After talking with some of the people I play with and having an experience that had me in tears, I have decided after a couple months it's time to retire my Kaalia of the Vast angel deck. I've gotten a reputation as a Spike, even though I'm actually a Timmy player, and it seems Kaalia's reputation means that I'm going to continue to be beaten down hard until I switch. After consulting with some wonderful people here I've decided that I'm going with a commander that just happens to be my favorite character from the MtG lore: Avacyn.
First of all, a little bit about me. I've named myself Gabrielle Angelfire because Gabriel Angelfire was the rare I got from my first booster pack, Chronicles. From there I played mostly casually, and in 2002 stopped playing when I moved into the dorms at University of Hawaii. In December of last year I started playing again, tried Modern and disliked competitive play. I have switched to being an EDH player. I bought the Kaalia preconstructed deck online, and have tweaked and added to it, spending quite a bit of money in the process, only to dismantle the deck. I don't want this to happen again.
Note: This section was edited when I changed the focus of the deck from strictly tribal to control.
The main idea of this deck is to have a flavorful build surrounding the story of Innistrad. I've included key players like Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna, Odric, Thalia, and even the villain of the story, Nahiri. My vision is angels, humans and the occasional other working together in a control deck that is flavorful but also effective enough to win in a competitive group on a budget. No expensive fetches or dual lands here. (Note: Ancient Tomb can be replaced with Temple of the False God if you don't own Ancient Tomb and want to make the deck more budget friendly) I've chosen Archangel Avacyn for lore reasons, and also because she's less of a lightning rod than other good Boros generals (I'm looking at you, Gisela, Blade of Goldnight and Aurelia, the Warleader). I will be building the deck a few cards a time until I can afford the whole thing. Some targets are: 10 card draw, at least 12 ramp, and enough targeted removal and board wipes to deal with what my opponents happen to throw at me. I'm looking for a balanced deck that can hold off my opponents with "comes into play tapped" abilities, and a lock to keep creatures from untapping until my board state is right for me to go on the attack with vigilant creatures, most of whom fly. Without further ado, this is what I've come up with after consulting some very smart people on this forum:
I'm gradually changing out my cheap replacements for the cards that belong in the deck. Any other changes to the deck to improve it or ways to cut costs are much appreciated. I already own the other expensive cards on the list, so I don't need to replace them. I still want to hit my threshold of 10 card draw cards, at least 6 targeted removal, At least 3 board wipes, 2 tutors, 2 recursion, 12-14 ramp, and have token generators to help me trigger Avacyn. Thanks in advance for reading and your help.
Day of Judgment is a decent replacement for Wrath too. The cheaper your wraths are (in cmc), the better. One choice to consider as well is Slaughter the Strong if you don't mind that most of your creatures don't survive it; smaller angels will. Windborn Muse can fit in for Archangel of Tithes if you just want defense.
Your curve is extremely high: I count 13 angels at 6+ cmc, the replacements you suggest have 6 angels at 6+ cmc, and that's not counting the wraths and other big spells.
Some relatively cheaper cmc angels that aren't expensive: Angel of Condemnation: reuse EtB effects, remove opponent's creatures until it dies, remove blockers or attackers against you (if you don't mind the opponent getting an EtB) Angel of Finality: Graveyard Hate Angelic Field Marshal: gives all your creatures vigilance if you control your general too. Avacyn, Guardian Angel: She doesn't measure up to the other two, but, the abilities can be used defensively as well as politically. You might surprise yourself with her. Firemane Avenger: Easy-to-trigger ability that removes utility creatures. Guardian Seraph: protects your life total against smaller bits of damage. Herald of the Host: Serra Angel that can swing at multiple opponents at once. Reaper of Flight Moonsilver: Sac outlet.
Out of what you have and are not using to use for replacements: Mother of Runes and Iroas seem the best since one is cheap and repeatable and the other affects the whole team, making them hard to block and kill in combat.
Changes made based on your recommendations. I axed a few of the really expensive angels and spells, added one more card draw in land form Arch of Orazca and hopefully improved the deck in the process. I hope I didn't strip most of the power out of the deck. Any further suggestions are welcome.
A heads up about the [ deck ] tag:
within the [ deck ] [ /deck ] (remove spaces), put #x (Card Name) down a list (you can use the cmc of the card which is common for people or the number of cards for #), and for separating them, just type in a heading above a section. Example:
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General
5x Archangel Avacyn
1x Avacyn, the Purifier
Thanks for the heads up. I'll fix that. I'll also consider those. I may have to cut more expensive angels, and I don't like doing that.. is my mana curve okay now? Should I go with angels and humans in more equal amounts and maybe put in Angel of Glory's Rise? That may not be the best option. I'm also unsure about what to cut to be able to add stuff. I do like Angel of Jubilation because it would turn Kenny's zombie deck OFF completely, and he's a huge threat at the table. Angel of Glory's Rise would screw him over.. but it seems like a lot of hate to put in the deck just for one or two people in a group of people that rotates from week to week. Should I cut Angel of Jubilation then, and put in humans I can sacrifice? I'm not sure I want to make the deck angels and humans, though my ramp with Herald of War would support such a deck just as well as angel tribal. What do you feel would be more effective at the table, given the fact that Archangel Avacyn is strong, but not overly threatening, and has that synergy with non-angels?
Thanks for the heads up. I'll fix that. I'll also consider those. I may have to cut more expensive angels, and I don't like doing that.. is my mana curve okay now? Should I go with angels and humans in more equal amounts and maybe put in Angel of Glory's Rise? That may not be the best option. I'm also unsure about what to cut to be able to add stuff. I do like Angel of Jubilation because it would turn Kenny's zombie deck OFF completely, and he's a huge threat at the table. Angel of Glory's Rise would screw him over.. but it seems like a lot of hate to put in the deck just for one or two people in a group of people that rotates from week to week. Should I cut Angel of Jubilation then, and put in humans I can sacrifice? I'm not sure I want to make the deck angels and humans, though my ramp with Herald of War would support such a deck just as well as angel tribal. What do you feel would be more effective at the table, given the fact that Archangel Avacyn is strong, but not overly threatening, and has that synergy with non-angels?
It's fine to keep Angel of Jubilation in the deck, you just have to play around it if you want creatures that self-sacrifice. The Unicorn is a nice choice since it targets both artifacts and enchantments rather than only one or the other. To choose only a couple of the ones I listed:
Burnished Hart, Wild-Field Scarecrow (early game blockers and manafixing), Capashen Unicorn (removal), Knight-Captain of Eos for the fogs. All of those are useful earlier on in the game as board states develop. Luminous Angel is extremely expensive for its body and token production, and Requiem Angel is best suited for token decks that make more than one type of token so you can turn Human and Soldier tokens into Spirits and other shenanigans. From there, try out the deck and see what seems weakest for other cuts for what you feel like you need in your meta, how fast or slow your deck feels, and other things you need.
Thanks for the heads up. I'll fix that. I'll also consider those. I may have to cut more expensive angels, and I don't like doing that.. is my mana curve okay now? Should I go with angels and humans in more equal amounts and maybe put in Angel of Glory's Rise? That may not be the best option. I'm also unsure about what to cut to be able to add stuff. I do like Angel of Jubilation because it would turn Kenny's zombie deck OFF completely, and he's a huge threat at the table. Angel of Glory's Rise would screw him over.. but it seems like a lot of hate to put in the deck just for one or two people in a group of people that rotates from week to week. Should I cut Angel of Jubilation then, and put in humans I can sacrifice? I'm not sure I want to make the deck angels and humans, though my ramp with Herald of War would support such a deck just as well as angel tribal. What do you feel would be more effective at the table, given the fact that Archangel Avacyn is strong, but not overly threatening, and has that synergy with non-angels?
It's fine to keep Angel of Jubilation in the deck, you just have to play around it if you want creatures that self-sacrifice. The Unicorn is a nice choice since it targets both artifacts and enchantments rather than only one or the other. To choose only a couple of the ones I listed:
Burnished Hart, Wild-Field Scarecrow (early game blockers and manafixing), Capashen Unicorn (removal), Knight-Captain of Eos for the fogs. All of those are useful earlier on in the game as board states develop. Luminous Angel is extremely expensive for its body and token production, and Requiem Angel is best suited for token decks that make more than one type of token so you can turn Human and Soldier tokens into Spirits and other shenanigans. From there, try out the deck and see what seems weakest for other cuts for what you feel like you need in your meta, how fast or slow your deck feels, and other things you need.
I cut the two really expensive angels and replaced them with Capashen Unicorn and Burnished Hart.
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"Cut it down, bury it in the snow, put it to the torch. The rose will still bloom again."
I didn't see your previous thread about the original Kaalia deck and your meta but now that I have, just going to make a couple of comments on that along with this new deck: Zacama, Primal Calamity: big mana Naya, Dino Tribal, Aggro
Edgar Markov: Vamp Tribal, Aggro Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and The Mimeoplasm: Reanimator Ezuri, Claw of Progress: Infect, Aggro Starke of Rath: Mono-Red Control (I like this person's choice)
Note: rest of this is just based upon speculating upon their decks. What you know of what they play is best for changing things to fit the meta
More control overall could really help out surviving long enough for flying fatties to get through their defenses. That evasion is one of your benefits you seem to hold over the rest of the table.
Both your commander and Boros Charm give protection against wraths and similar, and Boros Charm is cheap enough to cast with your own wrath. Two of the decks mentioned are Tri-Color, two dual color, and one mono-color. You could take advantage of that by adding more basics to the deck replacing a lot of the tapped lands in order to set yourself up to use cards like Ruination and From the Ashes (which replaces your destroyed lands with untapped lands so you can tap your lands for mana first, floating what you need and get more out of it than the cost of From the Ashes). Boros Charm also protects your own lands from Ruination.
Some other cards: Volcanic Offering removes two creatures of a reasonable size and two nonbasics at instant speed. Incendiary Command can kill off token swarms, kill a nonbasic land, and everyone discards their hand and draws to their former hand size. Condemn is no Swords to Plowshares nor is it Path to Exile, but with the amount of aggro in your meta, it should serve well enough. Tectonic Edge is not expensive and fits a land slot. Scavenger Grounds wipes out all graveyards, only takes a land slot, and can work with Desert of the Fervent and Desert of the True which if you don't need them you can cycle away. The two deserts aren't necessary for Scavenger Grounds to work but give you more uses out of it. Tormod's Crypt can remove one gy for 0 mana, and (though more expensive to activate), Silent Gravestone meanwhile prevents cards in the gy from being targets of spells and abilities. Note that The Mimeoplasm's ability doesn't target.
For dealing with very specific ability problems, there's Pithing Needle, Sorcerous Spyglass, and Phyrexian Revoker. They turn off not only things like Jarad's abilities, but do a lot depending on how much opponents lean on abilities. Gideon's Intervention, Nevermore, Null Chamber (more risky), and Voidstone Gargoyle each prevent an oppoonent from using a card that could stop your gameplan or kill you. Earthquake, Magmaquake, and Fault Line can wipe out non-flyers leaving your angels untouched, and since they will kill your non-flyers as well, can incidentally flip your Avacyn. Staff of Nin has a high cmc but increases your card draw. Reverberate allows you to counter counters as well as pull off shenanigans by copying opponents' spells. Wild Ricochet is similar for double the cmc, but also redirects the copied spell. Rout is Wrath of God that can be cast at instant speed.
While staff of nin has been suggested as card draw, I truly think that the immortal sun would be a superior choice. However, you are in red/white, which means you should probably run both. I would instead replace chandra with the immortal sun while realizing that it lacks synergy with nahiri. I would still think that the times you have both of them in the same game will be not often. If only for card draw, you might also consider mind's eye.
This is looking really good! Also, it really sucks that you were reduced to tears, I'm really sorry you had that experience, especially when this game is meant to be fun. Nonetheless, hopefully Avacyn does what you want her to. I think she'll be a LOT of fun.
I do have a couple of thoughts on some tweaks:
While staff of nin has been suggested as card draw, I truly think that the immortal sun would be a superior choice. However, you are in red/white, which means you should probably run both. I would instead replace chandra with the immortal sun while realizing that it lacks synergy with nahiri. I would still think that the times you have both of them in the same game will be not often. If only for card draw, you might also consider mind's eye.
This is all valid. Immortal Sun is strong as card draw with control and spell cost reduction - you could almost look at this instead of the Incubator. I see no reason you shouldn't give yourself some redundancy and run either Staff of Nin or Mind's Eye. The other good thing about the Staff, too, is that it can ping a token of yours down to flip Avacyn, so to my mind its worth including.
Have you thought about some trigger doublers? You have some great ETBs, and Avacyn's flip ability is great control. Strionic Resonator could be awesome here - ordinarily I'd suggest Panharmonicon too, but I don't really see it pulling its weight.
As far as your angels go, I can make a couple recommendations -
- There's no reason not to run Twilight Shepherd here - it's good redundancy for Avacyn's flip ability (In the same vein, Faith's Reward is both awesome and loads of fun).
- Angelic Skirmisher sort of does the same thing but worse as Odric, Lunarch Marshal. Can I suggest instead Silverblade Paladin? Resettable, transferrable double strike, for commander damage or combat advantage, I'd think it would be a strong addition.
- You could probably look at finding room for Emeria Shepherd - rewarding you for playing lands is money for jam, and it's worth the CMC.
Chandra, Pyromaster seems like a weak draw option and not much else. I definitely can get behind the earlier monarch suggestion, it really is a great mechanic, and I think you should switch one for the other. Protector of the Crown would be awesome in here, and there's no reason not to run Throne of the High City. Worst case scenario it encourages people to attack into a combat situation you can manipulate to claim your crown, best case its end step draw. Plus, you can recur with Karmic or Bruna to Protector to reset the ability.
You've got some good instants and sorceries you're running here, have you thought about including Sunforger? It's such a strong effect for Boros, and it's dirt cheap. You could look at Isochron Scepter too, but it's probably more of a corner case. I'd maybe cut Pearl Medallion for it.
You do seem still a little concerned about Angel of Jubilation, too. I sort of wanted to reassure you that it's a strong effect that you can definitely play around. Angel of Condemnation can take it off the battlefield whenever you please, Firemane Avenger can take it out altogether and gains you life. And you can get it back when you want it with Karmic or Bruna.
Orim's Thunder actually is pretty good, so you could look at playing. Pretty versatile.
Are you dead set on Decree of Justice/Entreat the Angels as set places in your deck? My concern is that in Boros your manabase is not going to ever be super flush enough to make use of these and STILL hold up mana for optimal plays during combat or other turns. On paper they look fun, but I feel like they're the kind of card you hold onto as they're never optimal enough to play - if you REALLY want angel tokens, you could go for Luminarch Ascnesion. Or you could look at other powerful instants/sorceries instead - I'd like Sphinx's Decree or Silence in here, maybe Deflecting Palm or even Arcbond. Or Insult // Injury.
Lots to think about, sorry to inundate you. Hope the feedback is helpful!
These are all awesome suggestions, but I'm worried about my curve. Which creatures would you cut to put in those big angels, Twilight Shepherd and Emeria Shepherd. I might want to cut Basandra, Battle Seraph because she'd stop Avacyn from coming down during combat and saving my butt. The angel token generators aren't really necessary, those can get cut. I was just thinking of using Decree of Justice for big creatures if I needed it, or little ones to use as ways to get Avacyn to trigger. It seems I'm not using Urza's Incubator or Herald's Horn anymore, but I AM using Herald of War, so I could add more small humans to lower the curve. An Avacyn deck with a more equal ratio of humans to angels, even, is very on flavor, and still takes advantage of Herald of War's awesome ability. I'd be very cool with an angels and humans deck, because that has a really nice lore flavor to it, too. Mana curve is really my biggest issue. One reason I liked Kaalia of the Vast is I didn't have to worry as much about casting huge creatures. I'm not averse to using white humans for early game, (because of Oketra's Monument), and having angels be my mid and late game beaters. Really my idea for this deck initially was to do midrange with control to keep me alive and then big angel beaters. There are some cheaper angels that accomplish the goal of defense for me, so those should stay in. If this becomes a Church of Avacyn sort of deck, with angels and humans, I'm very cool with that, too. I'd even be cool with fewer creatures to give me more control-y effects. I need practice with midrange anyway, I'm almost always playing aggro strategies.
I guess what I need help with the most is the mana curve, making sure I have enough defense early so that my angels can smash face once I've built enough value to go on the attack, and how to do politics correctly. The game where I was in tears was not because I was killed first, but how. I had been full swinging at someone whose commander I really feared, and was trying to get others to as well. Convincing them was unsuccesful, so he had imprinted so many special abilities on his commander that all of the sudden it was nigh unstoppable. In the meantime, someone casted an HUGE Exsanguinate and almost killed us all. I shook on a truce with the first guy, and reminded him I had a huge Voltron threat on the table (Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith with lots of equipment), and that I could kill anyone I wanted to with a single attack. He took it as a threat and went back on shaking hands. He said "this is why women shouldn't play Magic" and did a full swing. Nazahn was all I had because of a recent Blasphemous Act, and unfortunately he was tapped.
Anyway, enough of my sob-story. Playing with Archangel Avacyn as my commander leaves the option open to do midrange or even control in Boros. Also nice would be tips on how to play midrange and/or control properly. I'm just so used to the "cast creatures and turn them sideways until your opponent(s) is/are dead" strategy that tips for playing the control side would be nice. I know that discipline and restraint are my paths to victory with this sort of deck, you more or less said so yourself, toctheyounger77. I want to at the very least lose knowing I gave it everything I got, and win or lose, became a better player. Thanks so much for all your help thus far, and to everyone else, too, in both my threads. I've decided what I really want is a deck that delivers on that Innistrad flavor that I like so much (and cards from any set can deliver on that, really, if they are angels or humans), be it angels or humans and angels, and that can hold its own in my local meta, which is constantly changing because Kenny (a guy who plays dinosaur tribal and The Scarab God) and I are the only people who come every week, and a guy who only has a mono-red control with a few theft cards with Starke of Rath shows up pretty often. Other than that, other people rotate in and out. So I want to be able to deal with whatever. I'll try to think about and take in everything, and any further wisdom you can give is more than welcome. Angels or a more even split of humans and angels are both fine with me. Thanks for being awesome.
These are all awesome suggestions, but I'm worried about my curve. Which creatures would you cut to put in those big angels, Twilight Shepherd and Emeria Shepherd. I might want to cut Basandra, Battle Seraph because she'd stop Avacyn from coming down during combat and saving my butt.
I'd cut Angelic Skirmisher, Baneslayer Angel, maybe Emeria Angel. Baneslayer is awesomely equipped but otherwise just a big beater, Angelic you have better in Odric and Emeria, well I guess you could keep it for chump blockers but there's probably not a huge need. Basandra, Battle Seraph I'd keep at least for now as it'll favour you in a lot of cases. You can always look at blinking strategies for your commander - Cloudshift, Eerie Interlude, Eldrazi Displacer are all really good, and they favour a lot of your other creatures too.
It seems I'm not using Urza's Incubator or Herald's Horn anymore, but I AM using Herald of War, so I could add more small humans to lower the curve. An Avacyn deck with a more equal ratio of humans to angels, even, is very on flavor, and still takes advantage of Herald of War's awesome ability. I'd be very cool with an angels and humans deck, because that has a really nice lore flavor to it, too. Mana curve is really my biggest issue. One reason I liked Kaalia of the Vast is I didn't have to worry as much about casting huge creatures. I'm not averse to using white humans for early game, (because of Oketra's Monument), and having angels be my mid and late game beaters. Really my idea for this deck initially was to do midrange with control to keep me alive and then big angel beaters. There are some cheaper angels that accomplish the goal of defense for me, so those should stay in. If this becomes a Church of Avacyn sort of deck, with angels and humans, I'm very cool with that, too. I'd even be cool with fewer creatures to give me more control-y effects. I need practice with midrange anyway, I'm almost always playing aggro strategies.
This seems wise to me - lowering your cost isn't the same as proactive plays that put a creature and a land on the battlefield. And to be fair, there's a lot of decent humans that can help you control combat and the board - Magus of the Moat, Magus of the Tabernacle, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Selfless Squire, Grand Abolisher, are all nice effects to slow your opponents down. The beauty of this in Boros is that a lot of your options either amplify these effects or protect them, so it could be a really viable option. There's ramp too, as you know with Knight of the White Orchid. I'm not sure if it's in your budget, but Weathered Wayfarer is a very strong card for ramp as it picks up any land. You could always look at Sword of the Animist too - cheap to buy, cheap to cast, cheap to equip, solid ramp.
The game where I was in tears was not because I was killed first, but how. I had been full swinging at someone whose commander I really feared, and was trying to get others to as well. Convincing them was unsuccesful, so he had imprinted so many special abilities on his commander that all of the sudden it was nigh unstoppable. In the meantime, someone casted an HUGE Exsanguinate and almost killed us all. I shook on a truce with the first guy, and reminded him I had a huge Voltron threat on the table (Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith with lots of equipment), and that I could kill anyone I wanted to with a single attack. He took it as a threat and went back on shaking hands. He said "this is why women shouldn't play Magic" and did a full swing. Nazahn was all I had because of a recent Blasphemous Act, and unfortunately he was tapped.
This is a *****ty situation. It tells you that absolutely cannot trust this guy, and also that he's a chauvinist pig. I'd punch him in the face post game. That sort of comment is atrociously sexist and offensive, and shouldn't have a part in social gaming. I think there's something to be said for making your online threats look a little more subtle, but that doesn't change the fact that the guys a dick for saying what he said.
Playing with Archangel Avacyn as my commander leaves the option open to do midrange or even control in Boros. Also nice would be tips on how to play midrange and/or control properly. I'm just so used to the "cast creatures and turn them sideways until your opponent(s) is/are dead" strategy that tips for playing the control side would be nice.
There's a lot that goes into this and different people will tell you different things. I guess my best tips for midrange/control are to leave your opponents guessing (don't play out your hand unless you can close a game out), and give yourself multiple avenues to victory. This is for flexibility, unpredictability, and to make your deck resilient. It can be a really different way to play, and it can be hard to get used to in that it's more like Texas Hold 'em poker than Five Hundred, and timing can be really important. What I've found most important is giving yourself options, that's been a really big part of making my Nissa and Bruna decks better.
I want to at the very least lose knowing I gave it everything I got, and win or lose, became a better player
To me this is what control does. Which is why it can be so fun to pilot, it's as much a game of timing mind games as playing out threats.
I think you're onto a good thing here. I think you can get the flavour you want and not compromise on a strong build. I just think the main thing is knowing what blend of threats you want here - big creatures are fun, but often they're not what wins you the game. In this deck, you've got some strong synergies, and being effective will be making those count for as much as you can. I think blinking will be strong, with your commander, but also with some of the other creatures you're running already. Blinking will help you protect your boardstate and meet favourably in combat.
There's also a reason Sunforger is in lots of Boros builds. It's strong. Even stronger with Mistveil Plains if you can find it, and Weathered Wayfarer if you can find it. You can blink on request with Eerie Interlude or Cloudshift, make your stuff indestructible or double striking with Boros Charm, recur your creatures post sweep with Faith's Reward, remove permanents with swords or path, wear or tear, and then tuck the chosen spell with Mistveil Plains to search for it again. It's a strong package, worth looking into. It can help you in combat, help lock players out of your turn, rinse and repeat.
toctheyounger77, and everyone, after some thought and taking your suggestions into consideration, I've decided that this deck is really fundamentally different now than it was when I started, and angel tribal really doesn't describe the deck anymore, and I can't change the title of the thread, I should likely just make a new thread with whatever deck I come up with when I finish brewing and call it something like "Archangel Avacyn-Church of Avacyn themed Control" What do you folks think? I think the title is misleading and someone who comes looking for angel tribal is going to be disappointed. So, in the next couple days I'll likely be posting a new thread, and putting a link to it in this thread. Thanks everyone for the help, and please read the new thread when it's up and if you comment, offer suggestions, tell me it's good, tell me I suck, whatever, I'd appreciate it.
-Gabrielle
Edit: I was able to change the thread title, so I won't be making a new one. I'll edit the original post too, to reflect the new deck.
Okay, changed the name of the thread, so it's all good now. Thanks to FunkyDragon for pointing out to me that I can and telling me how. Hurray for not having to start an new thread. :-D
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"Cut it down, bury it in the snow, put it to the torch. The rose will still bloom again."
I feel like it's still angel tribal to some extent - most angels printed thus far definitely have the 'protector' vibe going. And there's a reasonable amount of human/angel tribal synergy anyway, especially in the Innistrad block. But the 'Church of Avacyn' theme, I really like. That's a cool way to think of the deck.
I'll definitely be interested to hear how this deck plays out, you'll have to feedback to us how it goes once you get a game in.
That won't be for a while, it will take some time before I can buy the cards necessary to have a playable version of the deck. I'll still be posting changes here as I make them, but I won't be able to test the deck for a while.
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"Cut it down, bury it in the snow, put it to the torch. The rose will still bloom again."
Assuming there are cards you aren't sure about and that you play in sleeves, you could always proxy them in with a basic land or something and then try them out that way before buying the card.
That said, your manabase worries me a bit. In a two color deck, do you really need that many fetchlands or do you just have them laying around? A few I understand, but basics seem better to me here, especially if you consider something like emeria, the sky ruin (I run it in my own archangel avacyn deck. My own deck is built incredibly differently, though).
I wasn't sure, this is only my second full EDH deck that I've made completely from scratch, so for the mana base I used Tolarian Community College on YouTube's video on two color mana bases as a guide. So, is this a bit more reasonable for a manabase?
My apologies, I wasn't saying to change any of the mana rocks (artifacts), but the thing that concerned me more was the fetchlands...3 or 4 make sense to color fix, but if you run too many enters tapped lands, it will slow you down still further and you're already quite slow. For budgetary reasons, I would usually run heavier basics. Your lands look better this time, but I would keep that arid mesa over the city of brass (if you already have it, that is. Your previous posts in this thread and others would suggest that you are on a budget) and myriad landscape as listed in the original post. Myriad landscape is actual ramp by which I mean using it gives you +1 land, whereas something like evolving wilds/terramorphic expanse just replace themselves with the needed color, which doesn't make them bad.
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First of all, a little bit about me. I've named myself Gabrielle Angelfire because Gabriel Angelfire was the rare I got from my first booster pack, Chronicles. From there I played mostly casually, and in 2002 stopped playing when I moved into the dorms at University of Hawaii. In December of last year I started playing again, tried Modern and disliked competitive play. I have switched to being an EDH player. I bought the Kaalia preconstructed deck online, and have tweaked and added to it, spending quite a bit of money in the process, only to dismantle the deck. I don't want this to happen again.
Note: This section was edited when I changed the focus of the deck from strictly tribal to control.
The main idea of this deck is to have a flavorful build surrounding the story of Innistrad. I've included key players like Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna, Odric, Thalia, and even the villain of the story, Nahiri. My vision is angels, humans and the occasional other working together in a control deck that is flavorful but also effective enough to win in a competitive group on a budget. No expensive fetches or dual lands here. (Note: Ancient Tomb can be replaced with Temple of the False God if you don't own Ancient Tomb and want to make the deck more budget friendly) I've chosen Archangel Avacyn for lore reasons, and also because she's less of a lightning rod than other good Boros generals (I'm looking at you, Gisela, Blade of Goldnight and Aurelia, the Warleader). I will be building the deck a few cards a time until I can afford the whole thing. Some targets are: 10 card draw, at least 12 ramp, and enough targeted removal and board wipes to deal with what my opponents happen to throw at me. I'm looking for a balanced deck that can hold off my opponents with "comes into play tapped" abilities, and a lock to keep creatures from untapping until my board state is right for me to go on the attack with vigilant creatures, most of whom fly. Without further ado, this is what I've come up with after consulting some very smart people on this forum:
1 Archangel Avacyn
Creatures (29)
1 Herald of the Host
1 Angel of Condemnation
1 Angelic Skirmisher
1 Archangel of Tithes
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Bruna, the Fading Light
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Gisela, the Broken Blade
1 Herald of War
1 Kor Cartographer
1 Karmic Guide
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
1 Angel of Finality
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Thalia's Lancers
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Magus of the Wheel
1 Angelic Field Marshal
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Emeria Shepherd
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
1 Adarkar Valkyrie
1 Angel of the Dire Hour
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Sun Titan
1 Aurelia's Fury
1 Boros Charm
1 Path to Exile
1 Return to Dust
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Orim's Thunder
1 Day of Judgment
1 Defy Death
1 Fumigate
1 Hour of Revelation
1 Wrath of God
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Vandalblast
Artifacts (11)
1 Boros Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Hedron Archive
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Sol Ring
1 Dowsing Dagger
1 Mask of Memory
1 The Immortal Sun
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Worn Powerstone
Enchantments (8)
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Stranglehold
1 Outpost Siege
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Martyr's Cause
1 Blind Obedience
1 Aura of Silence
1 Smoke
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Lands:
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Boros Garrison
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Command Tower
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Homeward Path
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Temple of Triumph
1 Wind-Scarred Crag
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Arch of Orazca
1 City of Brass
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Inspiring Vantage
15 Plains
4 Mountain
I'm gradually changing out my cheap replacements for the cards that belong in the deck. Any other changes to the deck to improve it or ways to cut costs are much appreciated. I already own the other expensive cards on the list, so I don't need to replace them. I still want to hit my threshold of 10 card draw cards, at least 6 targeted removal, At least 3 board wipes, 2 tutors, 2 recursion, 12-14 ramp, and have token generators to help me trigger Avacyn. Thanks in advance for reading and your help.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Day of Judgment is a decent replacement for Wrath too. The cheaper your wraths are (in cmc), the better. One choice to consider as well is Slaughter the Strong if you don't mind that most of your creatures don't survive it; smaller angels will. Windborn Muse can fit in for Archangel of Tithes if you just want defense.
Your curve is extremely high: I count 13 angels at 6+ cmc, the replacements you suggest have 6 angels at 6+ cmc, and that's not counting the wraths and other big spells.
Some relatively cheaper cmc angels that aren't expensive:
Angel of Condemnation: reuse EtB effects, remove opponent's creatures until it dies, remove blockers or attackers against you (if you don't mind the opponent getting an EtB)
Angel of Finality: Graveyard Hate
Angelic Field Marshal: gives all your creatures vigilance if you control your general too.
Avacyn, Guardian Angel: She doesn't measure up to the other two, but, the abilities can be used defensively as well as politically. You might surprise yourself with her.
Firemane Avenger: Easy-to-trigger ability that removes utility creatures.
Guardian Seraph: protects your life total against smaller bits of damage.
Herald of the Host: Serra Angel that can swing at multiple opponents at once.
Reaper of Flight Moonsilver: Sac outlet.
Out of what you have and are not using to use for replacements: Mother of Runes and Iroas seem the best since one is cheap and repeatable and the other affects the whole team, making them hard to block and kill in combat.
For card draw in R/W, a way to gain it would be becoming The Monarch (token: https://www.cardkingdom.com/mtg/conspiracy-take-the-crown/the-monarch-token). It's like having Phyrexian Arena as an emblem you can lose or regain.
Decent Monarch Cards in your colors:
Card Draw on lands:
Clues can be a source of draw too:
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
within the [ deck ] [ /deck ] (remove spaces), put #x (Card Name) down a list (you can use the cmc of the card which is common for people or the number of cards for #), and for separating them, just type in a heading above a section. Example:
[ deck ]
General
5x Archangel Avacyn
1x Avacyn, the Purifier
Lands
10x Plains
10x Mountain
1x Rogue's Passage
[ /deck ]
which then looks like this:
5x Archangel Avacyn
1x Avacyn, the Purifier
10x Plains
10x Mountain
1x Rogue's Passage
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Non Angel suggestions to help trigger Avacyn's Transform (Angel of Jubilation prevents you from saccing as a cost, though):
Utility:
Tokens:
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
It's fine to keep Angel of Jubilation in the deck, you just have to play around it if you want creatures that self-sacrifice. The Unicorn is a nice choice since it targets both artifacts and enchantments rather than only one or the other. To choose only a couple of the ones I listed:
Burnished Hart, Wild-Field Scarecrow (early game blockers and manafixing), Capashen Unicorn (removal), Knight-Captain of Eos for the fogs. All of those are useful earlier on in the game as board states develop. Luminous Angel is extremely expensive for its body and token production, and Requiem Angel is best suited for token decks that make more than one type of token so you can turn Human and Soldier tokens into Spirits and other shenanigans. From there, try out the deck and see what seems weakest for other cuts for what you feel like you need in your meta, how fast or slow your deck feels, and other things you need.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
I cut the two really expensive angels and replaced them with Capashen Unicorn and Burnished Hart.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Zacama, Primal Calamity: big mana Naya, Dino Tribal, Aggro
Edgar Markov: Vamp Tribal, Aggro
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and The Mimeoplasm: Reanimator
Ezuri, Claw of Progress: Infect, Aggro
Starke of Rath: Mono-Red Control (I like this person's choice)
Note: rest of this is just based upon speculating upon their decks. What you know of what they play is best for changing things to fit the meta
More control overall could really help out surviving long enough for flying fatties to get through their defenses. That evasion is one of your benefits you seem to hold over the rest of the table.
Both your commander and Boros Charm give protection against wraths and similar, and Boros Charm is cheap enough to cast with your own wrath. Two of the decks mentioned are Tri-Color, two dual color, and one mono-color. You could take advantage of that by adding more basics to the deck replacing a lot of the tapped lands in order to set yourself up to use cards like Ruination and From the Ashes (which replaces your destroyed lands with untapped lands so you can tap your lands for mana first, floating what you need and get more out of it than the cost of From the Ashes). Boros Charm also protects your own lands from Ruination.
Some other cards:
Volcanic Offering removes two creatures of a reasonable size and two nonbasics at instant speed.
Incendiary Command can kill off token swarms, kill a nonbasic land, and everyone discards their hand and draws to their former hand size.
Condemn is no Swords to Plowshares nor is it Path to Exile, but with the amount of aggro in your meta, it should serve well enough.
Tectonic Edge is not expensive and fits a land slot.
Scavenger Grounds wipes out all graveyards, only takes a land slot, and can work with Desert of the Fervent and Desert of the True which if you don't need them you can cycle away. The two deserts aren't necessary for Scavenger Grounds to work but give you more uses out of it.
Tormod's Crypt can remove one gy for 0 mana, and (though more expensive to activate), Silent Gravestone meanwhile prevents cards in the gy from being targets of spells and abilities. Note that The Mimeoplasm's ability doesn't target.
For dealing with very specific ability problems, there's Pithing Needle, Sorcerous Spyglass, and Phyrexian Revoker. They turn off not only things like Jarad's abilities, but do a lot depending on how much opponents lean on abilities.
Gideon's Intervention, Nevermore, Null Chamber (more risky), and Voidstone Gargoyle each prevent an oppoonent from using a card that could stop your gameplan or kill you.
Earthquake, Magmaquake, and Fault Line can wipe out non-flyers leaving your angels untouched, and since they will kill your non-flyers as well, can incidentally flip your Avacyn.
Staff of Nin has a high cmc but increases your card draw.
Reverberate allows you to counter counters as well as pull off shenanigans by copying opponents' spells. Wild Ricochet is similar for double the cmc, but also redirects the copied spell.
Rout is Wrath of God that can be cast at instant speed.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I do have a couple of thoughts on some tweaks:
This is all valid. Immortal Sun is strong as card draw with control and spell cost reduction - you could almost look at this instead of the Incubator. I see no reason you shouldn't give yourself some redundancy and run either Staff of Nin or Mind's Eye. The other good thing about the Staff, too, is that it can ping a token of yours down to flip Avacyn, so to my mind its worth including.
Have you thought about some trigger doublers? You have some great ETBs, and Avacyn's flip ability is great control. Strionic Resonator could be awesome here - ordinarily I'd suggest Panharmonicon too, but I don't really see it pulling its weight.
As far as your angels go, I can make a couple recommendations -
- There's no reason not to run Twilight Shepherd here - it's good redundancy for Avacyn's flip ability (In the same vein, Faith's Reward is both awesome and loads of fun).
- Angelic Skirmisher sort of does the same thing but worse as Odric, Lunarch Marshal. Can I suggest instead Silverblade Paladin? Resettable, transferrable double strike, for commander damage or combat advantage, I'd think it would be a strong addition.
- You could probably look at finding room for Emeria Shepherd - rewarding you for playing lands is money for jam, and it's worth the CMC.
Chandra, Pyromaster seems like a weak draw option and not much else. I definitely can get behind the earlier monarch suggestion, it really is a great mechanic, and I think you should switch one for the other. Protector of the Crown would be awesome in here, and there's no reason not to run Throne of the High City. Worst case scenario it encourages people to attack into a combat situation you can manipulate to claim your crown, best case its end step draw. Plus, you can recur with Karmic or Bruna to Protector to reset the ability.
You've got some good instants and sorceries you're running here, have you thought about including Sunforger? It's such a strong effect for Boros, and it's dirt cheap. You could look at Isochron Scepter too, but it's probably more of a corner case. I'd maybe cut Pearl Medallion for it.
You do seem still a little concerned about Angel of Jubilation, too. I sort of wanted to reassure you that it's a strong effect that you can definitely play around. Angel of Condemnation can take it off the battlefield whenever you please, Firemane Avenger can take it out altogether and gains you life. And you can get it back when you want it with Karmic or Bruna.
Orim's Thunder actually is pretty good, so you could look at playing. Pretty versatile.
Are you dead set on Decree of Justice/Entreat the Angels as set places in your deck? My concern is that in Boros your manabase is not going to ever be super flush enough to make use of these and STILL hold up mana for optimal plays during combat or other turns. On paper they look fun, but I feel like they're the kind of card you hold onto as they're never optimal enough to play - if you REALLY want angel tokens, you could go for Luminarch Ascnesion. Or you could look at other powerful instants/sorceries instead - I'd like Sphinx's Decree or Silence in here, maybe Deflecting Palm or even Arcbond. Or Insult // Injury.
Lots to think about, sorry to inundate you. Hope the feedback is helpful!
I guess what I need help with the most is the mana curve, making sure I have enough defense early so that my angels can smash face once I've built enough value to go on the attack, and how to do politics correctly. The game where I was in tears was not because I was killed first, but how. I had been full swinging at someone whose commander I really feared, and was trying to get others to as well. Convincing them was unsuccesful, so he had imprinted so many special abilities on his commander that all of the sudden it was nigh unstoppable. In the meantime, someone casted an HUGE Exsanguinate and almost killed us all. I shook on a truce with the first guy, and reminded him I had a huge Voltron threat on the table (Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith with lots of equipment), and that I could kill anyone I wanted to with a single attack. He took it as a threat and went back on shaking hands. He said "this is why women shouldn't play Magic" and did a full swing. Nazahn was all I had because of a recent Blasphemous Act, and unfortunately he was tapped.
Anyway, enough of my sob-story. Playing with Archangel Avacyn as my commander leaves the option open to do midrange or even control in Boros. Also nice would be tips on how to play midrange and/or control properly. I'm just so used to the "cast creatures and turn them sideways until your opponent(s) is/are dead" strategy that tips for playing the control side would be nice. I know that discipline and restraint are my paths to victory with this sort of deck, you more or less said so yourself, toctheyounger77. I want to at the very least lose knowing I gave it everything I got, and win or lose, became a better player. Thanks so much for all your help thus far, and to everyone else, too, in both my threads. I've decided what I really want is a deck that delivers on that Innistrad flavor that I like so much (and cards from any set can deliver on that, really, if they are angels or humans), be it angels or humans and angels, and that can hold its own in my local meta, which is constantly changing because Kenny (a guy who plays dinosaur tribal and The Scarab God) and I are the only people who come every week, and a guy who only has a mono-red control with a few theft cards with Starke of Rath shows up pretty often. Other than that, other people rotate in and out. So I want to be able to deal with whatever. I'll try to think about and take in everything, and any further wisdom you can give is more than welcome. Angels or a more even split of humans and angels are both fine with me. Thanks for being awesome.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
I'd cut Angelic Skirmisher, Baneslayer Angel, maybe Emeria Angel. Baneslayer is awesomely equipped but otherwise just a big beater, Angelic you have better in Odric and Emeria, well I guess you could keep it for chump blockers but there's probably not a huge need. Basandra, Battle Seraph I'd keep at least for now as it'll favour you in a lot of cases. You can always look at blinking strategies for your commander - Cloudshift, Eerie Interlude, Eldrazi Displacer are all really good, and they favour a lot of your other creatures too.
This seems wise to me - lowering your cost isn't the same as proactive plays that put a creature and a land on the battlefield. And to be fair, there's a lot of decent humans that can help you control combat and the board - Magus of the Moat, Magus of the Tabernacle, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Selfless Squire, Grand Abolisher, are all nice effects to slow your opponents down. The beauty of this in Boros is that a lot of your options either amplify these effects or protect them, so it could be a really viable option. There's ramp too, as you know with Knight of the White Orchid. I'm not sure if it's in your budget, but Weathered Wayfarer is a very strong card for ramp as it picks up any land. You could always look at Sword of the Animist too - cheap to buy, cheap to cast, cheap to equip, solid ramp.
This is a *****ty situation. It tells you that absolutely cannot trust this guy, and also that he's a chauvinist pig. I'd punch him in the face post game. That sort of comment is atrociously sexist and offensive, and shouldn't have a part in social gaming. I think there's something to be said for making your online threats look a little more subtle, but that doesn't change the fact that the guys a dick for saying what he said.
There's a lot that goes into this and different people will tell you different things. I guess my best tips for midrange/control are to leave your opponents guessing (don't play out your hand unless you can close a game out), and give yourself multiple avenues to victory. This is for flexibility, unpredictability, and to make your deck resilient. It can be a really different way to play, and it can be hard to get used to in that it's more like Texas Hold 'em poker than Five Hundred, and timing can be really important. What I've found most important is giving yourself options, that's been a really big part of making my Nissa and Bruna decks better.
To me this is what control does. Which is why it can be so fun to pilot, it's as much a game of timing mind games as playing out threats.
I think you're onto a good thing here. I think you can get the flavour you want and not compromise on a strong build. I just think the main thing is knowing what blend of threats you want here - big creatures are fun, but often they're not what wins you the game. In this deck, you've got some strong synergies, and being effective will be making those count for as much as you can. I think blinking will be strong, with your commander, but also with some of the other creatures you're running already. Blinking will help you protect your boardstate and meet favourably in combat.
There's also a reason Sunforger is in lots of Boros builds. It's strong. Even stronger with Mistveil Plains if you can find it, and Weathered Wayfarer if you can find it. You can blink on request with Eerie Interlude or Cloudshift, make your stuff indestructible or double striking with Boros Charm, recur your creatures post sweep with Faith's Reward, remove permanents with swords or path, wear or tear, and then tuck the chosen spell with Mistveil Plains to search for it again. It's a strong package, worth looking into. It can help you in combat, help lock players out of your turn, rinse and repeat.
I wouldn't worry a huge amount about your curve either, there's way to cheat your fatties into play. Nahiri, the Harbinger can help you toss a fatty to your yard, Karmic Guide can recur it. So can Bruna, the Fading Light or Emeria Shepherd. Not only that, Mask of Memory can turf fatties for recursion too.
-Gabrielle
Edit: I was able to change the thread title, so I won't be making a new one. I'll edit the original post too, to reflect the new deck.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
I'll definitely be interested to hear how this deck plays out, you'll have to feedback to us how it goes once you get a game in.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
That said, your manabase worries me a bit. In a two color deck, do you really need that many fetchlands or do you just have them laying around? A few I understand, but basics seem better to me here, especially if you consider something like emeria, the sky ruin (I run it in my own archangel avacyn deck. My own deck is built incredibly differently, though).
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Boros Garrison
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Temple of Triumph
1 Wind-Scarred Crag
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Arch of Orazca
1 City of Brass -(maybe?)
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
15 Plains
4 Mountain
1 Boros Signet
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Hedron Archive
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Oketra's Monument
1 Sol Ring
1 Dowsing Dagger
1 The Immortal Sun
I might want to have even more plains. Please tell me what you think.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!