Any thought to Vindictive Vampire at all? It does provide additional sacrifice value in the same style as Zulaport Cutthroat. No non-token clause either.
Any thought to Vindictive Vampire at all? It does provide additional sacrifice value in the same style as Zulaport Cutthroat. No non-token clause either.
Blood Artist targets a single opponent, whereas Vindictive Vampire hits all opponents and does not target (in case hexproof is relevant). The cost doesn't matter as the intent is not to cast this from hand at all.
I am wondering if you have suggestions on how to tune this deck to play in no particular meta. I dont have a playgroup but go to a couple large stores in my area for FNM commander pods and some casual games. There are so many different people I end up playing with, its hard to pin down which cards should be a standard if I never know what im up against. Some people play really competitive, but others maybe 50%. I've flip-flopped on cards likeSilent Arbiter, Balthor the Defiled and Mindclaw Shaman though the deck always preforms really well. Its just tough when you know you dont happen to have a good answer for a specific problem when it comes up.
From my experience, since we're curving into Grenzo on turn three it is nice to have some two-drops to add value to the board. This sets us up for the mid-game as each creature already present on the board adds to the strength of each flip.
It depends how hard you want to prioritize the drain life effects. I wouldn't see anything wrong with playing all three (though Zulaport Cutthroat is the essential one).
From my experience, since we're curving into Grenzo on turn three it is nice to have some two-drops to add value to the board. This sets us up for the mid-game as each creature already present on the board adds to the strength of each flip.
It depends how hard you want to prioritize the drain life effects. I wouldn't see anything wrong with playing all three (though Zulaport Cutthroat is the essential one).
I agree with your assessment. It really depends on how important these effects are to you. The list is very flexible and can easily switch in different creatures for different needs. But I would place the following priority in including these creatures in a list: Zulaport Cutthroat > Blood Artist > Vindictive Vampire.
I typically prioritize life loss over damage as it goes through a lot more things, and Blood Artist is nice in that he sees all creature deaths. So you pinging down 20 tokens with Deathbringer Thoctar just netted you 20 damage to your opponent as well.
I am wondering if you have suggestions on how to tune this deck to play in no particular meta. I dont have a playgroup but go to a couple large stores in my area for FNM commander pods and some casual games. There are so many different people I end up playing with, its hard to pin down which cards should be a standard if I never know what im up against. Some people play really competitive, but others maybe 50%. I've flip-flopped on cards likeSilent Arbiter, Balthor the Defiled and Mindclaw Shaman though the deck always preforms really well. Its just tough when you know you dont happen to have a good answer for a specific problem when it comes up.
That's difficult and I understand that dilemma. I also have two groups I play with that hold differing philosophies (high-power tuned vs casual), and I've found my current list to meet both demands pretty well. I may occasionally place an additional restriction on myself in the casual group (like no infinite combos, delaying flips until turn 6-8), but I've found that in both metas it can do extremely well and not be oppressive.
Really it depends on what you run up against most often; if you see a lot of token decks, throw in Silent Arbiter. If you play against a Vial Smasher the Fierce, include Mindclaw Shaman. As stated above, the list is flexible to meet your needs, you just have to determine what is lacking from the list and what you feel is currently under-performing.
Got the deck put together, ready to play. Subbed in Hell's Caretaker as I love that card. Am also curious about Millikin... do you find it useful to get the random dump into the graveyard? Was thinking of swapping out Plague Myr for it.
Got the deck put together, ready to play. Subbed in Hell's Caretaker as I love that card. Am also curious about Millikin... do you find it useful to get the random dump into the graveyard? Was thinking of swapping out Plague Myr for it.
I personally have found it pretty useful since our expensive creatures are much more accessible from the graveyard; but I don't think Plague Myr is a bad substitute. I just recently removed Plague Myr from my own list to test another card out, so up until recently I ran both.
First of all, congrats for your work on this deck. Insanely fun!
Second, I have a couple of questions:
1. No love for balthor the defiled? I see you got inspiration from Zervintz list, who plays it. I think it´s great for this deck (it won me a couple of matches last week).
2. How about your latest changes? (judith, the scourge diva, kuldotha forgemaster and emrakul's hatcher).
First of all, congrats for your work on this deck. Insanely fun!
Second, I have a couple of questions:
1. No love for balthor the defiled? I see you got inspiration from Zervintz list, who plays it. I think it´s great for this deck (it won me a couple of matches last week).
2. How about your latest changes? (judith, the scourge diva, kuldotha forgemaster and emrakul's hatcher).
Thanks @manugl84! Here are my thoughts:
1. I love Balthor the Defiled. He was in my original list and has been in my alternative picks list since his removal. I just didn't have any luck with him for the first several games I had played with the deck, but I actually am considering putting him back in to give him another go.
2. Here are my thoughts on the recent changes:
Kuldotha Forgemaster - Love it. I just won with it in my most recent game by tutoring an Ashnod's Altar, then generating enough mana to recur the Forgemaster and re-activate it for a Heartstone; the game was super over at that point. It's terrifyingly fast, and if it can get off one activation, the game is typically over.
Emrakul's Hatcher - Much more effective than Priest of Gix. He allows me to store up the mana for later or provide additional creatures to our numerous death effects.
Judith, the Scourge Diva - Honestly haven't had the chance to test her out much. I still have yet to flip her, so she requires more testing. But if she doesn't perform up to par, I might put Balthor back in her place.
So I've done a decent amount of testing off Judith to have an opinion on her. She's good, perhaps not a standout in play, but she does a little of a lot of things this deck likes:
*Shaman to hold Thornbite (aka becomes bigger Sharpshooter with Giant)
*Buffs Grenzo and Tokens
*Is an infinite payoff
*Can be removal for opponent's or your own creature if you need more death triggers.
I feel like her best synergy with the deck is actually with Thoctar, Goblin Sharpshooter, and Thornbite Staff. She can be very helpful in helping clear certain toughness thresholds.
Had a game recently with a Thornbite equipped Lightning Crafter and her in play. Someone had just Mystical Tutor'd for a boardwipe, and in response I sacrificed a creature to trigger both cards. Used the Judith to kill a x/1 in play to further trigger the Lightning Crafter, eventually allowing me to do over 10+ damage to kill him before he could draw.
Been playing Grenzo for the past few years and I'm curious what people like for a graveyard hate package. I don't play against a ton of graveyard shenanigans but there is a Meren deck that can be annoying quite once it gets going. Of course there's our old buddy Junktroller who serves multiple purposes in this deck but I like to have access to a little more than that.
I've had some success with Withered Wretch as a 2 power creature that Grenzo can flip and it's something fairly cheap to activate. Also holding mana up for Wretch goes hand-in-hand with what Grenzo wants to do anyways so it interacts nicely in that regard.
Similarly I've also tried Nezumi Graverobber but I've never actually managed to flip it so it's basically a Withered Wretch that's more expensive to use (and also needs colored mana). The flipped version does have a strong effect but if that never comes up then I have to deem the card not worthwhile.
There's also stuff like Crypt Creeper and Heap Doll which are kind of neat as they sac themselves but probably a bit too weak of an effect overall.
Bojuka Bog is an obvious freeroll in this deck. One shot exile someone's grave is handy. Can be a bit awkward if you draw it too early but I'm usually pretty happy having one in my deck.
Yet to try some other non-creatures like Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, Rakdos Charm, etc though I think for the most part I don't really want em since creatures tend to be better (especially in the case of Relic which nukes my own GY).
Looking through some cards I found Agent of Erebos which is a Tormod's crypt ETB effect on a creature. With a sac outlet/recursion you could in theory use it multiple times so that might be another good option. Anyone tested with it?
----
Also curious why no mention of Cloak and Dagger in the primer. This card is often better than any of the Lightning Greaves/Swiftfoot Boots type of effects in this deck since it not only auto equips to Grenzo but even boosts his power so you can save mana on casting him. Obviously adding non-creatures isn't ideal but I do think this equipment is worthwhile.
Been playing Grenzo for the past few years and I'm curious what people like for a graveyard hate package. I don't play against a ton of graveyard shenanigans but there is a Meren deck that can be annoying quite once it gets going. Of course there's our old buddy Junktroller who serves multiple purposes in this deck but I like to have access to a little more than that.
I've had some success with Withered Wretch as a 2 power creature that Grenzo can flip and it's something fairly cheap to activate. Also holding mana up for Wretch goes hand-in-hand with what Grenzo wants to do anyways so it interacts nicely in that regard.
Similarly I've also tried Nezumi Graverobber but I've never actually managed to flip it so it's basically a Withered Wretch that's more expensive to use (and also needs colored mana). The flipped version does have a strong effect but if that never comes up then I have to deem the card not worthwhile.
There's also stuff like Crypt Creeper and Heap Doll which are kind of neat as they sac themselves but probably a bit too weak of an effect overall.
Bojuka Bog is an obvious freeroll in this deck. One shot exile someone's grave is handy. Can be a bit awkward if you draw it too early but I'm usually pretty happy having one in my deck.
Yet to try some other non-creatures like Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, Rakdos Charm, etc though I think for the most part I don't really want em since creatures tend to be better (especially in the case of Relic which nukes my own GY).
Looking through some cards I found Agent of Erebos which is a Tormod's crypt ETB effect on a creature. With a sac outlet/recursion you could in theory use it multiple times so that might be another good option. Anyone tested with it?
----
Also curious why no mention of Cloak and Dagger in the primer. This card is often better than any of the Lightning Greaves/Swiftfoot Boots type of effects in this deck since it not only auto equips to Grenzo but even boosts his power so you can save mana on casting him. Obviously adding non-creatures isn't ideal but I do think this equipment is worthwhile.
I don´t play a lot against graveyard shenanigans in my playgroup (mainly Meren and Phenax), but if I were to play more graveyard hate I´d go for withered wretch and agent of erebos. Being creatures is key here.
As for cloak and dagger, I agree with you to be worthwile, but also agree that being an artifact is not ideal. I removed mana crypt from my list some days ago because I've flipped it several times with Grenzo. I replaced it with a plague myr
For Grenzo, I think it's easier to just focus on the actual pieces that are recurring instead of the cards in the grave. Kill Meren with more copies of Rav. Chups and friends, use Sharpshooter triggers to find ways to clear Meren out. When it comes to targeted graveyard hate, it can be really low impact. Better to nuke a grave, and we don't have a good creature choice for that (I think?).
Ok so in my FNM randomish meta, i have run into a lot of superfriends or just janky PW style decks. Which do you think would be a better add Thief of Blood or Vampire Hexmage or both/something else?
I´d go for vampire hexmage only because it can be easily played from hand. Another option could be phyrexian revoker, which can be used for any kind of permanent (except lands, sadly).
For Grenzo, I think it's easier to just focus on the actual pieces that are recurring instead of the cards in the grave. Kill Meren with more copies of Rav. Chups and friends, use Sharpshooter triggers to find ways to clear Meren out. When it comes to targeted graveyard hate, it can be really low impact. Better to nuke a grave, and we don't have a good creature choice for that (I think?).
Agent of Erebos nukes a whole grave, I think it's the only one though. I probably run more Nekrataals than most people but it's still nice to have access to grave hate. Also a lot of the Nekrataal effects can't even kill black creatures so they are of dubious value vs Meren.
Ok so in my FNM randomish meta, i have run into a lot of superfriends or just janky PW style decks. Which do you think would be a better add Thief of Blood or Vampire Hexmage or both/something else?
Thief seems bad since he takes counters off your own Grenzo even if he does kill every PW as opposed to just one. I think given the amount of recursion Grenzo has access to Hexmage removing only one PW is an issue that can be worked around.
Thanks for the thoughts, Hoboz! I think you're right in that Judith, the Scourge Diva is a subtle but powerful mini-engine. So I'll keep her in for now.
As for the other cards being discussed, I agree with the sentiments on Agent of Erebos and Vampire Hexmage. I think both are very solid inclusions if your meta dictates it, and both deserve to be on the Alternate Picks list.
Vampire Hexmage is much easier to cast than Thief of Blood and as others have pointed out, doesn't remove Grenzo's counters which can really mess up your groove.
First time posting here, and I have to say snowfox, congratulations on the primer status, you made an awesome deck! I hadn't seen Grenzo, Dungeon Warden before, and was quite intrigued by him. About 4 years ago I put together a Kiki-Jiki goblin deck, and are quite familiar with his antics. My kids and their friends hated on me something fierce. But Grenzo, he's a little different, seemingly much more explosive. So I'm in the process of putting this deck together, and looking forward to playtesting it. So with that said, I went on scryfall, and did a few searches to see if I could find any gems that all you MtG bloodhounds might have missed. I'm not sure if any of them fit, but was looking to get your feedback, and just throw them out there for everyone to evaluate.
First thing I have to say is I like making people discard, and Sadistic Hypnotist is one of my absolute favorite cards to do it, especially in a token deck. A couple other cards that go with the discard theme are Burglar Rat, Liliana's Specter, and Cackling Fiend. Sure none allow you to view and pick the card, but they make ALL opponents discard. If you want to be more active in the selection process, we also have Disciple of Phenax.
Your current iteration of Grenzo is more of a swiss army knife toolbox, able to deal with a multitude of challenges, which I really like. My question here is have you played a more themed Grenzo with lots of goblins? Obviously a themed deck would include all the standard goblins which I won't list here. But one token generator not mentioned yet is Marsh Flitter, and he's a sac outlet too. Oh, and how about Thopter Engineer? That haste for artifacts is sweet.
A mana ramp artifact I didn't see mentioned was Cathodion. The fact that he needs to die to be effective probably keeps him off the list though.
Thanks, MtG_Maniac! Always glad to see another dungeoneer join us. A lot of suggestions all in one post, so here are my thoughts/comments:
Sadistic Hypnotist - He was actually in my earliest build, but as the build became more and more combo-centric, it relied heavily on instant speed sac outlets. Unfortunately, while this guy's effect is powerful, he fails in this regard tremendously. I had several games where I flipped the Hypnotist in a situation where I needed an instant speed sac outlet and lost due to restriction. So I removed him and haven't looked back since. However, I wouldn't dissuade anyone else from running him. He's in my Alternative Picks list for a reason; he's super powerful.
Marsh Flitter - Not a bad creature by any means, but I'm not a fan of the restriction to saccing goblins. The only restrictive sac outlet I run is Skirk Prospector because he makes up for the restriction by translating directly to more flips.
Thopter Engineer - As a token producer, it seems lacking and the haste it provides to artifacts is alright, but doesn't seem impactful enough for me. I typically get Anger in the graveyard anyways, so I'm not sure an additional artifact-only source of hastiness is needed.
Cathodion - Never been a huge fan of mana payouts that require the creature's death. It's slow and ends up being a major loss if Grenzo is removed before you have a sac outlet to access the mana.
Hell's Caretaker - Once again, the speed restriction for me is a killer. I can't tell you how many games I've won with a Merciless Eviction on the stack. And in those situations, speed restrictions = dead flips which can result in lost games.
Apprentice Necromancer/Doomed Necromancer - I'm also not a fan of additional mana costs on creatures. I prefer to utilize all of my mana on Grenzo unless it's an extremely potent effect (i.e. tutoring with Fleshwrither or Moggcatcher). There's a lot of free graveyard recursive creatures that I would rather run.
Summoner's Egg - I actually am intrigued by this card, and might try it out for fun. My only concern is if I have no creatures in hand, it may feel like a wasted flip (which I try to avoid at all costs).
Grave Defiler/Thrumming Stone - These types of cards have fallen out of my favor due to bad experiences. I've had several occurrences where I've looked at the top 3-5 of my deck, saw all noncreatures, and had to put them on the bottom and screw myself over for that many flips. I've taken out multiple of these types of cards already from my original list and the only remaining one is Spinerock Knoll which at least allows me to exile a noncreature card and potentially play it. If you'd like to test out these kinds of effects, I'd recommend Clone Shell as another cool choice, but I personally choose to shy away from them.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
Happy to hear it! Let me know how your games go when you get to test it out!
I think blood artist would be a better choice.
Is there an upside I'm missing to BA over VV?
It depends how hard you want to prioritize the drain life effects. I wouldn't see anything wrong with playing all three (though Zulaport Cutthroat is the essential one).
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
I agree with your assessment. It really depends on how important these effects are to you. The list is very flexible and can easily switch in different creatures for different needs. But I would place the following priority in including these creatures in a list: Zulaport Cutthroat > Blood Artist > Vindictive Vampire.
I typically prioritize life loss over damage as it goes through a lot more things, and Blood Artist is nice in that he sees all creature deaths. So you pinging down 20 tokens with Deathbringer Thoctar just netted you 20 damage to your opponent as well.
That's difficult and I understand that dilemma. I also have two groups I play with that hold differing philosophies (high-power tuned vs casual), and I've found my current list to meet both demands pretty well. I may occasionally place an additional restriction on myself in the casual group (like no infinite combos, delaying flips until turn 6-8), but I've found that in both metas it can do extremely well and not be oppressive.
Really it depends on what you run up against most often; if you see a lot of token decks, throw in Silent Arbiter. If you play against a Vial Smasher the Fierce, include Mindclaw Shaman. As stated above, the list is flexible to meet your needs, you just have to determine what is lacking from the list and what you feel is currently under-performing.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
I personally have found it pretty useful since our expensive creatures are much more accessible from the graveyard; but I don't think Plague Myr is a bad substitute. I just recently removed Plague Myr from my own list to test another card out, so up until recently I ran both.
First of all, congrats for your work on this deck. Insanely fun!
Second, I have a couple of questions:
1. No love for balthor the defiled? I see you got inspiration from Zervintz list, who plays it. I think it´s great for this deck (it won me a couple of matches last week).
2. How about your latest changes? (judith, the scourge diva, kuldotha forgemaster and emrakul's hatcher).
Thanks @manugl84! Here are my thoughts:
1. I love Balthor the Defiled. He was in my original list and has been in my alternative picks list since his removal. I just didn't have any luck with him for the first several games I had played with the deck, but I actually am considering putting him back in to give him another go.
2. Here are my thoughts on the recent changes:
*Shaman to hold Thornbite (aka becomes bigger Sharpshooter with Giant)
*Buffs Grenzo and Tokens
*Is an infinite payoff
*Can be removal for opponent's or your own creature if you need more death triggers.
I feel like her best synergy with the deck is actually with Thoctar, Goblin Sharpshooter, and Thornbite Staff. She can be very helpful in helping clear certain toughness thresholds.
Had a game recently with a Thornbite equipped Lightning Crafter and her in play. Someone had just Mystical Tutor'd for a boardwipe, and in response I sacrificed a creature to trigger both cards. Used the Judith to kill a x/1 in play to further trigger the Lightning Crafter, eventually allowing me to do over 10+ damage to kill him before he could draw.
I've had some success with Withered Wretch as a 2 power creature that Grenzo can flip and it's something fairly cheap to activate. Also holding mana up for Wretch goes hand-in-hand with what Grenzo wants to do anyways so it interacts nicely in that regard.
Similarly I've also tried Nezumi Graverobber but I've never actually managed to flip it so it's basically a Withered Wretch that's more expensive to use (and also needs colored mana). The flipped version does have a strong effect but if that never comes up then I have to deem the card not worthwhile.
There's also stuff like Crypt Creeper and Heap Doll which are kind of neat as they sac themselves but probably a bit too weak of an effect overall.
Bojuka Bog is an obvious freeroll in this deck. One shot exile someone's grave is handy. Can be a bit awkward if you draw it too early but I'm usually pretty happy having one in my deck.
Yet to try some other non-creatures like Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, Rakdos Charm, etc though I think for the most part I don't really want em since creatures tend to be better (especially in the case of Relic which nukes my own GY).
Looking through some cards I found Agent of Erebos which is a Tormod's crypt ETB effect on a creature. With a sac outlet/recursion you could in theory use it multiple times so that might be another good option. Anyone tested with it?
----
Also curious why no mention of Cloak and Dagger in the primer. This card is often better than any of the Lightning Greaves/Swiftfoot Boots type of effects in this deck since it not only auto equips to Grenzo but even boosts his power so you can save mana on casting him. Obviously adding non-creatures isn't ideal but I do think this equipment is worthwhile.
I don´t play a lot against graveyard shenanigans in my playgroup (mainly Meren and Phenax), but if I were to play more graveyard hate I´d go for withered wretch and agent of erebos. Being creatures is key here.
As for cloak and dagger, I agree with you to be worthwile, but also agree that being an artifact is not ideal. I removed mana crypt from my list some days ago because I've flipped it several times with Grenzo. I replaced it with a plague myr
Agent of Erebos nukes a whole grave, I think it's the only one though. I probably run more Nekrataals than most people but it's still nice to have access to grave hate. Also a lot of the Nekrataal effects can't even kill black creatures so they are of dubious value vs Meren.
Thief seems bad since he takes counters off your own Grenzo even if he does kill every PW as opposed to just one. I think given the amount of recursion Grenzo has access to Hexmage removing only one PW is an issue that can be worked around.
As for the other cards being discussed, I agree with the sentiments on Agent of Erebos and Vampire Hexmage. I think both are very solid inclusions if your meta dictates it, and both deserve to be on the Alternate Picks list.
Vampire Hexmage is much easier to cast than Thief of Blood and as others have pointed out, doesn't remove Grenzo's counters which can really mess up your groove.
Agent of Erebos is an effective mass nuke for other GY shenanigan decks, and can easily be found through several of our tutors (Imperial Recruiter and Fleshwrither).
An old one that I've been considering for my deck is City of Shadows. Between my tokens and my opponent's wraths, I think this might actually fit.
I love Petrified Field as a back up to flipping one of your powerful lands! Am definitely going to have to find a spot for this.
I'm not as confident about City of Shadows. Seems really slow to me, and super inefficient on first glance. You'll have to let me know how it plays.
First thing I have to say is I like making people discard, and Sadistic Hypnotist is one of my absolute favorite cards to do it, especially in a token deck. A couple other cards that go with the discard theme are Burglar Rat, Liliana's Specter, and Cackling Fiend. Sure none allow you to view and pick the card, but they make ALL opponents discard. If you want to be more active in the selection process, we also have Disciple of Phenax.
Your current iteration of Grenzo is more of a swiss army knife toolbox, able to deal with a multitude of challenges, which I really like. My question here is have you played a more themed Grenzo with lots of goblins? Obviously a themed deck would include all the standard goblins which I won't list here. But one token generator not mentioned yet is Marsh Flitter, and he's a sac outlet too. Oh, and how about Thopter Engineer? That haste for artifacts is sweet.
A mana ramp artifact I didn't see mentioned was Cathodion. The fact that he needs to die to be effective probably keeps him off the list though.
What I'm really excited about are the recursion cards I found. Hell's Caretaker has already been mention, but his weakness is the timing regarding activation. How about Apprentice Necromancer and Doomed Necromancer? Also Summoner's Egg could work too, and he's an artifact.
Ok, now what do you think of Grave Defiler?! Since we have no zombies in the deck, you can preset the next 4 Grenzo flips. Or am I missing something?
The last thought I'll leave you with is this, what about Thrumming Stone? Now any card played becomes a Grave Defiler!!!