Thanks for the feedback, but yeah, after posting I realized that many of the cards I listed were slower than what you're looking to include in this deck.
Now I did come up with a couple others though. First, I'm gonna go way back and give you Marton Stromgald for his pop defense and attacking creature buffs. He's definitely included in my goblin themed version of Grenzo.
The second card we have is Lim-Dul's Paladin. He may also be a little slow and clunky, but is another way to get cards from your hand to the graveyard. I'm just mentioning him since there aren't to many options to do this...
Finally, I gotta say Herald of Leshrac is just downright filthy & evil, in this deck. I gotta get me one!
Great list and congrats on the primer! Any thoughts on Drana, Liberator of Malakir?
Thanks stu! Drana, Liberator of Malakir probably wouldn't fit in this list as she doesn't directly feed into any combos or further our influx of flips. However, if you're running a more aggro list for Grenzo, this could definitely work.
Now I did come up with a couple others though. First, I'm gonna go way back and give you Marton Stromgald for his pop defense and attacking creature buffs. He's definitely included in my goblin themed version of Grenzo.
The second card we have is Lim-Dul's Paladin. He may also be a little slow and clunky, but is another way to get cards from your hand to the graveyard. I'm just mentioning him since there aren't to many options to do this...
Finally, I gotta say Herald of Leshrac is just downright filthy & evil, in this deck. I gotta get me one!
Marton Stromgald - This would definitely be another great piece in a more aggro version, but I could see the argument in buffing your defenses through the blocking trigger.
Lim-Dul's Paladin - The delayed and uncontrollable discard trigger seems a little slow. I'd recommend Skirge Familiar if you're looking for a powerful discard activation.
Herald of Leshrac - He is a lot of fun! He was included in my list a while back, but I dropped him for two reasons:
He's a huge target and directs all attention towards you. I like how the current list doesn't attract a lot of attention to itself until it's too late, so the sudden shift in aggro from other players was a problem.
He ends up being really slow. You have to wait until your turn to steal your first land and it doesn't untap, so an opponent can just tap their land in response to prevent you from using it. Granted, if you get him out as your first flip, it can be brutal. But typically your opponents still have their prime removal that early in the game anyways, so you can guess where it's being directed.
All that to say, Herald is a really fun card and I encourage trying him out! He just turned out to be a little less useful the more I played with him.
They might be too slow for your main deck, but some of the flip wolves would slot in well to the budget version, especially since you don't want to be casting spells on your turn. Afflicted Deserter is some nice artifact hate; instant speed removal can nullify it, but it's more likely to trigger twice than Tuktuk Scrapper). Also, Mondronen Shaman would be good for a chuckle or two.
I really like Afflicted Deserter as repeatable artifact destruction. It's probably not fast enough for the current list, but I'm definitely going to add it into my more casual version (non-infinite, little slower).
I really like Afflicted Deserter as repeatable artifact destruction. It's probably not fast enough for the current list, but I'm definitely going to add it into my more casual version (non-infinite, little slower).
Interested in your non-infinite version, what you cut, how you still win...
Interested in your non-infinite version, what you cut, how you still win...
Of course! For my casual version I took out all of the major combo enabling pieces and either replaced them with other cool cards or weaker versions of themselves. So essentially, the cards I took out were:
Phyrexian Altar - still strong, but much harder to abuse as quickly
Balthor the Defiled - had to bring this guy back in for the consistency since the deck is slower
Mindclaw Shaman - Since it's a more casual meta, I have a lot more fun with this card. Also, it feels really good to catch someone else's Merciless Eviction and hit all of the enchantments with their own card.
Silent Arbiter - My casual meta has a lot of token decks
Other than these changes, the list is all the same. It does slow down the deck a bit in the sense that you don't run into the "oops, I win" scenario as often; but the pace of excitement is still the same. The win-cons now become one of the three:
An infinite combo that requires Phyrexian Altar, Heartstone and a creature that creates 3+ tokens (if you let me get 4 pieces out and keep them, I don't feel bad for infiniting)
Last game I played, I still managed to flip through most of my deck and actually found that I got to see a lot more of it since I have to dig a lot deeper for the win sometimes. So I really enjoyed these changes and my meta appreciated the ability to to play longer games as well.
Interested in your non-infinite version, what you cut, how you still win...
Of course! For my casual version I took out all of the major combo enabling pieces and either replaced them with other cool cards or weaker versions of themselves. So essentially, the cards I took out were:
Phyrexian Altar - still strong, but much harder to abuse as quickly
Balthor the Defiled - had to bring this guy back in for the consistency since the deck is slower
Mindclaw Shaman - Since it's a more casual meta, I have a lot more fun with this card. Also, it feels really good to catch someone else's Merciless Eviction and hit all of the enchantments with their own card.
Silent Arbiter - My casual meta has a lot of token decks
Other than these changes, the list is all the same. It does slow down the deck a bit in the sense that you don't run into the "oops, I win" scenario as often; but the pace of excitement is still the same. The win-cons now become one of the three:
An infinite combo that requires Phyrexian Altar, Heartstone and a creature that creates 3+ tokens (if you let me get 4 pieces out and keep them, I don't feel bad for infiniting)
Last game I played, I still managed to flip through most of my deck and actually found that I got to see a lot more of it since I have to dig a lot deeper for the win sometimes. So I really enjoyed these changes and my meta appreciated the ability to to play longer games as well.
Awesome. I do love the explosiveness and randomness of this deck, but sometimes don't want to risk accidentally going Kiki/Zealous and making the table groan. I might find a way to keep Kiki in there because he's so awesome with most of the cards in the deck. Take out Lightning Crafter and Zealous and play with that. Maybe add Krenko and go wider. Thanks!
I'm still trying to find a good, viable way to get cards out of your hand, and either into the graveyard, or on the bottom of the deck.
So, I didn't see any comments in the thread regarding Olivia, Mobilized for War!
1) When you flip a creature, you may discard.
2) It gives a +1/+1 buff, and haste.
3) It's fairly cheap to cast from hand.
I'm still trying to find a good, viable way to get cards out of your hand, and either into the graveyard, or on the bottom of the deck.
So, I didn't see any comments in the thread regarding Olivia, Mobilized for War!
1) When you flip a creature, you may discard.
2) It gives a +1/+1 buff, and haste.
3) It's fairly cheap to cast from hand.
Not sure if I agree with your logic Kraus. The fact that Olivia's ability is static, not needing to be tapped or have mana spent, allows it to be flipped into play, then (immediately) abuse any infinite shenanegans, and possibly (again immediately) get one (or more) important cards from hand to the graveyard, and subsequently play, all at the same time. Of the 3 cards you suggested, only the Automation maybe works for me. Discarding, "for value" is nice, but I like abusing cards in play, and not having to pay for that abuse is even better. I could be wrong though, and YMMV.
Depends on what your gameplan is. Olivia would work for a more aggro version of the deck where you want to pump creatures and swing right away. You also have to play a creature in order to get the discard ability. If you have a card in hand that you want in the graveyard because you'd rather pay 2 to flip it than its full mana cost, then the cards I suggested are more flexible. Sliversmith will even give you a creature to sac to Ashnod's Altar to help pay for a flip. *shrug* Again, depends on how you're running the show.
I'm still trying to find a good, viable way to get cards out of your hand, and either into the graveyard, or on the bottom of the deck.
I have run into similar issues and have switched between a few cards to be able to dump my hand. Currently I have had luck with Liliana, Heretical Healer and Sadistic Hypnotist as they both cover multiple applications, although I am running Teferi's Puzzle Box in my list which seems to smooth things out for me if I can land it.
I picked up a foil Grenzo a few months ago but built goblins around him as a way to build a "weaker" deck, but quickly took the deck apart as he really relied on Krenko too much and didn't do anything without him. I might try this list though
I actually am pretty intrigued by Olivia, Mobilized for War. The biggest issue I've had with finding good discard outlets is that they miss one of the two criteria I need for them:
Free Activation
Useful Effect from the Discard
So far, Skirge Familiar has been the only one to come even remotely close to what I'm looking for, but I may play around with Olivia for a couple of reasons:
Haste is a useful secondary effect. I can't guarantee I'll always have Anger in the graveyard, so having another source of haste for our tap creatures is definitely useful.
The ability is free and the trigger is easy. Being able to freely and immediately discard a Deathbringer Thoctar in response to flipping a Phyrexian Delver can be a huge swing.
The +1/+1 counter is relevant. Whether it's getting your Deathbringer Thoctar started on pinging tokens or providing the additional power to Grenzo after a Tel-Jilad Stylus protection loop, I could see that +1/+1 counter becoming clutch in certain situations.
All that to say, I think the card is definitely worth testing. Thanks for the recommendation!
I have run into similar issues and have switched between a few cards to be able to dump my hand. Currently I have had luck with Liliana, Heretical Healer and Sadistic Hypnotist as they both cover multiple applications, although I am running Teferi's Puzzle Box in my list which seems to smooth things out for me if I can land it.
I do still need to grab a foil Liliana, Heretical Healer as I feel she needs another round of testing in my own list. Discard, recursion, and she exists as one of the only planeswalkers that Grenzo can actually flip.
Yessir! Ashnod's Altar and Nim Deathmantle are already busted by themselves; but together, they enable so many combos. I probably should include this in the combo section of the primer since it's relatively easy to assemble.
Thanks again for this awesome list man. Not sure if this works with Grenzo's activation but would Desecrated Tomb work as a value engine? Thanks again, I have built this deck recently and I'm super excited to play him
Thanks again for this awesome list man. Not sure if this works with Grenzo's activation but would Desecrated Tomb work as a value engine? Thanks again, I have built this deck recently and I'm super excited to play him
Hey stu.! It definitely works off of Grenzo's activation, but I left it out for two reasons:
It's effect isn't terribly powerful. We already have token generators off of Pitiless Plunderer and Pawn of Ulamog and their tokens translate directly into mana for more flips. So you need Ashnod's Altar to make the tomb good, and even then, I'd rather just get one of the previous two creatures I mentioned instead.
It's a noncreature artifact. So including it has the chance of messing up flips more and since the effect isn't all that powerful in and of itself (as described above) it's not worth muddying the waters for.
I hope this explains my reasoning for its exclusion. You'll have to let me know how your first couple of games with the deck goes!
I do still need to grab a foil Liliana, Heretical Healer as I feel she needs another round of testing in my own list. Discard, recursion, and she exists as one of the only planeswalkers that Grenzo can actually flip.
One game recently I got her to Ult with the blockers and removal i had available, and it was pretty much over on the spot as she gets all players creatures with her emblem <3
One game recently I got her to Ult with the blockers and removal i had available, and it was pretty much over on the spot as she gets all players creatures with her emblem <3
You've convinced me to test it out again! Even if it turns out to be too slow in the main list, I'm confident it will find a spot in my non-infinite version.
Sorry for the bombardment of questions - any thoughts on Jeweled Amulet? My reasoning is that it's free to play, if we only have 1 mana up we can charge it end of turn then use the mana next turn. I would replace a land for it (I'll test it next time my group gets together. Thanks again
Finally got some games in with my build. What a fun deck. Deathbringer Thoctar is the real deal. Much better than Blood Artist in its versatility. Had an awesome Balthor the Defiled turn where I unearthed Corpse Connoisseur to put Thoctar in the grave first, got all of my creatures back and then went off. A card I put in that's not on your list but did serious work was Rummaging Goblin. It got Anger in the graveyard early game and helped me filter through my deck to find the pieces I needed.
Thanks for the inspiration!
I imagine you'll wait until the full set is out to look at what might make it into the deck, but Mayhem Devil looks promising.
Sorry for the bombardment of questions - any thoughts on Jeweled Amulet? My reasoning is that it's free to play, if we only have 1 mana up we can charge it end of turn then use the mana next turn. I would replace a land for it (I'll test it next time my group gets together. Thanks again
Let me know how it goes for you. It seems a little slow to me, but I'd be open to hear about your testing.
Finally got some games in with my build. What a fun deck. Deathbringer Thoctar is the real deal. Much better than Blood Artist in its versatility. Had an awesome Balthor the Defiled turn where I unearthed Corpse Connoisseur to put Thoctar in the grave first, got all of my creatures back and then went off. A card I put in that's not on your list but did serious work was Rummaging Goblin. It got Anger in the graveyard early game and helped me filter through my deck to find the pieces I needed.
Thanks for the inspiration!
I imagine you'll wait until the full set is out to look at what might make it into the deck, but Mayhem Devil looks promising.
Glad to hear you've been having fun! And I completely agree with you. Deathbringer Thoctar is an absolute bro, and I love flipping him just as much as my opponent's hate seeing him. He's often their primary target for a Path to Exile since they know how problematic he can be.
As for the review, I am indeed waiting on the full spoiler. But I can say currently, I have only see two potential includes (Mayhem Devil being one of them). Overall, I've been a little disappointed, but I can't expect the list to receive a bomb every set
Looks like War of the spark brings a new toy for Grenzo. Mayhem devil.
What do you think? For me it's an auto-include, even over judith, but I will have to think about what to take out.
Sorry for the delay friends! It's been a crazy couple of weeks with classes and studying for the DAT. And most of my Magic time has been brewing and playing with Feather, the Redeemed which is definitely my 2nd favorite deck to Grenzo. Anyways, here's my quick review of the War of the Spark set:
Honestly, there's not a lot for Grenzo here. There were really only two cards I found that even interest me:
- Mayhem Devil - Another great source of ping damage. It triggers off of any sac which makes it interesting versus other sac heavy match-ups. I'm not sure what I'd replace for this though. It's definitely not overtaking Deathbringer Thoctar or Goblin Sharpshooter as death triggers are so much more reliable (and are what allow us to ping down boards). I could see the argument for Judith, the Scourge Diva, but even then, I like her +1 power enabler as well as her Diva-ness.
- Bolas's Citadel - What?!!?!? We're talking about a noncreature card in this primer? Well, yes, but not vehemently. I really like this card as a method of utilizing our top deck and not delving into our available mana for Grenzo activations. Would I ever cast this from hand? No. Would I like to have this enter the battlefield via a Goblin Welder or Kuldotha Forgemaster activation? Sure, but I'd rather have Ashnod's Altar first. So I don't know if it's worth it, but it should be fun testing out to see if I can get it online.
Those are my thoughts at least. Hopefully Modern Horizons will give us some exciting toys to play with.
Now I did come up with a couple others though. First, I'm gonna go way back and give you Marton Stromgald for his pop defense and attacking creature buffs. He's definitely included in my goblin themed version of Grenzo.
The second card we have is Lim-Dul's Paladin. He may also be a little slow and clunky, but is another way to get cards from your hand to the graveyard. I'm just mentioning him since there aren't to many options to do this...
Finally, I gotta say Herald of Leshrac is just downright filthy & evil, in this deck. I gotta get me one!
Thanks stu! Drana, Liberator of Malakir probably wouldn't fit in this list as she doesn't directly feed into any combos or further our influx of flips. However, if you're running a more aggro list for Grenzo, this could definitely work.
Marton Stromgald - This would definitely be another great piece in a more aggro version, but I could see the argument in buffing your defenses through the blocking trigger.
Lim-Dul's Paladin - The delayed and uncontrollable discard trigger seems a little slow. I'd recommend Skirge Familiar if you're looking for a powerful discard activation.
Herald of Leshrac - He is a lot of fun! He was included in my list a while back, but I dropped him for two reasons:
All that to say, Herald is a really fun card and I encourage trying him out! He just turned out to be a little less useful the more I played with him.
Reddit
Interested in your non-infinite version, what you cut, how you still win...
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
I saw that! I'm always happy to see others find the joy of Grenzo.
Of course! For my casual version I took out all of the major combo enabling pieces and either replaced them with other cool cards or weaker versions of themselves. So essentially, the cards I took out were:
I then added:
Other than these changes, the list is all the same. It does slow down the deck a bit in the sense that you don't run into the "oops, I win" scenario as often; but the pace of excitement is still the same. The win-cons now become one of the three:
Last game I played, I still managed to flip through most of my deck and actually found that I got to see a lot more of it since I have to dig a lot deeper for the win sometimes. So I really enjoyed these changes and my meta appreciated the ability to to play longer games as well.
Awesome. I do love the explosiveness and randomness of this deck, but sometimes don't want to risk accidentally going Kiki/Zealous and making the table groan. I might find a way to keep Kiki in there because he's so awesome with most of the cards in the deck. Take out Lightning Crafter and Zealous and play with that. Maybe add Krenko and go wider. Thanks!
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
So, I didn't see any comments in the thread regarding Olivia, Mobilized for War!
1) When you flip a creature, you may discard.
2) It gives a +1/+1 buff, and haste.
3) It's fairly cheap to cast from hand.
What's your feelings Snowfox? A keeper?
Mindless Automaton, Rummaging Goblin and Sliversmith come in off flips and allow you to discard for value.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
I have run into similar issues and have switched between a few cards to be able to dump my hand. Currently I have had luck with Liliana, Heretical Healer and Sadistic Hypnotist as they both cover multiple applications, although I am running Teferi's Puzzle Box in my list which seems to smooth things out for me if I can land it.
So far, Skirge Familiar has been the only one to come even remotely close to what I'm looking for, but I may play around with Olivia for a couple of reasons:
All that to say, I think the card is definitely worth testing. Thanks for the recommendation!
I do still need to grab a foil Liliana, Heretical Healer as I feel she needs another round of testing in my own list. Discard, recursion, and she exists as one of the only planeswalkers that Grenzo can actually flip.
Yessir! Ashnod's Altar and Nim Deathmantle are already busted by themselves; but together, they enable so many combos. I probably should include this in the combo section of the primer since it's relatively easy to assemble.
Hey stu.! It definitely works off of Grenzo's activation, but I left it out for two reasons:
I hope this explains my reasoning for its exclusion. You'll have to let me know how your first couple of games with the deck goes!
One game recently I got her to Ult with the blockers and removal i had available, and it was pretty much over on the spot as she gets all players creatures with her emblem <3
You've convinced me to test it out again! Even if it turns out to be too slow in the main list, I'm confident it will find a spot in my non-infinite version.
Thanks for the inspiration!
I imagine you'll wait until the full set is out to look at what might make it into the deck, but Mayhem Devil looks promising.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
Let me know how it goes for you. It seems a little slow to me, but I'd be open to hear about your testing.
Glad to hear you've been having fun! And I completely agree with you. Deathbringer Thoctar is an absolute bro, and I love flipping him just as much as my opponent's hate seeing him. He's often their primary target for a Path to Exile since they know how problematic he can be.
As for the review, I am indeed waiting on the full spoiler. But I can say currently, I have only see two potential includes (Mayhem Devil being one of them). Overall, I've been a little disappointed, but I can't expect the list to receive a bomb every set
What do you think? For me it's an auto-include, even over judith, but I will have to think about what to take out.
Honestly, there's not a lot for Grenzo here. There were really only two cards I found that even interest me:
- Mayhem Devil - Another great source of ping damage. It triggers off of any sac which makes it interesting versus other sac heavy match-ups. I'm not sure what I'd replace for this though. It's definitely not overtaking Deathbringer Thoctar or Goblin Sharpshooter as death triggers are so much more reliable (and are what allow us to ping down boards). I could see the argument for Judith, the Scourge Diva, but even then, I like her +1 power enabler as well as her Diva-ness.
- Bolas's Citadel - What?!!?!? We're talking about a noncreature card in this primer? Well, yes, but not vehemently. I really like this card as a method of utilizing our top deck and not delving into our available mana for Grenzo activations. Would I ever cast this from hand? No. Would I like to have this enter the battlefield via a Goblin Welder or Kuldotha Forgemaster activation? Sure, but I'd rather have Ashnod's Altar first. So I don't know if it's worth it, but it should be fun testing out to see if I can get it online.
Those are my thoughts at least. Hopefully Modern Horizons will give us some exciting toys to play with.