I think I first put this deck together after reading through jmdt's still-excellent retired Primer All Your Graveyards are Belong to Me, except that I omitted certain sacrificed-based stax and omitted discard. I didn't want to lean on Grave Pact effects at the time and still don't want to overdo them. I've seen them used one too many times to pin the rest of the board down while the player waits to draw a wincon. Example: Grave Pact, Attrition, and Reassembling Skeleton to keep the rest of the table from having creatures — 100 minutes later everybody else is still around 40 life. On the other hand I'm totally fine with someone dropping Grave Pact and using it to clear the way in order to try to close out the game in a turn or two. I even omitted Sheoldred originally, though I just recently added her to the deck again, as I'm recognizing the value of resource denial to the survival of a MBC deck.
Since the original list, it's has changed numerous times, of course. The biggest changes involved two aspects: 1. removing wincons I found boring; 2. trying out cards I thought might be interesting.
I think the first wincon I removed revolved around Gray Merchant of Asphodel. I first replaced Living Death to try to nerf it, because it was just too easy to loop that with plenty of mana and XHD. Same thing with just directly looping Gary with Chainer (especially with twodoublers out). So eventually Gary got the axe entirely. Exsanguinate was soon to follow because even if I didn't tutor for it, if I had it in hand and enough mana it became, "And now the game's over." That occurred too often for my tastes; I was leaning on it and wanted more challenging win conditions.
On the matter of interesting cards to try, I like Head Games. I like how that works with full-hand discard like Mindslicer or Myojin of Night's Reach. I like how Homeward Path and Faceless Butcher allow me to play politics by reanimating and returning a creature. I like how Ice Cauldron can rattlesnake an answer in an almost-untouchable place — it's a hilarious card I want to find/make a good home for. I like how Mirage Mirror can enable the doubling of a lot of shenanigans for 2.
So here are my thoughts on the direction I'm trying to go:
Theme: In Chainer's story, dementia casters like himself use their own fears and nightmares, learning to control them and manifest them into the real world. In his last moments, Chainer uses the Mirari to pull horrors from all the other dementia caster's minds, too. Thus the Chainer's ability to reanimate from anybody's graveyard, do so repeatedly by not tapping (at the risk of dying), and the final ability that they leave if he leaves. This backstory is the essence of the theme I want to pursue. Actually pulling it off in a more timely manner, Chainer needs some help (hence the presence of loops).
In sticking to this theme (nightmares, horrific things, fears, madness, etc.), I like to use things that are on-theme when possible, even if loosely. I don't want to devote so much to the theme that the deck is less functional. For example, Suffer the Past seems a more on-theme form of graveyard removal than Withered Wretch, though the latter is more easily recurrable. Sifter of Skulls is more on-theme than Pawn of Ulamog. Slum Reaper is more on-theme than Merciless Executioner. Exceptions: Functionality is still important, so not-exactly-nightmarish stuff like Disciple of Griselbrand, etc. are completely acceptable to help make the deck work. He can be rationalized as a cultist in Chainer's team. However, the flavor of individual cards is not nearly as important as the theme of the epic win condition below.
I prefer the typical win conditions be combat and milling, outside of the style wins below. Opponent life lose should be a distant third.
The epic win condition: Steal absolutely everything by looping Gonti, Lord of Luxury to steal everybody's libraries (or at least the nonland cards) and cast whatever I want. Milling into exile works, too.
I don't want to lean on syphoning opponent's life, but still sustain my own life total for paying it to cost's like Chainer, Erebos, Necropotence, etc. Blood Artist is a combo piece that would quickly end my opponents with some of my loops rather than just sustain my life total so I use Deathgreeter and Dross Harvester instead.
Examples: no Gary, no Koko, probably no Exsanguinate. Combat damage with lifelink as well as Crypt Ghast's Extort are both acceptable. While the extort could be turned into a win condition if I happen to set up a storm loop, it should be an option of desperation.
Find a balance of draw and tutors. What I'm trying to avoid is winning with the same cards repeatedly, or assembling a combo too quickly or easily. I'm going for flexibility and some inconsistency in how I achieve victory, to keep things interesting.
Loops should be a bit harder to put together since I want them to be a more occasional win condition. Right now I'm using a 4-card minimum as a rubric for controlling that, as well as the draw-over-tutors guideline.
I also have some self-imposed restrictions on cards I simply will not use in any (or most) circumstances — the chief card relevant to this color identity being Sol Ring.
I welcome comments, though I recognize that most typical suggestions for Chainer may not fit within my self-imposed restrictions. Also any other advice on internal balances, which pieces are winmore vs a piece that would make it more cohesive/robust, is welcome.
So yeah, massive set of changes in this, and some different toys to test.
I'm trying to refocus on variance in games by taking out some tutors for card draw. I'm actually fine with Demonic Tutor staying but it's needed in another deck where it's easier to cast there than Beseech the Queen is here. Final Parting would have been kindof like a black pseudo-Intuition so I can't say it'll never see play in the deck again. I considered Corpse Connoisseur — we'll see if I end up wanting that or Vampiric Tutor for those moments I need to save my hide. Also trying Liliana of the Dark Realms in place of one of the other tutors since tutoring for swamps is harmless. I have a feeling she'll be pretty redundant to the actual ramp and fetches but that emblem is on my bucket list. I also need to test how well ramping goes without Solemn Simulacrum at some point.
Razzy I know would have been amazing as a giant beater, tutor, and sac outlet, but that tutor part is where he's getting benched for now. Torgaar was supposed to be a toolbox piece for bringing somebody's life down from too high or keeping mine afloat — but maybe if I was planning to need the manual override then my other life support wasn't doing too good. Sepulchral Primordial was basically redundancy with Chainer, and to magnify the effect of his ability. In their place, please welcome returning guest Abhorrent "Tokens for Days" Overlord and two brand new guests: Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief and Sheoldred, Whispering One.
Fallen Ideal is a die-hard sacrifice outlet but has no real benefit from the sacrifice, so now we're going to see what it's like to perform surgery on our opponents' hands with Mind Slash. Along the same lines of discard effects we're bringing in Oppression and Myojin of Night's Reach for Dark Deal and Mindslicer (not that 'Slicer isn't good — we're just going to try something different). Plaguecrafter buttons this up as teammate for Slum Reaper that can get a planeswalker or as a Liliana's Specter if our opponents don't have creatures (Specter was on the list for consideration, but I still want to lean more on removal than discard). I considered adding Bloodgift Demon in place of Doom Whisperer, but that Surveil 2 still needs testing.
While Claws of Gix has saved my bacon a time or two, I think Dross Harvester shows some promise for keeping my bacon out of the fire in the first place. Viscera Seer was very often underused by me because, while I wasn't a fan of the timing of the Scry 1 vs draw triggers, I was just always using other outlets. Perhaps the card draw of Vampiric Rites will prove more useful. In place of Ambition's Cost I'm adding the somewhat-similar Infernal Tribute, returning as my sacrifice-a-liability tool. The extra token production may change my mind about Seer someday regarding having card draw vs having scry combined with other card draw, so it's sortof a flex spot between the two, but as a sacrifice outlet it could also become Attrition if I figure I have enough card draw but want more removal.
Somehow I didn't have any graveyard answers other than Chainer himself. I want something not too difficult to recur since an answer might be needed at instant speed. Withered Wretch can be mana intensive but is quite surgical and I've used him before, so we're going to try Agent of Erebos as a wholesale graveyard exile that can be re-used if I happen to get another enchantment on the field after him. Part of the reason for going for the wholesale exile approach is some recent experiences with enchantments and Bruna. Better to just nuke that whole 'yard.
After doing some goldfish testing and realizing I could visualize if Demonlord Belzenlok did anything acceptable through a bit of programming, he's back out and I'm trying Harvester of Souls again. Might end up back to Bloodgift Demon, though. In the simulations, Belzenlok would most often get me 1 card at a time. Half of the frequency of singles I could get 2 cards. Half of that frequency 3 cards. Plus any lands exiled would stay exiled, and I like my lands. Maybe he'd work in a deck that can tolerate the land loss once some sort of value-engine blinking has begun (maybe Marchesa, the Black Rose), but most likely reanimating with Chainer and most likely only getting one card in hand makes it too costly.
Massacre Wurm is too good to stay out for token control. Void Winnower would keep opponents from blocking with tokens, but not prevent a retaliatory attack. Also I figure the cast-prevention would put a target on me. I was initially worried about outright killing a player with Massacre Wurm, but if they have enough tokens for that to happen then they were getting ready to win anyway and there's a decent chance their stuff was not worth stealing to use against the other players. Or I just sac the Wurm before the -2/-2 trigger resolves and they don't die.
I had chosen Deathgreeter to replace Blood Artist because I didn't want to end up leeching the table while trying to combo with Gonti or Sepulchral Primordial instead. However, most of the combos involve a sacrifice outlet and I usually have one out anyway. This means I can just soften people up (particularly as a solution to lifegainers) from the Blood Artist triggers if I'm going for a different win condition, while helping enable a combat win condition and being a backup win condition itself.
I decided I wanted to give this deck more opportunity to pull off its ultimate win condition if possible. Blood Artist afforded a strong temptation to simply machine-gun everybody to death, plus it would kill everybody in the process of a Gonti/Primordial loop anyway... unless I add Abyssal Persecutor to the combo. Anyway, Deathgreeter is back.
Wipes — I had more wipes in the draw version — don't need that many for my group. Damnation is great, but I want to be able to hit other stuff with Nevinyrral's Disk (plus I used the older, more eldritch-horror art). All is Dust doesn't hit artifacts for the most part, and short Toxic Deluge I wanted another -X/-X solution so Mutilate is in for testing (also older, nightmare/Chainer themed art).
Beatsticks — Arena-on-a-stick out to test Belzenlok's card accessing. Phyrexian Obliterator out for a different beatstick in the shape of Void Winnower now that devotion doesn't matter except for Nykthos. I removed Massacre Wurm because it can be a "surprise, you lose!" card if somebody has enough tokens, and I want to avoid having that kind option immediately available. It's why Exsanguinate isn't here. Torgaar replaces it so I can fiddle around with life totals to knock lifegain decks down or keep myself alive (20 life is quite comfortable, really). Abhorrent Overlord may someday see play again, but it forms a rather easy loop with just Chainer and Phyrexian Altar, so let's see if I can steal somebody else's ETB token producer for loops and see how Doom Whisperer fares.
Vedalken Orrery is also one of those cards I would love to have in play every game. In its stead, Ambition's Cost is the last piece of the draw-only version that I'm leaving in for now because it's on-theme. And since I pay life to stuff a lot, I'm going to see how Font of Agonies does, replacing Vampiric Rites.
I had chosen Deathgreeter to replace Blood Artist because I didn't want to end up leeching the table while trying to combo with Gonti or Sepulchral Primordial instead. However, most of the combos involve a sacrifice outlet and I usually have one out anyway. This means I can just soften people up (particularly as a solution to lifegainers) from the Blood Artist triggers if I'm going for a different win condition, while helping enable a combat win condition and being a backup win condition itself. Falkenrath Noble could see a return to the fold since it's flying and is tutorable with Dimir House Guard and Fleshwrither.
Thought Gorger I tried a few times and it wasn't really doing what I wanted, but I did find myself wanting to tutor for one of the noncreature 4-drops, so Dimir House Guard is back.
Imp's Mischief probably won't be as useful with Defense Grid also here, as well as I spend the majority of the time reanimating rather than casting, so for the same reason I'm not too sad if a creature card ends up in the graveyard. Diabolic Intent usually has fodder here for the additional cost, as Demonic Tutor is in another deck (also, being ripped apart and eaten by Crovax is pretty "nightmarish"). Evidently I'm softening slightly on my tutor limitation.
Ice Cauldron is a hilarious effect and I finally got a chance to play with it, but there's nothing I really want to rattlesnake in this deck. Also, I don't want to explain how it works, apparently, so if I ever do try it in another deck, its usefulness better be worth all the explanation. In its place enters Dark Deal, which is more what I wanted out of Thought Gorger in the first place.
Finally, I'm going to test All is Dust instead of Ugin as a wipe that hits enchantments. I probably need better graveyard removal than Shred Memory anyway since that usually serves as a tutor,
but for the most part people are not going to recur their enchantments. Most often they'll be sacrificing creatures, too,
and I probably want them.
Most of these changes are a result of recent discussions in this thread with GloriousGoose and ProfessorWhen. Some cards leaving I still want to test, but the list was feeling way too heavy on testing slots.
Defense Grid is replacing Warping Wail as a more proactive counter deterrent. It could also prevent some EOT shenanigans, but won't hinder Chainer or my sac outlets.
With my relatively recent interest in token producers due to a Meren deck with Grave Pact effects, Vampiric Rites is going to do better work than Infernal Tribute, though I'm probably going to miss Tribute a little bit.
Inventors' Fair was pretty iffy as an artifact tutor since it requires three to activate. Crypt of Agadeem was in to test as a third possible ritual-land. Since it was also a testing slot these are both back to Swamps for now. Still might test the Crypt, but I need to observe how many creatures I typically have in my graveyard. I suspect I just get a lot of mileage out of the first 3-4 I get and nobody stays there very long. Also, the artifact creatures don't help and they're the regulars.
Initially my list was heavily based on jmdt's still-excellent retired Primer All Your Graveyards are Belong to Me and its extended discussion. I learned quite a lot from that thread. Makes up for the Comic Sans in the OP.
I'm also appreciative of the insight and discussions in this thread, especially from ProfessorWhen, GloriousGoose, and benjameenbear.
I must also acknowledge that I've probably gleaned a fair bit from decklists and good discussions had in other mono-black or Bx threads by: GloriousGoose, toctheyounger77, bobthefunny, Outcryqq, and MrCoupon.
Note: I will be adding further, primer-like sections on card selection, interactions, strategy, etc. in the future.
With adding more discard or more opponent creature death, Sangromancer starts looking like it could do some work. It didn't make the cut this last build because it rarely did much for me before with only one discard source and 1-2 wipes.
Blanket of Night as a backup Urborg. Would also help Sheoldred connect.
Cards I'm unsure of keeping (haven't had a chance to test them in a game yet):
Warping Wail could leave until I have a known need to stop sorceries. Withering Boon has been great, so I don't want to cut that. Not sure how much need there is for Imp's Mischief for redirecting a target or countering a Counterspell, but I've been hoping it'll be useful. Redirecting a kicked Rite of Replication is always funny.
Mesmeric Fiend is very on-flavor, but I'm unsure yet how useful he is to picking apart opponent's hands.
Tortured Existence seemed an interesting way to hide a surprise in my hand for reanimation, though I haven't figure out how it could be part of a loop the way Phyrexian Reclamation can. Rings turns it into a discard version of Victimize, though.
I've had a Chainer deck since around 2007 and I cannot overstate the amazing effectiveness of Sadistic Hypnotist. That card can win games almost on its own.
Another great card that I enjoy is Memory Jar. Timing it right can be difficult, but it can serve the dual role of filling graveyards and drawing you cards.
Defense Grid is a useful card against countermagic since most of your instant-speed effects are coming from activated abilities of Chainer and your sac outlets.
I have not felt the need to run Tortured Existence in my list. I replaced it with Dark Deal and haven't looked back.
I also replaced mt Infernal Tribute with Vampiric Rites since I found I was more interested in sacrificing tokens over non-creatures. The lower CMC is nice, too.
You probably don't need Ice Cauldron (even though it's a hilarious card) and Gemstone Array. I might add in Expedition Map if you are worried about getting access to Urborg/Coffers/Nykthos.
With adding more discard or more opponent creature death, Sangromancer starts looking like it could do some work. It didn't make the cut this last build because it rarely did much for me before with only one discard source and 1-2 wipes.
Blanket of Night as a backup Urborg. Would also help Sheoldred connect.
Cards I'm unsure of keeping (haven't had a chance to test them in a game yet):
Warping Wail could leave until I have a known need to stop sorceries. Withering Boon has been great, so I don't want to cut that. Not sure how much need there is for Imp's Mischief for redirecting a target or countering a Counterspell, but I've been hoping it'll be useful. Redirecting a kicked Rite of Replication is always funny.
Mesmeric Fiend is very on-flavor, but I'm unsure yet how useful he is to picking apart opponent's hands.
Tortured Existence seemed an interesting way to hide a surprise in my hand for reanimation, though I haven't figure out how it could be part of a loop the way Phyrexian Reclamation can. Rings turns it into a discard version of Victimize, though.
Sadistic Hypnotist over the Myojin for sure, since it's way more on theme both flavor wise and mechanics wise. I'd replace the Mesmeric Fiend for it since it's low impact.
I didn't like Sangromancer. It does generate a lot of life in the right circumstances but I found it to be low impact overall. If it worked for your own creatures it would be a different story, obviously.
I love Warping Wail in my Daretti list, but here I think it forces you to run bad lands in order to support it. You want as many Swamps on board as possible to fuel your doublers, so the opportunity cost just isn't worth it in my opinion.
re: Infernal Tribute vs. Vampiric Rites: I think Rites is by far the better pick here, as the life gain is more relevant than having higher devotion and being able to sac Cabal Coffers to Tribute so you can recur it with Crucible of Worlds/Petrified Field for two activations. Tribute does have the better art, though.
I've had a Chainer deck since around 2007 and I cannot overstate the amazing effectiveness of Sadistic Hypnotist. That card can win games almost on its own.
Another great card that I enjoy is Memory Jar. Timing it right can be difficult, but it can serve the dual role of filling graveyards and drawing you cards.
Defense Grid is a useful card against countermagic since most of your instant-speed effects are coming from activated abilities of Chainer and your sac outlets.
I have not felt the need to run Tortured Existence in my list. I replaced it with Dark Deal and haven't looked back.
I also replaced mt Infernal Tribute with Vampiric Rites since I found I was more interested in sacrificing tokens over non-creatures. The lower CMC is nice, too.
You probably don't need Ice Cauldron (even though it's a hilarious card) and Gemstone Array. I might add in Expedition Map if you are worried about getting access to Urborg/Coffers/Nykthos.
Memory Jar and Dark Deal — Cool, a black wheel. I didn't know about that one. What I like with these two is that I could make people discard a fair amount without drawing as much ire as with Myojin. Makes stuff like Geth's Grimoire and Sangromancer seem more appealing.
Defense Grid — I think I had this among my considerations at some point. Or maybe it was Storage Matrix because I once had to operate under that and Chainer did fairly well just choosing lands each time (attack, sac, reanimate). Your point about where the majority of my instant speed is will probably have me re-examining Vedalken Orrery at some point, though I probably wouldn't have much trouble producing the mana to pay the extra 3 if necessary.
Smothering Abomination — While demons are close-enough to the theme for me if they're useful, I forgot about this guy. I must have traded my copy away or something. Definitely going in soon since he's even more on-theme, works with Fleshwrither (and Dimir House Guard if I ever run it again), and works with the increased presence of token generation (wasn't too long ago I had no token producers).
Ice Cauldron — Yeah, nobody needs it, I just want to make sure I get to use it a game or two for the hilarity before swapping it to another deck in an effort to find a decent home for it.
Gemstone Array — Definitely one of the weaker cards at the moment. It's one of several that are here to test. I figured it could serve double duty as a mana sink just before my turn if I didn't want to activate Chainer and as backup to Bog Initiate for Ashnod's Altar (losing Phyrexian Altar would eliminate some possible combos). I think mid-game and beyond I'm always doing something with Chainer, though. I also had Praetor's Grasp in mind as a "what if".
Expedition Map pretty much goes into consideration every time I do a rebuild of this deck. At the moment I'm also not terribly worried about burning Beseech the Queen for a key land if necessary, though I'm likely to get XHD first.
Sadistic Hypnotist has been on my mind as probably the first thing I wanted to get in the list. I've also been thinking about some of the other cards like Mesmeric Fiend that possibly just won't do enough, and that I probably should scale back literal theme a bit more for the sake of the deck's functionality. I can rationalize theme instead, since the grandiose wincon of stealing everything and leaving nothing left for my opponents is probably as nightmarish and horrific as it gets.
Sadistic Hypnotist over the Myojin for sure, since it's way more on theme both flavor wise and mechanics wise. I'd replace the Mesmeric Fiend for it since it's low impact.
I didn't like Sangromancer. It does generate a lot of life in the right circumstances but I found it to be low impact overall. If it worked for your own creatures it would be a different story, obviously.
I love Warping Wail in my Daretti list, but here I think it forces you to run bad lands in order to support it. You want as many Swamps on board as possible to fuel your doublers, so the opportunity cost just isn't worth it in my opinion.
Mesmeric Fiend -> Sadistic Hypnotist sounds like a pretty solid swap. As far as theme/flavor, some of it I rationalize. Fiend may actually be a Nightmare Horror, but it's more the art. I was rationalizing Sadistic Hypnotist as a murderous cultist or horror film villain or something, but he literally is just one of Chainer's team here. With Myojin, it was the art — very otherworldly/alien, hands and claws everywhere seems nightmarish enough.
I probably have both Infernal Tribute and Claws of Gix from when I used to run Spine of Ish Sah, but they serve another purpose aside from squeezing out an additional activation of Coffers/Nykthos with Crucible: getting rid of Necropotence if it becomes a liability or if I just want to activate it 20 times and not exile any of it.
Rites can definitely help my draw deeply a lot better than a Tribute can; I'd nearly forgotten it said "nontoken permanent".
I'm only running one doubler at the moment, but I want to ask you about that swamps comment. Which lands do you think are bad currently in the list? I have three guesses at the moment, but you might be thinking of more/others.
Which lands do you think are bad currently in the list? I have three guesses at the moment, but you might be thinking of more/others.
I don't think you have enough artifacts to reasonably support Inventors' Fair (it also sounds too pleasant and optimistic for the flavor of the deck) and Buried Ruins's target pool is pretty low, though I suppose it does get back your combo altars and is redundancy for Yawgmoth's Will for that. What do you usually name with Cavern of Souls? It seems like you don't have enough consistent targets to make it tap for black enough. Maybe it's useful for pushing through one or two important critters and then you're fine with it only producing colorless. I want to criticize Homeward Path but I do like the idea of reanimating something and giving it back to its owner... for a price, so I'll leave it be. I'm also skeptical of Crypt of Agadeem but with your creature density it probably works okay for you.
I did overestimate the number of doublers you run, though, so feel free to ignore all of the above. It looks like your loops are self-contained and don't require boatloads of mana so it seems less critical for you to go the typical big mana black route.
Otherwise I think your list looks like a lot of fun and I appreciate the balance of flavor/functionality. Also, +rep for the Dio reference.
I probably have both Infernal Tribute and Claws of Gix from when I used to run Spine of Ish Sah, but they serve another purpose aside from squeezing out an additional activation of Coffers/Nykthos with Crucible: getting rid of Necropotence if it becomes a liability or if I just want to activate it 20 times and not exile any of it.
A cool tech with Necropotence is that the exile is a trigger, not a replacement effect. What this means is that if you discard something you can put the exile on the stack then reanimate it with Chainer. Its oracle wording is similar to Planar Void rather than Rest in Peace.
Edit: I forgot Necro got reprinted with updated wording. I guess it's not as obscure a detail now.
Which lands do you think are bad currently in the list? I have three guesses at the moment, but you might be thinking of more/others.
I don't think you have enough artifacts to reasonably support Inventors' Fair (it also sounds too pleasant and optimistic for the flavor of the deck) and Buried Ruins's target pool is pretty low, though I suppose it does get back your combo altars and is redundancy for Yawgmoth's Will for that. What do you usually name with Cavern of Souls? It seems like you don't have enough consistent targets to make it tap for black enough. Maybe it's useful for pushing through one or two important critters and then you're fine with it only producing colorless. I want to criticize Homeward Path but I do like the idea of reanimating something and giving it back to its owner... for a price, so I'll leave it be. I'm also skeptical of Crypt of Agadeem but with your creature density it probably works okay for you.
Oh, yeah. I guess I didn't think of Coffers as a doubler.
