I guess I'm in a favorable meta as people tend to play 0,5 creatures a turn on average. As such I have not had issues with swinging in with tokens and, as a result, Throne of the God-Pharaoh has been one of my better cards. I do believe that If there's a higher average of creatures a turn (2+) then throne becomes a bit awkward.
I'm just going to try Bombardment out and see for myself how well the card performs. It's always best to support an argument with actual test results and as it seems to be working for you guys I'm gonna try it out.
I do want to trow two more arguments in there, because I can't let it slip
- Mimic should definitely not be played as a last card before a board wipe, but rather the first one after it.
- Bombardment does provide an alternative way of attack and I'm sure that I'm happy having him when facing Propaganda / Ghostly Prison and Terminus. I'm just not sure if I'm also happy with him if I'm not facing these cards but I'm gonna test this out and see for myself. I guess this is mainly because I have not been too impressed with Blood artist either, as this also suffers from dealing damage to one person only.
Edit: When running all 4 the Cutthroats I'm sure you want a third sac outlet and then Bombardment is probably the best option.
We have some differing opinions. Testing a banned commander in a 1v1 format is not relevant for what cards should or shouldn't be included in a multiplayer deck. The game, especially as an aggro deck, is vastly different in a multiplayer format.
My main issue with Throne of the God Pharoah is not creatures on the board, it's boardwipes.
In regards to bombardment, I'm a big fan of the card. I'm currently still playing mimic but it's at the front of my cut list. Throne of the God Pharaoh and Impact Tremors have been cut quite a while ago. Goblin Bombardment is way better than those cards. It's a sac outlet, that finishes games, is a good political tool (if you board wipe me, il point all this damage at you), is great against our main problem cards (cyclonic rift and terminus) and can be played both early and late. And it multiplies our blood artist effects and aims them at the most relevant players (I kill you in response to your spell, so it doesn't resolve). In an scenario where you draw your cards in the optimal order and our opponents do nothing to interact with you, yes there are better mathematical options. But in a Multiplayer scenario with people trying to stop what your doing, bombardment wins you more games.
I do agree with you on Mirror Entity, if people don't remove it, you typically KO atleast one person out of the game the next turn. Sol Ring is interesting, I do agree it's probaly good enough for this deck. The acceleration to play your Sanctum Seeker, Champion of Dusk and that sort of stuff is good enough I think for it to replace a land.
Bolas's Citadel has been awesome for me once again. Viscera Seer or Necropotence + Citadel is just an instant win. And otherwise you both ramp and draw cards and the 10 life drain has been relevant quite a bit as well. So I would really recommend it even though it's at the top of our curve.
My testing usually happens in a 4 player game and I definitely evaluate cards for multiplayer only.
A friend of my playgroup just wanted to test his deck against my vampires and we played 10-15 games or so.
I agree with you that 1v1 is a different format, but we can still learn things from this, even playing just by yourself can be useful.
If cards like Bolas's Citadel have any potential can be tested as well in a 1v1 environment as in multiplayer I'd say.....
I don't see why Throne of the God Pharaoh or Impact Tremors are bad against wipes though.
I do agree that mimic is one of the cards that might be cut. As is impact tremors but I just don't have enough test results with him.
Throne has been too good for me.
My testing usually happens in a 4 player game and I definitely evaluate cards for multiplayer only.
A friend of my playgroup just wanted to test his deck against my vampires and we played 10-15 games or so.
I agree with you that 1v1 is a different format, but we can still learn things from this, even playing just by yourself can be useful.
If cards like Bolas's Citadel have any potential can be tested as well in a 1v1 environment as in multiplayer I'd say.....
I don't see why Throne of the God Pharaoh or Impact Tremors are bad against wipes though.
I do agree that mimic is one of the cards that might be cut. As is impact tremors but I just don't have enough test results with him.
Throne has been too good for me.
Throne of the God-Pharaoh the reason I don't like it is that I compare it to other cards like say Sanctum Seeker, Brutal Hordechief, and or Mardu Ascendancy. All three of these care about having a number of attackers and evasion makes them better. I don't think there is any argument here that the throne is like 1/3 as good as Sanctum Seeker but thats not really a reason to say its not playable. I don't like it because of how much more situational it is than the others and that you need creatures and a way for them to survive combat. It does essentially nothing if you can't make profitable attacks and have a number of creatures afterwards. In that sense, it feels winmore to me in that it needs more setup than a lot of other cards.
Impact Tremors - I like the card but its a card that in my mind needs to stick multiple turns to make it worthwhile. That or you need to draw it as you draw a bunch of cards and proceed to cast a bunch of others. I can't tell you how many games I curved it in and it didn't survive the turn. Its a card that draws a lot of attention to itself and the payoff for it is generally if it lives 2-3+ turns. I just had too many games where it didn't survive when I played it and I don't like that it needs to be curved in before we dump our hand. It isn't going to be a good topdeck card if we don't have draw going and it does slow us down to some extent to curve it in an opener. I like Purphoros because I am more than willing to pay twice the mana for twice the effect and his anthem effect could be useful if drawing dead (I will admit to having never used it though). Being indestructible also helps him survive in places where Impact Tremors might not. Ultimately, I felt that the payoff for Impact Tremors was not enough on the frontside of casting it. It felt to me like it was a card that needed to survive multiple turns while being a big red flag to everyone at the game that perhaps it should die. I am a big fan of getting my value upfront for this type of deck and I just saw too much of the value spaced out for this card for my liking. Impact Tremors is a card where you need to cast it before putting a horde of creatures into play and I found that the timing that I was trying to get it in play as well as how long it needed to survive weren't adding up in my favor. It might be half of Purphoros but I was seeing less than 1/3 the value from it due to how it is easier to remove. Nobody wants to let you have Purphoros but the indestructible can and often is what lets him stick to the board.
I guess I'm just lucky with my meta as I can generally swing in with my team and only lose one or maybe two vamps. Therefore I'm quite happy when I draw throne and I'd even value him at 50% of Sanctum. But this is obviously due to my meta.
Impact Tremors: You are quite right about this card, it’s not the best at turn two, we rather want to play it after a board wipe. However this card becomes good only after having played 3 or 4 vampires (whereas purphoros would only need 2 vamps played). In ideal case we have 4 one mana vampires and then tremors is very good, however most often we will not and will need multiple turns. This card might be to slow for Edgar and I'll switch it for bombardment for now.
ISBP, I would like to hear your thoughts about an underdiscussed topic, the manabase. Ill start by asking about lands you run and then talk about lands you don’t.
1. Cavern of Souls: has this helped enough to justify causing casting problems for noncreatures, particularly necropotence? Also nonbos with filterlands. Any reason not to run unclaimed territory too then?
2. Vault of the Archangel: how often do you use this? For me its been nonbasic wastes thats occasionally a combat threat, since I have not once used it.
3. Rugged Prairie: since the deck is so heavily black, does the nonblack fixing justify the downsides (may force you to filter a black source into a nonblack one, colorless sometimes, nonbasic)
5. Bond land cycle (tapped unless 2+ opponents): would you recommend despite them being bad in 1v1 and sometimes lategame?
6. Prismatic Vista from modern horizons: swamp is better 80% of the time but that 20% could make a huge difference. Autoinclude?
7. Modern horizons cantrip cycle (horizon canopies for enemy color pairs): Very torn on this. The mana ability alone is awful. We don’t run painlands for similar reasons. Is the cantrip ability worth the pain? I think probably not in this deck because we could use that life to dig several cards deeper with suicide draw.
ISBP, I would like to hear your thoughts about an underdiscussed topic, the manabase. Ill start by asking about lands you run and then talk about lands you don’t.
1. Cavern of Souls: has this helped enough to justify causing casting problems for noncreatures, particularly necropotence? Also nonbos with filterlands. Any reason not to run unclaimed territory too then?
2. Vault of the Archangel: how often do you use this? For me its been nonbasic wastes thats occasionally a combat threat, since I have not once used it.
3. Rugged Prairie: since the deck is so heavily black, does the nonblack fixing justify the downsides (may force you to filter a black source into a nonblack one, colorless sometimes, nonbasic)
5. Bond land cycle (tapped unless 2+ opponents): would you recommend despite them being bad in 1v1 and sometimes lategame?
6. Prismatic Vista from modern horizons: swamp is better 80% of the time but that 20% could make a huge difference. Autoinclude?
7. Modern horizons cantrip cycle (horizon canopies for enemy color pairs): Very torn on this. The mana ability alone is awful. We don’t run painlands for similar reasons. Is the cantrip ability worth the pain? I think probably not in this deck because we could use that life to dig several cards deeper with suicide draw.
I haven't really done an audit on the landbase in some time so its possible my landbase could be tuned up from where it is right now.
Cavern vs Unclaimed - I think both are playable and fine. I mostly have not had issues with them. They are really good fixing and while its true that it can't help towards Necropotence the same could be said about any of the lands in the deck that don't produce black naturally. It fixes nicely in able to cast any type of creatures in the first few turns. I honestly haven't found the uncounterable to be crucial yet in part because my meta doesn't run a lot of counter magic but in being slightly more optimal and because I own 6 caverns I included one here. I think its probably fine to run both of these lands or substitute and just run Unclaimed Territory in a pinch. It could bite you in the ass but I also don't always have Necropotence openers either.
Vault of the Archangel - it really has not come up much for me. I still include it because the chance of me needing it in the mid game as an evasion / trade enabler seems solid still even though it could give me issues in my opener. Its not something I would be overly upset if I were to cut it but I also think the mid / late game use of it could be important sometime which is why I have kept it so far. Its definitely a big of a give and take but I really can't think of a time I have activated it.
Rugged Prairie - I can't remember if I am actually running it in my paper list or not. Like I said the landbase hasn't been audited in some time which makes it a little harder for me to say if its 100% accurate with what I run. You are correct in that it can be a little awkward in that it doesn't produce black mana but its fixing for nonblack can also be relevant. I can't say for certain if its still in my list or not but I think it could go either direction without there being a definite right answer on to run it or not.
Mana Confluence - You could run City of Brass as well. Technically Confluence is very very minorly stronger in that if an Urborg is in play you don't have to pay life to make black mana with Confluence but you do with City. You should due to this run Confluence over City if you want to be optimal but you can also run both if you want. I find these lands to be a pain to track though and the landbase is fairly good already which is why I don't have both. If you want to value fixing and don't mind tracking and losing a little life then yes it is a little more optimal to run both.
Battlebond Lands - My honest opinion of them is that they are fine if you are running a budget or exactly a two color deck that can run them. I don't think they generally are strong enough to out hedge the cycles of lands you want to run in a 3+ color deck assuming you are talking optimal landbases full of fetchlands / ABU duals / Shocks / the whole nine yards of lands. I would generally consider them to be at a similar level as the Dragonskull Summit cycle so if you are considering that cycle of lands then I think its about similar to that for playability.
Prismatic Vista I am sure I will find room for it somewhere. Its worth mentioning that you don't want to end up with too low of a basic count though and my current count looks to be 6 so I can't say for sure that it would replace a basic just due to concerns of having some basics. Its something I will have to test though so it might come in for a basic swamp and see if I notice an issue with that or not.
Silent Clearing / Sunbaked Canyon - I am sure I will try them out. Adding a cantrip option to them does help a lot. Its possible I might even up my land count by some amount (maybe like one more lands total for both) to include them in that they can fix the issue of flooding lands. I mostly don't run painlands just because I don't need to but the utility of sacing a land to cantrip is good. The pain in the ass is that I expect all of them to likely be $30+ so it adds yet more money to a landbase. Well, I guess I already ordered two boxes so lets hope they are good.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Etchings of the Chosen seems right up Edgar's alley. An anthem, a sac outlet (albeit not free), and a way to save a couple important creatures in the face of a board wipe.
