I'm running a few tutors as well, like Vampiric, Mystical, Muddle the Mixture and Spellseeker can hit cyclonic rift as well. Sometimes 6 seems right, but I haven't been getting much testing in lately, so it's hard to say. Also, my meta lacks boardwipes in general, so I tend to favor them more.
I'm running a few tutors as well, like Vampiric, Mystical, Muddle the Mixture and Spellseeker can hit cyclonic rift as well. Sometimes 6 seems right, but I haven't been getting much testing in lately, so it's hard to say. Also, my meta lacks boardwipes in general, so I tend to favor them more.
I really like Toxic Deluge due to its modal nature and the ability keep your general and potentially your eternalized creatures depending on the board state.
I would probably make Toxic Deluge my 6th boardwipe, I just don't have it. Or replace In garruk's wake.
Been tuning up the list. Hope y'all don't mind me posting a bunch, I haven't been able to play EDH much at all the last month at least So my time is spent ruminating on the deck and these threads. Luckily, I have a game tomorrow!
After seeing paragonweapon's list, discard has become more appealing to me. Added in Rotting Rats and Liliana's Specter. I'm eyeballing Miasmic Mummy. I like that Rotting rats can be unearthed for a cheaper cost that the god's externalize ability.
Gravedigger is a card I've been considering with all of my etb effects. Found a card I like better though, Cadaver Imp. Not in the deck right now, but thinking about it. The fact that it's cheaper and has flying is great. These guys are instant boardwipe recovery cards.
I would probably make Toxic Deluge my 6th boardwipe, I just don't have it. Or replace In garruk's wake.
Been tuning up the list. Hope y'all don't mind me posting a bunch, I haven't been able to play EDH much at all the last month at least So my time is spent ruminating on the deck and these threads. Luckily, I have a game tomorrow!
After seeing paragonweapon's list, discard has become more appealing to me. Added in Rotting Rats and Liliana's Specter. I'm eyeballing Miasmic Mummy. I like that Rotting rats can be unearthed for a cheaper cost that the god's externalize ability.
Gravedigger is a card I've been considering with all of my etb effects. Found a card I like better though, Cadaver Imp. Not in the deck right now, but thinking about it. The fact that it's cheaper and has flying is great. These guys are instant boardwipe recovery cards.
Shameless self promotion: I won the first and only 2 games I played against 3 opponents each time. My long hiatus of playing is over. I made 2 new posts on my thread in my signature, including the decklist I settled on. There is some analysis of some specific cards that showed up you might be interested in. Hope y'all can drop a line over there.
Rotting rats actually seems fine to me paragonwagon. I run 28 creatures and a lot of card draw. One card that allows me to sneak a creature card into the graveyard early is pretty nice. I like that rats can come back for only 2 mana from the graveyard if need be. I can potentially make people discard 2 cards before the god even comes out. Also, it's already a zombie. That is significant.
I keep eyeing smallpox. I may want to add this instead of cackling fiend. We might get someone to sac. and discard a creature netting us two targets in the 'yard just for one person. With my list, I can set up to put two creatures into the 'yard pretty easily off this card. I have a plethora of small cantrip creatures that I want to sac. and get into the yard asap. If we had to, we can sac. the scarab god if we had no other creatures out and still play it for 5 next turn. There's also the option of casting this spell, then putting the god's "externalize" trigger on the stack after it for 6 mana. We get an etb effect off our token, than sac. it away with no hard feelings. I think my curve is low enough, and my card advantage great enough that sacrificing a land may not be that bad a trade off for what I get out of the card. Imagine boardwiping one turn, then playing this next turn after your opponents try to recover. This card is also nice with Mikaeus the unhallowed, which I tend to see a lot of in this deck due to me constantly searching for him.
Both Smallpox and the discard creatures fit well with my theme: keep cleaning up the board and deny opponent's access to their resources.
Shameless self promotion: I won the first and only 2 games I played against 3 opponents each time. My long hiatus of playing is over. I made 2 new posts on my thread in my signature, including the decklist I settled on. There is some analysis of some specific cards that showed up you might be interested in. Hope y'all can drop a line over there.
Rotting rats actually seems fine to me paragonwagon. I run 28 creatures and a lot of card draw. One card that allows me to sneak a creature card into the graveyard early is pretty nice. I like that rats can come back for only 2 mana from the graveyard if need be. I can potentially make people discard 2 cards before the god even comes out. Also, it's already a zombie. That is significant.
I keep eyeing smallpox. I may want to add this instead of cackling fiend. We might get someone to sac. and discard a creature netting us two targets in the 'yard just for one person. With my list, I can set up to put two creatures into the 'yard pretty easily off this card. I have a plethora of small cantrip creatures that I want to sac. and get into the yard asap. If we had to, we can sac. the scarab god if we had no other creatures out and still play it for 5 next turn. There's also the option of casting this spell, then putting the god's "externalize" trigger on the stack after it for 6 mana. We get an etb effect off our token, than sac. it away with no hard feelings. I think my curve is low enough, and my card advantage great enough that sacrificing a land may not be that bad a trade off for what I get out of the card. Imagine boardwiping one turn, then playing this next turn after your opponents try to recover. This card is also nice with Mikaeus the unhallowed, which I tend to see a lot of in this deck due to me constantly searching for him.
Both Smallpox and the discard creatures fit well with my theme: keep cleaning up the board and deny opponent's access to their resources.
Cheers!
So, I swapped out the Guul Draz Specter and Blizzard Spcter which have been underperforming for the Liliana's Specter and Herald of Anguish. I didnt win the first game I played (not hitting a draw engine sucks with two hard control decks at the table) and got mana screwed the second game (kept a 3 lander and didn't see another land for 10 turns), but I still had the table playing hellbent after Liliana of the Veil wrecked their hands. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to play the two cards I put in the deck.
Oh, nice, some updates. Also, JJ: I don't mind you posting here frequently. It's nice for everyone to have an ongoing dialog, and any suggestions keep the thought process going. We all have different metas, playstyles, and builds.
I made these recent changes to my list (will be editing OP tonight or tomorrow)
Between Friday and Sunday, I played 6 games. Each of the new cards was played and made a solid impact - Replica and Muse in particular were overperformers. Looking over what you guys brought up, I like the idea of cards like Rotting Rats, Miasmic Mummy, and Herald of Anguish. Even if the first two are symmetrical, our Commander breaks graveyard parity. I'm definitely going to add the discard package - I love the idea, and more and more I find mill falling flat. It's a welcome divergence. JJ, I feel like our lists are getting closer, though I intend to keep my cmc a bit lower and keep more Instant-speed shenanigans.
So, what do you guys think of the new Dimir mechanic from Guilds of Ravnica? We only have one card with it spoiled so far: Sinister Sabotage. Basically a new form of Scry - but putting the unwanted cards into your graveyard, rather than bottom of library. It has potential, though it'll ultimately depend on how many cards receive the keyword, and how effective they are at filtering. Getting a variation on Read the Bones would be excellent - "Surveil 2, then draw 2 cards. Lose 2 life." or something similar. Filter creatures or unneeded cards into your graveyard, draw gas, reanimate.
So, I swapped out the Guul Draz Specter and Blizzard Spcter which have been underperforming for the Liliana's Specter and Herald of Anguish. I didnt win the first game I played (not hitting a draw engine sucks with two hard control decks at the table) and got mana screwed the second game (kept a 3 lander and didn't see another land for 10 turns), but I still had the table playing hellbent after Liliana of the Veil wrecked their hands. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to play the two cards I put in the deck.
Unfortunate! I suspect the replacements will prove more effective in the long run. Liliana of the Veil is a house. I'd consider picking one up myself if they weren't so pricy. Guessing that since Scarab God amasses a board presence, it makes it difficult for others to get in on her for chip damage, so she just sticks around.
I played another game with my list tonight and Herald of Anguish was an all-star, eating a board wipe and then coming back with The Scarab God, though having a Geth's Grimoire helped a ton as did a lack of artifact or enchantment wipes.
That's good to hear. My latest order of cards should be arriving in a day or two, so I'll begin testing the Discard package in my list. If it gets online often enough, I'll definitely add a Grimoire too.
Herald of Anguish is one of those cards that since it was released, I've wanted to play it. So - fingers crossed that I can replicate your results. Improvise is nice too, if only because I can see being able to reduce it's casting cost by 2-3 consistently.
That's good to hear. My latest order of cards should be arriving in a day or two, so I'll begin testing the Discard package in my list. If it gets online often enough, I'll definitely add a Grimoire too.
Herald of Anguish is one of those cards that since it was released, I've wanted to play it. So - fingers crossed that I can replicate your results. Improvise is nice too, if only because I can see being able to reduce it's casting cost by 2-3 consistently.
My game had close to ideal results for the Herald, so I am not sure how often I will be able to replicate that, considering it probably caused my opponents to discard 10-15 cards and due to the Grimoire, drew me that many as well. Ideally, it draws out a board wipe and ends up making my opponents all discard 2-3 cards over the course of the game.
My target for Herald would likely be 2-3 cards from each opponent (at which point it is effectively a Skull Rend with a body), as far as it's own abilities go. But it requiring an answer is also an effective use, since they'll need to remove it twice (or exile it) to ensure it stays gone.
Grimoire: I agree, Liliana of the veil does look great. I have 2 of them that have just been sitting around. I think she would be amazing and I'll make room for her in my list. If you want to try and trade me for one Grimoire, I'm open to that. Private message me and let me know. It's a near mint MM '17 edition.
Also, the more I go into the discard theme, the more I want to have a higher number of creatures in the deck. My list is currently at 27 which seems too low the more games I get in. Discard, and creature removal are certainly superior to mill the more I play. The nice thing is, so many of the discard creatures are low cmc.
I'm considering adding in a sac. outlet or two. I've been hitting this slump in my mid game. Say I've done really well controlling the board with Fleshbag Marauder and Ravenous Chupacabra or the like early. Now I just have a bunch of tiny creatures out, maybe the god, but not enough targets in the yard. (Due to me removing commanders which go to the command zone.) While my opponents have few to no creatures on the board, I'm not getting in much damage in the mean time. Basically, the more I play the deck, the more I want extra low cost creatures, and the ability to get them into the graveyard early.
On that note, I just found this gem recommended by benjameenbears on my thread. *Cues the herald of horns to play*
Soldevi Adnate A good sac outlet with no mana investment. In fact, it gives you mana. It only costs 2, and it's about $.25 As benjameen reminded me, any token we create with the god is black and retains it's original cmc. So we will have plenty of targets. Sometimes I just really want to sac. a baleful strix or dusk legion zealot type card to resurrect it and draw another. Discard type creature cards are also good fodder for this as we care more about the discard effect than the tiny creature we initially get out of it. Furthermore, if you sac. a two cost creature, you're halfway to reanimating it mana wise. If you sac. a 3 cost creature, you only need 1 more measly mana to reanimate it!
Benjameenbear put together an amazing list on my God page (signature) that is full of great ideas (see the bottom of page 2 of the thread.) Definitely worth looking at. He gives some nice explanations of cards and some theory. Other noteworthy cards mentioned were
This is definitely going to be a process. A lot of experimentation and testing is required to see how the deck pans out. On the topic of sac outlets, I surprised myself with how I built Scarab God - as a longtime Black player, they're usually abundant in my lists. There are a number of people who, rather smartly, would prefer to take control of the God rather than try and kill it in vain and a sac outlet is needed to escape that. It's why I added a Viscera Seer.
Soldevi Adnate seems like it would be good for the same reason Ashnod's Altar is: It slashes reanimation costs. AA is functionally a second copy of Training Grounds. Simply sac a creature, then pay UB to reanimate it. I'll pick one up when the opportunity strikes.
As for the array of Counter-creatures, I mentioned in the other thread already that I'd somehow forgotten the Drakeling. But I don't know if I like the Prodigy (it cannot counter after being Eternalized, unless you have another Wizard/subtheme of them) or the Daring Apprentice (it is a tap ability), but I can see the possibilities.
I think you might be under-estimating the power of Voidmage Prodigy. I think it's easy to include a subtheme of Wizards to the deck so that you always have a Counterspell ready while getting those same Wizards into the 'yard so you can eternalize them. The list of Wizards that would be synergistic to the deck that I can think of, top of mind, are pretty powerful:
That looks like a really robust list of Wizards that are all good are on their own and are even better when they're Eternalized. So while the Prodigy does lose some value since it can't sac itself to its own ability after being eternalized, I think it would be a great inclusion because it COULD synergize so strongly with the rest of your deck.
I've recently come to appreciate The God's ability to return itself to your hand after dying. The fact that it (should) always cost 5 mana is really quite awesome. Ghoulcaller Gisa sac'ing The God turn after turn for just 6 total mana is really quite fun to envision...
I think the problem is more that I don't want to reconfigure the deck to better accommodate a sub-Tribal synergy, as I quite like where the list has been going lately. I agree, in that it could be effective, and some of the cards you listed were on my first rough lists (Aether Adept, Exclusion Mage, and Sower of Temptation in particular).
Snapcaster is something I would add anyway, once I get my hands on one. Venser is something I'll be looking to try after testing my first few changes. Something to consider though, so thanks for the input regardless. Maybe I'll switch up on a rainy day to confuse people.
I ended up cutting Ghoulcaller Gisa. It's great to imagine, yea, but where I play I almost never cast or Eternalized her (and when I did, it was win-more). Difficult to find good spaces to play 5-drops.
This is definitely going to be a process. A lot of experimentation and testing is required to see how the deck pans out. On the topic of sac outlets, I surprised myself with how I built Scarab God - as a longtime Black player, they're usually abundant in my lists. There are a number of people who, rather smartly, would prefer to take control of the God rather than try and kill it in vain and a sac outlet is needed to escape that. It's why I added a Viscera Seer.
Soldevi Adnate seems like it would be good for the same reason Ashnod's Altar is: It slashes reanimation costs. AA is functionally a second copy of Training Grounds. Simply sac a creature, then pay UB to reanimate it. I'll pick one up when the opportunity strikes.
As for the array of Counter-creatures, I mentioned in the other thread already that I'd somehow forgotten the Drakeling. But I don't know if I like the Prodigy (it cannot counter after being Eternalized, unless you have another Wizard/subtheme of them) or the Daring Apprentice (it is a tap ability), but I can see the possibilities.
If you find your meta targeting your God a lot (as they should be, BOW BEFORE THE MIGHT PUNY MORTALS!) you might want to throw in Swiftfoot boots on top of the lightning greaves. I'm also switching out Altar of the Brood for Altar of Dementia. I think the sac. outlet is more important than the mill aspect. Since altar has both for only one more mana, seems fair enough. The deck does seem like it needs a couple of sac. outlets. I'm also eyeing that Ashnod's Altar I have in a different deck for this one.
I think I prefer sac outlets to another pair of footwear, for now at least; they have greater flexibility. Funny story though:
Once played a game with my The Scarab God vs. Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Atraxa, Praetor's Voice, and Edgar Markov. Edgar started landscrewed, and the blue decks spent almost an hour and a half on a continual counter-war with boardwipes. There was even an attempted Armageddon by the Atraxa opponent. Once all was said and done, TSG's natural resilience put me into a commanding position. Killed Atraxa, and was preparing to kill the other two on my next turn - if not for Edgar. They had managed to sneak out an Exquisite Blood when all counterspells had been spent. They were Rifted twice, and targeted by a River's Rebuke at one point. They played the other half of the combo, Sanguine Bond, and tried to attack with a lifelinker. GAAIV and I worked together to stop that, but I overlooked one simple detail: I didn't have a sacrifice outlet. and I had two zombies.
Upkeep trigger, each opponent loses 2 and I scry 2. Edgar won off my trigger, and I thought it was goddamn hilarious.
Moral of the story: sac outlets can save your life.
I believe Midnight Reaper will be finding a spot in my list. I used to have Grim Haruspex in the list, but found it wasn't consistent enough in card draw. The fact that midnight reaper can draw a card for its self dying, and it's already a zombie, makes me think he's going to be worth it. Can't wait to skullclamp some weenie with this guy out and draw 3 cards for 1 mana! I'll try to replace a non-creature card draw spell with this guy.
Updated decklist! And added a version sorted by function. Need to rewrite the introduction.
Guilds of Ravnica feels like it's spoiling me. Midnight Reaper is a solid value and I don't doubt it'll carve itself a home in many of my decks - I'm still a bit leery of the nontoken clause for The Scarab God, but seeing as everything has to die first anyway, it makes sense. Fun note is that since he deals damage, if it gains Lifelink (Whip of Erebos?), you'll actually gain Life instead.
Already mentioned it in your thread but Notion Rain seems fantastic; strictly better Read the Bones. Replacing either that or Night's Whisper. Dream Eater is also worth testing, seeing as it's basically a 4-mana flyer with a self-mill etb glued to an 2-mana instant that bounces a nonland permanent.
But if there is a single card I've seen so far that I will be shoving into The Scarab God, it's Doom Whisperer. 5-mana 6/6 Flying, Trample. It'll also go in my Malfegor Demon Tribal, but the point is this card looks beastly. Extremely efficient beater with excellent, instant speed filtering attached.
Also going to pick up a Prerelease copy of the new Lazav, because I think he's silly in all the right ways.
On another note, I've been considering adding Ugin, the Spirit Dragon as my 6th board wipe. Partially because I picked up 4 copies when they were $25 and haven't really used them. But also because Enchantress decks overran my area recently, and I need at least one solid out to their nonsense.
Is As foretold still working out for you? I keep thinking a ramp type spell would be better, but I haven't played with it. It looks like one of those cards that's tricky to evaluate through text only.
Ugin, the spirit Dragon looks insane! Yes all the way. This is so much more than a boardwipe. With our deck, we can just keep jamming creatures in front of it while using it's +2 ability until it ultimates. I went down to 5 boardwipes, but would definitely make this my 6th. The more I find cards that do double duty, the better the deck gets. A boardwipe, plus a potential win-con is great. Not too mention it's a possible enchantment, planeswalker and colored artifact boardwipe to boot.
I don't get Mistvein borderpost. This looks pretty slow compared to another 2 drop artifact that comes into play untapped. It doesn't even really ramp you at all if you use it's alternative casting cost. Also, it comes into play tapped... Commander's sphere would probably be better. Or thought vessel.
