I have returned to this thread after several months to maybe a year (has it been that long? I don't think I have posted much since Rivals of Ixalan.)
Well, last I remember reading, Scapegoat was a card being tested. What has the verdict been? Is it really all that good, especially in a more competitive meta?
I like keeping up with the most competitive form of the list even though I am using a more casual build. I have actually powered my list down, cutting fast mana rocks and cheap tutors and replacing them with Burst draw and color fixing 2cmc rocks. In my playgroup of my wife and friends, Edgar was becoming opressively fast. Now it is a threat which wins some and loses some. The inclusion of the new Liliana and Dolman Gate since I was last here is interesting and has been added to my buy list.
I hope you reopen this thread wherever we all end up going once MtGSalvation shuts down. If possible, please link us to a new thread when it is available.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I have returned to this thread after several months to maybe a year (has it been that long? I don't think I have posted much since Rivals of Ixalan.)
Well, last I remember reading, Scapegoat was a card being tested. What has the verdict been? Is it really all that good, especially in a more competitive meta?
I like keeping up with the most competitive form of the list even though I am using a more casual build. I have actually powered my list down, cutting fast mana rocks and cheap tutors and replacing them with Burst draw and color fixing 2cmc rocks. In my playgroup of my wife and friends, Edgar was becoming opressively fast. Now it is a threat which wins some and loses some. The inclusion of the new Liliana and Dolman Gate since I was last here is interesting and has been added to my buy list.
I hope you reopen this thread wherever we all end up going once MtGSalvation shuts down. If possible, please link us to a new thread when it is available.
As for scapegoat, I have a lot of experience using it against fairly good decks. The one mana per turn is nothing and doesn't slow you down. I have never cast it against a wrath and still lost the game that I can remember. It has won me at least two games. I actually tutored for it once just to be certain I would win since I didn't need a finisher at the time. And whaddaya know, somebody cast a wrath which I stopped, winning me the game. In my experience, the most common reason this deck loses is wraths, and stopping one increases the odds of winning drastically. I will never cut scapegoat.
As for scapegoat, I have a lot of experience using it against fairly good decks. The one mana per turn is nothing and doesn't slow you down. I have never cast it against a wrath and still lost the game that I can remember. It has won me at least two games. I actually tutored for it once just to be certain I would win since I didn't need a finisher at the time. And whaddaya know, somebody cast a wrath which I stopped, winning me the game. In my experience, the most common reason this deck loses is wraths, and stopping one increases the odds of winning drastically. I will never cut scapegoat.
Thanks for the reply, and I would like to respond to a few key points:
First of all, the list you linked to is quite unimpressive to me. I do not know how you figure that it is the most competitive build of Edgar Markov. Combo does not mean more competitive. From reading the primer, I looks like it is trying to do what other decks do better, and by that I mean with fewer cards, fewer points of failure, costing less mana to pull off, and often with control elements to protect their combo which Edgar lacks. I would much rather play Kess, Zur, or Breya versions of Doomsday than Edgar Markov. Moreover, it feels like a waste of the Commander itself. Outside of Razaketh, the Foulblooded, there is no reason to use Edgar over the other options. If people enjoy it, then great, but if I want to play combo competitively, which I do, then I have better options. I play Edgar Markov as the most competitive agro deck I have ever seen. It can straight beat decks down in no time.
Second, concerning Scapegoat, it still resets your board. The point of a wrath is to clear the board, and without any haste enablers (which this deck does not have), you still have to recast your hand of Vampires and want for another round at the table and more potential Wrath effects to resolve without Scapegoat in your hand any longer. How is that better than something like Boros Charm? I know that the difference between one and two mana is a big deal in competitive magic, but I would think that the difference between surviving a Wrath while the rest of the table lost their board and having to recast my hand and wasting a full round at the table is a larger setback. Maybe I am wrong.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Thanks for the reply, and I would like to respond to a few key points:
First of all, the list you linked to is quite unimpressive to me. I do not know how you figure that it is the most competitive build of Edgar Markov. Combo does not mean more competitive. From reading the primer, I looks like it is trying to do what other decks do better, and by that I mean with fewer cards, fewer points of failure, costing less mana to pull off, and often with control elements to protect their combo which Edgar lacks. I would much rather play Kess, Zur, or Breya versions of Doomsday than Edgar Markov. Moreover, it feels like a waste of the Commander itself. Outside of Razaketh, the Foulblooded, there is no reason to use Edgar over the other options. If people enjoy it, then great, but if I want to play combo competitively, which I do, then I have better options. I play Edgar Markov as the most competitive agro deck I have ever seen. It can straight beat decks down in no time.
Second, concerning Scapegoat, it still resets your board. The point of a wrath is to clear the board, and without any haste enablers (which this deck does not have), you still have to recast your hand of Vampires and want for another round at the table and more potential Wrath effects to resolve without Scapegoat in your hand any longer. How is that better than something like Boros Charm? I know that the difference between one and two mana is a big deal in competitive magic, but I would think that the difference between surviving a Wrath while the rest of the table lost their board and having to recast my hand and wasting a full round at the table is a larger setback. Maybe I am wrong.
Let’s just agree to disagree about the deck i posted. Nobody on this thread would want to read our discussion about combo or cEDH, so I should not have linked it in the first place.
You’re right that scapegoat is not ideal because: it takes up all your mana the next turn, you cannot attack next turn, and a second wrath may be played. However IF you feel you need a direct answer to wraths it is in my opinion the best option in mardu colors for the following reasons:
1. It works against everything
2. It is the lowest mana investment for a half-decent answer to wraths(unless of course you use it), which is extremely important when racing is the priority
3. There is always a turn in the early/midgame where you’ve loaded up the board to the point that someone may cast a wrath. If you have something like eldrazi monument or teferi’s protection in hand, you have to wait until the following turn to use it, at which point someone may have already wrathed. However with scapegoat you can hold up one mana and have insurance on that critical turn.
4. It has additional utility outside of wraths if need be.
Again like you said when used scapegoat is not ideal but it still puts you in an excellent position compared to the other players.
boros charm is not a terrible answer either, and it can really be a blowout when it works. Only issues are that it doesn’t work against everything and you cannot always reasonably hold up the mana for it during that critical turn I mentioned. Holding up the mana each turn after that is not nearly as taxing as you might think.
In a recent game of mine, someone used aetherspouts of all things, and I had boros charm mana held up. That was extremely frustrating. If I had had scapegoat, I probably would have won.
I am not saying to run scapegoat or any cards devoted to wraths. You need to consider how many wraths you see in your meta. If that number is low, anti-wraths cost you a card and mana to do nothing. If you see a lot of wraths, I tell you from experience that they will really up your win percentage.
What do you guys think about cutting Rakish Heir from a list? For me it was just too cluncky and whenever I had a chance to play it I actually did something else so I'm wondering if replacing it with Yahenni, Undying Partisan would be correct move since Yahenni is a very good standalone vampire that can grow big and has built-in free sac outlet.
Also since I tweaked my deck to be a little more mono-black I've added Bolas's Citadel, which with Necropotence works amazing and each of these cards allows me to manipulate my library enough to make Vampire Nocturnus a viable, powerful lord.
I am with you. We can agree to disagree. I appreciate sharing ideas in a civil way, so we can improve as players.
Regarding scapegoat, I aagree that it does help combat a wider range of sweepers. From -x/-x, to exile, to tuck boad wipes. All of which are more common in the last 5+ years and that Boros Charm fails to answer while sitting dead in your hand.
I like the casual inclusion of Bolas's Citadel. Even without Necropotence to rip lands off the top, the ability to cast spells for life in a deck with a low curve is nasty.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
How about Zealous Persecution as a combat trick AND potential boardwipe? It basically encourages alpha strikes and once you use it, your opponents become very hesitant to block.
How about Zealous Persecution as a combat trick AND potential boardwipe? It basically encourages alpha strikes and once you use it, your opponents become very hesitant to block.
It's too midrangy for this tempo/aggro deck. Other cards that I'd compare it to(that I don't play) are:
It also doesn't help you if you have an empty board or if opponents have a bunch of big creatures. I guess if your meta has decks with a lot of x/1s it could be good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Zealous Persecution was good in Black White Tokens in Modern for a time. It is not good against most of the field in Commander.
Especially when much of the "tricks" in this deck revolve arpund giving our team fear/menace/prevent all damage delt to them. That stuff is all a lot better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Drain Life, as far as scapegoat is concerned it has been a huge allstar in the deck. yes it resets your board, but say you have purphoros out still or something similar. you almost most insta win on the recasting.
I would like to hear opinions on a few cards that I haven’t seen discussed much on here.
springleaf drum and paradise mantle: I can’t get a read on how these would perform. They seem like a trap. Cutting a land for them doesn’t seem right. Say I miss my land drop on turn 5 (and we arent even guaranteed that much), these only put me ahead on turns 3-4 so land seems better since it makes mana without tapping my dudes. Pretty sure they aren’t good enough to cut a nonland and risk flooding out either. Also a land is a better draw when we have no land in hand.
Winter Orb: There's no reason this shouldn't work in here right? Do we not just win if it isn't answered quickly? ISBP discussed it before. Perhaps I misunderstood him, but I got the impression that he thinks orb is good. He just doesn't run it because it is unsavory and he dislikes that it keeps him from playing.
Selfless spirit: Anti-wrath. Seems like a better answer to wraths than zulaport cutthroat at least (I understand zulaport has additional utility but his primary purpose is wrath-punishment no?) Two mana doesn’t slow us down and it can be cast pre-emptively, unlike eldrazi monument for example which may be too late. Also kinda a combat trick. He is obviously not hard to remove though (like zulaport), so I think this is probably the bottom of the barrel.
But the best card against wrath’s is necropotence.
None of the cards you listed deal damage to the face of the opponent, but Eldrazi Monument and Zulaport Cutthroat do, and this deck wants to do.
Winter Orb is best in a deck with a lot of mana dorks and mana rocks, which this deck doesn’t have. I’d compare it to Stranglehold, a solid card that our deck doesn’t run.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
That is a very good point about winter orb and other MLD. That’s the kind of insight I was hoping for. I can think of plenty of decks that don’t care about MLD. Our deck gets quite hosed by it though. Plus it negates the value of our big draw spells if we can’t play. Still I can’t help but think orb is a lockout for us most of the time.
Zulaport doing damage conditionally is great, but would something like gruesome fate or price of progress not just be better since they deal the same damage unconditionally? (well much less conditionally) I suppose the lifegain might matter if we have a necropotence or ad naus and the opponents wipe the board, but that seems narrow. Zulaport can come down before a wrath unlike the burn cards, but we are still likely in topdeck mode with no board in that situation so I don’t know how much the punishment matters there.
I would like to hear opinions on a few cards that I haven’t seen discussed much on here.
springleaf drum and paradise mantle: I can’t get a read on how these would perform. They seem like a trap. Cutting a land for them doesn’t seem right. Say I miss my land drop on turn 5 (and we arent even guaranteed that much), these only put me ahead on turns 3-4 so land seems better since it makes mana without tapping my dudes. Pretty sure they aren’t good enough to cut a nonland and risk flooding out either. Also a land is a better draw when we have no land in hand.
Winter Orb: There's no reason this shouldn't work in here right? Do we not just win if it isn't answered quickly? ISBP discussed it before. Perhaps I misunderstood him, but I got the impression that he thinks orb is good. He just doesn't run it because it is unsavory and he dislikes that it keeps him from playing.
Selfless spirit: Anti-wrath. Seems like a better answer to wraths than zulaport cutthroat at least (I understand zulaport has additional utility but his primary purpose is wrath-punishment no?) Two mana doesn’t slow us down and it can be cast pre-emptively, unlike eldrazi monument for example which may be too late. Also kinda a combat trick. He is obviously not hard to remove though (like zulaport), so I think this is probably the bottom of the barrel.
I can comment on Springleaf Drum and Paradise Mantle. I've been playing with them for about two months now. Springleaf Drum has been awesome. Your creatures typically don't have haste so using drum for an extra mana from your leftover token feels very good. I'm about as happy with as with sol ring in my opening hand, due to both acceleration and fixing. (that BBB can be a *****) Paradise Mantle I'm keeping in, but that's mostly because my manabase is pretty budget (no shocks/fetches/duals). You typically don't want to keep it on a single guy, because you want to attack with it, so the 1 mana equip sort of sorts. It's great in terms of mana fixing and that burst of acceleration we want.
Selfless Spirit and Winter Orb I haven't played but they don't seem great. Wraths are typically my problem, Aetherspouts/Cyclonic Rift are. I'm even playing REB to combat them. It's also the reason why I cut scapegoat, it's nice but I feel I need the slot for something more proactive. Selfless Spirit just seems worse than zulaport cutthroat. Winter Orb seems bad in a deck that plays practically zero mana rocks in a format where almost everybody else does.
I apologize now for being absent for the last few weeks. I have been reading comments but catching up now might be a little redundant given the amount of discussion and conversation. If anyone wants my thoughts on something still I would be happy to respond given anything aimed at me. I wanted to do some set reviews for the recent content and do some updates and thoughts though.
MODERN HORIZONS SET REVIEW
WHITE
Force of Virtue - Given how this is a three color deck and heavily black at that this would be hard to alternate cast. The idea of a tempo anthem is kind of interesting but given how difficult and selective it probably is to cast it for free its not likely to be good enough. Its also very questionable as to if its worth two cards for a simple anthem even if we could get it for free.
Generous Gift - Three mana any target removal is quite useful but I think that the 3/3 it leaves behind might be enough of a pain for this deck that I wouldn't say its a shoe in. Anguished Unmaking is a really good card for a deck like this and in general a 3/3 isn't a big loss for commander but for this deck I think I am willing to pass on this effect.
On Thin Ice - sorcery speed removal, and the reliance of snow lands to boot is a pass. There are so many cheap removal options we have and this one doesn't measure up.
Ranger-Captain of Eos - Similarly to Ranger of Eos, I don't think its good enough card advantage and there isn't really a one drop I feel the need to tutor at the cost of playing a three drop non vampire to do so. Really in a lot of cases we could also run the recruiters to do the same.
Winds of Abandon - It could be a means of removing defenses to send the team through. The problem being that shy of the overload it seems very bad and even the overload might be a little concerning if you don't kill players very soon afterwards. It kind of reminds me of Mizzium Mortars but maybe with a worse drawback.
RED
Magmatic Sinkhole - given that we have access to things like Swords to Plowshares (which I am not currently using) I don't think this really stands out all that well as far as removal options go.
Cordial Vampire - This one has a lot better synergy with sac outlets but it still gives some measure of evasion in that anything that is killed in combat makes the rest of them stronger.
Force of Despair - the option to kill multiple threats entering together with no mana spent is kind of appealing. Some decks might make a large setup of tokens in one turn so, maybe? The downsides being that its responsive and actually casting it isn't very reasonable leaving it mostly to be cast for the alternate cost which requires some card draw setup to really make the tempo casting of it reasonable.
Graveshifter - Given we get 4 bodies for 5 mana probably its.... ok. Its slower and more reactive than I would really like though.
Mob - Given the free bodies we get on casting vamps convoke could be decent. The issue is that this effect is probably a bit responsive rather than something we can plan to use assuming you want it to be an instant and that is probably the main reason its going to be worse than 1-2 mana removal.
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - As far as removal goes, this resembles Goblin Bombardment in a lot of ways to me. The fact that its draw AND removal really has me intrigued. It doesn't have the reach to remove players that Goblin Bombardment has but honestly I never thought I would have a card that I felt even came close to Goblin Bombardment. While its hard to compare them directly I think there are other things to keep in mind with Yawgmoth. If for instance I am attacking with multiple 2/2 vampires and I am blocked by a 2/2, I could use Yawgmoth to sacrifice and shrink the size of the blocker without going as far as killing it which I would have to do with Goblin Bombardment if I wanted to save that creature. It means that our utility vampires might be able to more freely attack while Yawgmoth is in play.
MULTI
Etchings of the Chosen - Three mana non vampire anthems are a little suspect. The protection this card gives doesn't really help a swarm strategy all that well and the fact that it costs mana to activate really keeps us from using it very broadly. If someone has a sweeper its probably going to get almost everything which makes this card a little questionable in my mind.
Kaya's Guile - The options are decent but as far as a three mana instant goes, it feels a lot more like the type of card you would want in a very responsive deck rather than a proactive low curve deck like this. We tend to move fast enough that graveyard effects tend not to be my biggest concerns and as far as the edict effect goes, we could get the same for less.
COLORLESS
Mox Tantalite - Suspend three is just wayyyyyyyyy too much time to wait. Moxes tend to fall off given time and even if you were to open with this in your hand the fact that it has a three turn wait is just too much.
Sword of Sinew and Steel - I like the effects of this card but I like it more for midrange and control type of decks. Paying 5 mana to cast and equip this seems a little questionable in this deck. I don't love the protection evasions and we tend to rely more on swarm tactics then powering up specific attackers.
Sword of Truth and Justice - This sword seems best utilized for a voltron deck or a planeswalker deck. You could theoretically push +/+ counters about slowly but it seems too slow for my likes.
Universal Automaton - Another 1 drop vampire. Nothing really to say about it other than that its colorless. Its not really high on my own list but I could see it being reasonable if you need more one drops or have challenges with what your landbase looks like.
LAND
Prismatic Vista - Its nice that its another fetchland that can fix as needed. My issue is that it fixes with basics which is really unfortunate as it means that our landbase isn't set up as well after it is used. In a lot of cases we want heavier black mana as many of our vampires are black and things like Necropotence are very demanding. My issue with this land is that while it fixes immediately the landbase isn't established as well as drawing a dual land or fetchland in most cases. I think...... for now I plan to pass on it.
Silent Clearing - Its probably worth testing. The life loss from producing mana isn't really a huge deal my issue is more that if I am doing little enough that sacrificing this land to draw a card is a reasonable move I am doing REALLY bad and its not that likely that using mana and lands to draw a card is going to really leave me in a great position. In a lot of cases I use a lot of mana with this deck and I don't always have card draw but I still usually want to have more lands to do things like cast Edgar or cast multiple things in a turn. I just don't really see much appeal in sacrificing a land and essentially paying 2 mana and losing one of those lands to draw a single card.
Brought Back - This could be a fun card to use to recover fetchlands or with some sac tactics potentially too. My concern offhand is the WW casting cost. Without pushing for more sac outlets and sac friendly effects its also probably not great.
RED
Cavalier of Flame - The activated ability on this is actually really good for this deck. The ETB seems fine as well. The death trigger probably won't be huge but is ok. Really the reason I won't be playing this comes down to the RRR casting cost, 5 cmc, and the fact that its not a vampire. The activated ability is kinda sweet but its too expensive and not a vampire.
Chandra, Acolyte of Flame - Assuming you want to play more of an Aristocrats / sac based build this is actually kind of sweet. The two tokens that she makes die at end of turn on their own so even if you don't have a sac outlet it would still trigger Grave Pact / Blood Artist effects.
Bloodthirsty Aerialist - its effect is ok. Maybe if it was a two drop but as a three drop its too slow.
Cavalier of Night - its not a vampire and its slow. That said, its a kill spell and a rez effect. Even given all that, its probably not good enough for this deck but if you run heavier sac built it could kind of be nice but I think still probably a miss.
Knight of the Ebon Legion - Its a one drop black vamp that grows on its own and has options to buff for mana. It looks really nice and I am absolutely putting it in.
Scheming Symmetry - If it was a to hand tutor it might change my thoughts on this card but as it is, your opponent gets to draw theirs first and its too much of a risk for this deck to do that. If this card tutored to hand it would probably be worth testing as you could theoretically tutor a wincon to win right then and there and let someone tapped out tutor. As it is, I don't think this really has any chance of being good for us.
Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord - I like that its a cheap walker who helps vampires. My issue though is that for the most part it doesn't do enough for this deck in commander. The buff portion of it is single target which doesn't help our swarm tactic very well. The sacrifice to bolt portion is not terrible and in a lot of cases we can sacrifice weak tokens to remove bigger blockers and or utility creatures so I guess maybe that portion is decent. The last ability to put a vampire into play really doesn't have good synergy with how this deck is built and it bypasses the commander's free token. Overall, the sacrifice to bolt is probably the strongest option with him but I am not sure how much I like him for that.
Vampire of the Dire Moon - One drop vamps are great, this one can trade up which is also great. I am totally putting it in. The lifelink portion of it is a lot less important than the deathtouch part but why not I guess.
Vilis, Broker of Blood - Everything it does seems nice for this deck, it just costs too much to cast for this deck.
Sorin, Vampire Lord - The ult looks nice, but the other abilities are very weak and he costs too much. Not a chance.
Savage Gorger - Its actually not that bad. As a three drop its not quite good enough but if it was a two drop it probably would have made it in. Close but not quite.
Sorin's Guide - It costs too much for its body and the Sorin it tutors isn't very good.
Thirsting Bloodlord - Hummmmmmmm it really sucks in that its a worse stat line than really all of the other anthem vamps. Its not so bad that I am going to say that it can't / won't be run but for now I am probably going to pass. This seems like a good budget vamp though for sure for those whose lists are a little slower and need more beefing up.
MULTI
Corpse Knight - So, its a creature, non vampire Impact Tremmors. Generally speaking its probably worse to have Impact Tremmors be a creature instead of an enchantment butttttttt there might be some exceptions depending on your build if you were to say cast Command the Dreadhorde (given that you could rez among the others).
COLORLESS
Icon of Ancestry - When you break down the different anthems that could be run in vampires this one might be one of the better small anthems. Generally speaking +1/+1 isn't sufficient of a buff in commander though. I would say this one is probably still worse than Eldrazi Monument and Vanquisher's Banner but comparing a three mana anthem to 5 mana anthems isn't really fair either. I probably won't be running this myself but I think this is probably a lot better than a random Glorious Anthem / Spear of Heliod for this deck. It could perhaps be useful in a budget deck serving as both an anthem and potential card draw.
LAND
Field of the Dead - Its an ETB tapped colorless land which is kind of really really bad for this deck. In the late game it would be fun to get free zombie tokens but I think the cost upfront for a deck trying to move as fast as this deck is likely is too much. This deck runs so few basic lands that it would really be easy to trigger its effect for zombies but I think the ETB tapped and colorless mana production is enough that I will hold off.
Lotus Field - its a cool effect but I don't see a lot of advantage to run it in this deck.
So, that's a lot to soak up. There are some fantastic one drops and given some of the recent discussion I agree that trimming some of the less ideal two drops and adding more one drops seems like a good thing to test first. I have been sorting out my thoughts for a while now on how exactly I wanted to make the changes for this deck and while the first changes were easy, I found that I had some additional changes I wanted to make.
Tithe Drinker -> Knight of the Ebon Legion Tithe Drinker never really did what I wanted it to do for me. The knight is cheaper and should be better in combat which seems like a big upgrade.
Vampire Interloper -> Vampire of the Dire Moon Interloper is ok, it has evasion and is a two drop. I like this new wave of one drops though so lets move instead to one that trades up nicely and could be used effectively on defense in a pinch.
Stromkirk Condemned -> Cordial Vampire I have always questioned Stromkirk in that its a tempo anthem which takes a lot of good draw to maintain and make useful. Cordial Vamp seems like he will be good with sac outlets and even without anyone blocking vampires will make the rest more powerful and make it harder for some sweepers to work against me.
So, this is where I was at initially with the changes from these recent sets. I keep seeing new cards that make us better when sacrificing creatures and I think I will do some shifting to make that better if for no other reason to try and see how the changes work for me.
Drana, Liberator of Malakir -> Yahenni, Undying Partisan Drana is cool card and I really like her design. That said, she is slow. Given recent improvements with sacrificing creatures I figured I would go deeper down that path and I like that Yahenni is robust and can grow big.
Scapegoat -> Falkenrath Aristocrat I think that Scapegoat is a cool card but I also haven't gotten to test it much and its responsive rather than proactive. Its a cool card if you can keep up the mana for it and have it work out but there are a lot of other situations that can come up that it doesn't help with. I prefer to be proactive with this deck and I think that really any sort of wrath protection effects might all have the same issues with them which is why for now, I am just going to move away from them entirely. If someone reading is having issues with being swept, I encourage to run more draw cards and its even possible that some sort of mass resurrect effects could be useful but keeping mana up and waiting to respond and stop a sweeper seems like probably the wrong way to do it (at least to me). This deck is very mana hungry and keeping resources to respond seems like its not the goal that this deck should have. Falkenrath is kind of expensive but I like that its a big hastey flyer who is very robust and its a sac outlet. Its a card I have always enjoyed and with having more cards that care about sacrificing creatures it seems like a fun card to have access to. Moving the mana cost up is something I am a little hesitant to do but I want to try it out.
Dolmen Gate -> Judith, the Scourge Diva I have really been struggling with what I want in this slot. I tried a few different things and with the shift to more sac outlets I think that Judith makes more sense now than ever before. She gives a good anthem that works with the tokens and the pinging on deaths helps give me reach or trade in combat / kill blockers and utility creatures.
Blood Seeker -> Pawn of Ulamog Blood Seeker is a creature who can have wildly varrying results. I love it when I get him against a token deck but there are plenty of decks he doesn't do much against. I figured its better to work off of what our deck does than rely on opponents to be playing specific tactics. Adding Pawn in helps a lot more with the sac outlet plan we have coming in and honestly the mana it could produce is also kind of appealing.
This leaves me with a slightly increased creature count with three new sac outlets in the list. I am excited to see how the changes I outlined here go. I know this is kind of an intense list of changes. If anyone wants to give feedback or thoughts I would encourage it. If anyone is testing any of the other new cards I would also look forward to hearing any reports of testing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Looks good, however, didn't that change rise your average CMC a little? Also how about mana base? I think it should prioritise a little more B lands like Rugged Prairie for Luxury Suite?
Looks good, however, didn't that change rise your average CMC a little? Also how about mana base? I think it should prioritise a little more B lands like Rugged Prairie for Luxury Suite?
As of right now, those changes are a total mana cost of deck +2 mana total. I cut three mana and added 5 for a net gain of two mana. Most of this was that I cut Scapegoat for Falkenrath Aristocrat which if you are breaking down the topcard cmc cost for things like bob / ad naus then yes its a small tick up but if you actually break down how much mana you intend to spend on Scapegoat recasting the creatures you bounce its probably a lower cost. The cost of keeping scapegoat up to respond is also not nothing even if it is cheap it might cost you playing other plays for a few turns. Between keeping mana up to respond and then trying to recast them I felt that increasing the mana cost to a card I can proactively play was better than a reactive one. Scapegoat can also become redundant with good card draw which is the other reason I am not too keen on it. If I am chaining from good draw effect to another I often have a hand of things to burn even if I get swept so keeping Scapegoat up while chaining draw doesn't always work out and in a lot of cases I have to consider it like a reactive card draw effect. I also think its worth noting that Falkenrath Aristocrat is somewhat robust which might leave some pressure in play through a sweeper so we are being somewhat proactive still while also setting up a robust threat in play.
I keep meaning to check and see what I am running in my actual list for lands but I keep forgetting to do so. One of these days I will get around to it lol. I have been holding off on really doing anything with it until I get a chance to sit down and look into it.
@ISBPathfinder: First of all I'm quite curious how Judith, the Scourge Diva will do in your list. It's a card I'm currently on the cusp about.
Secondly I'm interested about how you think about Bold Impaler and Universal Automaton. They're basicly the only one drop vamps you are not playing and I personally think Universal Automaton is an auto-include.
How worth it are goblin war drums and Iroas, God of Victory for you? I'm currently playing neither, but I'm unsure whether or not I'm truly missing them.
I play Bold Impaler in my build but will replace it with Knight of the Ebon Legion as it's strictly better. Knight is also black and I play Ascendant Evincar as both pump and hinderance so Impaler sometimes loses his boldness. Universal Automaton has no abilities so is worth less than token it makes. Big NO for it. Just my three eurocents.
@ISBPathfinder: First of all I'm quite curious how Judith, the Scourge Diva will do in your list. It's a card I'm currently on the cusp about.
Secondly I'm interested about how you think about Bold Impaler and Universal Automaton. They're basicly the only one drop vamps you are not playing and I personally think Universal Automaton is an auto-include.
How worth it are goblin war drums and Iroas, God of Victory for you? I'm currently playing neither, but I'm unsure whether or not I'm truly missing them.
Universal Automaton isn't terrible in that its easy on the manabase but it also doesn't have any upsides to it other than being easier to cast. It gets better with the worse your landbase is. If I were to try to include it over another one drop vampire the ones I would consider cutting would be:
Guul Draz Assassin I often consider this one to be a vanilla 1/1 for B. That said, its level up and tap abilities are not nothing and can be used in a pinch. I am not against cutting it for something else but that something else isn't going to be an easy to cast one drop with literally no abilities.
Guul Draz Vampire again, this one is probably a 1/1 for B 95% of the time. I am not against cutting it but it wouldn't be for something that is just easier to cast.
Quag Vampires 1/1 for B with some semblance of evasion. Urborg isn't so rare that I am in a hurry to cut this one.
Stromkirk Noble its a 1/1 for R which I am not that fond of. When its drawn off curve it kind of really sucks too which makes this guy mostly only decent when drawn early. Of the ones I am highlighting as being underwhelming, this one is kind of higher for me because its red and falls off the later its drawn.
The reason in my mind to run Universal Automaton is for its easy to cast mana cost. The worse your landbase, probably the better it gets. I am not opposed to removing the above one drops but its probably going to be for another one drop that I feel gives me more than they do. We had an issue up until late that we wanted more one drops than we had access to really. As more one drop vampires become available the worse ones will slowly phase out.
Judith, the Scourge Diva - its something I am far from confident in but its also an effect I have been curious about. I am including it to test and see how it goes but I am far from convinced that it will stay in the long run.
Iroas, God of Victory / Goblin War Drums - Both have worked fairly well for me. Iroas is definitely better even thought it costs one more mana the fact that our creatures don't trade in combat and opponents blockers are half as effective has been very good for me. If an opponent is playing token tactics it makes our numbers essentially twice as effective at getting past and if an opponent is not playing tokens it makes them almost incapable of blocking us. Iroas lets you attack and almost ignore defenses as they are so irrelevant not killing our attackers and requiring great numbers to block.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I have been juggling things and waiting for the new cards to show up for M2020 which has kind of delayed me testing. I sort of hate testing decks as I wait for a bunch of changes so I have been putting it off. I still don't have any testing in for Judith but I will try to report back if and when I do manage to see and test her.
I would probably say Gamble is more likely to work out better for you than Scheming Symmetry. Keep in mind its topdeck tutoring at sorcery speed meaning that the other player gets their card before you get yours. It technically is the Imperial Seal effect but the fact that you give away an Imperial Seal is my concern. There are a lot of other possible tutors as well they are all just less efficient. Some other draw or vampire could also be an option if you don't come up with something that quite makes sense.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Well, last I remember reading, Scapegoat was a card being tested. What has the verdict been? Is it really all that good, especially in a more competitive meta?
I like keeping up with the most competitive form of the list even though I am using a more casual build. I have actually powered my list down, cutting fast mana rocks and cheap tutors and replacing them with Burst draw and color fixing 2cmc rocks. In my playgroup of my wife and friends, Edgar was becoming opressively fast. Now it is a threat which wins some and loses some. The inclusion of the new Liliana and Dolman Gate since I was last here is interesting and has been added to my buy list.
I hope you reopen this thread wherever we all end up going once MtGSalvation shuts down. If possible, please link us to a new thread when it is available.
Fun fact: this list is far from the most competitive version of edgar markov. That would be http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/31-01-19-symphony-of-the-knight/
As for scapegoat, I have a lot of experience using it against fairly good decks. The one mana per turn is nothing and doesn't slow you down. I have never cast it against a wrath and still lost the game that I can remember. It has won me at least two games. I actually tutored for it once just to be certain I would win since I didn't need a finisher at the time. And whaddaya know, somebody cast a wrath which I stopped, winning me the game. In my experience, the most common reason this deck loses is wraths, and stopping one increases the odds of winning drastically. I will never cut scapegoat.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Thanks for the reply, and I would like to respond to a few key points:
First of all, the list you linked to is quite unimpressive to me. I do not know how you figure that it is the most competitive build of Edgar Markov. Combo does not mean more competitive. From reading the primer, I looks like it is trying to do what other decks do better, and by that I mean with fewer cards, fewer points of failure, costing less mana to pull off, and often with control elements to protect their combo which Edgar lacks. I would much rather play Kess, Zur, or Breya versions of Doomsday than Edgar Markov. Moreover, it feels like a waste of the Commander itself. Outside of Razaketh, the Foulblooded, there is no reason to use Edgar over the other options. If people enjoy it, then great, but if I want to play combo competitively, which I do, then I have better options. I play Edgar Markov as the most competitive agro deck I have ever seen. It can straight beat decks down in no time.
Second, concerning Scapegoat, it still resets your board. The point of a wrath is to clear the board, and without any haste enablers (which this deck does not have), you still have to recast your hand of Vampires and want for another round at the table and more potential Wrath effects to resolve without Scapegoat in your hand any longer. How is that better than something like Boros Charm? I know that the difference between one and two mana is a big deal in competitive magic, but I would think that the difference between surviving a Wrath while the rest of the table lost their board and having to recast my hand and wasting a full round at the table is a larger setback. Maybe I am wrong.
Let’s just agree to disagree about the deck i posted. Nobody on this thread would want to read our discussion about combo or cEDH, so I should not have linked it in the first place.
You’re right that scapegoat is not ideal because: it takes up all your mana the next turn, you cannot attack next turn, and a second wrath may be played. However IF you feel you need a direct answer to wraths it is in my opinion the best option in mardu colors for the following reasons:
1. It works against everything
2. It is the lowest mana investment for a half-decent answer to wraths(unless of course you use it), which is extremely important when racing is the priority
3. There is always a turn in the early/midgame where you’ve loaded up the board to the point that someone may cast a wrath. If you have something like eldrazi monument or teferi’s protection in hand, you have to wait until the following turn to use it, at which point someone may have already wrathed. However with scapegoat you can hold up one mana and have insurance on that critical turn.
4. It has additional utility outside of wraths if need be.
Again like you said when used scapegoat is not ideal but it still puts you in an excellent position compared to the other players.
boros charm is not a terrible answer either, and it can really be a blowout when it works. Only issues are that it doesn’t work against everything and you cannot always reasonably hold up the mana for it during that critical turn I mentioned. Holding up the mana each turn after that is not nearly as taxing as you might think.
In a recent game of mine, someone used aetherspouts of all things, and I had boros charm mana held up. That was extremely frustrating. If I had had scapegoat, I probably would have won.
I am not saying to run scapegoat or any cards devoted to wraths. You need to consider how many wraths you see in your meta. If that number is low, anti-wraths cost you a card and mana to do nothing. If you see a lot of wraths, I tell you from experience that they will really up your win percentage.
Also since I tweaked my deck to be a little more mono-black I've added Bolas's Citadel, which with Necropotence works amazing and each of these cards allows me to manipulate my library enough to make Vampire Nocturnus a viable, powerful lord.
Regarding scapegoat, I aagree that it does help combat a wider range of sweepers. From -x/-x, to exile, to tuck boad wipes. All of which are more common in the last 5+ years and that Boros Charm fails to answer while sitting dead in your hand.
I like the casual inclusion of Bolas's Citadel. Even without Necropotence to rip lands off the top, the ability to cast spells for life in a deck with a low curve is nasty.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
It's too midrangy for this tempo/aggro deck. Other cards that I'd compare it to(that I don't play) are:
It also doesn't help you if you have an empty board or if opponents have a bunch of big creatures. I guess if your meta has decks with a lot of x/1s it could be good.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Especially when much of the "tricks" in this deck revolve arpund giving our team fear/menace/prevent all damage delt to them. That stuff is all a lot better.
GVorinclex, Voice of HungerG
WUBMerieke Ri BeritWUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' VoiceGWUB
springleaf drum and paradise mantle: I can’t get a read on how these would perform. They seem like a trap. Cutting a land for them doesn’t seem right. Say I miss my land drop on turn 5 (and we arent even guaranteed that much), these only put me ahead on turns 3-4 so land seems better since it makes mana without tapping my dudes. Pretty sure they aren’t good enough to cut a nonland and risk flooding out either. Also a land is a better draw when we have no land in hand.
Winter Orb: There's no reason this shouldn't work in here right? Do we not just win if it isn't answered quickly? ISBP discussed it before. Perhaps I misunderstood him, but I got the impression that he thinks orb is good. He just doesn't run it because it is unsavory and he dislikes that it keeps him from playing.
Selfless spirit: Anti-wrath. Seems like a better answer to wraths than zulaport cutthroat at least (I understand zulaport has additional utility but his primary purpose is wrath-punishment no?) Two mana doesn’t slow us down and it can be cast pre-emptively, unlike eldrazi monument for example which may be too late. Also kinda a combat trick. He is obviously not hard to remove though (like zulaport), so I think this is probably the bottom of the barrel.
If Cutthroat is on the field the same time as any of these cards and an opponent plays these cards:
Cutthroat can still provide value whereas selfless spirit does nothing. Also Cutthroat can help us get around cards like:
But the best card against wrath’s is necropotence.
None of the cards you listed deal damage to the face of the opponent, but Eldrazi Monument and Zulaport Cutthroat do, and this deck wants to do.
Winter Orb is best in a deck with a lot of mana dorks and mana rocks, which this deck doesn’t have. I’d compare it to Stranglehold, a solid card that our deck doesn’t run.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Zulaport doing damage conditionally is great, but would something like gruesome fate or price of progress not just be better since they deal the same damage unconditionally? (well much less conditionally) I suppose the lifegain might matter if we have a necropotence or ad naus and the opponents wipe the board, but that seems narrow. Zulaport can come down before a wrath unlike the burn cards, but we are still likely in topdeck mode with no board in that situation so I don’t know how much the punishment matters there.
I also play fetches, shocks, and painlands, so the lifegain is very relevant.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I can comment on Springleaf Drum and Paradise Mantle. I've been playing with them for about two months now. Springleaf Drum has been awesome. Your creatures typically don't have haste so using drum for an extra mana from your leftover token feels very good. I'm about as happy with as with sol ring in my opening hand, due to both acceleration and fixing. (that BBB can be a *****)
Paradise Mantle I'm keeping in, but that's mostly because my manabase is pretty budget (no shocks/fetches/duals). You typically don't want to keep it on a single guy, because you want to attack with it, so the 1 mana equip sort of sorts. It's great in terms of mana fixing and that burst of acceleration we want.
Selfless Spirit and Winter Orb I haven't played but they don't seem great. Wraths are typically my problem, Aetherspouts/Cyclonic Rift are. I'm even playing REB to combat them. It's also the reason why I cut scapegoat, it's nice but I feel I need the slot for something more proactive. Selfless Spirit just seems worse than zulaport cutthroat.
Winter Orb seems bad in a deck that plays practically zero mana rocks in a format where almost everybody else does.
MODERN HORIZONS SET REVIEW
WHITE
RED
BLACK
MULTI
COLORLESS
LAND
M2020 SET REVIEW:
WHITE
RED
BLACK
MULTI
COLORLESS
LAND
So, that's a lot to soak up. There are some fantastic one drops and given some of the recent discussion I agree that trimming some of the less ideal two drops and adding more one drops seems like a good thing to test first. I have been sorting out my thoughts for a while now on how exactly I wanted to make the changes for this deck and while the first changes were easy, I found that I had some additional changes I wanted to make.
DECK CHANGES:
This leaves me with a slightly increased creature count with three new sac outlets in the list. I am excited to see how the changes I outlined here go. I know this is kind of an intense list of changes. If anyone wants to give feedback or thoughts I would encourage it. If anyone is testing any of the other new cards I would also look forward to hearing any reports of testing.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
As of right now, those changes are a total mana cost of deck +2 mana total. I cut three mana and added 5 for a net gain of two mana. Most of this was that I cut Scapegoat for Falkenrath Aristocrat which if you are breaking down the topcard cmc cost for things like bob / ad naus then yes its a small tick up but if you actually break down how much mana you intend to spend on Scapegoat recasting the creatures you bounce its probably a lower cost. The cost of keeping scapegoat up to respond is also not nothing even if it is cheap it might cost you playing other plays for a few turns. Between keeping mana up to respond and then trying to recast them I felt that increasing the mana cost to a card I can proactively play was better than a reactive one. Scapegoat can also become redundant with good card draw which is the other reason I am not too keen on it. If I am chaining from good draw effect to another I often have a hand of things to burn even if I get swept so keeping Scapegoat up while chaining draw doesn't always work out and in a lot of cases I have to consider it like a reactive card draw effect. I also think its worth noting that Falkenrath Aristocrat is somewhat robust which might leave some pressure in play through a sweeper so we are being somewhat proactive still while also setting up a robust threat in play.
I keep meaning to check and see what I am running in my actual list for lands but I keep forgetting to do so. One of these days I will get around to it lol. I have been holding off on really doing anything with it until I get a chance to sit down and look into it.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Secondly I'm interested about how you think about Bold Impaler and Universal Automaton. They're basicly the only one drop vamps you are not playing and I personally think Universal Automaton is an auto-include.
How worth it are goblin war drums and Iroas, God of Victory for you? I'm currently playing neither, but I'm unsure whether or not I'm truly missing them.
Everything will - [Primer] Sheoldred, Whispering One - Bow to Phyrexia!
Turboland - Azusa, Lost but Seeking - Control
Vampires' - Edgar Markov - Bites
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow - Jumping Ninjas
Daretti, Scrap Savant - From Scrap to Treasure
Prime Speaker Zegana - Primal Surge permanentness
Krenko, Mob Boss - Angry Goblins CHARGE!
Traximundar - Flashback Forward
Universal Automaton isn't terrible in that its easy on the manabase but it also doesn't have any upsides to it other than being easier to cast. It gets better with the worse your landbase is. If I were to try to include it over another one drop vampire the ones I would consider cutting would be:
The reason in my mind to run Universal Automaton is for its easy to cast mana cost. The worse your landbase, probably the better it gets. I am not opposed to removing the above one drops but its probably going to be for another one drop that I feel gives me more than they do. We had an issue up until late that we wanted more one drops than we had access to really. As more one drop vampires become available the worse ones will slowly phase out.
Judith, the Scourge Diva - its something I am far from confident in but its also an effect I have been curious about. I am including it to test and see how it goes but I am far from convinced that it will stay in the long run.
Iroas, God of Victory / Goblin War Drums - Both have worked fairly well for me. Iroas is definitely better even thought it costs one more mana the fact that our creatures don't trade in combat and opponents blockers are half as effective has been very good for me. If an opponent is playing token tactics it makes our numbers essentially twice as effective at getting past and if an opponent is not playing tokens it makes them almost incapable of blocking us. Iroas lets you attack and almost ignore defenses as they are so irrelevant not killing our attackers and requiring great numbers to block.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Also could Scheming Symmetry be a budget replacement for Imperial Seal or should I get something else in that spot?
I have been juggling things and waiting for the new cards to show up for M2020 which has kind of delayed me testing. I sort of hate testing decks as I wait for a bunch of changes so I have been putting it off. I still don't have any testing in for Judith but I will try to report back if and when I do manage to see and test her.
I would probably say Gamble is more likely to work out better for you than Scheming Symmetry. Keep in mind its topdeck tutoring at sorcery speed meaning that the other player gets their card before you get yours. It technically is the Imperial Seal effect but the fact that you give away an Imperial Seal is my concern. There are a lot of other possible tutors as well they are all just less efficient. Some other draw or vampire could also be an option if you don't come up with something that quite makes sense.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies