I really like the deck and I'm building a similar deck.
I have some questions as to why you chose certain cards.
You only seem to be using Dack Fayden to draw cards, and maybe steal an artifact, but there is no guarantee that an opponent will have a good artifact. Wouldn't Daretti, Scrap Savant be better, it seems that colorless mana is easy to come by in this deck so he would actually be easier to cast and his abilities seem more relevant? Tamiyo, the Moon Sage seems to have really good synergy with the two commanders as well.
What do you think of using Izzet Locket instead of Izzet Signet, if one were to play Daretti, then one could use it as a draw engine and bring it back, not to mention the Locket can go infinite mana and the Signet can't?
I think that Crucible of Worlds would be very powerful in this deck with a Rowan emblem and the fetch lands. I think it would be a better include than Darksteel Ingot. Just wanted to get your thoughts on that one?
I don't totally understand the inclusion of Minamo, School at Water's Edge, it seems to only be there to untap Search for Azcanta, which seems difficult to have both at the same time. It would make sense if you where using Storm the Vault too. Which would actually be very powerful, but would take too long to trigger in many cases.
I was thinking that The Locust God has a lot of potential in this deck, more than Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs which is actually a very good card too, would playing both be better?
I was wondering why Inexorable Tide was not in the deck? With Cloudstone Curio and all those low cost mana producing artifacts it's easy to infinity proliferate.
What was your thought process in choosing those counter spells?
I really like the deck and I'm building a similar deck.
I have some questions as to why you chose certain cards.
You only seem to be using Dack Fayden to draw cards, and maybe steal an artifact, but there is no guarantee that an opponent will have a good artifact. Wouldn't Daretti, Scrap Savant be better, it seems that colorless mana is easy to come by in this deck so he would actually be easier to cast and his abilities seem more relevant? Tamiyo, the Moon Sage seems to have really good synergy with the two commanders as well.
It does cost one mana less, and this can be a factor. The thing is that there is often a Sol Ring or Mana Crypt to take, and this is the difference between casting a Turn 4 Will Kenrith as opposed to Turn 6 or whatever.
But I mean there is nothing to stop your from playing Daretti as well. Honestly I've been trying Jaya Ballard lately and not been too impressed with her, so I could easily see replacing her with Daretti.
I used to play Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, but she under-performed as well. The original idea was that I could use the Rowan [+2] on an opponent for force them to tap their creatures, so that a follow up Tamiyo would allow for some draw. However it never really works out that way. You are more or less trying to kill the board of creatures at all cost, so I end up hardly ever drawing cards from her, and then the [+1] ability isn't impacting the board enough to protect your walkers in a meaningful way.
I also had her in for the ultimate, but actually I just found I was winning games without ever having used her emblem to actually win me the game.
What do you think of using Izzet Locket instead of Izzet Signet, if one were to play Daretti, then one could use it as a draw engine and bring it back, not to mention the Locket can go infinite mana and the Signet can't?
Definitely if you're going to play Izzet Locket play it as well as. The Signets are so good because they are two mana, and out of all the colored mana rocks, Izzet Signet is the best. So cut something like Coalition Relic or Darksteel Ingot first before the Izzet Signet purely based on speed. Actually I think I will replace Darksteel Ingot with Izzet Locket. There is just more upside.
I think that Crucible of Worlds would be very powerful in this deck with a Rowan emblem and the fetch lands. I think it would be a better include than Darksteel Ingot. Just wanted to get your thoughts on that one?
I have tried Crucible of Worlds in many decks and it is always under-performs. I had this discussion with my friends and they came to the same conclusion that it just doesn't do enough.
Often you have drawn enough cards that you are always able to make land drops from your hand, so then the card literally does nothing. Or you might get a situation where you play it out and your graveyard gets removed, and again it does nothing.
My best advise is to try the card out for yourself, and truly note down the times it's good and the times it's basically does nothing. If a card is 50/50, then it's bad. A card needs to be good most of the times in order to make the cut.
I don't totally understand the inclusion of Minamo, School at Water's Edge, it seems to only be there to untap Search for Azcanta, which seems difficult to have both at the same time. It would make sense if you where using Storm the Vault too. Which would actually be very powerful, but would take too long to trigger in many cases.
Essentially it's a freebie Island. You can get infinite mana with two Rowen emblems, by targeting itself to untap.
I was thinking that The Locust God has a lot of potential in this deck, more than Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs which is actually a very good card too, would playing both be better?
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs is the most amazing card in the deck. Honestly this guy has been a brick wall if he is not removed. Opponents literally can't get through to your planeswalker OR your life total unless they have flyers. The Locust God is a good idea, but find a slot somewhere else. Actually I've been running Meishin, the Mind Cage and it's been a bit slow, so I'll try The Locust God over that card.
I was wondering why Inexorable Tide was not in the deck? With Cloudstone Curio and all those low cost mana producing artifacts it's easy to infinity proliferate.
I had it in the original list, but I just found it too slow. It's as simply as that.
You might be able to build around it more, but your deck really needs a lot of cantrips to make this card work in a manner that you hope it would.
So Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Portent, Opt, Sleight of Hand, Faithless Looting, these types of cards. At the end of the day, I just don't have room for cantrips with so many specialist combos.
What was your thought process in choosing those counter spells?
It's a very light on counterspells, I decided that it needs to be a proactive deck, essentially needing to tap out most turns to cast spells. Can't really afford to hold up mana hoping to counter something in general.
But the Pact of Negation and Force of Will do allow for tapping out obviously.
I try and avoid any double colored mana counterspells as much as possible as it can be really hard to have that available at times. So I prefer to run Negate over say Counterspell for that reason. But the upside with Mana Drain is enough to warrant it.
The Mystic Confluence is as much for the draw and returning creatures to hand, rather than the counterspell aspect.
If you wanted to put more counter magic in then that's fine, just keep in mind the spells are relatively mana costly in this deck, so tapping out is kind of expected most games.
Thanks for all the good feedback, I'm very interested to know how those changes go.
One other question, have you tried Contagion Engine and or the other similar artifacts? That seems like another good way to go infinite proliferate especially with Saheeli, the Gifted, not to mention that there a ways to take Saheeli infinite with the Engine and create infinite copies of your artifacts.
On Minamo, School at Water's Edge, I was thinking of purchasing this card, but I don't want to spend $20 on a card that will mostly be a Island.
Stealing Sol Rings is good, disrupts opponents and gives you more mana, I will reconsider Dack Fayden.
Thanks for all the good feedback, I'm very interested to know how those changes go.
One other question, have you tried Contagion Engine and or the other similar artifacts? That seems like another good way to go infinite proliferate especially with Saheeli, the Gifted, not to mention that there a ways to take Saheeli infinite with the Engine and create infinite copies of your artifacts.
On Minamo, School at Water's Edge, I was thinking of purchasing this card, but I don't want to spend $20 on a card that will mostly be a Island.
Stealing Sol Rings is good, disrupts opponents and gives you more mana, I will reconsider Dack Fayden.
If you check out my Saheeli, the Gifted deck in my signature, you'll see that I am all over Contagion Engine as a card. But I think for this deck it's probably a bit slow.
For some reason I thought you were running Saheeli, the Gifted in this deck. So I'm wondering why you chose the other Saheeli? The gifted version seems better in all respects except for casting cost.
Do you have this deck in real life or are you playing on line? I don't think I've ever seen someone play a Manacrypt since the 90's in games I've had in real life. But it is a perfect card for this deck, I decided to order a proxy as I don't currently have the budget for that all the other cards I'm getting.
For some reason I thought you were running Saheeli, the Gifted in this deck. So I'm wondering why you chose the other Saheeli? The gifted version seems better in all respects except for casting cost.
Do you have this deck in real life or are you playing on line? I don't think I've ever seen someone play a Manacrypt since the 90's in games I've had in real life. But it is a perfect card for this deck, I decided to order a proxy as I don't currently have the budget for that all the other cards I'm getting.
Best,
Andrew
The thing about this deck is the difference between needing colored mana or colorless mana. The difference is like day and night for the needs of the deck. Saheeli, the Gifted only covers the colorless portions of cards. But Saheeli Rai can copy a mana rock, like Gilded Lotus or Coveted Jewel, or to a lesser extent Izzet Signet, Coalition Relic, Izzet Locket.
With Will Kenrith making spells cost less, often you're stringing together multiple activation's of him with Rowen emblems or Rings of Brighthearth or The Chain Veil, so the colorless portions of cards are often covered anyway.
The same thing applies with the Cloudstone Curio combos, that it's all the colored portions of spells which need to be covered and not the colorless.
So Saheeli, the Gifted is a little unnecessary in general. The 1/1 Thopter's are a little slow I think to provide much protection. She is not completely without use in the deck, but certainly not as good as you might first think considering what I said.
I play both tabletop with my friends and Magic Online. But I'm going to be caught out here, I use proxies a lot. Long story, but essentially it took a while for my friends to bend to my needs as a deck brewer, but also as a scourge, lol.
They were not too happy about me playing proxy Mana Crypt and the like when we first started and they didn't have the cards themselves, but spend a ton of money on cards. Yes a little unfair, but oh well. So they introduced a no card worth more than $100 rule. Eventually after seeing how good Mana Crypt was after me playing it, they've gone out and bought quite a few for themselves.
Now it's just make any deck that I want. We have a pretty large pool of cards, we've all been playing since 1994, so literally have most cards. So when making decks, most of the cards are covered. But for example when making a new deck, we just use proxy duel lands (for the Underground Seas, Tundra, etc). Same with fetch lands (Windswept Heath, Flooded Strand, etc).
Cool thanks for the info. I've been playing off and on since 1994, but had a bit of bad luck with the high priced cards, got rid of my dual lands way back when I thought, "There's no way they can go any higher." Well they went higher, and higher and higher, to the point where it's hard to justify buying them for anything other than an investment.
I later got a binder stolen from me that had all my non-basic lands in it (Wastelands, fetch lands, Tolarian Academy, and about 30 others) and cards from Legends, Unlimited and Arabian nights. It also contained some of the better cards I had that where not in decks, but luckily most of my good non-lands cards where in decks.
So that left me with two Serra Sanctums in the land department.
Since they've gone up in price I don't feel comfortable taking them to play with, as it's easy to lose one card, so I'm thinking of proxying those. I am seriously considering buying a Man Crypt though, as I think it's going to continue to go up in value.
Sounds like your playgroup is pretty aggressive, I win about 75% of the time I play in my LGS, but I build my deck to look super weak early game and then one shot people turn 10 or so. It's all about the politics.
I'm making a Nicol Bolas, the Ravager discard deck, and was wondering if you have anything similar?
Cool thanks for the info. I've been playing off and on since 1994, but had a bit of bad luck with the high priced cards, got rid of my dual lands way back when I thought, "There's no way they can go any higher." Well they went higher, and higher and higher, to the point where it's hard to justify buying them for anything other than an investment.
I later got a binder stolen from me that had all my non-basic lands in it (Wastelands, fetch lands, Tolarian Academy, and about 30 others) and cards from Legends, Unlimited and Arabian nights. It also contained some of the better cards I had that where not in decks, but luckily most of my good non-lands cards where in decks.
So that left me with two Serra Sanctums in the land department.
Since they've gone up in price I don't feel comfortable taking them to play with, as it's easy to lose one card, so I'm thinking of proxying those. I am seriously considering buying a Man Crypt though, as I think it's going to continue to go up in value.
Sounds like your playgroup is pretty aggressive, I win about 75% of the time I play in my LGS, but I build my deck to look super weak early game and then one shot people turn 10 or so. It's all about the politics.
I'm making a Nicol Bolas, the Ravager discard deck, and was wondering if you have anything similar?
Best,
Andrew
Well, I had my alpha deck at the time stolen, Mana Drain's, duel lands, Moat, to name a few. My friend had his whole collection stolen from the boot of his card at a tournament. Power 9 included. So yeah unfortunately most of us have had to experience this type of thing.
As far as discard decks, I'm not a big fan of them, especially in multiplayer. I'll try and get people with a Mindslicer or Sire of Insanity every so often, but in general it's really hard to make a discard deck effective. You can spend a whole game trying to deny opponents of resources and then a single Wheel of Fortune undoes all the work.
If you can combine discard with using the opponents graveyards then this might have some value.
Yeah, it sucks that people would take cards from others. I have a friend that had his whole collection stolen out of his garage including power 9 and all the money cards from the 90s.
Did you get a chance to test out those two new cards?
I'm thinking more of a deck that does damage when people discard, then playing cards like Wheel of Fortune, and having them lose two life for each card they discard. With Red, Blue and Black it seems very workable.
I think there have to be other cards that let you put all creatures in all grave yards in play under your control too, which would be good in this deck.
Did you get a chance to test out those two new cards?
Yeah, The Locust God proves to be a nice protective creature. I definitely prefer it over Meishin, the Mind Cage as you can put multiple protection on the board. Meishin becomes a must deal with target, so if an opponent has removal then you can get blown out with unprotected planeswalkers. Where as The Locust God you can usually get a few 1/1s so even if The Locust God is removed fairly quickly you are still left with some board presence.
I'm thinking more of a deck that does damage when people discard, then playing cards like Wheel of Fortune, and having them lose two life for each card they discard. With Red, Blue and Black it seems very workable.
I think there have to be other cards that let you put all creatures in all grave yards in play under your control too, which would be good in this deck.
For sure, Nekusar, the Mindrazer does this sort of thing and it's pretty good at dealing damage in both the draw and discard department.
I used to run a brawl deck with Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh at the helm, but it's rotated out now with Standard. It doesn't have anything to do with discard but thought I'd give you the link, as you seem to like the general idea of Nicol Bolas as a general
Well I haven't cracked a locket yet for the draw, but I think it's going to be good. It's probably correct to run Commander's Sphere instead now that I think about it.
The reason I don't have much draw in the deck, outside of the planeswalker, is that most of the time I have cards in hand to cast spells. It's not often that I have more mana than spells. It's normally that I have more spells than mana.
So Rhystic Study would be a fine card, I certainly play it in decks, but actually over the years this card has fallen out of my favor a fair amount. Might just be over-used it, more than anything else.
I actually talked about Reliquary tower in another thread, so what I'm posting here is pretty much verbatim what I had noted down. You'll see that I'm quite decisive on this card in particular, but it does cover overuse of colorless lands as well.
