Crop Rotation.. Honestly, now that Palinchron is out, the first chain I came up with, isn't possible; so all this does is fetch a Minamo to potentially get past the "5-CMC Hump" if Vitalize is gone somehow (but I guess Mobilize would have done that better anyway.. so maybe I should drop it after all. :'(
How much disruption do I REALLY need, and can I go down some to squeeze in SotF+Ulamog.. 'xD Even just the utility of being able to fetch a Veteran Explorer to start a chain and have extra Lands to go off, is great imo.
PS. You say that opponents would concede because "the writing is on the wall," but you could literally just recur and Beast Within the entire board and then Cyclonic Rift to poof all the Tokens away; can find both simply by flickering Spellseeker, so don't even have to worry about Decking yourself. ~.^
PSS. I totally forgot my list had Glen Elendra Archmage in it.. I wonder if it's too slow, but if it's out, it's great for stopping stuff.
Crop Rotation.. Honestly, now that Palinchron is out, the first chain I came up with, isn't possible; so all this does is fetch a Minamo to potentially get past the "5-CMC Hump" if Vitalize is gone somehow (but I guess Mobilize would have done that better anyway.. so maybe I should drop it after all. :'(
How much disruption do I REALLY need, and can I go down some to squeeze in SotF+Ulamog.. 'xD Even just the utility of being able to fetch a Veteran Explorer to start a chain and have extra Lands to go off, is great imo.
PS. You say that opponents would concede because "the writing is on the wall," but you could literally just recur and Beast Within the entire board and then Cyclonic Rift to poof all the Tokens away; can find both simply by flickering Spellseeker, so don't even have to worry about Decking yourself. ~.^
PSS. I totally forgot my list had Glen Elendra Archmage in it.. I wonder if it's too slow, but if it's out, it's great for stopping stuff.
I really like the Tolaria West in my 75% list because it puts a land into the graveyard for World Shaper, and so does Crop Rotation. Like they are key cards for that deck.
But for the cEDH side I think the Tolaria West is probably too slow in general.
Let's break it down a bit.
A lot of your games are going to be Turn 1 mana creature giving yourself 3 mana on Turn 2. How many 3 mana spells (or less) that we would actually want to play? There are about 25 cards that you'd be happy playing, so that's a 94% chance of having a play on Turn 2 or Turn 3.
So this is pretty high, asking the question "are you likely to transmute Tolaria West instead in that window?"
You'd have to say 94% of the time no, even if you do have it in your opener.
If you're transmuting Tolaria West for a Pact of Negation in this Turn 2 or Turn 3 window then, you realistically need 3 additional lands at your disposal if looking to combo with Drake + Navigator. Given only 29 lands in the deck, this isn't going to happen all that often.
Also if you're going for the Vitalize line then you'd need that Turn 1 or Turn 2 mana creature AND a Turn 2 or Turn 3 creature to sacrifice. So again you wouldn't use it trying to go for that line either, unless you were being super patient. But you trade off trying to get counterspell backup like this, for speed of going off before your opponents get enough mana and draw more cards for potential disruption.
What if we go for Lion's Eye Diamond in that window (Turn 2 or Turn 3)? Well we were looking to cast Prime Speaker Vannifar on Turn 3 or Turn 4 anyway, so the opportunity for the excess mana is pretty much lost.
The only time transmuting for Lion's Eye Diamond is going to really help is if Prime Speaker Vannifar is removed immediately. Which will happen a lot of games. So I think this play is a solid backup plan to getting to the commander tax.
Although again it could just be a land you'd play, that can work for you in the means time leading up to casting Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Plus if opponents have a way to remove Prime Speaker Vannifar, it's already going to happen before you get to use her, so likely Glen Elendra Archmage wouldn't do anything for you anyway.
I guess what I am saying is that Glen Elendra Archmage is only ever going to be cast from your hand, so it's pretty slow.
But you can see why I would always prefer to choose the creature only lines because it doesn't expose you to other sorts of removal, and you can be pretty sure that creature removal would have already happened the moment you use Prime Speaker Vannifar.
So in that respect even if you cast Prime Speaker Vannifar and say have haste, when she tap the first time, the removal will happen, so that would be before you could even get Glen Elendra Archmage into play from a trying to chain into it.
That's why I've got Temur Sabertooth and Phantasmal Image in my list. (Though squeezing everything I want, is hard.. I think I may just end up getting rid of the Winter Orb, not sure..)
If I don't have Trinket Mage anymore, do you think Lotus Petal is worth keeping in the Deck?
Can't you just blink a soulbound Deadeye Navigator in response to targeted removal?
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Can't you just blink a soulbound Deadeye Navigator in response to targeted removal?
The main issue is that usually you only have enough Mana for one Soulbond use, which you use to start the infinite Mana loop, so if they cast the Removal in response to that, you're left with no Mana to pay for bouncing DEN. But waiting to (or doing lines that) get extra Mana for "free" (not needing Disruption in Hand/board) protection if you suspect it, might not be a bad plan in some cases.
Can't you just blink a soulbound Deadeye Navigator in response to targeted removal?
The main issue is that usually you only have enough Mana for one Soulbond use, which you use to start the infinite Mana loop, so if they cast the Removal in response to that, you're left with no Mana to pay for bouncing DEN. But waiting to (or doing lines that) get extra Mana for "free" (not needing Disruption in Hand/board) protection if you suspect it, might not be a bad plan in some cases.
True, but bouncing it with Temur Sabertooth costs the same amount of mana as blinking Deadeye Navigator. If you're going to win that same turn, then Pact of Negation or Force of Will would be good ways to protect the combo when it begins to go off. That is actual free mana.
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Can't you just blink a soulbound Deadeye Navigator in response to targeted removal?
Yes of course, and realistically 99% once the Deadeye Navigator hits the board it's probably too late for your opponents.
Because firstly they should be using removal on Prime Speaker Vannifar as you start chaining in the first place. So most of the time if you're Podding into it, opponents probably don't have creature removal anyway.
I was essentially talking hypothetically when you might combo as early as possible with only 3 land in play, and you literally have to tap out for the Deadeye Navigator activation. But again your opponents would have to be super genius worthy to have the patience to wait until you specifically had gotten to that point, and not have been tempted to use their creature removal on Prime Speaker Vannifar.
For the cEDH deck their is a Flash + Protean Hulk combo you can do with two lands in play, so it is possible to get caught there with tapping out for the activation's, say on Turn 2.
The only other probably realistic scenario of the Deadeye Navigator getting removed with a Swords to Plowshares, etc, is if you hard cast it during the game, tapping out for the activation. Deadeye Navigator is a key unique card to many of the combos, so if you have it in your hand , then it is something that you'd have to deploy to get those infinite's going.
Only the cards that can put back into library can help you out with trying to avoid hard casting it in that case.
So you're right it's not going to come up that much (if ever).
True, but bouncing it with Temur Sabertooth costs the same amount of mana as blinking Deadeye Navigator. If you're going to win that same turn, then Pact of Negation or Force of Will would be good ways to protect the combo when it begins to go off. That is actual free mana.
I only mentioned Sabertooth as a redundant back-up plan in the off-chance DEN gets exiled, as the Sabertooth still allows you to go infinite with a Phantasmal Image and Peregrine Drake. As for the free Counters, obviously that'd be the best case scenario, but you won't always have them in hand.
Something interesting I just thought of, if you have DEN stuck in Hand and not enough Mana to hardcast it, if you had Flash in Hand (maybe even using Spellseeker to tutor it up,) you could cheat it out and then flicker either it (or a Drake/Faerie, if they're out, first to get some extra mana) in response. ;P
So Vannifar is definitely looking to become contender for Tier1 status? Any of you think she'd be banned along the lines of Leovold? Because she pretty much cheats creatures into play which is something commanders like Kaalia do anyways.
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So Vannifar is definitely looking to become contender for Tier1 status? Any of you think she'd be banned along the lines of Leovold? Because she pretty much cheats creatures into play which is something commanders like Kaalia do anyways.
I personally don't think she will be banned, for the same reasons she is similar to Captain Sisay and Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, and they remained unbanned.
The RC remain very unwilling to ban legendary creatures in general.
The exception to this rule is Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, but at two mana, he just proved to provide too much mana consistently with giving you access to 6 mana Turn 3 by just playing Forests and him.
But I have to admit, she does provide the most avenues to win out of all of them by getting to untap for your turn with her in play, but there are stipulations. If you review my cEDH section, you can see that you still need support cards, and you need to have things line up a bit.
But she is a commander that demands being disrupted, but in this respect the more elements you can disrupt against her, the more restrictive the setups become and thus harder.
Yeah, what you've been doing so far has been helping me consider adding Vannifar to Sidisi, Brood Tyrant. If it's at all possible, could you check my chain here to see if it's correct? A bit of warning though; it is plenty convoluted, lol.
EDIT:
I just recently updated the chain. If you do check it out, please make sure you're seeing the 38-step version.
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Yeah, I feel like she compares best to Arcum, as he has a similar gameplan in untapping (or having haste) along with a creature, and then tutoring your way to a win using that creature. The main differences I see, is that Vannifar can START winning easier, but has a lot less redundancy than Arcum.. So while I don't think she's better than Arcum from a competitive standpoint, the ease of winning may make her show up on the RC's radar moreso than Arcum does.. (which has me worried.)
But since both require not just one, but two, creatures in play.. it's not that hard to stop. We'll have to see.
Crop Rotation.. Honestly, now that Palinchron is out, the first chain I came up with, isn't possible; so all this does is fetch a Minamo to potentially get past the "5-CMC Hump" if Vitalize is gone somehow (but I guess Mobilize would have done that better anyway.. so maybe I should drop it after all. :'(
I actually put the Crop Rotation into the cEDH in the end, because as you pointed out there is actually a combo line to be had..
cEDH - Competitive EDH
Just in case there have been previous readers of this thread, I've now pretty much completed the cEDH section, with a deck that I've been tinkering with even up to the last minute. So if you're interested it's a pretty lengthy read, but summarizes a lot of elements that you might want to think about approaching your own builds.
I spent a lot of time on it, basically obsessed, so happy to say that it's much more complete in nature than when I first started the section.
I've been making minor changes to the cEDH deck list, but I feel that it's in a pretty well tuned state for the approach I have now.
Would love feedback, further ideas, and any potential sequencing that can short-cut number of creatures, mana needed, etc.
Thanks for your hard work and dedication to Prime Speaker Vannifar! It has helped and inspired me into making her the secret partner in my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck. It really helped me look at all the cards in my deck and analyze how well they go together with a minimal amount of changes. This is a thread I will definitely keep an eye out for. When I update my OP I will definitely mention this one.
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Hmm, yeah, you're right, I never thought of getting the Rotation twice (the way you use Vitalize,) I was more fixated on Peregrine untapping.. 'xD
You're actually running Lumbering Falls in the Deck [now]? o_0 I mean, it's one of my favorite Lands, but it is kind of slow and costly to activate.. But I guess if you already had Vannifar in play, you don't really need the Mana, depending on the line you choose. Hmm..
I also notice you put Survival back? I did too, and kept Ula as well. I see you went with both Chrome Mox AND Mana Vault? Hmm..
No Mana Drain? Are the colors that hard to pull off? I wouldn't think so, what with it being a 2Color Deck.. And it can ramp you into an earlier Vannifar, so is it really worth cutting? I see, there's no point ramping into Vannifar, when that risks not having the protection to STICK Vannifar.. You've got a point.
And yeah, I probably will have to cut the Winter Orb as well to make room to put Crop Rotation back in.
One thing I noticed in your cEDH write-up, is you mention that the only ways to feasibly play Revoker or Spellskite is if you naturally draw them, but with Survival [back] in the deck, you could tutor them up that way. I think they might still be worth an include (Revoker at least, since it can stop some enemy Commanders.)
Another thing, is that you mention that the reason you're not running Ula in your cEDH list is because there is more redundancy in the list so it's not necessary, but literally a paragraph above you mention that there ISN'T redundancy [for certain chains]... 'xD
Thanks for your hard work and dedication to Prime Speaker Vannifar! It has helped and inspired me into making her the secret partner in my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck. It really helped me look at all the cards in my deck and analyze how well they go together with a minimal amount of changes. This is a thread I will definitely keep an eye out for. When I update my OP I will definitely mention this one.
Thanks DementedKirby, I appreciate that. I put a lot of work into this one.
Yeah having access to Black in Sultai opens up a whole slew of potential interactions with her in a 99. I'll post little Prime Speaker Vannifar interactions I might think of with Black creatures in your primer when they come to me.
Hmm, yeah, you're right, I never thought of getting the Rotation twice (the way you use Vitalize,) I was more fixated on Peregrine untapping.. 'xD
You're actually running Lumbering Falls in the Deck [now]? o_0 I mean, it's one of my favorite Lands, but it is kind of slow and costly to activate.. But I guess if you already had Vannifar in play, you don't really need the Mana, depending on the line you choose. Hmm..
I also notice you put Survival back? I did too, and kept Ula as well. I see you went with both Chrome Mox AND Mana Vault? Hmm..
No Mana Drain? Are the colors that hard to pull off? I wouldn't think so, what with it being a 2Color Deck.. And it can ramp you into an earlier Vannifar, so is it really worth cutting? I see, there's no point ramping into Vannifar, when that risks not having the protection to STICK Vannifar.. You've got a point.
And yeah, I probably will have to cut the Winter Orb as well to make room to put Crop Rotation back in.
One thing I noticed in your cEDH write-up, is you mention that the only ways to feasibly play Revoker or Spellskite is if you naturally draw them, but with Survival [back] in the deck, you could tutor them up that way. I think they might still be worth an include (Revoker at least, since it can stop some enemy Commanders.)
Another thing, is that you mention that the reason you're not running Ula in your cEDH list is because there is more redundancy in the list so it's not necessary, but literally a paragraph above you mention that there ISN'T redundancy [for certain chains]... 'xD
The Lumbering Falls is probably a mistake, but man-lands have so much potential to start some of the combos. But at 4 mana to activate, this would only be if the game went longer, and say a board wipe had been done (along with Prime Speaker Vannifar) and so without a mana creature, and have quite a few lands in play. Maybe under a tight Stax game.
Yeah I put back in Survival, it's just got too many things it can do for the deck. You can use it to search for Protean Hulk and just Prime Speaker Vannifar into Spellseeker for Flash.
You can discard larger creatures for potentially setting them up with Volrath's Shapeshifter or Body Double. You can use it to get a mana creature if necessary (which can be super important).
Being able to search for Fatestitcher and then discarding it gives you both an untap source and another creature to sacrifice at 4cmc, which is super powerful in this deck.
The thing is that Survival is only one card in the deck however, so Revoker and Spellskite still really can't be reliable drawn most games. Plus I can't use Green Sun's Zenith on them.
Hey there! Just wanted to post in this thread about how much I love Vannifar and that I'm working on a decklist myself for her. But I've also found a silly combo that kills opponents through direct damage and is loopable.
It requires Vannifar and either an equipped Thornbite Staff or Intruder Alarm to keep untapping her.
The Tracer and Shaman are good for putting combo pieces in graveyard back into your deck should they somehow end up there. Since 5 CMC is open, you can get any utility creature desired at the time. Hulk is an auto include in the deck obviously. The Doom Engine is just your source of damage while the Strider gets around no damage clauses like Glacial Chasm.
What do you think? Just thought I'd put this out there for anyone else who wants to try it out instead of another combo.
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Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion Omnath, Locus of Mana Rhys the Exiled (Elves) Progenitus (Planeswalkers) Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks) Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord Kaalia the Vast Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general) Roon of the Hidden Realm
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It sort of freed up a slot as well, and I really think the Misdirection can be another excellent way of having protection on the important first time you "probably" tap out to cast her.
The thing is that Survival is only one card in the deck however, so Revoker and Spellskite still really can't be reliable drawn most games.
Honestly, I'm tempted to run Muddle the Mixture, as a way to Tutor for either Flash or Survival (among other useful things.)
PS. Your cEDH decklist says "29" Lands, but I count 30 (I noticed since you had Flooded Grove, which I didn't. Though I probably should include somehow, since a lot of combos/chains require a bunch of a particular Color.)
29 lands is not a "competitive" deck. If you were to actually take this to a tournament you'd lose a high percentage of games due to bad mulls because you have no land hands. Even if you think you can operate on just 1 land with the other mana producing artifact/creatures, you don't get to choose your mulls. I'll assume this is a virtual deck, never actually been played? If you were actually to play back-to-back games with this deck, you'd soon find out that you just lose a number of games because you got greedy with the land count. Every mull after the first is just less chance of having a land.
29 lands is not a "competitive" deck. If you were to actually take this to a tournament you'd lose a high percentage of games due to bad mulls because you have no land hands. Even if you think you can operate on just 1 land with the other mana producing artifact/creatures, you don't get to choose your mulls. I'll assume this is a virtual deck, never actually been played? If you were actually to play back-to-back games with this deck, you'd soon find out that you just lose a number of games because you got greedy with the land count.
Most competitive Decks I see run 28-30 Lands though..
Heck, my Druid Deck has 27 Lands and I find I draw too many.. 'xD (If necessary, I usually Mulligan aggressively down to no more than 1 Forest, since the Deck is basically all Mana Dorks.)
I'm down to a couple of last few considerations, which are:
PS. You say that opponents would concede because "the writing is on the wall," but you could literally just recur and Beast Within the entire board and then Cyclonic Rift to poof all the Tokens away; can find both simply by flickering Spellseeker, so don't even have to worry about Decking yourself. ~.^
PSS. I totally forgot my list had Glen Elendra Archmage in it.. I wonder if it's too slow, but if it's out, it's great for stopping stuff.
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
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UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
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But for the cEDH side I think the Tolaria West is probably too slow in general.
Let's break it down a bit.
A lot of your games are going to be Turn 1 mana creature giving yourself 3 mana on Turn 2. How many 3 mana spells (or less) that we would actually want to play? There are about 25 cards that you'd be happy playing, so that's a 94% chance of having a play on Turn 2 or Turn 3.
Trophy Mage
Thousand-Year Elixir
Intruder Alarm
Dosan the Falling Leaf
Grand Architect
Joraga Treespeaker
Kiora's Follower
Devoted Druid
Priest of Titania
Voyaging Satyr
Pili-Pala
Renegade Doppelganger
Coiling Oracle
Lightning Greaves
Green Sun's Zenith
Lightning Greaves
Sylvan Library
Birds of Paradise
Arbor Elf
Elvish Mystic
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Concordant Crossroads
Sylvan Safekeeper
You'd have to say 94% of the time no, even if you do have it in your opener.
If you're transmuting Tolaria West for a Pact of Negation in this Turn 2 or Turn 3 window then, you realistically need 3 additional lands at your disposal if looking to combo with Drake + Navigator. Given only 29 lands in the deck, this isn't going to happen all that often.
Also if you're going for the Vitalize line then you'd need that Turn 1 or Turn 2 mana creature AND a Turn 2 or Turn 3 creature to sacrifice. So again you wouldn't use it trying to go for that line either, unless you were being super patient. But you trade off trying to get counterspell backup like this, for speed of going off before your opponents get enough mana and draw more cards for potential disruption.
What if we go for Lion's Eye Diamond in that window (Turn 2 or Turn 3)? Well we were looking to cast Prime Speaker Vannifar on Turn 3 or Turn 4 anyway, so the opportunity for the excess mana is pretty much lost.
The only time transmuting for Lion's Eye Diamond is going to really help is if Prime Speaker Vannifar is removed immediately. Which will happen a lot of games. So I think this play is a solid backup plan to getting to the commander tax.
Although again it could just be a land you'd play, that can work for you in the means time leading up to casting Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Chrome Mox vs Mana Vault - I think the Mana Vault has more potential being that you can cast it Turn 1 to play a Turn 2 Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Plus if Prime Speaker Vannifar is removed immediately it has way more potential of getting you back up to the commander tax.
Lotus Petal doesn't look very good in your deck in my opinion.
The most important element of our lines of winning is that we are always chaining up.
So if you were to chain into Glen Elendra Archmage then you really need to have some way of untapping Prime Speaker Vannifar. And there really isn't a lot of ways to untap her without the combo sequences;
Thousand-Year Elixir, Vitalize, Scryb Ranger, Quirion Ranger, Kiora's Follower, Fatestitcher, Intruder Alarm.
So it's small percentages you get the "luxury" of chaining into Glen Elendra Archmage with Prime Speaker Vannifar herself and get to untap her again.
Plus if opponents have a way to remove Prime Speaker Vannifar, it's already going to happen before you get to use her, so likely Glen Elendra Archmage wouldn't do anything for you anyway.
I guess what I am saying is that Glen Elendra Archmage is only ever going to be cast from your hand, so it's pretty slow.
The only literal time you'd use this line is if you had an untapper, and you were specifically going for the Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir line. You can chain into the Glen Elendra Archmage from the Trophy Mage and have Glen Elendra Archmage up for countering a spell like Nature's Claim for when you play Thousand-Year Elixir.
So now we are talking about Vitalize, Scryb Ranger, Quirion Ranger, Kiora's Follower, Fatestitcher specifically as the untappers. That's pretty narrow.
But you can see why I would always prefer to choose the creature only lines because it doesn't expose you to other sorts of removal, and you can be pretty sure that creature removal would have already happened the moment you use Prime Speaker Vannifar.
So in that respect even if you cast Prime Speaker Vannifar and say have haste, when she tap the first time, the removal will happen, so that would be before you could even get Glen Elendra Archmage into play from a trying to chain into it.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Can't you just blink a soulbound Deadeye Navigator in response to targeted removal?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
True, but bouncing it with Temur Sabertooth costs the same amount of mana as blinking Deadeye Navigator. If you're going to win that same turn, then Pact of Negation or Force of Will would be good ways to protect the combo when it begins to go off. That is actual free mana.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Because firstly they should be using removal on Prime Speaker Vannifar as you start chaining in the first place. So most of the time if you're Podding into it, opponents probably don't have creature removal anyway.
I was essentially talking hypothetically when you might combo as early as possible with only 3 land in play, and you literally have to tap out for the Deadeye Navigator activation. But again your opponents would have to be super genius worthy to have the patience to wait until you specifically had gotten to that point, and not have been tempted to use their creature removal on Prime Speaker Vannifar.
For the cEDH deck their is a Flash + Protean Hulk combo you can do with two lands in play, so it is possible to get caught there with tapping out for the activation's, say on Turn 2.
The only other probably realistic scenario of the Deadeye Navigator getting removed with a Swords to Plowshares, etc, is if you hard cast it during the game, tapping out for the activation. Deadeye Navigator is a key unique card to many of the combos, so if you have it in your hand , then it is something that you'd have to deploy to get those infinite's going.
Only the cards that can put back into library can help you out with trying to avoid hard casting it in that case.
So you're right it's not going to come up that much (if ever).
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Something interesting I just thought of, if you have DEN stuck in Hand and not enough Mana to hardcast it, if you had Flash in Hand (maybe even using Spellseeker to tutor it up,) you could cheat it out and then flicker either it (or a Drake/Faerie, if they're out, first to get some extra mana) in response. ;P
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
She has the similar feel of Captain Sisay Paradox Engine and Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, which are both Tier 1.
I personally don't think she will be banned, for the same reasons she is similar to Captain Sisay and Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, and they remained unbanned.
The RC remain very unwilling to ban legendary creatures in general.
If you look at what is banned, most of them are "oppressive" in nature and often have passive abilities;
Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, Braids, Cabal Minion, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
The exception to this rule is Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, but at two mana, he just proved to provide too much mana consistently with giving you access to 6 mana Turn 3 by just playing Forests and him.
But otherwise you have Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, Braids, Cabal Minion, which have passive abilities and they all have in common is that they prevent opponents from doing things, which the RC (and everybody else) doesn't like.
Prime Speaker Vannifar along with Zur the Enchanter, Arcum Dagsson, Captain Sisay, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Brago, King Eternal, with others as well, have activated or triggered abilities that require them to remain in play for a turn before you get any benefits, and really this is the key reason why she probably won't get banned.
But I have to admit, she does provide the most avenues to win out of all of them by getting to untap for your turn with her in play, but there are stipulations. If you review my cEDH section, you can see that you still need support cards, and you need to have things line up a bit.
But she is a commander that demands being disrupted, but in this respect the more elements you can disrupt against her, the more restrictive the setups become and thus harder.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
EDIT:
I just recently updated the chain. If you do check it out, please make sure you're seeing the 38-step version.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
But since both require not just one, but two, creatures in play.. it's not that hard to stop. We'll have to see.
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
Minamo, School at Water's Edge/Wirewood Lodge/Crop Rotation combo line
This method requires at least 4 lands and GGGU to combo;
1.) Sacrifice 2 Drop creature into -> Spellseeker getting Crop Rotation.
2.) Cast Crop Rotation for G sacrificing a land and getting Minamo, School at Water's Edge.
3.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Minamo, School at Water's Edge for U.
4.) Sacrifice Spellseeker into -> Archaeomancer returning Crop Rotation.
5.) Cast Crop Rotation for G sacrificing a land and getting Wirewood Lodge.
6.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Wirewood Lodge for G.
7.) Sacrifice Archaeomancer into -> Peregrine Drake to untap your lands.
8.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Minamo, School at Water's Edge for U.
9.) Sacrifice Peregrine Drake into -> Woodland Bellower searching for Bounding Krasis to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
10.) Sacrifice Woodland Bellower into -> Protean Hulk.
11.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Wirewood Lodge for G.
12.) Sacrifice Protean Hulk into .. {whatever line best suites}.
So it's worth the slot, and also represents another way to get a mana creature, with Dryad Arbor, Treetop Village, Lumbering Falls, or even Khalni Garden for the token to start chains.
Plus it can get Hall of the Bandit Lord or Cavern of Souls setting you up nicely. Both these can allow you to win under the opponents initial radar.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Just in case there have been previous readers of this thread, I've now pretty much completed the cEDH section, with a deck that I've been tinkering with even up to the last minute. So if you're interested it's a pretty lengthy read, but summarizes a lot of elements that you might want to think about approaching your own builds.
I spent a lot of time on it, basically obsessed, so happy to say that it's much more complete in nature than when I first started the section.
I've been making minor changes to the cEDH deck list, but I feel that it's in a pretty well tuned state for the approach I have now.
Would love feedback, further ideas, and any potential sequencing that can short-cut number of creatures, mana needed, etc.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
You're actually running Lumbering Falls in the Deck [now]? o_0 I mean, it's one of my favorite Lands, but it is kind of slow and costly to activate.. But I guess if you already had Vannifar in play, you don't really need the Mana, depending on the line you choose. Hmm..
I also notice you put Survival back? I did too, and kept Ula as well. I see you went with both Chrome Mox AND Mana Vault? Hmm..
No Mana Drain? Are the colors that hard to pull off? I wouldn't think so, what with it being a 2Color Deck.. And it can ramp you into an earlier Vannifar, so is it really worth cutting?I see, there's no point ramping into Vannifar, when that risks not having the protection to STICK Vannifar.. You've got a point.And yeah, I probably will have to cut the Winter Orb as well to make room to put Crop Rotation back in.
One thing I noticed in your cEDH write-up, is you mention that the only ways to feasibly play Revoker or Spellskite is if you naturally draw them, but with Survival [back] in the deck, you could tutor them up that way. I think they might still be worth an include (Revoker at least, since it can stop some enemy Commanders.)
Another thing, is that you mention that the reason you're not running Ula in your cEDH list is because there is more redundancy in the list so it's not necessary, but literally a paragraph above you mention that there ISN'T redundancy [for certain chains]... 'xD
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
Yeah having access to Black in Sultai opens up a whole slew of potential interactions with her in a 99. I'll post little Prime Speaker Vannifar interactions I might think of with Black creatures in your primer when they come to me.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Yeah I put back in Survival, it's just got too many things it can do for the deck. You can use it to search for Protean Hulk and just Prime Speaker Vannifar into Spellseeker for Flash.
You can discard larger creatures for potentially setting them up with Volrath's Shapeshifter or Body Double. You can use it to get a mana creature if necessary (which can be super important).
Being able to search for Fatestitcher and then discarding it gives you both an untap source and another creature to sacrifice at 4cmc, which is super powerful in this deck.
The thing is that Survival is only one card in the deck however, so Revoker and Spellskite still really can't be reliable drawn most games. Plus I can't use Green Sun's Zenith on them.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
It requires Vannifar and either an equipped Thornbite Staff or Intruder Alarm to keep untapping her.
Say we start at 4 CMC, but the loop can be begun at any from 2CMC-Protean Hulk.
1)Sac 4 CMC, fetch any 5 CMC.
2)Sac 5 CMC, fetch Scuttling Doom Engine.
3)Sac Scuttling Doom Engine (dealing 6 to an opponent), fetch Protean Hulk.
4)Sac Protean Hulk, fetch any 8 drop (if wanted). Use Protean Hulk's ability to fetch Nantuko Tracer only. Put one card on bottom of library.
5)Sac Nantuko Tracer, fetch Loaming Shaman. Put at least Scuttling Doom Engine, Protean Hulk, and Nantuko Tracer back into the deck.
6)Sac Loaming Shaman, fetch Pierce Strider (having an opponent losing 3 life).
7)Sac Pierce Strider, fetch any 5 CMC.
8)Sac 5 CMC, fetch Scuttling Doom Engine.
9)Sac Scuttling Doom Engine, fetch Protean Hulk.
10)Sac Protean Hulk, fetch nothing. Use Hulk's ability to fetch Nantuko Tracer only. Put Loaming Shaman on the bottom of your library.
11)Sac Nantuko Tracer to fetch Loaming Shaman. Put in everything fetched 2,4-7 CMC back into the deck.
12)Repeat to kill opponents.
The Tracer and Shaman are good for putting combo pieces in graveyard back into your deck should they somehow end up there. Since 5 CMC is open, you can get any utility creature desired at the time. Hulk is an auto include in the deck obviously. The Doom Engine is just your source of damage while the Strider gets around no damage clauses like Glacial Chasm.
What do you think? Just thought I'd put this out there for anyone else who wants to try it out instead of another combo.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Omnath, Locus of Mana
Rhys the Exiled (Elves)
Progenitus (Planeswalkers)
Mizzix of the Izmagnus (Time Walks)
Mayael the Anima
Sliver Overlord
Kaalia the Vast
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Maren of Clan Nel Toth (to replace Rhys as a general)
Roon of the Hidden Realm
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I did indeed test this out on Magic Online and the Protean Hulk does go to the graveyard before the Flash, unfortunately.
So instead gone for the Ezuri, Claw of Progress + Sage of Hours + 4 Zero Drop creatures as the Protean Hulk package. That's fine, the creatures are not quite as synergistic.
But Walking Ballista is another potential answer for hosers like; Aven Mindcensor, Hushwing Gryff, Phyrexian Revoker, Containment Priest.
It sort of freed up a slot as well, and I really think the Misdirection can be another excellent way of having protection on the important first time you "probably" tap out to cast her.
cEDH
Added
+ Ezuri, Claw of Progress
+ Sage of Hours
+ Memnite
+ Ornithopter
+ Walking Ballista
+ Hangarback Walker
+ Palinchron
+ Misdirection
Removed
- Grand Architect
- Pili-Pala
- Volrath's Shapeshifter
- Renegade Doppelganger
- Sidisi's Faithful
- Phyrexian Dreadnought
- Biomancer's Familiar
- Cloud of Faeries
I put the Palinchron back in over the Biomancer's Familiar + Cloud of Faeries, as without having the option of doing Protean Hulk line of (Biomancer's Familiar + Cloud of Faeries + Deadeye Navigator + Coiling Oracle), I can't do the Woodland Bellower line.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
EDIT: Since you're using Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall, Ghostly Flicker could work well with one of the mentioned and Peregrine Drake / Palinchron.
Everything will - [Primer] Sheoldred, Whispering One - Bow to Phyrexia!
Turboland - Azusa, Lost but Seeking - Control
Vampires' - Edgar Markov - Bites
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow - Jumping Ninjas
Daretti, Scrap Savant - From Scrap to Treasure
Prime Speaker Zegana - Primal Surge permanentness
Krenko, Mob Boss - Angry Goblins CHARGE!
Traximundar - Flashback Forward
You almost scared me there for a second (my innovative use of Biomancer's Familiar was almost stillborn..) 'xD
Honestly, I'm tempted to run Muddle the Mixture, as a way to Tutor for either Flash or Survival (among other useful things.)
PS. Your cEDH decklist says "29" Lands, but I count 30 (I noticed since you had Flooded Grove, which I didn't. Though I probably should include somehow, since a lot of combos/chains require a bunch of a particular Color.)
PSS. You changed Lightning Greaves for Swiftfoot Boots? And I can't figure out why..
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
Heck, my Druid Deck has 27 Lands and I find I draw too many.. 'xD (If necessary, I usually Mulligan aggressively down to no more than 1 Forest, since the Deck is basically all Mana Dorks.)
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQqiznwO4FqlwXXFdWZfWj_Qflxqy8TfPF8RFwl6mtJVYaUuAvqmHNSK1Az2EluIDO8SYnhKiQkZVt_/pubhtml#