My list is updated. Haven't found room for Dream Eater yet, but keeping it in mind. If I open one, I'll try and stick it in. This card is a great EDH card in general though, it will find play somewhere! This looks like a card that is easy to undervalue. It will probably see standard play too, hope it doesn't get too expensive.
Doom Whisperer does look really good. Not sure it's better than Bloodgift Demon though. Bloodgift demon has been a beast for me. It's just a second copy of [card]phyrexian arena[/card, in the deck with the added benefit of being a creature. I just can't imagine being able to use it's ability all that often as the life cost is pretty steep. As the old saying goes, a card in hand is worth 2 in the 'yard I can see how I could be wrong though. If you can play this on turn 4, then cast god, then wait until turn after god comes out to use it's surveil ability. The nice thing is, if you don't hit anything tasty the first time, you can choose to activate it again before the god's zombie/scry trigger resolves.
I don't believe I saw Soldevi Adnate. Trust me, make room for it. This card is bonkers good.
Painful Quandary looks really interesting. Seems like Paragonweapon has that in his discard list. I think this might be better than Dictate of erebos even. Looks like a self-contained wincon. I've played against it in edh and it really hurts. I'll keep it in consideration.
Been changing my deck around to maximize the creature count. Added in Deranged Assistant and soldevi adnate in place of some other artifact ramp I had. Switched out Mystical Tutor and another non-creature tutor for Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Rune-scarred Demon. I would rather have late game tutors that are creatures than cheaper early game tutors that aren't. Tutoring is not something I have my mind/mana on in the early game, so it seemed natural.
It's funny, because your creature count seems to have gone down recently, while mine has gone up. Maximizing the creature count is something I'm starting to appreciate as it makes the deck more self-reliant, and adds synergy in two ways. As you said at one point Grimoire, your opponents may not be playing creature heavy decks. The more we have of our own creatures, the less that effects us. As far as synergy goes, obviously more creatures means more targets for the god. Less obviously, the more creatures we have, the better our synergy gets between all other self-discard and creature trigger effects we have. If we want to play Rotting Rats or Liliana of the veil, we want to have a nice creature to discard to it. SkullClamp gets better with more targets. Loot type and other graveyard effects are better. Things like Fact or Fiction, champion of wits Surveil abilities like Rain of Notions get better. Creature sac. outlets like Altar of Dementia and phyrexian altar become more powerful. Even Lightning Greaves gets a little boost by giving more creatures haste. Can't wait to give you a gameplay update on my creature heavy list.
I sent you a private message about trading for a Liliana of the veil. I think this card is pretty good in this deck. Glad to be learning some tricks from paragon. Let me know if your interested, I'm interested in Ugin.
Found a sneaky ****er right here: Magus of the Abyss. If it isn't removed at instant speed on our turn, they will be losing a creature. This is especially brutal if they have a low creature count deck. Respectable stats for a black 4 drop too. Not sure on the rules on this part, everyone weigh in. At the beginning of your upkeep, you put the god's scry/drain ability on the stack. Then resurrect this from the 'yard as a zombie. I don't believe it will trigger and cause you to sacrifice a creature, but it will count as a zombie when the god's ability resolves. Later on after our opponents have sacrificed creatures, we just use the god's ability to "externalize" another that we sac. on our upkeep. On our turn, it's trigger would be first on the stack, then the god's scry/drain ability. That way we can "externalize" a creature, still get to scry/drain for it, then sac. it to Magus of the abyss's trigger.
I'll reply in more detail later - about to head to my LGS for some testing. But to touch upon quickly:
The Borderpost was an experiment. I'm going to swap it out with a Solemn as soon as I can dig one out of my collection. Just trying to figure out what I'd take out for Ugin at this point.
Went to LGS last night, most of the group were no shows this week. Regardless, made room for changes. Apologize for not replying last night, allergies are a nightmare.
The Borderpost was an experiment to begin with, and the more I talk to people here, the more I find myself incrementally raising my curve. As long as I can keep the deck fairly open and reactive though, this is fine.
When looking for space for Ugin, I realized I don't play the Champion very often. Might sneak the Champion back in, replacing Merfolk Looter or another small effect. Keep forgetting that I wanted to try out Enclave Cryptologist as a "cheaper" Merfolk Looter that becomes "Draw a card" in the late game.
Is As foretold still working out for you? I keep thinking a ramp type spell would be better, but I haven't played with it. It looks like one of those cards that's tricky to evaluate through text only.
As Foretold has done some good work for me in the games I've drawn it - I've mostly used it to circumvent paying mana for The Scarab God. If it starts becoming a problem in the late game, I may eventually remove it, but for now it works.
My list is updated. Haven't found room for Dream Eater yet, but keeping it in mind. If I open one, I'll try and stick it in. This card is a great EDH card in general though, it will find play somewhere! This looks like a card that is easy to undervalue. It will probably see standard play too, hope it doesn't get too expensive.
Been putting some real thought into where Dream Eater would go, what I would replace. It might be Noxious Gearhulk. While the Gearhulk kills something, the Dream Eater is an Instant Speed Tempo play - making someone pay to cast the same spell again is a waste of their resources. It having Flash and Surveil just kind of cement it, I believe.
The worst case scenario seems to be you Flash it in on the End Step before your turn, bounce something that's in your way, and set up your next draw/feed your graveyard.
Doom Whisperer does look really good. Not sure it's better than Bloodgift Demon though. Bloodgift demon has been a beast for me. It's just a second copy of [card]phyrexian arena[/card, in the deck with the added benefit of being a creature. I just can't imagine being able to use it's ability all that often as the life cost is pretty steep. As the old saying goes, a card in hand is worth 2 in the 'yard I can see how I could be wrong though. If you can play this on turn 4, then cast god, then wait until turn after god comes out to use it's surveil ability. The nice thing is, if you don't hit anything tasty the first time, you can choose to activate it again before the god's zombie/scry trigger resolves.
As people say all the time, Life is a resource. If I can pay 10 life to shovel through a land clump or stock my graveyard, I'd do it. It's not Griselbrand - but it reminds me of him enough. But in fairness, not sure what I would take out for it. Guess we'll see when it comes out.
I don't believe I saw Soldevi Adnate. Trust me, make room for it. This card is bonkers good.