I've been tempted to write a thread on why the worst card in Commander is Reliquary Tower. This card has lost way more games than it has won.
I play a lot of Magic Online, thousands of games. So I get to see patterns a lot.
The number of games where opponents are set back a turn or two because they have failed on the color portion of spells due to playing Reliquary Tower as opposed to a colored land, FAR out-ways the number of times you'll win a game because you've not had to discard a card or two in certain situations.
This is just something that people take for granted. It just seems like a free thing to do right? But it isn't, it will lose you more games, than it will win you games. Fact.
So it's not that it's actually the literally worst card in commander, you know Sorrow's Path probably a little worse, lol. It's just that it's a trap that people think colorless land are "free" and that Reliquary Tower is better than it is. So I call it the worst card in commander, just because it might have literally lost the most games, that might have been otherwise won if they were not handicapped at the start of the game, due to it's popularity (shear number of games it's featured in).
The thing is that in the situations where you are drawing heaps of cards, it's a "more winning" type of card anyway. When I'm discarding cards to hand size, it normally means that I'm going to win anyway.
With sounding too condescending, it's normally players who don't know which cards to keep and which to discard when it comes to maximum hand size. My point is that the number of times I'd win because ofReliquary Tower is very very few. Whats winning you the game is the draw itself, regardless of discarding even some quality cards.
There is always going to be better options for colorless that might actually progress you towards a win, too many that you can't have all of them. Colored mana matters, so colorless lands need to be PREMIUM. Anyway you can see I'm passionate about this subject, because it is a mistake that commander players make, almost by everyone at some stage.
I only run Reliquary tower in two decks, and both have a lot of draw. In one you can easily get 10-15 cards per turn.
Sorrow's Path would actually be pretty good in an deck with enrage, but don't play it as a land play it as a spell. That's what I like about magic so many weird cards to build around.
Any updates on this? Kind of a big set going for us.
Hi, actually I'm in the middle over overhauling the entire primer, as War of the Spark has..sparked..my interest in making sure the content is more fleshed out (deck remains much the same). I plan on doing a set review as part of that.
So the answer is yes there is definitely things to add and talk about. Unfortunately it will take me a few days before I have everything complete.
However I have managed to finish doing animated digital cards of both Will & Rowen Kenrith (literally just finished).
Animated cards have become my sort of patented presentation for my primers (eventually), so if you want to check them out, you can view them at the start of the primer now
Thank you so much, seeing this deck dragged me kicking and screaming back into Magic. What do you think of Invoke Prejudice? Heavy blue cost but I have been testing it over the last week and it works magic
Thank you so much, seeing this deck dragged me kicking and screaming back into Magic. What do you think of Invoke Prejudice? Heavy blue cost but I have been testing it over the last week and it works magic
e; the animated cards are amazing.
Haha, that's good to hear you got back into Magic.
There is a very good stax version of Will & Rowan that can be made, and Invoke Prejudice would be better in that version. However the four blue is not nothing as far as needing the colors, and I personally prefer cards that can deal with creatures already on the board. I used to own an Invoke Prejudice, and I just looked up the price and OMG!
I've been playing a version of Kenriths for months now, but I can't wait to see your updated primer for this deck. Your recent work on Vannifar is one of the best deck tech's I've ever read and I hope this update is just as good.
I popped by to see if you had any updates on cards from War of the Spark, but I also saw you've rotated quite a few cards out of your old list. I was wondering about some of your specific thoughts on them.
Saheeli Rai seems like a good fit, I can't believe I overlooked her. After you get a -2 off of Will with Cloudstone Curio, she can bounce and create mana with some of the bigger mana rocks, meaning you can use her with one of the Chandras or Koth to burn people out in a bounce loop. She's also another way to do bounce loops and generate blue mana, which is what I usually run out of. She doesn't seem to be quite as useful as some of the other Planeswalkers outside of that though. Is there anything else she does that's awesome?
I've been on the fence with Jaya Ballard. I feel like the clause on her mana makes it not that useful because I run so few red instants and sorceries, and Will usually takes care of colorless mana with his -2. I don't feel like I get bottle necked by red mana very often, especially for those card types. Her drawing ability is also less helpful than I like, rummaging is often a lot worse than looting because you don't get to sculpt your hand as well. The drawing ability is only beneficial when I'm already really far ahead and just need to churn through my deck as fast as possible. Her ultimate is a light version of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage unless you get it off really late in to the game, but I find Tamiyo to be much more versatile and generally more helpful for situations where everyone is even on board, or when I'm slightly behind. Am I underestimating the usefulness of the repeatable rummage three on Jaya? Or perhaps I'm overestimating Tamiyo, to me she feels like a better choice for similar pay off just due to being far less narrow than Jaya.
I noticed you cut down on the mass removal in the deck a little bit, notably the land destruction. I still like Obliterate and Jokulhaups because they seal the game for you if you have a Planeswalker or two out, and blowing up Forests is probably my favorite part of Magic. My play group has a dedicated stax player, so we're pretty accustomed to getting hit by Armageddon. Why did you take Ugin, the Spirit Dragon out of the deck? I always find him easy to get an ultimate off of, easy to cast, useful for burning people out in bounce loops with Cloudstone Curio, and his -X is so amazingly powerful for the mass removal. I don't see a lot of downside to him.
Have you tried Locust God at all? I've been trying him out recently. He's a bit on the expensive side for mana, but he's one of the best blockers and he can sometimes win the game on his own if you get wheeling while he's down. I noticed you have Meishin, the Mind Cage in your list, which kind of fulfills a similar purpose for about the same mana cost. Meishin is really powerful but I don't think works well for me because my play group doesn't have many creature decks. There's an argument to be made for Locust God over Thing in the Ice as well, but the looming threat that Thing in the Ice provides is great and it comes hits the board so much sooner. It's a tough choice to make, I don't think there are many slots available for blockers because there's so many other good things to run in this deck.
I think I overlooked it last time I read your primer, but I noticed you have Myriad Landscape in it. I really don't like that it comes in tapped, and you have to pay to crack it, and the lands that it fetches also come in tapped. It feels really clunky every time I get it, and I don't think the upside of getting to pull more lands out of your deck after you have Rowan's emblem is enough to justify the awkward turns it creates. If I'm running a colorless land that comes in tapped, I would prefer Boseiju, Who Shelters All just because it offers counter immunity to important spells like extra turns or Paradox Engine or Deepglow Skate. We talked about Boseiju a bit last time though, and your point on having a lot of spells that can be countered is valid but sometimes it only takes one big thing getting through to seal the game. I honestly don't like lands that come in tapped in the first place though unless they really do something stellar.
Would Great Furnace and Seat of the Synod not be better options than some of the other lands? You can fetch them with Tezzeret if you absolutely get stuck on lands, and you can untap them with some of the artifact untappers in the deck, and you can replay them with Academy Ruins if they get blown up.
There's a couple of cards in War of the Spark that I'm excited to try out, are there any in particular that you're excited to test? Narset's Reversal is at the top of my list. Narset's Reversal is so amazingly powerful and versatile, I think it's by far the best card in the set. Double blue is a little harsh, but I think it's worth it. You can put someone else's game plan on hold, just steal a big effect for yourself, you can use it as a pseudo buyback for your own spells, and you can use it for protection on your own spells. If you go to play an extra turn, and someone uses a counter spell on it, you can use Narset's Reversal on your own extra turn spell to get it back and fizzle their counter spell, AND still get the extra turn. The blow out potential on it is so high and I absolutely love it.
I don't think the pseudo enchantment planeswalkers are all that great, but I'll give them a try. Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor and Narset, Parter of Veils have some good effects, but I'm not sure if they're worth it because they burn themselves out. The new Jace is obviously good, but I really hate Lab Maniac so I won't be testing him much. Spark Double is really exciting, it won't get the cost reduction from Will's -2, but I'm sure that if you clone Will, Teferi, Tezzeret or Chandra that it can go off like crazy and it acts like a second copy of some of the best cards in the deck.
I really wish Firemind Vessel didn't come in tapped. Karn's Bastion is obviously really powerful, and now that I think about it I think I might use it instead of Boseiju or Myriad Landscape just so that I don't end up with too much colorless mana in the deck and avoid having lands come in tapped. Do you have any thoughts on Karn, the Great Creator and Ugin, the Ineffable? They seem pretty good to me, but I'm not sure if they fit in well enough.
Looking to make this deck my last (for now), but I’ve Been struggling with how to go about it. While I’d love to do a more Superfriend’s build, I worry that my lack of Cloudstone Curio and Rings Of Brightearth will make the deck suffer some. Even a storm/spellslinger focused version seems out of place :x
Interplanar Beacon doesn't actually provide colored mana for non-planeswalker, which is a big problem in my opinion.
Ral, Storm Conduit does allow you to copy spells without needing the mana, so I mean it is possible to cast it on turn 4 or whatever and then follow it up next turn with a extra turn card (5 mana ones). Getting two turns in a row is probably setting yourself very nicely, so I can't be dismissive of such a great way to sequence and start the game.
I've been playing a version of Kenriths for months now, but I can't wait to see your updated primer for this deck. Your recent work on Vannifar is one of the best deck tech's I've ever read and I hope this update is just as good.
Thanks for the compliment, but I overstated when I said overhaul, I really just meant spruce up, mainly presentation wise. But I did want to talk more about how to play your games a bit more specifically, so adding a "Stages of the game". So don't expect too much actual more content, I just wanted to give the thread a bit of an update.
I popped by to see if you had any updates on cards from War of the Spark, but I also saw you've rotated quite a few cards out of your old list. I was wondering about some of your specific thoughts on them.
Saheeli Rai seems like a good fit, I can't believe I overlooked her. After you get a -2 off of Will with Cloudstone Curio, she can bounce and create mana with some of the bigger mana rocks, meaning you can use her with one of the Chandras or Koth to burn people out in a bounce loop. She's also another way to do bounce loops and generate blue mana, which is what I usually run out of. She doesn't seem to be quite as useful as some of the other Planeswalkers outside of that though. Is there anything else she does that's awesome?
She is in there really to copy mana rocks, especially with Paradox Engine online. There are no real creatures for her to copy in the deck. But I have used her [+1] to kill opponents once I have the Cloudstone Curio loops
I've been on the fence with Jaya Ballard. I feel like the clause on her mana makes it not that useful because I run so few red instants and sorceries, and Will usually takes care of colorless mana with his -2. I don't feel like I get bottle necked by red mana very often, especially for those card types. Her drawing ability is also less helpful than I like, rummaging is often a lot worse than looting because you don't get to sculpt your hand as well. The drawing ability is only beneficial when I'm already really far ahead and just need to churn through my deck as fast as possible. Her ultimate is a light version of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage unless you get it off really late in to the game, but I find Tamiyo to be much more versatile and generally more helpful for situations where everyone is even on board, or when I'm slightly behind. Am I underestimating the usefulness of the repeatable rummage three on Jaya? Or perhaps I'm overestimating Tamiyo, to me she feels like a better choice for similar pay off just due to being far less narrow than Jaya.
Me too, she definitely is sort of good, sort of not good, hard to pin down as a staple. I hardly ever use the add three red mana, so realistically it's her filtering ability and her ultimate, of which I can't even remember the last time I used the [-8].
So yeah if I'm not actually using the other abilities all that much, then really it just pays to look at other options. She might have to make room for other planeswalkers, but I'll need to think on it.
I noticed you cut down on the mass removal in the deck a little bit, notably the land destruction. I still like Obliterate and Jokulhaups because they seal the game for you if you have a Planeswalker or two out, and blowing up Forests is probably my favorite part of Magic. My play group has a dedicated stax player, so we're pretty accustomed to getting hit by Armageddon. Why did you take Ugin, the Spirit Dragon out of the deck? I always find him easy to get an ultimate off of, easy to cast, useful for burning people out in bounce loops with Cloudstone Curio, and his -X is so amazingly powerful for the mass removal. I don't see a lot of downside to him.
Removing the land destruction was 80% who I play with, and 20% not always satisfied. There is no doubt that they are excellent with Will & Rowen, they are a real goal to plan for, as they can just end the game for sure. But although land destruction is not banned within my playgroups, they also don't like it much, and honestly I found myself just not wanting to cast them to piss people off, so I ended up just removing them. If I wanted to be more competitive, then I'd keep Jokulhaups and Obliterate in the deck 100%.
I originally had a plan of bouncing colorless planeswalkers and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon was part of that. But I guess I always found my other planeswalkers were in range of the effective [-X] amounts, and I much prefer card advantage on planeswalkers, so the [+3] was underwhelming. I used to play a Sultai deck where I specifically used his ultimate as the means to "cast" all my other planeswalker, so I do know how good he can be, but at 8 mana I just wasn't feeling it as much.
Have you tried Locust God at all? I've been trying him out recently. He's a bit on the expensive side for mana, but he's one of the best blockers and he can sometimes win the game on his own if you get wheeling while he's down. I noticed you have Meishin, the Mind Cage in your list, which kind of fulfills a similar purpose for about the same mana cost. Meishin is really powerful but I don't think works well for me because my play group doesn't have many creature decks. There's an argument to be made for Locust God over Thing in the Ice as well, but the looming threat that Thing in the Ice provides is great and it comes hits the board so much sooner. It's a tough choice to make, I don't think there are many slots available for blockers because there's so many other good things to run in this deck.
I have played the Locust God in the deck. I basically have a slot which I've rotated around a few cards that offer protection, and currently landed on Meishin, the Mind Cage. They have their advantages and disadvantages. The Locust God allows you to put more permanents into play, meaning spot removal isn't as good once you're setup. However it does require a few turns to get more of a board presence, and doesn't guarantee you can protect yourself, as bigger badder boards can still run you over. Meishin has the advantage of giving you immediate protection, although once it's removed, your are left vulnerable. But it's far more likely to stop all your opponents from doing combat damage. I don't know which is really better, I've had success with both of them.
I guess I've gone with Meishin, because once you cast The Locust God then you really need to prioritize draw to get as many tokens, where as when I stick cage I just hog wild with the planeswalkers.
I think I overlooked it last time I read your primer, but I noticed you have Myriad Landscape in it. I really don't like that it comes in tapped, and you have to pay to crack it, and the lands that it fetches also come in tapped. It feels really clunky every time I get it, and I don't think the upside of getting to pull more lands out of your deck after you have Rowan's emblem is enough to justify the awkward turns it creates. If I'm running a colorless land that comes in tapped, I would prefer Boseiju, Who Shelters All just because it offers counter immunity to important spells like extra turns or Paradox Engine or Deepglow Skate. We talked about Boseiju a bit last time though, and your point on having a lot of spells that can be countered is valid but sometimes it only takes one big thing getting through to seal the game. I honestly don't like lands that come in tapped in the first place though unless they really do something stellar.
Myriad Landscape is a card that I'm pretty happy to have in my opener and just spend turn 3 using it. But as the game goes longer it can become a liability. But on the other hand if you get a nice flow of cards going, then if you have other land drops then you can mitigate playing it for it's slowness. I do have to make room for another colorless land, so it could be the first to go.
Would Great Furnace and Seat of the Synod not be better options than some of the other lands? You can fetch them with Tezzeret if you absolutely get stuck on lands, and you can untap them with some of the artifact untappers in the deck, and you can replay them with Academy Ruins if they get blown up.
I might have even played them in the deck at some stage? I mean I am an advocate of the artifact lands in decks that can really get use of of them. But I might have felt the risk of getting artifact wiped was not worth any of the bonuses. Honestly I'd need a little bit more artifact interaction going on first, but it's getting close, and I am looking at a few more artifact interactions with potential upcoming includes.
There's a couple of cards in War of the Spark that I'm excited to try out, are there any in particular that you're excited to test? Narset's Reversal is at the top of my list. Narset's Reversal is so amazingly powerful and versatile, I think it's by far the best card in the set. Double blue is a little harsh, but I think it's worth it. You can put someone else's game plan on hold, just steal a big effect for yourself, you can use it as a pseudo buyback for your own spells, and you can use it for protection on your own spells. If you go to play an extra turn, and someone uses a counter spell on it, you can use Narset's Reversal on your own extra turn spell to get it back and fizzle their counter spell, AND still get the extra turn. The blow out potential on it is so high and I absolutely love it.
I don't think the pseudo enchantment planeswalkers are all that great, but I'll give them a try. Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor and Narset, Parter of Veils have some good effects, but I'm not sure if they're worth it because they burn themselves out. The new Jace is obviously good, but I really hate Lab Maniac so I won't be testing him much. Spark Double is really exciting, it won't get the cost reduction from Will's -2, but I'm sure that if you clone Will, Teferi, Tezzeret or Chandra that it can go off like crazy and it acts like a second copy of some of the best cards in the deck.
The answer is yes, there are some things I want to add to the deck from War of the Spark. I'll explain the choices and reasonings when I get a bit more time to do a full set review
I really wish Firemind Vessel didn't come in tapped. Karn's Bastion is obviously really powerful, and now that I think about it I think I might use it instead of Boseiju or Myriad Landscape just so that I don't end up with too much colorless mana in the deck and avoid having lands come in tapped. Do you have any thoughts on Karn, the Great Creator and Ugin, the Ineffable? They seem pretty good to me, but I'm not sure if they fit in well enough.
I really like Firemind Vessel actually, I think any artifact that provides two mana is really good. I will discuss this and new Karn and Ugin, they are very note worthy.
Sorry if my answers have been a bit vague, I'm processing my thoughts at the moment, and most likely will be discussing elements you've touched upon, so hopefully fill you in more then.
Looking to make this deck my last (for now), but I’ve Been struggling with how to go about it. While I’d love to do a more Superfriend’s build, I worry that my lack of Cloudstone Curio and Rings Of Brightearth will make the deck suffer some. Even a storm/spellslinger focused version seems out of place :x
Does anyone have any suggestions?
There are a lot of different ways to go with Will & Rowen, so a bit tricky to establish a focus. Will can lead you into a instant and sorcery heavy deck for sure, so it's not like it needs to be "storm" (i.e. completely comboing off casting millions of cards).. just plain good value is very satisfying.
Feel free to throw up a maybe list at some stage (mainly so I can see what you already potentially have) and we can try and figure out something together.
Looking to make this deck my last (for now), but I’ve Been struggling with how to go about it. While I’d love to do a more Superfriend’s build, I worry that my lack of Cloudstone Curio and Rings Of Brightearth will make the deck suffer some. Even a storm/spellslinger focused version seems out of place :x
Does anyone have any suggestions?
There are a lot of different ways to go with Will & Rowen, so a bit tricky to establish a focus. Will can lead you into a instant and sorcery heavy deck for sure, so it's not like it needs to be "storm" (i.e. completely comboing off casting millions of cards).. just plain good value is very satisfying.
Feel free to throw up a maybe list at some stage (mainly so I can see what you already potentially have) and we can try and figure out something together.
The build i’d Like to put together would be big value spells like Apex of Power and the like. It might be a bit more efficient to run a different commander, but I prefer having a deck that can function fine without the commander. I will try to put together a build to post once I have a bit of time or do so
The answer is yes, there are some things I want to add to the deck from War of the Spark. I'll explain the choices and reasonings when I get a bit more time to do a full set review
I really like Firemind Vessel actually, I think any artifact that provides two mana is really good. I will discuss this and new Karn and Ugin, they are very note worthy.
Sorry if my answers have been a bit vague, I'm processing my thoughts at the moment, and most likely will be discussing elements you've touched upon, so hopefully fill you in more then.
No worries on the vagueness, I understand you don't want to put your thoughts out while you're working on something as big as a full set review. I look forward to reading it. You and I have a lot of similar deck building habits and tastes, so I bet you've got some good stuff cooking up for Ugin.
When I deck build, I have what I call "flex slots" which are the non-essential cards that I rotate in and out of the deck or meta decisions. Example for this deck is the slots I used for defenders like Locust God or Meishin, or slots for the non-essential PWs like Tamiyo or Jaya. Meta decisions for example, cards like Reins of Power and Meishin, the Mind Cage are almost useless for me because my playgroup doesn't have a lot of creature based decks in it, or things like Arcane Lighthouse for groups that have a lot of hexproof. I'm hoping you include a short list of cards like that when you update this primer, just to give some ideas for customization and adaptation in the deck without jeopardizing the game plan too heavily.
Did you ever give Desolate Lighthouse a try? It felt pretty good to me when I got going with it just because I love card draw, but I don't like colorless lands very much in this deck.
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I really like the deck and I'm building a similar deck.
I have some questions as to why you chose certain cards.
You only seem to be using Dack Fayden to draw cards, and maybe steal an artifact, but there is no guarantee that an opponent will have a good artifact. Wouldn't Daretti, Scrap Savant be better, it seems that colorless mana is easy to come by in this deck so he would actually be easier to cast and his abilities seem more relevant? Tamiyo, the Moon Sage seems to have really good synergy with the two commanders as well.
What do you think of using Izzet Locket instead of Izzet Signet, if one were to play Daretti, then one could use it as a draw engine and bring it back, not to mention the Locket can go infinite mana and the Signet can't?
I think that Crucible of Worlds would be very powerful in this deck with a Rowan emblem and the fetch lands. I think it would be a better include than Darksteel Ingot. Just wanted to get your thoughts on that one?
I don't totally understand the inclusion of Minamo, School at Water's Edge, it seems to only be there to untap Search for Azcanta, which seems difficult to have both at the same time. It would make sense if you where using Storm the Vault too. Which would actually be very powerful, but would take too long to trigger in many cases.
I was thinking that The Locust God has a lot of potential in this deck, more than Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs which is actually a very good card too, would playing both be better?
I was wondering why Inexorable Tide was not in the deck? With Cloudstone Curio and all those low cost mana producing artifacts it's easy to infinity proliferate.
What was your thought process in choosing those counter spells?
Anyhow, thanks for your time.
But I mean there is nothing to stop your from playing Daretti as well. Honestly I've been trying Jaya Ballard lately and not been too impressed with her, so I could easily see replacing her with Daretti.
I used to play Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, but she under-performed as well. The original idea was that I could use the Rowan [+2] on an opponent for force them to tap their creatures, so that a follow up Tamiyo would allow for some draw. However it never really works out that way. You are more or less trying to kill the board of creatures at all cost, so I end up hardly ever drawing cards from her, and then the [+1] ability isn't impacting the board enough to protect your walkers in a meaningful way.
I also had her in for the ultimate, but actually I just found I was winning games without ever having used her emblem to actually win me the game.
Definitely if you're going to play Izzet Locket play it as well as. The Signets are so good because they are two mana, and out of all the colored mana rocks, Izzet Signet is the best. So cut something like Coalition Relic or Darksteel Ingot first before the Izzet Signet purely based on speed. Actually I think I will replace Darksteel Ingot with Izzet Locket. There is just more upside.
I have tried Crucible of Worlds in many decks and it is always under-performs. I had this discussion with my friends and they came to the same conclusion that it just doesn't do enough.
Often you have drawn enough cards that you are always able to make land drops from your hand, so then the card literally does nothing. Or you might get a situation where you play it out and your graveyard gets removed, and again it does nothing.
My best advise is to try the card out for yourself, and truly note down the times it's good and the times it's basically does nothing. If a card is 50/50, then it's bad. A card needs to be good most of the times in order to make the cut.
Essentially it's a freebie Island. You can get infinite mana with two Rowen emblems, by targeting itself to untap.
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs is the most amazing card in the deck. Honestly this guy has been a brick wall if he is not removed. Opponents literally can't get through to your planeswalker OR your life total unless they have flyers.
The Locust God is a good idea, but find a slot somewhere else. Actually I've been running Meishin, the Mind Cage and it's been a bit slow, so I'll try The Locust God over that card.
I had it in the original list, but I just found it too slow. It's as simply as that.
You might be able to build around it more, but your deck really needs a lot of cantrips to make this card work in a manner that you hope it would.
So Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Portent, Opt, Sleight of Hand, Faithless Looting, these types of cards. At the end of the day, I just don't have room for cantrips with so many specialist combos.
It's a very light on counterspells, I decided that it needs to be a proactive deck, essentially needing to tap out most turns to cast spells. Can't really afford to hold up mana hoping to counter something in general.
But the Pact of Negation and Force of Will do allow for tapping out obviously.
I try and avoid any double colored mana counterspells as much as possible as it can be really hard to have that available at times. So I prefer to run Negate over say Counterspell for that reason. But the upside with Mana Drain is enough to warrant it.
The Mystic Confluence is as much for the draw and returning creatures to hand, rather than the counterspell aspect.
If you wanted to put more counter magic in then that's fine, just keep in mind the spells are relatively mana costly in this deck, so tapping out is kind of expected most games.
Added
+ The Locust God
+ Izzet Locket
Removed
- Meishin, the Mind Cage
- Darksteel Ingot
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
One other question, have you tried Contagion Engine and or the other similar artifacts? That seems like another good way to go infinite proliferate especially with Saheeli, the Gifted, not to mention that there a ways to take Saheeli infinite with the Engine and create infinite copies of your artifacts.
On Minamo, School at Water's Edge, I was thinking of purchasing this card, but I don't want to spend $20 on a card that will mostly be a Island.
Stealing Sol Rings is good, disrupts opponents and gives you more mana, I will reconsider Dack Fayden.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Do you have this deck in real life or are you playing on line? I don't think I've ever seen someone play a Manacrypt since the 90's in games I've had in real life. But it is a perfect card for this deck, I decided to order a proxy as I don't currently have the budget for that all the other cards I'm getting.
Best,
Andrew
Saheeli, the Gifted only covers the colorless portions of cards. But Saheeli Rai can copy a mana rock, like Gilded Lotus or Coveted Jewel, or to a lesser extent Izzet Signet, Coalition Relic, Izzet Locket.
With Will Kenrith making spells cost less, often you're stringing together multiple activation's of him with Rowen emblems or Rings of Brighthearth or The Chain Veil, so the colorless portions of cards are often covered anyway.
The same thing applies with the Cloudstone Curio combos, that it's all the colored portions of spells which need to be covered and not the colorless.
So Saheeli, the Gifted is a little unnecessary in general. The 1/1 Thopter's are a little slow I think to provide much protection. She is not completely without use in the deck, but certainly not as good as you might first think considering what I said.
I play both tabletop with my friends and Magic Online. But I'm going to be caught out here, I use proxies a lot. Long story, but essentially it took a while for my friends to bend to my needs as a deck brewer, but also as a scourge, lol.
They were not too happy about me playing proxy Mana Crypt and the like when we first started and they didn't have the cards themselves, but spend a ton of money on cards. Yes a little unfair, but oh well. So they introduced a no card worth more than $100 rule. Eventually after seeing how good Mana Crypt was after me playing it, they've gone out and bought quite a few for themselves.
Now it's just make any deck that I want. We have a pretty large pool of cards, we've all been playing since 1994, so literally have most cards. So when making decks, most of the cards are covered. But for example when making a new deck, we just use proxy duel lands (for the Underground Seas, Tundra, etc). Same with fetch lands (Windswept Heath, Flooded Strand, etc).
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I later got a binder stolen from me that had all my non-basic lands in it (Wastelands, fetch lands, Tolarian Academy, and about 30 others) and cards from Legends, Unlimited and Arabian nights. It also contained some of the better cards I had that where not in decks, but luckily most of my good non-lands cards where in decks.
So that left me with two Serra Sanctums in the land department.
Since they've gone up in price I don't feel comfortable taking them to play with, as it's easy to lose one card, so I'm thinking of proxying those. I am seriously considering buying a Man Crypt though, as I think it's going to continue to go up in value.
Sounds like your playgroup is pretty aggressive, I win about 75% of the time I play in my LGS, but I build my deck to look super weak early game and then one shot people turn 10 or so. It's all about the politics.
I'm making a Nicol Bolas, the Ravager discard deck, and was wondering if you have anything similar?
Best,
Andrew
As far as discard decks, I'm not a big fan of them, especially in multiplayer. I'll try and get people with a Mindslicer or Sire of Insanity every so often, but in general it's really hard to make a discard deck effective. You can spend a whole game trying to deny opponents of resources and then a single Wheel of Fortune undoes all the work.
If you can combine discard with using the opponents graveyards then this might have some value.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Did you get a chance to test out those two new cards?
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I'm thinking more of a deck that does damage when people discard, then playing cards like Wheel of Fortune, and having them lose two life for each card they discard. With Red, Blue and Black it seems very workable.
And cards like Fraying Omnipotence, Dark Intimations Apex of Power, Torment of Hailfire, Cruel Ultimatum, The Eldest Reborn, Syphon Mind, Wit's End, Expropriate, Crosis, the Purger, Sepulchral Primordial, The Scarab God, Geth's Grimoire are all good spells.
Then run all the Bolas plains walkers.
And then to take advantage of the discards: Waste Not, Raiders' Wake, Animate Dead, Megrim, Liliana's Caress, Painful Quandary.
I think there have to be other cards that let you put all creatures in all grave yards in play under your control too, which would be good in this deck.
For sure, Nekusar, the Mindrazer does this sort of thing and it's pretty good at dealing damage in both the draw and discard department.
I used to run a brawl deck with Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh at the helm, but it's rotated out now with Standard. It doesn't have anything to do with discard but thought I'd give you the link, as you seem to like the general idea of Nicol Bolas as a general
You can check it out here => https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/brawl/decklists/791172
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
And why not include Rhystic study and Reliquary tower?
The reason I don't have much draw in the deck, outside of the planeswalker, is that most of the time I have cards in hand to cast spells. It's not often that I have more mana than spells. It's normally that I have more spells than mana.
So Rhystic Study would be a fine card, I certainly play it in decks, but actually over the years this card has fallen out of my favor a fair amount. Might just be over-used it, more than anything else.
I actually talked about Reliquary tower in another thread, so what I'm posting here is pretty much verbatim what I had noted down. You'll see that I'm quite decisive on this card in particular, but it does cover overuse of colorless lands as well.
I've been tempted to write a thread on why the worst card in Commander is Reliquary Tower. This card has lost way more games than it has won.
I play a lot of Magic Online, thousands of games. So I get to see patterns a lot.
The number of games where opponents are set back a turn or two because they have failed on the color portion of spells due to playing Reliquary Tower as opposed to a colored land, FAR out-ways the number of times you'll win a game because you've not had to discard a card or two in certain situations.
This is just something that people take for granted. It just seems like a free thing to do right? But it isn't, it will lose you more games, than it will win you games. Fact.
So it's not that it's actually the literally worst card in commander, you know Sorrow's Path probably a little worse, lol. It's just that it's a trap that people think colorless land are "free" and that Reliquary Tower is better than it is. So I call it the worst card in commander, just because it might have literally lost the most games, that might have been otherwise won if they were not handicapped at the start of the game, due to it's popularity (shear number of games it's featured in).
The thing is that in the situations where you are drawing heaps of cards, it's a "more winning" type of card anyway. When I'm discarding cards to hand size, it normally means that I'm going to win anyway.
With sounding too condescending, it's normally players who don't know which cards to keep and which to discard when it comes to maximum hand size. My point is that the number of times I'd win because of Reliquary Tower is very very few. Whats winning you the game is the draw itself, regardless of discarding even some quality cards.
There is always going to be better options for colorless that might actually progress you towards a win, too many that you can't have all of them. Colored mana matters, so colorless lands need to be PREMIUM. Anyway you can see I'm passionate about this subject, because it is a mistake that commander players make, almost by everyone at some stage.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Sorrow's Path would actually be pretty good in an deck with enrage, but don't play it as a land play it as a spell. That's what I like about magic so many weird cards to build around.
So the answer is yes there is definitely things to add and talk about. Unfortunately it will take me a few days before I have everything complete.
However I have managed to finish doing animated digital cards of both Will & Rowen Kenrith (literally just finished).
Animated cards have become my sort of patented presentation for my primers (eventually), so if you want to check them out, you can view them at the start of the primer now
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
e; the animated cards are amazing.
There is a very good stax version of Will & Rowan that can be made, and Invoke Prejudice would be better in that version. However the four blue is not nothing as far as needing the colors, and I personally prefer cards that can deal with creatures already on the board. I used to own an Invoke Prejudice, and I just looked up the price and OMG!
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
But I'm thinking on removing Ral and the Beacon.
I popped by to see if you had any updates on cards from War of the Spark, but I also saw you've rotated quite a few cards out of your old list. I was wondering about some of your specific thoughts on them.
Saheeli Rai seems like a good fit, I can't believe I overlooked her. After you get a -2 off of Will with Cloudstone Curio, she can bounce and create mana with some of the bigger mana rocks, meaning you can use her with one of the Chandras or Koth to burn people out in a bounce loop. She's also another way to do bounce loops and generate blue mana, which is what I usually run out of. She doesn't seem to be quite as useful as some of the other Planeswalkers outside of that though. Is there anything else she does that's awesome?
I've been on the fence with Jaya Ballard. I feel like the clause on her mana makes it not that useful because I run so few red instants and sorceries, and Will usually takes care of colorless mana with his -2. I don't feel like I get bottle necked by red mana very often, especially for those card types. Her drawing ability is also less helpful than I like, rummaging is often a lot worse than looting because you don't get to sculpt your hand as well. The drawing ability is only beneficial when I'm already really far ahead and just need to churn through my deck as fast as possible. Her ultimate is a light version of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage unless you get it off really late in to the game, but I find Tamiyo to be much more versatile and generally more helpful for situations where everyone is even on board, or when I'm slightly behind. Am I underestimating the usefulness of the repeatable rummage three on Jaya? Or perhaps I'm overestimating Tamiyo, to me she feels like a better choice for similar pay off just due to being far less narrow than Jaya.
I noticed you cut down on the mass removal in the deck a little bit, notably the land destruction. I still like Obliterate and Jokulhaups because they seal the game for you if you have a Planeswalker or two out, and blowing up Forests is probably my favorite part of Magic. My play group has a dedicated stax player, so we're pretty accustomed to getting hit by Armageddon. Why did you take Ugin, the Spirit Dragon out of the deck? I always find him easy to get an ultimate off of, easy to cast, useful for burning people out in bounce loops with Cloudstone Curio, and his -X is so amazingly powerful for the mass removal. I don't see a lot of downside to him.
Have you tried Locust God at all? I've been trying him out recently. He's a bit on the expensive side for mana, but he's one of the best blockers and he can sometimes win the game on his own if you get wheeling while he's down. I noticed you have Meishin, the Mind Cage in your list, which kind of fulfills a similar purpose for about the same mana cost. Meishin is really powerful but I don't think works well for me because my play group doesn't have many creature decks. There's an argument to be made for Locust God over Thing in the Ice as well, but the looming threat that Thing in the Ice provides is great and it comes hits the board so much sooner. It's a tough choice to make, I don't think there are many slots available for blockers because there's so many other good things to run in this deck.
I think I overlooked it last time I read your primer, but I noticed you have Myriad Landscape in it. I really don't like that it comes in tapped, and you have to pay to crack it, and the lands that it fetches also come in tapped. It feels really clunky every time I get it, and I don't think the upside of getting to pull more lands out of your deck after you have Rowan's emblem is enough to justify the awkward turns it creates. If I'm running a colorless land that comes in tapped, I would prefer Boseiju, Who Shelters All just because it offers counter immunity to important spells like extra turns or Paradox Engine or Deepglow Skate. We talked about Boseiju a bit last time though, and your point on having a lot of spells that can be countered is valid but sometimes it only takes one big thing getting through to seal the game. I honestly don't like lands that come in tapped in the first place though unless they really do something stellar.
Would Great Furnace and Seat of the Synod not be better options than some of the other lands? You can fetch them with Tezzeret if you absolutely get stuck on lands, and you can untap them with some of the artifact untappers in the deck, and you can replay them with Academy Ruins if they get blown up.
There's a couple of cards in War of the Spark that I'm excited to try out, are there any in particular that you're excited to test? Narset's Reversal is at the top of my list. Narset's Reversal is so amazingly powerful and versatile, I think it's by far the best card in the set. Double blue is a little harsh, but I think it's worth it. You can put someone else's game plan on hold, just steal a big effect for yourself, you can use it as a pseudo buyback for your own spells, and you can use it for protection on your own spells. If you go to play an extra turn, and someone uses a counter spell on it, you can use Narset's Reversal on your own extra turn spell to get it back and fizzle their counter spell, AND still get the extra turn. The blow out potential on it is so high and I absolutely love it.
I don't think the pseudo enchantment planeswalkers are all that great, but I'll give them a try. Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor and Narset, Parter of Veils have some good effects, but I'm not sure if they're worth it because they burn themselves out. The new Jace is obviously good, but I really hate Lab Maniac so I won't be testing him much. Spark Double is really exciting, it won't get the cost reduction from Will's -2, but I'm sure that if you clone Will, Teferi, Tezzeret or Chandra that it can go off like crazy and it acts like a second copy of some of the best cards in the deck.
I really wish Firemind Vessel didn't come in tapped. Karn's Bastion is obviously really powerful, and now that I think about it I think I might use it instead of Boseiju or Myriad Landscape just so that I don't end up with too much colorless mana in the deck and avoid having lands come in tapped. Do you have any thoughts on Karn, the Great Creator and Ugin, the Ineffable? They seem pretty good to me, but I'm not sure if they fit in well enough.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
EDH
WOrzhova's PoliticsB
UStensia's SaintW
U1000 FacesB
UIzzet's GambitR
RUBThe Rose's ThornBUR
RUGEternal HuntGUR
UWBArchitect's FoundryBWU
BBlood PactB
I'm on the fence about Ral, Storm Conduit and not convinced on Interplanar Beacon at all.
Interplanar Beacon doesn't actually provide colored mana for non-planeswalker, which is a big problem in my opinion.
Ral, Storm Conduit does allow you to copy spells without needing the mana, so I mean it is possible to cast it on turn 4 or whatever and then follow it up next turn with a extra turn card (5 mana ones). Getting two turns in a row is probably setting yourself very nicely, so I can't be dismissive of such a great way to sequence and start the game.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
She is in there really to copy mana rocks, especially with Paradox Engine online. There are no real creatures for her to copy in the deck. But I have used her [+1] to kill opponents once I have the Cloudstone Curio loops
Me too, she definitely is sort of good, sort of not good, hard to pin down as a staple. I hardly ever use the add three red mana, so realistically it's her filtering ability and her ultimate, of which I can't even remember the last time I used the [-8].
So yeah if I'm not actually using the other abilities all that much, then really it just pays to look at other options. She might have to make room for other planeswalkers, but I'll need to think on it.
Removing the land destruction was 80% who I play with, and 20% not always satisfied. There is no doubt that they are excellent with Will & Rowen, they are a real goal to plan for, as they can just end the game for sure. But although land destruction is not banned within my playgroups, they also don't like it much, and honestly I found myself just not wanting to cast them to piss people off, so I ended up just removing them. If I wanted to be more competitive, then I'd keep Jokulhaups and Obliterate in the deck 100%.
I originally had a plan of bouncing colorless planeswalkers and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon was part of that. But I guess I always found my other planeswalkers were in range of the effective [-X] amounts, and I much prefer card advantage on planeswalkers, so the [+3] was underwhelming. I used to play a Sultai deck where I specifically used his ultimate as the means to "cast" all my other planeswalker, so I do know how good he can be, but at 8 mana I just wasn't feeling it as much.
I have played the Locust God in the deck. I basically have a slot which I've rotated around a few cards that offer protection, and currently landed on Meishin, the Mind Cage. They have their advantages and disadvantages. The Locust God allows you to put more permanents into play, meaning spot removal isn't as good once you're setup. However it does require a few turns to get more of a board presence, and doesn't guarantee you can protect yourself, as bigger badder boards can still run you over. Meishin has the advantage of giving you immediate protection, although once it's removed, your are left vulnerable. But it's far more likely to stop all your opponents from doing combat damage. I don't know which is really better, I've had success with both of them.
I guess I've gone with Meishin, because once you cast The Locust God then you really need to prioritize draw to get as many tokens, where as when I stick cage I just hog wild with the planeswalkers.
Myriad Landscape is a card that I'm pretty happy to have in my opener and just spend turn 3 using it. But as the game goes longer it can become a liability. But on the other hand if you get a nice flow of cards going, then if you have other land drops then you can mitigate playing it for it's slowness. I do have to make room for another colorless land, so it could be the first to go.
I might have even played them in the deck at some stage? I mean I am an advocate of the artifact lands in decks that can really get use of of them. But I might have felt the risk of getting artifact wiped was not worth any of the bonuses. Honestly I'd need a little bit more artifact interaction going on first, but it's getting close, and I am looking at a few more artifact interactions with potential upcoming includes.
The answer is yes, there are some things I want to add to the deck from War of the Spark. I'll explain the choices and reasonings when I get a bit more time to do a full set review
I really like Firemind Vessel actually, I think any artifact that provides two mana is really good. I will discuss this and new Karn and Ugin, they are very note worthy.
Sorry if my answers have been a bit vague, I'm processing my thoughts at the moment, and most likely will be discussing elements you've touched upon, so hopefully fill you in more then.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Feel free to throw up a maybe list at some stage (mainly so I can see what you already potentially have) and we can try and figure out something together.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
The build i’d Like to put together would be big value spells like Apex of Power and the like. It might be a bit more efficient to run a different commander, but I prefer having a deck that can function fine without the commander. I will try to put together a build to post once I have a bit of time or do so
EDH
WOrzhova's PoliticsB
UStensia's SaintW
U1000 FacesB
UIzzet's GambitR
RUBThe Rose's ThornBUR
RUGEternal HuntGUR
UWBArchitect's FoundryBWU
BBlood PactB
No worries on the vagueness, I understand you don't want to put your thoughts out while you're working on something as big as a full set review. I look forward to reading it. You and I have a lot of similar deck building habits and tastes, so I bet you've got some good stuff cooking up for Ugin.
When I deck build, I have what I call "flex slots" which are the non-essential cards that I rotate in and out of the deck or meta decisions. Example for this deck is the slots I used for defenders like Locust God or Meishin, or slots for the non-essential PWs like Tamiyo or Jaya. Meta decisions for example, cards like Reins of Power and Meishin, the Mind Cage are almost useless for me because my playgroup doesn't have a lot of creature based decks in it, or things like Arcane Lighthouse for groups that have a lot of hexproof. I'm hoping you include a short list of cards like that when you update this primer, just to give some ideas for customization and adaptation in the deck without jeopardizing the game plan too heavily.
Did you ever give Desolate Lighthouse a try? It felt pretty good to me when I got going with it just because I love card draw, but I don't like colorless lands very much in this deck.