My personal dislikes are mostly Overwhelming Intellect and Dismantling Blow. I feel as if Intellect is only worth it if your opponents are playing battlecruiser and casting a lot of fatties, so you can consistently get big hits with this spell. Otherwise I'd fear drawing it too late and hastily countering a Wood Elves. Dismantling Blow honestly strikes me as a bit too greedy - my preference is Forsake the Worldly which is much more reliable at both replacing itself and getting rid of threats. Unwind is cute, but I wouldn't run it myself since my meta doesn't have enough interesting noncreatures.
Maybe you can cut a few lands are a choice few counterspells? I feel like you don't have enough. I've already suggested Overwhelming Denial, but useful counterspells are aplenty, like Render Silent, Forbid, Spell Swindle, Confirm Suspicions... even Spell Burst. If mana isn't a big deal late game, these counterspells are powerful value machines that can help you gain enough card advantage to contest a table by yourself.
Other, more subpar options, include Dissolve, Arcane Denial, Time Stop, and some others I can't think of right now.
Other, more subpar options, include ...Arcane Denial...
Arcane Denial is a fantastic counterspell, and I definitely would suggest you consider it.
I've found it to be vital in decks in which mana is an issue. I run it in my Mizzix of the Izmagnus storm deck which can play it for U very easily, and which also critically needs counterspells for protection.
However, this deck is much more durdly and slow, and the OP has said that he's often gotten a ton of mana.
Because of that I'd prioritize card advantage and utility over mana cost, and that's why I'm less keen on recommending it for this deck. Letting opponents draw has nearly always proven to be far more critical than spending 1 or 2 mana in EDH. I would far sooner run Render Silent, Overwhelming Surge or even Dissolve.
But nonetheless, it wouldn't be a bad choice for a counterspell.
I feel as if Intellect is only worth it if your opponents are playing battlecruiser and casting a lot of fatties, so you can consistently get big hits with this spell. Otherwise I'd fear drawing it too late and hastily countering a Wood Elves. Dismantling Blow honestly strikes me as a bit too greedy.
However, this deck is much more durdly and slow, and the OP has said that he's often gotten a ton of mana.
Because of that I'd prioritize card advantage and utility over mana cost.
I think your second quoted comment justifies the use of Overwhelming Intellect and Dismantling Blow. They are played for their ability to help refill your hand as well as their "destroy/counter" effects. For Overwhelming Intellect, it requires a bit of patience. If played against a Wood Elves, it is because the player pulled the trigger on it too early. Against a late game Craterhoof, Eldrazi et al. that isn't cheated out, it can swing the game completely. Cards like this are why EDH was created
I think your second quoted comment justifies the use of Overwhelming Intellect and Dismantling Blow. They are played for their ability to help refill your hand as well as their "destroy/counter" effects. For Overwhelming Intellect, it requires a bit of patience. If played against a Wood Elves, it is because the player pulled the trigger on it too early. Against a late game Craterhoof, Eldrazi et al. that isn't cheated out, it can swing the game completely. Cards like this are why EDH was created
Yes, very much this.
I've always considered Overwhelming Intellect to be more of a draw spell than a permission piece. This is a format where (almost) every deck is guaranteed to run at least one creature, the commander, and this is a deck where keeping up 6+ mana is not a big deal.
I will also say that countering a Wood Elves is pretty sick value. Take out a creature, keep them from ramping a forest, and draw three cards? Not bad for six mana! There will usually be something better to counter, but if Wood Elves is the floor I still very much like the card.
I'm not sold on cutting lands in my build quite yet. 40 lands (/24 in a 60-card deck) is sort of my baseline until the deck proves to me that it can operate reliably with fewer. It may be that I end up scaling back a bit to 38 but that moment is not quite yet.
I did just notice I have a spare Cyclonic Rift laying around. I'll find room for it somewhere before tomorrow. Also, very much looking to finally taking the deck out for a spin!
Final note, I do love Arcane Denial and run it in a few other decks.
I will also say that countering a Wood Elves is pretty sick value. Take out a creature, keep them from ramping a forest, and draw three cards? Not bad for six mana! There will usually be something better to counter, but if Wood Elves is the floor I still very much like the card.
Yeah, Wood Elves is a good example of how good the card is. Even when played "sub-optimally" against a Wood Elves it draws the same number of cards as Jace's Ingenuityand denies an opponent's card for only one more mana. I think I'll go through my boxes and put one in my deck. It's the kind of card that keeps getting forgotten.
A couple of cards I am playing with now, in part just for the look on someone's face if they turn the game around: Platinum Emperion Platinum Angel
I may end up picking just one of the two to run, but can you imagine some infinite combo goes off and you just toss the angel onto the field?
Or Craterhoof and his friends attack and you fog for 8 colorless mana?
I can't wait
I really like the idea of Platinum Angel! The Emperion I'm less keen on, since it solves fewer problem situations, but yeah, a surprise Platinum Angel in response to, say, a Laboratory Maniac trigger sounds like an amazing play.
I did finally get a chance to play last night! I had two three-player games. The first was against Karador, Ghost Chieftain non-combo value and The Mimeoplasm voltron-ish. I had a Relic of Progenitus in hand and ran it out a bit too early, so the two graveyard-based decks ganged up on me in the early turns and I had to hide for a while until a Reclamation Sage took out the Relic. They then fought each other while I recovered a bit, but in the end I was not able to dig deep enough to stop a 40/40 trampling Mimeoplasm and got knocked out. Super frustrating because, after I tapped Arcanis the Omnipotent and came up empty, I checked the next card down and it was a Swords to Plowshares. =/
The second game was against the same Karador deck and a Ramos, Dragon Engine dragon tribal deck. Karador got off to a fantastic start over the first five turns, while I sort of putzed around, with no early mana rocks. I was able to get Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage cast at the end of the fourth turn and lucky-top-decked into a fifth land. The Karador player over-extended his board, looking for a T6 win, and I punished him with an instant-speed Urza's Ruinous Blast. He was able to keep a few of his better things in his graveyard because of a Walking Ballista but the blast gave me enough time to stabilize and I started actually finding mana rocks. The game went back and forth into the late rounds, with each deck threatening to run away with the game at least once.
I was able to win after cranking out a Pull from Tomorrow for x=12 at the end of the Karador player's turn. I had a Yosei, the Morning Star in play and the Ranos player had a Kokusho, the Evening Star. I flew over Karador's defenses with my dragon and Raff (who got Karador up to 18 commander damage thanks to his lack of flyers!) and knocked his life total down to 4. I passed turn. Ramos didn't really have any options other than to try and attack and I cast Rout during his declare attackers phase. EDIT: I should mention Ramos had a Hellkite Charger and would have needed both combat phases to kill me, which is why I waited for his declare attackers phase, to get him to tap more mana before the Rout. Karador died to the Kukusho trigger and I tapped out almost all the Ramos player's lands with Yosei's trigger. On my turn, I dropped Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and the Ramos player, facing an Annihilator 4 12/12 before he could untap, politely conceded when I showed him a Counterspell in my hand.
Cards I found to be as good as promised/much better than I expected:
Monkey Cage - You'll notice in the second game, Karador was knocked out for being super low in life. A good part of the reason why involved a barrel full of Monkeys being let out of their cage in response to his 8-mana general. I was able to chunk his life total for ~24 before a wrath from the Ramos player ended their rampage.
Spot Removal - Oh, man, I wish I had put more in. One freakin' card away from the Swords that probably would have won me the game... I'm also glad I went super hard on the exile-clauses, since I was facing so much graveyard recursion in both games.
Overwhelming Intellect - Cast this twice on Karador and it was maximum feel-goods for me. The resource imbalance it set up probably won me the second game.
Rewind/Unwind - I was a little hesitant about including them, since the initial investment is so high, but having essentially zero-mana counterspells that let me still run out mana rocks EOT really helped. In general, having high mana cost counterspells like Summary Dismissal (which took care of a Surrak Dragonclaw from the Ramos deck) seems a lot better than the cheaper early permission you usually see in U-x decks. I felt like the amount of permission relative to game-plan in the deck was pretty good. I def. couldn't counter everything, but I had enough bounce and removal to make up for it.
Cards I wasn't that impressed by:
Unwinding Clock - I saw it twice and discarded it both times. It never felt worth casting because my mana rocks didn't have that long of a lifetime. Will probably be replaced by some more card draw. Speaking of which,
Card advantage - I wish I'd had more. =/
Burnished Hart - the one time I saw it I sort of wished it was a mana rock. It's a cool effect, but not really worth six mana.
Anyway, that's it for me. Hope the rest of you are having fun and success with your lists too!
I suggest slotting in a couple of good tutors, since it seems most of what you're looking for is consistency. Merchant Scroll seems like it could solve some of your problems. Spot removal? Reality Shift. Mass removal? Evacuation. Draw spell? Take your pick! Muddle the Mixture does double duty here. Its counterspell mode might not be as relevant as you'd like, but it's still a counterspell. Its transmute is what you're looking for - Reality Shift as spot removal yet again, Pull from Tomorrow as a draw spell, Counterspell as a real counterspell. But equally important, it can also fetch mana rocks.
The Trinket Mage, Treasure Mage, Trophy Mage might not be instant speed, but they're valuable assets if you have crucial deck pieces, like card engines or mass removal, on artifacts. And again there's Whir of Invention. I'd give them a thought.
Some more suggestions: Baral, Chief of Compliance - instant speed, early defense. Helps you play spells early game, and when you counter stuff, it loots. Dismiss - simple, but effective. Dig Through Time - if it was restricted in Legacy, it's probably a good card. Trail of Evidence - has been a pet card of mine and I'm aching to see a deck that can make use of it. Terrain Generator - seems like you want to draw plenty, and getting those lands stuck in your hand feels somewhat bad. If feel like it could work. Scattering Stroke - since you have so much expensive spells, it might be a Mana Drain in your deck. Capsize - a great attrition machine. Helps deal with PWs and other tricky noncreatures.
If you're looking for a bit more expensive counterspells with value, I suggest again Spell Burst, Spell Swindle and Confirm Suspicions.
EDIT: after a bit of review, it seems In Bolas's Clutches becomes instant speed with Raff, which might make it playable. Keep in mind, this means you can take ANY permanent.
I still think that you're a little light on actual win conditions. Maybe throw in a couple PWs with broken emblems that aren't hard to achieve? Narset, Venser, and new Teferi (f**k you standard prices) would probably be enough.
On that note, another random artifact that could promote planeswalkers but also have fringe utility benefit is Contagion Engine. EDIT: one more random legend that could do well with flash is Lavinia of the Tenth.
Cards I found to be as good as promised/much better than I expected:
Monkey Cage - You'll notice in the second game, Karador was knocked out for being super low in life. A good part of the reason why involved a barrel full of Monkeys being let out of their cage in response to his 8-mana general. I was able to chunk his life total for ~24 before a wrath from the Ramos player ended their rampage.
Oh man, what was their reaction to the Monkey Cage? It's been great in my games, too, and is proof that just going to EDHREC alone doesn't always mean you will get all the best cards. I found Monkey Cage just from doing Gatherer searches. Glad to hear it was fun!
And your games sounded pretty good, even the one you didn't win. You know a deck is good when it is interactive, even in a loss.
Hey everyone! I'm brewing up a Raff deck as well and have really enjoyed the discussion here. Monkey Cage looks like a great gem! I feel like my current list is a bit unfocused and am looking forward to getting some games in this week and narrowing down my strategy. Here is my list if anyone is interested in checking it, I'd appreciate the feedback: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/raff-draw-go-brewing/
My game plan is basically to survive the game long enough with flashy tricks to lock down a win-con. Notable cards I'm running include Emrakul, Isochron Scepter, Paradox Engine, and Mindslaver. I'm typically a very non-combo non-mean type player that hates lockdown wins but I have never been able to build a blue/white deck that has enough teeth to take down a table. Isochron + counterpsell, Paradox Engine, and Mindlsaver can all be really mean cards but I'm not sure how else to have a shot at winning in a fairly competitive meta without shenanigans like this. The upside of these cards is that they all fit and carry their weight in the deck if a combo can't be assembled. I do have the option to infinite Mindslaver someone with Trading Post but I will never do that in game, it's just too dirty.
I may be missing something but In Bolas's Clutches doesn't let someone take back the permanent by spending mana. Did you mean to reference another card?
As for Monkey Cage, yeah, that card got passed around a few times after I played it and was the subject of a few laughs. Even if it's not the best card, I'll probably keep it around for a while just because of the amusement factor.
I don't have the time to address every card that's been suggestion, unfortunately, so just some quick thoughts:
I don't love the ideas of tutors. Most of the good ones are sorcery speed (looking at you, Merchant Scroll!) or have timing restrictions (Mystical Tutor). In other words, they can't turn into the spell I need at the time that I need it. At least for right now, I think big draw effects and redundancy are going to be better.
I'm with AliasIsMagic on In Bolas's Clutches. I don't love the effect. It isn't instant speed if Raff's not around, it's vulnerable to artifact/enchantment destruction (and I saw plenty of that in my games!), and it doesn't solve "global effect" problems. I don't think it's the worst card ever or that no one should run it, but it's not for me personally.
Win Conditions. I didn't really have a problem with closing out games. Against the Mimeoplasm, I lacked sufficient answers and had too many threats in my hand. Against Ramos and Karador, the threats I did draw were sufficient, especially Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. They were smaller games, granted, only three players, but I never felt like it would hopeless.
And planeswalkers specifically. I've been trying to think about why I have reservations about switching to a 'walker-based strategy, and I think I found it: they're just too vulnerable to random aggro. The deck is better set up to stop game-winning attacks and threats than it is to waste its removal on "pesky creature swinging into Venser, the Sojourner." I have a feeling they'd drop in EOT, tick up for one, then be beaten down because I have more important things to do with my mana than protect them. I think creature aggro is the way to go for my list unless the deck is radically retooled for combo.
And planeswalkers specifically. I've been trying to think about why I have reservations about switching to a 'walker-based strategy, and I think I found it: they're just too vulnerable to random aggro. The deck is better set up to stop game-winning attacks and threats than it is to waste its removal on "pesky creature swinging into Venser, the Sojourner." I have a feeling they'd drop in EOT, tick up for one, then be beaten down because I have more important things to do with my mana than protect them. I think creature aggro is the way to go for my list unless the deck is radically retooled for combo.
I ran into this same train of thought when trying to make Raff a PW deck where the goal was simply to acquire as many broken emblems as possible. So, naturally I thought about instant-speedwraths, and ways to preventattackers. However, I discovered that most of the latter effect only applies to you, and doesn't help your planeswalkers.
Onto the next bad idea. This is quickly becoming one of the most frustrating commanders to build around!
I've tooled my list pretty heavily to play with Isochron (9-10 targets) so Whir of Invention is a great way for me to pull it out of my deck. UUU is steep but by turn 4-5 I'm usually there. I could definitely cut the swords, but they do turn Raff into somewhat of a threat in the air and are just solid all around cards. I've been thinking a bit about Blackblade Reforged as it can turn Raff into a serious flying monster in the middle/late stages of the game. Jace Beleren can probably go but my group tends to leave him alone so he's pretty much blue's answer to Phyrexian Arena in my meta. I also like to have a mix of permanent based attrition-y draw and instant/sorcery power draw so I'll probably hold onto him for now. Shpinxes Revelation is suuuuuch a good card in this deck, I would never cut it. Sometimes you pass the turn with Raff and a bunch of answers (and Revelation) and nobody does anything scary, so you can dump like 9-10 mana into this thing and have cards for days. When the whole deck can be played at flash, these kind of flexible draw spells are at a premium. I've been thinking about adding another one. THAT SAID, Memory Jar is a PHENOMENAL idea. I'm adding one right away in place of Cataclysmic Gearhulk which is always super awkward for me to pull off in a way that breaks the symmetry.
I hear what everyone is saying about In Bolas's Clutches and I'm going to eventually cut it. I've only cast it in one game... where it stole an big Elspeth from an Atraxa player right after they proliferated into emblem range. My perspective on the card is definitely skewed toward the positive.
I've been thinking about adding Torpor Orb and Hushwing Griff. My list only has 4-5 EtB creatures and I could easily cut most or all of them without much pain. My meta is pretty saturated with EtB effects so a Torpor Orb can be absolutely brutal at instant speed. Anyone tried this yet? If I went all in with the flashy board control type creatures (that all seem to cost around 3 mana or less) it might even be worth running Teshar...
Instant/Sorcery recursion is tough to come by on legends and artifacts. Anyone tempted to run Bosium Strip? I am!
Raff is definitely proving to be a challenging deck to tune for me, but I'm really enjoying the process. I love open-ended commanders that offer a wide range of possibilities.
[quote from="AliasIsMagic »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/792187-big-mana-blue-white-flash-featuring-raff-capashen?comment=39"]Instant/Sorcery recursion is tough to come by on legends and artifacts. Anyone tempted to run Bosium Strip? I am!
I've thought about giant beaters for this deck to serve as wincons, and a lot of them end up being angels. Iona, Shield of Emeria as an option to lock out your opponents' game plan. Akroma, Angel of Wrath as beatface.inc Avacyn, Angel of Hope as one of the strongest forms of inevitability. Reya Dawnbringer as a reanimation spell that accumulates over time.
That's interesting that you ended up at Angels. I've been rethinking the finishers too and came to a slightly more disturbing conclusion...I think Raff is going to crack some hedrons and let the Eldrazi free.
I mean, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth was pretty much the best win condition I've had so far. New-zilek probably isn't so great, but he is still a 12/12 menace with some draw and random counterspells. Oldamog and Newlamog are permenant destruction, one with a double exile clause (!) and the other with Annihilator 4. I do actually own all of those cards (in fact, all of the titans except Newmrakul) so there aren't any major budget issues, I'll just have to take them out of the deck they're currently in.
I also had a chance to pick up Blackblade Reforged so I'll be testing that out too. I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to cut, but I'll update the OP once I make up my mind. Probably won't be able to play until next week, sadly.
Let me know how the angels work out and I'll let you know how the eldrazi do.
In other news, Bösium Strip is hillarious and I didn't know that card existed. I picked up a copy since it's on the reserved list and I don't want to end up on the wrong end of another random buyout, but I'm not sure that I'm going to try it out yet. Might be fun in a deck with more graveyard order manipulation as a quasi Yawgmoth's Will. Torrential Gearhulk is another good suggestion, but I'm trying to shy away from ETB effects because of the lack of blink/recursion and the presence of Torpor Orb.
She is pricey right now, but Lyra Dawnbringer is a great choice for the deck, I think.
Dropping a 5-power, first striking, lifelink blocker in the air for 5 mana at instant-speed is basically a kill spell.
[quote from="AliasIsMagic »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/792187-big-mana-blue-white-flash-featuring-raff-capashen?comment=39"]Raff is definitely proving to be a challenging deck to tune for me, but I'm really enjoying the process. I love open-ended commanders that offer a wide range of possibilities.
I also go back and forth with how to build Raff. Azorius just has a lot of options. Someday it's walkers and wraths, other times it's u/w blink.
However, at a the end of the day I simply settled with U/W flash + artifacts.
If you're willing to run an untap package, Azor's Gateway is worth the trouble. Flash it in with just Voltaic Key and it's 2 activations, on your turn it's 2 more.
If you're willing to run an untap package, Azor's Gateway is worth the trouble. Flash it in with just Voltaic Key and it's 2 activations, on your turn it's 2 more.
I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not a huge fan of Dowsing Dagger in my version. It's a lot of trouble for what's basically a mana rock. Two mana to drop in, another two to equip, then swing with a creature and hope I connect and nothing goes wrong? Gilded Lotus is a lot less effort for basically the same effect, only the mana is available the second I play the artifact without the need for an attack phase.
I'm also not sure I agree with Azor's Gateway being "worth the trouble". It is A LOT of trouble, even with an untap package, which I remain unconvinced is the best way to take the deck. Besides, there's tons of mana to be had just through instant-speed rocks. The looting effect is somewhat interesting, even if you only loot through lands and never intend to flip the card. But then, we're also playing in Blue, so there's tons of better, cheaper draw options.
I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not a huge fan of Dowsing Dagger in my version. It's a lot of trouble for what's basically a mana rock. Two mana to drop in, another two to equip, then swing with a creature and hope I connect and nothing goes wrong? Gilded Lotus is a lot less effort for basically the same effect, only the mana is available the second I play the artifact without the need for an attack phase.
I'm also not sure I agree with Azor's Gateway being "worth the trouble". It is A LOT of trouble, even with an untap package, which I remain unconvinced is the best way to take the deck. Besides, there's tons of mana to be had just through instant-speed rocks. The looting effect is somewhat interesting, even if you only loot through lands and never intend to flip the card. But then, we're also playing in Blue, so there's tons of better, cheaper draw options.
You commander has flash + flying and allows you to play Dowsing Dagger as though it had flash.
I understand the risks involved. However, you could apply the same stance towards Vehicles and arrive at the conclusion that vehicles aren't worth it either. Gilded Lotus gets exiled by Urza's Ruinous Blast and I figure that the Blast is one of the reasons why you're choosing to play Raff. Lost Vale can stick around for a while.
Azor's Gateway is a too slow card filter. You play it solely for the upside of flipping it. Without going infinite, it's the biggest "Big Mana" you're going to have in Blue-White.
If you don't expect to ever be able to flip it, yeah then don't play it. I'm assuming that any meta where Raff is played would be an environment where plays like this are possible. You're playing White-Blue, so there's better options for your general.
For what it's worth, I did apply the same logic to Vehicles and I did come to the conclusion that they weren't worth playing.
Urza's Ruinous Blast isn't a reason I came to Raff, at least. It's a nice "uh oh!" button and the deck inherently breaks the symmetry by playing more legendaries than average, but it's not something I built around or intend to build around.
Dowsing Dagger is just too slow and too unreliable for me. I'd prefer to have my mana rocks either cost 2cc or less, to power out a T3 Raff, or come into play untapped so they can chain into one another at EOT.
I'm not arguing that Azor's Gateway isn't a wonderful payoff. I'm arguing that it's overkill and that the price you have to pay to get there makes it impractical. Realistically, there's not much difference in my deck between having 14 mana and having 40 mana. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of splashy plays, but I think my deck is currently splashy enough and the trouble involved in getting the Gateway - either five turns or an investment in other deck slots that would serve no purpose but to activate the Gateway - just isn't worth it. If it is for your deck, by all means have at it. For me, just because a play is "possible" doesn't make it the way to go.
The only vehicle I play in my version is Weatherlight, because it needs 3 power (perfect for Raff), flies, and digs 5 cards deep for more spells.
Have you tried Weatherlight, Iansisle?
The other vehicles leave something to be desired, at least in this deck. In a King Macar deck, however...
Unwind is cute, but I wouldn't run it myself since my meta doesn't have enough interesting noncreatures.
Maybe you can cut a few lands are a choice few counterspells? I feel like you don't have enough. I've already suggested Overwhelming Denial, but useful counterspells are aplenty, like Render Silent, Forbid, Spell Swindle, Confirm Suspicions... even Spell Burst. If mana isn't a big deal late game, these counterspells are powerful value machines that can help you gain enough card advantage to contest a table by yourself.
Other, more subpar options, include Dissolve, Arcane Denial, Time Stop, and some others I can't think of right now.
Arcane Denial is a fantastic counterspell, and I definitely would suggest you consider it.
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Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
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MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
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Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI've found it to be vital in decks in which mana is an issue. I run it in my Mizzix of the Izmagnus storm deck which can play it for U very easily, and which also critically needs counterspells for protection.
However, this deck is much more durdly and slow, and the OP has said that he's often gotten a ton of mana.
Because of that I'd prioritize card advantage and utility over mana cost, and that's why I'm less keen on recommending it for this deck. Letting opponents draw has nearly always proven to be far more critical than spending 1 or 2 mana in EDH. I would far sooner run Render Silent, Overwhelming Surge or even Dissolve.
But nonetheless, it wouldn't be a bad choice for a counterspell.
I think your second quoted comment justifies the use of Overwhelming Intellect and Dismantling Blow. They are played for their ability to help refill your hand as well as their "destroy/counter" effects. For Overwhelming Intellect, it requires a bit of patience. If played against a Wood Elves, it is because the player pulled the trigger on it too early. Against a late game Craterhoof, Eldrazi et al. that isn't cheated out, it can swing the game completely. Cards like this are why EDH was created
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
Yes, very much this.
I've always considered Overwhelming Intellect to be more of a draw spell than a permission piece. This is a format where (almost) every deck is guaranteed to run at least one creature, the commander, and this is a deck where keeping up 6+ mana is not a big deal.
I will also say that countering a Wood Elves is pretty sick value. Take out a creature, keep them from ramping a forest, and draw three cards? Not bad for six mana! There will usually be something better to counter, but if Wood Elves is the floor I still very much like the card.
I'm not sold on cutting lands in my build quite yet. 40 lands (/24 in a 60-card deck) is sort of my baseline until the deck proves to me that it can operate reliably with fewer. It may be that I end up scaling back a bit to 38 but that moment is not quite yet.
I did just notice I have a spare Cyclonic Rift laying around. I'll find room for it somewhere before tomorrow. Also, very much looking to finally taking the deck out for a spin!
Final note, I do love Arcane Denial and run it in a few other decks.
Yeah, Wood Elves is a good example of how good the card is. Even when played "sub-optimally" against a Wood Elves it draws the same number of cards as Jace's Ingenuity and denies an opponent's card for only one more mana. I think I'll go through my boxes and put one in my deck. It's the kind of card that keeps getting forgotten.
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
Platinum Emperion
Platinum Angel
I may end up picking just one of the two to run, but can you imagine some infinite combo goes off and you just toss the angel onto the field?
Or Craterhoof and his friends attack and you fog for 8 colorless mana?
I can't wait
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
I did finally get a chance to play last night! I had two three-player games. The first was against Karador, Ghost Chieftain non-combo value and The Mimeoplasm voltron-ish. I had a Relic of Progenitus in hand and ran it out a bit too early, so the two graveyard-based decks ganged up on me in the early turns and I had to hide for a while until a Reclamation Sage took out the Relic. They then fought each other while I recovered a bit, but in the end I was not able to dig deep enough to stop a 40/40 trampling Mimeoplasm and got knocked out. Super frustrating because, after I tapped Arcanis the Omnipotent and came up empty, I checked the next card down and it was a Swords to Plowshares. =/
The second game was against the same Karador deck and a Ramos, Dragon Engine dragon tribal deck. Karador got off to a fantastic start over the first five turns, while I sort of putzed around, with no early mana rocks. I was able to get Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage cast at the end of the fourth turn and lucky-top-decked into a fifth land. The Karador player over-extended his board, looking for a T6 win, and I punished him with an instant-speed Urza's Ruinous Blast. He was able to keep a few of his better things in his graveyard because of a Walking Ballista but the blast gave me enough time to stabilize and I started actually finding mana rocks. The game went back and forth into the late rounds, with each deck threatening to run away with the game at least once.
I was able to win after cranking out a Pull from Tomorrow for x=12 at the end of the Karador player's turn. I had a Yosei, the Morning Star in play and the Ranos player had a Kokusho, the Evening Star. I flew over Karador's defenses with my dragon and Raff (who got Karador up to 18 commander damage thanks to his lack of flyers!) and knocked his life total down to 4. I passed turn. Ramos didn't really have any options other than to try and attack and I cast Rout during his declare attackers phase. EDIT: I should mention Ramos had a Hellkite Charger and would have needed both combat phases to kill me, which is why I waited for his declare attackers phase, to get him to tap more mana before the Rout. Karador died to the Kukusho trigger and I tapped out almost all the Ramos player's lands with Yosei's trigger. On my turn, I dropped Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and the Ramos player, facing an Annihilator 4 12/12 before he could untap, politely conceded when I showed him a Counterspell in my hand.
Cards I found to be as good as promised/much better than I expected:
Cards I wasn't that impressed by:
Anyway, that's it for me. Hope the rest of you are having fun and success with your lists too!
Merchant Scroll seems like it could solve some of your problems. Spot removal? Reality Shift. Mass removal? Evacuation. Draw spell? Take your pick!
Muddle the Mixture does double duty here. Its counterspell mode might not be as relevant as you'd like, but it's still a counterspell. Its transmute is what you're looking for - Reality Shift as spot removal yet again, Pull from Tomorrow as a draw spell, Counterspell as a real counterspell. But equally important, it can also fetch mana rocks.
The Trinket Mage, Treasure Mage, Trophy Mage might not be instant speed, but they're valuable assets if you have crucial deck pieces, like card engines or mass removal, on artifacts. And again there's Whir of Invention. I'd give them a thought.
Some more suggestions:
Baral, Chief of Compliance - instant speed, early defense. Helps you play spells early game, and when you counter stuff, it loots.
Dismiss - simple, but effective.
Dig Through Time - if it was restricted in Legacy, it's probably a good card.
Trail of Evidence - has been a pet card of mine and I'm aching to see a deck that can make use of it.
Terrain Generator - seems like you want to draw plenty, and getting those lands stuck in your hand feels somewhat bad. If feel like it could work.
Scattering Stroke - since you have so much expensive spells, it might be a Mana Drain in your deck.
Capsize - a great attrition machine. Helps deal with PWs and other tricky noncreatures.
If you're looking for a bit more expensive counterspells with value, I suggest again Spell Burst, Spell Swindle and Confirm Suspicions.
EDIT: after a bit of review, it seems In Bolas's Clutches becomes instant speed with Raff, which might make it playable. Keep in mind, this means you can take ANY permanent.
I'll second In Bolas's Clutches.
I still think that you're a little light on actual win conditions. Maybe throw in a couple PWs with broken emblems that aren't hard to achieve? Narset, Venser, and new Teferi (f**k you standard prices) would probably be enough.
On that note, another random artifact that could promote planeswalkers but also have fringe utility benefit is Contagion Engine. EDIT: one more random legend that could do well with flash is Lavinia of the Tenth.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Oh man, what was their reaction to the Monkey Cage? It's been great in my games, too, and is proof that just going to EDHREC alone doesn't always mean you will get all the best cards. I found Monkey Cage just from doing Gatherer searches. Glad to hear it was fun!
And your games sounded pretty good, even the one you didn't win. You know a deck is good when it is interactive, even in a loss.
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
My game plan is basically to survive the game long enough with flashy tricks to lock down a win-con. Notable cards I'm running include Emrakul, Isochron Scepter, Paradox Engine, and Mindslaver. I'm typically a very non-combo non-mean type player that hates lockdown wins but I have never been able to build a blue/white deck that has enough teeth to take down a table. Isochron + counterpsell, Paradox Engine, and Mindlsaver can all be really mean cards but I'm not sure how else to have a shot at winning in a fairly competitive meta without shenanigans like this. The upside of these cards is that they all fit and carry their weight in the deck if a combo can't be assembled. I do have the option to infinite Mindslaver someone with Trading Post but I will never do that in game, it's just too dirty.
I may be missing something but In Bolas's Clutches doesn't let someone take back the permanent by spending mana. Did you mean to reference another card?
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
For my own deck, I swapped out Unwinding Clock with Capsize (great suggestion!) and Burnished Hart with Brainstorm, to help smooth out the early turns.
As for Monkey Cage, yeah, that card got passed around a few times after I played it and was the subject of a few laughs. Even if it's not the best card, I'll probably keep it around for a while just because of the amusement factor.
I don't have the time to address every card that's been suggestion, unfortunately, so just some quick thoughts:
Anyway, hope everyone's having a good week!
I ran into this same train of thought when trying to make Raff a PW deck where the goal was simply to acquire as many broken emblems as possible. So, naturally I thought about instant-speed wraths, and ways to prevent attackers. However, I discovered that most of the latter effect only applies to you, and doesn't help your planeswalkers.
Onto the next bad idea. This is quickly becoming one of the most frustrating commanders to build around!
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
I've tooled my list pretty heavily to play with Isochron (9-10 targets) so Whir of Invention is a great way for me to pull it out of my deck. UUU is steep but by turn 4-5 I'm usually there. I could definitely cut the swords, but they do turn Raff into somewhat of a threat in the air and are just solid all around cards. I've been thinking a bit about Blackblade Reforged as it can turn Raff into a serious flying monster in the middle/late stages of the game. Jace Beleren can probably go but my group tends to leave him alone so he's pretty much blue's answer to Phyrexian Arena in my meta. I also like to have a mix of permanent based attrition-y draw and instant/sorcery power draw so I'll probably hold onto him for now. Shpinxes Revelation is suuuuuch a good card in this deck, I would never cut it. Sometimes you pass the turn with Raff and a bunch of answers (and Revelation) and nobody does anything scary, so you can dump like 9-10 mana into this thing and have cards for days. When the whole deck can be played at flash, these kind of flexible draw spells are at a premium. I've been thinking about adding another one. THAT SAID, Memory Jar is a PHENOMENAL idea. I'm adding one right away in place of Cataclysmic Gearhulk which is always super awkward for me to pull off in a way that breaks the symmetry.
I hear what everyone is saying about In Bolas's Clutches and I'm going to eventually cut it. I've only cast it in one game... where it stole an big Elspeth from an Atraxa player right after they proliferated into emblem range. My perspective on the card is definitely skewed toward the positive.
I've been thinking about adding Torpor Orb and Hushwing Griff. My list only has 4-5 EtB creatures and I could easily cut most or all of them without much pain. My meta is pretty saturated with EtB effects so a Torpor Orb can be absolutely brutal at instant speed. Anyone tried this yet? If I went all in with the flashy board control type creatures (that all seem to cost around 3 mana or less) it might even be worth running Teshar...
Instant/Sorcery recursion is tough to come by on legends and artifacts. Anyone tempted to run Bosium Strip? I am!
Raff is definitely proving to be a challenging deck to tune for me, but I'm really enjoying the process. I love open-ended commanders that offer a wide range of possibilities.
You could also run Torrential Gearhulk for that effect.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Iona, Shield of Emeria as an option to lock out your opponents' game plan.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath as beatface.inc
Avacyn, Angel of Hope as one of the strongest forms of inevitability.
Reya Dawnbringer as a reanimation spell that accumulates over time.
Non-angels:
Zetalpa, Primal Dawn as beatface2.inc... good with swords and such.
I think that, ideally speaking, this deck would benefit most from a Helix Pinnacle effect. There's Darksteel Reactor and Celestial Convergence but they take WAY too much time.
EDIT: I'd forgotten Inkwell Leviathan exists. It might be what this deck needs.
I mean, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth was pretty much the best win condition I've had so far. New-zilek probably isn't so great, but he is still a 12/12 menace with some draw and random counterspells. Oldamog and Newlamog are permenant destruction, one with a double exile clause (!) and the other with Annihilator 4. I do actually own all of those cards (in fact, all of the titans except Newmrakul) so there aren't any major budget issues, I'll just have to take them out of the deck they're currently in.
I also had a chance to pick up Blackblade Reforged so I'll be testing that out too. I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to cut, but I'll update the OP once I make up my mind. Probably won't be able to play until next week, sadly.
Let me know how the angels work out and I'll let you know how the eldrazi do.
In other news, Bösium Strip is hillarious and I didn't know that card existed. I picked up a copy since it's on the reserved list and I don't want to end up on the wrong end of another random buyout, but I'm not sure that I'm going to try it out yet. Might be fun in a deck with more graveyard order manipulation as a quasi Yawgmoth's Will. Torrential Gearhulk is another good suggestion, but I'm trying to shy away from ETB effects because of the lack of blink/recursion and the presence of Torpor Orb.
(Speaking of which, since noshadowkick was thinking about it, Torpor Orb was great for me against that Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck. I'm thinking about adding Hushwing Gryff as well.)
Good hunting, everyone!
Dropping a 5-power, first striking, lifelink blocker in the air for 5 mana at instant-speed is basically a kill spell.
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
I also go back and forth with how to build Raff. Azorius just has a lot of options. Someday it's walkers and wraths, other times it's u/w blink.
However, at a the end of the day I simply settled with U/W flash + artifacts.
How come no one is running Dowsing Dagger?
If you're willing to run an untap package, Azor's Gateway is worth the trouble. Flash it in with just Voltaic Key and it's 2 activations, on your turn it's 2 more.
I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not a huge fan of Dowsing Dagger in my version. It's a lot of trouble for what's basically a mana rock. Two mana to drop in, another two to equip, then swing with a creature and hope I connect and nothing goes wrong? Gilded Lotus is a lot less effort for basically the same effect, only the mana is available the second I play the artifact without the need for an attack phase.
I'm also not sure I agree with Azor's Gateway being "worth the trouble". It is A LOT of trouble, even with an untap package, which I remain unconvinced is the best way to take the deck. Besides, there's tons of mana to be had just through instant-speed rocks. The looting effect is somewhat interesting, even if you only loot through lands and never intend to flip the card. But then, we're also playing in Blue, so there's tons of better, cheaper draw options.
You commander has flash + flying and allows you to play Dowsing Dagger as though it had flash.
I understand the risks involved. However, you could apply the same stance towards Vehicles and arrive at the conclusion that vehicles aren't worth it either. Gilded Lotus gets exiled by Urza's Ruinous Blast and I figure that the Blast is one of the reasons why you're choosing to play Raff. Lost Vale can stick around for a while.
Azor's Gateway is a too slow card filter. You play it solely for the upside of flipping it. Without going infinite, it's the biggest "Big Mana" you're going to have in Blue-White.
If you don't expect to ever be able to flip it, yeah then don't play it. I'm assuming that any meta where Raff is played would be an environment where plays like this are possible. You're playing White-Blue, so there's better options for your general.
Urza's Ruinous Blast isn't a reason I came to Raff, at least. It's a nice "uh oh!" button and the deck inherently breaks the symmetry by playing more legendaries than average, but it's not something I built around or intend to build around.
Dowsing Dagger is just too slow and too unreliable for me. I'd prefer to have my mana rocks either cost 2cc or less, to power out a T3 Raff, or come into play untapped so they can chain into one another at EOT.
I'm not arguing that Azor's Gateway isn't a wonderful payoff. I'm arguing that it's overkill and that the price you have to pay to get there makes it impractical. Realistically, there's not much difference in my deck between having 14 mana and having 40 mana. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of splashy plays, but I think my deck is currently splashy enough and the trouble involved in getting the Gateway - either five turns or an investment in other deck slots that would serve no purpose but to activate the Gateway - just isn't worth it. If it is for your deck, by all means have at it. For me, just because a play is "possible" doesn't make it the way to go.
Have you tried Weatherlight, Iansisle?
The other vehicles leave something to be desired, at least in this deck. In a King Macar deck, however...
EDIT: NVM, it's in your decklist >_>
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.