I have now played the deck.
I am unhappy with some of the cuts made to bring the deck to 100 cards, to have played it last night. I will need to revisit those cards.
It was suggested a few times to cut Grim Flayer and/or Shardless Agent. I feel they will be powerful value engines in the deck, and want to experience playing with them before making such a decision. Neither came up that game.
I do think you want to diversify the permanent types for reuse, both to increase flexibility and to fully benefit from the Commander's ability. At the moment, I think my artifact selection is a bit lacking for this, and would very much like to find room for Memory Jar.
The one game was sufficient for me to definitively say Lion's Eye Diamond is a mandatory inclusion in Gravetide decks.
However, anyone playing it needs to be aware that overly relying on it makes you incredibly susceptible to graveyard removal. I kept a hand full of black cards, where Lion's Eye was my only source of black mana. A turn 2 Tormod's Crypt effectively locked me out of the game. Luckily, that particular game was slow enough that I was able to draw out of said lock by turn 7.
While not as commanding as Lion's Eye, Mulldrifter was still quite impressive. It is another card I feel should be in every Gravetide deck.
While it did not come up that game, it did leave me with the impression that reactive answers are much weaker than normal with this deck (though that may just have been from the dominance of Lion's Eye that game).
I have never been disappointed to have Stifle in a game of Commander, but this has left me wondering if it is a card to cut.
I played both Defense of the Heart and Contamination that game; while powerful cards, neither was notable. I do feel like this was a symptom of that particular game, and they could easily dominate the game in different pods. More testing is required, particularly for Contamination.
The one major aspect of the deck I would like to address are win conditions. At the moment, it feels problematic to actually end a game. I think I would like to improve the ability to win through combat damage in some way, and possibly add Walking Ballista as additional recursive removal / combo support. Wurmcoil Engine and/or Batterskull seem like they would be strong here as well.
Archive
As of now, there is not a cohesive theme or strategy to the deck. It is currently best described as a goodstuff Value / Control, with a Combo finisher. I may want to focus the deck more at a later time, but for now it is not a concern.
The biggest issue that needs to be addressed for the deck in its current form is... it is 110 cards.
Trying to find cuts at this point is difficult, and suggestions (with reasoning) are welcome. I am hoping to be able to play the deck this Wednesday evening, so sooner is better.
After the deck is playable, I will begin looking to improve it, starting by looking at the mana curve and color weights.
My current primary concerns are survivability (I would really like to find room for Batterskull, Wurmcoil Engine, &/or Maze of Ith), and its ability to finish the game (I expect it needs more redundancy for combos, or a viable method of winning through combat).
Targeted removal feels a bit weak at the moment as well. I may need to find room for things like Dismember or Putrefy later.
Notable Combos the Gravetide+Contamination
At the cost of 2B per turn, Contamination becomes a one-sided soft lock with the Commander.
the Gravetide+Deadeye Navigator+Lion's Eye Diamond
Allows me to generate arbitrarily large amounts of colored mana, and play permanent cards (other than lands) from my graveyard an unlimited number of times.
Without Lion's Eye, Deadeye Navigator still allows additional 'slots' for each permanent type to be played for 1U
Temporal ManipulationorTime Warp+Seasons Past (+ Tutor effect) orEternal Witness (+ Reanimation effect)
Infinite turns. High mana cost to use, and if using Seasons Past in conjunction with a top-of-deck tutor, costs the first draw of each turn.
Card Choices Defense of the Heartvs.Survival of the Fittest
I expect to be playing only one of these two. Which is better will need to be determined through testing, I think, but am currently leaning towards Defense's repeatable sacrifice being more valuable than Survival's tutor. Edit: After actually reviewing the Power of creatures in the deck, Survival may be the better option.
Search for Azcantavs.Attunement
Due to Attunement's high mana cost to use, and increased vulnerability to graveyard removal, I am currently favoring Azcanta. That said, the card type restriction on Azcanta is a significant limitation.
If I ever find room for a draw doubler such as Alhammarret's Archive, I may revisit this decision.
Phyrexian Arenavs.Necropotence
Necropotence has a very real draw back, and as long as I am including powerful self-discard effects, I believe Arena is the superior choice. Lesser colored cost is a nice bonus.
Force of Willvs.Pact of Negation
This really depends on how easily I will be able to pay the alternate cost for Force of Will. I have not really looked at the color distribution yet, so am using Force as the default. If it proves to be too inconsistent during play (or I get around to running the statistics), it will be exchanged for Pact.
I got to see this deck in action just now. I had no idea Sultai Bomberman is a thing. I learned. It turns out Lion Eye's Diamond is one hell of card with Muldrotha. Deadeye Navigator makes for unbounded mana and blinks. I got all my permanents bounced with Venser, Shaper Savant and lost to commander damage.
The deck performed reasonably well against a combo-oriented Riku of Two Reflections list, a Lazav, Dimir Mastermind control/value deck, and my Dakkon list (control/voltron with RKF-art theme). Muldrotha kept on threatening to combo or outvalue us despite multiple pieces of graveyard hate. I'm impressed by its grinding ability.
Time Warp & Temporal Manipulation are each part of an "I win" combo. Having multiple copies increases both the consistency of such, and resilience against removal. Unlike dedicated combo cards though, they are strong on their own - I rarely do not want one of them. They are also cumulative, not redundant; chaining multiple copies is powerful, even without a recursion engine to loop them.
While Body Double being able to copy creatures from opposing graveyards would be nice, Phyrexian Delver is primarily included to facilitate a winning chain from a single initial Protean Hulk trigger. This is not doable with Body Double.
Additionally, recurring the Delver trigger allows me to incrementally build in a way Body Double does not (so long as life permits).
If I was to build this I would probably make it quite close to my current Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - deck, a bit steady self mill while grabbing some value while milling.
The gravetide itself says only permanents, so the deck should not include many instants and sorceries, so if there is a permanent that also can do the job, that one is preferred.
Private Mod Note
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EDH BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Lurking Zombies. GBG Sapling of Colfenor - Forest Growth and Destruction. RWU Zedruu the Greathearted - Blinking and trading. GWB Teneb the Harvester - Enchantments, you lose life I gain life. RRR Neheb the Eternal - Ping people for mana burn.
I understand that both extra-turn effects are combo pieces - I run three extra-turn spells in my Kruphix deck - but if you're looking to things to cut, cards that do the same can be places to start. And multiple extra-turn spells sometimes make opening hands clunky.
What's your winning line with Hulk? Body Double does work for this common sequence: Hulk trigger for Delver or Double and Viscera Seer --> sac Hulk or Hulk copy --> Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Walking Ballista, execute combo to win. But you don't have Ballista, so I'm not seeing your one-trigger winning line.
Oh, I guess you sac Delver after getting Mike, let it come back from undying, and get Hulk against to find Triskelion? That's cool but does require starting at 15+ life.
As far as other Phyrexian Revoker strikes me as underwhelming here (and in EDH in general). It was fine last night, but not amazing. (I'm not sure exactly what 99 you sleeved up.)
Given the intended purpose of Phyrexian Delver to facilitate a Protean Hulk combo, it is better than Body Double if using Triskelion, and arguably better when using both Triskelion & Walking Ballista, as it will work with either piece, while Body Double will only work with the Ballista.
So then the argument comes to Triskelion vs. Ballista.
Walking Balista is the stronger card on its own, and stronger with Protean Hulk if using Body Double.
Triskelion is the stronger card as part of the Mikaeus combo (it does not require a third piece - repeatable sacrifice - to win with, as Ballista does), and is stronger in conjunction with other forms of recursion. This is most notably relevant with Deadeye Navigator & Defense of the Heart.
Given that, Triskelion is the stronger inclusion in the deck. I would like to include Walking Ballista as well, and if I do may reconsider Phyrexian Delver vs. Body Double. Until then, the Delver is by far the better option.
Phyrexian Revoker (& Pithing Needle) have both been consistently powerful cards in any deck able to 'reset' the named card. So much so that I include them in the same category as things like Swords to Plowshares and Mana Drain - a mandatory inclusion in any deck capable of using them (in this case, 'using' means the aforementioned resetting of named cards).
They have never been underwhelming, and are horribly underplayed in general.
Other cards I would currently like to find cuts to include:
I see the advantage of having the Mike-Trike combo, definitely, but Walking Ballista is so much better on its own or in conjunction with Muldrotha. Trike doesn't go back to the yard on its own, while Ballista does, so you can cast Ballista every turn with Muldrotha around.
How about Garruk? Has he been pulling his weight in testing? I'm not sure he's at the power level of the rest of the deck, though I can see the rationale for having as many decent planeswalkers as possible to maximize Muldrotha's ability.
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6 Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Land (36)
0 Swamp
0 Swamp
0 Swamp
0 Swamp
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Forest
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Island
0 Cabal Pit
0 Centaur Garden
0 Cephalid Coliseum
0 Underground Sea
0 Bayou
0 Tropical Island
0 Flooded Strand
0 Marsh Flats
0 Polluted Delta
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Wooded Foothills
0 Windswept Heath
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Alchemist's Refuge
0 Command Beacon
0 Dust Bowl
0 High Market
0 Mystifying Maze
0 Phyrexian Tower
0 Strip Mine
0 Wasteland
0 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Viscera Seer
2 Withered Wretch
3 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Mindslicer
5 Phyrexian Delver
6 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Caustic Caterpillar
2 Hermit Druid
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eternal Witness
4 Spike Weaver
7 Protean Hulk
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Venser, Shaper Savant
5 Mulldrifter
6 Deadeye Navigator
2 Baleful Strix
3 Shardless Agent
0 Walking Ballista
2 Phyrexian Revoker
6 Triskelion
6 Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalker (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instant / Sorcery (17)
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Beast Within
6 Seasons Past
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Counterspell
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Mana Drain
3 Intuition
3 Windfall
4 Fact or Fiction
5 Force of Will
5 Temporal Manipulation
5 Time Warp
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
4 Defense of the Heart
1 Mystic Remora
3 Pernicious Deed
Artifact (9)
1 Nihil Spellbomb
5 Memory Jar
0 Lion's Eye Diamond
0 Mox Diamond
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Golgari Signet
2 Simic Signet
0 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
[-] Contamination
[-] Grim Flayer
[+] Animate Dead
[+] Walking Ballista
[-] Dig Through Time
[-] Disallow
[-] Nature's Claim
[-] Search for Azcanta
[+] Phantasmal Image
[+] Seal of Primordium
[+] Windfall
[+] Wurmcoil Engine
[-] Coffin Queen
[-] Graveborn Muse
[+] Mindslicer
[+] Memory Jar
[-] Stifle
[+] Time Warp
[-] Merciless Executioner
[-] Snapcaster Mage
[-] Worldly Tutor
[-] Time Warp
[-] Engineered Explosives
[-] Mind Stone
[-] Arbor Elf
[-] Deathrite Shaman
[-] Notion Thief
[-] Greater Good
[-] Claws of Gix
[+] Survival of the Fittest
[-] Sunken Ruins
[-] Twilight Mire
[-] Flooded Grove
[+] Forest
[+] Centaur Garden
[-] Mystifying Maze
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
I am unhappy with some of the cuts made to bring the deck to 100 cards, to have played it last night. I will need to revisit those cards.
It was suggested a few times to cut Grim Flayer and/or Shardless Agent. I feel they will be powerful value engines in the deck, and want to experience playing with them before making such a decision. Neither came up that game.
I do think you want to diversify the permanent types for reuse, both to increase flexibility and to fully benefit from the Commander's ability. At the moment, I think my artifact selection is a bit lacking for this, and would very much like to find room for Memory Jar.
The one game was sufficient for me to definitively say Lion's Eye Diamond is a mandatory inclusion in Gravetide decks.
However, anyone playing it needs to be aware that overly relying on it makes you incredibly susceptible to graveyard removal. I kept a hand full of black cards, where Lion's Eye was my only source of black mana. A turn 2 Tormod's Crypt effectively locked me out of the game. Luckily, that particular game was slow enough that I was able to draw out of said lock by turn 7.
While not as commanding as Lion's Eye, Mulldrifter was still quite impressive. It is another card I feel should be in every Gravetide deck.
While it did not come up that game, it did leave me with the impression that reactive answers are much weaker than normal with this deck (though that may just have been from the dominance of Lion's Eye that game).
I have never been disappointed to have Stifle in a game of Commander, but this has left me wondering if it is a card to cut.
I played both Defense of the Heart and Contamination that game; while powerful cards, neither was notable. I do feel like this was a symptom of that particular game, and they could easily dominate the game in different pods. More testing is required, particularly for Contamination.
The one major aspect of the deck I would like to address are win conditions. At the moment, it feels problematic to actually end a game. I think I would like to improve the ability to win through combat damage in some way, and possibly add Walking Ballista as additional recursive removal / combo support. Wurmcoil Engine and/or Batterskull seem like they would be strong here as well.
Archive
As of now, there is not a cohesive theme or strategy to the deck. It is currently best described as a goodstuff Value / Control, with a Combo finisher. I may want to focus the deck more at a later time, but for now it is not a concern.
The biggest issue that needs to be addressed for the deck in its current form is... it is 110 cards.
Trying to find cuts at this point is difficult, and suggestions (with reasoning) are welcome. I am hoping to be able to play the deck this Wednesday evening, so sooner is better.
After the deck is playable, I will begin looking to improve it, starting by looking at the mana curve and color weights.
My current primary concerns are survivability (I would really like to find room for Batterskull, Wurmcoil Engine, &/or Maze of Ith), and its ability to finish the game (I expect it needs more redundancy for combos, or a viable method of winning through combat).
Targeted removal feels a bit weak at the moment as well. I may need to find room for things like Dismember or Putrefy later.
Notable Combos
the Gravetide + Contamination
At the cost of 2B per turn, Contamination becomes a one-sided soft lock with the Commander.
the Gravetide + Deadeye Navigator + Lion's Eye Diamond
Allows me to generate arbitrarily large amounts of colored mana, and play permanent cards (other than lands) from my graveyard an unlimited number of times.
Without Lion's Eye, Deadeye Navigator still allows additional 'slots' for each permanent type to be played for 1U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion
The primary combo win in the deck. Can be assembled through Protean Hulk or Defense of the Heart
Temporal Manipulation or Time Warp + Seasons Past (+ Tutor effect) or Eternal Witness (+ Reanimation effect)
Infinite turns. High mana cost to use, and if using Seasons Past in conjunction with a top-of-deck tutor, costs the first draw of each turn.
Card Choices
Defense of the Heart vs. Survival of the Fittest
I expect to be playing only one of these two. Which is better will need to be determined through testing, I think, but am currently leaning towards Defense's repeatable sacrifice being more valuable than Survival's tutor.
Edit: After actually reviewing the Power of creatures in the deck, Survival may be the better option.
Search for Azcanta vs. Attunement
Due to Attunement's high mana cost to use, and increased vulnerability to graveyard removal, I am currently favoring Azcanta. That said, the card type restriction on Azcanta is a significant limitation.
If I ever find room for a draw doubler such as Alhammarret's Archive, I may revisit this decision.
Phyrexian Arena vs. Necropotence
Necropotence has a very real draw back, and as long as I am including powerful self-discard effects, I believe Arena is the superior choice. Lesser colored cost is a nice bonus.
Force of Will vs. Pact of Negation
This really depends on how easily I will be able to pay the alternate cost for Force of Will. I have not really looked at the color distribution yet, so am using Force as the default. If it proves to be too inconsistent during play (or I get around to running the statistics), it will be exchanged for Pact.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
The deck performed reasonably well against a combo-oriented Riku of Two Reflections list, a Lazav, Dimir Mastermind control/value deck, and my Dakkon list (control/voltron with RKF-art theme). Muldrotha kept on threatening to combo or outvalue us despite multiple pieces of graveyard hate. I'm impressed by its grinding ability.
As far as suggestions go, do you really need both Temporal Manipulation and Time Warp?
Is Phyrexian Delver better than Body Double here?
Time Warp & Temporal Manipulation are each part of an "I win" combo. Having multiple copies increases both the consistency of such, and resilience against removal. Unlike dedicated combo cards though, they are strong on their own - I rarely do not want one of them. They are also cumulative, not redundant; chaining multiple copies is powerful, even without a recursion engine to loop them.
While Body Double being able to copy creatures from opposing graveyards would be nice, Phyrexian Delver is primarily included to facilitate a winning chain from a single initial Protean Hulk trigger. This is not doable with Body Double.
Additionally, recurring the Delver trigger allows me to incrementally build in a way Body Double does not (so long as life permits).
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
So probably cards like Gurmag Drowner, Taigam, Sidisi's Hand, satyr wayfinder, sudden reclamation, Jarad's orders, Mulch, Forbidden Alchemy, Tracker's Instincts.
The gravetide itself says only permanents, so the deck should not include many instants and sorceries, so if there is a permanent that also can do the job, that one is preferred.
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Lurking Zombies.
GBG Sapling of Colfenor - Forest Growth and Destruction.
RWU Zedruu the Greathearted - Blinking and trading.
GWB Teneb the Harvester - Enchantments, you lose life I gain life.
RRR Neheb the Eternal - Ping people for mana burn.
What's your winning line with Hulk? Body Double does work for this common sequence: Hulk trigger for Delver or Double and Viscera Seer --> sac Hulk or Hulk copy --> Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Walking Ballista, execute combo to win. But you don't have Ballista, so I'm not seeing your one-trigger winning line.
Oh, I guess you sac Delver after getting Mike, let it come back from undying, and get Hulk against to find Triskelion? That's cool but does require starting at 15+ life.
As far as other Phyrexian Revoker strikes me as underwhelming here (and in EDH in general). It was fine last night, but not amazing. (I'm not sure exactly what 99 you sleeved up.)
So then the argument comes to Triskelion vs. Ballista.
Walking Balista is the stronger card on its own, and stronger with Protean Hulk if using Body Double.
Triskelion is the stronger card as part of the Mikaeus combo (it does not require a third piece - repeatable sacrifice - to win with, as Ballista does), and is stronger in conjunction with other forms of recursion. This is most notably relevant with Deadeye Navigator & Defense of the Heart.
Given that, Triskelion is the stronger inclusion in the deck. I would like to include Walking Ballista as well, and if I do may reconsider Phyrexian Delver vs. Body Double. Until then, the Delver is by far the better option.
Phyrexian Revoker (& Pithing Needle) have both been consistently powerful cards in any deck able to 'reset' the named card. So much so that I include them in the same category as things like Swords to Plowshares and Mana Drain - a mandatory inclusion in any deck capable of using them (in this case, 'using' means the aforementioned resetting of named cards).
They have never been underwhelming, and are horribly underplayed in general.
Other cards I would currently like to find cuts to include:
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
How about Garruk? Has he been pulling his weight in testing? I'm not sure he's at the power level of the rest of the deck, though I can see the rationale for having as many decent planeswalkers as possible to maximize Muldrotha's ability.