Painful Quandary looks really interesting. Seems like Paragonweapon has that in his discard list. I think this might be better than Dictate of erebos even. Looks like a self-contained wincon. I've played against it in edh and it really hurts. I'll keep it in consideration.
Been changing my deck around to maximize the creature count. Added in Deranged Assistant and soldevi adnate in place of some other artifact ramp I had. Switched out Mystical Tutor and another non-creature tutor for Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Rune-scarred Demon. I would rather have late game tutors that are creatures than cheaper early game tutors that aren't. Tutoring is not something I have my mind/mana on in the early game, so it seemed natural.
It's funny, because your creature count seems to have gone down recently, while mine has gone up. Maximizing the creature count is something I'm starting to appreciate as it makes the deck more self-reliant, and adds synergy in two ways. As you said at one point Grimoire, your opponents may not be playing creature heavy decks. The more we have of our own creatures, the less that effects us. As far as synergy goes, obviously more creatures means more targets for the god. Less obviously, the more creatures we have, the better our synergy gets between all other self-discard and creature trigger effects we have. If we want to play Rotting Rats or Liliana of the veil, we want to have a nice creature to discard to it. SkullClamp gets better with more targets. Loot type and other graveyard effects are better. Things like Fact or Fiction, champion of wits Surveil abilities like Rain of Notions get better. Creature sac. outlets like Altar of Dementia and phyrexian altar become more powerful. Even Lightning Greaves gets a little boost by giving more creatures haste. Can't wait to give you a gameplay update on my creature heavy list.
Yea, I noticed that - a lot of my initial creatures were reactive (having Flash or niche abilities). The more I tinker, the more I play with the ratio (trying to keep my creatures count ~30ish). Once I obtain an Adnate, I'm replacing a mana rock, just haven't ordered one yet.
That's funny - I've been considering Sidisi and Rune-Scarred too, lately. Mostly because with the added Discard, there's less harm in having them since the deck can just pitch them into the 'yard for Rotting Rats/Miasmic Mummy/Oppression. Though I moved away from combo, they could still aid in being a control deck - tutoring up my Discard Stax pieces in particular. Though since I started using Mystical Tutor, I like to think of it as a Boardwipe, because that's what it tends to become.
Yeah, I'd probably leave in mystical tutor if I didn't have vampiric tutor in my deck already. I found I just didn't need them both. I forgot your deck doesn't have one of those.
In addition to sidisi and Rune-scarred demon, I've been running Corpse Connoisseur too. I've gone back to more expensive creature tutors in general because they provide card advantage, while other tutors don't. When you're tutor is on a stick, you grab creature and a card the first time, then another creature and a tutored card when "externalized." I'd usually rather play a corpse connoisseur for 5 mana early on than the scarab god early on.
The card I'd say you could use the most is Buried alive. This card is especially good when you add those creature tutors in the deck. It's tutor inception. You can get any card you want through buried alive when you tutor a rune-scarred demon into the 'yard, then "externalize" it. Or Corpse Connoisseur counts as 2 creatures in the 'yard eventually. The card advantage is crazy if you put all 3 tutors into the 'yard. You end up with access to something like 6 cards eventually by using this one card. If you just want straight card advantage, you grab champion of wits which digs 4 deep and grabs 2 cards when externalized. Mulldrifter grabs you another 2 cards. Runescarred gets you another tutored card. You net 8 cards (counting the token creatures you receive throughout the process) after you externalize all of these off one Buried Alive. I love it, because this one card will let me run purely through externalizing with the scarab god for a few turns. That allows me to build up answers in my hand. While my opponents usually must cast spells to impact the board on their turn, thus losing cards from their hand, this deck is busy using mana on it's army in a can to develop a nasty board while socking away cards for a rainy turn.
One card I've got my eye on after rotation is Razaketh, the Foulblooded. This thing looks like a beast! If I add this, I have 3 creatures that can search for any card in the deck. At that point, I'd probably put entomb back into the deck. These cards that search for a creature into the 'yard become so much stronger when the creature they put in searches for any card you want. They go from being neutral card advantage wise, to more like a 3-for-1 when you tutor up creatures with card advantage.
Hopefully that wasn't too long winded and it helps you figure out if those creature tutor cards are worth it.
***Edit*** Just saw you have consecrated sphinx. Nice! That looks like a card I will save up to buy eventually. I like this much better than Bloodgift Demon, so perhaps you don't need one of those after all.
If you're having trouble with making cuts, I wonder how good Gray merchant of asphodel is when compared to the other cards mentioned.
When I can get a Vampiric, it might just replace Mystical. Much more flexible.
Corpse Connoisseur and Buried Alive are cards I'm already aware of (I have both in my monoB atypical reanimator list). When I had my Mindcrank + Duskmantle Guildmage combo, I was averse to tutors because I didn't want the deck to focus on Insta-wins Both are great cards - and back on the consideration list. For now I'm going to keep testing my list as-is before I go making more changes.
Razaketh is incredibly powerful, I need to pick up a few. It will always be playable in more decks. The way you talk about it lately, your deck is getting a lot more sac heavy?
I'm running a few tutors as well, like Vampiric, Mystical, Muddle the Mixture and Spellseeker can hit cyclonic rift as well. Sometimes 6 seems right, but I haven't been getting much testing in lately, so it's hard to say. Also, my meta lacks boardwipes in general, so I tend to favor them more.
I really like Toxic Deluge due to its modal nature and the ability keep your general and potentially your eternalized creatures depending on the board state.
Been tuning up the list. Hope y'all don't mind me posting a bunch, I haven't been able to play EDH much at all the last month at least So my time is spent ruminating on the deck and these threads. Luckily, I have a game tomorrow!
After seeing paragonweapon's list, discard has become more appealing to me. Added in Rotting Rats and Liliana's Specter. I'm eyeballing Miasmic Mummy. I like that Rotting rats can be unearthed for a cheaper cost that the god's externalize ability.
Gravedigger is a card I've been considering with all of my etb effects. Found a card I like better though, Cadaver Imp. Not in the deck right now, but thinking about it. The fact that it's cheaper and has flying is great. These guys are instant boardwipe recovery cards.
Keep in mind that the Rotting Rats and Miasmic Mummy cause you to discard as well, so more effects like Cackling Fiend and Liliana's Specter may be more helpful. Augur of Skulls and Dauthi Mindripper are good one shot effects to wreck an opponent's hand. Herald of Anguish and Nezumi Shortfang can also rip an opponents hand to pieces.
Rotting rats actually seems fine to me paragonwagon. I run 28 creatures and a lot of card draw. One card that allows me to sneak a creature card into the graveyard early is pretty nice. I like that rats can come back for only 2 mana from the graveyard if need be. I can potentially make people discard 2 cards before the god even comes out. Also, it's already a zombie. That is significant.
I do like cackling fiend. I may make room for that, but keep rotting rats and liliana's specter in too.
I keep eyeing smallpox. I may want to add this instead of cackling fiend. We might get someone to sac. and discard a creature netting us two targets in the 'yard just for one person. With my list, I can set up to put two creatures into the 'yard pretty easily off this card. I have a plethora of small cantrip creatures that I want to sac. and get into the yard asap. If we had to, we can sac. the scarab god if we had no other creatures out and still play it for 5 next turn. There's also the option of casting this spell, then putting the god's "externalize" trigger on the stack after it for 6 mana. We get an etb effect off our token, than sac. it away with no hard feelings. I think my curve is low enough, and my card advantage great enough that sacrificing a land may not be that bad a trade off for what I get out of the card. Imagine boardwiping one turn, then playing this next turn after your opponents try to recover. This card is also nice with Mikaeus the unhallowed, which I tend to see a lot of in this deck due to me constantly searching for him.
Both Smallpox and the discard creatures fit well with my theme: keep cleaning up the board and deny opponent's access to their resources.
Cheers!
So, I swapped out the Guul Draz Specter and Blizzard Spcter which have been underperforming for the Liliana's Specter and Herald of Anguish. I didnt win the first game I played (not hitting a draw engine sucks with two hard control decks at the table) and got mana screwed the second game (kept a 3 lander and didn't see another land for 10 turns), but I still had the table playing hellbent after Liliana of the Veil wrecked their hands. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to play the two cards I put in the deck.
I made these recent changes to my list (will be editing OP tonight or tomorrow)
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Lich Lord of Unx
1 Twilight Prophet
1 Notion Thief
1 Ghoulcaller Gisa
1 Sol Ring
1 Mistvein Borderpost
1 Merciless Executioner
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Wizard Replica
1 Graveborn Muse
Between Friday and Sunday, I played 6 games. Each of the new cards was played and made a solid impact - Replica and Muse in particular were overperformers. Looking over what you guys brought up, I like the idea of cards like Rotting Rats, Miasmic Mummy, and Herald of Anguish. Even if the first two are symmetrical, our Commander breaks graveyard parity. I'm definitely going to add the discard package - I love the idea, and more and more I find mill falling flat. It's a welcome divergence. JJ, I feel like our lists are getting closer, though I intend to keep my cmc a bit lower and keep more Instant-speed shenanigans.
The Discard package I intend to try out: Rotting Rats, Miasmic Mummy, Oppression, Painful Quandry, and the Herald of Anguish. In addition to the Liliana's Specter already in my list, that should replace most of the mill cards. I also need to pick up a Toxic Deluge and Rhystic Study when I get the chance, I feel this deck really needs them.
So, what do you guys think of the new Dimir mechanic from Guilds of Ravnica? We only have one card with it spoiled so far: Sinister Sabotage. Basically a new form of Scry - but putting the unwanted cards into your graveyard, rather than bottom of library. It has potential, though it'll ultimately depend on how many cards receive the keyword, and how effective they are at filtering. Getting a variation on Read the Bones would be excellent - "Surveil 2, then draw 2 cards. Lose 2 life." or something similar. Filter creatures or unneeded cards into your graveyard, draw gas, reanimate.
Unfortunate! I suspect the replacements will prove more effective in the long run. Liliana of the Veil is a house. I'd consider picking one up myself if they weren't so pricy. Guessing that since Scarab God amasses a board presence, it makes it difficult for others to get in on her for chip damage, so she just sticks around.
Herald of Anguish is one of those cards that since it was released, I've wanted to play it. So - fingers crossed that I can replicate your results. Improvise is nice too, if only because I can see being able to reduce it's casting cost by 2-3 consistently.
My game had close to ideal results for the Herald, so I am not sure how often I will be able to replicate that, considering it probably caused my opponents to discard 10-15 cards and due to the Grimoire, drew me that many as well. Ideally, it draws out a board wipe and ends up making my opponents all discard 2-3 cards over the course of the game.
Also, the more I go into the discard theme, the more I want to have a higher number of creatures in the deck. My list is currently at 27 which seems too low the more games I get in. Discard, and creature removal are certainly superior to mill the more I play. The nice thing is, so many of the discard creatures are low cmc.
I'm considering adding in a sac. outlet or two. I've been hitting this slump in my mid game. Say I've done really well controlling the board with Fleshbag Marauder and Ravenous Chupacabra or the like early. Now I just have a bunch of tiny creatures out, maybe the god, but not enough targets in the yard. (Due to me removing commanders which go to the command zone.) While my opponents have few to no creatures on the board, I'm not getting in much damage in the mean time. Basically, the more I play the deck, the more I want extra low cost creatures, and the ability to get them into the graveyard early.
On that note, I just found this gem recommended by benjameenbears on my thread. *Cues the herald of horns to play*
Soldevi Adnate A good sac outlet with no mana investment. In fact, it gives you mana. It only costs 2, and it's about $.25 As benjameen reminded me, any token we create with the god is black and retains it's original cmc. So we will have plenty of targets. Sometimes I just really want to sac. a baleful strix or dusk legion zealot type card to resurrect it and draw another. Discard type creature cards are also good fodder for this as we care more about the discard effect than the tiny creature we initially get out of it. Furthermore, if you sac. a two cost creature, you're halfway to reanimating it mana wise. If you sac. a 3 cost creature, you only need 1 more measly mana to reanimate it!
Benjameenbear put together an amazing list on my God page (signature) that is full of great ideas (see the bottom of page 2 of the thread.) Definitely worth looking at. He gives some nice explanations of cards and some theory. Other noteworthy cards mentioned were
Soldevi Adnate seems like it would be good for the same reason Ashnod's Altar is: It slashes reanimation costs. AA is functionally a second copy of Training Grounds. Simply sac a creature, then pay UB to reanimate it. I'll pick one up when the opportunity strikes.
As for the array of Counter-creatures, I mentioned in the other thread already that I'd somehow forgotten the Drakeling. But I don't know if I like the Prodigy (it cannot counter after being Eternalized, unless you have another Wizard/subtheme of them) or the Daring Apprentice (it is a tap ability), but I can see the possibilities.
That looks like a really robust list of Wizards that are all good are on their own and are even better when they're Eternalized. So while the Prodigy does lose some value since it can't sac itself to its own ability after being eternalized, I think it would be a great inclusion because it COULD synergize so strongly with the rest of your deck.
I've recently come to appreciate The God's ability to return itself to your hand after dying. The fact that it (should) always cost 5 mana is really quite awesome. Ghoulcaller Gisa sac'ing The God turn after turn for just 6 total mana is really quite fun to envision...
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Snapcaster is something I would add anyway, once I get my hands on one. Venser is something I'll be looking to try after testing my first few changes. Something to consider though, so thanks for the input regardless. Maybe I'll switch up on a rainy day to confuse people.
I ended up cutting Ghoulcaller Gisa. It's great to imagine, yea, but where I play I almost never cast or Eternalized her (and when I did, it was win-more). Difficult to find good spaces to play 5-drops.
If you find your meta targeting your God a lot (as they should be, BOW BEFORE THE MIGHT PUNY MORTALS!) you might want to throw in Swiftfoot boots on top of the lightning greaves. I'm also switching out Altar of the Brood for Altar of Dementia. I think the sac. outlet is more important than the mill aspect. Since altar has both for only one more mana, seems fair enough. The deck does seem like it needs a couple of sac. outlets. I'm also eyeing that Ashnod's Altar I have in a different deck for this one.
Once played a game with my The Scarab God vs. Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Atraxa, Praetor's Voice, and Edgar Markov. Edgar started landscrewed, and the blue decks spent almost an hour and a half on a continual counter-war with boardwipes. There was even an attempted Armageddon by the Atraxa opponent. Once all was said and done, TSG's natural resilience put me into a commanding position. Killed Atraxa, and was preparing to kill the other two on my next turn - if not for Edgar. They had managed to sneak out an Exquisite Blood when all counterspells had been spent. They were Rifted twice, and targeted by a River's Rebuke at one point. They played the other half of the combo, Sanguine Bond, and tried to attack with a lifelinker. GAAIV and I worked together to stop that, but I overlooked one simple detail: I didn't have a sacrifice outlet. and I had two zombies.
Upkeep trigger, each opponent loses 2 and I scry 2. Edgar won off my trigger, and I thought it was goddamn hilarious.
Moral of the story: sac outlets can save your life.
Guilds of Ravnica feels like it's spoiling me. Midnight Reaper is a solid value and I don't doubt it'll carve itself a home in many of my decks - I'm still a bit leery of the nontoken clause for The Scarab God, but seeing as everything has to die first anyway, it makes sense. Fun note is that since he deals damage, if it gains Lifelink (Whip of Erebos?), you'll actually gain Life instead.
Already mentioned it in your thread but Notion Rain seems fantastic; strictly better Read the Bones. Replacing either that or Night's Whisper. Dream Eater is also worth testing, seeing as it's basically a 4-mana flyer with a self-mill etb glued to an 2-mana instant that bounces a nonland permanent.
But if there is a single card I've seen so far that I will be shoving into The Scarab God, it's Doom Whisperer. 5-mana 6/6 Flying, Trample. It'll also go in my Malfegor Demon Tribal, but the point is this card looks beastly. Extremely efficient beater with excellent, instant speed filtering attached.
Also going to pick up a Prerelease copy of the new Lazav, because I think he's silly in all the right ways.
On another note, I've been considering adding Ugin, the Spirit Dragon as my 6th board wipe. Partially because I picked up 4 copies when they were $25 and haven't really used them. But also because Enchantress decks overran my area recently, and I need at least one solid out to their nonsense.
Is As foretold still working out for you? I keep thinking a ramp type spell would be better, but I haven't played with it. It looks like one of those cards that's tricky to evaluate through text only.
Ugin, the spirit Dragon looks insane! Yes all the way. This is so much more than a boardwipe. With our deck, we can just keep jamming creatures in front of it while using it's +2 ability until it ultimates. I went down to 5 boardwipes, but would definitely make this my 6th. The more I find cards that do double duty, the better the deck gets. A boardwipe, plus a potential win-con is great. Not too mention it's a possible enchantment, planeswalker and colored artifact boardwipe to boot.
I don't get Mistvein borderpost. This looks pretty slow compared to another 2 drop artifact that comes into play untapped. It doesn't even really ramp you at all if you use it's alternative casting cost. Also, it comes into play tapped... Commander's sphere would probably be better. Or thought vessel.
My list is updated. Haven't found room for Dream Eater yet, but keeping it in mind. If I open one, I'll try and stick it in. This card is a great EDH card in general though, it will find play somewhere! This looks like a card that is easy to undervalue. It will probably see standard play too, hope it doesn't get too expensive.
Doom Whisperer does look really good. Not sure it's better than Bloodgift Demon though. Bloodgift demon has been a beast for me. It's just a second copy of [card]phyrexian arena[/card, in the deck with the added benefit of being a creature. I just can't imagine being able to use it's ability all that often as the life cost is pretty steep. As the old saying goes, a card in hand is worth 2 in the 'yard I can see how I could be wrong though. If you can play this on turn 4, then cast god, then wait until turn after god comes out to use it's surveil ability. The nice thing is, if you don't hit anything tasty the first time, you can choose to activate it again before the god's zombie/scry trigger resolves.
I don't believe I saw Soldevi Adnate. Trust me, make room for it. This card is bonkers good.
Painful Quandary looks really interesting. Seems like Paragonweapon has that in his discard list. I think this might be better than Dictate of erebos even. Looks like a self-contained wincon. I've played against it in edh and it really hurts. I'll keep it in consideration.
Been changing my deck around to maximize the creature count. Added in Deranged Assistant and soldevi adnate in place of some other artifact ramp I had. Switched out Mystical Tutor and another non-creature tutor for Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Rune-scarred Demon. I would rather have late game tutors that are creatures than cheaper early game tutors that aren't. Tutoring is not something I have my mind/mana on in the early game, so it seemed natural.
It's funny, because your creature count seems to have gone down recently, while mine has gone up. Maximizing the creature count is something I'm starting to appreciate as it makes the deck more self-reliant, and adds synergy in two ways. As you said at one point Grimoire, your opponents may not be playing creature heavy decks. The more we have of our own creatures, the less that effects us. As far as synergy goes, obviously more creatures means more targets for the god. Less obviously, the more creatures we have, the better our synergy gets between all other self-discard and creature trigger effects we have. If we want to play Rotting Rats or Liliana of the veil, we want to have a nice creature to discard to it. SkullClamp gets better with more targets. Loot type and other graveyard effects are better. Things like Fact or Fiction, champion of wits Surveil abilities like Rain of Notions get better. Creature sac. outlets like Altar of Dementia and phyrexian altar become more powerful. Even Lightning Greaves gets a little boost by giving more creatures haste. Can't wait to give you a gameplay update on my creature heavy list.
I sent you a private message about trading for a Liliana of the veil. I think this card is pretty good in this deck. Glad to be learning some tricks from paragon. Let me know if your interested, I'm interested in Ugin.
Also, Marsh Crocodile? Discard, and we get to double up on a mulldrifter or Champion of wits/card] or ravenous chupacabra for instance.
The Borderpost was an experiment. I'm going to swap it out with a Solemn as soon as I can dig one out of my collection. Just trying to figure out what I'd take out for Ugin at this point.
4 Solemn Simulacrum
8 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Mistvein Borderpost
3 Champion of Wits
The Borderpost was an experiment to begin with, and the more I talk to people here, the more I find myself incrementally raising my curve. As long as I can keep the deck fairly open and reactive though, this is fine.
When looking for space for Ugin, I realized I don't play the Champion very often. Might sneak the Champion back in, replacing Merfolk Looter or another small effect. Keep forgetting that I wanted to try out Enclave Cryptologist as a "cheaper" Merfolk Looter that becomes "Draw a card" in the late game.
As Foretold has done some good work for me in the games I've drawn it - I've mostly used it to circumvent paying mana for The Scarab God. If it starts becoming a problem in the late game, I may eventually remove it, but for now it works.
Been putting some real thought into where Dream Eater would go, what I would replace. It might be Noxious Gearhulk. While the Gearhulk kills something, the Dream Eater is an Instant Speed Tempo play - making someone pay to cast the same spell again is a waste of their resources. It having Flash and Surveil just kind of cement it, I believe.
The worst case scenario seems to be you Flash it in on the End Step before your turn, bounce something that's in your way, and set up your next draw/feed your graveyard.
As people say all the time, Life is a resource. If I can pay 10 life to shovel through a land clump or stock my graveyard, I'd do it. It's not Griselbrand - but it reminds me of him enough. But in fairness, not sure what I would take out for it. Guess we'll see when it comes out.
Yea, I noticed that - a lot of my initial creatures were reactive (having Flash or niche abilities). The more I tinker, the more I play with the ratio (trying to keep my creatures count ~30ish). Once I obtain an Adnate, I'm replacing a mana rock, just haven't ordered one yet.
That's funny - I've been considering Sidisi and Rune-Scarred too, lately. Mostly because with the added Discard, there's less harm in having them since the deck can just pitch them into the 'yard for Rotting Rats/Miasmic Mummy/Oppression. Though I moved away from combo, they could still aid in being a control deck - tutoring up my Discard Stax pieces in particular. Though since I started using Mystical Tutor, I like to think of it as a Boardwipe, because that's what it tends to become.
In addition to sidisi and Rune-scarred demon, I've been running Corpse Connoisseur too. I've gone back to more expensive creature tutors in general because they provide card advantage, while other tutors don't. When you're tutor is on a stick, you grab creature and a card the first time, then another creature and a tutored card when "externalized." I'd usually rather play a corpse connoisseur for 5 mana early on than the scarab god early on.
The card I'd say you could use the most is Buried alive. This card is especially good when you add those creature tutors in the deck. It's tutor inception. You can get any card you want through buried alive when you tutor a rune-scarred demon into the 'yard, then "externalize" it. Or Corpse Connoisseur counts as 2 creatures in the 'yard eventually. The card advantage is crazy if you put all 3 tutors into the 'yard. You end up with access to something like 6 cards eventually by using this one card. If you just want straight card advantage, you grab champion of wits which digs 4 deep and grabs 2 cards when externalized. Mulldrifter grabs you another 2 cards. Runescarred gets you another tutored card. You net 8 cards (counting the token creatures you receive throughout the process) after you externalize all of these off one Buried Alive. I love it, because this one card will let me run purely through externalizing with the scarab god for a few turns. That allows me to build up answers in my hand. While my opponents usually must cast spells to impact the board on their turn, thus losing cards from their hand, this deck is busy using mana on it's army in a can to develop a nasty board while socking away cards for a rainy turn.
One card I've got my eye on after rotation is Razaketh, the Foulblooded. This thing looks like a beast! If I add this, I have 3 creatures that can search for any card in the deck. At that point, I'd probably put entomb back into the deck. These cards that search for a creature into the 'yard become so much stronger when the creature they put in searches for any card you want. They go from being neutral card advantage wise, to more like a 3-for-1 when you tutor up creatures with card advantage.
Hopefully that wasn't too long winded and it helps you figure out if those creature tutor cards are worth it.
***Edit*** Just saw you have consecrated sphinx. Nice! That looks like a card I will save up to buy eventually. I like this much better than Bloodgift Demon, so perhaps you don't need one of those after all.
If you're having trouble with making cuts, I wonder how good Gray merchant of asphodel is when compared to the other cards mentioned.
Corpse Connoisseur and Buried Alive are cards I'm already aware of (I have both in my monoB atypical reanimator list). When I had my Mindcrank + Duskmantle Guildmage combo, I was averse to tutors because I didn't want the deck to focus on Insta-wins Both are great cards - and back on the consideration list. For now I'm going to keep testing my list as-is before I go making more changes.
Razaketh is incredibly powerful, I need to pick up a few. It will always be playable in more decks. The way you talk about it lately, your deck is getting a lot more sac heavy?