I've created another couple of potential creature chains. They are not very mana efficient, but it's important to get them all into the thread so that other people can think of more efficient lines using similar cards/sequences;
All up you'll need 1UGGGG for this one, plus two Forests. The advantage is that it is actually technically cheaper by one mana than the Woodland Bellower/Vitalize line when you don't have a mana creature.
So if you literally have six mana available and just a Two Drop creature you go do this. It's not as efficient as the Greenwarden of Murasa/Vitalize line which only cost GGGG so realistically you wouldn't do this unless you wanted to configure your deck a particular way.
Another disadvantage, is that if you get disrupted, and have to pass without winning, then you have 2 x Summoner's Pact to pay for next turn.
In this respect, if you were wanting to use Ezuri, Claw of Progress + Sage of Hours as your Protean Hulk win condition, then you'll need to pay for the two Summoner's Pact.
All up you'll need 2UGGGG for this one, plus four Forests. What you can do however is hold onto the Flash + Protean Hulk if you don't have the mana available, so if you only have 1GGGG then you can wait for a window to cast them.
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Whew, that's a ton of content since I last checked in! Good to see that the discussions are still flowing.
darrenhabib, I wonder if there's a pure Control variant that could exist for Vannifar. Like, perhaps some 2 creature combo that you can win the game with that allows you to play value creatures and simply Vannifar them away for the Combo creatures? For example, Playing a bunch of 1 and 2 CMC mana dorks could faciliate Vannifar being able to easily assemble the Architect/Pili-Pala combo during end-step. Sac the first creature at the player's EOT immediately before yours, untap, and upkeep get the other piece into play and proceed to win. I don't mean to detract for the idea of the Pod chains that you've currently researched and explained, but I think the idea has some merit.
There is probably an artifact version of this deck that only ever wants to pod into Laboratory Maniac after putting something like Mirror of Fate into play.
That deck would be a lot different a construction obviously and play a lot more control elements but I could see it.
You could probably engineer a very dumb chain that ends up with Laboratory Maniac and Leveler in play if someone wanted to be very silly.
This is great obviously, but there is no easy way to get Naban, Dean of Iteration into play and be able to chain into Spellseeker in a single turn.
It might be the sort of thing you can do if you have naturally drawn Naban, Dean of Iteration, so you can just play him out and then use you first other Two Drop creature into Spellseeker. Otherwise you're looking at complicated lines.
You'll need 2UGGGG, plus four Forests. Which ultimately is not very appealing if you're looking to specifically sequence into them off a single creature.
But you can see if you have an untap source naturally then it can be by far the most tempting way to get a lot of value and perhaps insurance along the way.
You can sacrifice a One Drop creature into Naban, Dean of Iteration and then untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Now you can do the same sequence you'd normally do for the Protean Hulk/Vitalize line, but you're going to get more triggers.
For example Spellseeker can get Vitalize and Brainstorm.
This allows you to put back any creatures from your hand that you might be wanting to put into play off Prime Speaker Vannifar. Archaeomancer can get back the Vitalize and Brainstorm. Scrivener will allow you to do the same again, giving you a way to mold your hand (and library) to better disrupt opponents if they decided to get cleaver.
In conclusion
Although it's unlikely that you'll specifically try to sequence into Naban, Dean of Iteration with limited resources, if you have an untapper already and a spare creature to chain, then it's a very tempting creature to get first.
If you naturally draw it and play it, then it can set you up very easily for a Flash + Protean Hulk.
If you did play Naban, Dean of Iteration the you'd just want to play a few more cards that you can get bonuses off.
Another card I wanted to investigate and put some focus on is..
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
The reason is that with Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger as key cards probably in any Prime Speaker Vannifar build, the ability to get multiple untaps and even gain mana off Azusa, Lost but Seeking is certainly worth a look at.
Also Exploration can be similar, but more explosive if you have it early on in the game. But because you can't use Prime Speaker Vannifar to search for it remains random to whether you draw it or not.
Now if you can get Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger and Azusa, Lost but Seeking into play at the same time, the Forest that you return can be played out each time you'd use a Ranger. So not only can you untap any creature, it might be Prime Speaker Vannifar, but it could even be a mana creature. Returning the Forest will mean that you guarantee making additional land drops for the turn, gaining extra mana from that as well.
Getting Azusa, Lost but Seeking into play with even at least one of these creatures isn't that simply however. Once again there is no simple chain with Prime Speaker Vannifar that will allow you to do it easily.
Now this is also less about cEDH play, and more about casual or competitive play where you've geared up for less about one-turn-wins and trying to setup for more battle-cruiser games.
If you can setup multiple untaps each turn, then you can look to get more value creatures, rather than combo lines.
This example is if you actually chain from a Zero Drop creature;
In subsequent turns you'll get two additional untaps and most likely two additional mana.
If your build had Paradox Engine, then you can see how excellent this sort of sequencing is with mana creatures in play, as you get to keep putting more creatures into play while also casting spells to trigger the Paradox Engine.
The problem with that, is if you're using the Ezuri package, you'd most likely lose on your next turn to the Pact trigger.. So you'd need a different Hulk package (and if you're doing the Pili-Pala line, you'd need extra Mana to start it off like you said.)
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So let's say 4 + 8 lands = 12 lands at time of Avenger of Zendikar, you should get minimum +14/+14 x 14 = 196 power worth of creatures, which is enough to kill 4 players in theory.
So yeah it's definitely a worthy win condition if you wanted to run it. The reason I don't is because most of the time you have to pass the turn before you'd get the benefits of Craterhoof Behemoth.
The problem with that, is if you're using the Ezuri package, you'd most likely lose on your next turn to the Pact trigger.. So you'd need a different Hulk package (and if you're doing the Pili-Pala line, you'd need extra Mana to start it off like you said.)
That is true, but in this instance you have Prime Speaker Vannifar in play, which opens up much more options.
If that makes sense, if you were to actually use this line then you'd want to have the appropriate Protean Hulk packages that also go with it *with Prime Speaker Vannifar at your disposal.
But you're right Ezuri + Sage, would not be want you'd be looking for, and in this respect you'd change gears on your deck potential. Sacrifice the Turn 1 or Turn 2 potential wins, for more synergistic cards.
Too be honest I'm pretty torn myself. I could see giving up;
At Five converted mana cost, is often a sticking point for Prime Speaker Vannifar builds unless you truly sequence things in particular ways.
If we are chaining into Chakram Retriever and wanting to keep it in play to get multiple uses from it, maybe every turn, then you need to have a plan.
Maybe the best thing to do is assume you have another creature in play to carry on Prime Speaker Vannifar chains if you're going to setup Chakram Retriever.
Your build is also going to want to have a number of cheap spells to cast. But at the same time it's not like you need a lot of spells to get value, casting even a couple of spells one or two mana spells is going to do a lot for you.
You can easily sequence into it from anywhere from a Zero to a Four Drop. Then you just cast a spell to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, and use other creatures to keep chains going.
Once again you might not be looking for auto-win style decks. Instead looking fun and value out of your chaining.
Whether that is land ramp creatures, or maybe more geared towards a controlling and disruptive deck.
What cheap spells and how do I better guarantee that I have them to cast?
Well if your deck doesn't have a lot of draw, then you can be a bit reliant on what you have in hand already at the stage of getting Chakram Retriever.
There are a wealth of different ways you could build your deck to accommodate this more, too many to mention them all.
But certainly if your deck was playing more of the cantrips like, Preordain, Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, to name a few.
In this respect a card like Chakram Retriever will actually serve you better than other combo cards like Thornbite Staff, Intruder Alarm, Paradox Engine, to an extent.
The reason is that you can't search for enchantments or artifacts (artifacts that are not part of the 'Mages' 0,1,3,6+).
Sure you can get more upside from the other combo cards, and you need to have cards and mana to get multiple uses out of Chakram Retriever, but if your deck is setup for it more, then I'm just highlighting how much more likely you can setup yourself up.
Plus there is the added bonus of not relying on other cards types other than 'creatures', so you can sequence into Bane of Progress for example without losing anything.
More draw and mana might be appropriate.
You can sequence for example Relentless Skaabs -> Prime Speaker Zegana to draw you at least 6 cards, giving you plenty of fuel for casting cards.
The idea is that you could alternate between chaining up generating mana for casting spells.
Here is a sample sequence, there are literally hundreds of different paths you could draw up for yourself, but this is one I came up with to demonstrate using Chakram Retriever multiple times in a turn.
If you already have a source of mana in play like Mana Vault or Krosan Restorer, then you can just look to cast spells from your hand, potentially untapping the mana source to be able to cast more spells.
It also be noted that you can sequence from a Three Drop or Four Drop into Chakram Retriever. Now the relevance of this is that if you go all the way back into the main primer, I talk about Three Drop (or higher) not being very good to sequence from at the start of your turn, as you often require cards in graveyard for Mnemonic Wall and Body Double to do anything.
So with Chakram Retriever it does give you more scope to use kind of wasted Three Drop or Four Drop that might be in play from previous turns.
Hello I am relatively new to magic and this deck/thread is awesome first off!
I am looking at the cEDH build and I understand most of the combos except the protean hulk line, without flashing him in how can you sacrifice him with Vannifar? the deck doesn't have any 8cmc creatures so would the effect of Vannifar just fizzle? or do you need an 8cmc creature to go find?
Hello I am relatively new to magic and this deck/thread is awesome first off!
I am looking at the cEDH build and I understand most of the combos except the protean hulk line, without flashing him in how can you sacrifice him with Vannifar? the deck doesn't have any 8cmc creatures so would the effect of Vannifar just fizzle? or do you need an 8cmc creature to go find?
Thanks for any response!
You still sacrifice the Protean Hulk, but you just fail to find any 8 cmc creatures.
*Note that Walking Ballista and Hangarback Walker go to the graveyard immediately but you still get the trigger of a power two or less creature coming into play.
Today's card focus is going to be on something very, very familiar..
Birthing Pod
Strangely I never mention Birthing Pod once in the entire primer, except as an inclusion in the 75% list. I guess with the reason that Prime Speaker Vannifar is at your beckoning call, Birthing Pod is "seemingly" not required.
You'll notice that that there isn't one in the cEDH deck list.
So you can see straight away that you can't do progressive chains like Prime Speaker Vannifar using the same techniques. In this respect it's no one-for-one substitute.
What is Birthing Pod role then?
Well without Prime Speaker Vannifar in play you can look to get value. But you need to have value creatures in your deck otherwise it'll be a bit wasted. In my deck configurations, so many of the creatures are geared towards untapping. But my 75% has a lot of land ramp, so I can still look to get additional lands into play while getting in theory larger better creatures each turn.
With Prime Speaker Vannifar in play, Birthing Pod in many ways represents an untapper. If you have a chink in the chain, where it's hard to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar through sequencing, then Birthing Pod can be use at that stage to get you to the next creature. I've already mentioned that Five converted mana cost creatures, often offer the least ways to untap her. So you could easily use Pod to move you along.
It also gives you flexibility during chains, that you normally couldn't do. For example normally you can't go for Fatestitcher if you don't have haste when doing chains, as you then don't have a way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar until your next turn.
But with Birthing Pod you can get Fatestitcher, as you can sacrifice it with it. This allows you to unearth it, to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar. Now you can get two Five converted mana cost creatures, so represents also getting multiple creatures.
Having a backup engine to Prime Speaker Vannifar can be important in metas where you become the archenemy. Which is fair enough, she is a very broken commander.
Well you can put in cards like Emerald Charm, Dream's Grip, Twiddle, Dramatic Reversal, Psychic Puppetry for Vitalize in some of the combo chains, as they specifically say untap permanent(s) or the like, not just creatures. You need to be careful in that it's going to be a much more mana expensive process however. You don't get any benefits of potentially being able to untap mana creatures, which will often pays for the process.
Plus Birthing Pod itself also costs mana.
So all up it'll cost you 11UUUUU and 12 life, which can be a pretty tall order (let's say impossible).
But with non-land mana sources you can look to pay for the costs. You'll need some that provide blue; Birds of Paradise, Arbor Elf, Kiora's Follower, Voyaging Satyr. There are a lot more mana creatures in Simic that can provide U, so you might alter your build to suite this potential line more. Paying for the additional 2 would best be served with Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault also in play.
Tezzeret the Seeker is interesting in that you can use it to specifically search for Birthing Pod. If you were to use Tezzeret the Seeker [+1] first so that he didn't die searching for [-4], then on subsequent turns you can use the [+1] ability to untap the Birthing Pod. But getting it to [-5] to make Birthing Pod a creature is a slow process.
Once again you're far better off with a mana creature in play to pay for the Birthing Pod as you still need to spend at least 1 each time you activate it. A mana creature or artifact mana will pay for the cost each time in conjunction with Paradox Engine.
If you have several non-land mana sources, with one providing U, then something like Brainstorm would be more appealing than Gitaxian Probe as you can insure that you can keep putting creatures you want to search up back in your library. With Gitaxian Probe you'll be drawing 5 cards, so you might end up drawing a key creature.
Note that Isochron Scepter with Dramatic Reversal exiled can be used in similar ways. This isn't about casting cards however, if you can get at least 2 from non-land sources then you can keep reusing it, and so with Birthing Pod you'd need at least 3 to pay for the Pod activation as well.
Another alternative method is to actually use an extra turn card that doesn't exile itself, like Time Warp, Capture of Jingzhou, Temporal Manipulation, Walk the Aeons, Time Stretch, in conjunction with graveyard retrieval cards.
The biggest problem with this is that there are not many creatures that actually allow you to search for these cards in Simic.
This is pretty appealing as you can easily pay for costs and you get to draw a card for your additional turns, play another land, etc..I don't think I need to explain the usefulness of extra turns
Note that this line can also be done with Prime Speaker Vannifar, so having access to at least one extra turn cards seems pretty nice once you have 3UU to cast it, which on average will be the turn after you cast Prime Speaker Vannifar anyway.
Being able to Birthing Pod into Phyrexian Metamorph or Clever Impersonator to then make another copy of Birthing Pod means that you can use the new version straight away. So if you have other creatures to chain into then this is a very tempting idea to set yourself up for following turns having multiple activation's.
These are just solid options for Four Drop creatures with Prime Speaker Vannifar for value as well, depending on what is on the board already.
Mirage Mirror is also a solid all-star in commander, often doing things in games that you wouldn't expect. It can be extremely hard to remove as you can turn it into a land, often negating sorcery removal effects that would destroy it.
You can copy the Birthing Pod to get an additional use. Mirage Mirror can copy Wirewood Lodge to get another untap out of Prime Speaker Vannifar.
In conclusion
Let's get honest with ourselves, the weak part of any Prime Speaker Vannifar build that relies on her heavily, is herself. If she is dealt with constantly your deck can end up doing a lot of nothing.
Although straight up Birthing Pod is no substitute for Prime Speaker Vannifar, it does represent at the very least an on-board "untapper" for Prime Speaker Vannifar during more awkward sequences, and offers very powerful shortcuts if you use it in conjunction with Fatestitcher.
Also there are a lot of sequences that allow you to chain up into Seven converted mana creatures, but nothing that naturally allows you to sacrifice that Seven Drop. Protean Hulk being an example that you have to do a lot of Rube Goldberg machinery to be able to do that. With Birthing Pod you can use it to sacrifice your Seven Drop easily as well.
In decks that have a lot more value creatures, you can use it purely to get well..value.
If you have cards that can get more activation's out of it, then you can look to use it as an alternative to Prime Speaker Vannifar when you're used to her being the must remove target during games, which should happen often if your play group is smart. Setting up with Kiora's Follower and Fatestitcher with Birthing Pod is the equivalent of Prime Speaker Vannifar.
One thing is that Kiora's Follower and Fatestitcher will have summoning sickness normally, so you'd be looking to Pod into them and wait a turn before you can get your chains going.
Also that means that you can't sequence from creatures that are 2 converted mana cost lower than them, without waiting another subsequent turn, so two turns.
Trying to use Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger, Bounding Krasis, Breaching Hippocamp, won't work if they have summoning sickness, so in this respect you need to wait until they are able to untap.
So unless you actually have a One Drop creature to put Kiora's Follower into play, or a Three Drop creature to put Fatestitcher into play, then you'd have to wait two full turns sequencing a Zero Drop or Two Drop creature to get either of them into play.
Once again depending on your builds, cards like Intruder Alarm or Thornbite Staff only really work when Prime Speaker Vannifar is active and ready. Which is basically just a backup plan, and certainly a win-more in most instances.
You're probably better off having a backup plan to not having Prime Speaker Vannifar, then you're to not having access to certain creatures in your library.
After going more in depth with cards, I'm able to formulate better backup plans, so that the deck has further "outs" if Prime Speaker Vannifar is heavily removed. Once she gets up to a 8 mana to cast her, then you can spend a lot of time twiddling your thumbs potentially.
For that reason that the decks are so setup to chain up (and multiply into additional creatures), rather than value, having the back cards like Intruder Alarm and Thornbite Staff are less relevant for my builds. Now not to say that in builds that are purely looking to be value creatures, that they will be necessary all-stars. But just by the combo nature of my builds they literally are purely backup plans for when you don't have particular creatures at your disposal.
And as I've made it clear the weak point of the deck are more centered around having Prime Speaker Vannifar active.
So I feel it's better to have redundancy in the form of alternatives to Prime Speaker Vannifar instead.
The reason I went with Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal over Paradox Engine, is that you have access to a bunch of your 2 or less instants and sorcery with Spellseeker. Often the problem with Isochron Scepter is that it sits in your hand until you get a card to exile with it.
But using Prime Speaker Vannifar to get Spellseeker means that you have a suite of cards to get, not at the very least Dramatic Reversal.
This also represents an alternative method for getting infinite mana. Having some mana creature(s) and/or artifact mana will do this.
Also Dramatic Reversal can be used with the Birthing Pod line I showed, if you have the mana sources to support it. Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal will allow unlimited Prime Speaker Vannifar activation's, so is still a backup plan if needed as well. Even without mana sources you can untap Prime Speaker Vannifar for 2, so can get multiple activation's each turn.
Although Wood Elves and Solemn Simulacrum are normally straight up better than the counterpart "dies" land ramp creatures, the way that the deck is setup to sequence just meant that they end up being additional creatures for ramp, and I think ramping a chain once is more than enough. Skullwinder is probably a little risky with an opponent being able to return a card, and we are giving the deck alternatives to win or sequence with now anyway, so redundancy is becoming a little less important.
I'll talk about copying creatures in future posts, so the Clever Impersonator is just a solid value card, but can be used to make an additional copy of Birthing Pod if necessary, among other uses..
Play any non-legendary Simic creature as your "Commander" with Prime Speaker Vannifar
Prime Speaker Vannifar has this ornate ability to search for any creature in your deck, and be able to chain into it from any converted mana cost creature if you structure the deck a certain way.
So although she cost four mana, you can easily use her to play out much higher costing creatures, and indeed she gives you access to non-legendary creatures and legendary creatures in an extremely efficient manner.
If you've had your eye on a particular creature in Simic that you've wanted to build around, but because they were non-legendary couldn't focus on it too much, well now you can.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary has been the closest to being able to do this sort of thing for you in the past. But the difference between needing to cast it or just putting into play is where the real difference is. Momir also requires multi colored creatures least you need a way to draw the creatures as well. Too slow is the answer to really have used him truly effectively in a manner where you can fully concentrate on a particular creature in your deck as the central part of your strategy.
So in this respect, if you wanted to focus on a particular creature or even set of creatures for your deck, Prime Speaker Vannifar can truly act as a proxy for builds that you've imagined or now yet to imagine.
Now some of you will still be confused at what I'm trying to portray. I don't just mean you have a better chance at said creatures because they are good in your deck, I mean you can really build around a particular creature(s).
Maybe you really want to push Cold-Eyed Selkie as a key card in your deck. So making sure you have cards that give your opponents islands will be good. Then you're happy to play pump spells, as you get rewarded. A Giant Growth becomes an Ancestral Recall, just as Richard Garfield intended.
If you can see what I'm getting at, normally you can't put too many cards that would be focused on non-commander creatures, as you rely on drawing them in your 99, so is too inconsistent to be able to build around. But now you have a way to follow your desires more on focused non-legendary creature builds.
Another example is more like a suite of creatures with "top of library" playing creatures;
Now we can also use Prime Speaker Vannifar to get back any of the card(s) in the face of removal.
You can sequence into Eternal Witness, etc. Or in this instance you might want to put all your creatures back into your library.
With Loaming Shaman can look to put them back into your library so that you can sequence back into them.
It's all going to come down to if you have other untappers for Prime Speaker Vannifar in order for getting them back straight away or needing to use a graveyard retrieval/shuffle back into library sequence first.
Now there are stipulations. How much converted mana cost the creature is matters. The higher the converted mana cost, the more cards you need in the deck to sequence up into. Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger, Bounding Krasis, Fatestitcher, Tidewater Minion, Great Oak Guardian, Patron of the Orochi, are some examples at each converted mana cost.
You can see that there is no creature that can untap Prime Speaker Vannifar at Seven converted mana cost. So although you can sequence into a Seven costing creature, without another way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, you can't then go into an Eight Drop creature. The same with Nine all the way up. In this respect Seven Drop creatures are the limit if you didn't want to have to wait another turn without another unatpper.
Let's say your deck is focused on Sages of the Anima turning Brainstorm into looking at the top 9 cards of your library. Each cantrip digging you super far into your deck.
But this means taking up more slots in your deck for redundancy.
So an alternative method is that you can use Loaming Shaman to shuffle your previous chaining creatures back into your library.
The disadvantage with this is that unless you have a way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, you'll have to wait another turn to get Sages of the Anima back into play.
So the trade off is how many cards you slot in for Prime Speaker Vannifar redundancy versus waiting a turn.
If you are looking at a higher converted mana creature, for example Scourge of Fleets, then now you are looking at quite a few creatures to chain up into it. Building redundancy just to chain into it, starts becoming a lot of slots, that otherwise you might want to dedicate to the theme of your deck.
So in this respect, I feel like the higher the converted mana cost, the more likely it is you'll play Loaming Shaman as your means of recycling your chaining creatures.
If your focus creature dies, then it's easy enough to just get it back with say Sylvan Hierophant or Eternal Witness, to cast it from your hand. But in this respect maybe part of the appeal is that you don't normally have to cast it with Prime Speaker Vannifar powerful ability, so the preference is to shuffle your chaining sequences back into your library regardless.
It's going to come down to how much it costs to cast, versus maybe having to wait another turn(s) to get it back into play. The thing is that you can probably choose the preference depending on how the game is shaping up anyway.
Play any legendary Simic creature as your "Commander" with Prime Speaker Vannifar
Whoa, what's going on here?
Well now there is even the argument that you can play her instead of some legendary creatures, that you might ordinarily play in your command zone.
The reasons are two fold. At four mana she can be much cheaper to cast. Another reason is that she gives access to "signature creatures" for particular builds.
Let's take Experiment Kraj as our first example. At Six mana it's a potential full two turn slower to get it into play. Maybe this is the reason you've been wary about truly building a focus deck around it.
So it's possible to get it out early with Prime Speaker Vannifar as your actual commander at just four mana.
Now on subsequent turns, you can look to get your most synergistic cards for the build as well.
You can even setup Experiment Kraj to have Prime Speaker Vannifar ability.
Now what about removal?
Well where do opponents aim one-for-one removal? Kraj or Vannifar?
Rock-and-a-hard-place for opponent to decide on that, and this is where you can be advantage that if they get rid of Kraj, then Vannifar can just get Kraj back again with shenanigans.
So then they need to remove Vannifar, and then you're just left with Kraj, which is your whole aim.
When mass removal happens, then it's no different to having to cast Kraj for 8 mana normally, but with Vannifar you just need 6 mana to start setting up again.
It's a very interesting proposal for alternative ways to approach deck making in Simic from now on in my opinion.
Costing a full 3 mana less than Tishana, Voice of Thunder is certainly appealing and your ability to setup a creature base before hand with Prime Speaker Vannifar makes for far more consistent build in my opinion.
Paying for commander tax can be better mitigated. Normally if your plan is to have Prime Speaker Zegana or Tishana, Voice of Thunder go back to your commander zone for recasting, then you'll need to obviously pay more.
But with Prime Speaker Zegana ability to sacrifice, you can send these guys to your graveyard, shuffle them back in and then get them back into play at literally no mana cost if you get an engine going.
It's a different approach for sure, but has a huge upside.
But my point is that you don't have to just think about builds around non-legendary, certainly there are some cases where legendary creatures that you'd normally have in your command zone are better off in your 99 with Prime Speaker Vannifar at the helm instead.
If you're playing Prime Speaker Vannifar, why not just focus your build around her?
There will be some creative deck builders who will get exactly what I mean, and their will be some who will be confused at this idea.
I'll just leave it to you what you can take out of this post.
With Prime Speaker Vannifar ability to search for any creature, being able to search Timestream Navigator potentially every turn..well you guessed it, can get you infinite turns. So you can look for this card to be a win condition.
But there are some requirements in order to be able to do this. Firstly you need to always have a creature to sacrifice. If you are sacrificing creatures then you need to be able to produce them from somewhere.
The other thing is that you will need some way of giving the Timestream Navigator haste or be able to activate it's ability because of summoning sickness. Otherwise you'll only get an extra turn every alternative turn, which honestly isn't the worst
But for true infinite you'll need to have some way of doing all this.
The City's Blessing is another requirement, as well as spending 2UU, but these are not hard to achieve.
You are going to need to chain from a One Drop into Timestream Navigator.
How do you produce a One Drop creature every turn?
There is no easy way to keep producing an actual One Drop each turn that I have found or can think of.
Creating token creatures seems to be the only feasible way of doing this, which means that you can produce Zero costing creatures. So then you have to go Zero Drop into One Drop into Timestream Navigator.
Another way to get creatures into play that are non-Zero costing tokens, is with Bramble Sovereign. You could potential copy the One Drop creature you search for and make a copy.
If we are going Zero Drop into One Drop into Timestream Navigator, then this also means that we need an untapper. You really need some sort of on-board untapper when looking to go infinite.
Ability to continuously put cards back from graveyard into library.
You can see that even though it looks like it should be a simply combo first of all, it actually requires quite a few very specific moving parts.
There will be a ton of different ways you can set this up, but I'll give you an example sequence.
Because Thousand-Year Elixir can check-off both mitigating summoning sickness and give you an on-board untapper, I feel like this will probably be key to helping you achieve this as a win condition.
Now the reason I picked Tukatongue Thallid over Blisterpod is because I've discussed it's synergy with Vitaspore Thallid to be able to give a creature haste. So it's just better to think in terms of how your build might be able to incorporate both these.
1.) Sacrifice a Two Drop into -> Spellseeker getting Summoner's Pact.
2.) Cast Summoner's Pact for 0 getting Quirion Ranger.
3.) Cast Quirion Ranger for G and return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
4.) Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Phantasmal Image copying Spellseeker getting Nostalgic Dreams.
5.) Cast Nostalgic Dreams for GG and discarding two cards, returning Quirion Ranger and Summoner's Pact.
6.) Cast Quirion Ranger for G and return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
7.) Sacrifice Spellseeker into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
8.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Body Double copying Spellseeker getting Flash.
9.) Cast Summoner's Pact for 0 getting Protean Hulk.
10.) Cast Flash for 1U with Protean Hulk.
All up you'll need 1UGGGG for this one, plus two Forests. The advantage is that it is actually technically cheaper by one mana than the Woodland Bellower/Vitalize line when you don't have a mana creature.
So if you literally have six mana available and just a Two Drop creature you go do this. It's not as efficient as the Greenwarden of Murasa/Vitalize line which only cost GGGG so realistically you wouldn't do this unless you wanted to configure your deck a particular way.
Another disadvantage, is that if you get disrupted, and have to pass without winning, then you have 2 x Summoner's Pact to pay for next turn.
In this respect, if you were wanting to use Ezuri, Claw of Progress + Sage of Hours as your Protean Hulk win condition, then you'll need to pay for the two Summoner's Pact.
-OR-
This example is if you actually chain from a Zero Drop creature;
1.) Sacrifice a Zero Drop into -> Quirion Ranger returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Scryb Ranger returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Spellseeker getting Nostalgic Dreams.
4.) Cast Nostalgic Dreams for GG and discarding two cards, returning Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger.
5.) Cast Quirion Ranger for G and return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
6.) Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Phantasmal Image copying Spellseeker getting Flash.
7.) Cast Scryb Ranger for 1G returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
8.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Fierce Empath getting Protean Hulk.
9.) Cast Flash for 1U with Protean Hulk.
All up you'll need 2UGGGG for this one, plus four Forests. What you can do however is hold onto the Flash + Protean Hulk if you don't have the mana available, so if you only have 1GGGG then you can wait for a window to cast them.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
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darrenhabib, I wonder if there's a pure Control variant that could exist for Vannifar. Like, perhaps some 2 creature combo that you can win the game with that allows you to play value creatures and simply Vannifar them away for the Combo creatures? For example, Playing a bunch of 1 and 2 CMC mana dorks could faciliate Vannifar being able to easily assemble the Architect/Pili-Pala combo during end-step. Sac the first creature at the player's EOT immediately before yours, untap, and upkeep get the other piece into play and proceed to win. I don't mean to detract for the idea of the Pod chains that you've currently researched and explained, but I think the idea has some merit.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
That deck would be a lot different a construction obviously and play a lot more control elements but I could see it.
You could probably engineer a very dumb chain that ends up with Laboratory Maniac and Leveler in play if someone wanted to be very silly.
Yup, you're definitely right. I should RTFC (Read the F**ing Card).
Love the Mirror of Fate/Leveler into [CARD}Laboratory Maniac[/CARD} idea, if only for the lulz.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Naban, Dean of Iteration
Naban, Dean of Iteration is an interesting card, especially considering how much work Spellseeker and the "Mages" Trinket Mage, Trophy Mage, Treasure Mage can give you access to key cards in your deck.
Also you can have further graveyard retrieval triggers in the form of Archaeomancer and Scrivener (instead of Mnemonic Wall).
I've actually spent hours trying to assimilate Naban, Dean of Iteration into combo lines.
If you have Naban, Dean of Iteration, then you can just go for Spellseeker, triggering twice, getting for example Flash and Summoner's Pact, allowing you to get Protean Hulk.
This is great obviously, but there is no easy way to get Naban, Dean of Iteration into play and be able to chain into Spellseeker in a single turn.
It might be the sort of thing you can do if you have naturally drawn Naban, Dean of Iteration, so you can just play him out and then use you first other Two Drop creature into Spellseeker. Otherwise you're looking at complicated lines.
This example is if you actually chain from a Zero Drop creature;
1.) Sacrifice a Zero Drop into -> Quirion Ranger returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Scryb Ranger returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Spellseeker getting Nostalgic Dreams.
4.) Cast Nostalgic Dreams for GG and discarding two cards, returning Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger.
5.) Cast Quirion Ranger for G and return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
6.) Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Naban, Dean of Iteration.
7.) Cast Scryb Ranger for 1G returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
8.) Sacrifice Spellseeker into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
9.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Body Double copying Spellseeker.
10.) With Naban, Dean of Iteration in play, Spellseeker triggers twice getting Flash and Summoner's Pact.
You'll need 2UGGGG, plus four Forests. Which ultimately is not very appealing if you're looking to specifically sequence into them off a single creature.
But you can see if you have an untap source naturally then it can be by far the most tempting way to get a lot of value and perhaps insurance along the way.
For example let's say at the start of your turn you have Prime Speaker Vannifar and an untapper like Minamo, School at Water's Edge along with say 2 x One Drop creature.
You can sacrifice a One Drop creature into Naban, Dean of Iteration and then untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Now you can do the same sequence you'd normally do for the Protean Hulk/Vitalize line, but you're going to get more triggers.
For example Spellseeker can get Vitalize and Brainstorm.
This allows you to put back any creatures from your hand that you might be wanting to put into play off Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Archaeomancer can get back the Vitalize and Brainstorm.
Scrivener will allow you to do the same again, giving you a way to mold your hand (and library) to better disrupt opponents if they decided to get cleaver.
Another method;
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop into -> Spellseeker for Summoner's Pact.
2.) Cast Summoner's Pact for 0 getting Quirion Ranger.
3.) Cast Quirion Ranger for G and return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
4.) Sacrifice Spellseeker into -> Archaeomancer returning Summoner's Pact.
5.) Cast Summoner's Pact for 0 getting Wirewood Symbiote.
6.) Cast Wirewood Symbiote for G.
7.) Return Quirion Ranger with Wirewood Symbiote to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
8.) Sacrifice Wirewood Symbiote into -> Naban, Dean of Iteration.
9.) Cast Quirion Ranger for G and return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
10.) Sacrifice Archaeomancer into -> Body Double copying Spellseeker getting Flash and Regrowth.
11.) Cast Regrowth returning Summoner's Pact.
12.) Cast Summoner's Pact for 0 getting Protean Hulk.
13.) Cast Flash for 1U with Protean Hulk.
This method also requires that you'll need 2UGGGG.
Now if you did want to play Naban, Dean of Iteration, then you should cater for some of the other "Mages" as well.
Trinket Mage can give you access to a lot of fast artifact mana; Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault. You could even look at card draw with Sensei's Divining Top and Voltaic Key.
With Trophy Mage we already have Thousand-Year Elixir. But there are a lot of combo cards at 3 cmc;
Umbral Mantle, Ashnod's Altar, Phyrexian Altar, Rings of Brighthearth, Basalt Monolith, Inspiring Statuary, to name a few.
Treasure Mage also has plenty of artifacts that you could look to abuse.
In conclusion
Although it's unlikely that you'll specifically try to sequence into Naban, Dean of Iteration with limited resources, if you have an untapper already and a spare creature to chain, then it's a very tempting creature to get first.
If you naturally draw it and play it, then it can set you up very easily for a Flash + Protean Hulk.
If you did play Naban, Dean of Iteration the you'd just want to play a few more cards that you can get bonuses off.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
The reason is that with Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger as key cards probably in any Prime Speaker Vannifar build, the ability to get multiple untaps and even gain mana off Azusa, Lost but Seeking is certainly worth a look at.
Also Exploration can be similar, but more explosive if you have it early on in the game. But because you can't use Prime Speaker Vannifar to search for it remains random to whether you draw it or not.
Now if you can get Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger and Azusa, Lost but Seeking into play at the same time, the Forest that you return can be played out each time you'd use a Ranger. So not only can you untap any creature, it might be Prime Speaker Vannifar, but it could even be a mana creature. Returning the Forest will mean that you guarantee making additional land drops for the turn, gaining extra mana from that as well.
Getting Azusa, Lost but Seeking into play with even at least one of these creatures isn't that simply however. Once again there is no simple chain with Prime Speaker Vannifar that will allow you to do it easily.
Now this is also less about cEDH play, and more about casual or competitive play where you've geared up for less about one-turn-wins and trying to setup for more battle-cruiser games.
If you can setup multiple untaps each turn, then you can look to get more value creatures, rather than combo lines.
This example is if you actually chain from a Zero Drop creature;
1.) Sacrifice a Zero Drop into -> Quirion Ranger returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Scryb Ranger returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Spellseeker getting Nostalgic Dreams.
4.) Cast Nostalgic Dreams for GG and discarding two cards, returning Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger.
5.) Cast Quirion Ranger for G and return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
6.) Sacrifice Spellseeker into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
7.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Body Double copying Spellseeker getting Green Sun's Zenith.
8.) Cast Green Sun's Zenith for 3G getting Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
9.) Play two Forest from your hand.
10.) Cast Scryb Ranger for 1G and return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
*Now you have Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger and Azusa, Lost but Seeking in play.
In subsequent turns you'll get two additional untaps and most likely two additional mana.
If your build had Paradox Engine, then you can see how excellent this sort of sequencing is with mana creatures in play, as you get to keep putting more creatures into play while also casting spells to trigger the Paradox Engine.
In conclusion
Azusa, Lost but Seeking normally wants to be in decks with a lot of card draw to get use out of the additional land drops you can make. But you can see in a Prime Speaker Vannifar deck that looks to use Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger as additional untappers, and not just as means to chain up one time only, that Azusa, Lost but Seeking is a really great card.
She also will allow you to potentially get more 'landfall' triggers if your deck has Retreat to Coralhelm or Tideforce Elemental.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
URG Riku: - (Deck List) (Retired, but should probably bring it back.. I need a more casual deck)
BGU Muldrotha: - (Deck List)
UB Yuriko: - (Deck List)
UR Zndrsplt/Okaun - (Deck List)
G Seton: - (Deck List)
RGW Uril: - (Deck List)
GU Vannifar: - (Deck List) (My main)
WUBRG Alara: - (Deck List)
UBR Tresserhorn: - (Deck List)
RW Feather: - (Deck List)
The thing is, creatures are replacing each other. So it's not like you have a huge army to abuse Craterhoof Behemoth with. But in my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck, Prime Speaker Vannifar is a sort of secret commander that will enable reaching Craterhoof Behemoth.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
But if you get infinite Eternal Witnesses into play, getting all your creatures into play aswell, I would argue you'd have that huge army.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Let' say you start on 4 lands in play at the start of your turn and Retreat to Coralhelm.
Veteran Explorer -> Primal Druid -> (Spellseeker->Crop Rotation) -> World Shaper -> Seedguide Ash -> Ulvenwald Hydra -> Avenger of Zendikar.
Then in your next turn you can go Avenger of Zendikar -> Craterhoof Behemoth.
So let's say 4 + 8 lands = 12 lands at time of Avenger of Zendikar, you should get minimum +14/+14 x 14 = 196 power worth of creatures, which is enough to kill 4 players in theory.
If you have mass haste like Concordant Crossroads, then you could also look to win in the same turn, by playing a land to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar (Retreat to Coralhelm) after Avenger of Zendikar, so that you can go straight into Craterhoof Behemoth.
So yeah it's definitely a worthy win condition if you wanted to run it. The reason I don't is because most of the time you have to pass the turn before you'd get the benefits of Craterhoof Behemoth.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
For example;
1.) Sacrifice Protean Hulk into..
2.) Body Double + Sidisi's Faithful. Sacrifice Body Double as Protean Hulk into..
3.) Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor + Grand Architect + Pili-Pala.
4.) Return a Forest with Quirion Ranger to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
5.) Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Scryb Ranger returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
6.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Trophy Mage getting Thousand-Year Elixir.
7.) Tap Trophy Mage, Grand Architect, Sidisi's Faithful to get 6.
8.) Cast Thousand-Year Elixir for 3.
9.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
10.) Sacrifice Trophy Mage into -> Fatestitcher to untap a U source.
11.) Activate Grand Architect for U to make the Pili-Pala Blue.
You can get infinite mana, drawing your deck and playing it out, etc.
If that makes sense, if you were to actually use this line then you'd want to have the appropriate Protean Hulk packages that also go with it *with Prime Speaker Vannifar at your disposal.
But you're right Ezuri + Sage, would not be want you'd be looking for, and in this respect you'd change gears on your deck potential. Sacrifice the Turn 1 or Turn 2 potential wins, for more synergistic cards.
Too be honest I'm pretty torn myself. I could see giving up;
1 Sage of Hours
1 Memnite
1 Ornithopter
1 Walking Ballista
1 Hangarback Walker
for..
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sidisi's Faithful
1 Grand Architect
1 Pili-Pala
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Naban, Dean of Iteration
You give up that potential very fast win, but the quality of cards is better in general.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Chakram Retriever
It's a card that acts as a mini Paradox Engine, but you can search it out with Prime Speaker Vannifar.
At Five converted mana cost, is often a sticking point for Prime Speaker Vannifar builds unless you truly sequence things in particular ways.
If we are chaining into Chakram Retriever and wanting to keep it in play to get multiple uses from it, maybe every turn, then you need to have a plan.
Maybe the best thing to do is assume you have another creature in play to carry on Prime Speaker Vannifar chains if you're going to setup Chakram Retriever.
Your build is also going to want to have a number of cheap spells to cast. But at the same time it's not like you need a lot of spells to get value, casting even a couple of spells one or two mana spells is going to do a lot for you.
You can easily sequence into it from anywhere from a Zero to a Four Drop. Then you just cast a spell to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, and use other creatures to keep chains going.
Once again you might not be looking for auto-win style decks. Instead looking fun and value out of your chaining.
Whether that is land ramp creatures, or maybe more geared towards a controlling and disruptive deck.
Cards like this will allow you to chain up sequences more like this;
Vendilion Clique -> Glen Elendra Archmage -> Somberwald Stag -> Bane of Progress -> Keiga, the Tide Star -> Meteor Golem -> Terastodon.
Leaving a wake of destruction behind you, if this is more your style.
What cheap spells and how do I better guarantee that I have them to cast?
Well if your deck doesn't have a lot of draw, then you can be a bit reliant on what you have in hand already at the stage of getting Chakram Retriever.
There are a wealth of different ways you could build your deck to accommodate this more, too many to mention them all.
But certainly if your deck was playing more of the cantrips like, Preordain, Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, to name a few.
In this respect a card like Chakram Retriever will actually serve you better than other combo cards like Thornbite Staff, Intruder Alarm, Paradox Engine, to an extent.
The reason is that you can't search for enchantments or artifacts (artifacts that are not part of the 'Mages' 0,1,3,6+).
However with Chakram Retriever you can put it into play off Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Sure you can get more upside from the other combo cards, and you need to have cards and mana to get multiple uses out of Chakram Retriever, but if your deck is setup for it more, then I'm just highlighting how much more likely you can setup yourself up.
Plus there is the added bonus of not relying on other cards types other than 'creatures', so you can sequence into Bane of Progress for example without losing anything.
More draw and mana might be appropriate.
You can sequence for example Relentless Skaabs -> Prime Speaker Zegana to draw you at least 6 cards, giving you plenty of fuel for casting cards.
Now remember you can actually use Chakram Retriever to untap mana sources as well if needing to cast spells.
So it might be that you play a few more tap for more mana sources like; Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Krosan Restorer, Argothian Elder, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix.
The idea is that you could alternate between chaining up generating mana for casting spells.
Here is a sample sequence, there are literally hundreds of different paths you could draw up for yourself, but this is one I came up with to demonstrate using Chakram Retriever multiple times in a turn.
1.) Sacrifice Three Drop creature into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Chakram Retriever.
3.) Cast a spell to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Chakram Retriever.
4.) Sacrifice One Drop creature into -> Scryb Ranger returning a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
5.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Spellseeker getting Gitaxian Probe.
6.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Chakram Retriever.
7.) Sacrifice Spellseeker into -> Archaeomancer returning Gitaxian Probe.
8.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Chakram Retriever.
9.) Sacrifice Archaeomancer into -> Mnemonic Wall returning Gitaxian Probe.
10.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Chakram Retriever.
11.) Sacrifice Mnemonic Wall into -> Greenwarden of Murasa returning Gitaxian Probe.
12.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Chakram Retriever.
13.) Sacrifice Greenwarden of Murasa into Protean Hulk.
14.) Exile Greenwarden of Murasa from graveyard to return Gitaxian Probe.
15.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Chakram Retriever.
16.) Sacrifice Protean Hulk into Tidespout Tyrant.
17.) Protean Hulk gets Trinket Mage, Naban, Dean of Iteration, Sylvan Safekeeper.
18.) Trinket Mage gets Mana Vault and Mana Crypt.
Now you can get infinite casting of spells with Tidespout Tyrant bouncing between Mana Vault and Mana Crypt, getting infinite colorless mana.
You will also get infinite triggers with Chakram Retriever, meaning infinite colored mana (with mana creature), as well as unlimited Prime Speaker Vannifar uses.
In conclusion
With Chakram Retriever I think is probably better in a lot of deck builds than say Thornbite Staff, Intruder Alarm, Paradox Engine, as you can get it into play with Prime Speaker Vannifar.
It is better to build slightly around it by including cheap casting cards like; Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Ponder, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, Exploration, as examples.
If you already have a source of mana in play like Mana Vault or Krosan Restorer, then you can just look to cast spells from your hand, potentially untapping the mana source to be able to cast more spells.
It also be noted that you can sequence from a Three Drop or Four Drop into Chakram Retriever. Now the relevance of this is that if you go all the way back into the main primer, I talk about Three Drop (or higher) not being very good to sequence from at the start of your turn, as you often require cards in graveyard for Mnemonic Wall and Body Double to do anything.
So with Chakram Retriever it does give you more scope to use kind of wasted Three Drop or Four Drop that might be in play from previous turns.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I am looking at the cEDH build and I understand most of the combos except the protean hulk line, without flashing him in how can you sacrifice him with Vannifar? the deck doesn't have any 8cmc creatures so would the effect of Vannifar just fizzle? or do you need an 8cmc creature to go find?
Thanks for any response!
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
But you still get 6 converted mana worth of creatures, getting;
1.) Get Ezuri, Claw of Progress + Sage of Hours + Memnite + Ornithopter + Walking Ballista + Hangarback Walker + Dryad Arbor.
2.) You get 5 experience counters for 5 (6 with Dryad Arbor) creatures entering the battlefield with power 2 or less.
3.) Get infinite turns with Sage of Hours getting 5 x +1/+1 counters from Ezuri, Claw of Progress ability.
*Note that Walking Ballista and Hangarback Walker go to the graveyard immediately but you still get the trigger of a power two or less creature coming into play.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Birthing Pod
Strangely I never mention Birthing Pod once in the entire primer, except as an inclusion in the 75% list. I guess with the reason that Prime Speaker Vannifar is at your beckoning call, Birthing Pod is "seemingly" not required.
You'll notice that that there isn't one in the cEDH deck list.
Well first up they are different in the fact that one is an artifact and the other is a creature. So if we look at our untapping cards, they are all in fact reference untapping a creature;
Thornbite Staff, Intruder Alarm, Thousand-Year Elixir, Retreat to Coralhelm, Tideforce Elemental, Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger, Bounding Krasis, Breaching Hippocamp, Vitalize, Wirewood Lodge, (Minamo, School at Water's Edge sort of).
So you can see straight away that you can't do progressive chains like Prime Speaker Vannifar using the same techniques. In this respect it's no one-for-one substitute.
What is Birthing Pod role then?
Well without Prime Speaker Vannifar in play you can look to get value. But you need to have value creatures in your deck otherwise it'll be a bit wasted. In my deck configurations, so many of the creatures are geared towards untapping. But my 75% has a lot of land ramp, so I can still look to get additional lands into play while getting in theory larger better creatures each turn.
With Prime Speaker Vannifar in play, Birthing Pod in many ways represents an untapper. If you have a chink in the chain, where it's hard to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar through sequencing, then Birthing Pod can be use at that stage to get you to the next creature. I've already mentioned that Five converted mana cost creatures, often offer the least ways to untap her. So you could easily use Pod to move you along.
It also gives you flexibility during chains, that you normally couldn't do. For example normally you can't go for Fatestitcher if you don't have haste when doing chains, as you then don't have a way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar until your next turn.
But with Birthing Pod you can get Fatestitcher, as you can sacrifice it with it. This allows you to unearth it, to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar. Now you can get two Five converted mana cost creatures, so represents also getting multiple creatures.
You could do this for example;
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop creature into -> Spellseeker getting Vitalize.
2.) Cast Vitalize G to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Sacrifice Spellseeker into -> Fatestitcher.
3.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Fatestitcher into -> Peregrine Drake.
5.) Unearth Fatestitcher for U to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
4.) Sacrifice Fatestitcher into -> Mnemonic Wall returning Vitalize.
5.) Cast Vitalize G to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
6.) Sacrifice Mnemonic Wall into -> Deadeye Navigator soulbound to Peregrine Drake.
You can see how much of a short cut this can be to get infinite mana.
What can untap Birthing Pod?
Kiora's Follower and Fatestitcher are creatures that can untap Birthing Pod.
So if you can setup either of these creatures with Birthing Pod, then you can do many of the lines that you would normally do with Prime Speaker Vannifar. Just your creature untappers will target the Kiora's Follower or Fatestitcher, so you can keep untapping the Birthing Pod itself.
It will cost t1(G/P) each time, so not quite as easy as Prime Speaker Vannifar free activation.
Having a backup engine to Prime Speaker Vannifar can be important in metas where you become the archenemy. Which is fair enough, she is a very broken commander.
Using you first Birthing Pod to get Kiora's Follower off a One Drop or Fatestitcher off a Three Drop, is a pretty reasonable plan, if you don't have access to Prime Speaker Vannifar.
What are other ways to make Birthing Pod a similar engine to Prime Speaker Vannifar?
Well you can put in cards like Emerald Charm, Dream's Grip, Twiddle, Dramatic Reversal, Psychic Puppetry for Vitalize in some of the combo chains, as they specifically say untap permanent(s) or the like, not just creatures. You need to be careful in that it's going to be a much more mana expensive process however. You don't get any benefits of potentially being able to untap mana creatures, which will often pays for the process.
Plus Birthing Pod itself also costs mana.
But for example;
1.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Two Drop creature into -> Spellseeker getting Dramatic Reversal.
2.) Cast Dramatic Reversal for 1U to untap Birthing Pod and hopefully mana creature(s) and/or artifact mana.
3.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Spellseeker into -> Archaeomancer returning Dramatic Reversal.
4.) Cast Dramatic Reversal for 1U to untap Birthing Pod and hopefully mana creature(s) and/or artifact mana.
5.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Archaeomancer into -> Mnemonic Wall returning Dramatic Reversal.
5.) Cast Dramatic Reversal for 1U to untap Birthing Pod and hopefully mana creature(s) and/or artifact mana.
7.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Mnemonic Wall into -> Greenwarden of Murasa returning Dramatic Reversal.
8.) Cast Dramatic Reversal for 1U to untap Birthing Pod and hopefully mana creature(s) and/or artifact mana.
9.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Greenwarden of Murasa into -> Protean Hulk.
10.) Exile Greenwarden of Murasa from your graveyard to return Dramatic Reversal.
11.) Cast Dramatic Reversal for 1U to untap Birthing Pod and hopefully mana creature(s) and/or artifact mana.
12.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Protean Hulk into ..
So all up it'll cost you 11UUUUU and 12 life, which can be a pretty tall order (let's say impossible).
But with non-land mana sources you can look to pay for the costs. You'll need some that provide blue; Birds of Paradise, Arbor Elf, Kiora's Follower, Voyaging Satyr. There are a lot more mana creatures in Simic that can provide U, so you might alter your build to suite this potential line more. Paying for the additional 2 would best be served with Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault also in play.
What are some other ways to make Birthing Pod another Prime Speaker Vannifar for your build?
As most of the untap cards are centered around creatures, if you can make Birthing Pod a creature, then you can use it in the same way as Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Cards that can make Birthing Pod a creature in Simic;
Karn, Silver Golem, Toymaker.
Tezzeret the Seeker, Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist, The Antiquities War, March of the Machines.
You can Birthing Pod a Four Drop into Karn, Silver Golem or a One Drop into Toymaker.
If you were to play Karn, Silver Golem then you could also look to take advantage of Vitalize or Mobilize, by turning your artifacts like Sol Ring and Mana Vault into creatures as well. You might have more artifacts as well, but they can't be Zero converted mana cost, otherwise they just die. So Simic Signet, Grim Monolith, Basalt Monolith, Thran Dynamo, Gilded Lotus, Coveted Jewel are examples of artifacts that would net you mana after a couple of uses with Karn, Silver Golem and mass untappers like Vitalize.
Tezzeret the Seeker is interesting in that you can use it to specifically search for Birthing Pod. If you were to use Tezzeret the Seeker [+1] first so that he didn't die searching for [-4], then on subsequent turns you can use the [+1] ability to untap the Birthing Pod. But getting it to [-5] to make Birthing Pod a creature is a slow process.
Paradox Engine is another card that can be used to get multiple uses..I know shock horror right!? Haha just joking it's hard to say that particular cards name without it doing something absurd.
You need to cast cards to have effect, but if you check out the focus post I did on Chakram Retriever some number of posts up from this one, you can setup sequences to keep chaining.
Paradox Engine has the advantage that it can also untap mana creature and artifact mana, giving you an easy way to keep casting spells.
But for example with Paradox Engine and Birthing Pod in play, you can simulate Prime Speaker Vannifar with particular sequences.
1.) With Paradox Engine and Birthing Pod in play.
2.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Two Drop creature into -> Spellseeker getting Gitaxian Probe.
3.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
4.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Spellseeker into -> Archaeomancer returning Gitaxian Probe.
5.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
6.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Archaeomancer into -> Mnemonic Wall returning Gitaxian Probe.
7.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) Mnemonic Wall to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
8.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) into -> Greenwarden of Murasa returning Gitaxian Probe.
9.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
10.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Greenwarden of Murasa into Protean Hulk.
11.) Exile Greenwarden of Murasa from graveyard to return Gitaxian Probe.
12.) Cast Gitaxian Probe for (U/P) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Paradox Engine.
13.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Protean Hulk into ..
Once again you're far better off with a mana creature in play to pay for the Birthing Pod as you still need to spend at least 1 each time you activate it. A mana creature or artifact mana will pay for the cost each time in conjunction with Paradox Engine.
If you have several non-land mana sources, with one providing U, then something like Brainstorm would be more appealing than Gitaxian Probe as you can insure that you can keep putting creatures you want to search up back in your library. With Gitaxian Probe you'll be drawing 5 cards, so you might end up drawing a key creature.
Note that Isochron Scepter with Dramatic Reversal exiled can be used in similar ways. This isn't about casting cards however, if you can get at least 2 from non-land sources then you can keep reusing it, and so with Birthing Pod you'd need at least 3 to pay for the Pod activation as well.
Another alternative method is to actually use an extra turn card that doesn't exile itself, like Time Warp, Capture of Jingzhou, Temporal Manipulation, Walk the Aeons, Time Stretch, in conjunction with graveyard retrieval cards.
The biggest problem with this is that there are not many creatures that actually allow you to search for these cards in Simic.
But you could do something like this;
1.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Two Drop creature into -> Spellseeker getting Mystical Tutor.
2.) Cast Mystical Tutor for Time Warp/Temporal Manipulation/etc and draw it with another card or wait a turn.
3.) Cast Time Warp to take an extra turn.
4.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Spellseeker into -> Archaeomancer returning Time Warp.
5.) Cast Time Warp to take an extra turn.
6.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Archaeomancer into -> Mnemonic Wall returning Time Warp.
7.) Cast Time Warp to take an extra turn.
8.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Mnemonic Wall into -> Greenwarden of Murasa returning Time Warp.
9.) Cast Time Warp to take an extra turn.
10.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Greenwarden of Murasa into Protean Hulk.
11.) Exile Greenwarden of Murasa from graveyard to return Time Warp.
12.) Cast Time Warp to take an extra turn.
13.) Birthing Pod for t1(G/P) Protean Hulk into ..
This is pretty appealing as you can easily pay for costs and you get to draw a card for your additional turns, play another land, etc..I don't think I need to explain the usefulness of extra turns
Note that this line can also be done with Prime Speaker Vannifar, so having access to at least one extra turn cards seems pretty nice once you have 3UU to cast it, which on average will be the turn after you cast Prime Speaker Vannifar anyway.
How else can you leverage Birthing Pod?
You have some options to copy Birthing Pod giving you further potential activation's each turn.
Phyrexian Metamorph, Clever Impersonator.
Copy Artifact, Mechanized Production, Mirage Mirror, Prototype Portal, Saheeli's Artistry, Sculpting Steel, Stolen Identity, Cogwork Assembler, Mirrorworks.
Being able to Birthing Pod into Phyrexian Metamorph or Clever Impersonator to then make another copy of Birthing Pod means that you can use the new version straight away. So if you have other creatures to chain into then this is a very tempting idea to set yourself up for following turns having multiple activation's.
These are just solid options for Four Drop creatures with Prime Speaker Vannifar for value as well, depending on what is on the board already.
Mirage Mirror is also a solid all-star in commander, often doing things in games that you wouldn't expect. It can be extremely hard to remove as you can turn it into a land, often negating sorcery removal effects that would destroy it.
You can copy the Birthing Pod to get an additional use. Mirage Mirror can copy Wirewood Lodge to get another untap out of Prime Speaker Vannifar.
Copying a creature that you'd prefer to have in play for it's utility to keep chaining up can be beneficial.
Examples of this are; Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger, Kiora's Follower, Dosan the Falling Leaf, Fatestitcher, Peregrine Drake, Deadeye Navigator, Palinchron.
For example you can chain into Peregrine Drake and Deadeye Navigator by just using any copy creature card that you might have drawn.
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop creature into -> Bounding Krasis to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar
2.) Sacrifice Bounding Krasis into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Peregrine Drake to untap 5 lands.
4.) Cast Phantasmal Image/Phyrexian Metamorph/Clever Impersonator/Mirage Mirror to copy Peregrine Drake.
5.) Sacrifice copy of Peregrine Drake into -> Deadeye Navigator soulbound to Peregrine Drake.
In conclusion
Let's get honest with ourselves, the weak part of any Prime Speaker Vannifar build that relies on her heavily, is herself. If she is dealt with constantly your deck can end up doing a lot of nothing.
Although straight up Birthing Pod is no substitute for Prime Speaker Vannifar, it does represent at the very least an on-board "untapper" for Prime Speaker Vannifar during more awkward sequences, and offers very powerful shortcuts if you use it in conjunction with Fatestitcher.
Also there are a lot of sequences that allow you to chain up into Seven converted mana creatures, but nothing that naturally allows you to sacrifice that Seven Drop. Protean Hulk being an example that you have to do a lot of Rube Goldberg machinery to be able to do that. With Birthing Pod you can use it to sacrifice your Seven Drop easily as well.
In decks that have a lot more value creatures, you can use it purely to get well..value.
If you have cards that can get more activation's out of it, then you can look to use it as an alternative to Prime Speaker Vannifar when you're used to her being the must remove target during games, which should happen often if your play group is smart.
Setting up with Kiora's Follower and Fatestitcher with Birthing Pod is the equivalent of Prime Speaker Vannifar.
One thing is that Kiora's Follower and Fatestitcher will have summoning sickness normally, so you'd be looking to Pod into them and wait a turn before you can get your chains going.
Also that means that you can't sequence from creatures that are 2 converted mana cost lower than them, without waiting another subsequent turn, so two turns.
Trying to use Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger, Bounding Krasis, Breaching Hippocamp, won't work if they have summoning sickness, so in this respect you need to wait until they are able to untap.
So unless you actually have a One Drop creature to put Kiora's Follower into play, or a Three Drop creature to put Fatestitcher into play, then you'd have to wait two full turns sequencing a Zero Drop or Two Drop creature to get either of them into play.
Once again depending on your builds, cards like Intruder Alarm or Thornbite Staff only really work when Prime Speaker Vannifar is active and ready. Which is basically just a backup plan, and certainly a win-more in most instances.
You're probably better off having a backup plan to not having Prime Speaker Vannifar, then you're to not having access to certain creatures in your library.
In this respect looking at cards like Paradox Engine, (Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal), Time Warp, as potential back up engines to fuel Birthing Pod and other things have certainly convinced me of their worth.
I will also say that future cards I'll be focusing on like Arcum Dagsson and copying creature cards like Phyrexian Metamorph and Clever Impersonator will help to build up even more of a case for cards like Birthing Pod, Paradox Engine, Karn, Silver Golem, Tezzeret the Seeker, etc for your potential builds.
I have a lot to talk about, but only so much time to spend on a card each day, so more to come
After going more in depth with cards, I'm able to formulate better backup plans, so that the deck has further "outs" if Prime Speaker Vannifar is heavily removed. Once she gets up to a 8 mana to cast her, then you can spend a lot of time twiddling your thumbs potentially.
For that reason that the decks are so setup to chain up (and multiply into additional creatures), rather than value, having the back cards like Intruder Alarm and Thornbite Staff are less relevant for my builds. Now not to say that in builds that are purely looking to be value creatures, that they will be necessary all-stars. But just by the combo nature of my builds they literally are purely backup plans for when you don't have particular creatures at your disposal.
And as I've made it clear the weak point of the deck are more centered around having Prime Speaker Vannifar active.
So I feel it's better to have redundancy in the form of alternatives to Prime Speaker Vannifar instead.
75%
Added
+ Time Warp
+ Clever Impersonator
+ Dramatic Reversal
+ Isochron Scepter
Removed
- Thornbite Staff
- Wood Elves
- Solemn Simulacrum
- Skullwinder
The reason I went with Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal over Paradox Engine, is that you have access to a bunch of your 2 or less instants and sorcery with Spellseeker. Often the problem with Isochron Scepter is that it sits in your hand until you get a card to exile with it.
But using Prime Speaker Vannifar to get Spellseeker means that you have a suite of cards to get, not at the very least Dramatic Reversal.
This also represents an alternative method for getting infinite mana. Having some mana creature(s) and/or artifact mana will do this.
Also Dramatic Reversal can be used with the Birthing Pod line I showed, if you have the mana sources to support it.
Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal will allow unlimited Prime Speaker Vannifar activation's, so is still a backup plan if needed as well. Even without mana sources you can untap Prime Speaker Vannifar for 2, so can get multiple activation's each turn.
Although Wood Elves and Solemn Simulacrum are normally straight up better than the counterpart "dies" land ramp creatures, the way that the deck is setup to sequence just meant that they end up being additional creatures for ramp, and I think ramping a chain once is more than enough.
Skullwinder is probably a little risky with an opponent being able to return a card, and we are giving the deck alternatives to win or sequence with now anyway, so redundancy is becoming a little less important.
I'll talk about copying creatures in future posts, so the Clever Impersonator is just a solid value card, but can be used to make an additional copy of Birthing Pod if necessary, among other uses..
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
So although she cost four mana, you can easily use her to play out much higher costing creatures, and indeed she gives you access to non-legendary creatures and legendary creatures in an extremely efficient manner.
If you've had your eye on a particular creature in Simic that you've wanted to build around, but because they were non-legendary couldn't focus on it too much, well now you can.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary has been the closest to being able to do this sort of thing for you in the past. But the difference between needing to cast it or just putting into play is where the real difference is. Momir also requires multi colored creatures least you need a way to draw the creatures as well. Too slow is the answer to really have used him truly effectively in a manner where you can fully concentrate on a particular creature in your deck as the central part of your strategy.
The other reason that Prime Speaker Vannifar will be so effective at this sort of thing is that you have access to a ton of graveyard retrieval cards, as well as even exile retrieval with Riftsweeper.
Eternal Witness, Skullwinder, Greenwarden of Murasa, are creatures that can get any card back.
Sylvan Hierophant, Moldgraf Monstrosity, Genesis, Grave Sifter, can also get creatures back.
You can use Spellseeker to get cards like Regrowth and Nostalgic Dreams to name some, to get back cards from graveyard as well.
Loaming Shaman, Barishi, Rooting Kavu, Elvish Soultiller, will allow you to shuffle creatures back into your library making it easy to search for them again.
So in this respect, if you wanted to focus on a particular creature or even set of creatures for your deck, Prime Speaker Vannifar can truly act as a proxy for builds that you've imagined or now yet to imagine.
A list of unique creatures that are in my collection, that I think would be fun and powerful to build around, treating them as sort of pseudo "commanders";
Thing in the Ice, Hermit Druid, Arcane Artisan, Sage of Fables, Synod Artificer, Grand Architect, Jace's Archivist, Sigil Tracer, Cold-Eyed Selkie, Faerie Artisans, Beast Whisperer, Temur Sabertooth, Elite Arcanist, Beguiler of Wills, Djinn of Wishes, Mirror-Mad Phantasm, Quicksilver Elemental, Willbreaker, Tendershoot Dryad, Sages of the Anima, Omnispell Adept, Consecrated Sphinx, Guile, Roil Elemental, Rampaging Baloths, Realm Seekers, Nacatl War-Pride, Vigor, Scourge of Fleets, Regal Force.
Now some of you will still be confused at what I'm trying to portray. I don't just mean you have a better chance at said creatures because they are good in your deck, I mean you can really build around a particular creature(s).
So for example, Willbreaker has a very specific ability. You can design much of your deck to her ability using Prime Speaker Vannifar to get you access to her, and giving you resiliency with tools to get it back in the face of removal.
There is a slew of cards that target that you can use to steal your opponents creatures. You'd probably play some sacrifice outlets like Phyrexian Altar to make sure opponents didn't get their creatures back. The options are bountiful.
You can double up on "untap" cards that you might use for Prime Speaker Vannifar to use on opponents creatures;
Aim High, Cerulean Wisps, Burst of Strength, Dream's Grip, etc
Aphetto Alchemist, Seeker of Skybreak, Kiora's Follower, Vizier of Tumbling Sands, etc
Maybe you really want to push Cold-Eyed Selkie as a key card in your deck. So making sure you have cards that give your opponents islands will be good. Then you're happy to play pump spells, as you get rewarded. A Giant Growth becomes an Ancestral Recall, just as Richard Garfield intended.
If you can see what I'm getting at, normally you can't put too many cards that would be focused on non-commander creatures, as you rely on drawing them in your 99, so is too inconsistent to be able to build around.
But now you have a way to follow your desires more on focused non-legendary creature builds.
Another example is more like a suite of creatures with "top of library" playing creatures;
Courser of Kruphix, Oracle of Mul Daya, Vizier of the Menagerie, Magus of the Future.
Certainly one of my favorite play styles. Other Simic commanders have helmed these for me in the past, like Thrasios, Triton Hero, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary being some of the last ones I used.
But Prime Speaker Vannifar can give you a new level of access to these creatures. You can really build around the top of your library, as you know you have a way to get any of these creatures, just like they were your commander.
Have you ever wanted to play Prophet of Kruphix as your commander? Oh come on now you know you would if you could.
Well obviously Prophet of Kruphix is banned, but with Prime Speaker Vannifar, you can look to play Seedborn Muse and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir as pseudo partner commanders.
How the heck do we do this?
1.) Sacrifice 0/1 token into -> Quirion Ranger. Return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Quirion Ranger into -> Scryb Ranger. Return a Forest to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Sacrifice Scryb Ranger into -> Trophy Mage getting Thousand-Year Elixir.
4.) Cast Thousand-Year Elixir for 3 and untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
5.) Sacrifice Trophy Mage into -> Fatestitcher (with haste now) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
6.) Sacrifice Fatestitcher into -> Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
7.) Unearth Fatestitcher for U to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
8.) Sacrifice Fatestitcher into -> Seedborn Muse.
Now we can also use Prime Speaker Vannifar to get back any of the card(s) in the face of removal.
You can sequence into Eternal Witness, etc. Or in this instance you might want to put all your creatures back into your library.
With Loaming Shaman can look to put them back into your library so that you can sequence back into them.
It's all going to come down to if you have other untappers for Prime Speaker Vannifar in order for getting them back straight away or needing to use a graveyard retrieval/shuffle back into library sequence first.
Now there are stipulations. How much converted mana cost the creature is matters. The higher the converted mana cost, the more cards you need in the deck to sequence up into.
Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger, Bounding Krasis, Fatestitcher, Tidewater Minion, Great Oak Guardian, Patron of the Orochi, are some examples at each converted mana cost.
You can see that there is no creature that can untap Prime Speaker Vannifar at Seven converted mana cost. So although you can sequence into a Seven costing creature, without another way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, you can't then go into an Eight Drop creature. The same with Nine all the way up. In this respect Seven Drop creatures are the limit if you didn't want to have to wait another turn without another unatpper.
Let's say your deck is focused on Sages of the Anima turning Brainstorm into looking at the top 9 cards of your library. Each cantrip digging you super far into your deck.
Now you can use a super simply sequence like;
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop creature into -> Bounding Krasis to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
2.) Sacrifice Bounding Krasis into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
3.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Sages of the Anima.
So what if Sages of the Anima is removed straight away, let's say with Swords to Plowshares?
We have to use Riftsweeper, so we need to specifically sacrifice One Drop to into it.
We also have to either have another set of creatures that we can sequence into Sages of the Anima again.
For example you might also play;
1.) Sacrifice Riftsweeper into -> Trophy Mage getting Thousand-Year Elixir.
2.) Cast Thousand-Year Elixir for 3 and untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
3.) Sacrifice Trophy Mage into -> Fatestitcher (with haste now) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
4.) Sacrifice Fatestitcher into -> Sages of the Anima.
But this means taking up more slots in your deck for redundancy.
So an alternative method is that you can use Loaming Shaman to shuffle your previous chaining creatures back into your library.
The disadvantage with this is that unless you have a way to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar, you'll have to wait another turn to get Sages of the Anima back into play.
So the trade off is how many cards you slot in for Prime Speaker Vannifar redundancy versus waiting a turn.
If you are looking at a higher converted mana creature, for example Scourge of Fleets, then now you are looking at quite a few creatures to chain up into it. Building redundancy just to chain into it, starts becoming a lot of slots, that otherwise you might want to dedicate to the theme of your deck.
So in this respect, I feel like the higher the converted mana cost, the more likely it is you'll play Loaming Shaman as your means of recycling your chaining creatures.
If your focus creature dies, then it's easy enough to just get it back with say Sylvan Hierophant or Eternal Witness, to cast it from your hand. But in this respect maybe part of the appeal is that you don't normally have to cast it with Prime Speaker Vannifar powerful ability, so the preference is to shuffle your chaining sequences back into your library regardless.
It's going to come down to how much it costs to cast, versus maybe having to wait another turn(s) to get it back into play. The thing is that you can probably choose the preference depending on how the game is shaping up anyway.
Well now there is even the argument that you can play her instead of some legendary creatures, that you might ordinarily play in your command zone.
The reasons are two fold. At four mana she can be much cheaper to cast. Another reason is that she gives access to "signature creatures" for particular builds.
Let's take Experiment Kraj as our first example. At Six mana it's a potential full two turn slower to get it into play. Maybe this is the reason you've been wary about truly building a focus deck around it.
So it's possible to get it out early with Prime Speaker Vannifar as your actual commander at just four mana.
Now on subsequent turns, you can look to get your most synergistic cards for the build as well.
You can even setup Experiment Kraj to have Prime Speaker Vannifar ability.
Now what about removal?
Well where do opponents aim one-for-one removal? Kraj or Vannifar?
Rock-and-a-hard-place for opponent to decide on that, and this is where you can be advantage that if they get rid of Kraj, then Vannifar can just get Kraj back again with shenanigans.
So then they need to remove Vannifar, and then you're just left with Kraj, which is your whole aim.
When mass removal happens, then it's no different to having to cast Kraj for 8 mana normally, but with Vannifar you just need 6 mana to start setting up again.
It's a very interesting proposal for alternative ways to approach deck making in Simic from now on in my opinion.
Prime Speaker Zegana and Tishana, Voice of Thunder are other prime candidates (yeah had to go there) of perhaps using Prime Speaker Vannifar as an alternative to build around them.
Costing a full 3 mana less than Tishana, Voice of Thunder is certainly appealing and your ability to setup a creature base before hand with Prime Speaker Vannifar makes for far more consistent build in my opinion.
Paying for commander tax can be better mitigated. Normally if your plan is to have Prime Speaker Zegana or Tishana, Voice of Thunder go back to your commander zone for recasting, then you'll need to obviously pay more.
But with Prime Speaker Zegana ability to sacrifice, you can send these guys to your graveyard, shuffle them back in and then get them back into play at literally no mana cost if you get an engine going.
It's a different approach for sure, but has a huge upside.
Now that's not to say that there are not downsides to this approach. There are more potential hate cards that you can run into, for example Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Grafdigger's Cage, Containment Priest, Aven Mindcensor, that Prime Speaker Zegana and Tishana, Voice of Thunder wouldn't probably worry about.
You also have to dedicate a number of cards to specifically Prime Speaker Zegana ability to chain, as well as retrieval cards.
But my point is that you don't have to just think about builds around non-legendary, certainly there are some cases where legendary creatures that you'd normally have in your command zone are better off in your 99 with Prime Speaker Vannifar at the helm instead.
If you're playing Prime Speaker Vannifar, why not just focus your build around her?
There will be some creative deck builders who will get exactly what I mean, and their will be some who will be confused at this idea.
I'll just leave it to you what you can take out of this post.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Timestream Navigator
With Prime Speaker Vannifar ability to search for any creature, being able to search Timestream Navigator potentially every turn..well you guessed it, can get you infinite turns. So you can look for this card to be a win condition.
But there are some requirements in order to be able to do this. Firstly you need to always have a creature to sacrifice. If you are sacrificing creatures then you need to be able to produce them from somewhere.
The other thing is that you will need some way of giving the Timestream Navigator haste or be able to activate it's ability because of summoning sickness. Otherwise you'll only get an extra turn every alternative turn, which honestly isn't the worst
But for true infinite you'll need to have some way of doing all this.
The City's Blessing is another requirement, as well as spending 2UU, but these are not hard to achieve.
You are going to need to chain from a One Drop into Timestream Navigator.
How do you produce a One Drop creature every turn?
There is no easy way to keep producing an actual One Drop each turn that I have found or can think of.
Creating token creatures seems to be the only feasible way of doing this, which means that you can produce Zero costing creatures. So then you have to go Zero Drop into One Drop into Timestream Navigator.
There are hundreds of ways to potentially create token creatures, but just for example some of the easier ways are;
Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafter, Kazandu Tuskcaller, Master of the Wild Hunt, Tendershoot Dryad.
If you specifically sacrifice Tukatongue Thallid or Blisterpod as your One Drop, then you'll get a token creature.
Another way to get creatures into play that are non-Zero costing tokens, is with Bramble Sovereign. You could potential copy the One Drop creature you search for and make a copy.
If we are going Zero Drop into One Drop into Timestream Navigator, then this also means that we need an untapper. You really need some sort of on-board untapper when looking to go infinite.
Also for true infinite, if you're having to search up a One Drop creature each time, then it's going to either be dependent on how many one drops you have in the deck, or an ability to put a One Drop continuously back in your library.
Cards that can put cards from graveyard back into your library;
Hua Tuo, Honored Physician, Battlefield Scrounger, Elvish Soultiller, Epitaph Golem,
Soldevi Digger, Reito Lantern, Bow of Nylea.
Academy Ruins can put an One Drop artifact creature.
So our checklist of things looks like this;
There will be a ton of different ways you can set this up, but I'll give you an example sequence.
Because Thousand-Year Elixir can check-off both mitigating summoning sickness and give you an on-board untapper, I feel like this will probably be key to helping you achieve this as a win condition.
I'm going to use Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir line, but also going to mix it in with Protean Hulk to better set us up.
1.) Sacrifice Two Drop creature into -> Trophy Mage getting Thousand-Year Elixir.
2.) Cast Thousand-Year Elixir for 3 and untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
3.) Sacrifice Trophy Mage into -> Fatestitcher (with haste now) to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
4.) Sacrifice Fatestitcher into -> Tidewater Minion to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
5.) Sacrifice Tidewater Minion into -> Woodland Bellower getting Bounding Krasis to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
6.) Sacrifice Woodland Bellower into -> Protean Hulk.
7.) Unearth Fatestitcher U to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
8.) Sacrifice Protean Hulk into ..
9.) Getting Timestream Navigator + Tukatongue Thallid + Birds of Paradise + Arbor Elf + Elvish Mystic + Dryad Arbor.
10.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
*Note that you can tap all the mana creatures for mana because of Thousand-Year Elixir, so these can literally pay the 2UU for the Timestream Navigator.
*We also literally have the City's Blessing with at minimum 8 permanents plus how ever many lands and other cards you've put into play.
Next turn..
11.) Sacrifice Tukatongue Thallid into -> Timestream Navigator.
12.) Tukatongue Thallid creates a 1/1 Saproling.
13.) Activate Timestream Navigator for 2UU to take an extra turn.
14.) Untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir for t1.
15.) Sacrifice Bounding Krasis into -> Breaching Hippocamp to untap Prime Speaker Vannifar.
16.) Sacrifice Breaching Hippocamp into -> Body Double copying Trophy Mage getting Bow of Nylea.
17.) Cast Bow of Nylea for 1GG.
18.) Activate Bow of Nylea for t1G putting Tukatongue Thallid on bottom of library.
*Note you don't actually have to cast and activate the Bow of Nylea straight away, you can wait a few turns as you got a number of One Drops from Protean Hulk anyway.
Now you can keep putting both Timestream Navigator and Tukatongue Thallid onto the bottom of your library to have infinite turns.
You can sacrifice the 1/1 Saproling into Tukatongue Thallid, untap Prime Speaker Vannifar with Thousand-Year Elixir and chain into Timestream Navigator. The Bow of Nylea keeps letting you get Tukatongue Thallid each time.
Now this isn't the only way to do this, but this was the most mana efficient method that I came up with.
In conclusion
This is actually a really nice alternative to Peregrine Drake and Deadeye Navigator, as you don't need 3 lands in play.
You need 4U to start it off, but not having 3 lands is an advantage if you've been using Quirion Ranger and Scryb Ranger, and you're using Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, mana creatures, etc to pay for casting and activating the Thousand-Year Elixir.
This combo requires very few "extra cards" with Timestream Navigator, Bow of Nylea, Tukatongue Thallid/Blisterpod, Tidewater Minion.
Because it specifically requires Thousand-Year Elixir to work, it's not an absolute substitute for Ezuri, Claw of Progress + Sage of Hours combo in that you can't just use any method with Protean Hulk, it specifically requires using a Trophy Mage/Thousand-Year Elixir.
So you can't just use Flash + Protean Hulk this combo, without needing more mana, like Ezuri, Claw of Progress/ Sage of Hours.
For example you could Flash + Protean Hulk into Timestream Navigator + Trophy Mage + Birds of Paradise + Dryad Arbor.
You can cast the Thousand-Year Elixir and Birds of Paradise, Dryad Arbor can tap for mana, so you need 5UU all up, but the mana creatures will mean that you only need to have an extra 3UU.
[EDIT]
Actually you could go Timestream Navigator + Tukatongue Thallid + Vitaspore Thallid + Sidisi's Faithful + Dryad Arbor.
Sacrifice Tukatongue Thallid with Sidisi's Faithful.
Sacrifice the 1/1 Saproling with Vitaspore Thallid to give Timestream Navigator haste and activate it.
In your next turn, you'll still need to setup Thousand-Year Elixir because you need haste for every turn for the Timestream Navigator, so it'll require some specific sequencing again.
But you could potential start this off with 2UU instead if really pushed for mana.
Now the reason I picked Tukatongue Thallid over Blisterpod is because I've discussed it's synergy with Vitaspore Thallid to be able to give a creature haste. So it's just better to think in terms of how your build might be able to incorporate both these.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith