I think last night's game, in which I missed a few early land drops, never ramped, but still assembled a combo (CDM+AO+DG+PA) eventually after losing more than half my life to other players — and on the back of 6 total lands of which only 3 were Swamps — is a good indication that I don't really need much land ramp. It's a nice-to-have, but enough engine pieces to produce mana is all I really need to get going. This makes me consider adding 2-3 mana rocks like Charcoal Diamond and Fellwar Stone in place of Sword of the Animist. Walking Atlas is still worth testing, I think. Backing off the reliance on land ramp probably undermines the effectiveness of Mutilate, so that could become Damnation easily. On the other hand, being restricted to land-only ramp has been an interesting constraint. I'll keep mulling it over.
I also found myself wanting a cheap form of reanimation for early in the game (especially when I was stuck on 1B for 3 turns), so I'll also consider Animate Dead or Reanimate and where I might fit that in — perhaps in the place of Vampiric Rites. Rites loses a few points now because it was not helpful when I had nothing to sacrifice (while Erebos was), and when I did have things to sacrifice I was sacrificing them to other things while Grim Haruspex was drawing me cards. I think Krav is probably better in its effect since it's also another way I could mill somebody out with a bunch of tokens. He's in Marchesa at the moment, though, and would have to displace something other than Rites in this deck.
Aetherworks Marvel drawn in this game, but not used because the combo plus Grim Haruspex could have drawn and cast my entire deck instead. That's the kind of situation where Vedalken Orrery could have lent synergy for being able to do it EOT instead of on my main phase. I think Marvel loses a couple points for now. It needs some different situations to test it still.
Edit: Also wanted to add that, in regard to the remark about Walking Atlas, I had an issue with Krosan Restorer in my Spider Spawning deck where I never got to tap it once. So I'm also hesitant to use tap-based abilities on creatures due to the need for haste or reanimating them EOT with Chainer so they can immediately be able to use it.
Regarding the closing of MTGS
I'll be going along to the new home the mods are building since so many others are. I may even be able to put more work into the OP before read-only mode hits. If I'm able to begin the new thread over there before time is up here, I'll edit the OP to add a link and a statement. Alright, here's my take on Modern Horizons:
Azra Smokeshaper — ETB to make a creature indestructible is functional in Chainer, but not nearly as useful as removal or other ETB stuff.
Cordial Vampire — A vampire theme is a definite possible direction for Chainer, and this one could be good in that.
Defile — Even with a bunch of snow swamps, this is not better in this deck than Tragic Slip would be. Edit: DOH! RTFC, lyon.
Feaster of Fools — We don't sac en-masse like that, really. Seems more of a Marchesa kind of card.
Force of Despair — This one is interesting, but still more situational than other wipes available to us. Could be nice versus the kind of deck that would make infinite tokens with haste and swing the same turn.
Plague Engineer — This one is cool. Goblin/Elf/etc. Potentially good against tribal token decks... but only against tribal tokens decks assuming they're not buffing the tokens. Massacre Wurm is still better.
Warteye Witch — I took out Viscera Seer (not a bad sac outlet for Chainer in general) because I was rarely actually sacking creatures to it. If there was a better outlet (like Phyrexian Altar) I'd be using that one instead. But I do love my trigger engines that do stuff when I sack my critters. This would be right at home with my card draw triggers like Grim Haruspex and Smothering Abomination.
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician — Cool card, but I just don't think it's for this. At least not for this take on Chainer. Not only do you have to have your own creature to sac (which is where Vampiric Rites falls down sometimes), but you have to have another to target (though Yawgmoth is legal) for the -1/-1 counter or you won't be able to draw that card. This could be fine, but it makes me wary of it.
Mox Tantalite — I'd rather have the sooner benefit of Fellwar Stone or Charcoal Diamond, but if this doesn't come too late in the game three turns usually isn't terrible. For any color to hypothetically help with Praetor's Grasp, I'd still prefer Fellwar or even
Prismatic Vista — This is actually a really good substitute for the fetches I run, and I may even replace one to free it up for another deck.
In Short
I might test Yawgmoth. Force of Despair would be worth testing if I had more sudden-swarm decks to contend with in my meta. I have a suspicion that Warteye Witch is a winner, though.
Defile looks at all Swamps you control, not just Snow-Covered Swamps. I think you're underrating the card compared to Tragic Slip, though. Slip is obviously much better in your deck than in mine, but I would think there are times where Morbid can't be triggered so the Slip is insufficient. Defile has a longer ramp up but should be able to keep reasonable pace with the toughness of problematic creatures like Gaddock Teeg or Anafenza the Foremost.
Defile looks at all Swamps you control, not just Snow-Covered Swamps. I think you're underrating the card compared to Tragic Slip, though. Slip is obviously much better in your deck than in mine, but I would think there are times where Morbid can't be triggered so the Slip is insufficient. Defile has a longer ramp up but should be able to keep reasonable pace with the toughness of problematic creatures like Gaddock Teeg or Anafenza the Foremost.
Yeah, I mixed Defile up a bit with Dead of Winter probably. I could definitely be underestimating it, but I also don't run Tragic Slip. And thank all that is Unholy that I don't have Teeg or Anafenza in my meta!
Alright, here's my take on Core Set 2020, and I'm going to read the cards more carefully this time:
Cavalier of Night — Simply because of it bringing back a CMC <= 3 creature when it dies, it could have some synergy in more casual Chainer decks.
Dread Presence — Honorable mention for being a Nightmare, but probably doesn't actually do enough from swampfall.
Epicure of Blood — Likely functional along with the lifegainers and Blood Artist-type critters. Probably only room for it in more casual decks, as tuned decks and higher are often tight for space, and this thing doesn't do anything on its own. (Also probably has a high potential of being win-more.)
Scheming Symmetry — This one I like and want to test. I wonder how well it will do as a politicking tool, especially when I can mill or steal their chosen card.
Vilis, Broker of Blood — Where Razaketh is great for tutoring (so much so that I don't run him in my build because he's just Too Much™), this guy feels like the card-draw counterpart to Razaketh. I really like the high-risk and high-reward this demon offers. Going to have to test him. The idea of drawing 3 cards every time I use Chainer makes me salivate. And not just that but he comes with an ability to trigger that. B and 2 life for 2 cards, and just target his giant 8/8 body with the -1/-1? All the yes.
Salvager of Ruin — This one is interesting. Restrictive on timing/context, but being able to return any type of permanent could be nice.
Lotus Field — I don't like that it enters tapped, but it doesn't require the sacrificial lands be untapped and it has hexproof, which are decent upsides over stuff like Lotus Vale. I'll probably be adding Prismatic Vista instead, but this one's not terrible.
If you think there's anything else that should have caught me eye or you're curious what I have to say about it, let me know and I'll edit it in.
Bone Miser: I like this one. I don't currently have enough discard to support it, but there's potential to get some nice incidental value from it just from discarding to hand size (and Memory Jar/Mindslicer) since I don't run any hand-size effects. Could retest Thought Gorger with this.
Curse of Fool's Wisdom: This seems to go in the pile with stuff like Subversion that supports my life total in an event-based way but never actually sees play in the list.
Gift of Doom: I doubt I'll use this card in this deck, but I like that it can provide a non-token creature in a pinch (for triggers like Grim Haruspex). But I like more that it provides an instant-speed sacrifice outlet that does not use the stack (which is what also makes mana source sacrifice outlets like Phyrexian Altar special). In fact, morphing it to the aura to make something indestructible doesn't use the stack, either.
K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth: I know this guy is powerful, but I can't help but feel like it's a liability in a deck where I already spend a bunch of life. Definitely getting a copy, but we'll see if it's useful for Chainer at all.
Thieving Amalgam: This one intrigues me and is probably the one I want to test the most, really. I get to steal opponents cards as nontoken creatures which is great for many of my triggers. I get incremental life support as I go about my usual business and whittle opponent life totals in a way I'm unlikely to turn into a table-killing loop (at least not without infinite life and mana from somewhere else or Sepulchral Primordial).
Bloodthirsty Blade: Cute trick. It's interesting if you want to sow some chaos to make players keep their eyes elsewhere while you develop resources, but I'd probably rather steal something.
Empowered Autogenerator: Many have called this a trap. We don't have untapping or proliferation, but a deck that likes to protract the game through control could get some mana out of it. Probably not this one.
Idol of Oblivion: Good card, but there's more powerful card draw to choose from.
Pendant of Prosperity: I'll test this in some sort of deck sooner or later, but this seems pretty meta-dependent on who you could actually put this on that would actually keep activating it.
Scaretiller: Probably awesome in Phenax. I am curious how it would do with only tapping during combat. Could be handy somewhere Tangle Wire is used.
Scroll of Fate: The potential I see in this one is with my sacrifice outlets, in part. I don't have much discard for getting creatures into the graveyard from my hand, but I have sacrifice outlets. So it could be part of the mechanisms for cheating creatures into play for cheaper via Chainer, Living Death, or Thrilling Encore. But it can also turn a card that's otherwise dead in hand into a nontoken creature on the battlefield to make it useful to other things.
Sanctum of Eternity: Chainer does get targeted, so I'm considering this one. I probably have too many utility lands already, though.
Yeah, I'm pretty much right in line with you on a lot of these, especially K'rrik. I'm planning on getting the deck he's in, so I'll probably at least try him out with Original Flavor Chainer, but it feels like either a trap or win-more, neither of which I'm super interested in right now.
Thieving Amalgam seems great, but overall not a great set for the way I want my deck to run. Although, honestly, getting just one good card per set is probably an OK thing, as fast as they put out new sets right now...
On the other hand this set had 4-5 great cards for Zada.
I like how Thieving Amalgam provides for the deck's main goals without being Spikey. If I were running a Chainer deck that was as strong/fast as possible it probably wouldn't make the cut, though.
K'rrik I see as sortof a mana rock that needs support so you don't pay all your life away. But there are already some pieces like Dross Harvester and Abhorrent Overlord that allow K'rrik to combo with Chainer as long as there's a free sac outlet. With those cards Overlord makes a minimum of 9 tokens which when sacrificed is enough life to cover paying 9 life to Chainer. Even if it's Deathgreeter instead of Dross Harvester it's 8 tokens and sacrificing Overlord along with those is enough to self-sustain the loop. In these loops it's almost like he takes the place of Phyrexian Altar's mana or acts like Pitiless Plunderer would for supporting part of the cost. The main difference is that I'd be using a different sacrifice outlet like Altar of Dementia for net effect outside of the loop instead of relying on something triggering off the Overlord/harpy deaths. Even combos with Torgaar, Famine Incarnate as long as I have at least 10 life to pay 9 to bring back Torgaar I'll be set to 20 and can keep alternating between bringing another creature (down to 11) and then Torgaar again (down to 2, back up to 20). Still at least 4 cards, too (Altar of Dementia again). It could even open up other combo possibilities with Noxious Gearhulk and anything with 9 or more toughness — not that Gearhulk can't already fill that role in the absence of Deathgreeter/Dross Harvester as long as enough mana is also self-sustainable.
So yeah, I guess I see K'rrik as another engine piece for Chainer's combos. I guess I will test him, but the big question will be how dead of a card will it be outside of the combo usage?
I also found myself wanting a cheap form of reanimation for early in the game (especially when I was stuck on 1B for 3 turns), so I'll also consider Animate Dead or Reanimate and where I might fit that in — perhaps in the place of Vampiric Rites. Rites loses a few points now because it was not helpful when I had nothing to sacrifice (while Erebos was), and when I did have things to sacrifice I was sacrificing them to other things while Grim Haruspex was drawing me cards. I think Krav is probably better in its effect since it's also another way I could mill somebody out with a bunch of tokens. He's in Marchesa at the moment, though, and would have to displace something other than Rites in this deck.
Agent of Erebos was absolutely the right choice for graveyard exile. One opponent (piloting Muldrotha) was planning on killing their World Shaper to get at least a dozen landfall triggers (mainly Ob Nixilis, the Fallen and Tatyova, Benthic Druid) and because it wasn't Tormod's Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb I got to control that graveyard again later.
Aetherworks Marvel drawn in this game, but not used because the combo plus Grim Haruspex could have drawn and cast my entire deck instead. That's the kind of situation where Vedalken Orrery could have lent synergy for being able to do it EOT instead of on my main phase. I think Marvel loses a couple points for now. It needs some different situations to test it still.
Edit: Also wanted to add that, in regard to the remark about Walking Atlas, I had an issue with Krosan Restorer in my Spider Spawning deck where I never got to tap it once. So I'm also hesitant to use tap-based abilities on creatures due to the need for haste or reanimating them EOT with Chainer so they can immediately be able to use it.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I'll be going along to the new home the mods are building since so many others are. I may even be able to put more work into the OP before read-only mode hits. If I'm able to begin the new thread over there before time is up here, I'll edit the OP to add a link and a statement.
Alright, here's my take on Modern Horizons:
Azra Smokeshaper — ETB to make a creature indestructible is functional in Chainer, but not nearly as useful as removal or other ETB stuff.
Cordial Vampire — A vampire theme is a definite possible direction for Chainer, and this one could be good in that.
Defile — Even with a bunch of snow swamps, this is not better in this deck than Tragic Slip would be. Edit: DOH! RTFC, lyon.
Feaster of Fools — We don't sac en-masse like that, really. Seems more of a Marchesa kind of card.
Force of Despair — This one is interesting, but still more situational than other wipes available to us. Could be nice versus the kind of deck that would make infinite tokens with haste and swing the same turn.
Plague Engineer — This one is cool. Goblin/Elf/etc. Potentially good against tribal token decks... but only against tribal tokens decks assuming they're not buffing the tokens. Massacre Wurm is still better.
Warteye Witch — I took out Viscera Seer (not a bad sac outlet for Chainer in general) because I was rarely actually sacking creatures to it. If there was a better outlet (like Phyrexian Altar) I'd be using that one instead. But I do love my trigger engines that do stuff when I sack my critters. This would be right at home with my card draw triggers like Grim Haruspex and Smothering Abomination.
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician — Cool card, but I just don't think it's for this. At least not for this take on Chainer. Not only do you have to have your own creature to sac (which is where Vampiric Rites falls down sometimes), but you have to have another to target (though Yawgmoth is legal) for the -1/-1 counter or you won't be able to draw that card. This could be fine, but it makes me wary of it.
Mox Tantalite — I'd rather have the sooner benefit of Fellwar Stone or Charcoal Diamond, but if this doesn't come too late in the game three turns usually isn't terrible. For any color to hypothetically help with Praetor's Grasp, I'd still prefer Fellwar or even
Darksteel Ingot. But I will get one.
Prismatic Vista — This is actually a really good substitute for the fetches I run, and I may even replace one to free it up for another deck.
In Short
I might test Yawgmoth. Force of Despair would be worth testing if I had more sudden-swarm decks to contend with in my meta. I have a suspicion that Warteye Witch is a winner, though.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Cavalier of Night — Simply because of it bringing back a CMC <= 3 creature when it dies, it could have some synergy in more casual Chainer decks.
Dread Presence — Honorable mention for being a Nightmare, but probably doesn't actually do enough from swampfall.
Epicure of Blood — Likely functional along with the lifegainers and Blood Artist-type critters. Probably only room for it in more casual decks, as tuned decks and higher are often tight for space, and this thing doesn't do anything on its own. (Also probably has a high potential of being win-more.)
Scheming Symmetry — This one I like and want to test. I wonder how well it will do as a politicking tool, especially when I can mill or steal their chosen card.
Vilis, Broker of Blood — Where Razaketh is great for tutoring (so much so that I don't run him in my build because he's just Too Much™), this guy feels like the card-draw counterpart to Razaketh. I really like the high-risk and high-reward this demon offers. Going to have to test him. The idea of drawing 3 cards every time I use Chainer makes me salivate. And not just that but he comes with an ability to trigger that. B and 2 life for 2 cards, and just target his giant 8/8 body with the -1/-1? All the yes.
Prismite — Technically another way of getting B from C (thinking of Ashnod's Altar here), but Bog Initiate and Gemstone Array are probably better at that.
Salvager of Ruin — This one is interesting. Restrictive on timing/context, but being able to return any type of permanent could be nice.
Lotus Field — I don't like that it enters tapped, but it doesn't require the sacrificial lands be untapped and it has hexproof, which are decent upsides over stuff like Lotus Vale. I'll probably be adding Prismatic Vista instead, but this one's not terrible.
If you think there's anything else that should have caught me eye or you're curious what I have to say about it, let me know and I'll edit it in.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
The more intriguing ones in bold that I'm most likely to at least test.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Thieving Amalgam seems great, but overall not a great set for the way I want my deck to run. Although, honestly, getting just one good card per set is probably an OK thing, as fast as they put out new sets right now...
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
I like how Thieving Amalgam provides for the deck's main goals without being Spikey. If I were running a Chainer deck that was as strong/fast as possible it probably wouldn't make the cut, though.
K'rrik I see as sortof a mana rock that needs support so you don't pay all your life away. But there are already some pieces like Dross Harvester and Abhorrent Overlord that allow K'rrik to combo with Chainer as long as there's a free sac outlet. With those cards Overlord makes a minimum of 9 tokens which when sacrificed is enough life to cover paying 9 life to Chainer. Even if it's Deathgreeter instead of Dross Harvester it's 8 tokens and sacrificing Overlord along with those is enough to self-sustain the loop. In these loops it's almost like he takes the place of Phyrexian Altar's mana or acts like Pitiless Plunderer would for supporting part of the cost. The main difference is that I'd be using a different sacrifice outlet like Altar of Dementia for net effect outside of the loop instead of relying on something triggering off the Overlord/harpy deaths. Even combos with Torgaar, Famine Incarnate as long as I have at least 10 life to pay 9 to bring back Torgaar I'll be set to 20 and can keep alternating between bringing another creature (down to 11) and then Torgaar again (down to 2, back up to 20). Still at least 4 cards, too (Altar of Dementia again). It could even open up other combo possibilities with Noxious Gearhulk and anything with 9 or more toughness — not that Gearhulk can't already fill that role in the absence of Deathgreeter/Dross Harvester as long as enough mana is also self-sustainable.
So yeah, I guess I see K'rrik as another engine piece for Chainer's combos. I guess I will test him, but the big question will be how dead of a card will it be outside of the combo usage?
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko