* Nephalia Smuggler can, with enough mana, set up some of these kinds of circuses (wherein you blink something that lets you tutor for Navigator repeatedly)
* Cloudstone Curio can do similar tricks if you can find an ETB creature that gets Timestream. I'm not sure there is one in UG. Bonus tutorable by Trophy mage
* Progenitor Mimic + Timestream is gg. So worth thinking about potentially getting to 6 before activating timestream, then you win. Bonus, it's a pretty damned strong card on its own in EDH.
* You can chain a lot of timestream navigators just with clones, sometimes enough to win or derp to victory with thousand year elixir
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As someone who has done a lot of derping with Timestream Navigator here are some things to consider:
* Many timestream navigator loops are extremely mana intensive. Its essential 6 mana cost is annoying
That's very true. I'm actually going to play it over Negate, because it can give me access to some cards that can help me get out of awkward draws with Survival of the Fittest, Scroll Rack, as well as give me access to haste with Swiftfoot Boots.
* Nephalia Smuggler can, with enough mana, set up some of these kinds of circuses (wherein you blink something that lets you tutor for Navigator repeatedly)
Actually this card has never been on my radar, but I know the worth of exile and straight back into play (rather than end of turn), with my Aminatou build. But the 3U seems kind of intensive at this stage.
* Cloudstone Curio can do similar tricks if you can find an ETB creature that gets Timestream. I'm not sure there is one in UG. Bonus tutorable by Trophy mage
Will have to think on this one.
* Progenitor Mimic + Timestream is gg. So worth thinking about potentially getting to 6 before activating timestream, then you win. Bonus, it's a pretty damned strong card on its own in EDH.
Hmm, the thing is that you still need to be able to mitigate summoning sickness, so it's not quite a simply as getting it into play.
But this definitely opens up doors. If we have a One Drop in addition to a Two Drop, then we can look at doing this;
The only problem is that it costs 6UUU all up for the turn, which is kind of expensive, plus you specifically need a couple of One Drops.
* You can chain a lot of timestream navigators just with clones, sometimes enough to win or derp to victory with thousand year elixir
Yeah I was actually trying to figure out a line with Bramble Sovereign, but ultimately you need a way to keep putting it into play, so ends up being mana intensive.
But I'm sure there is more efficient ways yet to be discovered, that's why I like bringing up card focuses because it might spark somebody into a really great line.
You still are limited by the number of One Drops in your deck, so still need to have a method to recycle them if you want true unlimited extra turns.
I still like putting mana creatures into play with the Hulk because it allows to pay for the first Timestream Navigator activation, but it could easily be changed to something like this after that;
The downside to this method is that your land drop is always tied up with Dryad Arbor, which isn't too bad, you should be able to do what you need to win anyway. You will be down a mana creature, even though you got an additional one at the start.
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If you think of taking infinite turns as "draw your deck and play all the cards in it, attacking whenever it's feasible' it's basically a guaranteed win for any decent deck.
Eventually you hit removal for anything stopping you and you'll have 30 lands and all your creatures on board.
If people aren't scooping to infinite turns they're just being ridiculous.
At first this seems like an unusual card to talk about considering he is already a commander that you can play as your general, rather than in your 99.
However Prime Speaker Vannifar has this ornate ability to search up any creature in your deck. So she becomes a proxy to any creature you want.
This isn't about a building an "Arcum Dagsson" deck with Prime Speaker Vannifar, but how Arcum Dagsson can be both powerful and synergistic in your 99 without too much effort, if built a certain way.
What specifically would we be wanting to search with Arcum Dagsson?
If you read my posts focused on Birthing Pod on Page 5, you'll might have noted how particular artifacts can used to create an alternative method of chaining into creatures when Prime Speaker Vannifar is not at your disposal (i.e she has been hated out).
So what other artifact creatures might one play?
Well colored mana creatures are always welcome, so even though they cost a little more than their counterparts Copper Myr and Silver Myr are fine additions.
I personally think 10 artifact creatures is around the minimum you'd play to have more of chance of drawing one, but you can always use Prime Speaker Vannifar to get one in a pinch.
Let's look at him in two different ways. One where you want to use him with Prime Speaker Vannifar in play and another where you are looking to use him as a backup plan for when Prime Speaker Vannifar is hated out.
Now you if you have a spell to cast, then you can get Paradox Engine to untap both Prime Speaker Vannifar and Arcum Dagsson, and there are going to be a lot of different things you can do with both of them.
You can use Prime Speaker Vannifar to get another artifact creature like, Myr Retriever, Junk Diver, Workshop Assistant, Scrap Trawler, then sacrifice again to Arcum Dagsson.
You'll be able to get an artifact back from graveyard via the dies trigger, and this will just give you another spell to cast to untap them with Paradox Engine.
You really want some amount of artifact mana and/or mana creatures to pay for casting spells. You should be able to setup some spicy chains.
In conclusion
If you were already thinking of some sort of more artifact centric build, then you can do a lot with Arcum Dagsson, Paradox Engine, Birthing Pod, Isochron Scepter/Dramatic Reversal in your deck, to name a few.
Support cards are needed, like playing a number of artifact creatures, but the point is that you would be playing them anyway if your build was hoping to use artifacts more.
There are a lot of combos that involve creature(s) and artifact(s), so with Prime Speaker Vannifar ability to search for creatures, and Arcum Dagsson ability to search for artifacts, you can look to combine them to get your pieces.
Let's not forget that Prime Speaker Vannifar can search for Arcum Dagsson, thus allowing you access to your artifacts.
I saw a youtube video on achieving a Turn1 win with Prime Speaker Vannifar. Granted, you'd need a godhand but it's totally viable. I think it'd be pretty cool if you could also delve into the different ways of achieving a Turn1 with Vannifar in order to give it better odds than a single hand out of the 99 cards.
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If you did that with pens and/or markers then that's really good! You definitely adapted Will you still be able to use that version in sanctioned play?
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
1.) Compact Win Condition
Trying to keep the number of cards dedicated to actually winning with Prime Speaker Vannifar at a minimum. This allows for more disruption and mana acceleration and draw in general, while keeping the actual cards you can cast to a minimum.
It's a pretty fair assessment that most times that you get to activate Prime Speaker Vannifar that you're likely to get a combo win. So it's more about "how do you get to that point?", with other decks having their own quick combos and disruption. Disruption can be in the form of many things, like removal, Stax, counterspells, on-board hate.
That's 6 cards for the combo, and if you're able to sequence it without needing anything else then it requires 4 and 3 lands in play as a minimum.
What makes it very efficient is that if you have a lot of these cards in your hand or graveyard at the time you want to combo, then it is fairly easy to navigate around it with support cards.
If you have Thousand-Year Elixir in your hand, then you can just cast it, which is even nicer if you pre cast it the turn before you play Prime Speaker Vannifar, allowing to hold up more mana to protect what you're doing.
Same with Trophy Mage in your hand, you can just cast it to get the Thousand-Year Elixir. It will probably slow you down by a turn, as you need to cast both of them, as opposed to just putting the Trophy Mage into play.
Then if either of those are in your graveyard you can just Prime Speaker Vannifar into Eternal Witness instead as your 3 converted mana cost creature.
If you have Fatestitcher in your hand then you can go for Elvish Piper. You can tap the Elvish Piper for G (with haste) and put the Fatestitcher into play.
It's basically the same but will end up costing you an extra G.
If you have Fatestitcher in your graveyard, then you will need another way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, otherwise it is a sticking point.
If you have Peregrine Drake in your hand then you can cast it, and because it untaps lands, it is one of the better pieces of the combo pieces to cast from your hand.
If you have Peregrine Drake in your graveyard then you will need another way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, otherwise it is a sticking point.
You also need some other Five Drop creature and I've seen a lot of list that don't, so this is a fail point for those builds.
If you have Deadeye Navigator in your hand, then casting it is pretty slow, and you still need 1U to activate it's ability so likely going to need a couple of turns to use it.
Your potential better option is to get Elvish Piper as your Four Drop and you can put the Deadeye Navigator into play for G. If you have enough mana you can soulbound it to Prime Speaker Vannifar which can can activate for 1U to get another activation so you can sacrifice the Elvish Piper to get Peregrine Drake. This will give you the combo.
So on top of the 4 for the Thousand-Year Elixir, you'll need 1GU as well if wanting to combo in a single turn, so 5GU.
If Body Double is in your hand then you'd have to cast it, so unlikely you'll have the mana for it in the same turn you cast Thousand-Year Elixir. So probably will have to wait a turn, and you can only cast it after you have got Peregrine Drake or Deadeye Navigator in your graveyard.
What the alternative line is to use another creature in play to sacrifice into Selvala, Heart of the Wilds instead, giving you another way to get infinite mana paired with Deadeye Navigator.
You can always use Prime Speaker Vannifar ability to sacrifice a Two Drop to get Eternal Witness to return these cards to your hand, but that normally implies another full turn, unless you have an untapper. Fatestitcher and Peregrine Drake are fine to return to your hand as they are not hard to deploy, but Body Double isn't the greatest to return to your hand either, needing to cast it is slow going.
A couple of cards that are being tested to get you out of the fail point situations are, Whirlpool Rider for when you have cards in your hand, and Nantuko Tracer for cards in your graveyard.
This obviously requires a setup and likely if you don't have a way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, you'll have to spend a turn sacrificing a One Drop to get either of these if the situation requires it. You might have drawn them so give you a possible outlet this way as well. Noxious Revival is another way of getting cards from your graveyard back into your library.
2.) Alternative Win Conditions
There is an inherit need to have some sort of alternative way of winning, as a very likely scenario is when Prime Speaker Vannifar herself has been shut out of the game. Whether that is due to removal and commander tax being too high to recast her, or hate cards shutting off her abilities.
If Prime Speaker Vannifar has been shut out you can still aim for Peregrine Drake and Deadeye Navigator to get you infinite mana. However it's still not that simple, Prime Speaker Vannifar normally allows you to search for win conditions as well. Getting infinite mana needs something to do with it. Deadeye Navigator can pair with a number of creatures, but so far the options are pretty slim in cEDH lists.
Here are some examples of removal; Gilded Drake, Stern Proctor, Manglehorn. Whirlpool Rider will allow you to keep cycling cards in your hand till you get something(s) that will allow you to go further. Spellseeker should be powerful enough to get you a winning hand. Eternal Witness should also give you more times than not a way to win by getting back all your cards from graveyard and infinitely casting them.
You can see at this stage that Deadeye Navigator is 100% required to win through all the combos.
So some alternative win conditions are trying to be tested and established.
Temur Sabertooth can be combined with a number of creatures.
If Gaea's Cradle produces at least 4 mana, then you can combine with Peregrine Drake to keep returning and casting it to get infinite mana. You will need 5 lands as well.
You can do the same with any creature that also produces enough mana to activate Temur Sabertooth and recast it, with mana left over. But you will also need to be able to give the creature haste.
You want to find a balance of having win conditions that synergies within the rest of the cards in your deck, while also still being able to play around a few hate cards that might be shutting off Prime Speaker Vannifar.
At this stage I'm going to say that there is no consensus on what is the best alternative ways to win.
How about having no Protean Hulk wins?
It's a very interesting trade off. Often the question is "What is your plan if Prime Speaker Vannifar has been locked out?".
My current answer is to aim for Flash + Protean Hulk.
But that is a lot of cards. A lot of cards for potential speed and potential mana efficiency.
Protean Hulk lines have the advantage with untap spells like Vitalize or Dramatic Reversal to be very mana efficient with mana creatures.
With the Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir you're always resigned to 4, which is fine, but obviously it would be nice with haste for Prime Speaker Vannifar, to be able to go off potentially on the turn you cast her, which you wouldn't be able to do now.
This also means that Hall of the Bandit Lord probably can't be used in a Peregrine Drake/Deadeye Navigator only build, as you're likely to incur too much damage as a result of using it as your only means of winning.
But having compact win package means that you get to play a lot of additional ways to speed up the deck, as well as have additional ways to disrupt your opponents, as well as additional ways to protect what you're doing.
So it's a very fair call to say that sure you can try to cover as many different ways to win when you get to activate Prime Speaker Vannifar, but really is the more important question is how do you make sure you get to do that?
For example let's say you are playing the most compact version of win conditions. You might find that 7/10 games once you get to use her, you end up winning the game with a combo. But 3 times you end up having to wait a turn or whatever because of cards in hand/graveyard, and you only got to win 1 of those because the extra turn didn't matter. This might be over the course of 12 games, for an 8/12 record.
Then you could have a deck that has 10/10 record for getting the win with Prime Speaker Vannifar the turn she comes into play.
But the reality is that this might be over 20 games, where opponents just win before you can cast her or remove her before you get to use her.
It might be that 2 of those games you won with being advantaged because you were able to use your haste cards to get a win under tight mana constraints, unlike the Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir line that essentially would mean waiting a turn to have mana available.
Maybe you have a record of 12/20 because you get do easier alternative win conditions as well, like Flash + Hulk.
But over the course of more games you're more likely to win more games being consistent with mana acceleration, disruption and protection. You will have some #feelsbad-not-to-combo games, but this is just the trade off.
These were made up speculative numbers, but it's about making the judgement call that you are better off to not win sometimes with awkward draws, versus the consistency of getting her into play and activating her.
3.) Creatures matter and Two Drops are perfect
One thing when you are looking to combo is that really the optimal thing is to sacrifice a Two Drop to then get Trophy Mage. Sure you can go into Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger, but the reality is that you want 3 lands in play. In what are already land light builds, hitting 5 consecutive lands isn't always a possibility. Returning a land can be optimal for playing a land for the turn, but if you had to sequence through Scryb Ranger that is going to delay you until Turn 4 to win, and then if you have to go through Quirion Ranger, then that will be Turn 5 at the earliest, unless you have some sort of way to play out extra lands like Exploration or Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
Actually having a creature to sacrifice to Prime Speaker Vannifar is no trivial matter, when you might be using your creatures in some manner.
So with this in mind any cEDH still requires a sizable threshold of creatures to be consistent at being able to start to combo chain.
For this reason having too many non-creature spells can be detrimental. Certainly I've had games where I've wanted my disruptive instants to have just been a creature.
For the same reason that Two Drops are really the best at starting a chain, some extra weight can be put on creatures that normally are considered inferior purely on ability to cost.
For example Sylvan Ranger would normally be superseded by Sakura-Tribe Elder, but there is an upside to getting a resource and being able to sacrifice to Prime Speaker Vannifar.
In conclusion
The whole point of this primer (the entire content) is just to get ALL the ideas out there. It's not for me to decide what's best.
With that said however, I'm inclined to make sure that people can read this primer and feel that they can get a fair representation of what the wider community might be doing.
It's very early days for this commander, so it should flux with potential new lines of winning, new innovations, and entirely new approaches.
What my job is to do, is to try and keep anybody who is interested in developments updated as much as my knowledge is at the current time.
That flash hulk package feels like, incredibly awkward. I wonder if you'd be better off focusing on making infinite mana and having an outlet for it, since a lot of cards that sit in those packages are critters (e.g. Kiora's Follower as you mentioned).
Without white or black flash hulk packages are just extremely fat and awkward and the idea of having like 8 dead cards you can draw feels horribad.
A lot more awkward than say, Illusionist's Bracers or Wirewood Lodge + Argothian Elder. Maybe play some additional land tutors and focus on Maze of Ith/Wirewood Lodge/Gaea's cradle/Nykthos shenanigans?
Alternatively a Tezzeret/Arcum package with Rings+Top+Monolith, or Power Artifact+Monolith+whatever outlet might work (as Arcum has a lot of synergies as you've described in previous posts).
I'm mostly a follower of CEDH for tech ideas as opposed to an avid player/expert, but that hulk package just looks wrong to me somehow.
Wow! This thread is amazing, my head hurts just from skimming it. I picked up PSV tonight, and I am going to try to string something together, for next Thursday (Commander day at my LGS).
Has anybody thought about Earthcraft? Seems like we bring all these creatures into play just to sac them, we could get un-taps from them as well.
Wow! This thread is amazing, my head hurts just from skimming it. I picked up PSV tonight, and I am going to try to string something together, for next Thursday (Commander day at my LGS).
Has anybody thought about Earthcraft? Seems like we bring all these creatures into play just to sac them, we could get un-taps from them as well.
..
I've definitely thought about Earthcraft. It allows for some flexibility for producing mana during sequencing for sure.
The neat thing is that you can even get mana off mana creatures the turn they come into play, so there is still a speed element that it can bring to a deck.
For the land ramp chain you could use it to pay U for the Tideforce Elemental each time.
You can even ramp into Avenger of Zendikar to get a boat load of creatures to produce a ton of mana.
I think it's really strong in just about any build. You could even add Squirrel Nest as an alternative win condition, and creating tokens is not the worst with starting a chain with Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Most builds are probably going to have enough non-basic lands as well to have a target land most times as well.
It's just the price tag of $58 which is going to prevent most people from finding a slot for it in their builds
I've changed the primer, cutting the whole land ramp deck, so now I'm just presenting one deck, that is more combo orientated.
I've also moved it out of a "cEDH" section, and I'm just presenting it as uniquely my own take.
There is still a much smaller section for cEDH, but felt like there was too much information, and it will be a topic that will be forever in flux, so better to just keep it to whatever is happening on the scene for a given moment in time.
I know that this whole thread packs a lot of information, daunting at times, so I'm trying to keep the primer concise, but also wanting to keep a lot of the details that have been discussed.
I will keep adding card focuses posts to the primer as well, so that anybody reading it for the first time will have a clear idea of where they can find information, rather than having to scroll through hundreds of posts.
Thanks for all the hard work you've been doing, this is a treasure trove of information for this new commander. Could you please provide a link to the Prime Speaker Vannifar discord as well?
Thanks for all the hard work you've been doing, this is a treasure trove of information for this new commander. Could you please provide a link to the Prime Speaker Vannifar discord as well?
It's been fun trying to figure her out, but I still feel like only touched the tip of the iceberg with her.
There is literally too many things to do with this commander, too many choices, too many creatures, I am crippled by the amount of choices. Let me describe my meta and maybe you can help.
1 guy playing mill, hand destruction, land destruction, etc. (anything DBag)
1 crazy critter rush guy, plays many decks same theme, smash face by turn 5, I have to wipe him every game or he mows through people.
1 Me, I play combo/control most of the time
others, mostly creature based decks,
So i have to tune this for light removal and heavy creature beats. Ideas ?
I initially misinterpreted how these worked with Prime Speaker Vannifar.
I thought that you'd need to sacrifice separate creatures for each copied activation, but this is not the case.
What happens is that you get to sacrifice a creature, and then you get to search for two creatures for the same converted mana cost.
"The animals went in two by two hurrah hurrah"
Being able to get multiple creatures from one activation is one of the most sort after attributes when using Prime Speaker Vannifar. Woodland Bellower and Protean Hulk being the go to for many sequences because of being able to do this.
But here we have a way of combining creatures to do a number of things.
Rings of Brighthearth requires spending 2 but we know now that Prime Speaker Vannifar is always just a tap away from winning, so let's dive into what you could potentially setup with either of these artifacts.
With the ability to get two creatures at the same converted mana cost, you could easily go for an untapping creature, while the other provides some sort of combo or value, protection or disruption.
With untappers, you really can setup any type of creature combination wins that you want.
In the primer, there is a section 'Creature combinations' which will help you get some ideas of possible ways to win. I'm going to present some combo lines that I could think of.
In conclusion
It's pretty obvious that the flood gates are open for multitudes of combos, with either Illusionist's Bracers or Rings of Brighthearth.
With Rings of Brighthearth you have to be realistic about how many times you can use it in a turn however, due to costing 2 each time.
If you can equip Prime Speaker Vannifar with Illusionist's Bracers, then most builds are going to be able to setup continuous chaining for some sort of combo win, or at least incredible value.
As I've shown you can easily chain into a number of different combo wins very easily.
With them, they also have infinite combos within a number of creatures that you might already being playing with your deck because they help to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, it's always going to be one of the most synergistic and powerful of the redundancy combo cards.
In this respect, they can be really great backup win conditions for when Prime Speaker Vannifar has been hated out of a game.
I can't stress how being able to get multiple creatures from a Prime Speaker Vannifar activation can really set you up. Being able to activate her multiple times in a turn is one thing, but you're only cycling through one creature normally. So being able to get more creatures into play for more chains, is really powerful.
The number of ways that you can combine creature chains is too be honest mind boggling with Prime Speaker Vannifar, so I've given some examples, but this post would only scratch the surface.
I'm keen to hear about any combinations that people can think of, and I will add them to the primer if appropriate.
So why are you not playing either of them in your deck?
For the same reason that mine and a lot of more competitive decks have setup combo chains to not need cards like Intruder Alarm, Thornbite Staff, these cards are also on the whole backup plans if things go wrong.
However in builds that are looking to get more like value or disrupt opponents, then these cards can be key for getting the continuous value that you'd want from Prime Speaker Vannifar.
* Many timestream navigator loops are extremely mana intensive. Its essential 6 mana cost is annoying
* Spellseeker for muddle the Mixture can be tossed in to a lot of lines as a bridge
* Nephalia Smuggler can, with enough mana, set up some of these kinds of circuses (wherein you blink something that lets you tutor for Navigator repeatedly)
* Cloudstone Curio can do similar tricks if you can find an ETB creature that gets Timestream. I'm not sure there is one in UG. Bonus tutorable by Trophy mage
* Progenitor Mimic + Timestream is gg. So worth thinking about potentially getting to 6 before activating timestream, then you win. Bonus, it's a pretty damned strong card on its own in EDH.
* You can chain a lot of timestream navigators just with clones, sometimes enough to win or derp to victory with thousand year elixir
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The best way to pull that off is Dryad Arbor + Ramunap Excavator. That is a combo that costs 0 each turn. You can B.Pod arbor into a 1-drop and then B.Pod that into Timestream Navigator. On the extra turn, play Dryad Arbor with Ramunap Excavator and do it all over again.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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There is now Biomancer's Familiar which can reduce the cost. I should have mentioned it as you can look to use Biomancer's Familiar + Cloud of Faeries as an alternative to Peregrine Drake/Palinchron. Meaning you could get multiple uses out of it in the right build.
That's very true. I'm actually going to play it over Negate, because it can give me access to some cards that can help me get out of awkward draws with Survival of the Fittest, Scroll Rack, as well as give me access to haste with Swiftfoot Boots.
Actually this card has never been on my radar, but I know the worth of exile and straight back into play (rather than end of turn), with my Aminatou build. But the 3U seems kind of intensive at this stage.
Will have to think on this one.
Hmm, the thing is that you still need to be able to mitigate summoning sickness, so it's not quite a simply as getting it into play.
But this definitely opens up doors. If we have a One Drop in addition to a Two Drop, then we can look at doing this;
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop creature into -> Trophy Mage getting Thousand-Year Elixir.
2.) Cast Thousand-Year Elixir for 3 and untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
3.) Sacrifice Trophy Mage into -> Fatestitcher (with haste now) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
4.) Sacrifice Fatestitcher into -> Tidewater Minion to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
5.) Sacrifice a One Drop creature into -> Timestream Navigator.
6.) Unearth Fatestitcher U to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
7.) Sacrifice Tidewater Minion into -> Progenitor Mimic copying Timestream Navigator.
8.) Active Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
The only problem is that it costs 6UUU all up for the turn, which is kind of expensive, plus you specifically need a couple of One Drops.
Yeah I was actually trying to figure out a line with Bramble Sovereign, but ultimately you need a way to keep putting it into play, so ends up being mana intensive.
For example using Temur Sabertooth to bounce the Timestream Navigator and then copy with Bramble Sovereign after casting it again, costs 5GGUUU, yuk. Even then you still need to give it haste, so probably need the Thousand-Year Elixir.
But I'm sure there is more efficient ways yet to be discovered, that's why I like bringing up card focuses because it might spark somebody into a really great line.
75% and cEDH
Added
+ Muddle the Mixture
Removed
- Negate
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I still like putting mana creatures into play with the Hulk because it allows to pay for the first Timestream Navigator activation, but it could easily be changed to something like this after that;
.
.
8.) Sacrifice Protean Hulk into ..
9.) Getting Timestream Navigator + Birds of Paradise + Arbor Elf + Elvish Mystic + Fyndhorn Elves + Dryad Arbor.
10.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
*This method allows us to get one more mana creature instead of Tukatongue Thallid.
Next turn..
11.) Sacrifice Fyndhorn Elves into -> Timestream Navigator.
12.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
13.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
14.) Sacrifice Elvish Mystic -> Scryb Ranger, return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
15.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Ramunap Excavator.
Next turn..
16.) Sacrifice Dryad Arbor into -> Quirion Ranger, return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
17.) Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Timestream Navigator.
18.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
19.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
20.) Sacrifice Bounding Krasis into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
21.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Body Double copying Trophy Mage getting Bow of Nylea.
22.) Cast Bow of Nylea for 1GG.
Next turn..
23.) Play Dryad Arbor from graveyard with Ramunap Excavator.
24.) Sacrifice Dryad Arbor into -> One Drop creature.
25.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
26.) Sacrifice One Drop creature into -> Timestream Navigator.
27.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
28.) Activate Bow of Nylea for 1G putting One Drop creature on bottom of library.
*You can just keep looping 23)-28).
The downside to this method is that your land drop is always tied up with Dryad Arbor, which isn't too bad, you should be able to do what you need to win anyway. You will be down a mana creature, even though you got an additional one at the start.
But now you can make your One Drop any creature, so for example you might choose;
Blisterpod for infinite colorless mana.
Servant of the Scale infinitely large creature(s), with at least Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Merrow Witsniper mill people as an alternate win condition.
Elvish Pioneer to partially mitigate the Dryad Arbor always taking the land drop for the turn.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
.
.
8.) Sacrifice Protean Hulk into ..
9.) Getting Timestream Navigator + Birds of Paradise + Arbor Elf + Elvish Mystic + Fyndhorn Elves + Dryad Arbor.
10.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
Next turn..
11.) Sacrifice Fyndhorn Elves into -> Timestream Navigator.
12.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
13.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
14.) Sacrifice Bounding Krasis into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
15.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Genesis.
Next turn..
16.) Sacrifice Elvish Mystic into -> Timestream Navigator.
17.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
18.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
19.) Sacrifice Genesis into .. {anything you want}.
Next turn..
20.) Return Elvish Mystic to your hand with Genesis for 2G in upkeep.
21.) Cast Elvish Mystic for G.
22.) Sacrifice Elvish Mystic into -> Timestream Navigator.
23.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
*You can loop 20)-23)
This can free up an untap with Thousand-Year Elixir eventually as well.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Eventually you hit removal for anything stopping you and you'll have 30 lands and all your creatures on board.
If people aren't scooping to infinite turns they're just being ridiculous.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Arcum Dagsson
At first this seems like an unusual card to talk about considering he is already a commander that you can play as your general, rather than in your 99.
However Prime Speaker Vannifar has this ornate ability to search up any creature in your deck. So she becomes a proxy to any creature you want.
This isn't about a building an "Arcum Dagsson" deck with Prime Speaker Vannifar, but how Arcum Dagsson can be both powerful and synergistic in your 99 without too much effort, if built a certain way.
What specifically would we be wanting to search with Arcum Dagsson?
If you read my posts focused on Birthing Pod on Page 5, you'll might have noted how particular artifacts can used to create an alternative method of chaining into creatures when Prime Speaker Vannifar is not at your disposal (i.e she has been hated out).
Birthing Pod, Paradox Engine, Isochron Scepter combined with Dramatic Reversal are all things that you can look to use to get indefinite uses out of particular cards, and are substitute combos with and sometimes without Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Wait but you need to have artifact creatures to sacrifice to him!
Well this is where your deck might diverge into more artifact themed build.
My cEDH deck already plays Memnite, Ornithopter, Walking Ballista, Hangarback Walker as a way to combo with Ezuri, Claw of Progress and Sage of Hours with Protean Hulk.
But 4 artifact creatures does not justify being able to use Arcum Dagsson in a consistent manner.
So what other artifact creatures might one play?
Well colored mana creatures are always welcome, so even though they cost a little more than their counterparts Copper Myr and Silver Myr are fine additions.
You could look at the graveyard retrieval creatures has they have inherit synergy with Prime Speaker Vannifar sacrificing creatures.
Myr Retriever, Junk Diver, Workshop Assistant, Scrap Trawler are ways of getting value in a Prime Speaker Vannifar chain. You can get back the creature that was initially sacrificed, allowing you to get multiple creatures into play.
With Paradox Engine in play, this allows sequential casting to keep untapping.
Other solid utility creatures include Phyrexian Revoker, Solemn Simulacrum.
With more colorless spells in your deck you should be able to play Blinkmoth Nexus and Inkmoth Nexus as ways to have artifacts creatures as well.
I personally think 10 artifact creatures is around the minimum you'd play to have more of chance of drawing one, but you can always use Prime Speaker Vannifar to get one in a pinch.
So how would you use Arcum Dagsson?
Well as I said he can search for combo cards that synergies within a Prime Speaker Vannifar build.
Let's look at him in two different ways. One where you want to use him with Prime Speaker Vannifar in play and another where you are looking to use him as a backup plan for when Prime Speaker Vannifar is hated out.
Arcum Dagsson With Prime Speaker Vannifar
You can chain Trophy Mage getting Thousand-Year Elixir, then untap Prime Speaker Vannifar to sacrifice Trophy Mage into Arcum Dagsson. He has haste with Thousand-Year Elixir, so any artifact creature will allow you to search something straight away.
Now you if you have a spell to cast, then you can get Paradox Engine to untap both Prime Speaker Vannifar and Arcum Dagsson, and there are going to be a lot of different things you can do with both of them.
You can use Prime Speaker Vannifar to get another artifact creature like, Myr Retriever, Junk Diver, Workshop Assistant, Scrap Trawler, then sacrifice again to Arcum Dagsson.
You'll be able to get an artifact back from graveyard via the dies trigger, and this will just give you another spell to cast to untap them with Paradox Engine.
You really want some amount of artifact mana and/or mana creatures to pay for casting spells. You should be able to setup some spicy chains.
Arcum Dagsson Without Prime Speaker Vannifar
Probably the more important aspect of Arcum Dagsson in a deck is to have a backup plan if Prime Speaker Vannifar has been hated out of a game.
You can look to setup with Paradox Engine and Birthing Pod or Isochron Scepter combined with Dramatic Reversal, as a means to duplicate what Prime Speaker Vannifar would normally do for your deck.
With Arcum Dagsson you can get both Paradox Engine and Birthing Pod into play with a couple of artifact creatures.
Here is an example of a sequence you could do;
1.) With Paradox Engine and Birthing Pod in play.
2.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Two Drop creature into -> Spellseeker getting Gitaxian Probe.
3.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
4.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Spellseeker into -> Archaeomancer returning Gitaxian Probe.
5.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
6.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Archaeomancer into -> Mnemonic Wall returning Gitaxian Probe.
7.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) Mnemonic Wall to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
8.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) into -> Greenwarden of Murasa returning Gitaxian Probe.
9.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
10.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Greenwarden of Murasa into Protean Hulk.
11.) Exile Greenwarden of Murasa from graveyard to return Gitaxian Probe.
12.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
13.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Protean Hulk into ..
This is also an example sequence of just winning with some other combo cards;
1.) Sacrifice an artifact creature with Arcum Dagsson -> Paradox Engine.
2.) Cast a spell.
3.) Sacrifice an artifact creature with Arcum Dagsson -> Citanul Flute.
4.) Citanul Flute -> Zero Drop Creature.
5.) Zero Drop Creature, Arcum Dagsson -> Mana Vault.
6.) Citanul Flute -> Myr Retriever.
7.) Citanul Flute -> Junk Diver.
8.) Chain Junk Diver, Myr Retriever for infinite mana.
9.) Citanul Flute -> Walking Ballista.
In conclusion
If you were already thinking of some sort of more artifact centric build, then you can do a lot with Arcum Dagsson, Paradox Engine, Birthing Pod, Isochron Scepter/Dramatic Reversal in your deck, to name a few.
Support cards are needed, like playing a number of artifact creatures, but the point is that you would be playing them anyway if your build was hoping to use artifacts more.
There are a lot of combos that involve creature(s) and artifact(s), so with Prime Speaker Vannifar ability to search for creatures, and Arcum Dagsson ability to search for artifacts, you can look to combine them to get your pieces.
Let's not forget that Prime Speaker Vannifar can search for Arcum Dagsson, thus allowing you access to your artifacts.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I REALLY disliked her default art, so I channeled my inner Simic and "upgraded" her.
(Transplanted the Booster Pack Art.)
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
Ah! I see! You quite literally copy/pasted her on the card! Brilliant!
Maybe they'll use her booster pack art in a future promotional product? Like a Challenger Deck or something.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
Is she in every guild kit?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I thought it might be prudent to try and update on some general goings on with trying to make a Prime Speaker Vannifar on a top tier level.
A group of us have been brainstorming on a dedicated Discord channel and I feel like it's important to clarify the general approach thus far.
I've mainly be using a couple of the users lists as base-lines;
@d3sden0va -> https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/i-cant-believe-its-not-pod-1/?cat=custom
@jeff -> https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/vannifar-copy-1/
Certainly two of the most active users on the discord channel for brewing.
1.) Compact Win Condition
Trying to keep the number of cards dedicated to actually winning with Prime Speaker Vannifar at a minimum. This allows for more disruption and mana acceleration and draw in general, while keeping the actual cards you can cast to a minimum.
It's a pretty fair assessment that most times that you get to activate Prime Speaker Vannifar that you're likely to get a combo win. So it's more about "how do you get to that point?", with other decks having their own quick combos and disruption. Disruption can be in the form of many things, like removal, Stax, counterspells, on-board hate.
So the go to line currently is Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir -> Fatestitcher -> Peregrine Drake -> Deadeye Navigator -> Fatestitcher (unearth) -> Body Double as Peregrine Drake.
That's 6 cards for the combo, and if you're able to sequence it without needing anything else then it requires 4 and 3 lands in play as a minimum.
What makes it very efficient is that if you have a lot of these cards in your hand or graveyard at the time you want to combo, then it is fairly easy to navigate around it with support cards.
If you have Thousand-Year Elixir in your hand, then you can just cast it, which is even nicer if you pre cast it the turn before you play Prime Speaker Vannifar, allowing to hold up more mana to protect what you're doing.
Same with Trophy Mage in your hand, you can just cast it to get the Thousand-Year Elixir. It will probably slow you down by a turn, as you need to cast both of them, as opposed to just putting the Trophy Mage into play.
Then if either of those are in your graveyard you can just Prime Speaker Vannifar into Eternal Witness instead as your 3 converted mana cost creature.
If you have Fatestitcher in your hand then you can go for Elvish Piper. You can tap the Elvish Piper for G (with haste) and put the Fatestitcher into play.
It's basically the same but will end up costing you an extra G.
If you have Fatestitcher in your graveyard, then you will need another way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, otherwise it is a sticking point.
If you have Peregrine Drake in your hand then you can cast it, and because it untaps lands, it is one of the better pieces of the combo pieces to cast from your hand.
If you have Peregrine Drake in your graveyard then you will need another way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, otherwise it is a sticking point.
You also need some other Five Drop creature and I've seen a lot of list that don't, so this is a fail point for those builds.
If you have Deadeye Navigator in your hand, then casting it is pretty slow, and you still need 1U to activate it's ability so likely going to need a couple of turns to use it.
Your potential better option is to get Elvish Piper as your Four Drop and you can put the Deadeye Navigator into play for G. If you have enough mana you can soulbound it to Prime Speaker Vannifar which can can activate for 1U to get another activation so you can sacrifice the Elvish Piper to get Peregrine Drake. This will give you the combo.
So on top of the 4 for the Thousand-Year Elixir, you'll need 1GU as well if wanting to combo in a single turn, so 5GU.
If Deadeye Navigator is in your graveyard then you can use Body Double to copy it. So you can use the Fatestitcher to get Peregrine Drake, and then the unearthed Fatestitcher can just get Body Double to copy the Deadeye Navigator.
If Body Double is in your hand then you'd have to cast it, so unlikely you'll have the mana for it in the same turn you cast Thousand-Year Elixir. So probably will have to wait a turn, and you can only cast it after you have got Peregrine Drake or Deadeye Navigator in your graveyard.
What the alternative line is to use another creature in play to sacrifice into Selvala, Heart of the Wilds instead, giving you another way to get infinite mana paired with Deadeye Navigator.
At this point you can see the fail points are mainly with Fatestitcher, Peregrine Drake, Body Double in your graveyard.
The only time a card in your hand is truly awkward is when you have Body Double, but you can use (hopefully) another creature in play to get Selvala, Heart of the Wilds instead.
You can always use Prime Speaker Vannifar ability to sacrifice a Two Drop to get Eternal Witness to return these cards to your hand, but that normally implies another full turn, unless you have an untapper.
Fatestitcher and Peregrine Drake are fine to return to your hand as they are not hard to deploy, but Body Double isn't the greatest to return to your hand either, needing to cast it is slow going.
A couple of cards that are being tested to get you out of the fail point situations are, Whirlpool Rider for when you have cards in your hand, and Nantuko Tracer for cards in your graveyard.
This obviously requires a setup and likely if you don't have a way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, you'll have to spend a turn sacrificing a One Drop to get either of these if the situation requires it. You might have drawn them so give you a possible outlet this way as well.
Noxious Revival is another way of getting cards from your graveyard back into your library.
You can see there is are more cards dedicated to the combo as backup plans for when cards are in graveyard or hand.
Elvish Piper, Nantuko Tracer, Whirlpool Rider.
For cards that have been exiled, Riftsweeper is being used.
As an alternative to Peregrine Drake, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds can be used with Deadeye Navigator to get infinite mana as well, as long as you have haste, so Thousand-Year Elixir or Lightning Greaves.
But you can't naturally sequence into her the same way as Peregrine Drake, because she is at the Three Drop slot, which you would be getting the Thousand-Year Elixir.
If you had Peregrine Drake in your graveyard for example, then you still need to be able to chain up to Deadeye Navigator which is a Six Drop creature.
I mentioned a lot of deck lists (cEDH) do not have an additional Five Drop in their deck.
This is it, no Protean Hulk, no Flash. No other lines of winning.
2.) Alternative Win Conditions
There is an inherit need to have some sort of alternative way of winning, as a very likely scenario is when Prime Speaker Vannifar herself has been shut out of the game. Whether that is due to removal and commander tax being too high to recast her, or hate cards shutting off her abilities.
If Prime Speaker Vannifar has been shut out you can still aim for Peregrine Drake and Deadeye Navigator to get you infinite mana. However it's still not that simple, Prime Speaker Vannifar normally allows you to search for win conditions as well. Getting infinite mana needs something to do with it.
Deadeye Navigator can pair with a number of creatures, but so far the options are pretty slim in cEDH lists.
Here are some examples of removal; Gilded Drake, Stern Proctor, Manglehorn.
Whirlpool Rider will allow you to keep cycling cards in your hand till you get something(s) that will allow you to go further.
Spellseeker should be powerful enough to get you a winning hand.
Eternal Witness should also give you more times than not a way to win by getting back all your cards from graveyard and infinitely casting them.
I've already mentioned Selvala, Heart of the Wilds as an alternative to get infinite mana. There is a high possibility that in cEDH games that Deadeye Navigator will have the highest power at 5. So you can get infinite mana and then be able to exile Deadeye Navigator, to get the card draw from Selvala, Heart of the Wilds ability.
You can see at this stage that Deadeye Navigator is 100% required to win through all the combos.
So some alternative win conditions are trying to be tested and established.
This is where nothing has really come out yet as "what is the best alternative?".
Protean Hulk into Ezuri, Claw of Progress + Sage of Hours + (at least) 4 x Zero Drop creatures.
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds can go infinite with Umbral Mantle.
Illusionist's Bracers can be equipped to Kiora's Follower or Fatestitcher to unatp themselves and another permanent, which means at the very least infinite mana, but you can also chain through Prime Speaker Vannifar as many times as you need.
Temur Sabertooth can be combined with a number of creatures.
If Gaea's Cradle produces at least 4 mana, then you can combine with Peregrine Drake to keep returning and casting it to get infinite mana. You will need 5 lands as well.
You can do the same with any creature that also produces enough mana to activate Temur Sabertooth and recast it, with mana left over. But you will also need to be able to give the creature haste.
Tooth and Nail for Peregrine Drake and Deadeye Navigator is also being tried.
You want to find a balance of having win conditions that synergies within the rest of the cards in your deck, while also still being able to play around a few hate cards that might be shutting off Prime Speaker Vannifar.
At this stage I'm going to say that there is no consensus on what is the best alternative ways to win.
How about having no Protean Hulk wins?
It's a very interesting trade off. Often the question is "What is your plan if Prime Speaker Vannifar has been locked out?".
My current answer is to aim for Flash + Protean Hulk.
But that is a lot of cards. A lot of cards for potential speed and potential mana efficiency.
Protean Hulk lines have the advantage with untap spells like Vitalize or Dramatic Reversal to be very mana efficient with mana creatures.
With the Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir you're always resigned to 4, which is fine, but obviously it would be nice with haste for Prime Speaker Vannifar, to be able to go off potentially on the turn you cast her, which you wouldn't be able to do now.
This also means that Hall of the Bandit Lord probably can't be used in a Peregrine Drake/Deadeye Navigator only build, as you're likely to incur too much damage as a result of using it as your only means of winning.
But having compact win package means that you get to play a lot of additional ways to speed up the deck, as well as have additional ways to disrupt your opponents, as well as additional ways to protect what you're doing.
So it's a very fair call to say that sure you can try to cover as many different ways to win when you get to activate Prime Speaker Vannifar, but really is the more important question is how do you make sure you get to do that?
For example let's say you are playing the most compact version of win conditions. You might find that 7/10 games once you get to use her, you end up winning the game with a combo. But 3 times you end up having to wait a turn or whatever because of cards in hand/graveyard, and you only got to win 1 of those because the extra turn didn't matter. This might be over the course of 12 games, for an 8/12 record.
Then you could have a deck that has 10/10 record for getting the win with Prime Speaker Vannifar the turn she comes into play.
But the reality is that this might be over 20 games, where opponents just win before you can cast her or remove her before you get to use her.
It might be that 2 of those games you won with being advantaged because you were able to use your haste cards to get a win under tight mana constraints, unlike the Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir line that essentially would mean waiting a turn to have mana available.
Maybe you have a record of 12/20 because you get do easier alternative win conditions as well, like Flash + Hulk.
But over the course of more games you're more likely to win more games being consistent with mana acceleration, disruption and protection. You will have some #feelsbad-not-to-combo games, but this is just the trade off.
These were made up speculative numbers, but it's about making the judgement call that you are better off to not win sometimes with awkward draws, versus the consistency of getting her into play and activating her.
3.) Creatures matter and Two Drops are perfect
One thing when you are looking to combo is that really the optimal thing is to sacrifice a Two Drop to then get Trophy Mage. Sure you can go into Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger, but the reality is that you want 3 lands in play. In what are already land light builds, hitting 5 consecutive lands isn't always a possibility. Returning a land can be optimal for playing a land for the turn, but if you had to sequence through Scryb Ranger that is going to delay you until Turn 4 to win, and then if you have to go through Quirion Ranger, then that will be Turn 5 at the earliest, unless you have some sort of way to play out extra lands like Exploration or Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
Actually having a creature to sacrifice to Prime Speaker Vannifar is no trivial matter, when you might be using your creatures in some manner.
So with this in mind any cEDH still requires a sizable threshold of creatures to be consistent at being able to start to combo chain.
For this reason having too many non-creature spells can be detrimental. Certainly I've had games where I've wanted my disruptive instants to have just been a creature.
With this in mind, some discussion on having creature disruption, even if it's short lived is perhaps better.
Spellskite, Scavenging Ooze, Phyrexian Revoker, Spiketail Hatchling, Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, Stern Proctor, Gaea's Herald.
Some One Drops as well; Caustic Caterpillar, Mausoleum Wanderer.
For the same reason that Two Drops are really the best at starting a chain, some extra weight can be put on creatures that normally are considered inferior purely on ability to cost.
For example Sylvan Ranger would normally be superseded by Sakura-Tribe Elder, but there is an upside to getting a resource and being able to sacrifice to Prime Speaker Vannifar.
In conclusion
The whole point of this primer (the entire content) is just to get ALL the ideas out there. It's not for me to decide what's best.
With that said however, I'm inclined to make sure that people can read this primer and feel that they can get a fair representation of what the wider community might be doing.
It's very early days for this commander, so it should flux with potential new lines of winning, new innovations, and entirely new approaches.
What my job is to do, is to try and keep anybody who is interested in developments updated as much as my knowledge is at the current time.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Without white or black flash hulk packages are just extremely fat and awkward and the idea of having like 8 dead cards you can draw feels horribad.
A lot more awkward than say, Illusionist's Bracers or Wirewood Lodge + Argothian Elder. Maybe play some additional land tutors and focus on Maze of Ith/Wirewood Lodge/Gaea's cradle/Nykthos shenanigans?
Alternatively a Tezzeret/Arcum package with Rings+Top+Monolith, or Power Artifact+Monolith+whatever outlet might work (as Arcum has a lot of synergies as you've described in previous posts).
I'm mostly a follower of CEDH for tech ideas as opposed to an avid player/expert, but that hulk package just looks wrong to me somehow.
Certainly interested in seeing where it goes!
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Has anybody thought about Earthcraft? Seems like we bring all these creatures into play just to sac them, we could get un-taps from them as well.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
The neat thing is that you can even get mana off mana creatures the turn they come into play, so there is still a speed element that it can bring to a deck.
For the land ramp chain you could use it to pay U for the Tideforce Elemental each time.
You can even ramp into Avenger of Zendikar to get a boat load of creatures to produce a ton of mana.
I think it's really strong in just about any build. You could even add Squirrel Nest as an alternative win condition, and creating tokens is not the worst with starting a chain with Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Most builds are probably going to have enough non-basic lands as well to have a target land most times as well.
It's just the price tag of $58 which is going to prevent most people from finding a slot for it in their builds
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I've also moved it out of a "cEDH" section, and I'm just presenting it as uniquely my own take.
There is still a much smaller section for cEDH, but felt like there was too much information, and it will be a topic that will be forever in flux, so better to just keep it to whatever is happening on the scene for a given moment in time.
I know that this whole thread packs a lot of information, daunting at times, so I'm trying to keep the primer concise, but also wanting to keep a lot of the details that have been discussed.
I will keep adding card focuses posts to the primer as well, so that anybody reading it for the first time will have a clear idea of where they can find information, rather than having to scroll through hundreds of posts.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
The Discord link is https://discord.gg/Y57Sz2
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Edit: (This one works: https://discord.gg/VqKku5m)
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
1 guy playing mill, hand destruction, land destruction, etc. (anything DBag)
1 crazy critter rush guy, plays many decks same theme, smash face by turn 5, I have to wipe him every game or he mows through people.
1 Me, I play combo/control most of the time
others, mostly creature based decks,
So i have to tune this for light removal and heavy creature beats. Ideas ?
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Illusionist's Bracers Rings of Brighthearth
I initially misinterpreted how these worked with Prime Speaker Vannifar.
I thought that you'd need to sacrifice separate creatures for each copied activation, but this is not the case.
What happens is that you get to sacrifice a creature, and then you get to search for two creatures for the same converted mana cost.
"The animals went in two by two hurrah hurrah"
Being able to get multiple creatures from one activation is one of the most sort after attributes when using Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Woodland Bellower and Protean Hulk being the go to for many sequences because of being able to do this.
But here we have a way of combining creatures to do a number of things.
Rings of Brighthearth requires spending 2 but we know now that Prime Speaker Vannifar is always just a tap away from winning, so let's dive into what you could potentially setup with either of these artifacts.
With the ability to get two creatures at the same converted mana cost, you could easily go for an untapping creature, while the other provides some sort of combo or value, protection or disruption.
With untappers, you really can setup any type of creature combination wins that you want.
In the primer, there is a section 'Creature combinations' which will help you get some ideas of possible ways to win. I'm going to present some combo lines that I could think of.
With Illusionist's Bracers or Rings of Brighthearth in play.
1.) Sacrifice One Drop into -> Pili-Pala + Scryb Ranger to return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Grand Architect + Trophy Mage.
3.) Trophy Mage gets Thousand-Year Elixir.
4.) Tap Grand Architect and Trophy Mage for 4 using Grand Architect ability.
5.) Cast Thousand-Year Elixir for 3.
6.) Activate Grand Architect for U to make the Pili-Pala blue.
7.) You can get infinite mana.
8.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
*You can sacrifice Trophy Mage into whatever you need to win.
-OR-
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop into -> Grand Architect + Trophy Mage.
2.) Trophy Mage gets Thousand-Year Elixir.
3.) Tap Grand Architect and Trophy Mage for 4 using Grand Architect ability.
4.) Cast Thousand-Year Elixir for 3.
5.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
6.) Sacrifice Trophy Mage into -> {any Four Drop you want} + Fatestitcher (with haste now) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
7.) Sacrifice Fatestitcher into -> Peregrine Drake + {any Five Drop you want} to untap your lands.
8.) Unearth Fatestitcher U to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
9.) Sacrifice Peregrine Drake into -> {any Six Drop you want} + Deadeye Navigator soubound it to Prime Speaker Vannifar.
10.) Exile Prime Speaker Vannifar for 1U with soulbound ability and with Thousand-Year Elixir she can use her activated ability each time she comes into play.
11.) Sacrifice Fatestitcher into -> Body Double copying Peregrine Drake.
*This is the same as the normal Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir line except you get to pay for casting everything with Grand Architect, meaning you get to keep all your mana up for countering, etc.
Rings of Brighthearth costs 2, but that's still cheaper than 4.
With Illusionist's Bracers or Rings of Brighthearth in play.
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop into -> Laboratory Maniac + Bounding Krasis to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Bounding Krasis into -> {any Four Drop you want} + Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Leveler + Azami, Lady of Scrolls.
4.) Tap Azami, Lady of Scrolls to draw a card.
*Here is an example where if you had Rings of Brighthearth, then you'd only need to activate it twice for the Three Drop and the Five Drop.
With Illusionist's Bracers or Rings of Brighthearth in play.
1.) Sacrifice One Drop into -> Scryb Ranger + Etherium Sculptor return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Trinket Mage + Bounding Krasis to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Trinket Mage get Sensei's Divining Top.
4.) Sacrifice Bounding Krasis into -> {any Four Drop you want} + Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
5.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Magus of the Future + {any Five Drop you want}.
*Here is an example where if you had Rings of Brighthearth, then you'd only need to activate it twice for the Two Drop and the Three Drop.
With Illusionist's Bracers or Rings of Brighthearth in play.
1.) Sacrifice One Drop into -> Sage of Hours + Scryb Ranger to return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> {any Three Drop you want} + Bounding Krasis to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Sacrifice Bounding Krasis into -> Ezuri, Claw of Progress + Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
4.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Deranged Hermit + {any Five Drop you want}.
*Here is an example where if you had Rings of Brighthearth, then you'd only need to activate it twice for the Two Drop and the Four Drop.
These are just a few examples, there will be countless numbers of Simic combos you will be able to do. Too numerous for me to think of them all.
Another element you can look to do is to copy the creature that comes into play from an activation.
Two Drop; Jwari Shapeshifter, Phantasmal Image, Renegade Doppelganger, Shapesharer, Naban, Dean of Iteration.
Three Drop; Arcane Artisan, Cryptoplasm, Mirror Image.
Four Drop; Altered Ego, Bramble Sovereign, Clone, Gigantoplasm, Phyrexian Metamorph, Sakashima the Impostor, Sakashima's Student, Stunt Double, Unstable Shapeshifter, Vizier of Many Faces.
Five Drop; Body Double, Mercurial Pretender, Vesuvan Doppelganger, Vesuvan Shapeshifter, Quicksilver Elemental.
Six Drop; Progenitor Mimic.
Seven Drop; Quicksilver Gargantuan.
You can double up on creatures in a manner like I posted with Naban, Dean of Iteration.
You could double up on the triggers of the 'Mages' by using Mirror Image.
For example Trinket Mage copied by Mirror Image can get two artifacts like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.
Trophy Mage can get Basalt Monolith and Rings of Brighthearth for example if using Illusionist's Bracers to get infinite colorless mana.
You could even sacrifice a One Drop creature into -> Naban, Dean of Iteration + Scryb Ranger to then get three triggers off your Wizards.
Spellseeker + Mirror Image can get Flash + Summoner's Pact for Protean Hulk.
Combine that with Naban, Dean of Iteration and get yourself a Pact of Negation for good measure as well.
You could get Spellseeker and Fierce Empath as Three Drops, getting Flash and Protean Hulk.
They are combo cards themselves
Illusionist's Bracers and Rings of Brighthearth are in themselves used for a lot of infinite combos.
If you equip a creature that can untap creatures like, Kiora's Follower, Aphetto Alchemist, Seeker of Skybreak, Vizier of Tumbling Sands, Fatestitcher, Tidewater Minion, then you can untap Prime Speaker Vannifar and the creature itself.
Meaning that you can get unlimited uses out of Prime Speaker Vannifar.
If you use the ones that can untap any permanent with Kiora's Follower or Fatestitcher, then you can also get infinite mana.
Aphetto Alchemist can be used with artifacts to get infinite mana, and the creature only ones can be used with mana producing creatures for infinite as well.
Because Rings of Brighthearth cost 2 you'll need sources that produce 3 or more to get a similar effect. So you can pair it up with Basalt Monolith for infinite colorless.
Artifacts like Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo, Gilded Lotus, Coveted Jewel, can be used with Kiora's Follower, Aphetto Alchemist, Vizier of Tumbling Sands, Fatestitcher, Tidewater Minion to get infinite mana as they all tap for 3 or more.
You could do a similar thing if you can get a creature to tap for 3 or more, so potentially things like Priest of Titania, Elvish Archdruid, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix, Wirewood Channeler, Karametra's Acolyte, etc. You can then use the creature untappers for infinite mana as well.
In conclusion
It's pretty obvious that the flood gates are open for multitudes of combos, with either Illusionist's Bracers or Rings of Brighthearth.
With Rings of Brighthearth you have to be realistic about how many times you can use it in a turn however, due to costing 2 each time.
If you can equip Prime Speaker Vannifar with Illusionist's Bracers, then most builds are going to be able to setup continuous chaining for some sort of combo win, or at least incredible value.
As I've shown you can easily chain into a number of different combo wins very easily.
With them, they also have infinite combos within a number of creatures that you might already being playing with your deck because they help to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, it's always going to be one of the most synergistic and powerful of the redundancy combo cards.
In this respect, they can be really great backup win conditions for when Prime Speaker Vannifar has been hated out of a game.
I can't stress how being able to get multiple creatures from a Prime Speaker Vannifar activation can really set you up. Being able to activate her multiple times in a turn is one thing, but you're only cycling through one creature normally. So being able to get more creatures into play for more chains, is really powerful.
Trophy Mage can search for Rings of Brighthearth, and Deadeye Quartermaster can search for Illusionist's Bracers.
Spellseeker can also get Muddle the Mixture to transmute for Illusionist's Bracers.
The number of ways that you can combine creature chains is too be honest mind boggling with Prime Speaker Vannifar, so I've given some examples, but this post would only scratch the surface.
I'm keen to hear about any combinations that people can think of, and I will add them to the primer if appropriate.
So why are you not playing either of them in your deck?
For the same reason that mine and a lot of more competitive decks have setup combo chains to not need cards like Intruder Alarm, Thornbite Staff, these cards are also on the whole backup plans if things go wrong.
However in builds that are looking to get more like value or disrupt opponents, then these cards can be key for getting the continuous value that you'd want from Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith