand-Year Elixir before you use it to untap Grand Architect, right?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I know, but it's like if a solution is out there then you'd want to streamline it potentially as much as possible. But I don't think it is, nobody seems to have any posts of lines other than the ones we've discussed. So it does look like Ezuri+Sage or having to use additional mana, or bust really.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I may just have to side that package in when at the LGS that doesn't allow infinite turns.
Now that I'm thinking about it, is Flash even necessary? The only time it'd even be used, is if you have both it and Hulk in the Hand, and the only other ways to get to that point, is with either Spellseeker or Survival of the Fittest (or Muddle in my case) in Hand, but if you had those, you could just win with Vannifar already. And without needing Flash, there's no longer a need for a "Hulk Package," since you could just Hulk for value if you ever chain into it (though the best lines don't need Hulk.)
So that'd free up like 4-5 Cards that could be used for added redundancy (maybe even Stax.) I wonedr if that'd be worth it..
PS. I just realized, for the same reason that Lightning Greaves doesn't work, wouldn't Sylvan Safekeeper be a lot worse, too? If you protect Vannifar, not only are you losing Lands which most likely prevents you from going off that Turn, you're also no longer able to use targeted Untappers.
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
I had to rip the sections out due the combos not working. But a lot of the time you would be doing the Protean Hulk line with Prime Speaker Vannifar, just because it's the most mana efficient if you do have a mana creature.
So if you look at our different ways to go with Prime Speaker Vannifar it's a case of picking the line that best suites you at the time, whether that be mana available, cards in hand, trying to avoid artifact hate, etc.
These are our currently creature sequences;
Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir combo line
Requirements
Requirements
Requirements
Requirements
How would you win without say Ezuri + Sage?
You'd still have to get Peregrine Drake + Deadeye Navigator into play.
Now remember if we've already used a bunch of sequences. Our options will be much more limited by that point;
Let's look at the Vitalize line with a mana creature in play.
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop creature into -> Spellseeker getting Vitalize.
2.) Cast Vitalize for G to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar and mana creature.
3.) Sacrifice Spellseeker into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
4.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Mnemonic Wall returning Vitalize.
5.) Cast Vitalize for G to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar and mana creature.
6.) Sacrifice Mnemonic Wall into -> Greenwarden of Murasa returning Vitalize.
7.) Cast Vitalize for G to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar and mana creature.
8.) Sacrifice Greenwarden of Murasa into -> Protean Hulk.
9.) Exile Greenwarden of Murasa from your graveyard to return Vitalize.
10.) Cast Vitalize for G to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar and mana creature.
11.) Sacrifice Protean Hulk into ..
What would our 6 cmc be? Too be honest I struggling to come up with a way, because so many cards have already been used, and introducing needing more mana defeats the purpose.
If you ended up trying say Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir line, then you'd need an additional 4 which defeats the purpose of even using this line in the first place.
Note that there is the Woodland Bellower line already if you have a mana creature and 1U. So the sequence should really try to avoid having to spend 1U, otherwise the whole Protean Hulk wouldn't even be required.
So at this stage I don't even have a way of winning without a backup plan with Ezuri + Sage when using Protean Hulk even with Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Please if anybody can give a combinations of creature I'll be pleased to know?
-OR-
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop creature into -> Spellseeker getting Crop Rotation.
2.) Cast Crop Rotation for G sacrificing a land and getting Minamo, School at Water's Edge.
3.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Minamo, School at Water's Edge for U.
4.) Sacrifice Spellseeker into -> Archaeomancer returning Crop Rotation.
5.) Cast Crop Rotation for G sacrificing a land and getting Wirewood Lodge.
6.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Wirewood Lodge for G.
7.) Sacrifice Archaeomancer into -> Peregrine Drake to untap your lands.
8.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Minamo, School at Water's Edge for U.
9.) Sacrifice Peregrine Drake into -> Woodland Bellower searching for Bounding Krasis to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
10.) Sacrifice Woodland Bellower into -> Protean Hulk.
11.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Wirewood Lodge for G.
12.) Sacrifice Protean Hulk into ..
6 cmc = Body Double + Quirion Ranger
Body Double copies Peregrine Drake in your graveyard. Untap all lands including Wirewood Lodge, Minamo, School at Water's Edge.
Now you can sacrifice all the way up to Deadeye Navigator. Now remember that you'll still need 1U at the end to activate Deadeye.
So although you can get 2 untaps of Prime Speaker Vannifar at this stage, having 1U still available is a different story.
So if you only have 4 lands, which is minimum requirement, then you'll only get 1 untap.
Quirion Ranger -> Scryb Ranger -> Bounding Krasis -> Breaching Hippocamp -> Mnemonic Wall -> Deadeye Navigator.
If you want 3 lands in play, then it's going to be hard to use both Quirion Ranger AND Scryb Ranger. The combo required at least 4 lands to start with, but even having a Forest at this stage is hard (let alone 2), because you've sacrificed two lands already to get Wirewood Lodge, Minamo, School at Water's Edge into play.
Let's say our literally lands are; Wirewood Lodge, Minamo, School at Water's Edge, Command Tower, Tropical Island.
We can Tap U and return the Tropical Island to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Scryb Ranger.
Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Minamo, School at Water's Edge and the U from the Tropical Island.
Bounding Krasis -> Breaching Hippocamp -> Mnemonic Wall.
But if we untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Wirewood Lodge, that'll leave us with no mana.
Mnemonic Wall can get Crop Rotation and get Gaea's Cradle. So this will give us at least one additional mana.
You could Crop Rotation for Gaea's Cradle. But this leaves us without U.
Basically I'm really struggling to come up with Protean Hulk lines of winning without having Ezuri + Sage. If you can give me some creatures to win with then that would be great.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
To win without using a Hulk package, the most important creatures end up being Fatestitcher and Woodland Bellower, as they allow you to start two separate chains that can get you to both DEN and a Drake/Double in play. There are other ways to get there, depending on what you have in hand/on board, but that's the basic strat.
I've even had cases in my testing where I've just Hulked for a Deadeye. Though without a Hulk package, I think I might want Great Oak Guardian in the Deck, the lack of a non-Warden non-DEN 6-drop is definitely felt (and it can untap an unearthed Fatestitcher giving you an extra pod use in the pocket, which gives you more freedom.)
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
If Ghostly Flicker is an interesting card. I use it to combo in my Arcades, the Strategist deck, and eventually even just keep blinking out Eternal Witness to get it back for use every turn.
The only thing is that the enter the battlefield effects from Breaching Hippocamp, Deceiver Exarch, Bounding Krasis means that often you're actually sacrificing that creature to Prime Speaker Vannifar in the first place, so you can't use the exile ability to get an additional untap, unless you have another creature you are sacrificing, which honestly doesn't happen very often.
Better in a deck that has a lot of enter the battlefield value creatures as well.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
If you're wanting to hold up counterspells disruption, then this is a big factor.
Plus, obviously being able to Turn 1 or Turn 2 a win with Flash + Hulk is nice if it presents itself.
Then there is an ease if you do have Protean Hulk in your hand, that you can just Prime Speaker Vannifar into Spellseeker for Flash, freeing up complicated need for sequencing (that might be in hand, etc).
Like it's not nothing.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
What's the line that requires the least amount of Lands in play? I feel like I focus too much on Drake lines, and they're not always feasible..
You're right though, about just being able to Pod for a Spellseeker if Hulk is in hand.
Swiftfoot Boots doesn't seem all that good, honestly.. For the good it does, I'd rather just have Lightning Greaves... If you're jamming Vannifar at 4 Mana without counters up, at least Greaves would protect it from Sorcery speed removal (can just pass the turn to move the greaves next turn if you needed targeting untappers.) With Boots, you'd have had to wait until 5 Mana, so it's the same amount and also doesn't really let you hold up any countermagic. In all the times I've seen Boots in my goldfishing/testing, it was never helpful.
Heck, if you had a 3drop to start a chain with, you could use Greaves on vanny, pod into Fatestitcher, move greaves to Fatestitcher, untap Vanny, move greaves back, and go from there.. Can't do that with the Boots.
The only time i see Boots being decent, is if you played it on a prior turn, and then cracked an LED to cast and equip Vanny (and that's without counters up.)
PS. I just realized, for the same reason as Lightning Greaves, wouldn't Sylvan Safekeeper be a lot worse, too? If you protect Vannifar, not only are you losing Lands which most likely prevents you from going off that Turn, you're also no longer able to use targeted Untappers.
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
Get your Linvalas ready, your humilities, your cursed totems, your pithing needles, your torpor orbs, your hushwing gryffs. It's gonna be a a circus
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
So there isn't really any reason to get the pitchforks ready.. (Hopefully I convinced them.. *cough*)
Getting Double Blue isn't as easy as it sounds.. (For casting Vanny with Counters up, or Transmuting a Muddle. I definitely want to stick Dispel into my Deck, and may end up cutting Muddle, even though that Transmute is rather useful.. slow, but useful in a pinch.)
PS. If you're using Ezuri/Sage combo, don't be like me and run the bare minimum 0-Drops expecting Dryad Arbor to get you your 5th Experience Counter.. >_< (Because if you sac'd her to start a chain.. whoops. At least if you still had a Land drop, you could replay her after bouncing with Scryb.) I think I'm going to add that 0/3 (so I'd have Orni, Walking, Hangar, and the 0/3. 0/3 instead of Memnite because.. I think Memnite is ugly, and it also dies to Elesh Norn, for what it's worth.)
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
C'mon, guys! All those cards hurt Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, too! :'(
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
If you don't have an alternative way, then it's always 3 lands, or you could even get away with 2 lands if (Cloud of Faeries/Biomancer's Familiar).
I'll list some more realistic win cons that I can think of in Simic.
There actually a bunch of ways to get infinite mana, but I'll list the ones that are either mana efficient or don't already include Peregrine Drake/Palinchron/Cloud of Faeries.
Infinite mana win cons.
Grand Architect + Pili-Pala, with the ability to get haste, so not having to pass the turn.
Voltaic Construct + Toymaker/Karn, Silver Golem + any artifact with CMC one or more that taps for more than 2 = infinite mana
Trinket Mage = Mana Vault.
Treasure Mage = Coveted Jewel.
*Any creature that can copy Fatestitcher.
Deadeye Quartermaster = Illusionist's Bracers.
Trinket Mage = Expedition Map = Wirewood Lodge/Gaea's Cradle.
For copying the Trinket Mage look at the section "Copying creatures".
======
Non infinite mana win cons.
Laboratory Maniac + removing your library.
*Could be Leveler or Hermit Druid (with no basics in the deck). Or Cephalid Aristocrat/Cephalid Illusionist + Lightning Greaves/Umbral Mantle/Shuko.
Magus of the Future/Future Sight + Etherium Sculptor (or other mana reducers) + Sensei's Divining Top = draw your deck.
Trinket Mage = Sensei's Divining Top.
Trophy Mage = Rings of Brighthearth.
Trinket Mage = Expedition Map = Magosi, the Waterveil/Candelabra of Tawnos/Deserted Temple.
For copying the Trinket Mage look at the section "Copying creatures".
Treasure Mage = Knowledge Pool.
Trinket Mage = Amulet of Vigor.
Deadeye Quartermaster = Illusionist's Bracers.
Trophy Mage = Ashnod's Altar.
Trophy Mage = Ashnod's Altar/Phyrexian Altar.
Spellseeker = Life from the Loam.
Spellseeker = Mystical Tutor = Walk the Aeons.
For copying the Spellseeker look at the section "Copying creatures".
So there are plenty of options, but they all just come down to how to get them into play and if they have stipulations with things like mana or even is summoning sickness a factor?
For example, you could go Protean Hulk into Woodfall Primus.
Getting Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Trophy Mage + Quirion Ranger.
Trophy Mage gets Ashnod's Altar. You need to cast it however, so that 3 extra.
Maybe you could chain Trophy Mage -> Glen Elendra Archmage to get a pretty good lock on opponents. Not impossible to get out of, but still pretty dece.
-or-
Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Scryb Ranger + Hidden Herbalists.
Scryb Ranger -> Trophy Mage.
Now you only need 1 mana, but can't chain into Glen Elendra Archmage until next turn.
You could go Magus of the Future + Etherium Sculptor (or other mana reducers) + Sensei's Divining Top = draw your deck.
With Prime Speaker Vannifar in play you could go Protean Hulk into Etherium Sculptor + Trinket Mage + Quirion Ranger.
Trinket Mage gets Sensei's Divining Top.
Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Quirion Ranger.
Sacrifice Trinket Mage -> Breaching Hippocamp -> Magus of the Future.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Knowledge Pool = lockdown (opponents can't cast spells from hand).
With Prime Speaker Vannifar in play Protean Hulk into;
Treasure Mage, Quirion Ranger, Hidden Herbalists.
Treasure Mage gets Knowledge Pool.
Treasure Mage -> Breaching Hippocamp -> Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
You need an addtional 4 to cast the Knowledge Pool.
-or-
If you had an additional untap source then you could get;
Treasure Mage, Grand Architect.
You can use all your blue creatures (Treasure Mage, Grand Architect, Breaching Hippocamp, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir) to get 8 easily casting Knowledge Pool.
Laboratory Maniac + removing your library.
With Prime Speaker Vannifar in play Protean Hulk into;
Quirion Ranger + Fatestitcher + Hapless Researcher.
Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Quirion Ranger.
Sacrifice Fatestitcher -> Chakram Retriever.
Cast a spell to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar
Sacrifice Quirion Ranger -> Scryb Ranger -> Laboratory Maniac.
Unearth Fatestitcher for U and untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Sacrifice Fatestitcher -> Leveler.
Draw a card with Hapless Researcher to win.
These are just examples, I'm trying to show how many paths you could potentially take. But these are with Prime Speaker Vannifar in play..
What I trying to show that there is still a lot of conceivable ways to win, it just comes down to brainstorming, finding the potential perfect matrix of creatures that suites your deck best. Which creatures perform multiple duties potentially. Which are the fastest to win, or have the least stipulations, etc, etc.
That's why I'm so focused on this aspect, because it's still like the start of this journey of discovering what configurations might end up being the best.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
[EDIT]
Actually that makes a big difference to Protean Hulk piles that you want to get use out of Quirion Ranger to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, as you can guarantee with Dryad Arbor.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!