I disagree with your cuts. There are cards in your deck that should go way before removing solid cards like Acidic Slime and Blasphemous Act. I would also argue that the latter is much better than Comet Storm at doing much of the second thing.
My suggestions for removal are Seedguide Ash, Protean Hulk (what does it even do for you?), Phyrexian Plaguelord. Maybe even Lavalanche.
Suggestions against lifegain:
Tainted Cure is pretty funny. So is Everlasting Torment, and Witch Hunt. I like Havoc Festival most though.
Archfiend of Despair is a new one and a threat.
Rampaging Ferocidon is banned in Standard so it might be worth a try.
Suggestions for threats:
Considering your high creature count, and your opponents being izzet and esper, I would highly suggest Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. You would not believe how quickly the damage racks up.
Primordial Hydra also comes to mind as a way to utilize the absurd amount of mana you can make. Not to mention there are hydras that split into tokens when they die, or give you life and cards, or even Genesis Wave. I would consider pumping your mana into a Timmy creature and seeing how it turns out.
Another suggestion - The Scorpion God. Good body, can draw you cards and kill creatures, and difficult to kill completely.
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - the body is probably not amazing but still seems ok. Throwing Multani and Rubblehulk into your opponents' faces is probably a great moment, and he should be very easy for you to recur, so he will also be a persistent problem for your opponents.
Sepulchral Primordial - if all else fails. Your opponents are bound to have something interesting lurking around and this is a great way to steal it for yourself.
I disagree with your cuts. There are cards in your deck that should go way before removing solid cards like Acidic Slime and Blasphemous Act. I would also argue that the latter is much better than Comet Storm at doing much of the second thing.
My suggestions for removal are Seedguide Ash, Protean Hulk (what does it even do for you?), Phyrexian Plaguelord. Maybe even Lavalanche.
Seedguide was really close to being on the list above. So, that is one that I can see eventually finding its way out of the deck. Plaguelord is a sac outlet, but due to the way the deck has been moving, it may no longer do as much as I expected it to. It has stuck around because it is a favorite card of mine from when I first started playing. Nostalgia is certainly not the best reason, but it is a large part of keeping it. Lavalanche is getting cut eventually and is in the list of cards I mentioned to cut. Comet Storm replaces Lavalanche; Toxic Deluge replaces Blasphemous Act.
I have already commented on my reasons for Protean Hulk the last time you made the comment about "what does it do for you?". I am willing to discuss the merits of those reasons. But, as there is no further evolution of the discussion around this card, there is no reason to just reiterate my reasons I have already stated.
Suggestions against lifegain:
Tainted Cure is pretty funny. So is Everlasting Torment, and Witch Hunt. I like Havoc Festival most though.
Archfiend of Despair is a new one and a threat.
Rampaging Ferocidon is banned in Standard so it might be worth a try.
I assume you mean False Cure? That is interesting, but is a one-shot. I would rather find either permanent-based ways of dealing with the lifegain or just work to prevent them from casting the lifegain spell to begin with.
Archfiend of Despair is probably the best option here but being 8 mana is a real downside. I can keep it in the back of my mind though Erebos is likely to be the most of what I need. Time will tell.
The rest of the options hurt me more than they help. I don't care if the Aminatou player can't gain life if I can't either. After all, them making me lose 15-30 life with those spells will likely spell my death before I can do anything with the fact that they didn't gain life off of them. My life gain is the only reason I have been able to stay in some games as it is.
Suggestions for threats:
Considering your high creature count, and your opponents being izzet and esper, I would highly suggest Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. You would not believe how quickly the damage racks up.
Interesting. I like this option, though against the Izzet player it isn't going to do all that much. They are pretty heavily creature focused. (Re-thinking this: though they have a lot of creatures, they do have quite a few noncreatures they cast on their way to building their board). It would do a lot against the Bant player though. This is one I might have to keep my eyes on and I will have to evaluate how much it hurts me as I have a fair number of noncreature spells too.
Primordial Hydra also comes to mind as a way to utilize the absurd amount of mana you can make. Not to mention there are hydras that split into tokens when they die, or give you life and cards, or even Genesis Wave. I would consider pumping your mana into a Timmy creature and seeing how it turns out.
I don't like Primordial Hydra as it doesn't do a lot beyond just being a threat (it is hard to block though). However, your comments remind me that Lifeblood Hydra exists. This is a great card in Karador and there is no reason to think this would not work just as well in Lord Windgrace. That solves a lot of problems for me in that I can gain a bunch of life as well as refill my hand.
Another suggestion - The Scorpion God. Good body, can draw you cards and kill creatures, and difficult to kill completely.
I am not a huge fan due to the intensive mana cost to actually draw a card (very few creatures will be 1 toughness). However, as you mentioned Plaguelord up above, this good make a more useful replacement for that. I like the idea of the God though (especially being hard to kill). I might have to slot this one in too.
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - the body is probably not amazing but still seems ok. Throwing Multani and Rubblehulk into your opponents' faces is probably a great moment, and he should be very easy for you to recur, so he will also be a persistent problem for your opponents.
Hmm...interesting. This is a card that I have seen do a lot of work in other types of builds so I never gave him much thought in this. Flinging a creature seems pretty good. Plus his activated ability can be a benefit with something like Ob Nixilis on the board with a Splendid reclamation in hand as it lets me sac a bunch of Swamps and Forests to then, eventually, get landfall triggers.
Sepulchral Primordial - if all else fails. Your opponents are bound to have something interesting lurking around and this is a great way to steal it for yourself.
Other than the Saheeli player, I am unlikely to hit much very often with this. Tuvasa has generally smaller creatures and Aminatou doesn't have a lot of creatures either (though they have big fliers). I am not sure this is what I want to be spending 7 mana on.
Overall, there are very good suggestions in here so I will have to see what I can do, or want to do, to get some of these added.
Sorry, the correct wording for the card is Tainted Remedy.
I would try out the Archfiend anyway, since Wound Reflection is a pretty damn good effect to have on a giant beater.
I guess I see your points about swapping the mass removals, however Acidic Slime just takes care of so much stuff. I would consider removing the Naturalize with Strive instead. If you find that mass noncreatures are too much of a problem, perhaps you should try something like Wave of Vitriol instead.
EDIT: I also wanted to suggest Mogis, God of Slaughter. Gradually taxes your opponents and can accumulate a bunch of damage - your opponents also seem like they don't have a lot of tokens to sac to his ability.
Both are good options though I would prefer Ob Nixilis if I feel I really need the effect. I prefer creatures as they are easier to recur. However, the 10 life is probably not a big deal since they just gain it all back. I am not sure I need much in this department for now though.
Edited:
Was gonna suggest Glacial Chasm, but it only prevents damage, not life loss.. What helps though is just destroying their lands to keep their mana down.. With Lord Windgrace, Strip Mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge and such I think you can blow up a few lands per turn with just that if you wanted.. There are obviously more cards that can help this strategy...
Those aren't bad but they are not really "budget" so I would have to save up to include these for our league. Edge isn't too bad, but Strip Mine is $15 and Wasteland is even more. I might do more with this in the future though.
A few things I could find that might help vs the life loss:
Zuran Orb is a thing... Although not always the best card it can give you massive life at times.. If you save up mana to do stuff and maybe get the lands back from Reclamation..
This isn't bad, but it just leads to a "combo" kill with Ob Nixilis, the Fallen and works a little too well with Gitrog. I like the idea, but based on my experience with my Gitrog deck, adding this creates a situation where that is what I would try to do fairly often and it becomes boring.
Platinum Emperion can make you not lose life... Not sure if it would be a good fit, imo it is not really something you want in a deck like this...
Yeah, 8 mana is a little too high and easily dies, especially to my own Bane of Progress.
Maybe Miren, the Moaning Well, it gives you life and can be used to sacrifice creatures.. Also it's a land.. ^^
This is literally the first card I added to the deck Once we are done with the League, Diamond Valley will make it in too.
Atarka's Command has multiple uses for the deck, might be a nice inclusion that can work in more than one situation...
I definitely hadn't thought of this so I may need to determine if this effect is good enough to make the cut.
Plunge into Darkness - its instant, can gain you life, but also gives you somewhat search lets say...
I am finding I don't often have a huge army anymore. I think if I kept Avenger and Baloths this would be a reasonable card. The suggestion is good and if I move back towards adding those cards, this might make it in too.
Eternity Vessel - with landfall keep getting you back to the life you had when you played it.. idk...
6 mana is a lot and I really need to get it out early and have it survive. I am not sure if it would ever survive long enough to do what I want it to.
Not sure these are good enough, but the Gladehart is probably what I would go with. Again, not sure this is what I want but I like the idea (I know the Retreat had been mentioned before too) so I may pick them up just in case.
I guess I see your points about swapping the mass removals, however Acidic Slime just takes care of so much stuff. I would consider removing the Naturalize with Strive instead. If you find that mass noncreatures are too much of a problem, perhaps you should try something like Wave of Vitriol instead.
This is a fine point, but because we are still dealing with mostly precons (and this is actually mostly true even outside the precons in my meta) there are not many lands I would want to destroy. I think Strip Mine and Wasteland are good options to include if I need to eventually, but the added flexibility of destroying lands with Slime isn't really that useful and, for me, the ability to destroy more than one thing, at Instant timing, with Consign to Dust has been a great help. On at least one occasion, this has let me win the game where Acidic Slime would not.
I understand the reluctance of cutting Acidic Slime but it has been caught in my hand more times than I am comfortable with. Maybe once the decks eveolve further or once the League is done, it might find its way back in. As of now, it is doing very little and I like World Breaker in the slot (even though it is 2 mana more) for a variety of reasons.
Ok, in that case I agree. What do you think of Tainted Remedy and Mogis?
I don't like Tainted Remedy because a) it is narrow and b) it dies too easily. And, I understand the issue with wanting a narrow effect (stopping lifegain for opponents) to not be narrow, but there it is. This may end up being just a mis-evaluation of the card and its impact, but right now the only things it really hits are Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless. While good, it effectively just means the Aminatou player needs to spend a removal spell first before casting either spell. If they don't have removal, it makes it so those options are eliminated, but I can see it being a dead card more often than not. Maybe not and it certainly does help. If there was a creature version of this I would be more inclined to try it out since it can at least do something (attack) even if the ability itself never comes up.
Mogis on the other hand has some decent applications. It is a (slow) win con, it survives most of the wraths the meta uses (basically it gets got by Merciless Eviction, Forsake the Worldly, and Return to Dust). It is a big creature when I get it turned on and swinging for 7 is nothing to scoff at. As you alluded to above, the Tuvasa and Aminatou players will rarely have anything they want to sac to it so they will take 2. Saheeli always has tokens, but at least it can keep said tokens in check for a little while. I picked a Mogis up and I will see if I can slot it into the deck next week (I have spent my budget this week since I really want Winding Canyons in the deck).
Speaking of which, here is where I am currently at with potential changes. This has changed a few times as our current conversation has gone on and has changed while I attempt to stick to our weekly budget. I have about $30 this week since I had carry over from last week. These are subject to change as our changes are not actually made until Saturday, so I might change my mind on a few things (probably Winding Canyons since it takes so much of my budget):
Most of these have already been discussed in the past few posts, so I don't want to go over them again now. Once I make my final changes on Saturday, I will go into more detail on each as to why I made those changes.
Acidic Slime - For a number of reasons, World Breaker fits better in this slot and gives me a bigger body and a relevant ability. Agent of Erebos - I have Bojuka Bog and 2 Instants that can exile graveyards Burnished Hart and Seedguide Ash - cutting down a little on ramp Rubblehulk - This was a tough one, but I found that I rarely cared about the "trick" it allows and it is just chump blocked as a creature. I am going to try some time without it to see if I miss it. Turntimber Sower - I mentioned earlier that I wanted to cut this before now, but the interaction with Borborygmos led me to keeping it a bit longer. I don't think it is really working out after a few more of my changes. Ultimately, I may try to get Life from the Loam in this slot.
And, here are the noncreatures I cut:
Chain Reaction and Lavalanche - I am cutting down a little on the wraths and, as a wrath, Lavalanche is not very good. It works as a kill spell which I didn't want to lose but I feel Comet Storm is just much better. Chain Reaction is replaced with Pernicious Deed as a "better" kill spell. Greater Good - I really like this card, but I have been finding that I don't often need it. I fairly often am able to keep my hand full as it is and Lifeblood Hydra, the Scorpion God, and Erebos help in this regard too. Skyshroud Claim - Of the noncreature ramp, this is probably the "worst". It is still really good, but I do feel I have gone a bit overboard on ramp, so this is the one I want to cut for now.
Now, the new cards are ones that either fill in some gaps, add to my threats, or offer more utility in my game plan (or a combination of these). One thing to comment on is that I decided to push out the addition of Winding Canyons. Not only does it take a fair amount of the weekly budget, it also is less relevant than some of the other additions. I am hoping to get this added in next week as I do think it gives me a way to come out of nowhere with a win. So, here are my thoughts on the additions:
Comet Storm - A better kill spell and a removal spell in a pinch. I have a lot of mana at my disposal so I can see this being very good in the late game. Erebos, God of the Dead - This is anti-life gain for my opponents as well as card draw. The life payment might be a concern, but I am hoping the Hydra can offset this a little. Lifeblood Hydra - Speaking of the Hydra: this gives me life gain and card draw stapled to a big body. The fact that it has Trample is extremely relevant as a threat and can be used to keep me in the game or get me back in. Mogis, God of Slaughter - This gives me a big indestructible body that also has an incremental effect as the game wears on. This could keep players in check with their creatures or slowly dwindle their life total to make it easier for the rest of my threats to finish the job. Pernicious Deed - A replacement for one of the wraths above that can take out a lot of things. This is more relevant against Tuvasa as my current wraths have a problem dealing with the Totem Armors and auras that grant indestructible. This doesn't kill the creatures any better but it gets rid of all the auras instead of just one Totem Armor. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed - This is probably the biggest "risk/reward" card I am adding. It can deal a lot of damage to everyone, but that includes me. I will have to see how much damage I end up taking from him compared to the amount of damage dealt to everyone else. Sadistic Sacrament - This has a number of uses. Mainly, it gets Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless so I don't have to worry about them. The other players are also starting to go more in on Combos so this can help break those up before they can get them on the board. I am hoping this becomes extremely impactful against the others and, if it does, I will likely add in Greenwarden of Murasa as another way to get it back. The Scorpion God - This is card draw, threat, and removal all in one. None of these things separately are all that great on this card since the draw and removal parts are expensive and the Threat is somewhat easily dealt with. But, combined, it can make for a potent package (or, so I am hoping). Thrashing Brontodon - This is another replacement for Acidic Slime but is one that can deal with a Torpor Orb. Needing to sacrifice it can be useful as it gives me an easy way to get it back with my Recursion. World Breaker - A big body with an ability that lets me recur it that is generally not much of a drawback (it could be hard to activate for now, but even one use is decent) and an ability that lets me permanently get rid of annoying artifacts and enchantments.
Overall, this cuts me down on ramp, increases threats, and replaces removal with cards that are hopefully more relevant and better suited for the game plan this deck wants to be employing. I will end up playing this list next week so I will provide some updates then.
We played 2 games last night. I ended up winning the first and I got crushed in the second. I honestly don't remember a lot about either game (I really need to start taking notes). I know I ended up winning the first game off the back of Bane of Progress to kill 3 things but it got me back my Thrashing Brontodon that had been exiled with an enchantment. Then, I think I cast a Lifeblood Hydra and just beat down with those two for a while until I won. I had a couple smaller creatures that also were able to attack for some damage. Yavimaya Dryad was actually relevant so I could attack Tuvasa and take the Monarch from them. From there, I just kept the board clean enough that I could attack.
Game 2 was awful. I stalled on mana early and didn't have the ramp I needed to do much. I dropped a Pernicious Deed around turn 7 and activated it to blow most of the board. From there, I did basically nothing. Tuvasa dropped an Enchanted Evening so everything was an Enchantment. I was actively looking for a Bane of Progress just to say I did it but it would have made the game go on forever so it is probably best I didn't get it. In any case, I got beat down with creatures from Saheeli and Tuvasa was huge from all their enchantments and they had their creature that made her unblockable. So, I really had no change without my Bane of Progress. Even blowing up Enchanted Evening at that time probably wouldn't have been enough.
Tuvasa ended up winning that game pretty handily.
All in all, it is tough to say whether certain cuts (or additions for that matter) made a difference. Having Acidic Slime may have helped but World Breaker did some work that second game too. I did have a misplay where I should have gotten World Breaker back from my graveyard and exiled Enchanted Evening but due to the fact that they could give stuff trample and make it unblockable, I didn't have just 1 target to deal with to save me. In any case, I didn't feel that there was any time in either game where a card I cut was the card I needed in that scenario.
The main additions that did anything were World Breaker and Lifeblood Hydra. Brontodon was good as insurance just sitting on the board so I like that over Slime. Ruric Thar did come down in game 2 and essentially just cost Aminatou 6 life to deal with it. Saheeli then exiled it with Mimic Vat so that didn't help things from my end. Eating removal early is kind of expected so I will have to see how often that happens. If he gets on the board and just dies, it probably isn't worth it.
I also got The Scorpion God and it drew me 1 card by killing an opponent's creature. I also got in for 6 damage once before it was exiled to a Duplicant. I did find that when I had it, it was almost never the right play to use the ability. When I did draw a card, it was because I was able to activate it twice to kill something. But, 6 mana to kill a creature and draw a card is not very efficient. I am not sure how long he sticks around, but I am willing to keep him around for a while longer.
I am mostly happy with the changes made so far with Ruric Thar and The Scorpion God being the most disappointing. That is not to say they are bad but, of the cards I added, these seem the weakest so far. Time will tell if they come into their own.
I have already looked at the next round of additions. I do have a bit of carryover that I could use to add these right away (I don't think our group ever got to a consensus on whether we can constantly make changes throughout the week or only one time at the beginning of the week) so I will see if I add them before Friday or not. As of now, here are the cards I am thinking of adding:
Chainer, Dementia Master - I would cut Stitch Together for Chainer. This gives me an Instant way of reanimating crucial creatures. The main issue is having the black mana when I need it. I want to eventually add Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth anyway, but the current budget doesn't allow for it (unless I spend an entire week's budget on it). Even without it, I can see this being useful anyway, so I think I am going to add him. Spike Weaver - Pretty much 75% of win conditions are combat damage focused so having a creature form of Fog ensures I should have a way to prevent damage. It also gives me a way to stop an alpha strike by getting it off Protean Hulk. Realm Seekers - This is something that gives me a big creature. But, more importantly, it keeps my hand full of lands for Lord Windgrace and Borborygmos. It also gets me utility lands such as High Market and Miren. Since World Breaker can only come back with colorless mana, it becomes more important for me to have a colorless mana source. And those two lands are ones I want to have anyway. Ulvenwald Hydra - I am not sure on this but it a) gets me a "free" land b) gives me a big creature to either attack with or sacrifice to Miren for a bunch of life and c) gives me a Reach creature to block incoming flyers. Overall, there is a fair amount of utility in this card. Life from the Loam - This is the most questionable one for now mostly just because I don't have "real" fetches. But, it works to get me discarded lands back and lets me ensure I hit my land drops while also drawing cards off Lord Windgrace. The main issue with this for now is that it takes a lot of the budget for the week and I am not sure I want to use it on this yet.
About your possible upgrades: Chainer, Dementia Master - Good card, don't feel it fits that great in this deck, specialy cause of his black cost. Definitely can be really impactfull, I would say if I wanted something like reanimation this is probably not my go2, but he is fairly cheap (money wise) compared to possible other options. So give it a whirl if you wanna try him.. I had a deck with him as the Commander and that deck did pretty wel.. ^^
Chainer is definitely one that might be questionable due to the needed black mana. In other decks I haven't had issues (he is freaking fantastic in Karador), but I also have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in those decks. The ultimate plan is to include that in this deck. I am just jumping the gun a bit
Maze of Ith might be good also.. Though the latter is quite expensive and not as impactful.. Glacial also saves you from normal damage.. the 2 life and land sacrifice for the Glacial Chasm are overall not a big issue.. Also it's a land so harder to get rid of generally speaking.. Weaver can get removed before they wanna attack.. Glacial can be also, but land destruction in the other decks doesn't seem that logical they add a lot of those... just my 2 cent here.. ^^ Also you can keep getting Glacial back if it's not removed from Windgrace.. Get it and another land back.. sac the second land for Glacial.. Glacial makes you unable to attack, but you can sacrifice it by not paying the cost.. Attack, then return with Windgrace.. for example.. ^^
You could also run both if you really feel you need to..
I like the idea of Glacial Chasm as a goiitcha card (especially with Crop Rotation). The biggest thing right now is that neither taps for mana and I never want to see either one early. I think eventually I will include one of them (not both; it will probably be the Chasm since I don't use it as much as I should).
Life from the Loam - Kinda a must have in land matters deck, though I get not having fetch makes this less 'broken/good', but having things like cycle cards, sac. lands that add more mana, strip mine, etc.. It still is quite good.. Also works wel with the previously mentioned Glacial Chasm.. Or cards like Borborygmos Enraged..
Strip Mine is another card in my list of cards to get but a) it is expensive (a lot more than I thought) and b) my group, even outside this league, doesn't do a lot with really good non basics (other than me) so there aren't as many good targets. But yeah, Life from the Loam needs to be in this deck at some point. I have almost added it twice but cost and lack of good targets has me delaying the add for now. Once I get my fetches added(probably next year some time), this will get added too.
For reanimation I might suggest - Living Death, cause it has 2 sides to it, it also nukes the board, if you can Bojuka bog (for example) or Scavenging Ooze the other players so they don't have a grave this wil give you back what you have in your grave, kill the board and get ahead by quite a large margin.. ^^
Just a suggestion if you really wanted to add a reanimation card.. There are quite a few other options, but I feel that overall a card like that having double usage is the better way to go.. Though I would just go with things like Eternal Witness to just get cards back to the hand... Cause a lot of times you might not need a creature but removal, lands or other spells to win or get back...
Hope my feedback is helpful.. And good luck on your next games..
Ooze needs to be in this deck at some point I think. Living Death is an interesting card and one that I don't do a lot with. I will have to keep it in the back of my mind. As for Eternal Witness, I got that added a couple weeks back because it is a fantastic card.
Overall, the deck is shaping up nicely and the games I have lost are more because I start slow. And by that I mean I have little ramp to start with or no real threats or answers. I think this is more of a Mulligan problem as I don't often like throwing away "could be good" hands. It also shines a light on the importance of balance in the deck regarding ramp. I have cut a few lately and I may have gone too far in that direction. The main issue is getting them late when they don't matter.
So, I enjoy the deck (and I appreciate all the suggestions/comments above) and, like any other deck, it has gotten to a point where "tuning" is the goal. Finding the right balance for everything and finding out what does and doesn't work.
It looks like we might be playing a few games tomorrow so I am going to try to keep track of the games a bit better so I can provide a decent summary of each. We also get to make changes for this week, so I will include whatever changes I make tomorrow along with whatever summary I decide to post.
I had made a couple extra changes in the middle of the week last week that I never recorded, so here is what I did there:
CUTS Mountain - I am still trying to find the right number of lands. I am going to go back down to 40 to see if that is right and a Mountain is the best land to cut. Nesting Dragon - This is the one of the better "new" cards but I have been getting kind of down on it lately. If I don't get it out early enough, or I can't get a bunch of lands back, it just doesn't do a lot. With some more recent additions (Omnath is the biggest one) I think I can afford to cut this for now and see if the deck really cares about not having it. Mainly, the issue is that it doesn't do enough on its own so drawing it doesn't really put me ahead nor does it get me back in the game whereas other cards do (Realm Seekers and Ulvenwald get me Miren to gain a bunch of life; Omnath gives me a better army in the same situation; Borborygmos gives me Lightning Bolts. etc.) Thantis, the Warweaver - This was tough. I really, really like this card. And, it may be a mistake, but a 5/5 Vigilance with Reach isn't that good. It does force everyone to attack but I have slowly been moving away from a "swarm" type of deck (I prefer attrition strategies for this type of deck) so making everyone attack doesn't do as much for me and leaves me fewer options for blockers when I need them.
We ended up playing a coiuple games tonight. They were not "league" games since not everyone was there, but we still wanted to play with our new changes. I ended up making the following changes:
Temur Sabertooth was not doing as much as I wanted it to. Beyond ramp, the deck doesn't have a lot of ETB effects so I figured it was safe to cut. Spike Weaver took its place. Winding Canyons took the place of a Mountain.
We played two games tonight, but one isn't worth going into too much detail about. The Tuvasa player wasn't there so another player playing Slivers was there instead. The first game started off with Saheeli getting a Darksteel Forge on turn 4, followed by a Mycosynth Lattice later (and maybe a copy of the Forge later). I wasn't doing much but I had a Pernicious Deed on board to threaten the destruction of everyone's lands (except Saheeli). After a couple turns, the Sliver player just cast Armageddon anyway. I played a land and passed. Saheeli blew up my land and I just scooped. In the end, Saheeli ended up winning.
The second game was much more of an actual game. I started off slow but got down some ramp with some removal. Saheeli again got two Forges, but not much else. It took a long time to do anything with them. In the meantime, they got their Lattice and tried to Vandalblast. Luckily, Aminatou countered it. Aminatou had a tough game, but was able to Merciless Eviction the Slivers (at the time, they were a huge threat). I was able to cast World Breaker 3 or 4 times that game to exile the Saheeli's 2 Forges and I tried to get rid of the Lattice. They bounced it and I ended up casting Putrefy next turn.
I ended up winning with a huge Multani and a 28/28 Realm Seekers took out the Slivers player. The final play of the game was flashing in a World Breaker to exile a Noxious Gearhulk and then flashing in Eternal Witness to grab my Gaze of Granite. This let me cast Gaze on my turn to wrath the Aminatou's 8 Angel tokens so I could swing for lethal.
Winding Canyons was huge in this game and actually got blown up twice but I kept getting it back. It was instrumental in being able to do things at the right time to win the game.
It's been a while since I played this deck, but we finally got a chance to play again last night. This week we are doing some "fun" games in that we are throwing a couple other things into the mix. Last night we played with Vanguard cards. If we play on Friday, we will likely play with Planechase cards (and maybe Vanguard as well).
So, we played 2 games last night. I am not going to go into much detail on either one, but I want to get the second game out of the way since it was awful:
Because of my Vanguard card, I started the game with 10 cards in hand and 49 life. I started with 2 lands in hand and Wood Elves and Farhaven Elf. I figured that I had already dug 10 deep so I was bound to draw another land in the top 3 cards. I was wrong. I drew my third land on turn 5 or 6 and it was a Canyon Slough so it entered tapped. I untapped and cast Pernicious Deed solely because the Saheeli player cast Mycosynth Lattice. Unfortunately, they had a Darksteel Forge out as well. They had a massive board already compared to everyone else who really had nothing (and I skipped 3 turns already). They came after me and I blew up the Deed for 0 to destroy everyone's lands. I scooped after that.
It was a bit petty as the others maybe could have done something, but I was a bit agitated that in 16 cards, I drew 3 lands. I just wanted the game to end at that point.
The first game was a little better but not by much. That game, in regards to Vanguards, was:
Saheeli again ramped out a lot of stuff and got to a Sharding Sphinx, Darksteel Forge, Combustible Gearhulk, and Soul of New Phyrexia. This was around turn 7 or 8. Saheeli went after Animatou quite a bit. I tried a couple times to convince Animatou to put Forge on the bottom of the library with Banishing Stroke but they didn't. The main reason I wanted to was to be able to destroy their stuff. Unfortunately, they waited a bit too long and then ended up exiling it with Utter End which ended up still allowing Saheeli to kill them. In their defense, they did so at my insistence, but they did still die with the Stroke in hand so I think there was a lot more the table could have done if the Forge was gone earlier (I was holding onto a Windgrace's Judgement for a while).
Getting rid of the Forge though did allow the rest of us to kind of gang up on Saheeli and eventually whittle them down. Tawnos was instrumental in letting me cast my stuff at Instant Timing so I could get creatures out when I needed them and continue to ramp as well. Eventually, I got Ulvenwald Hydra and Chainer, Dementia Master with a couple other creatures and was able to just keep bringing things back for value. I think I got Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar so I just kept beating down.
The game wasn't actually that fun. Part of it was the explosive start Saheeli had (this seems to be becoming more and more common) which turned the game into Archenemy, and the other part was just grinding it out for 45 minutes after Animatou was out of the game so they basically didn't get to play much at all.
The only thing I really got out of either game is that Sadistic Sacrament may not be doing what I want it too. I had it in hand almost all of the first game and never cast it since Saheeli already got to the Forge. I am not sure what I want to do with it; I still want the effect, but I have to deal with their stuff that is otherwise hard to deal with and Tuvasa is also playing Mass LD which I need to account for. I only have 2 main deck ways to instantly bounce back and another card can help once I get back to 4 lands. But, that is often going to be too slow.
A side note: if anyone ends up wanting to try Vanguard, do not play with Squee (and maybe exclude Sisay). Playing with Squee made that first game really unfun.
Also, I realize this site doesn't do card tags for Vanguard cards. I left them in case they ever add them. If you want to see them all, try here
What I kinda got out of it all was that Indestructible artifacts are a bit of an issue and that artifact ramp might be an issue.. If I am not mistaken on this? Hall of Gemstone might help vs multicolor decks a bit.. For artifact ramp and indestructible there are quite a few options in green that destroy artifacts.. Removing them there are still some options also.. Also there is Deglamer.. Wave of Vitriol might be an idea, although a bit slow I guess compared to the ramp of said deck.. Engineered Explosives might work vs low cost ramp.. playing it for 0 against someone with a lot of 0 mana artifacts for example can be done.. idk of course the exact cards you might need to get rid off.. In red there is Furnace Dragon for a bit of artifact hate.. Also quite slow though... Shattering spree is also a low end option vs artifact ramp..
Not sure if you wanna go all out on hating on that deck though.. Maybe try to find a good amount of answers while still maintaining your own decks plan..
I could see the Dragon being an option if it really gets out of hand. Maybe I would just just play my own Vandalblast if it becomes necessary. The dragon is expensive but actually works against indestructible. If only it didn't say "from your hand"
Wave is interesting. I generally avoid it since it blows up my lands but, in this deck, I can get them back, they are still replaced, and it works against 2 of the 3 decks at the table really well. I think of the suggestions above, I like this the most as it does the most and can still deal with a resolved Forge or Soul of New Phyrexia.
I am running Heroic Intervention for just this purpose. World Shaper is the other option to help rebuild. I don't want to go too far into a "protection plan" for this either, but Soul of New Phyrexian might be worth it if I find I really need the effect. Being a creature is important as well.
As I am thinking of it more, based on your suggestions, I am going to try Wave of Vitriol. I am also going to see if I can find a spot for Soul of New Phyrexia to just try out. I will cut Sadistic Sacrament for one of them as the main things I care about taking out of the opponent's libraries are answered with these 2 cards and these are better as they can be reactive. I am not sure what the other card would be yet.
I like this a lot actually. It can be gotten off of Protean Hulk, it is a big flyer which the deck needs, and it kind of "gets" the Lattice player for playing Lattice. They often don't have a lot of flyers so hitting with it shouldn't be that much trouble. I am going to give this a try.
Looking through my list, I found that Ruric Thar, The Scorpion God, and Sadistic Sacrament are the easiest cuts. Ruric Thar often did very little that actually mattered, The Scorpion God is too mana intensive to be really good, and Sacrament (as I mentioned above) doesn't work after the fact and it is tough to cast early. I am going to try those changes for now.
Ensuring that the Tyrant has haste is really important. Otherwise, it gets killed pretty much on sight by the Artifact player (if they can).
The Tyrant is the sole reason why I don't play Mycosynth Lattice in my Memnarch deck. My wife (who plays the Kaalia deck in my signature) tutored for it every time I cast it and stole my things. She even won of the trigger when she was able to remove my win condition in response to my going off. Salty doesn't even begin to describe my frustration with that sequence.
Here are my changes for this week in the league. I haven't posted a list of changes in a while since we skipped a week due to accidentally adding a week earlier on (we made changes on a Wednesday and Friday of the same week). Skipping a week got us back to a "once a week" change schedule. There are a lot of changes this week and I will go into more detail as to why below:
Regarding cuts, I don't want to go into a lot of detail around them. Basically, these are cards that I felt were not pulling their weight or were ones that were being essentially replaced with the additions.
Regarding additions it should be noted that I decided to up the land count back to 43. There are a variety of reasons for this but the biggest is that I want to ensure that I hit my land drops and that I can get enough to discard to Lord Windgrace. So far, it seems like it is working out a bit better.
Next, the changes that have been discussed in the last couple posts are here. Soul of New Phyrexia, Hellkite Tyrant, Wave of Vitriol, and Toxic Deluge have been added. The reasons for each have been discussed prior to this but basically Soul helps protect against LD, Tyrant and Wave deals with indestructible artifacts (Wave is also good against the Enchantment deck), and Deluge works against indestructible creatures.
The biggest change shown above is a philosophical change to the approach of this deck. One of the earliest suggestions from dachivale was to add Jokulhaups due to the synergy of that card with the rest of the deck. I am still opposed to mass LD but the problem I am seeing is that I seem to be the only one in the group with that mindset. This means that as I add more and more cards to work around this eventuality, I still have to worry about at least 2 other people blowing up my lands. The Aminatou player has yet to add anything to do it but their desire is clear based on card choices in other decks they play. For example, Keldon Firebombers and Magus of the Balance show up in other decks they have. And none of my "protection" protects against sacrifice effects like this.
So, rather than continue to fight the direction this is moving in and leaving myself always on the back foot playing with the fear that I need to constantly worry about whether someone is going to blow up lands, I have decided to alter my card choices to play into this a bit more. As the old saying goes: "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". So, I am joining them and I am trying to do so in a way that makes my mass LD much better than theirs or at least with other card choices that makes it asymmetrical. Essentially, I want to be able to destroy lands when it benefits me or when I can account for it so that I am the only one left with lands. The best way to stop my opponents from destroying my lands is to destroy theirs first so they can't do it.
These changes are strictly for this League and, once we are done with it, these cards will be removed. It is still not a playstyle I enjoy and this effectively means this deck will be played very little outside of the league. But, for now, I am going to try to beat them at their own game. Here are the 4 I added as I want to go into a bit more detail on each:
Jokulhaups - The original suggestion dachivale made. This works well in that it gets rid of artifact mana and lands in addition to creatures. The latter is important as it lets my World Shaper trigger immediately. This means that someone cannot have a Tormod's Crypt or other graveyard hate artifact (Saheeli has a lot) to prevent me from getting my lands back. Since their stuff is destroyed at the same time, the best they can hope for is to exile my graveyard before the lands from the field hit the graveyard to try to give me fewer lands back. This also gives me more of an opportunity to float mana for Splendid Reclamation to get my lands back.
Obliterate - Obliterate is almost identical to the above reasoning with the added bonus of not being able to be countered. Now, these cards work best with World Shaper since Splendid Reclamation can still be countered. But, the risk is worth being able to take out my opponents at a time more convenient for me while also destroying the board.
Decree of Annihilation - This one is an Instant timing way of blowing up lands, it is (generally) uncounterable, and can be used for its full cost if I absolutely need to reset the game by getting rid of everything. Casting the card is likely to be done infrequently to the point where it probably won't ever happen, but having the option of exiling everything is still worthwhile. If I end up staring down a lethal threat next turn and I have no actual answers, I would definitely just set everyone back to nothing to ensure I don't die. I will likely still lose any game I do that in of course since I won't have many lands left in my library, but I would do it.
Boil - This I decided to add to give me a little more impact in the earlier game to help slow down my opponents. All 3 of them run blue and getting rid of their blue (or, at least, most of it) can help prevent them from countering my things, it can slow them down a little (not as much for Tuvasa since they are centered in Green) and still play into the LD aspect. It is likely this doesn't survive very long as all 3 decks have non-Island blue sources but that is why I want to use it as more of a turn 5 or 6 play rather than a turn 8-10 play as the others are meant to be. It is not meant to hurt them as much; it it just meant to make it really difficult to continue building. By the time I need something more powerful, I should hopefully have it and it should be tougher for them to stop me if I get rid of their early blue mana. That is the thought anyway.
So, we will see how much this changes the deck and we will see what impact this has on the meta (if any) with trying to add in more MLD than my opponents. The biggest thing for me is whether my current cards can still get me to a point where I can consistently make these effects asymmetrical. Lord Windgrace himself is the best way to do this and it may introduce a situation where I try to cast a MLD spell every 4-5 turns just because Windgrace and other cards can help me rebuild faster. It will be interesting to see how far I can go with this.
My second league night happened over the weekend, and I ended up playing somewhat of an archenemy role. In the first game, I had a T3 Lord thanks to a Sol Ring, and Omnath, Locus of Rage provided a lot of bodies. World Breaker was also useful in hitting a Darksteel Forge.
However, I was a bit troubled by the fact that all three of my opponents said that they would be bringing more grave hate in with their next round of changes. I'm not too sure how this deck will fare against that sort of thing, specifically against the likes of Rest in Peace from the Bant player, and Relic of Progenitus from the Saheeli player. Any ideas?
I actually deal with a fair amount of grave hate in my meta (mostly from Saheeli as well) and I have gotten to the point where I play around it in game. I don't really do anything specific in deck building to account for it (I use Entomb and 2 Eldrazi in Karador to protect my graveyard) so it comes down to just not overextending in Windgrace. Bane of Progress helps kill any relevant artifacts and enchantments before you need to start working with your graveyard.
You could always use something like Elixir of Immortality to shuffle things back in.
I have only played one game with my changes above and I think I need to play a little tighter with the MLD package. I ended up blowing up all lands once with Decree of Annihilation with Lord Windgrace on board, but Aminatou bounced him (and everything else with Cyclonic Rift which meant I couldn't rebuild as I wanted. The game dragged on and eventually Aminatou tutored for Debt to the Deathless (again) and killed 1 player and got me down to 4. I tried to gain life with Miren but they countered it with Summary Dismissal so I ended up losing that game.
Basically, I think there is something to be said about being a bit more patient with the MLD and paying more attention to Aminatou (in particular). They are probably the biggest threat to disrupting my plans when blowing up all lands as they can counter Decree and exile Obliterate (both done with Summary Dismissal) and can bounce things in response to make it tougher for me to rebuild.
I have decided to finally add Glacial Chasm as dachivale suggested. There are too many scenarios I have been in where this would have helped me that I think it it time to ad it. And, since I am back up to 43 lands (still a number that is in flux) I don't think I am hurt a lot by including a land that can't tap for mana.
I ended up just cutting Rocky Tar Pit. I find that these fetches are slow enough to be causing issues and I would rather not run them at all. In time, I will end up finding room (and the budget) for real fetches but for now, I am going to cut the two I have. I have started with this one since it can't get green which makes it slightly worse than the other one.
I also added a tutor and went with Diabolic Intent. It is cheap (mana cost and money) and lets me get to what I need when I need it. I will eventually add Vampiric Tutor or Demonic Tutor My current budget allows for either to be added next week and 2 tutors can help with the consistency of the deck. I don't think I need all 3 right now, but maybe in the future. As a cut for Intent, I decided to get rid of Borborygmos Enraged. It is an odd choice, but I am finding that with my ramp and a few other things, I rarely have lands in hand to pitch to Borborygmos. As I am trying to move into a different style of deck, he just doesn't do as much anymore.
I could see adding in Dosan at some point. I prefer my cards to be creatures in this case since the biggest reason for them is flashing them in (though Dosan shuts that down) and it is easier to get creatures at Instant timing than enchantments. The main reason is to shut down Blue though which a Strip Mine package (along with Boil) can also do so I might just lean on that for the time being.
Chasm and lifeloss: I did realize this (which makes it useless against Debt to the Deathless) but I don't think I have ever been killed directly by that card; it is always a creature swinging in after the fact so Chasm helps me survive the aftermath.
Obliterate: Yep, the only "counter" that anyone runs that can stop it is Summary Dismissal. Which is also the only one that anyone has that stops Decree. They have to have that exact card to stop it so I am not too worried about that right now. If people start adding the others, I might try to work out something more. Maybe Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast.
The main issue (right now anyway) with Strip Mine and Wasteland is the cost. Strip Mine is just above $18 and Wasteland is above $31. Neither easily fits into the budget. However, this does bring up a good observation about the deck: I don't have the cards to really support that package but I should. Excavator should be in the deck. Crucible is questionable due to how much Artifact hate I run. Though, Crucible has come down and is likely as low as it is going to be for a while so if I were to add it, now would be the time. Excavator is just good in general.
So, after thinking about it (I changed this response a couple times) I have decided to add in Ramunap Excavator and Strip Mine to see if I can use this as part of the overall LD package. Crucible is on the back burner for now as I am not sure about it (and I really want other things first anyway). Luckily, I had some extra money in the budget from not making changes one week and making less than $20 worth of changes a couple other weeks that I was barely able to squeeze these in. I ended up with $2.58 left for the week:
I already explained Mountain Valley above and Gearhulk is gone for now to a) lower my curve and b) because I have other creature destruction spells. The lack of lifegain may hurt so it might come back later.
I played two games with this deck tonight. Our 4th for the League was not in so we has Tuvasa replaced with a Sliver player.
The first game started off reasonably well. I got Windgrace down kind on time but the Sliver player was getting a little out of control. I eventually drew into a World Shaper and a turn or 2 after this the Saheeli player tried to Blasphemous Act. In response, I attempted to cycle Decree of Annihilation knowing that B. Act would kill the World Shaper so I would just get my lands back. However, the Aminatou player decided to cast Evacuation so I just destroyed all lands without being able to get them back.
It got to my turn and I played a land and activated Lord Windgrace. I activated Wingrace again next turn and cast World Shaper. One of the lands I had was High Market so I was able to sac World Shaper to get all my lands back anyway. From there, we all rebuilt pretty well but I was still ahead of my opponents. Unfortunately, the Aminatou player cast Approach of the Second Sun. I couldn't do much to stop it so, after they tried to Windfall the following turn, I activated my Fertilid to force them to shuffle.
Seeing as I had no real defense against an Approach if they ever drew into it again, I ended up getting to the point of discarding Soul of New Phyrexia with Windgrace, tutoring with Diabolic Intent and then activating Soul and casting Obliterate the same turn. This left me very far ahead and I was able to just coast to victory from here with a few creatures.
The second game actually started off a bit rough. I had 3 lands in hand, one of which was Glacial Chasm but I had Yavimaya Elder in hand. Luckily I drew into lands but it took a couple turns to get my second green source. I ended up doing a few things before Lord Windgrace but I got him dropped down eventually.
This time, we were going back and forth with some mass wraths or bounce from Aminatou but I found my chance when the Aminatou player tried to Time Reversal. I responded with Heroic Intervention and they let it resolve. I then cycled Decree of Annihilation to set everyone back. At one point I also cast Wave of Vitriol which set back Saheeli, got rid of some important artifacts from Aminatou and really messed with the Sliver player since they had very few basics.
A while later, I tutored for Strip Mine with Realms Uncharted. I used Strip Mine to keep Aminatou off Blue. I also had a World Breaker in this game to exile mana rocks and lands players had left. I ended up only using Strip Mine two or three times but I could have done more.
Ultimately, I just beat down with World Breaker and Multani.
In both games, the Sliver player commented that they were a turn away from either killing someone (game 1) or casting their own Jokulhaups (game 2) so the timing of the MLD was pretty well timed.
Overall, the new additions to the deck seem to be working very well. As mentioned before, there is definitely situations where the timing of MLD is important; simply slamming one is not going to work out and these games showed the better opportunities for doing so.
Btw. Watch out when casting Heroic Intervention, I have had mine get taken over by a blue player (Spelljack) in a game and with that my board got wiped and his got saved... I played mine in response to another player nuking everything with Jokulhaups... Mind you it was with my new Goreclaw deck though..
That's a good call. I did cast it once last night to just save a creature from being targeted and when I cast it for my own LD, I always do it first and make sure it resolves. However, Saheeli does play Spelljack so that would feel pretty bad to try to use in response to some sort of mass destruction just to have Saheeli reap the benefits
I played 2 games last night and ended up losing both. I shouldn't have lost the 2nd but I had a terrible misplay. Note, Saheeli changed over to Brudiclad.
The first game started off rocky and it took a long time to get to my black source. I cast Lord Windgrace and ticked him up and then ticked him down the next turn. Then, he died. That was the only time I used him. I had tried to play Last One Standing earlier which was countered. I needed it to go through since Brudiclad was getting out of control.
I could do basically nothing at this point since my hand had 3 or 4 cards in it that didn't do much. I basically just had to roll over and die from Brudiclad. I did eventually get a World Breaker out. I exiled Brudiclad's Vault of Catlacan. They swung at me with a ton of tokens and Brudiclad. I blocked and tried to cast Momentous Fall only to have Tuvasa counter it which killed me.
The second game went much better. I ramped with Sakura Tribe Elder and Phyrexian Reclamation for a while. I got down Lord Windgrace late but the turn after I dropped him, I tried to Jokulhaups. Aminatou was tapped out and Brudiclad had 2 mana open. They ended up countering it.
In a turn or two, I got a Glacial Chasm off Ulvenwald Hydra and just get bringing back Realm Seekers to gain a bunch of life with Miren and Phyrexian Reclamation. Tuvasa then proceeded to drop an Avacyn and then Brudiclad copied it with Phyrexian Metamorph. So we had 2 Avacyns to deal with though I didn't care as much.
After Brudiclad gave everyone tokens from a Tempting Offer card, I let Glacial Chasm go to the grave, I attacked Aminatou to kill them, and then I got Ramunap Excavator to play the Chasm again. Two turns later, Brudiclad had 67 mana from a Vault of Catlacan because they had a bunch of tokens from the Tempting offer that they turned into Thopters. They tutored with Whir of Invention. I didn't know what they were going to get but I feared Memnarch so, while that was on the stack, I cast Rakdos Charm killing them and bringing Tuvasa down to 21. I got to my turn and just passed since I couldn't attack Tuvasa due to their 2 Sphere of Safety.
This is where my major misplay came in (though, I am going with the excuse that is was late since we were playing at 2:00 AM). I passed the turn instead of casting the Toxic Deluge in my hand. I needed to cast the deluge because they had a Grand Abolisher on the field. So, when it got to their turn, they cast Open the Vaults and got back Fall of the Thran. I not only had Crop Rotation in hand to get Bojuka Bog, I also had Heroic Intervention in hand. Two cards that would have likely won me the game and I couldn't cast either one of them. It was dumb on my part and so Tuvasa got a well deserved win.
On a side note, we are looking to end this league and start up a new one with 2 color combinations. We will use the things we learned with this one to try to make the other one a bit more fair and balanced across all decks. That means that in a week or two, I will be updating the list here to add in some of the cards I don't have yet (mostly lands) as well as taking out the MLD package.
I have also been getting down a little on Omnath so I may ended up cutting it to make the curve lower and give me something I can play a little earlier. I am not sure what that is going to be though.
My suggestions for removal are Seedguide Ash, Protean Hulk (what does it even do for you?), Phyrexian Plaguelord. Maybe even Lavalanche.
Suggestions against lifegain:
Tainted Cure is pretty funny. So is Everlasting Torment, and Witch Hunt. I like Havoc Festival most though.
Archfiend of Despair is a new one and a threat.
Rampaging Ferocidon is banned in Standard so it might be worth a try.
Suggestions for threats:
Considering your high creature count, and your opponents being izzet and esper, I would highly suggest Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. You would not believe how quickly the damage racks up.
Primordial Hydra also comes to mind as a way to utilize the absurd amount of mana you can make. Not to mention there are hydras that split into tokens when they die, or give you life and cards, or even Genesis Wave. I would consider pumping your mana into a Timmy creature and seeing how it turns out.
Another suggestion - The Scorpion God. Good body, can draw you cards and kill creatures, and difficult to kill completely.
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - the body is probably not amazing but still seems ok. Throwing Multani and Rubblehulk into your opponents' faces is probably a great moment, and he should be very easy for you to recur, so he will also be a persistent problem for your opponents.
Sepulchral Primordial - if all else fails. Your opponents are bound to have something interesting lurking around and this is a great way to steal it for yourself.
Sorry for the wall of text - I'm on mobile.
I have already commented on my reasons for Protean Hulk the last time you made the comment about "what does it do for you?". I am willing to discuss the merits of those reasons. But, as there is no further evolution of the discussion around this card, there is no reason to just reiterate my reasons I have already stated.
I assume you mean False Cure? That is interesting, but is a one-shot. I would rather find either permanent-based ways of dealing with the lifegain or just work to prevent them from casting the lifegain spell to begin with.
Archfiend of Despair is probably the best option here but being 8 mana is a real downside. I can keep it in the back of my mind though Erebos is likely to be the most of what I need. Time will tell.
The rest of the options hurt me more than they help. I don't care if the Aminatou player can't gain life if I can't either. After all, them making me lose 15-30 life with those spells will likely spell my death before I can do anything with the fact that they didn't gain life off of them. My life gain is the only reason I have been able to stay in some games as it is.
Interesting. I like this option,
though against the Izzet player it isn't going to do all that much. They are pretty heavily creature focused. (Re-thinking this: though they have a lot of creatures, they do have quite a few noncreatures they cast on their way to building their board). It would do a lot against the Bant player though. This is one I might have to keep my eyes on and I will have to evaluate how much it hurts me as I have a fair number of noncreature spells too.I don't like Primordial Hydra as it doesn't do a lot beyond just being a threat (it is hard to block though). However, your comments remind me that Lifeblood Hydra exists. This is a great card in Karador and there is no reason to think this would not work just as well in Lord Windgrace. That solves a lot of problems for me in that I can gain a bunch of life as well as refill my hand.
I am not a huge fan due to the intensive mana cost to actually draw a card (very few creatures will be 1 toughness). However, as you mentioned Plaguelord up above, this good make a more useful replacement for that. I like the idea of the God though (especially being hard to kill). I might have to slot this one in too.
Hmm...interesting. This is a card that I have seen do a lot of work in other types of builds so I never gave him much thought in this. Flinging a creature seems pretty good. Plus his activated ability can be a benefit with something like Ob Nixilis on the board with a Splendid reclamation in hand as it lets me sac a bunch of Swamps and Forests to then, eventually, get landfall triggers.
Other than the Saheeli player, I am unlikely to hit much very often with this. Tuvasa has generally smaller creatures and Aminatou doesn't have a lot of creatures either (though they have big fliers). I am not sure this is what I want to be spending 7 mana on.
Overall, there are very good suggestions in here so I will have to see what I can do, or want to do, to get some of these added.
I would try out the Archfiend anyway, since Wound Reflection is a pretty damn good effect to have on a giant beater.
I guess I see your points about swapping the mass removals, however Acidic Slime just takes care of so much stuff. I would consider removing the Naturalize with Strive instead. If you find that mass noncreatures are too much of a problem, perhaps you should try something like Wave of Vitriol instead.
EDIT: I also wanted to suggest Mogis, God of Slaughter. Gradually taxes your opponents and can accumulate a bunch of damage - your opponents also seem like they don't have a lot of tokens to sac to his ability.
Those aren't bad but they are not really "budget" so I would have to save up to include these for our league. Edge isn't too bad, but Strip Mine is $15 and Wasteland is even more. I might do more with this in the future though.
This isn't bad, but it just leads to a "combo" kill with Ob Nixilis, the Fallen and works a little too well with Gitrog. I like the idea, but based on my experience with my Gitrog deck, adding this creates a situation where that is what I would try to do fairly often and it becomes boring.
Yeah, 8 mana is a little too high and easily dies, especially to my own Bane of Progress.
This is literally the first card I added to the deck Once we are done with the League, Diamond Valley will make it in too.
I definitely hadn't thought of this so I may need to determine if this effect is good enough to make the cut.
I am finding I don't often have a huge army anymore. I think if I kept Avenger and Baloths this would be a reasonable card. The suggestion is good and if I move back towards adding those cards, this might make it in too.
6 mana is a lot and I really need to get it out early and have it survive. I am not sure if it would ever survive long enough to do what I want it to.
Not sure these are good enough, but the Gladehart is probably what I would go with. Again, not sure this is what I want but I like the idea (I know the Retreat had been mentioned before too) so I may pick them up just in case.
I understand the reluctance of cutting Acidic Slime but it has been caught in my hand more times than I am comfortable with. Maybe once the decks eveolve further or once the League is done, it might find its way back in. As of now, it is doing very little and I like World Breaker in the slot (even though it is 2 mana more) for a variety of reasons.
Mogis on the other hand has some decent applications. It is a (slow) win con, it survives most of the wraths the meta uses (basically it gets got by Merciless Eviction, Forsake the Worldly, and Return to Dust). It is a big creature when I get it turned on and swinging for 7 is nothing to scoff at. As you alluded to above, the Tuvasa and Aminatou players will rarely have anything they want to sac to it so they will take 2. Saheeli always has tokens, but at least it can keep said tokens in check for a little while. I picked a Mogis up and I will see if I can slot it into the deck next week (I have spent my budget this week since I really want Winding Canyons in the deck).
Speaking of which, here is where I am currently at with potential changes. This has changed a few times as our current conversation has gone on and has changed while I attempt to stick to our weekly budget. I have about $30 this week since I had carry over from last week. These are subject to change as our changes are not actually made until Saturday, so I might change my mind on a few things (probably Winding Canyons since it takes so much of my budget):
ADDS
CUTS
Most of these have already been discussed in the past few posts, so I don't want to go over them again now. Once I make my final changes on Saturday, I will go into more detail on each as to why I made those changes.
CUTS
Acidic Slime
Agent of Erebos
Burnished Hart
Chain Reaction
Lavalanche
Greater Good
Rubblehulk
Seedguide Ash
Skyshroud Claim
Turntimber Sower
ADDS
Comet Storm $0.53
Erebos, God of the Dead $8.05
Lifeblood Hydra $1.53
Mogis, God of Slaughter $4.93
Pernicious Deed $2.46
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed $0.32
Sadistic Sacrament $1.49
The Scorpion God $1.23
Thrashing Brontodon $0.99
World Breaker $3.07
Basically, I cut a few lower impact creatures:
Acidic Slime - For a number of reasons, World Breaker fits better in this slot and gives me a bigger body and a relevant ability.
Agent of Erebos - I have Bojuka Bog and 2 Instants that can exile graveyards
Burnished Hart and Seedguide Ash - cutting down a little on ramp
Rubblehulk - This was a tough one, but I found that I rarely cared about the "trick" it allows and it is just chump blocked as a creature. I am going to try some time without it to see if I miss it.
Turntimber Sower - I mentioned earlier that I wanted to cut this before now, but the interaction with Borborygmos led me to keeping it a bit longer. I don't think it is really working out after a few more of my changes. Ultimately, I may try to get Life from the Loam in this slot.
And, here are the noncreatures I cut:
Chain Reaction and Lavalanche - I am cutting down a little on the wraths and, as a wrath, Lavalanche is not very good. It works as a kill spell which I didn't want to lose but I feel Comet Storm is just much better. Chain Reaction is replaced with Pernicious Deed as a "better" kill spell.
Greater Good - I really like this card, but I have been finding that I don't often need it. I fairly often am able to keep my hand full as it is and Lifeblood Hydra, the Scorpion God, and Erebos help in this regard too.
Skyshroud Claim - Of the noncreature ramp, this is probably the "worst". It is still really good, but I do feel I have gone a bit overboard on ramp, so this is the one I want to cut for now.
Now, the new cards are ones that either fill in some gaps, add to my threats, or offer more utility in my game plan (or a combination of these). One thing to comment on is that I decided to push out the addition of Winding Canyons. Not only does it take a fair amount of the weekly budget, it also is less relevant than some of the other additions. I am hoping to get this added in next week as I do think it gives me a way to come out of nowhere with a win. So, here are my thoughts on the additions:
Comet Storm - A better kill spell and a removal spell in a pinch. I have a lot of mana at my disposal so I can see this being very good in the late game.
Erebos, God of the Dead - This is anti-life gain for my opponents as well as card draw. The life payment might be a concern, but I am hoping the Hydra can offset this a little.
Lifeblood Hydra - Speaking of the Hydra: this gives me life gain and card draw stapled to a big body. The fact that it has Trample is extremely relevant as a threat and can be used to keep me in the game or get me back in.
Mogis, God of Slaughter - This gives me a big indestructible body that also has an incremental effect as the game wears on. This could keep players in check with their creatures or slowly dwindle their life total to make it easier for the rest of my threats to finish the job.
Pernicious Deed - A replacement for one of the wraths above that can take out a lot of things. This is more relevant against Tuvasa as my current wraths have a problem dealing with the Totem Armors and auras that grant indestructible. This doesn't kill the creatures any better but it gets rid of all the auras instead of just one Totem Armor.
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed - This is probably the biggest "risk/reward" card I am adding. It can deal a lot of damage to everyone, but that includes me. I will have to see how much damage I end up taking from him compared to the amount of damage dealt to everyone else.
Sadistic Sacrament - This has a number of uses. Mainly, it gets Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless so I don't have to worry about them. The other players are also starting to go more in on Combos so this can help break those up before they can get them on the board. I am hoping this becomes extremely impactful against the others and, if it does, I will likely add in Greenwarden of Murasa as another way to get it back.
The Scorpion God - This is card draw, threat, and removal all in one. None of these things separately are all that great on this card since the draw and removal parts are expensive and the Threat is somewhat easily dealt with. But, combined, it can make for a potent package (or, so I am hoping).
Thrashing Brontodon - This is another replacement for Acidic Slime but is one that can deal with a Torpor Orb. Needing to sacrifice it can be useful as it gives me an easy way to get it back with my Recursion.
World Breaker - A big body with an ability that lets me recur it that is generally not much of a drawback (it could be hard to activate for now, but even one use is decent) and an ability that lets me permanently get rid of annoying artifacts and enchantments.
Overall, this cuts me down on ramp, increases threats, and replaces removal with cards that are hopefully more relevant and better suited for the game plan this deck wants to be employing. I will end up playing this list next week so I will provide some updates then.
Game 2 was awful. I stalled on mana early and didn't have the ramp I needed to do much. I dropped a Pernicious Deed around turn 7 and activated it to blow most of the board. From there, I did basically nothing. Tuvasa dropped an Enchanted Evening so everything was an Enchantment. I was actively looking for a Bane of Progress just to say I did it but it would have made the game go on forever so it is probably best I didn't get it. In any case, I got beat down with creatures from Saheeli and Tuvasa was huge from all their enchantments and they had their creature that made her unblockable. So, I really had no change without my Bane of Progress. Even blowing up Enchanted Evening at that time probably wouldn't have been enough.
Tuvasa ended up winning that game pretty handily.
All in all, it is tough to say whether certain cuts (or additions for that matter) made a difference. Having Acidic Slime may have helped but World Breaker did some work that second game too. I did have a misplay where I should have gotten World Breaker back from my graveyard and exiled Enchanted Evening but due to the fact that they could give stuff trample and make it unblockable, I didn't have just 1 target to deal with to save me. In any case, I didn't feel that there was any time in either game where a card I cut was the card I needed in that scenario.
The main additions that did anything were World Breaker and Lifeblood Hydra. Brontodon was good as insurance just sitting on the board so I like that over Slime. Ruric Thar did come down in game 2 and essentially just cost Aminatou 6 life to deal with it. Saheeli then exiled it with Mimic Vat so that didn't help things from my end. Eating removal early is kind of expected so I will have to see how often that happens. If he gets on the board and just dies, it probably isn't worth it.
I also got The Scorpion God and it drew me 1 card by killing an opponent's creature. I also got in for 6 damage once before it was exiled to a Duplicant. I did find that when I had it, it was almost never the right play to use the ability. When I did draw a card, it was because I was able to activate it twice to kill something. But, 6 mana to kill a creature and draw a card is not very efficient. I am not sure how long he sticks around, but I am willing to keep him around for a while longer.
I am mostly happy with the changes made so far with Ruric Thar and The Scorpion God being the most disappointing. That is not to say they are bad but, of the cards I added, these seem the weakest so far. Time will tell if they come into their own.
I have already looked at the next round of additions. I do have a bit of carryover that I could use to add these right away (I don't think our group ever got to a consensus on whether we can constantly make changes throughout the week or only one time at the beginning of the week) so I will see if I add them before Friday or not. As of now, here are the cards I am thinking of adding:
Chainer, Dementia Master - I would cut Stitch Together for Chainer. This gives me an Instant way of reanimating crucial creatures. The main issue is having the black mana when I need it. I want to eventually add Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth anyway, but the current budget doesn't allow for it (unless I spend an entire week's budget on it). Even without it, I can see this being useful anyway, so I think I am going to add him.
Spike Weaver - Pretty much 75% of win conditions are combat damage focused so having a creature form of Fog ensures I should have a way to prevent damage. It also gives me a way to stop an alpha strike by getting it off Protean Hulk.
Realm Seekers - This is something that gives me a big creature. But, more importantly, it keeps my hand full of lands for Lord Windgrace and Borborygmos. It also gets me utility lands such as High Market and Miren. Since World Breaker can only come back with colorless mana, it becomes more important for me to have a colorless mana source. And those two lands are ones I want to have anyway.
Ulvenwald Hydra - I am not sure on this but it a) gets me a "free" land b) gives me a big creature to either attack with or sacrifice to Miren for a bunch of life and c) gives me a Reach creature to block incoming flyers. Overall, there is a fair amount of utility in this card.
Life from the Loam - This is the most questionable one for now mostly just because I don't have "real" fetches. But, it works to get me discarded lands back and lets me ensure I hit my land drops while also drawing cards off Lord Windgrace. The main issue with this for now is that it takes a lot of the budget for the week and I am not sure I want to use it on this yet.
I like the idea of Glacial Chasm as a goiitcha card (especially with Crop Rotation). The biggest thing right now is that neither taps for mana and I never want to see either one early. I think eventually I will include one of them (not both; it will probably be the Chasm since I don't use it as much as I should).
Strip Mine is another card in my list of cards to get but a) it is expensive (a lot more than I thought) and b) my group, even outside this league, doesn't do a lot with really good non basics (other than me) so there aren't as many good targets. But yeah, Life from the Loam needs to be in this deck at some point. I have almost added it twice but cost and lack of good targets has me delaying the add for now. Once I get my fetches added(probably next year some time), this will get added too.
Ooze needs to be in this deck at some point I think. Living Death is an interesting card and one that I don't do a lot with. I will have to keep it in the back of my mind. As for Eternal Witness, I got that added a couple weeks back because it is a fantastic card.
Overall, the deck is shaping up nicely and the games I have lost are more because I start slow. And by that I mean I have little ramp to start with or no real threats or answers. I think this is more of a Mulligan problem as I don't often like throwing away "could be good" hands. It also shines a light on the importance of balance in the deck regarding ramp. I have cut a few lately and I may have gone too far in that direction. The main issue is getting them late when they don't matter.
So, I enjoy the deck (and I appreciate all the suggestions/comments above) and, like any other deck, it has gotten to a point where "tuning" is the goal. Finding the right balance for everything and finding out what does and doesn't work.
It looks like we might be playing a few games tomorrow so I am going to try to keep track of the games a bit better so I can provide a decent summary of each. We also get to make changes for this week, so I will include whatever changes I make tomorrow along with whatever summary I decide to post.
CUTS
Mountain - I am still trying to find the right number of lands. I am going to go back down to 40 to see if that is right and a Mountain is the best land to cut.
Nesting Dragon - This is the one of the better "new" cards but I have been getting kind of down on it lately. If I don't get it out early enough, or I can't get a bunch of lands back, it just doesn't do a lot. With some more recent additions (Omnath is the biggest one) I think I can afford to cut this for now and see if the deck really cares about not having it. Mainly, the issue is that it doesn't do enough on its own so drawing it doesn't really put me ahead nor does it get me back in the game whereas other cards do (Realm Seekers and Ulvenwald get me Miren to gain a bunch of life; Omnath gives me a better army in the same situation; Borborygmos gives me Lightning Bolts. etc.)
Thantis, the Warweaver - This was tough. I really, really like this card. And, it may be a mistake, but a 5/5 Vigilance with Reach isn't that good. It does force everyone to attack but I have slowly been moving away from a "swarm" type of deck (I prefer attrition strategies for this type of deck) so making everyone attack doesn't do as much for me and leaves me fewer options for blockers when I need them.
ADDS
My reasons were already mentioned a few posts up so I won't go into any detail on them here
Chainer, Dementia Master $2.75
Realm Seekers $0.25
Ulvenwald Hydra $1.25
CUTS
Temur Sabertooth
Mountain
ADDS
Winding Canyons
Spike Weaver
Temur Sabertooth was not doing as much as I wanted it to. Beyond ramp, the deck doesn't have a lot of ETB effects so I figured it was safe to cut. Spike Weaver took its place. Winding Canyons took the place of a Mountain.
We played two games tonight, but one isn't worth going into too much detail about. The Tuvasa player wasn't there so another player playing Slivers was there instead. The first game started off with Saheeli getting a Darksteel Forge on turn 4, followed by a Mycosynth Lattice later (and maybe a copy of the Forge later). I wasn't doing much but I had a Pernicious Deed on board to threaten the destruction of everyone's lands (except Saheeli). After a couple turns, the Sliver player just cast Armageddon anyway. I played a land and passed. Saheeli blew up my land and I just scooped. In the end, Saheeli ended up winning.
The second game was much more of an actual game. I started off slow but got down some ramp with some removal. Saheeli again got two Forges, but not much else. It took a long time to do anything with them. In the meantime, they got their Lattice and tried to Vandalblast. Luckily, Aminatou countered it. Aminatou had a tough game, but was able to Merciless Eviction the Slivers (at the time, they were a huge threat). I was able to cast World Breaker 3 or 4 times that game to exile the Saheeli's 2 Forges and I tried to get rid of the Lattice. They bounced it and I ended up casting Putrefy next turn.
I ended up winning with a huge Multani and a 28/28 Realm Seekers took out the Slivers player. The final play of the game was flashing in a World Breaker to exile a Noxious Gearhulk and then flashing in Eternal Witness to grab my Gaze of Granite. This let me cast Gaze on my turn to wrath the Aminatou's 8 Angel tokens so I could swing for lethal.
Winding Canyons was huge in this game and actually got blown up twice but I kept getting it back. It was instrumental in being able to do things at the right time to win the game.
So, we played 2 games last night. I am not going to go into much detail on either one, but I want to get the second game out of the way since it was awful:
Saheeli has Crovax
Aminatou had Ashnod
Tuvasa had Ertai
And I had Oracle
Because of my Vanguard card, I started the game with 10 cards in hand and 49 life. I started with 2 lands in hand and Wood Elves and Farhaven Elf. I figured that I had already dug 10 deep so I was bound to draw another land in the top 3 cards. I was wrong. I drew my third land on turn 5 or 6 and it was a Canyon Slough so it entered tapped. I untapped and cast Pernicious Deed solely because the Saheeli player cast Mycosynth Lattice. Unfortunately, they had a Darksteel Forge out as well. They had a massive board already compared to everyone else who really had nothing (and I skipped 3 turns already). They came after me and I blew up the Deed for 0 to destroy everyone's lands. I scooped after that.
It was a bit petty as the others maybe could have done something, but I was a bit agitated that in 16 cards, I drew 3 lands. I just wanted the game to end at that point.
The first game was a little better but not by much. That game, in regards to Vanguards, was:
Saheeli has Squee
Aminatou had Hanna
Tuvasa had Eladamri
And I had Tawnos
Saheeli again ramped out a lot of stuff and got to a Sharding Sphinx, Darksteel Forge, Combustible Gearhulk, and Soul of New Phyrexia. This was around turn 7 or 8. Saheeli went after Animatou quite a bit. I tried a couple times to convince Animatou to put Forge on the bottom of the library with Banishing Stroke but they didn't. The main reason I wanted to was to be able to destroy their stuff. Unfortunately, they waited a bit too long and then ended up exiling it with Utter End which ended up still allowing Saheeli to kill them. In their defense, they did so at my insistence, but they did still die with the Stroke in hand so I think there was a lot more the table could have done if the Forge was gone earlier (I was holding onto a Windgrace's Judgement for a while).
Getting rid of the Forge though did allow the rest of us to kind of gang up on Saheeli and eventually whittle them down. Tawnos was instrumental in letting me cast my stuff at Instant Timing so I could get creatures out when I needed them and continue to ramp as well. Eventually, I got Ulvenwald Hydra and Chainer, Dementia Master with a couple other creatures and was able to just keep bringing things back for value. I think I got Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar so I just kept beating down.
The game wasn't actually that fun. Part of it was the explosive start Saheeli had (this seems to be becoming more and more common) which turned the game into Archenemy, and the other part was just grinding it out for 45 minutes after Animatou was out of the game so they basically didn't get to play much at all.
The only thing I really got out of either game is that Sadistic Sacrament may not be doing what I want it too. I had it in hand almost all of the first game and never cast it since Saheeli already got to the Forge. I am not sure what I want to do with it; I still want the effect, but I have to deal with their stuff that is otherwise hard to deal with and Tuvasa is also playing Mass LD which I need to account for. I only have 2 main deck ways to instantly bounce back and another card can help once I get back to 4 lands. But, that is often going to be too slow.
A side note: if anyone ends up wanting to try Vanguard, do not play with Squee (and maybe exclude Sisay). Playing with Squee made that first game really unfun.
Also, I realize this site doesn't do card tags for Vanguard cards. I left them in case they ever add them. If you want to see them all, try here
Wave is interesting. I generally avoid it since it blows up my lands but, in this deck, I can get them back, they are still replaced, and it works against 2 of the 3 decks at the table really well. I think of the suggestions above, I like this the most as it does the most and can still deal with a resolved Forge or Soul of New Phyrexia.
I am running Heroic Intervention for just this purpose. World Shaper is the other option to help rebuild. I don't want to go too far into a "protection plan" for this either, but Soul of New Phyrexian might be worth it if I find I really need the effect. Being a creature is important as well.
As I am thinking of it more, based on your suggestions, I am going to try Wave of Vitriol. I am also going to see if I can find a spot for Soul of New Phyrexia to just try out. I will cut Sadistic Sacrament for one of them as the main things I care about taking out of the opponent's libraries are answered with these 2 cards and these are better as they can be reactive. I am not sure what the other card would be yet.
Thanks
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Looking through my list, I found that Ruric Thar, The Scorpion God, and Sadistic Sacrament are the easiest cuts. Ruric Thar often did very little that actually mattered, The Scorpion God is too mana intensive to be really good, and Sacrament (as I mentioned above) doesn't work after the fact and it is tough to cast early. I am going to try those changes for now.
The Tyrant is the sole reason why I don't play Mycosynth Lattice in my Memnarch deck. My wife (who plays the Kaalia deck in my signature) tutored for it every time I cast it and stole my things. She even won of the trigger when she was able to remove my win condition in response to my going off. Salty doesn't even begin to describe my frustration with that sequence.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
CUTS
Blasphemous Act
Consign to Dust
Grapple With the Past
Into the Core
Jund Charm
Phyrexian Plaguelord
Ruric Thar the Unbowed
Sadistic Sacrament
Stitch Together
The Scorpion God
Wildest Dreams
ADDS
Boil $0.29
Decree of Annihilation $1.69
Forest $0.04
Hellkite Tyrant $6.49
Jokulhaups $2.77
Mountain $0.04
Obliterate $1.49
Soul of New Phyrexia $0.79
Swamp $0.04
Toxic Deluge $15.11
Wave of Vitriol $0.44
Regarding cuts, I don't want to go into a lot of detail around them. Basically, these are cards that I felt were not pulling their weight or were ones that were being essentially replaced with the additions.
Regarding additions it should be noted that I decided to up the land count back to 43. There are a variety of reasons for this but the biggest is that I want to ensure that I hit my land drops and that I can get enough to discard to Lord Windgrace. So far, it seems like it is working out a bit better.
Next, the changes that have been discussed in the last couple posts are here. Soul of New Phyrexia, Hellkite Tyrant, Wave of Vitriol, and Toxic Deluge have been added. The reasons for each have been discussed prior to this but basically Soul helps protect against LD, Tyrant and Wave deals with indestructible artifacts (Wave is also good against the Enchantment deck), and Deluge works against indestructible creatures.
The biggest change shown above is a philosophical change to the approach of this deck. One of the earliest suggestions from dachivale was to add Jokulhaups due to the synergy of that card with the rest of the deck. I am still opposed to mass LD but the problem I am seeing is that I seem to be the only one in the group with that mindset. This means that as I add more and more cards to work around this eventuality, I still have to worry about at least 2 other people blowing up my lands. The Aminatou player has yet to add anything to do it but their desire is clear based on card choices in other decks they play. For example, Keldon Firebombers and Magus of the Balance show up in other decks they have. And none of my "protection" protects against sacrifice effects like this.
So, rather than continue to fight the direction this is moving in and leaving myself always on the back foot playing with the fear that I need to constantly worry about whether someone is going to blow up lands, I have decided to alter my card choices to play into this a bit more. As the old saying goes: "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". So, I am joining them and I am trying to do so in a way that makes my mass LD much better than theirs or at least with other card choices that makes it asymmetrical. Essentially, I want to be able to destroy lands when it benefits me or when I can account for it so that I am the only one left with lands. The best way to stop my opponents from destroying my lands is to destroy theirs first so they can't do it.
These changes are strictly for this League and, once we are done with it, these cards will be removed. It is still not a playstyle I enjoy and this effectively means this deck will be played very little outside of the league. But, for now, I am going to try to beat them at their own game. Here are the 4 I added as I want to go into a bit more detail on each:
Jokulhaups - The original suggestion dachivale made. This works well in that it gets rid of artifact mana and lands in addition to creatures. The latter is important as it lets my World Shaper trigger immediately. This means that someone cannot have a Tormod's Crypt or other graveyard hate artifact (Saheeli has a lot) to prevent me from getting my lands back. Since their stuff is destroyed at the same time, the best they can hope for is to exile my graveyard before the lands from the field hit the graveyard to try to give me fewer lands back. This also gives me more of an opportunity to float mana for Splendid Reclamation to get my lands back.
Obliterate - Obliterate is almost identical to the above reasoning with the added bonus of not being able to be countered. Now, these cards work best with World Shaper since Splendid Reclamation can still be countered. But, the risk is worth being able to take out my opponents at a time more convenient for me while also destroying the board.
Decree of Annihilation - This one is an Instant timing way of blowing up lands, it is (generally) uncounterable, and can be used for its full cost if I absolutely need to reset the game by getting rid of everything. Casting the card is likely to be done infrequently to the point where it probably won't ever happen, but having the option of exiling everything is still worthwhile. If I end up staring down a lethal threat next turn and I have no actual answers, I would definitely just set everyone back to nothing to ensure I don't die. I will likely still lose any game I do that in of course since I won't have many lands left in my library, but I would do it.
Boil - This I decided to add to give me a little more impact in the earlier game to help slow down my opponents. All 3 of them run blue and getting rid of their blue (or, at least, most of it) can help prevent them from countering my things, it can slow them down a little (not as much for Tuvasa since they are centered in Green) and still play into the LD aspect. It is likely this doesn't survive very long as all 3 decks have non-Island blue sources but that is why I want to use it as more of a turn 5 or 6 play rather than a turn 8-10 play as the others are meant to be. It is not meant to hurt them as much; it it just meant to make it really difficult to continue building. By the time I need something more powerful, I should hopefully have it and it should be tougher for them to stop me if I get rid of their early blue mana. That is the thought anyway.
So, we will see how much this changes the deck and we will see what impact this has on the meta (if any) with trying to add in more MLD than my opponents. The biggest thing for me is whether my current cards can still get me to a point where I can consistently make these effects asymmetrical. Lord Windgrace himself is the best way to do this and it may introduce a situation where I try to cast a MLD spell every 4-5 turns just because Windgrace and other cards can help me rebuild faster. It will be interesting to see how far I can go with this.
My second league night happened over the weekend, and I ended up playing somewhat of an archenemy role. In the first game, I had a T3 Lord thanks to a Sol Ring, and Omnath, Locus of Rage provided a lot of bodies. World Breaker was also useful in hitting a Darksteel Forge.
However, I was a bit troubled by the fact that all three of my opponents said that they would be bringing more grave hate in with their next round of changes. I'm not too sure how this deck will fare against that sort of thing, specifically against the likes of Rest in Peace from the Bant player, and Relic of Progenitus from the Saheeli player. Any ideas?
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
You could always use something like Elixir of Immortality to shuffle things back in.
Basically, I think there is something to be said about being a bit more patient with the MLD and paying more attention to Aminatou (in particular). They are probably the biggest threat to disrupting my plans when blowing up all lands as they can counter Decree and exile Obliterate (both done with Summary Dismissal) and can bounce things in response to make it tougher for me to rebuild.
In time, I am going to add Devastation
I have decided to finally add Glacial Chasm as dachivale suggested. There are too many scenarios I have been in where this would have helped me that I think it it time to ad it. And, since I am back up to 43 lands (still a number that is in flux) I don't think I am hurt a lot by including a land that can't tap for mana.
I ended up just cutting Rocky Tar Pit. I find that these fetches are slow enough to be causing issues and I would rather not run them at all. In time, I will end up finding room (and the budget) for real fetches but for now, I am going to cut the two I have. I have started with this one since it can't get green which makes it slightly worse than the other one.
I also added a tutor and went with Diabolic Intent. It is cheap (mana cost and money) and lets me get to what I need when I need it. I will eventually add Vampiric Tutor or Demonic Tutor My current budget allows for either to be added next week and 2 tutors can help with the consistency of the deck. I don't think I need all 3 right now, but maybe in the future. As a cut for Intent, I decided to get rid of Borborygmos Enraged. It is an odd choice, but I am finding that with my ramp and a few other things, I rarely have lands in hand to pitch to Borborygmos. As I am trying to move into a different style of deck, he just doesn't do as much anymore.
ADDS
Diabolic Intent $4.54
Glacial Chasm $3.59
CUTS
Borborygmos Enraged
Rocky Tar Pit
Chasm and lifeloss: I did realize this (which makes it useless against Debt to the Deathless) but I don't think I have ever been killed directly by that card; it is always a creature swinging in after the fact so Chasm helps me survive the aftermath.
Obliterate: Yep, the only "counter" that anyone runs that can stop it is Summary Dismissal. Which is also the only one that anyone has that stops Decree. They have to have that exact card to stop it so I am not too worried about that right now. If people start adding the others, I might try to work out something more. Maybe Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast.
The main issue (right now anyway) with Strip Mine and Wasteland is the cost. Strip Mine is just above $18 and Wasteland is above $31. Neither easily fits into the budget. However, this does bring up a good observation about the deck: I don't have the cards to really support that package but I should. Excavator should be in the deck. Crucible is questionable due to how much Artifact hate I run. Though, Crucible has come down and is likely as low as it is going to be for a while so if I were to add it, now would be the time. Excavator is just good in general.
So, after thinking about it (I changed this response a couple times) I have decided to add in Ramunap Excavator and Strip Mine to see if I can use this as part of the overall LD package. Crucible is on the back burner for now as I am not sure about it (and I really want other things first anyway). Luckily, I had some extra money in the budget from not making changes one week and making less than $20 worth of changes a couple other weeks that I was barely able to squeeze these in. I ended up with $2.58 left for the week:
ADDS
Ramunap Excavator $3.57
Strip Mine $18.61
CUTS
Noxious Gearhulk
Mountain Valley
I already explained Mountain Valley above and Gearhulk is gone for now to a) lower my curve and b) because I have other creature destruction spells. The lack of lifegain may hurt so it might come back later.
The first game started off reasonably well. I got Windgrace down kind on time but the Sliver player was getting a little out of control. I eventually drew into a World Shaper and a turn or 2 after this the Saheeli player tried to Blasphemous Act. In response, I attempted to cycle Decree of Annihilation knowing that B. Act would kill the World Shaper so I would just get my lands back. However, the Aminatou player decided to cast Evacuation so I just destroyed all lands without being able to get them back.
It got to my turn and I played a land and activated Lord Windgrace. I activated Wingrace again next turn and cast World Shaper. One of the lands I had was High Market so I was able to sac World Shaper to get all my lands back anyway. From there, we all rebuilt pretty well but I was still ahead of my opponents. Unfortunately, the Aminatou player cast Approach of the Second Sun. I couldn't do much to stop it so, after they tried to Windfall the following turn, I activated my Fertilid to force them to shuffle.
Seeing as I had no real defense against an Approach if they ever drew into it again, I ended up getting to the point of discarding Soul of New Phyrexia with Windgrace, tutoring with Diabolic Intent and then activating Soul and casting Obliterate the same turn. This left me very far ahead and I was able to just coast to victory from here with a few creatures.
The second game actually started off a bit rough. I had 3 lands in hand, one of which was Glacial Chasm but I had Yavimaya Elder in hand. Luckily I drew into lands but it took a couple turns to get my second green source. I ended up doing a few things before Lord Windgrace but I got him dropped down eventually.
This time, we were going back and forth with some mass wraths or bounce from Aminatou but I found my chance when the Aminatou player tried to Time Reversal. I responded with Heroic Intervention and they let it resolve. I then cycled Decree of Annihilation to set everyone back. At one point I also cast Wave of Vitriol which set back Saheeli, got rid of some important artifacts from Aminatou and really messed with the Sliver player since they had very few basics.
A while later, I tutored for Strip Mine with Realms Uncharted. I used Strip Mine to keep Aminatou off Blue. I also had a World Breaker in this game to exile mana rocks and lands players had left. I ended up only using Strip Mine two or three times but I could have done more.
Ultimately, I just beat down with World Breaker and Multani.
In both games, the Sliver player commented that they were a turn away from either killing someone (game 1) or casting their own Jokulhaups (game 2) so the timing of the MLD was pretty well timed.
Overall, the new additions to the deck seem to be working very well. As mentioned before, there is definitely situations where the timing of MLD is important; simply slamming one is not going to work out and these games showed the better opportunities for doing so.
The first game started off rocky and it took a long time to get to my black source. I cast Lord Windgrace and ticked him up and then ticked him down the next turn. Then, he died. That was the only time I used him. I had tried to play Last One Standing earlier which was countered. I needed it to go through since Brudiclad was getting out of control.
I could do basically nothing at this point since my hand had 3 or 4 cards in it that didn't do much. I basically just had to roll over and die from Brudiclad. I did eventually get a World Breaker out. I exiled Brudiclad's Vault of Catlacan. They swung at me with a ton of tokens and Brudiclad. I blocked and tried to cast Momentous Fall only to have Tuvasa counter it which killed me.
The second game went much better. I ramped with Sakura Tribe Elder and Phyrexian Reclamation for a while. I got down Lord Windgrace late but the turn after I dropped him, I tried to Jokulhaups. Aminatou was tapped out and Brudiclad had 2 mana open. They ended up countering it.
In a turn or two, I got a Glacial Chasm off Ulvenwald Hydra and just get bringing back Realm Seekers to gain a bunch of life with Miren and Phyrexian Reclamation. Tuvasa then proceeded to drop an Avacyn and then Brudiclad copied it with Phyrexian Metamorph. So we had 2 Avacyns to deal with though I didn't care as much.
After Brudiclad gave everyone tokens from a Tempting Offer card, I let Glacial Chasm go to the grave, I attacked Aminatou to kill them, and then I got Ramunap Excavator to play the Chasm again. Two turns later, Brudiclad had 67 mana from a Vault of Catlacan because they had a bunch of tokens from the Tempting offer that they turned into Thopters. They tutored with Whir of Invention. I didn't know what they were going to get but I feared Memnarch so, while that was on the stack, I cast Rakdos Charm killing them and bringing Tuvasa down to 21. I got to my turn and just passed since I couldn't attack Tuvasa due to their 2 Sphere of Safety.
This is where my major misplay came in (though, I am going with the excuse that is was late since we were playing at 2:00 AM). I passed the turn instead of casting the Toxic Deluge in my hand. I needed to cast the deluge because they had a Grand Abolisher on the field. So, when it got to their turn, they cast Open the Vaults and got back Fall of the Thran. I not only had Crop Rotation in hand to get Bojuka Bog, I also had Heroic Intervention in hand. Two cards that would have likely won me the game and I couldn't cast either one of them. It was dumb on my part and so Tuvasa got a well deserved win.
On a side note, we are looking to end this league and start up a new one with 2 color combinations. We will use the things we learned with this one to try to make the other one a bit more fair and balanced across all decks. That means that in a week or two, I will be updating the list here to add in some of the cards I don't have yet (mostly lands) as well as taking out the MLD package.
I have also been getting down a little on Omnath so I may ended up cutting it to make the curve lower and give me something I can play a little earlier. I am not sure what that is going to be though.