Etchings of the Chosen seems right up Edgar's alley. An anthem, a sac outlet (albeit not free), and a way to save a couple important creatures in the face of a board wipe.
It could work but I think it has the same issue that a lot of non vamp anthems have. The protection that it lends could be nice but its unlikely that we could actively protect more than like one target at a time as keeping up multiple mana to try to keep a board wipe from wrecking us sounds hard. Maybe it could protect a key vampire though but overall I think it has a lot of competition for similar potential buffs. Judith, the Scourge Diva is a card I would maybe hold in similar regard for this deck even though its not exactly the same setup in a lot of cases you could weigh the pros and cons of the two cards to be relevant in different situations.
Its not to say that Etchings couldn't work, I just think that its not as natural of a shoe in maybe. There are some other cards that could be weighed similarly close with slightly different uses. This deck doesn't naturally play well towards keeping mana up for abilities and thats where I am coming from here. Even actively trying to keep up one activation might completely change what you play and how quickly you move your hand with this deck. I would normally consider this deck to be a tap out sort of deck.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Sunbaked Canyon I don't think this will make a huge difference for the deck. I'm just not a fan of lands that don't produce black but it'll probably be fine if you have one. If it's going to be 30 euro's I don't think I'll get one though.
Prismatic Vista, we are a three color deck, but I just don't see any situation where I'd like to go get a mountain or plains. (except if there's like a blood moon in play but yeah....). When I have a plains or mountain in my opening hand it always feels bad. It's probably fine though, but not a significant improvement for Edgar.
Etchings of the Chosen I don’t think I'll try this for the reasons mentioned by ISBPathfinder. I've tested a lot of anthem effects and they just don't work. Same for effects that require you to keep mana up. Force of Virtue does have some appeal. Unfortunately we probably don't have enough white and I’m not entirely sure that exiling a card is worth it's effect...... a 'free' anthem effect however is something I’d be willing to try out.
Regarding Vault of the Archangel I've found that it comes up like in one out of 20-30 games where it's useful. It's fine but not really significant. It's just useful enough to include for me though, since I don't know any other colorless sources that are useful to us. I'm currently trying out ancient tomb in its place. Can't evaluate this change though.
I don't own any Battlebond Lands so I can't really give an opinion on those. But then again you didn't ask for my opinion in the first place
Anyway really nice set so far, and two cards that I’m really really happy with!
Sunbaked Canyon I don't think this will make a huge difference for the deck. I'm just not a fan of lands that don't produce black but it'll probably be fine if you have one. If it's going to be 30 euro's I don't think I'll get one though.
Prismatic Vista, we are a three color deck, but I just don't see any situation where I'd like to go get a mountain or plains. (except if there's like a blood moon in play but yeah....). When I have a plains or mountain in my opening hand it always feels bad. It's probably fine though, but not a significant improvement for Edgar.
Etchings of the Chosen I don’t think I'll try this for the reasons mentioned by ISBPathfinder. I've tested a lot of anthem effects and they just don't work. Same for effects that require you to keep mana up. Force of Virtue does have some appeal. Unfortunately we probably don't have enough white and I’m not entirely sure that exiling a card is worth it's effect...... a 'free' anthem effect however is something I’d be willing to try out.
Regarding Vault of the Archangel I've found that it comes up like in one out of 20-30 games where it's useful. It's fine but not really significant. It's just useful enough to include for me though, since I don't know any other colorless sources that are useful to us. I'm currently trying out ancient tomb in its place. Can't evaluate this change though.
I don't own any Battlebond Lands so I can't really give an opinion on those. But then again you didn't ask for my opinion in the first place
Anyway really nice set so far, and two cards that I’m really really happy with!
Yea I agree Changeling Outcast seems like an easy shoe in. There are a few one drops that don't do anything other than be a one drop so it easily comes in for one of them assuming we don't want more one drops. I will probably just insert it for a one drop and call it good.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I still feel like I want to drop the vampire curve lower if possible so I'm going to cut a two drop. Mainly because it feels better to play two one drops instead of one two drop because we then have 4 bodies. I also think we have the card draw to support this play style. However I'm not sure yet what the right mana curve is for Edgar so I might change my mind on this in the future. Anyway It's an upgrade over some of our other one drops for sure!
Edit:
From the two drop I consider these good enough: Dusk Legion Zealot -> drawing a card is worth the second mana Cruel Celebrant -> because of wraths, and because pings all opponents Legion Lieutenant -> lord is worth the second mana (even third mana I guess)
The two drops i'm not sure about if they are worth the extra mana: Bloodghast -> I changed my mind about him after clamping him 5 times in one game (mainly due to fetches). But games without clamp it didn't feel worth the second mana. Olivia's Bloodsworn -> I used to find the haste very useful but since dropping the curve I often don't have one red to spare. Therefore mainly good because of flying, and could maybe be replaced by a one drop with flying. Blood Artist -> If a board wipe happens with 8 + vampires it deals 8 dmg to one player, that's ok but nothing special in my opinion. Also because it has 0 toughness and no evasion most of the time it's not attacking itself.
Then the two drop that probably in my opinion are not be worth the extra mana: Bloodthrone Vampire -> I guess only played because of the Zulaports? can be used as a combat trick... but I don't know, on it's own it's nothing special. Stromkirk Condemned -> it's a semi lord but definatly the worst we have. Also 2 drops that don't require two colored mana go better with sol ring and mana crypt Tithe Drinker -> yeah well... this just isn’t our best two drop… Vampire Interloper -> see Olivia’s and its worse. Blood Seeker is probably great in the right meta, but is not in mine. If it's good it's worth the second mana though.
I still feel like I want to drop the vampire curve lower if possible so I'm going to cut a two drop. Mainly because it feels better to play two one drops instead of one two drop because we then have 4 bodies. I also think we have the card draw to support this play style. However I'm not sure yet what the right mana curve is for Edgar so I might change my mind on this in the future. Anyway It's an upgrade over some of our other one drops for sure!
I agree that more one drops should always be our objective with this build. I generally don't make changes until I see a whole set since I can't get my hands on the cards yet anyways but I will keep it in mind when I do make adds.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Interested to hear what ISBP thinks the weakest two-drops are in the current list, aside from stromkirk condemned which he has expressed disappointment with before.
Interested to hear what ISBP thinks the weakest two-drops are in the current list, aside from stromkirk condemned which he has expressed disappointment with before.
In my own list I would say Blood Seeker or Tithe Drinker would be the next ones I would look at cutting. Blood Seeker can be strong but its very situational on what your opponent is doing. If they are a token deck it might do real work but in a lot of cases its a non evasive vamp that applies low pressure and is worse the later its drawn. Tithe Drinker is kind of the inverse in that it gets better the later we draw it as far as we will have more mana to pay for extort but its very mana intensive for what it does and extorting is usually worse than playing more threats and cards so its not exactly good alongside good draw.
I would probably say I would cut Tithe Drinker next given that I don't really feel that the extort on it is very relevant for this deck and it lacks evasion or good stats. I am still kind of ok with an early game Blood Seeker but I don't feel like I am really every happy to see Tithe Drinker.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Winds of Abandon definitely piqued my interest. One sided board wipes are really strong and it exiles on top of that! the mana cost of 6 is a bit steep though.....
Winds of Abandon definitely piqued my interest. One sided board wipes are really strong and it exiles on top of that! the mana cost of 6 is a bit steep though.....
It's good, but are you gonna use it against a mono-colored token deck?
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Winds of Abandon definitely piqued my interest. One sided board wipes are really strong and it exiles on top of that! the mana cost of 6 is a bit steep though.....
It's good, but are you gonna use it against a mono-colored token deck?
Short answer: Yes
Long answer:
I assume you’re going to cast a board wipe in one of three situations:
1. One player is so far ahead that a board wipe is needed or people start dying.
2. You are so far behind compared to the rest of the board that a board wipe is needed.
3. Wiping the board can win you the game or at least take out another player
In situation one, I can assume that they probably don’t have a filled hand because everything is in play so giving them mana isn’t the worst (mono tokens is something like krenko I guess? Probably not that much card advantage there). If they do have a huge hand size and their board is significantly better…. Well what are you going to do than anyway?
Situation two: we probably rather have a wrath here. But in 90% of the time we don’t want to cast a wrath due to our own board state. Situation tree: If you’re taking them out who cares if they get land?
Winds of Abandon vs Kindred Dominance:
Exiling provides an answer to recursion effects, something which is quite common in EDH in my opinion. It also answers: Indestructable, Regerate, Totem armors, Go to the graveyard triggers. Though these are less common it’s nice to have an answer to it if needed.
But I guess the main reasons winds will be better than kindred is that, at worst, it will be an expensive Path to Exile. Therefore it’s never dead in hand while kindred can be. Also 7 mana cards are in my opinion not really playable with a 33-34 land manabase. Even the 6 is probably going to be a problem.
Of course playing against a mono colored deck probably gives them all their basics in play, so it’s definitely something you have to be careful about when casting this card. In most cases It’s probably OK giving them lands. path to exile is a good card so I’m assuming that this card will be quite good too. I do see your angle though and I’m just going to have to test this card out. I’m not stating that it’s an auto include, it just looks like an interesting card for edger to test out.
I’ve run both and these are my thoughts about them:
I guess their biggest upside is the 3 power. They add the same amount of pressure on the board as two one drops (4 power total) if not including any anthem effects. For this reasons it feels quite okay to be casting these on turn two compared to some of the other 2 drops.
Their biggest downside is that they are sort of just ’vanilla’ creatures in that their effect is not all that relevant.
Adanto Vanguard has a build in Reconnaissance and anti-wipe effect. It’s also an excellent blocker and I never felt bad drawing or playing this card. Paying 4 life is rather hard with all the other effects that cost life in the deck though.
Asylum Visitor’s effect just isn’t that likely to be activated. If it would draw us a single card guaranteed that I’d play it for sure and it would even be worth the second mana. If it would draw us a card every turn It might have been the best two drop we would have. As is, I think I had in in play for 10 times and only once got a card out of it because my own hand was empty.
In my opinion both could be replaced by one drops. In the tier list I posed I’d put them in the bottom tier. I personally would cut Asylum Visitor first. I think Adanto isn’t worse or better than the other cards in the bottom tier.
I think in general we don’t want to run removal, even though we have access to some of the best removal in the format. We want to be the proactive deck and kill people before they get going. Goblin bombardment and Captivating vampire are really the only pieces of “removal” that I run.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I think Yawgmoth, Thran Physician has potential in this deck. Edgar produces tons of tokens to feed -1 life ability gaining us card draw and removing potential threats all at the same time. The proliferate ability is more niche but nice when your vamps have +1/+1 counters on them
@NZB2323: I have no idea if Winds of abandon is of any use but I'm just going to try it out as I do sometimes want a one sided board wipe. I'm wondering how you deal with stuff like moat, Dueling Grounds, Propaganda, Spike Weaver or similar effects. I do feel like there are some permanents that we have to have an answer for….
I think Yawgmoth, Thran Physician has potential in this deck. Edgar produces tons of tokens to feed -1 life ability gaining us card draw and removing potential threats all at the same time. The proliferate ability is more niche but nice when your vamps have +1/+1 counters on them
My first thought was that it's worse than Skullclamp, but on second thought it does seem somewhat interesting. I guess it's main use will be sacking your entire board in response to a board wipe and achieve a similar effect as a Minions' Murmurs. It does provide some additional value as well. Might be worth trying.
@NZB2323: I have no idea if Winds of abandon is of any use but I'm just going to try it out as I do sometimes want a one sided board wipe. I'm wondering how you deal with stuff like moat, Dueling Grounds, Propaganda, Spike Weaver or similar effects. I do feel like there are some permanents that we have to have an answer for….
I think Yawgmoth, Thran Physician has potential in this deck. Edgar produces tons of tokens to feed -1 life ability gaining us card draw and removing potential threats all at the same time. The proliferate ability is more niche but nice when your vamps have +1/+1 counters on them
My first thought was that it's worse than Skullclamp, but on second thought it does seem somewhat interesting. I guess it's main use will be sacking your entire board in response to a board wipe and achieve a similar effect as a Minions' Murmurs. It does provide some additional value as well. Might be worth trying.
When it comes to one sided board wipes I prefer Fire Covenant and Phyrexian Purge before considering Winds of Abandon. Sure, they demand life but at least they wouldn't ramp my opponents.
This deck will often have a difficult time removing artifacts and enchantments since it doesn't pack much removal to begin with. Best suggestion is to run fast flexible removal like Anguished Unmaking and the new Generous Gift.
@NZB2323: I have no idea if Winds of abandon is of any use but I'm just going to try it out as I do sometimes want a one sided board wipe. I'm wondering how you deal with stuff like moat, Dueling Grounds, Propaganda, Spike Weaver or similar effects. I do feel like there are some permanents that we have to have an answer for….
I think Yawgmoth, Thran Physician has potential in this deck. Edgar produces tons of tokens to feed -1 life ability gaining us card draw and removing potential threats all at the same time. The proliferate ability is more niche but nice when your vamps have +1/+1 counters on them
My first thought was that it's worse than Skullclamp, but on second thought it does seem somewhat interesting. I guess it's main use will be sacking your entire board in response to a board wipe and achieve a similar effect as a Minions' Murmurs. It does provide some additional value as well. Might be worth trying.
If you kill a player all their permanents leave the battlefield. I think it’s better to go after players, especially since if you know what kind of deck they’re playing, you can kill them before they set up a pillowfort. Playing removal makes it much harder to be aggressive and carry out our game plan. When I first played this deck I played all sorts of removal, like:
And the result is the deck was worse, because instead of carrying out my game plan I was holding up removal. Now we have evens more choices in Winds of abandon, Despark, and Generous Gift. We don’t have counterspells snd we’re not playing a death and taxes/hatebear deck so we can’t have answers to everything. Captivating Vampire and Goblin Bombardment are amazing pieces of removal. Maybe I could afford to run 1 Anguished Unmaking.
What do you guys think of Charming Vampire? He only cost 2 mana and buffs our board, but seems like more of a control/long game card. Still, he has amazing synergy with:
It's obvious that wizards is promoting aristocrats vampires with yet another good aristocrats vampire, Charming Vampire. Unfortunately we aren’t (yet) an aristocrats decks and we (or at leas I) are not running enough sac outlets to consistently have one in play. Without a sac outlet he's just mediocre at best. It's also cool that it does trigger on your opponents creatures dying, but we can't abuse this either unfortunately. I think he still is better than some of our other two drops though so looks like in for now.
Regarding removal package I can't completely ignore what my opponents are doing because then they either combo out or start hitting me with huge creatures. There are often game moments that I'm hoping to topdeck a removal spells so I devoted 4 slots to removal. I'm currently running:
Ragarding gruesome fate:
I have not tested this. I do believed there was also a red 3 mana sorcery with a similar effect but I can't find it at the moment (it was either for creatures of number of vampires or something). There is also Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
The problem I have with these cards is that they are only good when we have a good board state and don't do anything for us when we are behind (and therefore are 'win more'). Further a card like Price of Progress will most of the time deal more damage for less mana at instant speed and regardless of board state.
We have some differing opinions. Testing a banned commander in a 1v1 format is not relevant for what cards should or shouldn't be included in a multiplayer deck. The game, especially as an aggro deck, is vastly different in a multiplayer format.
My main issue with Throne of the God Pharoah is not creatures on the board, it's boardwipes.
In regards to bombardment, I'm a big fan of the card. I'm currently still playing mimic but it's at the front of my cut list. Throne of the God Pharaoh and Impact Tremors have been cut quite a while ago. Goblin Bombardment is way better than those cards. It's a sac outlet, that finishes games, is a good political tool (if you board wipe me, il point all this damage at you), is great against our main problem cards (cyclonic rift and terminus) and can be played both early and late. And it multiplies our blood artist effects and aims them at the most relevant players (I kill you in response to your spell, so it doesn't resolve). In an scenario where you draw your cards in the optimal order and our opponents do nothing to interact with you, yes there are better mathematical options. But in a Multiplayer scenario with people trying to stop what your doing, bombardment wins you more games.
I do agree with you on Mirror Entity, if people don't remove it, you typically KO atleast one person out of the game the next turn. Sol Ring is interesting, I do agree it's probaly good enough for this deck. The acceleration to play your Sanctum Seeker, Champion of Dusk and that sort of stuff is good enough I think for it to replace a land.
Bolas's Citadel has been awesome for me once again. Viscera Seer or Necropotence + Citadel is just an instant win. And otherwise you both ramp and draw cards and the 10 life drain has been relevant quite a bit as well. So I would really recommend it even though it's at the top of our curve.
I'm going to try Possibility Storm, Springleaf Drum and Mass Hysteria soon.
The whole Gate to the Afterlife thing was a bad idea and I'm cutting it.
A friend of my playgroup just wanted to test his deck against my vampires and we played 10-15 games or so.
I agree with you that 1v1 is a different format, but we can still learn things from this, even playing just by yourself can be useful.
If cards like Bolas's Citadel have any potential can be tested as well in a 1v1 environment as in multiplayer I'd say.....
I don't see why Throne of the God Pharaoh or Impact Tremors are bad against wipes though.
I do agree that mimic is one of the cards that might be cut. As is impact tremors but I just don't have enough test results with him.
Throne has been too good for me.
Throne of the God-Pharaoh the reason I don't like it is that I compare it to other cards like say Sanctum Seeker, Brutal Hordechief, and or Mardu Ascendancy. All three of these care about having a number of attackers and evasion makes them better. I don't think there is any argument here that the throne is like 1/3 as good as Sanctum Seeker but thats not really a reason to say its not playable. I don't like it because of how much more situational it is than the others and that you need creatures and a way for them to survive combat. It does essentially nothing if you can't make profitable attacks and have a number of creatures afterwards. In that sense, it feels winmore to me in that it needs more setup than a lot of other cards.
Impact Tremors - I like the card but its a card that in my mind needs to stick multiple turns to make it worthwhile. That or you need to draw it as you draw a bunch of cards and proceed to cast a bunch of others. I can't tell you how many games I curved it in and it didn't survive the turn. Its a card that draws a lot of attention to itself and the payoff for it is generally if it lives 2-3+ turns. I just had too many games where it didn't survive when I played it and I don't like that it needs to be curved in before we dump our hand. It isn't going to be a good topdeck card if we don't have draw going and it does slow us down to some extent to curve it in an opener. I like Purphoros because I am more than willing to pay twice the mana for twice the effect and his anthem effect could be useful if drawing dead (I will admit to having never used it though). Being indestructible also helps him survive in places where Impact Tremors might not. Ultimately, I felt that the payoff for Impact Tremors was not enough on the frontside of casting it. It felt to me like it was a card that needed to survive multiple turns while being a big red flag to everyone at the game that perhaps it should die. I am a big fan of getting my value upfront for this type of deck and I just saw too much of the value spaced out for this card for my liking. Impact Tremors is a card where you need to cast it before putting a horde of creatures into play and I found that the timing that I was trying to get it in play as well as how long it needed to survive weren't adding up in my favor. It might be half of Purphoros but I was seeing less than 1/3 the value from it due to how it is easier to remove. Nobody wants to let you have Purphoros but the indestructible can and often is what lets him stick to the board.
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[Modern] Allies
I guess I'm just lucky with my meta as I can generally swing in with my team and only lose one or maybe two vamps. Therefore I'm quite happy when I draw throne and I'd even value him at 50% of Sanctum. But this is obviously due to my meta.
Impact Tremors: You are quite right about this card, it’s not the best at turn two, we rather want to play it after a board wipe. However this card becomes good only after having played 3 or 4 vampires (whereas purphoros would only need 2 vamps played). In ideal case we have 4 one mana vampires and then tremors is very good, however most often we will not and will need multiple turns. This card might be to slow for Edgar and I'll switch it for bombardment for now.
1. Cavern of Souls: has this helped enough to justify causing casting problems for noncreatures, particularly necropotence? Also nonbos with filterlands. Any reason not to run unclaimed territory too then?
2. Vault of the Archangel: how often do you use this? For me its been nonbasic wastes thats occasionally a combat threat, since I have not once used it.
3. Rugged Prairie: since the deck is so heavily black, does the nonblack fixing justify the downsides (may force you to filter a black source into a nonblack one, colorless sometimes, nonbasic)
4. Why mana confluence but no city of brass? Worried about drawing both sometimes?
5. Bond land cycle (tapped unless 2+ opponents): would you recommend despite them being bad in 1v1 and sometimes lategame?
6. Prismatic Vista from modern horizons: swamp is better 80% of the time but that 20% could make a huge difference. Autoinclude?
7. Modern horizons cantrip cycle (horizon canopies for enemy color pairs): Very torn on this. The mana ability alone is awful. We don’t run painlands for similar reasons. Is the cantrip ability worth the pain? I think probably not in this deck because we could use that life to dig several cards deeper with suicide draw.
I haven't really done an audit on the landbase in some time so its possible my landbase could be tuned up from where it is right now.
Cavern vs Unclaimed - I think both are playable and fine. I mostly have not had issues with them. They are really good fixing and while its true that it can't help towards Necropotence the same could be said about any of the lands in the deck that don't produce black naturally. It fixes nicely in able to cast any type of creatures in the first few turns. I honestly haven't found the uncounterable to be crucial yet in part because my meta doesn't run a lot of counter magic but in being slightly more optimal and because I own 6 caverns I included one here. I think its probably fine to run both of these lands or substitute and just run Unclaimed Territory in a pinch. It could bite you in the ass but I also don't always have Necropotence openers either.
Vault of the Archangel - it really has not come up much for me. I still include it because the chance of me needing it in the mid game as an evasion / trade enabler seems solid still even though it could give me issues in my opener. Its not something I would be overly upset if I were to cut it but I also think the mid / late game use of it could be important sometime which is why I have kept it so far. Its definitely a big of a give and take but I really can't think of a time I have activated it.
Rugged Prairie - I can't remember if I am actually running it in my paper list or not. Like I said the landbase hasn't been audited in some time which makes it a little harder for me to say if its 100% accurate with what I run. You are correct in that it can be a little awkward in that it doesn't produce black mana but its fixing for nonblack can also be relevant. I can't say for certain if its still in my list or not but I think it could go either direction without there being a definite right answer on to run it or not.
Mana Confluence - You could run City of Brass as well. Technically Confluence is very very minorly stronger in that if an Urborg is in play you don't have to pay life to make black mana with Confluence but you do with City. You should due to this run Confluence over City if you want to be optimal but you can also run both if you want. I find these lands to be a pain to track though and the landbase is fairly good already which is why I don't have both. If you want to value fixing and don't mind tracking and losing a little life then yes it is a little more optimal to run both.
Battlebond Lands - My honest opinion of them is that they are fine if you are running a budget or exactly a two color deck that can run them. I don't think they generally are strong enough to out hedge the cycles of lands you want to run in a 3+ color deck assuming you are talking optimal landbases full of fetchlands / ABU duals / Shocks / the whole nine yards of lands. I would generally consider them to be at a similar level as the Dragonskull Summit cycle so if you are considering that cycle of lands then I think its about similar to that for playability.
Prismatic Vista I am sure I will find room for it somewhere. Its worth mentioning that you don't want to end up with too low of a basic count though and my current count looks to be 6 so I can't say for sure that it would replace a basic just due to concerns of having some basics. Its something I will have to test though so it might come in for a basic swamp and see if I notice an issue with that or not.
Silent Clearing / Sunbaked Canyon - I am sure I will try them out. Adding a cantrip option to them does help a lot. Its possible I might even up my land count by some amount (maybe like one more lands total for both) to include them in that they can fix the issue of flooding lands. I mostly don't run painlands just because I don't need to but the utility of sacing a land to cantrip is good. The pain in the ass is that I expect all of them to likely be $30+ so it adds yet more money to a landbase. Well, I guess I already ordered two boxes so lets hope they are good.
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[Modern] Allies
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
It could work but I think it has the same issue that a lot of non vamp anthems have. The protection that it lends could be nice but its unlikely that we could actively protect more than like one target at a time as keeping up multiple mana to try to keep a board wipe from wrecking us sounds hard. Maybe it could protect a key vampire though but overall I think it has a lot of competition for similar potential buffs. Judith, the Scourge Diva is a card I would maybe hold in similar regard for this deck even though its not exactly the same setup in a lot of cases you could weigh the pros and cons of the two cards to be relevant in different situations.
Its not to say that Etchings couldn't work, I just think that its not as natural of a shoe in maybe. There are some other cards that could be weighed similarly close with slightly different uses. This deck doesn't naturally play well towards keeping mana up for abilities and thats where I am coming from here. Even actively trying to keep up one activation might completely change what you play and how quickly you move your hand with this deck. I would normally consider this deck to be a tap out sort of deck.
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[Modern] Allies
Silent Clearing is in for sure as well!
Sunbaked Canyon I don't think this will make a huge difference for the deck. I'm just not a fan of lands that don't produce black but it'll probably be fine if you have one. If it's going to be 30 euro's I don't think I'll get one though.
Prismatic Vista, we are a three color deck, but I just don't see any situation where I'd like to go get a mountain or plains. (except if there's like a blood moon in play but yeah....). When I have a plains or mountain in my opening hand it always feels bad. It's probably fine though, but not a significant improvement for Edgar.
Etchings of the Chosen I don’t think I'll try this for the reasons mentioned by ISBPathfinder. I've tested a lot of anthem effects and they just don't work. Same for effects that require you to keep mana up. Force of Virtue does have some appeal. Unfortunately we probably don't have enough white and I’m not entirely sure that exiling a card is worth it's effect...... a 'free' anthem effect however is something I’d be willing to try out.
Regarding Vault of the Archangel I've found that it comes up like in one out of 20-30 games where it's useful. It's fine but not really significant. It's just useful enough to include for me though, since I don't know any other colorless sources that are useful to us. I'm currently trying out ancient tomb in its place. Can't evaluate this change though.
I don't own any Battlebond Lands so I can't really give an opinion on those. But then again you didn't ask for my opinion in the first place
Anyway really nice set so far, and two cards that I’m really really happy with!
Yea I agree Changeling Outcast seems like an easy shoe in. There are a few one drops that don't do anything other than be a one drop so it easily comes in for one of them assuming we don't want more one drops. I will probably just insert it for a one drop and call it good.
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[Modern] Allies
Edit:
From the two drop I consider these good enough:
Dusk Legion Zealot -> drawing a card is worth the second mana
Cruel Celebrant -> because of wraths, and because pings all opponents
Legion Lieutenant -> lord is worth the second mana (even third mana I guess)
The two drops i'm not sure about if they are worth the extra mana:
Bloodghast -> I changed my mind about him after clamping him 5 times in one game (mainly due to fetches). But games without clamp it didn't feel worth the second mana.
Olivia's Bloodsworn -> I used to find the haste very useful but since dropping the curve I often don't have one red to spare. Therefore mainly good because of flying, and could maybe be replaced by a one drop with flying.
Blood Artist -> If a board wipe happens with 8 + vampires it deals 8 dmg to one player, that's ok but nothing special in my opinion. Also because it has 0 toughness and no evasion most of the time it's not attacking itself.
Then the two drop that probably in my opinion are not be worth the extra mana:
Bloodthrone Vampire -> I guess only played because of the Zulaports? can be used as a combat trick... but I don't know, on it's own it's nothing special.
Stromkirk Condemned -> it's a semi lord but definatly the worst we have. Also 2 drops that don't require two colored mana go better with sol ring and mana crypt
Tithe Drinker -> yeah well... this just isn’t our best two drop…
Vampire Interloper -> see Olivia’s and its worse.
Blood Seeker is probably great in the right meta, but is not in mine. If it's good it's worth the second mana though.
Dark Confidant
Zulaport Cutthroat
Arn't vampires but support cards so I'll leave them out of the discusion.
I agree that more one drops should always be our objective with this build. I generally don't make changes until I see a whole set since I can't get my hands on the cards yet anyways but I will keep it in mind when I do make adds.
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[Modern] Allies
In my own list I would say Blood Seeker or Tithe Drinker would be the next ones I would look at cutting. Blood Seeker can be strong but its very situational on what your opponent is doing. If they are a token deck it might do real work but in a lot of cases its a non evasive vamp that applies low pressure and is worse the later its drawn. Tithe Drinker is kind of the inverse in that it gets better the later we draw it as far as we will have more mana to pay for extort but its very mana intensive for what it does and extorting is usually worse than playing more threats and cards so its not exactly good alongside good draw.
I would probably say I would cut Tithe Drinker next given that I don't really feel that the extort on it is very relevant for this deck and it lacks evasion or good stats. I am still kind of ok with an early game Blood Seeker but I don't feel like I am really every happy to see Tithe Drinker.
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[Modern] Allies
It's good, but are you gonna use it against a mono-colored token deck?
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Is it really better than Kindred Dominance?
For Changeling Outcast we still get the vampire token upon cast, right?
I run a somewhat budget list. Would Adanto Vanguard or Asylum Visitor be a better cut?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Short answer: Yes
Long answer:
I assume you’re going to cast a board wipe in one of three situations:
1. One player is so far ahead that a board wipe is needed or people start dying.
2. You are so far behind compared to the rest of the board that a board wipe is needed.
3. Wiping the board can win you the game or at least take out another player
In situation one, I can assume that they probably don’t have a filled hand because everything is in play so giving them mana isn’t the worst (mono tokens is something like krenko I guess? Probably not that much card advantage there). If they do have a huge hand size and their board is significantly better…. Well what are you going to do than anyway?
Situation two: we probably rather have a wrath here. But in 90% of the time we don’t want to cast a wrath due to our own board state. Situation tree: If you’re taking them out who cares if they get land?
Winds of Abandon vs Kindred Dominance:
Exiling provides an answer to recursion effects, something which is quite common in EDH in my opinion. It also answers: Indestructable, Regerate, Totem armors, Go to the graveyard triggers. Though these are less common it’s nice to have an answer to it if needed.
But I guess the main reasons winds will be better than kindred is that, at worst, it will be an expensive Path to Exile. Therefore it’s never dead in hand while kindred can be. Also 7 mana cards are in my opinion not really playable with a 33-34 land manabase. Even the 6 is probably going to be a problem.
Of course playing against a mono colored deck probably gives them all their basics in play, so it’s definitely something you have to be careful about when casting this card. In most cases It’s probably OK giving them lands. path to exile is a good card so I’m assuming that this card will be quite good too. I do see your angle though and I’m just going to have to test this card out. I’m not stating that it’s an auto include, it just looks like an interesting card for edger to test out.
Yes we do.
I’ve run both and these are my thoughts about them:
I guess their biggest upside is the 3 power. They add the same amount of pressure on the board as two one drops (4 power total) if not including any anthem effects. For this reasons it feels quite okay to be casting these on turn two compared to some of the other 2 drops.
Their biggest downside is that they are sort of just ’vanilla’ creatures in that their effect is not all that relevant.
Adanto Vanguard has a build in Reconnaissance and anti-wipe effect. It’s also an excellent blocker and I never felt bad drawing or playing this card. Paying 4 life is rather hard with all the other effects that cost life in the deck though.
Asylum Visitor’s effect just isn’t that likely to be activated. If it would draw us a single card guaranteed that I’d play it for sure and it would even be worth the second mana. If it would draw us a card every turn It might have been the best two drop we would have. As is, I think I had in in play for 10 times and only once got a card out of it because my own hand was empty.
In my opinion both could be replaced by one drops. In the tier list I posed I’d put them in the bottom tier. I personally would cut Asylum Visitor first. I think Adanto isn’t worse or better than the other cards in the bottom tier.
I think in general we don’t want to run removal, even though we have access to some of the best removal in the format. We want to be the proactive deck and kill people before they get going. Goblin bombardment and Captivating vampire are really the only pieces of “removal” that I run.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
My first thought was that it's worse than Skullclamp, but on second thought it does seem somewhat interesting. I guess it's main use will be sacking your entire board in response to a board wipe and achieve a similar effect as a Minions' Murmurs. It does provide some additional value as well. Might be worth trying.
When it comes to one sided board wipes I prefer Fire Covenant and Phyrexian Purge before considering Winds of Abandon. Sure, they demand life but at least they wouldn't ramp my opponents.
This deck will often have a difficult time removing artifacts and enchantments since it doesn't pack much removal to begin with. Best suggestion is to run fast flexible removal like Anguished Unmaking and the new Generous Gift.
Eldrazi Monument is the best answer to moat.
These cards are my answer to a pillowfort:
- Goblin bombardment
- Impact tremors
- Blood artist
- Cruel celebrant
- Zulaport Cutthroat
- Vindictive vampire
- Purphurous, God of the Forge
- Malakir Bloodwitch
.If you kill a player all their permanents leave the battlefield. I think it’s better to go after players, especially since if you know what kind of deck they’re playing, you can kill them before they set up a pillowfort. Playing removal makes it much harder to be aggressive and carry out our game plan. When I first played this deck I played all sorts of removal, like:
And the result is the deck was worse, because instead of carrying out my game plan I was holding up removal. Now we have evens more choices in Winds of abandon, Despark, and Generous Gift. We don’t have counterspells snd we’re not playing a death and taxes/hatebear deck so we can’t have answers to everything. Captivating Vampire and Goblin Bombardment are amazing pieces of removal. Maybe I could afford to run 1 Anguished Unmaking.
What do you guys think of Charming Vampire? He only cost 2 mana and buffs our board, but seems like more of a control/long game card. Still, he has amazing synergy with:
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Unrelated note, does anyone have experience/opinions on gruesome fate?
EDIT: universal automaton should be an auto-include in this list
Hall of heliod's generosity is interesting. We can afford to run one colorless land and recurring necro and animosity does seem useful. At least more so then Vault of the Archangel.
Regarding removal package I can't completely ignore what my opponents are doing because then they either combo out or start hitting me with huge creatures. There are often game moments that I'm hoping to topdeck a removal spells so I devoted 4 slots to removal. I'm currently running:
Path to exile
Swords to plowshares
Anguished Unmaking
Wear//tear
Fire Covenant is on my want list and I have had some good experience with collective effort in Edgar.
Ragarding gruesome fate:
I have not tested this. I do believed there was also a red 3 mana sorcery with a similar effect but I can't find it at the moment (it was either for creatures of number of vampires or something). There is also Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
The problem I have with these cards is that they are only good when we have a good board state and don't do anything for us when we are behind (and therefore are 'win more'). Further a card like Price of Progress will most of the time deal more damage for less mana at instant speed and regardless of board state.