Inventors' Fair is definitely not there for flavor, but is a testing slot for an artifact tutor. Buried Ruin is recovery for important artifacts and works will with Crucible, though I've considered putting Trading Post back in or using Myr Retriever. The idea with Cavern of Souls is to name Human since Chainer and some other important pieces are Human. Crypt of Agadeem is also being tested, though I can't remember how often I have 4+ black creatures in my graveyard. I like that it can tap for B anyway; I just don't like that it enters tapped. So I'm also skeptical of some of these, even Cavern, but I figured there's only one way to see if they serve well.
I did overestimate the number of doublers you run, though, so feel free to ignore all of the above. It looks like your loops are self-contained and don't require boatloads of mana so it seems less critical for you to go the typical big mana black route.
Otherwise I think your list looks like a lot of fun and I appreciate the balance of flavor/functionality. Also, +rep for the Dio reference.
Going to one doubler still feels risky because I had three in the list for so long, but I tend to be able to ramp like crazy and I think that helps. It's a trial to find the balance between mana and lifegain to support the desired balance of using non-loop wins most games and occasionally completing a loop. A couple loops could run off endless mana from Temple of Rings, but most of them rely on Phyrexian Altar or BogAltar.
I probably have both Infernal Tribute and Claws of Gix from when I used to run Spine of Ish Sah, but they serve another purpose aside from squeezing out an additional activation of Coffers/Nykthos with Crucible: getting rid of Necropotence if it becomes a liability or if I just want to activate it 20 times and not exile any of it.
A cool tech with Necropotence is that the exile is a trigger, not a replacement effect. What this means is that if you discard something you can put the exile on the stack then reanimate it with Chainer. Its oracle wording is similar to Planar Void rather than Rest in Peace.
Edit: I forgot Necro got reprinted with updated wording. I guess it's not as obscure a detail now.
The distinction can still be an issue, and I sometimes forget it's a trigger instead of a replacement effect. I have two copies of it and I prefer the old art to the new art, but the version I have with the old art is the Deckmasters Garfield vs Finkel foil, and has a text change using "instead". So it's exactly phrased as a replacement effect. Despite the art, I should consider switching it with the new art version in Daxos since the distinction is unimportant there. I have considered Planar Void in the past (in case of too-many-graveyard-decks-on-the-dance-floor) for just this reason, but Chainer seems to be enough (though Planar Void enables shenanigans with Mirror of Fate).
I think the only graveyard deck I had the most trouble with was a Balthor the Defiled deck that ran Morality Shift. Hence the Ravenous Trap since I started playing with that group again recently.
Most of these changes are a result of recent discussions in this thread with GloriousGoose and ProfessorWhen. Some cards leaving I still want to test, but the list was feeling way too heavy on testing slots.
Defense Grid is replacing Warping Wail as a more proactive counter deterrent. It could also prevent some EOT shenanigans, but won't hinder Chainer or my sac outlets.
With my relatively recent interest in token producers due to a Meren deck with Grave Pact effects, Vampiric Rites is going to do better work than Infernal Tribute, though I'm probably going to miss Tribute a little bit.
Inventors' Fair was pretty iffy as an artifact tutor since it requires three to activate. Crypt of Agadeem was in to test as a third possible ritual-land. Since it was also a testing slot these are both back to Swamps for now. Still might test the Crypt, but I need to observe how many creatures I typically have in my graveyard. I suspect I just get a lot of mileage out of the first 3-4 I get and nobody stays there very long. Also, the artifact creatures don't help and they're the regulars.
Credit where credit is due and all that. Decided to go ahead and do these changes today since I get to play tonight.
The formatting has been under development for a while now in the testing forum. Going to start finalizing Card Choices and other sections and bring them in.
Shred Memory is probably not what I want after some testing tonight, so I'll have to reconsider my graveyard removal option slot (which include 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7).
I had chosen Deathgreeter to replace Blood Artist because I didn't want to end up leeching the table while trying to combo with Gonti or Sepulchral Primordial instead. However, most of the combos involve a sacrifice outlet and I usually have one out anyway. This means I can just soften people up (particularly as a solution to lifegainers) from the Blood Artist triggers if I'm going for a different win condition, while helping enable a combat win condition and being a backup win condition itself. Falkenrath Noble could see a return to the fold since it's flying and is tutorable with Dimir House Guard and Fleshwrither.
Thought Gorger I tried a few times and it wasn't really doing what I wanted, but I did find myself wanting to tutor for one of the noncreature 4-drops, so Dimir House Guard is back.
Imp's Mischief probably won't be as useful with Defense Grid also here, as well as I spend the majority of the time reanimating rather than casting, so for the same reason I'm not too sad if a creature card ends up in the graveyard. Diabolic Intent usually has fodder here for the additional cost, as Demonic Tutor is in another deck (also, being ripped apart and eaten by Crovax is pretty "nightmarish"). Evidently I'm softening slightly on my tutor limitation.
Ice Cauldron is a hilarious effect and I finally got a chance to play with it, but there's nothing I really want to rattlesnake in this deck. Also, I don't want to explain how it works, apparently, so if I ever do try it in another deck, its usefulness better be worth all the explanation. In its place enters Dark Deal, which is more what I wanted out of Thought Gorger in the first place.
Finally, I'm going to test All is Dust instead of Ugin as a wipe that hits enchantments. I probably need better graveyard removal than Shred Memory anyway since that usually serves as a tutor,
but for the most part people are not going to recur their enchantments. Most often they'll be sacrificing creatures, too,
and I probably want them.
Game Recap —
I had a pretty interesting game last Sunday where I got to practice some new interactions, most of which are from additions originating with the thematic rebuild.
Had Thawing Glaciers in my opening hand with two swamps and drew Deserted Temple. Decided to drop the Glaciers turn one so I could activate it next turn.
Bloodghast and Phyrexian Altar did a super impression of Lotus Cobra with all this land fetching (including from a couple of fetchlands). After I cast Rings of Brighthearth, I spent a turn using all of these to go to town on ramping as many basics as I could until I had only three swamps still untapped for either activating Chainer or casting Withering Boon. It was, unfortunately, a long turn — I need to practice these kinds of interactions so I have a rote understanding of how much mana it takes for each cycle of interactions.
With Kaseto, Orochi Archmage and The Ur-Dragon chipping away at my life, Kagemaro, First to Suffer got a lot of use as a wipe, and X was never less than 7 thanks to Grim Haruspex and Bloodghast. The first time, I cast Kagemaro from hand. The second was a bit more desparate and I reanimated him with Chainer and activated him, killing Chainer, too. After this is the turn I ramped like mad, so I had no problem casting Chainer for 5BB.
Had an interesting round of combat where dragons resolved Thundermaw Hellkite while I had Abhorrent Overlord and six harpies. In response I sacked them for black mana and waited for him to do something else so I could respond. He cast Blade of Selves but didn't have enough mana to attach it, and I responded by reanimating the Overlord and getting my flyers back. He attacked me with Kaalia and dropped Mordant Dragon, I think. Blocked and killed them. Definitely a poor choice to attack me then.
The third time I used Kagemaro, however, I was at 12 life and the dragons player had resolved Kokusho on the previous turn. I sacked my Abhorrent Overlord and harpies for mana (I had plenty, but I wanted to stretch it just in case and I needed another reanimation target aside from Kagemaro). I activated Chainer targeting Kagemaro and let that resolve — 9 life. I activate Chainer targeting the Overlord — 6 life. Rings triggers and I respond to it by activating Kagemaro. To this, finally, I respond by sacrificing Chainer, Bloodghast, and Haruspex to raise my cards in hand to 8 and let Chainer go to the graveyard.
Kagemaro's ability resolves, doing -8/-8. Kokusho dies and triggers, which resolves and knocks me down to 1 life. I pay 2 to the Rings trigger to copy Chainer's ability and target Chainer. That resolves and he's back as a nightmare. His original ability resolves and brings back Overlord. I cast the Claws of Gix in my hand, sacking 3 harpies to bring my life up to 4 so I can activate Chainer once and reanimate Kokusho. From there I looped him with Chainer, Phyrexian Altar, and Overlord for the win.
To be candid, I thought I had completely goofed on the math and couldn't activate Chainer again (and had helped kill myself) when I hit 1 life the first time because I had set my hand down before lining up activations. I had been ignoring the Claws of Gix in my hand up until then. It got me out of a corner that I'd put myself in because I wanted to try the Chainer-flickers-himself trick to get around Kagemaro, but I probably could have just cast him for 7BB easily and had enough to reanimate Kokusho.
I also had Wurmcoil Engine in my graveyard, Head Games and Memory Jar in my hand. So I probably could have stabilized my life and duked it out in combat with the dragons using Abhorrent Overlord and harpies to block and then use Jar and Games to tutor 7 of his best remaining dragons out of his deck and make him dump them. That Scourge of Valkas would have been pick #1!
After reflecting for a while —
Starting to think I need a bit more lifegain and artifact recursion, so I'm considering removing Vedalken Orrery for Trading Post or Myr Retriever and possibly switching Shred Memory to Suffer the Past or Crypt Incursion. The only problem I see with Crypt Incursion is not hitting the artifacts that certain red decks enjoy recycling. I'll wait until after more games to decide that. I might have enough lifegain and just didn't find it.
My thoughts on tutors are definitely changing a bit. I'm okay with the power level of this deck creeping upward since it's my favorite, but what I was actually concerned about in regard to limiting my tutors was always winning the same way or finding combo pieces too easily/quickly. So goal is flexibility and some inconsistency in what win conditions get used.
I've done pretty well without Caged Sun/Nirkana Revenant so far, and that's without putting Crypt Ghast on the battlefield yet, either. So while the ramping-instead-of-boosters experiment is successful so far (they get blown up way less often), the swamp boosters are probably more powerful as ramp, mathematically. I like Bubbling Muck as a ritual, even though Nirkana Revenant should only ever cost BBB+3 life. But I found myself also wondering if Extraplanar Lens's proper place is as a booster that supplements a primarily land ramp approach. Cheapish enough to serve as a ritual if it gets immediately blown up, but way better than a ritual if it sticks. The ramp also seems to extend its range of usefulness further into the mid-game from the late-game. One of these days I'll test it. If Phyrexian Altar keeps sticking, Lens probably will, too.
Hey comrade, I like the list! I'm building a more casual version of Chainer for my casual friends, and I took a lot of inspiration from your thread here. Good stuff.
A card that you could consider in the spot of Fallen Ideal is Mind Slash. While it loses some utility due to its sorcery speed restriction, I think the ability to strip answers from opponents' hands and/or the best creature for Chainer to reanimate is really important. Also, is there a reason that Black Market is excluded? I think that with as many sac outlets as you have that it would be working overtime in mana production.
Hey comrade, I like the list! I'm building a more casual version of Chainer for my casual friends, and I took a lot of inspiration from your thread here. Good stuff.
A card that you could consider in the spot of Fallen Ideal is Mind Slash. While it loses some utility due to its sorcery speed restriction, I think the ability to strip answers from opponents' hands and/or the best creature for Chainer to reanimate is really important.
I like that one and will probably try it once I get a copy, though the sorcery speed thing hurts. I do keep forgetting about it, so thanks for reminding me. Added to my wishlist!
Also, is there a reason that Black Market is excluded? I think that with as many sac outlets as you have that it would be working overtime in mana production.
It could indeed produce a lot of mana and accumulate many counters. It just doesn't quite match up with my play style with Chainer because I most often activat him on other people's turns for combat tricks or pseudo-haste. Most of my opponents are trying to play their decks and deal with the battlefield and tend to lose awareness of the potential of any creature in any graveyard coming to the battlefield at a moment's notice. I think that's Chainer's main advantage. For that reason I've preferred land-ramp, a recurrable land booster or two, and I have loops that are at least self-sustaining on mana and life if they're not producing endless supplies of it (Phyrexian Altar is a ridiculous card).
Once I've honed this approach to Chainer more I might test Black Market (almost certainly in Vedalken Orrery's slot) just to see how it affects how I play the deck, but so far I've had plenty of mana and wanted more life. I feel like Nirkana Revenant would be more likely to keep a slot than Market, though.
Note to self: make a Notable Exclusions section in the Card Choices section.
Reserved, because everybody reserves the second post for some reason.
The reason for this is so that if you do decide to convert this thread to a Primer, you already have a second post set aside so that you can fluidly extend the OP Primer post into two posts if you want. Just as an FYI. For my Memnarch Primer, I didn't reserve the second post and had to delete someone else's comment so that I could have the second post for my Primer.
Also, I think it might be worthwhile to draft up a competitive list for those who are interested in it. It doesn't have to be the focus of your Primer per se, but I think it would be a good addition to help add depth to your thread. A sample competitive Stax list might look something like this:
The competitive list goes fully onboard with resource denial, tax effects, and forced sacrifice effects, creating a truly oppressive and comprehensive Stax package. Definitely not for casual playgroups, I think that this is a good starting point to consider.
You might also decide not to include it at all. No worries!
Yeah, I forgot about Nirkana Revenant. Such a cool card. It should definitely find a spot somehow in my casual list since it's really good.
The reason for this is so that if you do decide to convert this thread to a Primer, you already have a second post set aside so that you can fluidly extend the OP Primer post into two posts if you want. Just as an FYI. For my Memnarch Primer, I didn't reserve the second post and had to delete someone else's comment so that I could have the second post for my Primer.
Ah, okay. Hopefully the way I'm organizing it will work well enough I won't need it, but at least it's there. I was thinking there is (or used to be) a length limit on posts that primers would hit and then need the second post for overflow.
We'll see if I go for actual Primer status, but I really like this deck and wanted to take a shot at putting together that much structured information about it.
Also, I think it might be worthwhile to draft up a competitive list for those who are interested in it. It doesn't have to be the focus of your Primer per se, but I think it would be a good addition to help add depth to your thread. A sample competitive Stax list might look something like this:
The competitive list goes fully onboard with resource denial, tax effects, and forced sacrifice effects, creating a truly oppressive and comprehensive Stax package. Definitely not for casual playgroups, I think that this is a good starting point to consider.
You might also decide not to include it at all. No worries!
I do know some other primer writers like DementedKirby who give alternate decklists, so that's a possibility I'll consider down the road. I'd probably consider adding a section for a more budget-friendly list before a competitive list. I just don't have fun with stax that keeps other players from playing the game at all. I'm okay with speedbumps and bottlenecks. For example, Chainer can play around Storage Matrix fairly well. I'm also okay with Contamination if it comes down just before a loop to protect that or fish for countermagic, but sticking it on turn 3 to jam up the rest of the table for turn after turn isn't my thing.
I really don't like destroying people's lands, especially — except for spot removal of ridiculous lands. I consider Phyrexian Obliterator a testing spot for this reason because it could be used as a sometimes unblockable 5/5, but instant speed reanimation could abuse it to utterly destroy somebody's board state in the face of a Blasphemous Act or as a surprise blocker.
By the way, where did this competitive example come from?
Yeah, I forgot about Nirkana Revenant. Such a cool card. It should definitely find a spot somehow in my casual list since it's really good.
It is pretty good. I just wish it had flying or something. I once pumped it up to 19/19 and attacked to provoke a chump block to get rid of their creature. Then I resolved Disciple of Bolas and sacked it to that. Fun times.
The competitve list is something I kinda brewed off the top of my head. It was influenced in part by FireStorm's Meren Stax list (found here) and my own thought experiment. It's tough because the Stax list has both ETB abilities AND important activated abilities, otherwise I'd love to squeeze in Cursed Totem and Torpor Orb somehow.
Yeah, it'd be nice to lean more heavily one way or the other for those pieces. If I were to go that rout, I'd probably run Torpor Orb and lean toward activated abilities since a large portion of the list already is activated abilities and/or death triggers. Orb would only affect these cards:
Abhorrent Overlord is still a 6/6 flyer, which is pretty good with all ETB shut off.
@benjameenbear: Bone Shredder might be an option over Shriekmaw. Phage strikes me as an odd choice since you don't have XHD or Phyrexian Reclamation to get it back from the graveyard and can't reanimate it.
I like that you're sticking primarily to card draw. If life becomes an issue, Basilisk Collar could be useful with all the big guns you have. Also works well on Pestilence Demon.
Looks good, though.
Now on my Bucket List with Chainer is: reanimate someone else's Kothophed, force it back to them with Homeward Path or Faceless Butcher, then do a sacrifice loop to kill them. Just have to make sure they don't have a sacrifice outlet of their own.
@benjameenbear: Bone Shredder might be an option over Shriekmaw. Phage strikes me as an odd choice since you don't have XHD or Phyrexian Reclamation to get it back from the graveyard and can't reanimate it.
I like that you're sticking primarily to card draw. If life becomes an issue, Basilisk Collar could be useful with all the big guns you have. Also works well on Pestilence Demon.
Looks good, though.
Now on my Bucket List with Chainer is: reanimate someone else's Kothophed, force it back to them with Homeward Path or Faceless Butcher, then do a sacrifice loop to kill them. Just have to make sure they don't have a sacrifice outlet of their own.
Phage the Untouchable is in there simply for nostalgia purposes. She was one of the very first rares I ever bought and I loved the fact that she was also one of the first cards that literally had written on it "You win if you attack with this creature." There's a heavy density of removal and forced discard in my list, as the idea is to create a favorable board state for my creatures to connect for combat damage. It's why I included all the forced sac effect creatures possible (Fleshbag Marauder, Slum Reaper, and Merciless Executioner). I want none of my opponents to have blockers or answers to Phage so that she can insta-kill people. And if she dies, that's totally fine. She's in here for nostalgia and for "WTF, you're playing her?" value.
Loxodon Warhammer gives my creatures the lifelink aspect I'm looking for. Basilisk Collar is good tech, but I don't want to consistently wipe my whole field as well. Usually, 3 activations of Pestilence Demon is enough to clear the field, which is acceptable. The Warhammer is also $0.39, and it gives a combat damage boost while also turning many of my creatures into 4-turn clocks. It's been decent in application and I think it's fine.
I've found myself, as an EDH player, coming into a weird paradigm: I need to have 2-3 highly competitive decks actually built (Memnarch, Teferi, and Edric decks for me) and then a grip of casual decks to play with as well (Nicol Bolas, Chainer, Yisan in my gauntlet). I play different skill levels and I find that I increase the overall volume of games if I use the right decks in the right playgroup and skill level. I'd hate to curb-stomp the whole table on T4 with my Teferi Stax deck and piss everyone off, minimizing the number of games I actually play. I'm more interested in the game and social interactions it provides, and different level of deck intensities help to deliver an enjoyable game for everyone that maximizes the number of games I get. For this reason, I've tried to minimize the tutors in the deck. It gives variance to each game, doesn't feel as streamlined and efficient from my opponents' perspective, and helps to give an enjoyable experience for all involved. But the moment I feel like I want to win, I can happily pull out one of my 3 cEDH decks and feel confident that I will win and soothe my ego, haha.
As a general update, I had an interesting game with Chainer this weekend against Mizzix and Kaseto. It was interesting because I cast Chainer once and activated him maybe twice (at the same time). The rest of the time I just cast stuff, and didn't even have strong card draw aside from a few well-placed Skullclamp attachments, as Necropotence ate countermagic and Phyrexian Arena came down later. But I could cast stuff a lot because of a bit of ramp and having Crypt Ghast from early on.
Gonti nabbed me some countermagic that I used to stop Mizzix's Caged Sun. Later I reanimated him and took Firemind's Foresight (which would have been pretty useful had I cast it).
Praetor's Grasp, however, I aimed at Kaseto. I thought about taking their Phyrexian Metamorph, but there weren't many useful things to copy. Instead I took their Orochi Hatchery. Mizzix attempted somewhat of a one-sided wipe with Comet Storm, killing whatever I had. Kaseto played Skullwinder and I got the Ghast back because they didn't want Mizzix to have the Comet Storm back. I used Kagemaro to wipe, followed by recasting Crypt Ghast and Whip of Erebos, and passed the turn.
Mizzix tapped out to overload Mizzix's Mastery, which ended up only getting them 6 cards by copying Mystic Confluence with Howl of the Horde, because everything else was x. Kaseto pumped up as much as they could and hit me for a decent chunk but didn't kill me. At this point I poured 24 mana into casting the Hatchery and it resolved with 12 counters. After the Ghast's extort trigger, which saved my bacon over the course of the game, I had 5 mana left to activate it, so I did.
Mizzix recasts their commander (I think they were trying to set up for something and needed the discount). Can't remember what Kaseto did, but they tapped out. So I activate the Hatchery again and start drawing a ton of cards with Skullclamp. Down comes Massacre Wurm to take out both of their commanders again. Down comes Blood Artist, and Fallen Ideal attached to the Wurm. I attack Mizzix with the first set of snakes to gain some life and bring them down to 7, then I kill 7 snakes to finish him off with Blood Artist's triggers. Kaseto couldn't really touch my life total now, and got machine-gunned with snakes.
After reflecting on this game, I came to a few decision regarding my next batch of changes.
Blood Artist has to be switched back to Deathgreeter. Artist simply can't supply life for Chainer loops without killing opponents, because I can't loop Gonti or Sepulchral Primordial enough times for an Ultimate Finish without razing my opponents in the process unless one of them has gained 200-300 life.
Phyrexian Obliterator is unnecessary as a beater, and too mean as a trick to put in the way of damage.
Vedalken Orrery, while a nice idea, didn't even cross my mind even though I spent most of the game casting on my turn instead of using Chainer. At no point did I wish it was on the battlefield, so I can probably make that something more useful.
Sepulchral Primordial might also be unnecessary. It sat in my hand this game (and a couple previous games) because there just weren't decent targets worth stealing, and thus better things to do with the mana.
I'm also still doing well on mana with the moderate amount of ramp I did. I only did Thawing Glaciers twice in one turn with Deserted Temple and activated Burnished Hart once and otherwise hit all my drops, though dropping Urborg early was quite helpful. I feel like I had plenty of mana even without Crypt Ghast, but with Ghast I often had lands still untapped at the beginning of my turn. So I'll be considering a mana sink of some sort — either something to trickle it into to mess with combat or gain life, or something I can blast the remaining into mana into. I have considered Deathgrip for amusement. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief could help in multiple ways, as the power buff does well with lifelink, Disciple of Bolas, and Altar of Dementia.
As for other replacements, I'm considering adding an additional wipe in the form of Life's Finale, Nevinyrral's Disk, or Mutilate. A source of lifegain might be useful because that still seems to be a highly limiting factor, and possibly artifact recursion. For this the good ol' Trading Post toolbox is under consideration, but so is Loxodon Warhammer or Basilisk Collar to encourage me to use combat more.
Loxodon Warhammer gives my creatures the lifelink aspect I'm looking for. Basilisk Collar is good tech, but I don't want to consistently wipe my whole field as well. Usually, 3 activations of Pestilence Demon is enough to clear the field, which is acceptable. The Warhammer is also $0.39, and it gives a combat damage boost while also turning many of my creatures into 4-turn clocks. It's been decent in application and I think it's fine.
Yup, I missed the hammer in your list when I was rereading before my reply.
I've found myself, as an EDH player, coming into a weird paradigm: I need to have 2-3 highly competitive decks actually built (Memnarch, Teferi, and Edric decks for me) and then a grip of casual decks to play with as well (Nicol Bolas, Chainer, Yisan in my gauntlet). I play different skill levels and I find that I increase the overall volume of games if I use the right decks in the right playgroup and skill level. I'd hate to curb-stomp the whole table on T4 with my Teferi Stax deck and piss everyone off, minimizing the number of games I actually play. I'm more interested in the game and social interactions it provides, and different level of deck intensities help to deliver an enjoyable game for everyone that maximizes the number of games I get. For this reason, I've tried to minimize the tutors in the deck. It gives variance to each game, doesn't feel as streamlined and efficient from my opponents' perspective, and helps to give an enjoyable experience for all involved. But the moment I feel like I want to win, I can happily pull out one of my 3 cEDH decks and feel confident that I will win and soothe my ego, haha.
This is more-or-less the space I'm in, too. I like limited and constrained tutors so far in Chainer, but it's one of my big guns.
It looks like Sidisispiders might be my other big gun. Zedruu is probably the best balanced with my most frequent playgroup at the moment (it has almost won a couple times now). That's the fun shenanigans "make the game state interesting" sort of space I'd like the Marchesa grixis clones I'm working on to be in, as well.
As a general update, I had an interesting game with Chainer this weekend against Mizzix and Kaseto. It was interesting because I cast Chainer once and activated him maybe twice (at the same time). The rest of the time I just cast stuff, and didn't even have strong card draw aside from a few well-placed Skullclamp attachments, as Necropotence ate countermagic and Phyrexian Arena came down later. But I could cast stuff a lot because of a bit of ramp and having Crypt Ghast from early on.
Gonti nabbed me some countermagic that I used to stop Mizzix's Caged Sun. Later I reanimated him and took Firemind's Foresight (which would have been pretty useful had I cast it).
Praetor's Grasp, however, I aimed at Kaseto. I thought about taking their Phyrexian Metamorph, but there weren't many useful things to copy. Instead I took their Orochi Hatchery. Mizzix attempted somewhat of a one-sided wipe with Comet Storm, killing whatever I had. Kaseto played Skullwinder and I got the Ghast back because they didn't want Mizzix to have the Comet Storm back. I used Kagemaro to wipe, followed by recasting Crypt Ghast and Whip of Erebos, and passed the turn.
Mizzix tapped out to overload Mizzix's Mastery, which ended up only getting them 6 cards by copying Mystic Confluence with Howl of the Horde, because everything else was x. Kaseto pumped up as much as they could and hit me for a decent chunk but didn't kill me. At this point I poured 24 mana into casting the Hatchery and it resolved with 12 counters. After the Ghast's extort trigger, which saved my bacon over the course of the game, I had 5 mana left to activate it, so I did.
Mizzix recasts their commander (I think they were trying to set up for something and needed the discount). Can't remember what Kaseto did, but they tapped out. So I activate the Hatchery again and start drawing a ton of cards with Skullclamp. Down comes Massacre Wurm to take out both of their commanders again. Down comes Blood Artist, and Fallen Ideal attached to the Wurm. I attack Mizzix with the first set of snakes to gain some life and bring them down to 7, then I kill 7 snakes to finish him off with Blood Artist's triggers. Kaseto couldn't really touch my life total now, and got machine-gunned with snakes.
After reflecting on this game, I came to a few decision regarding my next batch of changes.
Blood Artist has to be switched back to Deathgreeter. Artist simply can't supply life for Chainer loops without killing opponents, because I can't loop Gonti or Sepulchral Primordial enough times for an Ultimate Finish without razing my opponents in the process unless one of them has gained 200-300 life.
Phyrexian Obliterator is unnecessary as a beater, and too mean as a trick to put in the way of damage.
Vedalken Orrery, while a nice idea, didn't even cross my mind even though I spent most of the game casting on my turn instead of using Chainer. At no point did I wish it was on the battlefield, so I can probably make that something more useful.
Sepulchral Primordial might also be unnecessary. It sat in my hand this game (and a couple previous games) because there just weren't decent targets worth stealing, and thus better things to do with the mana.
I'm also still doing well on mana with the moderate amount of ramp I did. I only did Thawing Glaciers twice in one turn with Deserted Temple and activated Burnished Hart once and otherwise hit all my drops, though dropping Urborg early was quite helpful. I feel like I had plenty of mana even without Crypt Ghast, but with Ghast I often had lands still untapped at the beginning of my turn. So I'll be considering a mana sink of some sort — either something to trickle it into to mess with combat or gain life, or something I can blast the remaining into mana into. I have considered Deathgrip for amusement. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief could help in multiple ways, as the power buff does well with lifelink, Disciple of Bolas, and Altar of Dementia.
As for other replacements, I'm considering adding an additional wipe in the form of Life's Finale, Nevinyrral's Disk, or Mutilate. A source of lifegain might be useful because that still seems to be a highly limiting factor, and possibly artifact recursion. For this the good ol' Trading Post toolbox is under consideration, but so is Loxodon Warhammer or Basilisk Collar to encourage me to use combat more.
Great game report! It sounds like an enjoyable game, all things considered. I think that Blood Artist helped you definitively close the door on the game that you were already going to win. From what I gather, you had a pretty insurmountable mana and Reanimator advantage over your opponents; why bother giving them a couple of turns just to inevitably die? It sounds like the Artist helped close the game out so that you could potentially shuffle up for another game. That's one of the reasons I like infinite or semi-infinite combos to be present in my deck somehow; it helps accelerate a game so that I can get more games in within a play session. Food for thought.
I chose to run Life's Finale because the decks that I would be playing against with Chainer have some sweet Reanimator targets. Being able to grab them proactively out of their deck while resetting the field, setting up a great play sequence on my next turn, is very ideal to me. Chainer would be going up against a Bladewing the Risen Dragon Reanimator deck, a Kaalia of the Vast deck (my wife's), and a couple other goodstuff decks. The Finale sets me up to take advantage of their decks. And of course, the Disk helps to get rid of problematic Enchantments and Artifacts. Why not run both in place of some of the cards you want to cut?
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief is a great, repeatable removal and combat damage mana sink. I'm quite fond of her in mono-Black decks.
If you're contemplating a 7-drop spot... would Void Winnower be too mean against your playgroup? I like that it helps to force combat damage through and helps to disrupt my opponents in their removal choice. Plus, it's got lots of spaghetti arms and honestly looks like something that Chainer would summon from Dementia space. The Eldrazi are weird and nightmarish creatures, so I felt it appropriate to run the two better ones. Reanimating Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger still feels really good even if I miss the cast trigger.
If the Eldrazi aren't useful to you or would be overpowered, I recommend Pestilence Demon. It's a solid beater, helps keep the board under control from stupid weenie swarms, kills most random hate-bears that would disrupt a Reanimator strategy, and has cool flavor text. Do note I am a removal-heavy deckbuilder, so I come from the bias that adding more removal is always better.
Great game report! It sounds like an enjoyable game, all things considered. I think that Blood Artist helped you definitively close the door on the game that you were already going to win. From what I gather, you had a pretty insurmountable mana and Reanimator advantage over your opponents; why bother giving them a couple of turns just to inevitably die? It sounds like the Artist helped close the game out so that you could potentially shuffle up for another game. That's one of the reasons I like infinite or semi-infinite combos to be present in my deck somehow; it helps accelerate a game so that I can get more games in within a play session. Food for thought.
I chose to run Life's Finale because the decks that I would be playing against with Chainer have some sweet Reanimator targets. Being able to grab them proactively out of their deck while resetting the field, setting up a great play sequence on my next turn, is very ideal to me. Chainer would be going up against a Bladewing the Risen Dragon Reanimator deck, a Kaalia of the Vast deck (my wife's), and a couple other goodstuff decks. The Finale sets me up to take advantage of their decks. And of course, the Disk helps to get rid of problematic Enchantments and Artifacts. Why not run both in place of some of the cards you want to cut?
Yeah, that's why I have loops, too. It's just that Blood Artist hijacks the win from other stuff I'd like to loop for the win (like milling). Not as many creature-heavy decks in my main group. There's usually utility or synergy/loop pieces to dump into the graveyard and make them harder to reach. Dumping Guttersnipe and Talrand from Mizzix's deck is a fine play, and I can use those with Corpse Dance. Part of what I like about this deck is using opponent's cards against them for win conditions, such as the game where I looped a Kokusho that The Ur-Dragon brought out, even though I don't have such a piece in my deck. I've wondered about the possibility of taking some of the combo pieces out of my deck to make it a little harder to do my own loops, instead requiring opponent's cards a little more for completing the loops.
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief is a great, repeatable removal and combat damage mana sink. I'm quite fond of her in mono-Black decks.
If you're contemplating a 7-drop spot... would Void Winnower be too mean against your playgroup? I like that it helps to force combat damage through and helps to disrupt my opponents in their removal choice. Plus, it's got lots of spaghetti arms and honestly looks like something that Chainer would summon from Dementia space. The Eldrazi are weird and nightmarish creatures, so I felt it appropriate to run the two better ones. Reanimating Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger still feels really good even if I miss the cast trigger.
If the Eldrazi aren't useful to you or would be overpowered, I recommend Pestilence Demon. It's a solid beater, helps keep the board under control from stupid weenie swarms, kills most random hate-bears that would disrupt a Reanimator strategy, and has cool flavor text. Do note I am a removal-heavy deckbuilder, so I come from the bias that adding more removal is always better.
I don't think Void Winnower would be too bad, as long as one guy in my group finally agrees that zero is even. I was about to find a slot for Winnower at the top of the Birthing Pod curve in my Ruric Thar deck. Eldrazi are definitely on-theme and I'm running a couple right now (the theme does manifest in a number ways, though, not just ugly creatures). Newlamog might be a bit much, as far as power level, but we'll see how that develops and if games with another higher-powered group become more frequent. Pestilence Demon, on the other hand, sounds like a pretty good toolbox to do fun stuff with lifelink and things dying.
Introduction – Decklist – Changelog – Card Choices – Acknowledgments
Since the original list, it's has changed numerous times, of course. The biggest changes involved two aspects: 1. removing wincons I found boring; 2. trying out cards I thought might be interesting.
I think the first wincon I removed revolved around Gray Merchant of Asphodel. I first replaced Living Death to try to nerf it, because it was just too easy to loop that with plenty of mana and XHD. Same thing with just directly looping Gary with Chainer (especially with two doublers out). So eventually Gary got the axe entirely. Exsanguinate was soon to follow because even if I didn't tutor for it, if I had it in hand and enough mana it became, "And now the game's over." That occurred too often for my tastes; I was leaning on it and wanted more challenging win conditions.
On the matter of interesting cards to try, I like Head Games. I like how that works with full-hand discard like Mindslicer or Myojin of Night's Reach. I like how Homeward Path and Faceless Butcher allow me to play politics by reanimating and returning a creature. I like how Ice Cauldron can rattlesnake an answer in an almost-untouchable place — it's a hilarious card I want to find/make a good home for. I like how Mirage Mirror can enable the doubling of a lot of shenanigans for 2.
So here are my thoughts on the direction I'm trying to go:
Weaponizes madness and stuff.
This dude's cool, too.
1 Chainer, Dementia Master
Creature (31)
1 Deathgreeter
1 Bloodghast
1 Disciple of Griselbrand
1 Myr Retriever
1 Dross Harvester
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Agent of Erebos
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Pitiless Plunderer
1 Sifter of Skulls
1 Slum Reaper
1 Smothering Abomination
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Doom Whisperer
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Noxious Gearhulk
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Entomb
1 Withering Boon
1 Corpse Dance
1 Sudden Spoiling
Sorcery (5)
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mutilate
1 Head Games
Artifact (15)
1 Skullclamp
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Mesmeric Orb
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mirage Mirror
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Unstable Obelisk
1 Aetherworks Marvel
1 Helm of Possession
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Memory Jar
Enchantment (7)
1 Font of Agonies
1 Vampiric Rites
1 Infernal Tribute
1 Mind Slash
1 Necropotence
1 Oppression
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
Land (36)
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Deserted Temple
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Marsh Flats
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Petrified Field
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Polluted Delta
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
19 Swamp
Final Parting
Increasing Ambition
Razaketh, the Foulblooded
Torgaar, Famine Incarnate
Sepulchral Primordial
No Mercy
Fallen Ideal
Dark Deal
Mindslicer
—
Burnished Hart
Darkness
Claws of Gix
Viscera Seer
Ambition's Cost
Nirkana Revenant
Defense Grid
Nevinyrral's Disk
Cavern of Souls
Homeward Path
Swamp
—
Liliana of the Dark Realms
Abhorrent Overlord
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Aetherworks Marvel / Vedalken Orrery
Mind Slash
Oppression
Myojin of Night's Reach
Plaguecrafter
Wayfarer's Bauble
Myr Retriever
Dross Harvester
Vampiric Rites
Infernal Tribute
Pitiless Plunderer
Pawn of Ulamog
Agent of Erebos
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Crypt of Agadeem
Vesuva
I'm trying to refocus on variance in games by taking out some tutors for card draw. I'm actually fine with Demonic Tutor staying but it's needed in another deck where it's easier to cast there than Beseech the Queen is here. Final Parting would have been kindof like a black pseudo-Intuition so I can't say it'll never see play in the deck again. I considered Corpse Connoisseur — we'll see if I end up wanting that or Vampiric Tutor for those moments I need to save my hide. Also trying Liliana of the Dark Realms in place of one of the other tutors since tutoring for swamps is harmless. I have a feeling she'll be pretty redundant to the actual ramp and fetches but that emblem is on my bucket list. I also need to test how well ramping goes without Solemn Simulacrum at some point.
Razzy I know would have been amazing as a giant beater, tutor, and sac outlet, but that tutor part is where he's getting benched for now. Torgaar was supposed to be a toolbox piece for bringing somebody's life down from too high or keeping mine afloat — but maybe if I was planning to need the manual override then my other life support wasn't doing too good. Sepulchral Primordial was basically redundancy with Chainer, and to magnify the effect of his ability. In their place, please welcome returning guest Abhorrent "Tokens for Days" Overlord and two brand new guests: Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief and Sheoldred, Whispering One.
I read an interesting opinion recently that Vedalken Orrery can also be a useful deterrent to attacks and we're going to test that in place of No Mercy. Enough tokens will be dying that I imagine Aetherworks Marvel would also be good and can do neat tricks with Volrath's Stronghold/Scroll Rack/Vampiric Tutor/Library of Leng, so this is actually a flex slot to switch between Aetherworks and Orrery.
Fallen Ideal is a die-hard sacrifice outlet but has no real benefit from the sacrifice, so now we're going to see what it's like to perform surgery on our opponents' hands with Mind Slash. Along the same lines of discard effects we're bringing in Oppression and Myojin of Night's Reach for Dark Deal and Mindslicer (not that 'Slicer isn't good — we're just going to try something different). Plaguecrafter buttons this up as teammate for Slum Reaper that can get a planeswalker or as a Liliana's Specter if our opponents don't have creatures (Specter was on the list for consideration, but I still want to lean more on removal than discard). I considered adding Bloodgift Demon in place of Doom Whisperer, but that Surveil 2 still needs testing.
Burnished Hart is out for Wayfarer's Bauble and Myr Retriever, but since that's two cards I figure Sudden Spoiling might be enough fog for this deck and cut Darkness.
While Claws of Gix has saved my bacon a time or two, I think Dross Harvester shows some promise for keeping my bacon out of the fire in the first place. Viscera Seer was very often underused by me because, while I wasn't a fan of the timing of the Scry 1 vs draw triggers, I was just always using other outlets. Perhaps the card draw of Vampiric Rites will prove more useful. In place of Ambition's Cost I'm adding the somewhat-similar Infernal Tribute, returning as my sacrifice-a-liability tool. The extra token production may change my mind about Seer someday regarding having card draw vs having scry combined with other card draw, so it's sortof a flex spot between the two, but as a sacrifice outlet it could also become Attrition if I figure I have enough card draw but want more removal.
Finally on the mana/tokens front we'll be trying Pitiless Plunderer instead of Nirkana Revenant and Pawn of Ulamog as back up for Sifter of Skulls, replacing Defense Grid. I may end up liking Smothering Abomination even more.
Somehow I didn't have any graveyard answers other than Chainer himself. I want something not too difficult to recur since an answer might be needed at instant speed. Withered Wretch can be mana intensive but is quite surgical and I've used him before, so we're going to try Agent of Erebos as a wholesale graveyard exile that can be re-used if I happen to get another enchantment on the field after him. Part of the reason for going for the wholesale exile approach is some recent experiences with enchantments and Bruna. Better to just nuke that whole 'yard.
Cavern of Souls and Homeward Path are out for a third B booster land, Crypt of Agadeem, and a discard enabler in the form of Geier Reach Sanitarium. And I figured Vesuva is better here than in another deck where it would only have copied some colors or fetches, so I replaced a Swamp.
Void Winnower
Massacre Wurm
Massacre Wurm is too good to stay out for token control. Void Winnower would keep opponents from blocking with tokens, but not prevent a retaliatory attack. Also I figure the cast-prevention would put a target on me. I was initially worried about outright killing a player with Massacre Wurm, but if they have enough tokens for that to happen then they were getting ready to win anyway and there's a decent chance their stuff was not worth stealing to use against the other players. Or I just sac the Wurm before the -2/-2 trigger resolves and they don't die.
Ashnod's Altar
Bog Initiate
Shred Memory
Diabolic Intent
Dimir House Guard
Fleshwrither
Beseech the Queen
Damnation
All Is Dust
Expedition Map
Wayfarer's Bauble
Bloodgift Demon
Phyrexian Obliterator
Massacre Wurm
Abhorrent Overlord
Vedalken Orrery
Vampiric Rites
Helm of Possession
Mesmeric Orb
Darkness
Demonic Tutor
Final Parting
Increasing Ambition
Razaketh, the Foulblooded
Nevinyrral's Disk
Mutilate
Nirkana Revenant
Sword of the Animist
Demonlord Belzenlok
Void Winnower
Torgaar, Famine Incarnate
Doom Whisperer
Ambition's Cost
Font of Agonies
Ashnod's Altar and Bog Initiate were supposed to be a backup to Phyrexian Altar. Once I get a copy of Pitiless Plunderer, that plus any free sac outlet will serve the same redundancy better. So now I've got Helm of Possession and Mesmeric Orb (testing).
My weak tutors were just that, so I'm going back to good ones. Diabolic Intent may still be a good one to try but may also be a dead card at times. In place of Shred Memory comes Darkness, because surprising folks with a black Fog is still on my bucket list. Then Dimir House Guard, Fleshwrither, and Beseech the Queen are all being replaced by the classic Demonic Tutor, the deck-thematic Increasing Ambition, the badass Razaketh, and Final Parting because I want to try this option over stuff like Buried Alive.
Wipes — I had more wipes in the draw version — don't need that many for my group. Damnation is great, but I want to be able to hit other stuff with Nevinyrral's Disk (plus I used the older, more eldritch-horror art). All is Dust doesn't hit artifacts for the most part, and short Toxic Deluge I wanted another -X/-X solution so Mutilate is in for testing (also older, nightmare/Chainer themed art).
Land stuff — Expedition Map and Wayfarer's Bauble out for Nirkana Revenant and Sword of Rampant Growth to lean into the basic land mana production a little more. Can't wait to put the sword on Mindslicer or XHD.
Beatsticks — Arena-on-a-stick out to test Belzenlok's card accessing. Phyrexian Obliterator out for a different beatstick in the shape of Void Winnower now that devotion doesn't matter except for Nykthos. I removed Massacre Wurm because it can be a "surprise, you lose!" card if somebody has enough tokens, and I want to avoid having that kind option immediately available. It's why Exsanguinate isn't here. Torgaar replaces it so I can fiddle around with life totals to knock lifegain decks down or keep myself alive (20 life is quite comfortable, really). Abhorrent Overlord may someday see play again, but it forms a rather easy loop with just Chainer and Phyrexian Altar, so let's see if I can steal somebody else's ETB token producer for loops and see how Doom Whisperer fares.
Vedalken Orrery is also one of those cards I would love to have in play every game. In its stead, Ambition's Cost is the last piece of the draw-only version that I'm leaving in for now because it's on-theme. And since I pay life to stuff a lot, I'm going to see how Font of Agonies does, replacing Vampiric Rites.
Thought Gorger
Imp's Mischief
Ice Cauldron
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Dimir House Guard
Diabolic Intent
Dark Deal
All is Dust
Thought Gorger I tried a few times and it wasn't really doing what I wanted, but I did find myself wanting to tutor for one of the noncreature 4-drops, so Dimir House Guard is back.
Imp's Mischief probably won't be as useful with Defense Grid also here, as well as I spend the majority of the time reanimating rather than casting, so for the same reason I'm not too sad if a creature card ends up in the graveyard. Diabolic Intent usually has fodder here for the additional cost, as Demonic Tutor is in another deck (also, being ripped apart and eaten by Crovax is pretty "nightmarish"). Evidently I'm softening slightly on my tutor limitation.
Ice Cauldron is a hilarious effect and I finally got a chance to play with it, but there's nothing I really want to rattlesnake in this deck. Also, I don't want to explain how it works, apparently, so if I ever do try it in another deck, its usefulness better be worth all the explanation. In its place enters Dark Deal, which is more what I wanted out of Thought Gorger in the first place.
Finally, I'm going to test All is Dust instead of Ugin as a wipe that hits enchantments. I probably need better graveyard removal than Shred Memory anyway since that usually serves as a tutor,
but for the most part people are not going to recur their enchantments. Most often they'll be sacrificing creatures, too,
and I probably want them.
Gemstone Array
Ravenous Trap
Tortured Existence
Warping Wail
Infernal Tribute
Inventors' Fair
Crypt of Agadeem
Harvester of Souls
Memory Jar
Shred Memory
Expedition Map
Defense Grid
Vampiric Rites
Swamp
Swamp
Smothering Abomination
Sadistic Hypnotist is a pretty easy change, and should be able to do a lot more work than Mesmeric Fiend. Furthermore in interest of putting cards in the graveyard, Memory Jar is in for Gemstone Array.
Shred Memory is in for Ravenous Trap because I won't be facing a Balthor Shift anytime soon, and there are some good CMC 2 targets if I want to Transmute. Expedition Map will be more helpful than Tortured Existence and is probably a better backup Urborg than Blanket of Night.
Defense Grid is replacing Warping Wail as a more proactive counter deterrent. It could also prevent some EOT shenanigans, but won't hinder Chainer or my sac outlets.
With my relatively recent interest in token producers due to a Meren deck with Grave Pact effects, Vampiric Rites is going to do better work than Infernal Tribute, though I'm probably going to miss Tribute a little bit.
Inventors' Fair was pretty iffy as an artifact tutor since it requires three to activate. Crypt of Agadeem was in to test as a third possible ritual-land. Since it was also a testing slot these are both back to Swamps for now. Still might test the Crypt, but I need to observe how many creatures I typically have in my graveyard. I suspect I just get a lot of mileage out of the first 3-4 I get and nobody stays there very long. Also, the artifact creatures don't help and they're the regulars.
I'm also appreciative of the insight and discussions in this thread, especially from ProfessorWhen, GloriousGoose, and benjameenbear.
I must also acknowledge that I've probably gleaned a fair bit from decklists and good discussions had in other mono-black or Bx threads by: GloriousGoose, toctheyounger77, bobthefunny, Outcryqq, and MrCoupon.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Another great card that I enjoy is Memory Jar. Timing it right can be difficult, but it can serve the dual role of filling graveyards and drawing you cards.
Defense Grid is a useful card against countermagic since most of your instant-speed effects are coming from activated abilities of Chainer and your sac outlets.
I have not felt the need to run Tortured Existence in my list. I replaced it with Dark Deal and haven't looked back.
I was not impressed with Harvester of Souls, instead opting for Grim Haruspex and Smothering Abomination (this one certainly feels on-theme as well).
I also replaced mt Infernal Tribute with Vampiric Rites since I found I was more interested in sacrificing tokens over non-creatures. The lower CMC is nice, too.
You probably don't need Ice Cauldron (even though it's a hilarious card) and Gemstone Array. I might add in Expedition Map if you are worried about getting access to Urborg/Coffers/Nykthos.
re: Infernal Tribute vs. Vampiric Rites: I think Rites is by far the better pick here, as the life gain is more relevant than having higher devotion and being able to sac Cabal Coffers to Tribute so you can recur it with Crucible of Worlds/Petrified Field for two activations. Tribute does have the better art, though.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I like it, too.
I probably have both Infernal Tribute and Claws of Gix from when I used to run Spine of Ish Sah, but they serve another purpose aside from squeezing out an additional activation of Coffers/Nykthos with Crucible: getting rid of Necropotence if it becomes a liability or if I just want to activate it 20 times and not exile any of it.
Rites can definitely help my draw deeply a lot better than a Tribute can; I'd nearly forgotten it said "nontoken permanent".
I'm only running one doubler at the moment, but I want to ask you about that swamps comment. Which lands do you think are bad currently in the list? I have three guesses at the moment, but you might be thinking of more/others.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I don't think you have enough artifacts to reasonably support Inventors' Fair (it also sounds too pleasant and optimistic for the flavor of the deck) and Buried Ruins's target pool is pretty low, though I suppose it does get back your combo altars and is redundancy for Yawgmoth's Will for that. What do you usually name with Cavern of Souls? It seems like you don't have enough consistent targets to make it tap for black enough. Maybe it's useful for pushing through one or two important critters and then you're fine with it only producing colorless. I want to criticize Homeward Path but I do like the idea of reanimating something and giving it back to its owner... for a price, so I'll leave it be. I'm also skeptical of Crypt of Agadeem but with your creature density it probably works okay for you.
I did overestimate the number of doublers you run, though, so feel free to ignore all of the above. It looks like your loops are self-contained and don't require boatloads of mana so it seems less critical for you to go the typical big mana black route.
Otherwise I think your list looks like a lot of fun and I appreciate the balance of flavor/functionality. Also, +rep for the Dio reference.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
A cool tech with Necropotence is that the exile is a trigger, not a replacement effect. What this means is that if you discard something you can put the exile on the stack then reanimate it with Chainer. Its oracle wording is similar to Planar Void rather than Rest in Peace.
Edit: I forgot Necro got reprinted with updated wording. I guess it's not as obscure a detail now.
Inventors' Fair is definitely not there for flavor, but is a testing slot for an artifact tutor. Buried Ruin is recovery for important artifacts and works will with Crucible, though I've considered putting Trading Post back in or using Myr Retriever. The idea with Cavern of Souls is to name Human since Chainer and some other important pieces are Human. Crypt of Agadeem is also being tested, though I can't remember how often I have 4+ black creatures in my graveyard. I like that it can tap for B anyway; I just don't like that it enters tapped. So I'm also skeptical of some of these, even Cavern, but I figured there's only one way to see if they serve well.
Going to one doubler still feels risky because I had three in the list for so long, but I tend to be able to ramp like crazy and I think that helps. It's a trial to find the balance between mana and lifegain to support the desired balance of using non-loop wins most games and occasionally completing a loop. A couple loops could run off endless mana from Temple of Rings, but most of them rely on Phyrexian Altar or Bog Altar.
The distinction can still be an issue, and I sometimes forget it's a trigger instead of a replacement effect. I have two copies of it and I prefer the old art to the new art, but the version I have with the old art is the Deckmasters Garfield vs Finkel foil, and has a text change using "instead". So it's exactly phrased as a replacement effect. Despite the art, I should consider switching it with the new art version in Daxos since the distinction is unimportant there. I have considered Planar Void in the past (in case of too-many-graveyard-decks-on-the-dance-floor) for just this reason, but Chainer seems to be enough (though Planar Void enables shenanigans with Mirror of Fate).
I think the only graveyard deck I had the most trouble with was a Balthor the Defiled deck that ran Morality Shift. Hence the Ravenous Trap since I started playing with that group again recently.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Gemstone Array
Ravenous Trap
Tortured Existence
Warping Wail
Infernal Tribute
Inventors' Fair
Crypt of Agadeem
Harvester of Souls
Memory Jar
Shred Memory
Expedition Map
Defense Grid
Vampiric Rites
Swamp
Swamp
Smothering Abomination
Sadistic Hypnotist is a pretty easy change, and should be able to do a lot more work than Mesmeric Fiend. Furthermore in interest of putting cards in the graveyard, Memory Jar is in for Gemstone Array.
Shred Memory is in for Ravenous Trap because I won't be facing a Balthor Shift anytime soon, and there are some good CMC 2 targets if I want to Transmute. Expedition Map will be more helpful than Tortured Existence and is probably a better backup Urborg than Blanket of Night.
Defense Grid is replacing Warping Wail as a more proactive counter deterrent. It could also prevent some EOT shenanigans, but won't hinder Chainer or my sac outlets.
With my relatively recent interest in token producers due to a Meren deck with Grave Pact effects, Vampiric Rites is going to do better work than Infernal Tribute, though I'm probably going to miss Tribute a little bit.
Inventors' Fair was pretty iffy as an artifact tutor since it requires three to activate. Crypt of Agadeem was in to test as a third possible ritual-land. Since it was also a testing slot these are both back to Swamps for now. Still might test the Crypt, but I need to observe how many creatures I typically have in my graveyard. I suspect I just get a lot of mileage out of the first 3-4 I get and nobody stays there very long. Also, the artifact creatures don't help and they're the regulars.
The formatting has been under development for a while now in the testing forum. Going to start finalizing Card Choices and other sections and bring them in.
Shred Memory is probably not what I want after some testing tonight, so I'll have to reconsider my graveyard removal option slot (which include 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7).
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Thought Gorger
Imp's Mischief
Ice Cauldron
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Dimir House Guard
Diabolic Intent
Dark Deal
All is Dust
Thought Gorger I tried a few times and it wasn't really doing what I wanted, but I did find myself wanting to tutor for one of the noncreature 4-drops, so Dimir House Guard is back.
Imp's Mischief probably won't be as useful with Defense Grid also here, as well as I spend the majority of the time reanimating rather than casting, so for the same reason I'm not too sad if a creature card ends up in the graveyard. Diabolic Intent usually has fodder here for the additional cost, as Demonic Tutor is in another deck (also, being ripped apart and eaten by Crovax is pretty "nightmarish"). Evidently I'm softening slightly on my tutor limitation.
Ice Cauldron is a hilarious effect and I finally got a chance to play with it, but there's nothing I really want to rattlesnake in this deck. Also, I don't want to explain how it works, apparently, so if I ever do try it in another deck, its usefulness better be worth all the explanation. In its place enters Dark Deal, which is more what I wanted out of Thought Gorger in the first place.
Finally, I'm going to test All is Dust instead of Ugin as a wipe that hits enchantments. I probably need better graveyard removal than Shred Memory anyway since that usually serves as a tutor,
but for the most part people are not going to recur their enchantments. Most often they'll be sacrificing creatures, too,
and I probably want them.
Game Recap —
I had a pretty interesting game last Sunday where I got to practice some new interactions, most of which are from additions originating with the thematic rebuild.
Had Thawing Glaciers in my opening hand with two swamps and drew Deserted Temple. Decided to drop the Glaciers turn one so I could activate it next turn.
Bloodghast and Phyrexian Altar did a super impression of Lotus Cobra with all this land fetching (including from a couple of fetchlands). After I cast Rings of Brighthearth, I spent a turn using all of these to go to town on ramping as many basics as I could until I had only three swamps still untapped for either activating Chainer or casting Withering Boon. It was, unfortunately, a long turn — I need to practice these kinds of interactions so I have a rote understanding of how much mana it takes for each cycle of interactions.
With Kaseto, Orochi Archmage and The Ur-Dragon chipping away at my life, Kagemaro, First to Suffer got a lot of use as a wipe, and X was never less than 7 thanks to Grim Haruspex and Bloodghast. The first time, I cast Kagemaro from hand. The second was a bit more desparate and I reanimated him with Chainer and activated him, killing Chainer, too. After this is the turn I ramped like mad, so I had no problem casting Chainer for 5BB.
We also got pretty lucky that Descendants' Path revealed his Scourge of Valkas after the wipe and it went to the bottom of his library.
Had an interesting round of combat where dragons resolved Thundermaw Hellkite while I had Abhorrent Overlord and six harpies. In response I sacked them for black mana and waited for him to do something else so I could respond. He cast Blade of Selves but didn't have enough mana to attach it, and I responded by reanimating the Overlord and getting my flyers back. He attacked me with Kaalia and dropped Mordant Dragon, I think. Blocked and killed them. Definitely a poor choice to attack me then.
The third time I used Kagemaro, however, I was at 12 life and the dragons player had resolved Kokusho on the previous turn. I sacked my Abhorrent Overlord and harpies for mana (I had plenty, but I wanted to stretch it just in case and I needed another reanimation target aside from Kagemaro). I activated Chainer targeting Kagemaro and let that resolve — 9 life. I activate Chainer targeting the Overlord — 6 life. Rings triggers and I respond to it by activating Kagemaro. To this, finally, I respond by sacrificing Chainer, Bloodghast, and Haruspex to raise my cards in hand to 8 and let Chainer go to the graveyard.
Kagemaro's ability resolves, doing -8/-8. Kokusho dies and triggers, which resolves and knocks me down to 1 life. I pay 2 to the Rings trigger to copy Chainer's ability and target Chainer. That resolves and he's back as a nightmare. His original ability resolves and brings back Overlord. I cast the Claws of Gix in my hand, sacking 3 harpies to bring my life up to 4 so I can activate Chainer once and reanimate Kokusho. From there I looped him with Chainer, Phyrexian Altar, and Overlord for the win.
To be candid, I thought I had completely goofed on the math and couldn't activate Chainer again (and had helped kill myself) when I hit 1 life the first time because I had set my hand down before lining up activations. I had been ignoring the Claws of Gix in my hand up until then. It got me out of a corner that I'd put myself in because I wanted to try the Chainer-flickers-himself trick to get around Kagemaro, but I probably could have just cast him for 7BB easily and had enough to reanimate Kokusho.
I also had Wurmcoil Engine in my graveyard, Head Games and Memory Jar in my hand. So I probably could have stabilized my life and duked it out in combat with the dragons using Abhorrent Overlord and harpies to block and then use Jar and Games to tutor 7 of his best remaining dragons out of his deck and make him dump them. That Scourge of Valkas would have been pick #1!
After reflecting for a while —
Starting to think I need a bit more lifegain and artifact recursion, so I'm considering removing Vedalken Orrery for Trading Post or Myr Retriever and possibly switching Shred Memory to Suffer the Past or Crypt Incursion. The only problem I see with Crypt Incursion is not hitting the artifacts that certain red decks enjoy recycling. I'll wait until after more games to decide that. I might have enough lifegain and just didn't find it.
My thoughts on tutors are definitely changing a bit. I'm okay with the power level of this deck creeping upward since it's my favorite, but what I was actually concerned about in regard to limiting my tutors was always winning the same way or finding combo pieces too easily/quickly. So goal is flexibility and some inconsistency in what win conditions get used.
I've done pretty well without Caged Sun/Nirkana Revenant so far, and that's without putting Crypt Ghast on the battlefield yet, either. So while the ramping-instead-of-boosters experiment is successful so far (they get blown up way less often), the swamp boosters are probably more powerful as ramp, mathematically. I like Bubbling Muck as a ritual, even though Nirkana Revenant should only ever cost BBB+3 life. But I found myself also wondering if Extraplanar Lens's proper place is as a booster that supplements a primarily land ramp approach. Cheapish enough to serve as a ritual if it gets immediately blown up, but way better than a ritual if it sticks. The ramp also seems to extend its range of usefulness further into the mid-game from the late-game. One of these days I'll test it. If Phyrexian Altar keeps sticking, Lens probably will, too.
Updating OP soon.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
A card that you could consider in the spot of Fallen Ideal is Mind Slash. While it loses some utility due to its sorcery speed restriction, I think the ability to strip answers from opponents' hands and/or the best creature for Chainer to reanimate is really important. Also, is there a reason that Black Market is excluded? I think that with as many sac outlets as you have that it would be working overtime in mana production.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Once I've honed this approach to Chainer more I might test Black Market (almost certainly in Vedalken Orrery's slot) just to see how it affects how I play the deck, but so far I've had plenty of mana and wanted more life. I feel like Nirkana Revenant would be more likely to keep a slot than Market, though.
Note to self: make a Notable Exclusions section in the Card Choices section.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
The reason for this is so that if you do decide to convert this thread to a Primer, you already have a second post set aside so that you can fluidly extend the OP Primer post into two posts if you want. Just as an FYI. For my Memnarch Primer, I didn't reserve the second post and had to delete someone else's comment so that I could have the second post for my Primer.
Also, I think it might be worthwhile to draft up a competitive list for those who are interested in it. It doesn't have to be the focus of your Primer per se, but I think it would be a good addition to help add depth to your thread. A sample competitive Stax list might look something like this:
1x Chainer, Dementia Master
Creatures (24)
1x Carrion Feeder
2x Disciple of Griselbrand
2x Soldevi Adnate
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Dark Confidant
3x Liliana’s Specter
3x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Merciless Executioner
3x Grim Haruspex
4x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Erebos, God of the Dead
4x Mindslicer
4x Slum Reaper
4x Disciple of Bolas
4x Smothering Abomination
4x Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
5x Sadistic Hypnotist
5x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
5x Shriekmaw
5x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
6x Kokusho, the Evening Star
8x Pestilence Demon
8x Razaketh, the Foulblooded
9x Void Winnower
Artifacts (20)
0x Mox Diamond
0x Mana Crypt
0x Everflowing Chalice
0x Chalice of the Void
1x Sol Ring
1x Skullclamp
2x Charcoal Diamond
2x Coldsteel Heart
2x Mind Stone
2x Winter Orb
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Worn Powerstone
3x Phyrexian Totem
3x Trinisphere
3x Phyrexian Altar
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Smokestack
4x Thran Dynamo
5x Gilded Lotus
2x Blood Funnel
2x Animate Dead
3x Contamination
3x Bottomless Pit
3x Phyrexian Arena
3x Necropotence
4x Grave Pact
Instants (4)
1x Entomb
1x Dark Ritual
1x Vampiric Tutor
3x Dismember
Sorceries (12)
1x Reanimate
2x Demonic Tutor
2x Diabolic Intent
2x Sign in Blood
2x Night’s Whisper
2x Smallpox
3x Death Cloud
3x Toxic Deluge
3x Buried Alive
3x Victimize
4x Damnation
4x Yahenni’s Expertise
Lands (33)
1x Strip Mine
1x Wasteland
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x High Market
1x Volrath’s Stronghold
1x Deserted Temple
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Buried Ruin
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
19x Swamp
You might also decide not to include it at all. No worries!
Yeah, I forgot about Nirkana Revenant. Such a cool card. It should definitely find a spot somehow in my casual list since it's really good.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
We'll see if I go for actual Primer status, but I really like this deck and wanted to take a shot at putting together that much structured information about it.
I do know some other primer writers like DementedKirby who give alternate decklists, so that's a possibility I'll consider down the road. I'd probably consider adding a section for a more budget-friendly list before a competitive list. I just don't have fun with stax that keeps other players from playing the game at all. I'm okay with speedbumps and bottlenecks. For example, Chainer can play around Storage Matrix fairly well. I'm also okay with Contamination if it comes down just before a loop to protect that or fish for countermagic, but sticking it on turn 3 to jam up the rest of the table for turn after turn isn't my thing.
I really don't like destroying people's lands, especially — except for spot removal of ridiculous lands. I consider Phyrexian Obliterator a testing spot for this reason because it could be used as a sometimes unblockable 5/5, but instant speed reanimation could abuse it to utterly destroy somebody's board state in the face of a Blasphemous Act or as a surprise blocker.
By the way, where did this competitive example come from?
It is pretty good. I just wish it had flying or something. I once pumped it up to 19/19 and attacked to provoke a chump block to get rid of their creature. Then I resolved Disciple of Bolas and sacked it to that. Fun times.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
5 Chainer, Dementia Master
Creatures (34)
1 Carrion Feeder
2 Disciple of Griselbrand
2 Soldevi Adnate
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Merciless Executioner
3 Phyrexian Rager
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Disciple of Bolas
4 Smothering Abomination
4 Slum Reaper
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
5 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
5 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
5 Shriekmaw
5 Sadistic Hypntotist
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
5 Phyrexian Plaguelord
5 Seizan, Perverter of Truth
5 Bloodgift Demon
5 Magus of the Coffers
6 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
6 Abyssal Horror
6 Demon of Dark Schemes
6 Kothophed, Soul Hoarder
6 Harvester of Souls
6 Phyrexian Gargantua
7 Phage the Untouchable
7 Abhorrent Overlord
8 Pestilence Demon
8 Razaketh, the Foulblooded
9 Void Winnower
10 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
0 Everflowing Chalice
1 Sol Ring
1 Pyramid of the Pantheon
1 Skullclamp
2 Charcoal Diamond
2 Coldsteel Heart
2 Mind Stone
2 Mindcrank
3 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Ashnod's Altar
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Worn Powerstone
3 Unstable Obelisk
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Grimoire of the Dead
6 Planar Bridge
Enchantments (4)
1 Vampiric Rites
3 Mind Slash
3 Phyrexian Arena
5 Black Market
Instants (2)
2 Malicious Affliction
4 Slaughter
Sorceries (7)
2 Sign in Blood
3 Read the Bones
4 Mutilate
4 Languish
4 Diabolic Tutor
5 Promise of Power
6 Life's Finale
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Lands
1 Everglades
1 Barren Moor
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Westvale Abbey
30 Swamp
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Bone Shredder might be an option over Shriekmaw. Phage strikes me as an odd choice since you don't have XHD or Phyrexian Reclamation to get it back from the graveyard and can't reanimate it.
I like that you're sticking primarily to card draw. If life becomes an issue, Basilisk Collar could be useful with all the big guns you have. Also works well on Pestilence Demon.
Looks good, though.
Now on my Bucket List with Chainer is: reanimate someone else's Kothophed, force it back to them with Homeward Path or Faceless Butcher, then do a sacrifice loop to kill them. Just have to make sure they don't have a sacrifice outlet of their own.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Phage the Untouchable is in there simply for nostalgia purposes. She was one of the very first rares I ever bought and I loved the fact that she was also one of the first cards that literally had written on it "You win if you attack with this creature." There's a heavy density of removal and forced discard in my list, as the idea is to create a favorable board state for my creatures to connect for combat damage. It's why I included all the forced sac effect creatures possible (Fleshbag Marauder, Slum Reaper, and Merciless Executioner). I want none of my opponents to have blockers or answers to Phage so that she can insta-kill people. And if she dies, that's totally fine. She's in here for nostalgia and for "WTF, you're playing her?" value.
Loxodon Warhammer gives my creatures the lifelink aspect I'm looking for. Basilisk Collar is good tech, but I don't want to consistently wipe my whole field as well. Usually, 3 activations of Pestilence Demon is enough to clear the field, which is acceptable. The Warhammer is also $0.39, and it gives a combat damage boost while also turning many of my creatures into 4-turn clocks. It's been decent in application and I think it's fine.
I've found myself, as an EDH player, coming into a weird paradigm: I need to have 2-3 highly competitive decks actually built (Memnarch, Teferi, and Edric decks for me) and then a grip of casual decks to play with as well (Nicol Bolas, Chainer, Yisan in my gauntlet). I play different skill levels and I find that I increase the overall volume of games if I use the right decks in the right playgroup and skill level. I'd hate to curb-stomp the whole table on T4 with my Teferi Stax deck and piss everyone off, minimizing the number of games I actually play. I'm more interested in the game and social interactions it provides, and different level of deck intensities help to deliver an enjoyable game for everyone that maximizes the number of games I get. For this reason, I've tried to minimize the tutors in the deck. It gives variance to each game, doesn't feel as streamlined and efficient from my opponents' perspective, and helps to give an enjoyable experience for all involved. But the moment I feel like I want to win, I can happily pull out one of my 3 cEDH decks and feel confident that I will win and soothe my ego, haha.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Gonti nabbed me some countermagic that I used to stop Mizzix's Caged Sun. Later I reanimated him and took Firemind's Foresight (which would have been pretty useful had I cast it).
Praetor's Grasp, however, I aimed at Kaseto. I thought about taking their Phyrexian Metamorph, but there weren't many useful things to copy. Instead I took their Orochi Hatchery. Mizzix attempted somewhat of a one-sided wipe with Comet Storm, killing whatever I had. Kaseto played Skullwinder and I got the Ghast back because they didn't want Mizzix to have the Comet Storm back. I used Kagemaro to wipe, followed by recasting Crypt Ghast and Whip of Erebos, and passed the turn.
Mizzix tapped out to overload Mizzix's Mastery, which ended up only getting them 6 cards by copying Mystic Confluence with Howl of the Horde, because everything else was x. Kaseto pumped up as much as they could and hit me for a decent chunk but didn't kill me. At this point I poured 24 mana into casting the Hatchery and it resolved with 12 counters. After the Ghast's extort trigger, which saved my bacon over the course of the game, I had 5 mana left to activate it, so I did.
Mizzix recasts their commander (I think they were trying to set up for something and needed the discount). Can't remember what Kaseto did, but they tapped out. So I activate the Hatchery again and start drawing a ton of cards with Skullclamp. Down comes Massacre Wurm to take out both of their commanders again. Down comes Blood Artist, and Fallen Ideal attached to the Wurm. I attack Mizzix with the first set of snakes to gain some life and bring them down to 7, then I kill 7 snakes to finish him off with Blood Artist's triggers. Kaseto couldn't really touch my life total now, and got machine-gunned with snakes.
After reflecting on this game, I came to a few decision regarding my next batch of changes.
As for other replacements, I'm considering adding an additional wipe in the form of Life's Finale, Nevinyrral's Disk, or Mutilate. A source of lifegain might be useful because that still seems to be a highly limiting factor, and possibly artifact recursion. For this the good ol' Trading Post toolbox is under consideration, but so is Loxodon Warhammer or Basilisk Collar to encourage me to use combat more.
That 7-drop spot could be Sheoldred, perhaps.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
It looks like Sidisi spiders might be my other big gun. Zedruu is probably the best balanced with my most frequent playgroup at the moment (it has almost won a couple times now). That's the fun shenanigans "make the game state interesting" sort of space I'd like the Marchesa grixis clones I'm working on to be in, as well.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Great game report! It sounds like an enjoyable game, all things considered. I think that Blood Artist helped you definitively close the door on the game that you were already going to win. From what I gather, you had a pretty insurmountable mana and Reanimator advantage over your opponents; why bother giving them a couple of turns just to inevitably die? It sounds like the Artist helped close the game out so that you could potentially shuffle up for another game. That's one of the reasons I like infinite or semi-infinite combos to be present in my deck somehow; it helps accelerate a game so that I can get more games in within a play session. Food for thought.
I chose to run Life's Finale because the decks that I would be playing against with Chainer have some sweet Reanimator targets. Being able to grab them proactively out of their deck while resetting the field, setting up a great play sequence on my next turn, is very ideal to me. Chainer would be going up against a Bladewing the Risen Dragon Reanimator deck, a Kaalia of the Vast deck (my wife's), and a couple other goodstuff decks. The Finale sets me up to take advantage of their decks. And of course, the Disk helps to get rid of problematic Enchantments and Artifacts. Why not run both in place of some of the cards you want to cut?
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief is a great, repeatable removal and combat damage mana sink. I'm quite fond of her in mono-Black decks.
If you're contemplating a 7-drop spot... would Void Winnower be too mean against your playgroup? I like that it helps to force combat damage through and helps to disrupt my opponents in their removal choice. Plus, it's got lots of spaghetti arms and honestly looks like something that Chainer would summon from Dementia space. The Eldrazi are weird and nightmarish creatures, so I felt it appropriate to run the two better ones. Reanimating Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger still feels really good even if I miss the cast trigger.
If the Eldrazi aren't useful to you or would be overpowered, I recommend Pestilence Demon. It's a solid beater, helps keep the board under control from stupid weenie swarms, kills most random hate-bears that would disrupt a Reanimator strategy, and has cool flavor text. Do note I am a removal-heavy deckbuilder, so I come from the bias that adding more removal is always better.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I don't think Void Winnower would be too bad, as long as one guy in my group finally agrees that zero is even. I was about to find a slot for Winnower at the top of the Birthing Pod curve in my Ruric Thar deck. Eldrazi are definitely on-theme and I'm running a couple right now (the theme does manifest in a number ways, though, not just ugly creatures). Newlamog might be a bit much, as far as power level, but we'll see how that develops and if games with another higher-powered group become more frequent. Pestilence Demon, on the other hand, sounds like a pretty good toolbox to do fun stuff with lifelink and things dying.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko