I think you're right on the power of Awaken the Erstwhile. Being able to empty the hands of your opponents and play with a 'yard-centric Commander sounds like a winning solution for sure.
Have you thought about going into a Waste Not kind of strategy? It seems like there's enough powerful, multi-player discard effects that this could have merit. Windfall and Whispering Madness are both powerful ways to fill up your opponents' yards with tasty Scarab options while also being a way to generate card advantage in some instances. Add in Fraying Omnipotence and Awaken the Erstwhile and I think there's a decent Discard theme you could easily take advantage of.
I decided to go all in on making this deck as fast as possible. No apologies, combo off on turn 6 (it's possible) and play all the nasty cards like Awaken the erstwhile.
I'm going to add in the Mirror-Mad Phantasm and Laboratory Maniac combo to the deck. Basically shuffle in mirror mad's token made from the scarab god which empties the library then resurrect Laboratory Maniac. Going to add in more tutors to help out with this plan. Buried Alive, entomb and Final Parting are all cards that can fetch the combo for me on their own. (You want Mirror-mad in the graveyard preferably, not have to play it from your hand.) Fortunately, the deck already had a built in sac. theme so even if I have to play Mirror-mad from hand I should have a card that will get it into the 'yard soon. Added Ashnod's Altar back in, and considering Altar of Dementia. Altar of Dementia can sac. Mirror-mad to the yard. It also adds some small incremental chance to just mill Mirror-mad into the yard when used. Could be a last ditch Hail Mary when we are going to die by our next turn. Just sac. all creatures except the god and hope to mill Mirror into the 'yard for a resurrection. I also just like that mirror-mad can mill a random, but probably big portion of your library for only 2 mana repeatedly (when it's not a token.) Even without a combo to back it up, that is exactly the kind of milling the deck wants. Cheap, on a creature, repeatable and very thorough.
So I won't go with a total discard theme. What I've been finding along the way is to just include the best resource denial cards from each category, rather then force something like straight discard them which will include inferior cards simply because it's part of the theme. For example I took out Miasmic Mummy for Spellskite recently. Spellskite serves many more functions then mummy, and still fits the theme of resource denial. I know I'll get some people with this, especially when they are playing their voltron style decks.
The deck should eventually have 3 win cons, mirror mad combo, awaken the erstwhile and it's general goodness/resource denial theme/resurrecting creatures.
I'm taking out the Triskelion Mikeaus combo as it was just too expensive to cast reasonably. Also I believe my playgroup has evolved to the point where they aren't going to table flip on me when I bust this combo out I figure if they end up thinking it's too powerful, I'll just start working on my silly/fun zombie tribal deck for this guy. I still hope to have 2 decks sleeved up for The Scarab God some day. One very powerful, one friendly and easy.
Wanted to note, I have Phantasmal Image and Clever Impersonator in the deck. These can clone the actual card Mirror-mad on the battlefield, then be used to mill the deck as they won't have the name Mirror-mad anymore. Trying to find as many ways to be able to use mirror-mad without having to put in the 'yard, or put it in the 'yard when I want.
The Mirror-Mad Phantasm combo IS INSANE!!!! Been goldfishing the deck on tappedout. It's super consistent, comboing off on turns 6-10 nearly every time.
I was surprised by this efficiency, especially because the deck could still be tuned a bit further to make the combo even faster. Extra tuning will wait until after I've actually played the deck with friends. My suspicion is that this will clearly be the most powerful deck in our group and won't feel a need to optimize it even further anytime soon.
Changes:
the eldest reborn--Mirror Mad Phantasm
Triskelion--Entomb
rotting rats--Laboratory Maniac
wurmcoil engine--Corpse conniosseur
slum reaper--phantasmal image
Temple of the False God--Ashnod's Altar
A pleasant surprise of having 2 clone creatures in the deck again is the ability to abuse Mirror-Mad's self-mill function. Instead of needing Mirror-mad in the yard, we simply it play it from our hand and activate the ability. On average, we should mill half of our deck at once. This leaves us a good chance to hit a clone. We resurrect the clone with the god on the last end step before our turn and activate it's ability if we have the mana (or can wait until upkeep if we don't.) At this point, our entire library is in our 'yard and we resurrect/copy Laboratory Maniac and win on the draw step.
This is only if we don't happen to draw Buried Alive, Final Parting, Entomb, Corpse Conniosseur which will all put the Mirror-Mad into the 'yard directly.
This combo's weaknesses are graveyard hate (my meta has practically none of this) and spot removal, especially the exiling kind. Our opponent should just kill Laboratory Maniac before our draw step to cause us to lose the game. However, if one wanted to make this list more competitive you could easily add some more counterspells. The combo is not that hard to protect considering that we only really need the counterspell to protect Lab. Maniac. If they try to kill Mirror-Mad, we can just activate the ability again in response so that it is shuffled away before any removal spell resolves.
To try and ensure the combo goes off we would ideally activate Mirror-mad's clone or Scarab God clone copy on our opponent's last end step. Then we need only 6 mana on our upkeep to both resurrect Lab. Maniac and hold up a counterspell as well. Additionally, the deck could include some "skip your draw step" cards like
That way even though we can't draw cards, we can just resurrect from a plethora of creatures from the 'yard and still win the game even if the combo gets countered.
Just remembered! Platinum Angel could keep us alive when resurrected from the 'yard too. Perhaps we can find one creature that can return from the 'yard to the library at our command in case our combo doesn't go off?
So if I continue to upgrade the deck to protect the combo/keep us from dying to the combo it would look something like this.
Obviously more counterspells would be welcome. Muddle the Mixture should go back in as it can both counterspells targeting Laborartory Maniac and be transmuted to find Demonic Tutor which enable the combo further. Spiketail Drakeling could possibly act as a counterspell in a pinch and will guaranteed get put into the 'yard before the combo happens.
As far as "okay, the combo didn't work, but let's not die on our draw step either cards" we have: Inverter of Truth Remember all creature cards will be in our 'yard and the Scarab God will be on the board. If combo gets countered somehow, if we have an extra 4 mana we can resurrect this bad boy and shuffle our 'yard right back into our library before the draw step. If we have the actual Mirror-mad phantasm card out (in the case of shuffling a clone into the deck to attempt the combo.) then we can still activate Mirror-mads ability even without lab. Maniac in the library to gain access to a bunch of creature cards into the graveyard.
Taigam, Sidisi's Hand Should be in the deck anyway in my opinion. A card selection creature that helps fill the 'yard? Yes please. This will help us find cards for the combo faster if we don't have anything else. If the combo fails this can be a panic button to keep us from dying on our draw step. Drawbacks: It's a creature and can be easily removed, in which case we die when we draw a card. We are still susceptible to opponents' cards which makes everyone draw or can target us specifically to draw a card. It's not a fool-proof as Inverter of Truth. Benefits: Is a creature so it can be resurrected so long as we have 4 mana and the god out. A very good card for us regardless of it's protective abilities.
These are all basically the same card for our purposes. Including all 3 is unnecessary I'm sure. Drawbacks: Not a creature, we must have it in hand when the combo is attempted plus an extra 3 mana. Benefits: We get to create a library full of etb creatures in the order we want, while also leaving key creatures behind in the 'yard to be resurrected at instant speed. Even if we don't combo off, we certainly just stacked our deck, pun intended, to win.
haunted Crossroads Is another card I've wanted to play for a while and it could work well here. Benefits: Can be played out early before even attempting the combo. Is beneficial even without the combo. We hav a lot of etb effects, and some games you just want to use Ravenous Chupacabra 5-8 times instead of just 2. Is an enchantment, thus harder to remove. Cheap and reusable activation cost, we can just put the exact creature we want on top at the beginning of each turn. Drawbacks: Must be played before the combo and have at least one B saved up. Can only guarantee as many draws as we have black mana after the combo has failed. If this gets removed before our next turn after our combo attempt, we may be left with only 1-3 cards in our library.
Take away, this deck can do some nasty things. Mirror-Mad is such an interesting card for this deck regardless if the combo happens or not. It may not be the craziest turn 3 combo deck edh has ever seen, but it is extremely resilient in that it need not rely solely on the combo to win. I also like that I can easily modify it's power level for playing with less powerful decks. "Combo too much? Take out Lab. Maniac add this card and it's no longer a combo deck."
Well, the deck is definitely king of the mountain in my small local meta. I probably won't upgrade it too much while they figure out how to deal with it.
Lost my first game as a friend played some black "search opponent's library for a card and exile it" kind of spell. He nabbed Laboratory Maniac. However, my deck was still holding it's own in the game just fine. I ended up losing the game eventually.
Played a 2 headed giant game after that which I don't like. Combo activated on turn 6 or 7 for the win.
Third game in a 4 way free for all with the deck I promised not to use the combo. I could tell people were a bit tired of it at that point and this compromise made them happy. I proceeded to thoroughly trounce them regardless, basically taking on all opponents at once. It should be noted that I could have used the combo again on turn 6 or 7 had I wanted to and no one interrupted it. Took them down with grave titan With the Scarab God followed up with Cyclonic Rift after amassing about 10 creatures on the board. Plaguecrafter did it's job perfectly before that point. Played on turn 3, resurrected around turn 6, this kept me from needing to use cyclonic rift earlier on.
The deck is running great. I'm very pleased. Probably won't make any significant upgrades to anytime soon. The meta needs to catch up lest they hate the deck to the point of not wanting to play against it. I will start working on the silly zombie tribal list in the future for my second decklist for the scarab god.
I am finding that my deck still has a weakness to mono green ramp and stomp decks, so I may consider adding an Acid Rain? Is anyone else having issues with this and how have you dealt with it?
Are you playing the combo? I would imagine that most times you could just combo off before they get too close to killing you.
Besides adding more of what the deck already has, boardwipes and spot removal should help, I'd consider these: Vengeful Pharaoh to dissuade peeps from attacking you at all. Just point the big gun at someone else and let it do it's job. Other deathtouch creatures or perhaps a nice Basilisk Collar as we should always have a creature out.
Dissipation Field same idea. Just make it look more appealing to attack other people and you'll stay alive. Ensnaring Bridge if it's in your budget.
If green is going too wide vs. too tall there is Silent Arbiter
Surprised you'd have trouble with green decks though. They seem to fold pretty easily to boardwipes and spot removal which we should have plenty of in the list. What commanders specifically?
p.s. stuffy doll although this won't work if they have too many trample creatures, which is of course green's specialty.
Being a firm proponent of cEDH decks and streamlining, what turns would you like to combo off ideally? I know you mention that you can reliably combo off on T6, but that seems quite slow to me. I'd like to offer suggestions that would streamline your cEDH Combo list, especially since I think it's such a unique combo as well, but it sounds like you might be breaking your meta with it already. If that's the case, than my suggestions may not be relevant to what you're wanting to do?
Being a firm proponent of cEDH decks and streamlining, what turns would you like to combo off ideally? I know you mention that you can reliably combo off on T6, but that seems quite slow to me. I'd like to offer suggestions that would streamline your cEDH Combo list, especially since I think it's such a unique combo as well, but it sounds like you might be breaking your meta with it already. If that's the case, than my suggestions may not be relevant to what you're wanting to do?
Please suggest away! Make it as fast as you want. I love deck building just as much as playing the game. I do go back to posts and reference them for later. This combo was first mentioned to me on a previous thread when I was looking for finishers. Months later, decided to upgrade and went back to reference. I'm trying to help my friends out too, told them about Mindlock Orb. Heard them discussing among themselves how to interrupt the combo. My hope is that even if it stomps hard now, the meta will adjust to a higher level, then I can upgrade the deck further. This has been a cycle with my meta over the years.
If I were going to upgrade further without spending too much money I'd do it like this. (Don't feel bad about suggesting expensive cards either, I save up for the really good ones eventually. Just spent my Magic budget for a while getting it to this point however.)
switch thran dynamo for another 2 cost ramp spell. Want to buy diabolic intent for more search and sacrifice potential. Generally the deck could really slim down the number of creatures to just add in more cheap ramp, card draw, and esoteric tutors like Brainspoil which can find the combo for us.
The other upgrade would be to search out even more combos to add to the deck, which should be rather easy given what we're working with.
I'd be intrigued to hear how this combo can become even faster. I say turn 6 is about the earliest and consistent time the combo can pop off. Of course there is magical Christmas land where you could probably shave off a couple of turns. Usually it takes longer then turn 6 anyway. My data-light guess (ghost playing on tappedout.net for a while) suggests the deck combos off on turn 7.5 on average, sometimes taking as long as 9 turns.
Sorry for being long winded, just got excited for responses and wanted to give you more info. to work with. If you can make this combo significantly faster without too much $ I'm extremely intrigued. Still intrigued about ideas that cost $ too, as it is my goal to have a nearly optimized list for very competitive edh list someday. I'll play it outside my meta only if it comes to that.
Are you playing the combo? I would imagine that most times you could just combo off before they get too close to killing you.
Besides adding more of what the deck already has, boardwipes and spot removal should help, I'd consider these: Vengeful Pharaoh to dissuade peeps from attacking you at all. Just point the big gun at someone else and let it do it's job. Other deathtouch creatures or perhaps a nice Basilisk Collar as we should always have a creature out.
Dissipation Field same idea. Just make it look more appealing to attack other people and you'll stay alive. Ensnaring Bridge if it's in your budget.
If green is going too wide vs. too tall there is Silent Arbiter
Surprised you'd have trouble with green decks though. They seem to fold pretty easily to boardwipes and spot removal which we should have plenty of in the list. What commanders specifically?
p.s. stuffy doll although this won't work if they have too many trample creatures, which is of course green's specialty.
Its not any specific commander per se, it is more of the value that they can generate with a board presence, especially as they can ramp faster (usually chaining multiple land ramp spells together). I also have run most of the dimmer instant speed board wipes, but bouncing green's creatures isn't that much of a setback with that many lands. That being said, I still use the discard build (I have 2 other competitive tier decks (Animar and Sisay) which are also still combo builds) which may also be why as that is far slower and grinder build.
Bouncing isn't a boardwipe really. Replace bounce type wipes with destroy creature type wipes. This deck can run an insane amount of wipes as we tend to be the only player who gets value from a boardwipe. Green is pretty susceptible to them. I used to have as many as 7 boardwipes in this list. I've since added more tutors which lessened the number of wipes I needed. There is that one dragon who can boardwipe everything but himself too when there are 5 or more creatures out. Sorry I forget the name.
Bouncing isn't a boardwipe really. Replace bounce type wipes with destroy creature type wipes. This deck can run an insane amount of wipes as we tend to be the only player who gets value from a boardwipe. Green is pretty susceptible to them. I used to have as many as 7 boardwipes in this list. I've since added more tutors which lessened the number of wipes I needed. There is that one dragon who can boardwipe everything but himself too when there are 5 or more creatures out. Sorry I forget the name.
The only issue with most of them is that they are not instant speed, which is why I run Evacuation. The card you are thinking of is Deathbringer Regent.
So I've finally done some overhaul on the deck. The combo is decent, and can win some games. That is still the focus of the deck, but I want the deck to not rely on the combo solely to win.
With the overhaul, I've added many more cheap creatures. Hands with some 2-3 drop creatures seem to be preferable, and it makes sense with the long term game plan. We want creatures out early so we can sac., block or otherwise have them die before the Scarab God hits the field. I've taken out many sorcery card draw spells and replaced them with cheaper creatures that can draw us cards: Shadowmage InfiltratorTomebound Lich while considering Loyal Drake as well. Having many draw spells that can net you 3 or more cards seemed unnecessary in this deck, with how much card advantage the Scarab God provides with its ability. It seems much more useful to play out cheap early creatures, then counting on resurrecting them back later on.
I've also taken out a couple of pieces of ramp. I'd rather play out another creature than spend my turn 3-4 ramping in most scenarios. With plenty of cheap creatures, there is much to do early game. There isn't really a need to ramp into the God early, more a need to put creatures in the yard before he hits. With all creature cards becoming basically 2 cards with the god out, card draw/filtering is handled quite nicely by out creatures. Added Deranged Assistant and Palladium Myr to pad out our creature ramp. Soldevi Adnate, Midnight Reaper and Grim Haruspex all become much better with a plethora of creatures. I find Soldevi Adnate being surprisingly helpful early game as I can often just sac. some early etb effect creature and gain further ramp than possible with Coldsteel Heart for instance.
The non-combo theme of the deck is resource denial. I want many of my creatures to slam down as a 2-4 for 1 as in the case of Plaguecrafter or Burglar Rat. While these effects are merely annoying early game, when the deck keeps dishing them out, over and over again, opponents will wither away under our card advantage/boardpresence/Scarab draining.
The only card that sticks out to me is Concentrate. It’s neither a creature nor a classic instant-speed draw spell, nor is it a harder-to remove permanent like Rhystic Study.
The only card that sticks out to me is Concentrate. It’s neither a creature nor a classic instant-speed draw spell, nor is it a harder-to remove permanent like Rhystic Study.
I like Concentrate still as it's one of the best draw card spells that that cmc. I have been thinking about Phyrexian Arena in it's place. However, there are times when I want to get more cards in my hand asap in order to draw more lands et. After removing basically all of the non-creature based card draw, having a little bit in there is still fine. I'm aiming for overall maximum efficiency. I could see Rain of notions replacing it as it's a bit less color intensive, cheaper, and can fill the graveyard. What do you think?
Any other thoughts on the deck? I'm really liking this "deny opponent's their resources" theme as it folds in nicely with my longer term gameplan. I can gain crazy amounts of card advantage over my opponents with all of the 2-4+ for 1 cards I have going on. It slows them down to the point that I can find my combo, or just out value them while draining life and attacking.
I've already pulled some pretty wacky shenanigans with the discard stuff late game. Play out a plaguecrafter, sac. a rotting rats to it. Unearth rotting rats, play Liliana's specter and get my last 3 opponents down to 1 card between them. It hurts more than it looks early game too. I want as many cards that will hit all of my opponents for a card's worth of value.
Yarok's Fenlurker really made me want to beef up the discard package again. We won't mind the exile clause as it's a completely one-sided effect, and the deck has MANY other ways to get into the graveyard. Additionally, Awaken the erstwhile could very well be my new, most used wincon for the deck. Adding in additional discard, especially the one sided kind, means that my opponents may end up creating fewer 2/2s than me. Either way, discarding the hand is WAY more likely to screw with their game plan than mine once I have the Scarab god plus zombies out.
It is a nasty form of play to be sure. The gloves have come off in my meta though. If people are going to screw with my lands, I'll screw with their hand before they get a chance.
I'm looking at that one too. I'm actually putting it first in my Marchesa, the black rose deck first, as she can just keep creatures coming back at no mana cost. The god would cost 4 to resurrect something that is sacrificed, but it's a bit slower. Still, with all of the etb effects, 4 mana to resurrect something then be able to sac. it to get 2 more cards is appealing. It'd be slower in this deck, but perhaps still quite viable.
Have you thought about going into a Waste Not kind of strategy? It seems like there's enough powerful, multi-player discard effects that this could have merit. Windfall and Whispering Madness are both powerful ways to fill up your opponents' yards with tasty Scarab options while also being a way to generate card advantage in some instances. Add in Fraying Omnipotence and Awaken the Erstwhile and I think there's a decent Discard theme you could easily take advantage of.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm going to add in the Mirror-Mad Phantasm and Laboratory Maniac combo to the deck. Basically shuffle in mirror mad's token made from the scarab god which empties the library then resurrect Laboratory Maniac. Going to add in more tutors to help out with this plan. Buried Alive, entomb and Final Parting are all cards that can fetch the combo for me on their own. (You want Mirror-mad in the graveyard preferably, not have to play it from your hand.) Fortunately, the deck already had a built in sac. theme so even if I have to play Mirror-mad from hand I should have a card that will get it into the 'yard soon. Added Ashnod's Altar back in, and considering Altar of Dementia. Altar of Dementia can sac. Mirror-mad to the yard. It also adds some small incremental chance to just mill Mirror-mad into the yard when used. Could be a last ditch Hail Mary when we are going to die by our next turn. Just sac. all creatures except the god and hope to mill Mirror into the 'yard for a resurrection. I also just like that mirror-mad can mill a random, but probably big portion of your library for only 2 mana repeatedly (when it's not a token.) Even without a combo to back it up, that is exactly the kind of milling the deck wants. Cheap, on a creature, repeatable and very thorough.
So I won't go with a total discard theme. What I've been finding along the way is to just include the best resource denial cards from each category, rather then force something like straight discard them which will include inferior cards simply because it's part of the theme. For example I took out Miasmic Mummy for Spellskite recently. Spellskite serves many more functions then mummy, and still fits the theme of resource denial. I know I'll get some people with this, especially when they are playing their voltron style decks.
The deck should eventually have 3 win cons, mirror mad combo, awaken the erstwhile and it's general goodness/resource denial theme/resurrecting creatures.
I'm taking out the Triskelion Mikeaus combo as it was just too expensive to cast reasonably. Also I believe my playgroup has evolved to the point where they aren't going to table flip on me when I bust this combo out I figure if they end up thinking it's too powerful, I'll just start working on my silly/fun zombie tribal deck for this guy. I still hope to have 2 decks sleeved up for The Scarab God some day. One very powerful, one friendly and easy.
Wanted to note, I have Phantasmal Image and Clever Impersonator in the deck. These can clone the actual card Mirror-mad on the battlefield, then be used to mill the deck as they won't have the name Mirror-mad anymore. Trying to find as many ways to be able to use mirror-mad without having to put in the 'yard, or put it in the 'yard when I want.
I was surprised by this efficiency, especially because the deck could still be tuned a bit further to make the combo even faster. Extra tuning will wait until after I've actually played the deck with friends. My suspicion is that this will clearly be the most powerful deck in our group and won't feel a need to optimize it even further anytime soon.
The combo list
1 phantasmal image
1 Burglar Rat
1 Spellskite
1 Dusk Legion Zealot
1 Baleful Strix
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Soldevi Adnate
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Merciless Executioner
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Fatespinner
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Champion of Wits
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Midnight Reaper
1 Spellseeker
1 Trinket Mage
1 Hostage Taker
1 Ravenous Chupacabra
1 Clever Impersonator
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Mulldrifter
1 Corpse Connoisseur
1 Bloodgift demon
1 Mirror Mad Phantasm
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Grave Titan
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Rune-scarred Demon
1 Skullclamp
1 sensei's Divining top
1 Notion Rain
1 Read the Bones
1 Rhystic Study
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Concentrate
1 Ancient Craving
Tutor 5 (8)
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Buried Alive
1 Final Parting
Ramp 9 (13)
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Coldsteel heart
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Dimir Signet
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Thran Dynamo
Boardwipes/Sacrifice 6
1 cyclonic rift
1 Damnation
1 Grave pact
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Life's Finale
1 All is Dust
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Liliana of the Veil
Land 38
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sunken Hollow
1 command tower
1 watery grave
1 Underground River
1 choked estuary
1 drowned catacomb
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Reflecting Pool
1 temple of deceit
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 jwar isle Refuge
1 fetid pools
1 dismal backwater
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Memorial to Genius
10 swamp
7 island
Changes:
the eldest reborn--Mirror Mad Phantasm
Triskelion--Entomb
rotting rats--Laboratory Maniac
wurmcoil engine--Corpse conniosseur
slum reaper--phantasmal image
Temple of the False God--Ashnod's Altar
A pleasant surprise of having 2 clone creatures in the deck again is the ability to abuse Mirror-Mad's self-mill function. Instead of needing Mirror-mad in the yard, we simply it play it from our hand and activate the ability. On average, we should mill half of our deck at once. This leaves us a good chance to hit a clone. We resurrect the clone with the god on the last end step before our turn and activate it's ability if we have the mana (or can wait until upkeep if we don't.) At this point, our entire library is in our 'yard and we resurrect/copy Laboratory Maniac and win on the draw step.
This is only if we don't happen to draw Buried Alive, Final Parting, Entomb, Corpse Conniosseur which will all put the Mirror-Mad into the 'yard directly.
This combo's weaknesses are graveyard hate (my meta has practically none of this) and spot removal, especially the exiling kind. Our opponent should just kill Laboratory Maniac before our draw step to cause us to lose the game. However, if one wanted to make this list more competitive you could easily add some more counterspells. The combo is not that hard to protect considering that we only really need the counterspell to protect Lab. Maniac. If they try to kill Mirror-Mad, we can just activate the ability again in response so that it is shuffled away before any removal spell resolves.
To try and ensure the combo goes off we would ideally activate Mirror-mad's clone or Scarab God clone copy on our opponent's last end step. Then we need only 6 mana on our upkeep to both resurrect Lab. Maniac and hold up a counterspell as well. Additionally, the deck could include some "skip your draw step" cards like
That way even though we can't draw cards, we can just resurrect from a plethora of creatures from the 'yard and still win the game even if the combo gets countered.
Just remembered! Platinum Angel could keep us alive when resurrected from the 'yard too. Perhaps we can find one creature that can return from the 'yard to the library at our command in case our combo doesn't go off?
Obviously more counterspells would be welcome. Muddle the Mixture should go back in as it can both counterspells targeting Laborartory Maniac and be transmuted to find Demonic Tutor which enable the combo further. Spiketail Drakeling could possibly act as a counterspell in a pinch and will guaranteed get put into the 'yard before the combo happens.
As far as "okay, the combo didn't work, but let's not die on our draw step either cards" we have:
Inverter of Truth Remember all creature cards will be in our 'yard and the Scarab God will be on the board. If combo gets countered somehow, if we have an extra 4 mana we can resurrect this bad boy and shuffle our 'yard right back into our library before the draw step. If we have the actual Mirror-mad phantasm card out (in the case of shuffling a clone into the deck to attempt the combo.) then we can still activate Mirror-mads ability even without lab. Maniac in the library to gain access to a bunch of creature cards into the graveyard.
Taigam, Sidisi's Hand Should be in the deck anyway in my opinion. A card selection creature that helps fill the 'yard? Yes please. This will help us find cards for the combo faster if we don't have anything else. If the combo fails this can be a panic button to keep us from dying on our draw step. Drawbacks: It's a creature and can be easily removed, in which case we die when we draw a card. We are still susceptible to opponents' cards which makes everyone draw or can target us specifically to draw a card. It's not a fool-proof as Inverter of Truth. Benefits: Is a creature so it can be resurrected so long as we have 4 mana and the god out. A very good card for us regardless of it's protective abilities.
- Gravepurge
- footbottom feast
- bone harvest
These are all basically the same card for our purposes. Including all 3 is unnecessary I'm sure. Drawbacks: Not a creature, we must have it in hand when the combo is attempted plus an extra 3 mana. Benefits: We get to create a library full of etb creatures in the order we want, while also leaving key creatures behind in the 'yard to be resurrected at instant speed. Even if we don't combo off, we certainly just stacked our deck, pun intended, to win.haunted Crossroads Is another card I've wanted to play for a while and it could work well here. Benefits: Can be played out early before even attempting the combo. Is beneficial even without the combo. We hav a lot of etb effects, and some games you just want to use Ravenous Chupacabra 5-8 times instead of just 2. Is an enchantment, thus harder to remove. Cheap and reusable activation cost, we can just put the exact creature we want on top at the beginning of each turn. Drawbacks: Must be played before the combo and have at least one B saved up. Can only guarantee as many draws as we have black mana after the combo has failed. If this gets removed before our next turn after our combo attempt, we may be left with only 1-3 cards in our library.
Take away, this deck can do some nasty things. Mirror-Mad is such an interesting card for this deck regardless if the combo happens or not. It may not be the craziest turn 3 combo deck edh has ever seen, but it is extremely resilient in that it need not rely solely on the combo to win. I also like that I can easily modify it's power level for playing with less powerful decks. "Combo too much? Take out Lab. Maniac add this card and it's no longer a combo deck."
Lost my first game as a friend played some black "search opponent's library for a card and exile it" kind of spell. He nabbed Laboratory Maniac. However, my deck was still holding it's own in the game just fine. I ended up losing the game eventually.
Played a 2 headed giant game after that which I don't like. Combo activated on turn 6 or 7 for the win.
Third game in a 4 way free for all with the deck I promised not to use the combo. I could tell people were a bit tired of it at that point and this compromise made them happy. I proceeded to thoroughly trounce them regardless, basically taking on all opponents at once. It should be noted that I could have used the combo again on turn 6 or 7 had I wanted to and no one interrupted it. Took them down with grave titan With the Scarab God followed up with Cyclonic Rift after amassing about 10 creatures on the board. Plaguecrafter did it's job perfectly before that point. Played on turn 3, resurrected around turn 6, this kept me from needing to use cyclonic rift earlier on.
The deck is running great. I'm very pleased. Probably won't make any significant upgrades to anytime soon. The meta needs to catch up lest they hate the deck to the point of not wanting to play against it. I will start working on the silly zombie tribal list in the future for my second decklist for the scarab god.
Besides adding more of what the deck already has, boardwipes and spot removal should help, I'd consider these:
Vengeful Pharaoh to dissuade peeps from attacking you at all. Just point the big gun at someone else and let it do it's job. Other deathtouch creatures or perhaps a nice Basilisk Collar as we should always have a creature out.
Dissipation Field same idea. Just make it look more appealing to attack other people and you'll stay alive.
Ensnaring Bridge if it's in your budget.
If green is going too wide vs. too tall there is Silent Arbiter
Surprised you'd have trouble with green decks though. They seem to fold pretty easily to boardwipes and spot removal which we should have plenty of in the list. What commanders specifically?
p.s. stuffy doll although this won't work if they have too many trample creatures, which is of course green's specialty.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Please suggest away! Make it as fast as you want. I love deck building just as much as playing the game. I do go back to posts and reference them for later. This combo was first mentioned to me on a previous thread when I was looking for finishers. Months later, decided to upgrade and went back to reference. I'm trying to help my friends out too, told them about Mindlock Orb. Heard them discussing among themselves how to interrupt the combo. My hope is that even if it stomps hard now, the meta will adjust to a higher level, then I can upgrade the deck further. This has been a cycle with my meta over the years.
If I were going to upgrade further without spending too much money I'd do it like this. (Don't feel bad about suggesting expensive cards either, I save up for the really good ones eventually. Just spent my Magic budget for a while getting it to this point however.)
switch thran dynamo for another 2 cost ramp spell. Want to buy diabolic intent for more search and sacrifice potential. Generally the deck could really slim down the number of creatures to just add in more cheap ramp, card draw, and esoteric tutors like Brainspoil which can find the combo for us.
The other upgrade would be to search out even more combos to add to the deck, which should be rather easy given what we're working with.
I'd be intrigued to hear how this combo can become even faster. I say turn 6 is about the earliest and consistent time the combo can pop off. Of course there is magical Christmas land where you could probably shave off a couple of turns. Usually it takes longer then turn 6 anyway. My data-light guess (ghost playing on tappedout.net for a while) suggests the deck combos off on turn 7.5 on average, sometimes taking as long as 9 turns.
Sorry for being long winded, just got excited for responses and wanted to give you more info. to work with. If you can make this combo significantly faster without too much $ I'm extremely intrigued. Still intrigued about ideas that cost $ too, as it is my goal to have a nearly optimized list for very competitive edh list someday. I'll play it outside my meta only if it comes to that.
Its not any specific commander per se, it is more of the value that they can generate with a board presence, especially as they can ramp faster (usually chaining multiple land ramp spells together). I also have run most of the dimmer instant speed board wipes, but bouncing green's creatures isn't that much of a setback with that many lands. That being said, I still use the discard build (I have 2 other competitive tier decks (Animar and Sisay) which are also still combo builds) which may also be why as that is far slower and grinder build.
The only issue with most of them is that they are not instant speed, which is why I run Evacuation. The card you are thinking of is Deathbringer Regent.
With the overhaul, I've added many more cheap creatures. Hands with some 2-3 drop creatures seem to be preferable, and it makes sense with the long term game plan. We want creatures out early so we can sac., block or otherwise have them die before the Scarab God hits the field. I've taken out many sorcery card draw spells and replaced them with cheaper creatures that can draw us cards: Shadowmage Infiltrator Tomebound Lich while considering Loyal Drake as well. Having many draw spells that can net you 3 or more cards seemed unnecessary in this deck, with how much card advantage the Scarab God provides with its ability. It seems much more useful to play out cheap early creatures, then counting on resurrecting them back later on.
I've also taken out a couple of pieces of ramp. I'd rather play out another creature than spend my turn 3-4 ramping in most scenarios. With plenty of cheap creatures, there is much to do early game. There isn't really a need to ramp into the God early, more a need to put creatures in the yard before he hits. With all creature cards becoming basically 2 cards with the god out, card draw/filtering is handled quite nicely by out creatures. Added Deranged Assistant and Palladium Myr to pad out our creature ramp. Soldevi Adnate, Midnight Reaper and Grim Haruspex all become much better with a plethora of creatures. I find Soldevi Adnate being surprisingly helpful early game as I can often just sac. some early etb effect creature and gain further ramp than possible with Coldsteel Heart for instance.
The non-combo theme of the deck is resource denial. I want many of my creatures to slam down as a 2-4 for 1 as in the case of Plaguecrafter or Burglar Rat. While these effects are merely annoying early game, when the deck keeps dishing them out, over and over again, opponents will wither away under our card advantage/boardpresence/Scarab draining.
I almost forgot, Awaken the erstwhile looks like a wincon to me.
This is where my list is at now, with some additions from the M20 in place.
1 phantasmal image
1 Rotting Rats
1 Yarok's fenlurker
1 Burglar Rat
1 Spellskite
1 Dusk Legion Zealot
1 Baleful Strix
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Deranged Assistant
1 Soldevi Adnate
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Tomebound Lich
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Palladium Myr
1 Fatespinner
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Champion of Wits
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Midnight Reaper
1 Spellseeker
1 Trinket Mage
1 Hostage Taker
1 Vindictive Lich
1 Ravenous Chupacabra
1 Clever Impersonator
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Mulldrifter
1 Corpse Connoisseur
1 Bloodgift demon
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Mirror Mad Phantasm
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Grave Titan
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Rune-scarred Demon
1 sensei's Divining top
1 Rhystic Study
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Concentrate
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Buried Alive
1 Final Parting
1 Sol Ring
1 Coldsteel heart
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Dimir Signet
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Thran Dynamo
1 cyclonic rift
1 Damnation
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Life's Finale
1 All is Dust
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Awaken the Erstwhile
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sunken Hollow
1 command tower
1 watery grave
1 Underground River
1 choked estuary
1 drowned catacomb
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Reflecting Pool
1 temple of deceit
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 jwar isle Refuge
1 fetid pools
1 dismal backwater
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Memorial to Genius
10 swamp
7 island
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
I like Concentrate still as it's one of the best draw card spells that that cmc. I have been thinking about Phyrexian Arena in it's place. However, there are times when I want to get more cards in my hand asap in order to draw more lands et. After removing basically all of the non-creature based card draw, having a little bit in there is still fine. I'm aiming for overall maximum efficiency. I could see Rain of notions replacing it as it's a bit less color intensive, cheaper, and can fill the graveyard. What do you think?
Any other thoughts on the deck? I'm really liking this "deny opponent's their resources" theme as it folds in nicely with my longer term gameplan. I can gain crazy amounts of card advantage over my opponents with all of the 2-4+ for 1 cards I have going on. It slows them down to the point that I can find my combo, or just out value them while draining life and attacking.
I've already pulled some pretty wacky shenanigans with the discard stuff late game. Play out a plaguecrafter, sac. a rotting rats to it. Unearth rotting rats, play Liliana's specter and get my last 3 opponents down to 1 card between them. It hurts more than it looks early game too. I want as many cards that will hit all of my opponents for a card's worth of value.
Yarok's Fenlurker really made me want to beef up the discard package again. We won't mind the exile clause as it's a completely one-sided effect, and the deck has MANY other ways to get into the graveyard. Additionally, Awaken the erstwhile could very well be my new, most used wincon for the deck. Adding in additional discard, especially the one sided kind, means that my opponents may end up creating fewer 2/2s than me. Either way, discarding the hand is WAY more likely to screw with their game plan than mine once I have the Scarab god plus zombies out.
It is a nasty form of play to be sure. The gloves have come off in my meta though. If people are going to screw with my lands, I'll screw with their hand before they get a chance.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani