Not necessarily, it does cost one more mana. Costing more mana is kind of a big deal in this deck but I could see room to argue between the two though. Murmurs also does count non vampires for whatever that is worth.
I guess I can see how others feel about the change and or what feedback they have on my change.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I was starting on writing a primer about Edgar on Tappedout and then I found this thread.
Seeing this is a quite active topic this seems a great place to have some discussion about Edgar!
I didn't read through all 14 pages of posts so I’m bound to make some suggestions that already have been discussed, but I hope there is still some suggestions that are useful here.
Like you I arrived at the conclusion that cheaper creatures are better. Edgar is amazing at building a significant board presence when supported by one and two drop vampires. This deck is quick and aggressive. It's aim is to deal 120 damage as quickly as possible. Protecting creatures in nonsense and we just rebuild our board with raw drawing power. In evaluating cards for Edgar I have two criteria: How much damage does it deal or how much cards do it draws us.
Regarding your question about Champion of Dusk vs Minions’ Murmurs: Run both.
I feel the decks biggest problem is board wipes and from my experience card draw is the best way to combat it.
Unless you feel there is too much card draw in your deck already?
If I'd have to choose I'd go for champion because it always at least draws two cards.
The life loss from these drawing effects can be hard on Edgar though. I generally don't mind that I have to discard a few cards from overdrawing, i get to keep the best of them anyway, but the life loss can hurt. I'm considering stocking up on lifelinking vampires to compensate for this. A big hit with a few lifelinking creatures and coat of arms or Shared Animosity in play can help a lot.
I recently added dark ritual and culling the weak and I’m absolutely loving them. I'd highly recommend you add them to your deck.
Mainly I use them to get Edgar into play early. However they are also great in powering out one of the big draw spells or coat of arms.
And, when drawing 8 or so cards they are very useful to be able to play some of the drawn cards that same turn.
I'm currently testing mana vault for these same reasons but can't confirm its use yet.
Maybe you could cut Mox Diamond since your only running 34 lands?
Further I’d like to suggest a few cards that hit all players and can deal tons of dammage. impact tremors. Maybe swap for Goblin Bombardment? throne of the God-Pharaoh. Doesn't work very well with your Reconnaissance but I’d take it over reconnaissance anyway. price of progress. It hits us hard too, but if we are the lowest life total on the board then we did something wrong.
All three of these can deal 10+ dmg to each opponent. Granted they are conditional in that they have to be played at the right time in the rite board state. But when they do they can be crucial to secure a win. If not at the right time then you can mostly still get 6 points of dmg out of them (making 18 total).
Two more permanents that have been good for me: coat of arms. I don't see this in your list and I'm really wondering why? My playgroup kills this thing on sight because otherwise it's game over. If it's the high mana cost, you're running Austere CommandLiliana, Dreadhorde General, Malakir Bloodwitch and Ad Nauseam, so 5 mana shouldn't be that big of a problem. This card has won me so many games, the only reason I would see not to run it is your meta is all goblins and elves.
The other card is mass hysteria. This build is all about speed and this card helps getting fast damage.
I'm sure you checked every vampire available and have made a good selection, so I would like to hear why you choose not to run these: Mirror Entity. Is a vampire and can single handedly make you team a huge thread. If you’re stuck at two or three mana this might not be the best card, but at 4-6 mana it’s a beast. Has won me games. Adanto Vanguard. Survives board wipes and as a 3/1 is quite decently bodied at that. Vampire Nocturnus. I still have to acquire this one but +2/+1 and evasion for the whole team?
And some the less good but still playable vamps: Kalastria Highborn. Also yet to acquirebut looks very good for a 2 drop, especially with some sac outlets, keeping mana up for a board wipe probably won’t happen anyway. Forerunner of the legion. In addition to vampire tutor +2/+2 for every vamp you cast. Falkenrath Gorger could be played over Vampire Lacerator Stromkirk Condemned its semi lord and with the huge amount of card draws in the deck the discard option is actually quite playable. Vampire Hexmagekills walkers. falkenrath exterminator, mainly play it because it grows. Can sometimes kill a creature. Twilight Prophet. Drawing cards on a vamp. Ping everyone at the same time. Though I’ve noticed it becomes a bit less useful with the low mana curve.
Some cards I’ve tested and cut from your deck are: Obelisk of Urd. Tapping vampires and not attacking is not something I want to do. Any team boosting I want in Edgar has to be able to get out of hand and or be a vampire. Static effects on artifacts or enchantments don't cut it for me. . I prefer to run coat of arms. Other than that I have Edgar for the pumps. Goblin Bombardment can't deal enough dmg to warrant a spot. If it would deal dmg to all opponents I’d run it, as is there are cards that can deal more dmg that I can run. Iroas, God of Victory. Its abilities are quite good but this card doesn’t change the board state enough to warrant a sport for me. It ended up sitting in my hand and I preferred to cast other cards instead because I could deal more damage that way. I haven't tried Goblin War Drums yet but I imagine I would feel pretty similar about this. Dark Confidant. In this deck I want my draw spells to draw me lots of cards. If it would stay in play for 6 turns I’d play it. But it usually doesn't.
Lastly I run a completely different removal suite compared to you. But I guess removal is meta dependent anyway. So I won’t go in to detail about it in this post.
I was starting on writing a primer about Edgar on Tappedout and then I found this thread.
Like you I arrived at the conclusion that cheaper creatures are better.
Seeing you’re still quite active here this seems a great place to have some discussion about Edgar!
I didn't read through all 14 pages of posts so I’m bound to make some suggestions that already have been discussed, but I hope there is still some suggestions that are useful here.
Regarding your question about Champion of Dusk vs Minions’ Murmurs: Run both.
I feel the decks biggest problem is board wipes and from my experience card draw is the best way to combat it.
Unless you feel there is too much card draw in your deck already?
If I'd have to choose I'd go for champion because it always at least draws two cards.
I recently added dark ritual and culling the weak and I’m absolutely loving them. I'd highly recommend you add them to your deck.
Mainly I use them to get Edgar into play early. However they are also great in powering out one of the big draw spells or coat of arms.
And, when drawing 8 or so cards they are very useful to be able to play some of the drawn cards that same turn.
I'm currently testing mana vault for these same reasons but can't confirm its use yet.
Maybe you could cut Mox Diamond since your only running 34 lands?
Two more permanents that have been good for me: coat of arms, I’ve seen this has been suggested before and dismissed due to his high mana cost?
Since your running Austere CommandLiliana, Dreadhorde GeneralMalakir Bloodwitch and Ad Nauseam I think 5 mana shouldn't be that big of a problem. This card has won me many games and the only reason I would see not to run it is your meta is full with goblins and elves decks. Mass Hysteria sometimes helped me in crucial spots where I needed my creatures to have haste. Is debatable though.
On to some vampires then!
I'm sure you checked every vampire available and have made a good selection, so I would like to hear why you choose not to run these: Mirror Entity. Is a vampire and can single handedly make you team a huge thread. If you’re usually stuck at two or three mana this might not be the best card, but at 4-6 mana it’s a beast. Has won me games. Forerunner of the legion. In addition to vampire tutor +2/+2 for every vamp you cast. Adanto Vanguard. Can survive board wipes and as a 3/1 is quite decently bodied at that. Vampire Nocturnus. I still have to acquire this one but +2/+1 and evasion for the whole team? Kalastria Highborn. Also not yet in position but looks very good for a 2 drop, especially with some sac outlets, keeping mana up for a board wipe probably won’t happen anyway.
And some the less good but still playable vamps: Falkenrath Gorger could be played over Vampire Lacerator Stormkirk Condemned its semi lord and with the huge amount of card draws in the deck the discard option is actually quite playable. Vampire Hexmagekills walkers. falkenrath extermintor, mainly play it because it grows. Can sometimes kill a creature. Twilight Prophet. Drawing cards on a vamp. Ping everyone at the same time. Though I’ve noticed it becomes a bit less useful with the low mana curve.
Some cards I’ve tested and cut from your deck are: Obelisk of Urd. Tapping vampires and not attacking is not something I want to do. Any boosting enchanment/artifact I want to play has to be able to get out of hand or I end up cutting it most of the time. I therefore prefer coat of arms. Goblin Bombardment yes it gets u some use when a board wipe happens but it can only deal one dmg to one target per vamp. There are situations where it can deal the last few points of dmg but I ended up cutting it. Iroas, God of Victory. Its abilities are quite good, but at 4 mana I prefer to cast something else. Mostly your creatures have evation or there are so many that they can’t all be blocked. Anyway most of the time this card ended up sitting in my hand and I always preferred to cast other cards instead. I haven't tried Goblin War Drums yet but I imagine I would feel pretty similar about this. Dark Confidant. In this deck I want my draw spells to draw me lots of cards. If it would stay in play for 6 turns I’d play it. But it usually doesn't.
Lastly I run a completely different removal suite compared to you. But I guess removal is meta dependent anyway. So I won’t go in to detail about it in this post.
Welcome to salvation. I do my best to work through what to run and why to run it so I won't say my list is anywhere near perfect as it really isn't. Every meta is different and that can adjust a lot of things that we should run and what kind of evasions, answers, and draw / sustain we run as well. I think its more important to discuss why cards are or are not good and where their flaws might be. I think there are a TON of viable support cards beyond the vampires of this deck and many of them are totally fine to run. I base a lot of my own decisions around the meta I can see and how I can test but I also think its very important with a deck like this to build arround immediate results. It often takes a lot of cards and or bodies to accomplish the things we want to do so a lot of my own personal preferences are asking what the immediate impact of a situation is rather than how good something would be if it sticks for several turns. This kind of deck tends to play a little arch enemy in that many people will try to remove us and or slow us down. My own current meta is one where players play a lot of token based tactics as well as a lot of tactics that win suddenly from nowhere but not to the point of being consistant combo decks. I think this is relevant info to give as to where I am and where I come from.
Champion of Dusk vs Minions' Murmurs - I had both in but I also think that there are new cards that act as draw that can in some ways function similarly. I can always revert if my changes don't work out but I am opposed to continuously adding 4-6 mana draw cards to the deck while bringing the curve up. There is an advantage in keeping one in the deck and diversifying and that comes to tutors. If I have a tutor the redundancy of having both of these isn't really great but keeping one and having a unique removal / draw effect like liliana gives diversity to those tutors. Its a big reason that I did push to include Austere Command in my list as well because even just having that one single wrath in my deck gives me a toolbox of options if I draw a tutor. There is also legitimate reason to say Minions over Champion and that is the lower cost and ability to cast more things after doing it. I am not really sold one way or the other on which should stay if I am only making and keeping room for one but if I am trying to make room for a new 6 mana answer / draw outlet my natural instinct is to look at another higher cost card as the thing to cut.
Dark Ritual and Culling the Weak tempo ramp is always a pro and a con. Its a burst of mana at the cost of card economy so the question is if you can make the best of it. I will be honest that I really had not put much thought into Culling the Weak but the thought of a 3 mana Edgar is appealing. Dark Ritual is a little harder in my mind because the bump in mana seems a lot more specific in when you want to draw it since it is only good for that one turn. Mana Vault seems like you are putting a lot more priority behind getting Edgar into play than I do personally but I can see what you are doing there. I actually have a lot of games that I never cast or need edgar so I put a little more priority in playing out my hand and finding a way to vomit resources than I do in focusing Edgar specifically. The Moxes have worked out quite well for me but I have heard mixed reviews from others.
Impact Tremors vs Goblin Bombardment I ran Impact Tremmors a while back. I cut it because it would slow down and be slow and vulnerable in my opening hands. The ideal turn progression would be to turn 2 it and then cast 1-3 creatures the following turn likely being more like 1-2 creatures the turn after. In some ways it dissuaded me from playing my 1 drop on one as well in that case though and it forfeits several attacks in that you don't have a 2 drop turn. Keep in mind this is the optimal play not mentioning those times where you are running low on draw and topdeck it without a hand. For me it was slow to give returns in a lot of cases and it just didn't have enough immediate impact in that probably the best actual times I would have with it were mid game turns with high draw where I would get it plus cheap vampires. I like Goblin Bombardment because I can control the board with it and play it afterwards with good returns. Impact Tremors is a card that needs to be dropped during critical turn that we often have things we want to do and then live or be drawn when we are already in a good situation mid game with good draw. I felt it was slow to give me returns and the time in which it wanted me to play it lead me to have less aggressive opening turns with more diversity of targets for opponents. Goblin Bombardment has a lot more times that it will perform for me while it does less damage it is a card that encourages playing it in more ideal turns than impact tremmors does in that I can drop it after having a board in play. I also can think of a number of times where I played early Impact Tremmors and it didn't survive the turn rotation which feels kind of bad. Goblin Bombardment just has more immediate impact and can be played after you set up and or after a problem is played to the board as a removal piece or flexable reach for players. The flexibility of when it is played and what it can target is why i moved to Goblin Bombardment.
Throne of the God-Pharaoh - when its great its great, when its not its completely nothing. In my mind its a winmore card that says you have a swarm of guys and a clear path to attack and not lose half your guys. I also happen to play against a decent number of token decks though so I might be weighing it more negatively due to that but its kind of winmore in that its only good in situations that you are already probably doing fairly good. If someone has nothing in play and you have 10 guys then sure its nice but weren't you already probably doing fine there? It doesn't keep our board alive to do the attacks for them to be tapped is kind of my issue.
Price of Progress - I think the effect is fine. I would maybe go one further though if you want to resort to things like that just go deep and maybe try out Manabarbs. I don't have an issue with this kind of tactic but its also an effect that really doesn't lend to us being in a better position if these cards are bad. My issue with these sort of cards would be if you draw some of them early on rather than when they are sweet clutch finishers. They don't impact the board at all shy of killing players so when they are good, yea they are great but when they aren't they don't do anything to get you into a better position which is why I don't run them. They feel great when they work but they do literally nothing until then.
Coat of Arms - I have seen it backfire too often. Its another one of those cards that when its great its really great but when its not you don't have a card in hand. Its 5 mana and very situational if you ask me. I can't tell you the number of times that a token deck has had just as many or more tokens than I do vampires. If I am going to pack a 5 mana anthem I want it to connect. The other issue is that a lot of vampires have no evasion so assuming it even works and you have big creatures they still have no evasion. I also think that tutors with a select few finishers is far more effective than it is to pack more finishers. I can use those tutors to go and get draw if I am not ready to close out the game. Coat of Arms doesn't give evasion and still has a lot of potential to backfire. Its an effect that usually doesn't kill the table so much as maybe one player in my experience. I could use a cheap tutor to go get / play Shared Animosity for the same mana but that tutor can be a number of other things too. I also think that Eldrazi Monument is better due to giving evasion and keeping our creatures alive but I don't run either because I think the deck is better without.
Mass Hysteria I don't know. It seems more like a reset after wrath kind of thing. Obviously there are times where you might field another number of bodies due to this that can attack but I just don't know how often I feel like that will come up.
Mirror Entity - He is incredibly slow to add up for the mana. To turn all of our vamps into 3/3s we are already at 6 mana the turn you play him. I don't run him because its a heavy telegraph at the next turn while making me feel weak to spot removal and sweepers in the meantime. If I have 6 mana I am more likely to play Edgar so he feels like a slow anthem to me. I would rather have the 3-4 mana lords I currently have for faster effect in a lot of cases. The ideal situations for Mirror Entity tend to be 7+ mana turns where you cast and activate him and I don't really want or need a 7 mana finisher. I could maybe compare him to Drana, Liberator of Malakir who is probably my slowest anthem effect in the deck. If I were to curve either of them into play though it would be very aggressive to give up my four mana turn to buff my creatures though where as Drana can add up when curved in without being mana intensive. In the most aggressive possible start of T1 one drop, T2 two one drops, T3 Mirror Entity it leaves us on T4 attacking for 32 which does sound kind of nice but thats also assuming nobody does anything in those first 4 turns as far as chump blockers or answers. Overall I like the faster effect of a lot of the others as well as the fire and forget rather than setting up for a big following turn that is heavily projected.
Forerunner of the Legion he is a topdeck tutoror rather than to hand. He just feels slow to me. If he cost 2, his pump was better, or his tutor was better I would totally run him. There are just a number of three and four drop vampires that I am not running and this guy was just a hair short of making the cut of good enough in my mind. I think its fine to run him but I also think its fine to not run him. I opted to pass on him myself.
Adanto Vanguard I think he is fine. He is more robust than aggressive in my mind which is why I opted more for the flying 2 drops. I could see him going in for Oathsworn Vampire which I have voiced some displeasure with. I don't really have strong feelings either way but yea I think its a fine vampire.
Vampire Nocturnus - I did the breakdown for him and I have 41 black cards in the deck. Its a little over 1/3 of the time that he would be active and I feel like any time I would play him and not have the black card on top would just be terrible. I would much rather commit to a known effect than flip a coin to see if I have a buff. I think the buff is really sick especially on a 4 mana vampire but what kills me is that there is a higher chance that it won't be active than it being active.
Kalastria Highborn - Essentially my issue with it is that I should never have a heap of mana up when someone wraths me with this deck. I also am not building so deeply into sac effects that I feel that I will reliably have one up nor do I think that I want to on average sac off a bunch of vampires to drain life. The triggered ability is expensive enough that it won't trigger very often and its actually not a very good body given that people will try to block and kill this one. If it had better stats / evasion or something I would include it but its not that impressive of a vampire on its own and when its ability is good tends to be when I am not doing well which probably means it won't get there.
Falkenrath Gorger - The only reason I give priority to the one drops that I do is that I gave priority to black in my landbase a little more. Its easier to fix and have black up on turn one or when casting a bunch of things. I think Fakenrath is fine but its easier to imbalance the landbase towards black a little rather than having an even spread and always having every color on turn one. Its not a big imbalance but I do feel that it helps me a little bit. I put a lot of priority into getting BBB up for Necropotence which tends to be a big tutor target so in the case wehre I have a fetchland that only fetches a mountain or plains I almost always pair it with the black dual in the early game to bring my black mana online first. Its not big but in cases where I get Windswept Heath for example I would much rather have the black one drop over a white or red one those creatures don't have really good stats / abilities / evasion. Falkenrath Gorger is a fine drop but the madness is almost nothing for this deck so its really more that its a 2/1 for one mana. I opted more for black one drops over red given that red tends to be my lowest priority color for this deck in that I rarely need it early.
Stromkirk Condemned - I go back and forth a bit on him. He seems really good if you can get a sustained draw engine in or just chain from draw to draw. I might have to just include him and see how he goes. I was hesitant last time he was brought up as well in that he feels less good if I don't have good draw going but I also don't have to use the anthem and it could be used as a combat trick if need be. Given the low cost and flexibility as well as how I have voiced displeasure with Oathsworn Vampire.... yea I suppose I should at least get and try out a copy.
Vampire Hexmage - We have a swarm of dudes who can kill walkers. Lots of walkers also come down and do their damage the turn they drop as well which makes this guy better at combating value over time walkers which you tend to see more in heavily defensive planeswalker decks which we are already going to have issues with. I think its fine to run him but I don't think its that aggressive and more of a niche answer to a specific problem you might have in a meta. I haven't had issues with walkers myself with this deck as I usually opt to pressure the player rather than the walker anyways with this deck. Its BB on a body that isn't that impressive so it takes more demanding mana upfront to play it and its body isn't that great for combat.
Falkenrath Exterminator - It has bad starting stats for the mana and no evasion making it feel like a bad draw off curve. I don't like it beyond turn two which is why I don't run it.
Twilight Prophet - Yea it came down to the low curve. Its really slow draw and it wasn't doing hardly any damage and the draw was just painfully slow when compared to Champion of Dusk or Minions' Murmurs. If it had a little better stats for the mana it would be different but I think it was intended to do more damage with its triggered ability than it does here.
Obelisk of Urd - I haven't had much chance to test it but the idea is that I could play new vampires for the turn and they cost reduce playing it. Those vampires normally don't have haste anyways so the things I was doing for my turn anyways will cost reduce this. I have not gotten to draw it in that I don't play this deck too often anymore due to it being a little aggressive for my meta. It is a six drop when it comes to Ad Nausium and others that count but I don't plan to pay six mana for it. If you ever do a big draw effect into this its likely you will be paying no mana for it as you dump a bunch of cheap vamps into play and that is why I included and am testing it. Like I said though, I really haven't drawn it yet so I don't have anything more than hypothetical for this one yet.
Iroas, God of Victory - I can't think of a time that I have been disappointed by him. He is robust and hard to remove plus he makes my creatures connect to players and not die in combat. I always have a ton of chaff vampires from Edgar that end up being killed in combat so he keeps them alive and gets them to connect. He also allows me to attack with utility vampires that I otherwise might not have risked in combat.
Dark Confidant - it depends on when I draw him but given how aggressive and fast this deck is I tend to make games kind of fast. On curve he is a slightly faster Phyrexian Arena who can attack. He is kind of fragile but with a lot of the evasion I run in here its not that uncommon he gets to attack someone. If I get 1-3 cards back from him I am generally happy. If I power draw into him I can always discard him. I wouldn't say he is huge by any means but if I get a few cards back from him I am generally quite happy with him.
I do want to test a few things out. I don't really know how these all will go over but I felt that they could be tested at the least.
DECK CHANGES:
Cover of Darkness -> Dolmen Gate I am not entirely sure on this one but I did encounter one situation against a black deck playing aristocrats / tokens that it really sucked drawing Cover. That might be a little narrow but I like that Dolmen Gate seems good against ETB creatures and tokens in that their creatures can block but will die potentially still while mine will not. I want to test it out at least but I could see it going either way between these two.
Oathsworn Vampire -> Stromkirk Condemned I wasn't really happy with Oathsworn Vampire which makes this swap easier for me. I am still not really sure on how often I will be happy with the buff anthem option of Stromkirk but I think its something I am willing to try out.
Sorry if that got long, I wanted to respond in depth of why.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
haha thanx for your long reply! you’re a hard man to convince though
I get it through after working on a deck for more than a year I don't take others opinions for granted either.
I guess the support cards really are meta dependent. I'm usually the only 'go wide' player at the table so maybe that's why these cards work for me. I must admit that therefore wrath's are my biggest problems (next to big flying things) and I evaluate cards accordingly. You are right that cards like Mass Hysteria and Impact Tremors are at their best when rebuilding.
Price of Progress just has a great mana/damage ratio. I guess you're running Serra Ascendant for similair reasons (doing dmg as quick as posible). Manabarbs unfortunately doesn't come close to PoP's potential though.
Regarding dark ritual and culling the weak. It's not their main use to get Edgar in play but they dos increase the accessibility to Edgar as an added bonus. With the insane card draw Edgar runs the loss of cards is neglectable and they just add a great amount of explosive capability to the deck. I'd really like to ask for your indulgence and add dark ritual and culling the weak to your deck next time you pick the deck up. Seeing how something works is always better then throwing around arguments for or against a card and I'm just convinced you're going to like them
There are two other cards on which you voiced your opinion that I can't let slip, Which are Mirror Entity and Dark Confidant.
Regarding Entity: Your arguments are all solid, but I regard this card as possibly the best three drop we have. Why? because it's the only three drop that can make our army a lethal force. Your calculation example is the exact reason I run him. He's the only three drop we have that can turn just two other vampires (and thus 3 tokens) into a significant force. Yes it's going to be the turn after we play him and yes it's likely to be removed in the meantime, but is this a bad thing? This card often forces people to wrath a turn earlier than they would otherwise do. I'd agree with an argument that this card is less good in a meta where spot removal is dominant. If wrath effect are dominant however........
Regarding Dark Confidant, I've read through a number of pages of this topic by now and I've more than once heard you voice your opinion that a two drop felt 'lackluster' on curve. I'd argue that this is the same for Confi as well. Further I'd consider Confi only better then sign in blood after three turns in play. Like you're saying, this list is so aggressive and so fast that I feel like cards that need to be in play for 3 turns might not be wat we want.
Anyway, really nice to have a discussion about Edgar. Your thread definitely made me look at a number of cards I’m running twice and make some minor adjustments to my deck! I really hope you’re willing to give the rituals a shot and report back your findings.
I liked it a lot, and when it was working, it was a lot of fun to play, but I think my meta runs too many board wipes, and has too many combo decks, or decks running dangerous cards that just shut this deck down.
With all the draw, coming back from 1 or 2 board wipes usually wasn't hard, but seeing 3, 4, or 5 was back breaking.
In too many games I'd have someone dead, or near dead, and then somebody would just combo off, and all the damage I put out would be irrelevant, or someone would have a few moderately-sized creatures out, drop a Craterhoof and trample over my guys.
I will say that, due to some of these issues, I found that having Haste for my team was very valuable, though I didn't get around to picking up a Mass Hysteria, and Fervor always felt a little slow at 3 mana.
I did win one game off of Impact Tremors.
Right now, I'm considering trying Edgar as a more controlling build with Grave Pact effects, and using his Eminence ability to provide a lot of bodies to sacrifice for value. This, largely because I have all these vampire sitting around doing nothing.
This is my current version of the deck. As you can see, it's way more budget than your version. So my manabase is worse, less tutors and no moxes/crypt. It's running pretty well these days, but it's very reliant on necropotencetymna the weaver and skullclamp.
Blue matchups with cyclonic rift are the worst matchup in my meta and I typically have to focus them or I lose in the late game, I'm running REB mostly to stop that cyclonic and blue combo decks. I'm trying to find room for shared animosity and bolas's citadel, which I think is actually better than Minion's Murmurs and Ad Nauseaum.
haha thanx for your long reply! you’re a hard man to convince though
I get it through after working on a deck for more than a year I don't take others opinions for granted either.
I guess the support cards really are meta dependent. I'm usually the only 'go wide' player at the table so maybe that's why these cards work for me. I must admit that therefore wrath's are my biggest problems (next to big flying things) and I evaluate cards accordingly. You are right that cards like Mass Hysteria and Impact Tremors are at their best when rebuilding.
Price of Progress just has a great mana/damage ratio. I guess you're running Serra Ascendant for similair reasons (doing dmg as quick as posible). Manabarbs unfortunately doesn't come close to PoP's potential though.
Regarding dark ritual and culling the weak. It's not their main use to get Edgar in play but they dos increase the accessibility to Edgar as an added bonus. With the insane card draw Edgar runs the loss of cards is neglectable and they just add a great amount of explosive capability to the deck. I'd really like to ask for your indulgence and add dark ritual and culling the weak to your deck next time you pick the deck up. Seeing how something works is always better then throwing around arguments for or against a card and I'm just convinced you're going to like them
There are two other cards on which you voiced your opinion that I can't let slip, Which are Mirror Entity and Dark Confidant.
Regarding Entity: Your arguments are all solid, but I regard this card as possibly the best three drop we have. Why? because it's the only three drop that can make our army a lethal force. Your calculation example is the exact reason I run him. He's the only three drop we have that can turn just two other vampires (and thus 3 tokens) into a significant force. Yes it's going to be the turn after we play him and yes it's likely to be removed in the meantime, but is this a bad thing? This card often forces people to wrath a turn earlier than they would otherwise do. I'd agree with an argument that this card is less good in a meta where spot removal is dominant. If wrath effect are dominant however........
Regarding Dark Confidant, I've read through a number of pages of this topic by now and I've more than once heard you voice your opinion that a two drop felt 'lackluster' on curve. I'd argue that this is the same for Confi as well. Further I'd consider Confi only better then sign in blood after three turns in play. Like you're saying, this list is so aggressive and so fast that I feel like cards that need to be in play for 3 turns might not be wat we want.
Anyway, really nice to have a discussion about Edgar. Your thread definitely made me look at a number of cards I’m running twice and make some minor adjustments to my deck! I really hope you’re willing to give the rituals a shot and report back your findings.
Sorry I am totally set in my ways and there was a time where I would play Edgar every week and sometimes multiple times a night. I have toned it way back in part because I might have burned my group out on edgar as well as the fact that I don't feel like I need nearly as much testing of the core of the deck as I once was looking to get. There are pros and cons to that as I have become set in my ways and the things I am comfortable with. I really wasn't ever looking to become a primer or the source for Edgar when I started I was just trying to point out that lower curves with high draw was the way to go.
With the number of new aristocrat vampires it might be a lot more viable to run heavier sac outlets in here than it did in the past. I really haven't done any work towards this so much as mentioning that the landscape for vampires has changed a lot in the year+ that Edgar has been out.
I will try to be better about testing new things. I think you have valid points on Mirror Entity / Bob and I do need to test some new things. Culling the Weak intrigues me as well so we will see what I can get around to for testing.
I liked it a lot, and when it was working, it was a lot of fun to play, but I think my meta runs too many board wipes, and has too many combo decks, or decks running dangerous cards that just shut this deck down.
With all the draw, coming back from 1 or 2 board wipes usually wasn't hard, but seeing 3, 4, or 5 was back breaking.
In too many games I'd have someone dead, or near dead, and then somebody would just combo off, and all the damage I put out would be irrelevant, or someone would have a few moderately-sized creatures out, drop a Craterhoof and trample over my guys.
I will say that, due to some of these issues, I found that having Haste for my team was very valuable, though I didn't get around to picking up a Mass Hysteria, and Fervor always felt a little slow at 3 mana.
I did win one game off of Impact Tremors.
Right now, I'm considering trying Edgar as a more controlling build with Grave Pact effects, and using his Eminence ability to provide a lot of bodies to sacrifice for value. This, largely because I have all these vampire sitting around doing nothing.
I have always had mixed feelings on Grave Pact but I do think that the aristocrats have gotten much better this year. If you are faced with a lot of board sweepers I do think there are ways to adapt and adjust for a deck like this but it will be challenging.
This is my current version of the deck. As you can see, it's way more budget than your version. So my manabase is worse, less tutors and no moxes/crypt. It's running pretty well these days, but it's very reliant on necropotencetymna the weaver and skullclamp.
Blue matchups with cyclonic rift are the worst matchup in my meta and I typically have to focus them or I lose in the late game, I'm running REB mostly to stop that cyclonic and blue combo decks. I'm trying to find room for shared animosity and bolas's citadel, which I think is actually better than Minion's Murmurs and Ad Nauseaum.
Given the amount of blood artists we now have access to, I think sac outlets are getting better for us.
Looking good, I like your creature heavy approach for the budget. I wonder if it might be better to have perhaps a little less removal and replace it with some more draw though potentially. I find that if I have really good card flow then I can rely less on having higher numbers for some effects.
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Long time lurker but big fan of all decks Mardu. Quick question, what's everyone's opinion on experimental frenzy in this deck?
I got curious about this card ever since bolas's citadel proved to be an absolute bomb every time it came into play, either as a finisher dumping a bunch of cheap vamps into the field and sacrificing them for that last 10 dmg or just allowing me to get back into the game after a wrath. I know experimental frenzy is not on that level but its cheaper to cast and allows us to use the top cards of our library as a resource when our hand is empty.
Long time lurker but big fan of all decks Mardu. Quick question, what's everyone's opinion on experimental frenzy in this deck?
I got curious about this card ever since bolas's citadel proved to be an absolute bomb every time it came into play, either as a finisher dumping a bunch of cheap vamps into the field and sacrificing them for that last 10 dmg or just allowing me to get back into the game after a wrath. I know experimental frenzy is not on that level but its cheaper to cast and allows us to use the top cards of our library as a resource when our hand is empty.
Experimental Frenzy - I am a big fan of Future Sight effects and I have played with Frenzy some in standard. The card has its highs and its lows for sure. It gets stronger if you put some level of priority in topdeck manipulation but as a standalone effect I have seen a few too many times where you see two lands in a row and question your life decisions. I think it can be used in commander but I am hesitant to do so outside of mono red or boros where you often don't have options. In a deck like this with access to black I often feel there are less risky card options to consider. I would much rather play Bolas's Citadel in this kind of deck where I still get access to my hand and could play draw spells to good effect as I still have my hand if I need. Its a fun card and if you want to try it out I think its fine but I think you will encounter some bad turns as well as good turns with it. Its better to run a lower land count with fetchlands if you are going to try it. Fetchlands thin your deck by a small margin but they also give you a refresh effect on demand for this effect to blank a bad topdeck.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Long time lurker but big fan of all decks Mardu. Quick question, what's everyone's opinion on experimental frenzy in this deck?
I got curious about this card ever since bolas's citadel proved to be an absolute bomb every time it came into play, either as a finisher dumping a bunch of cheap vamps into the field and sacrificing them for that last 10 dmg or just allowing me to get back into the game after a wrath. I know experimental frenzy is not on that level but its cheaper to cast and allows us to use the top cards of our library as a resource when our hand is empty.
Experimental Frenzy - I am a big fan of Future Sight effects and I have played with Frenzy some in standard. The card has its highs and its lows for sure. It gets stronger if you put some level of priority in topdeck manipulation but as a standalone effect I have seen a few too many times where you see two lands in a row and question your life decisions. I think it can be used in commander but I am hesitant to do so outside of mono red or boros where you often don't have options. In a deck like this with access to black I often feel there are less risky card options to consider. I would much rather play Bolas's Citadel in this kind of deck where I still get access to my hand and could play draw spells to good effect as I still have my hand if I need. Its a fun card and if you want to try it out I think its fine but I think you will encounter some bad turns as well as good turns with it. Its better to run a lower land count with fetchlands if you are going to try it. Fetchlands thin your deck by a small margin but they also give you a refresh effect on demand for this effect to blank a bad topdeck.
I've really enjoyed playing this list, with a few changes:
Dolmen Gate / Cover of Darkness for Vedalken Orrery
My meta is boardwipe heavy and I've found I have a greater impact when I can dump a bunch of vampires the endstep before my turn. It's unfortunate to spend four mana and pass but avoiding being seen as the threat until I'm ready to do some real damage has worked for me.
Minions' Murmurs for Champion of Dusk
For one extra mana I get a 4/4 and a 1/1 and it works on an empty board. I only run three non vampire creatures (not including the gods) so the creatures/vampires distinction rarely makes a difference.
haha thanx for your long reply! you’re a hard man to convince though
I get it through after working on a deck for more than a year I don't take others opinions for granted either.
I guess the support cards really are meta dependent. I'm usually the only 'go wide' player at the table so maybe that's why these cards work for me. I must admit that therefore wrath's are my biggest problems (next to big flying things) and I evaluate cards accordingly. You are right that cards like Mass Hysteria and Impact Tremors are at their best when rebuilding.
Price of Progress just has a great mana/damage ratio. I guess you're running Serra Ascendant for similair reasons (doing dmg as quick as posible). Manabarbs unfortunately doesn't come close to PoP's potential though.
Regarding dark ritual and culling the weak. It's not their main use to get Edgar in play but they dos increase the accessibility to Edgar as an added bonus. With the insane card draw Edgar runs the loss of cards is neglectable and they just add a great amount of explosive capability to the deck. I'd really like to ask for your indulgence and add dark ritual and culling the weak to your deck next time you pick the deck up. Seeing how something works is always better then throwing around arguments for or against a card and I'm just convinced you're going to like them
There are two other cards on which you voiced your opinion that I can't let slip, Which are Mirror Entity and Dark Confidant.
Regarding Entity: Your arguments are all solid, but I regard this card as possibly the best three drop we have. Why? because it's the only three drop that can make our army a lethal force. Your calculation example is the exact reason I run him. He's the only three drop we have that can turn just two other vampires (and thus 3 tokens) into a significant force. Yes it's going to be the turn after we play him and yes it's likely to be removed in the meantime, but is this a bad thing? This card often forces people to wrath a turn earlier than they would otherwise do. I'd agree with an argument that this card is less good in a meta where spot removal is dominant. If wrath effect are dominant however........
Regarding Dark Confidant, I've read through a number of pages of this topic by now and I've more than once heard you voice your opinion that a two drop felt 'lackluster' on curve. I'd argue that this is the same for Confi as well. Further I'd consider Confi only better then sign in blood after three turns in play. Like you're saying, this list is so aggressive and so fast that I feel like cards that need to be in play for 3 turns might not be wat we want.
Anyway, really nice to have a discussion about Edgar. Your thread definitely made me look at a number of cards I’m running twice and make some minor adjustments to my deck! I really hope you’re willing to give the rituals a shot and report back your findings.
Sorry I am totally set in my ways and there was a time where I would play Edgar every week and sometimes multiple times a night. I have toned it way back in part because I might have burned my group out on edgar as well as the fact that I don't feel like I need nearly as much testing of the core of the deck as I once was looking to get. There are pros and cons to that as I have become set in my ways and the things I am comfortable with. I really wasn't ever looking to become a primer or the source for Edgar when I started I was just trying to point out that lower curves with high draw was the way to go.
With the number of new aristocrat vampires it might be a lot more viable to run heavier sac outlets in here than it did in the past. I really haven't done any work towards this so much as mentioning that the landscape for vampires has changed a lot in the year+ that Edgar has been out.
I will try to be better about testing new things. I think you have valid points on Mirror Entity / Bob and I do need to test some new things. Culling the Weak intrigues me as well so we will see what I can get around to for testing.
I liked it a lot, and when it was working, it was a lot of fun to play, but I think my meta runs too many board wipes, and has too many combo decks, or decks running dangerous cards that just shut this deck down.
With all the draw, coming back from 1 or 2 board wipes usually wasn't hard, but seeing 3, 4, or 5 was back breaking.
In too many games I'd have someone dead, or near dead, and then somebody would just combo off, and all the damage I put out would be irrelevant, or someone would have a few moderately-sized creatures out, drop a Craterhoof and trample over my guys.
I will say that, due to some of these issues, I found that having Haste for my team was very valuable, though I didn't get around to picking up a Mass Hysteria, and Fervor always felt a little slow at 3 mana.
I did win one game off of Impact Tremors.
Right now, I'm considering trying Edgar as a more controlling build with Grave Pact effects, and using his Eminence ability to provide a lot of bodies to sacrifice for value. This, largely because I have all these vampire sitting around doing nothing.
I have always had mixed feelings on Grave Pact but I do think that the aristocrats have gotten much better this year. If you are faced with a lot of board sweepers I do think there are ways to adapt and adjust for a deck like this but it will be challenging.
This is my current version of the deck. As you can see, it's way more budget than your version. So my manabase is worse, less tutors and no moxes/crypt. It's running pretty well these days, but it's very reliant on necropotencetymna the weaver and skullclamp.
Blue matchups with cyclonic rift are the worst matchup in my meta and I typically have to focus them or I lose in the late game, I'm running REB mostly to stop that cyclonic and blue combo decks. I'm trying to find room for shared animosity and bolas's citadel, which I think is actually better than Minion's Murmurs and Ad Nauseaum.
Given the amount of blood artists we now have access to, I think sac outlets are getting better for us.
Looking good, I like your creature heavy approach for the budget. I wonder if it might be better to have perhaps a little less removal and replace it with some more draw though potentially. I find that if I have really good card flow then I can rely less on having higher numbers for some effects.
Bloodcrazed Paladin - I haven't ever played him myself. He lacks evasion and encourages you to keep up mana to respond with him rather than curve him. Its possible he could be ok if you build a sac based build but otherwise I am not too keen.
Rakish Heir - he is probably the lowest tier of anthem 3 mana vamp I run. He doesn't anthem until after you hit which is unfortunate but I liked how he is a fire and forget and his value adds up the same turn you cast him potentially which makes spot removal less detrimental. I don't think its the end of the world if you cut him though.
God-Pharaoh's Gift - I don't see a reason to run this over God-Eternal Oketra (I guess maybe budget). For the difference in mana its likely you could cast at least one creature same turn and I feel like we could get far more zombies over time with the new white god than with God Pharaoh. I guess there is the haste part on the tokens with God Pharaoh but I still don't think its enough given the cost and difference in expectations.
Gate to the Afterlife - I have seen a lot of people consider / play with it so perhaps someone else can chime in. I continue to not run it because it requires me to have creatures, swing with them, and keep them. Assuming I can do all of those things I feel like I am generally in a fairly good spot already so I have called this potentially winmore. If you have all of those things and instead used this slot for a tutor you could tutor and play some other wincon or use that tutor to get draw or an answer if need be. I just think the times where this card is good is only times where the deck is probably doing fine.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Well I did some testing this weekend (albeit it was 1v1) and I arrived at these conclusions:
If there were five more 1/1 vanilla vampires for B I'd play them. I feel getting two 1/1 vampires for one mana is just so strong that I want to do this all the time. Dropping 3 one drops and then a lord or some good effect feels like the thing this deck wants to be doing. There are only 4-5 two drop vampires that I actualy feel are worth the two mana, all others I'd replace with 1 drops if this were possible.
Further all the 2 drops that aren’t vampires feel bad to have in your opening hand. Some supporting two drops we have access to are good when playing the second wave (after a board wipe) others after establishing a good board position (Zulaport Cutthroat) but I never want to see them in my first hand. I've drawn Zulaport Cutthroat three times in the first few turns and I was never happy seeing it. I’m probably going to cut a few of the support cards and add more 2 drop vampires to my list because of this.
I did some testing of bolas's citadel. The card value of it was mediocre for its six mana since you get stuck as soon as you hit your second land. This can be manipulated slightly with fetch land and you could add top but I don't think the card value will ever be better than the other options we have available. However..... the second ability really suprised me. Every time I drew it, or played it, the damage it could deal finished the game for me (or could have if I hadn't misplayed).... Granted these where 1v1 games but dealing 10 damage to each opponent is a huge effect for this deck. Ad in some of the card]Zulaport Cutthroat[/card]'s and it can deal upwards of 15-20 dmg to each opponent. It for sure warrants some more testing for me.
@ISBPathfinder:
Great to hear your going to test some more! I’m looking forward to your findings. I realize you didn’t write your OP as a primer, but somehow this topic is the most active source on information about Edgar that I could find online. Would it be ok if I used some of the material you wrote to construct a primer about Edgar? Either I could PM it to you to add to the OP or I’d make a primer at tapped out. I do still have to find time for it though.
I have to revise my opinion of dark confidant. This support card was the only two drop I didn’t feel sad about playing on turn two. I do have to say whenever I had to sacrifice a creature confi was the first to go as I’d always want to keep as many vampire bodies in play as possible.
Are you still running Reliquary Tower? I kind of cut it in all my decks that don't really need a hand size of 10+, which is only control I guess.
@yeti1069:
I'm sorry to hear you took the deck apart. But I second your conclusion that multiple board wipes can be hard to deal with (My findings is that generally a third or fourth board wipe puts you in topdeck mode and this is often game over). I definitely think that aristocrats Edgar is a viable strategy, though I can't recall I ever saw a good list. So I’m curious to hear of your findings!
@mythicpogchamp:
Wouldn't Mass Hysteria achieve a similar result to what your using Vedalken Orrery for? And it's cheaper and faster ^^
@Shannar: Bloodcrazed Paladin I've tested in the past. On paper it looks fun as a way to capitalize on board wipes but in practice holding up the mana at the right time just doesn't work (similar to indestructible effects).
Rakish Heir has been OK for me. When not contested It can really run out of hand and walk away with the game, which happens to me occasionally. I think I’d rate it over Drana, Liberator of Malakir as Drana is dependent on connecting herself. Then again I tent to swing with Drana whereas I don't with rakish heir, so I guess that's worth something as well.
God-Pharaoh's Gift and Gate to the Afterlife I don't really think that a 7 mana artifacts that might produce a 4/4 (non vamp) token a turn is wat we want. Even if it were a 4/4 vampire token I think there are cards that can produce more value for 7 mana.
@NZB2323:
I really like where your taking your build to, running all the possible 1 drops a lot of vampire two drops as well as adding lots of lifelink. Except for the mana base I don't feel it's that budged at all and it's almost exact same as I run atm. Only thing I'm playing differently is more ramp, sol ring, chrome mox, dark ritual and culling the weak all have been good for me any reason you’re not running a sol ring? A an advise I’d look into replacing some of your lands that come into play tapped, since we’re a really aggressive deck I feel these are worse than normal in Edgar. Path of Ancestry is an exception though. scrying every turn is really nice and helped me out on many occasions.
@Spacebeest I could certainly try it, but the flexibility of flashing in non creature cards or a combo piece at the right moment has made for some really fun games. You haven't truly lived until you've cast Austere Command at instant speed in Mardu.
I don’t run Sol Ring because there are only 14 cards in my deck that cost 2 or more colorless mana. I run all 17 1 drop vampires, 4 2 drop vampires that cost BB and 3 2 drop vampires that cost WB. In many hands Sol Ring doesn’t do anything and I’d rather be casting a vampire.
If Zulaport Cutthroat underwhelmed you in 1-on-1, you should do some testing with him in multiplayer. His ability really shines there because it affects each opponent and multiplayer games tend to hand a lot of board wipes.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I can't argue with fun NZB232. I'm sure the card provides some memorable games And I do love the idea of the mind games you can play with Vedalken Orrery.
@NZB2323: I'd argue that sol ring never is a dead card in an opener because it at least gets Edgard into play 1-2 turns earlier. All those 1/1 vamps are fun and all, but they are not going to achieve much without a bit of help. However having said that, with such a high color requirement I understand that sol ring becomes less attractive. Still with only 33 land and no further ramp, don't you ever have a hard time casting Champion of Dusk, Malakir Bloodwitch, Ad Nauseam, Eldrazi Monument or Edgar himself? maybe dark ritual or culling the weak might be better suited for your deck...
With regard to Zulaport Cutthroat, i was only pointing out that it feels bad to have in your opener. ISBPathfinder stated that both Impact Tremors and Metallic Mimic felt lackluster in openers and have been cut (or not included) for those reasons. I was pointing out that I feel the same way about Zulaport. There are multiple two drop support options for our deck and none of them feel nice to play on turn two. Therefore I was suggesting to take a few of them out of my deck in favor of more vampires. For myself I’m still running:
- Impact Tremors
- Cover of Darkness
- Zulaport Cutthroat
- Dark Confidant
- Metallic Mimic
- Throne of the God-Pharaoh
- I've cut Price of Progress as of today though I still think it has potential.
- I'm not playing Goblin Bombardment or Smuggler's Copter but I'd imagine these are suboptimal on turn two as well (though copter might be okayish on turn two)
Of course you could argue that any hand having to play one of these on turn two should be mulliganed. Anyway I really think that all of these cards have potential (Zulaport to) but I think there's a limited amount of them Edgar should run. With regards to Zulaport I was considering that, since you don’t want to drop him early anyway, Vindictive Vampire might just be better? As you're running both what are your thoughts on this?
In most games I never cast Edgar. He’s so good from the command zone and with Necropotence I usually always have cards to cast. Necropotence also helps me find additional land drops.
I love cards like Zulaport cutthroat, goblin bombardment, and Vindictive Vampire because they put my opponents in an impossible situation. Even if they cast a Terminus I can sacrifice creatures to goblin bombardment in response. Unless someone plays a Krosan Grip I can sacrifice creatures in response to it being blown up. If someone plays a pillow fort deck I can still get to them. I can use goblin bombardment to kill troublesome creatures my opponents have. I’d say Goblin Bombardment is vastly superior to Metallic Mimic. It cost 0 mana to active and you can do it at instant speed.
I’d say Zulaport Cutthroat is better than Vindictive Vampire just because of CMC, but I like both.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
@Spacebeest
I think one notable difference in playstyle for this deck is that you do emphasize ramp and such towards playing Edgar Markov, while some like me rarely focus on casting our Commander. In fact, the rare times I do cast him is when I'm in a bad spot and have nothing else to do. So while I do run Sol Ring in my deck, I'm usually not too impressed having it in my opening hand since I mainly need colored mana during the early turns. The rituals feel like a better option in that regard, but you need a black heavy hand or have something to generate card advantage off of it.
Cover of Darkness can do some work but in the games I had it, I felt like I needed to sandbag the card until I had a decent mass of vampires. Making things semi-unblockable just ups the threat level for opponents, where as holding it back has allowed me a few more turns in some games. Though I did cut it out of my deck during the recent changes I made, as rather want something that does something than sit idle.
Goblin Bombardment is one card I wouldn't cut on the other hand, it helps mess with things quite a bit. Block and sack the creature before damage is done to disrupt lifelink or other combat damage triggered effects is one thing. It makes boardwipes hurt more as you just sac your board in response. It even got me around dealing with an opponent whom had Propaganda and Ghostly Prison out.
Sure both suck on turn two, with Cover of Darkness definitely not being what I want to play on turn two, but you're always going to have to play some cards at a suboptimal level. Just like mulligans won't always give you a perfect hand. But with the deck being a proactive one, I'd rather be casting something on curve than hold off a turn to play that more expensive vampire.
Shared animosity and Coat of arms are often one shot effects and I’d prefer to keep them for the finishing blow. Same for Malakir bloodwitch. Throne of the god-pharaoh is situational, and sanctum seeker is just bonkers but you can’t have him all the time now can you
As a small calculation example (yes in reality you have blockers, removal, and other conditions) we have five 1/1 vamps. We play Edgar, which has haste and can attack the same turn. We are attacking for 5*2 + 5 = 15 dmg. Next turn we are attacking for 5*3+6 = 21. Add this up and we have close to lethal dmg for one player. With culling the weak we can set up this board state on turn 3.
Of course this is not likely going to happen in a real game, if not for opponents making these same calculation and realizing they either have to do something about our board state or they start dying. So they either remove Edgar (we still keep the +1/+1 counters) or, more likely, they wipe the board. In which case our card value is only -3/4 and we can rebuild easily.
In the given example I’d therfore play Edgar over Bloodline Keeper or any two lords because keeping these in hand would provide me with a rebuild. I’d also play Edgar over Ad nauseum or Wheel for the same reason, they provide me with a rebuild.
Concluding, Edgar provides an easy way to create a significant board position without having to over extend. I value this as a strategy against board wipes (For the same reasons I run mirror entity). Edgar’s effect in strength is in between animosity and the vampire but we have access to him at all times. The fact that he puts counters on permanent means he’s less susceptible to spot removal and he even ‘anthems’ creatures the turn they come into play.
That being said, ramp cards are not primarily there for casting Edgar, it’s just nice that they increase your accessibility to him. After both your comments I Reevaluated my opinion about Sol Ring, and thinking back there have been multiple instances where I didn’t cast him until turn three or so as I didn’t need the colorless. The rituals however do defiantly help to resolve multiple spells a turn, whether this be early game or after casting an ad nauseum (or making it possible to cast the ad nauseum) or getting Edgar into play they have always been useful and I’ve yet to be disappointed to see one.
Regarding Cover of Darkness I think its ok, its’s a card that’s completely dead in some situations and in others can provide your whole team with evasion against the entire table. Because it can be a complete dead card to I could totally see cutting it. If it works it’s pretty powerful though. Also like stated above, I like forcing people wrath earlier rather than later (=losing less resources). If this card helps me do it that then I’m all for it.
The main problem I have with Goblin Bombardment is that it deals damage to one target only, meaning that for the ‘dealing 120 dmg total’ (3x40) goal Impact Tremors, Zulaport Cutthroat, Throne of the God-Pharaoh and Price of Progress all have more potential. Even Metallic Mimic provides more damage as it gives +1 per creature and can attack itself (+ is a vamp therefore can receive boosts). In all given examples (Propaganda / Ghostly Prison and Terminus) I’d still argue that Impact Tremors, Zulaport Cutthroat (and co, with sac outlet), Throne of the God-Pharaoh and Price of Progress have a higher dmg output because they deal dmg to each opponent, which adds up to a higher total. Of course setting up a cutthroat with bombardment is very nice but not something we can consistently do as I don’t think we will ever be tutoring for either effect (or do you guys do this?).
However having said that….. due to your comments I figured that goblin bombardment can seriously mess with combat calculations, which does make me want to try him.
Of course these are only one man’s thoughts so I’d love to hear how you guys feel about this. Since every single list I’ve seen here runs Bombardment I must be at least be wrong in that regard.
The main problem I have with Goblin Bombardment is that it deals damage to one target only, meaning that for the ‘dealing 120 dmg total’ (3x40) goal Impact Tremors, Zulaport Cutthroat, Throne of the God-Pharaoh and Price of Progress all have more potential. Even Metallic Mimic provides more damage as it gives +1 per creature and can attack itself (+ is a vamp therefore can receive boosts). In all given examples (Propaganda / Ghostly Prison and Terminus) I’d still argue that Impact Tremors, Zulaport Cutthroat (and co, with sac outlet), Throne of the God-Pharaoh and Price of Progress have a higher dmg output because they deal dmg to each opponent, which adds up to a higher total. Of course setting up a cutthroat with bombardment is very nice but not something we can consistently do as I don’t think we will ever be tutoring for either effect (or do you guys do this?).
Bombardment doesn't need to do the full 120 damage itself, since you need creatures to trigger it and you're going to be swinging first and use the sac to mitigate disadvantageous situations when attacking (though Reconnaissance does this better) or blocking, do some damage when a wipe happens or just to get that last bit of damage in.
Impact Tremors could be more efficient since you don't have to sac creatures and thus does guarantee damage, but Bombardment simply adds some versatility in the sense that the when you use it can mess with an opponent in more ways than just life.
Throne of the God-Pharaoh is more awkward I'd say, sure in an ideal situation it can do a bunch but your attacking with small vampires and they need to survive in order to get the trigger. It's a nonbo with Reconnaissance, since that untaps, so at 'most' it will just encourage blocks where in other situations you can chip through.
There is potential in these cards as alternatives but sometimes damage alone isn't enough. I will note that I quite often have both Bombardment and a Blood Artist/Zulaport Cutthroat on board, which with Cruel Celebrant is going to be even more likely, without tutoring for one of these.
@Spacebeest
Aside from discussing these cards, do you have your full list somewhere?
I do not currently have my list online. I'll make work of putting it somewhere.
Note though that I'm still very actively tweaking this list as less than a month ago I was still playing Twilight Prophet and Kalitas, Traiotr of Geth
I tutor for Necropotence, which often, along with the other card draw in this deck, helps me draw these cards to pair with Goblin Bombardment. The other thing is Bombardment can target creatures, which can be useful since we don’t really run any creature removal. Finally, I play cards that are fine to sacrifice like:
A lot of times board wipes can set this deck back. If you play a metallic mimic and your opponent plays a wrath, that mimic contributed to 0 damage against your opponents. Also a wrath destroys mimic and not bombardment. If you play a mimic and don’t have enough mana to attack through a pillow fort he deals 0 damage to your opponents.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I guess I'm in a favorable meta as people tend to play 0,5 creatures a turn on average. As such I have not had issues with swinging in with tokens and, as a result, Throne of the God-Pharaoh has been one of my better cards. I do believe that If there's a higher average of creatures a turn (2+) then throne becomes a bit awkward.
I'm just going to try Bombardment out and see for myself how well the card performs. It's always best to support an argument with actual test results and as it seems to be working for you guys I'm gonna try it out.
I do want to trow two more arguments in there, because I can't let it slip
- Mimic should definitely not be played as a last card before a board wipe, but rather the first one after it.
- Bombardment does provide an alternative way of attack and I'm sure that I'm happy having him when facing Propaganda / Ghostly Prison and Terminus. I'm just not sure if I'm also happy with him if I'm not facing these cards but I'm gonna test this out and see for myself. I guess this is mainly because I have not been too impressed with Blood artist either, as this also suffers from dealing damage to one person only.
Edit: When running all 4 the Cutthroats I'm sure you want a third sac outlet and then Bombardment is probably the best option.
Not necessarily, it does cost one more mana. Costing more mana is kind of a big deal in this deck but I could see room to argue between the two though. Murmurs also does count non vampires for whatever that is worth.
I guess I can see how others feel about the change and or what feedback they have on my change.
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[Modern] Allies
I was starting on writing a primer about Edgar on Tappedout and then I found this thread.
Seeing this is a quite active topic this seems a great place to have some discussion about Edgar!
I didn't read through all 14 pages of posts so I’m bound to make some suggestions that already have been discussed, but I hope there is still some suggestions that are useful here.
Like you I arrived at the conclusion that cheaper creatures are better. Edgar is amazing at building a significant board presence when supported by one and two drop vampires. This deck is quick and aggressive. It's aim is to deal 120 damage as quickly as possible. Protecting creatures in nonsense and we just rebuild our board with raw drawing power. In evaluating cards for Edgar I have two criteria: How much damage does it deal or how much cards do it draws us.
Regarding your question about Champion of Dusk vs Minions’ Murmurs: Run both.
I feel the decks biggest problem is board wipes and from my experience card draw is the best way to combat it.
Unless you feel there is too much card draw in your deck already?
If I'd have to choose I'd go for champion because it always at least draws two cards.
The life loss from these drawing effects can be hard on Edgar though. I generally don't mind that I have to discard a few cards from overdrawing, i get to keep the best of them anyway, but the life loss can hurt. I'm considering stocking up on lifelinking vampires to compensate for this. A big hit with a few lifelinking creatures and coat of arms or Shared Animosity in play can help a lot.
I recently added dark ritual and culling the weak and I’m absolutely loving them. I'd highly recommend you add them to your deck.
Mainly I use them to get Edgar into play early. However they are also great in powering out one of the big draw spells or coat of arms.
And, when drawing 8 or so cards they are very useful to be able to play some of the drawn cards that same turn.
I'm currently testing mana vault for these same reasons but can't confirm its use yet.
Maybe you could cut Mox Diamond since your only running 34 lands?
Further I’d like to suggest a few cards that hit all players and can deal tons of dammage.
impact tremors. Maybe swap for Goblin Bombardment?
throne of the God-Pharaoh. Doesn't work very well with your Reconnaissance but I’d take it over reconnaissance anyway.
price of progress. It hits us hard too, but if we are the lowest life total on the board then we did something wrong.
All three of these can deal 10+ dmg to each opponent. Granted they are conditional in that they have to be played at the right time in the rite board state. But when they do they can be crucial to secure a win. If not at the right time then you can mostly still get 6 points of dmg out of them (making 18 total).
Two more permanents that have been good for me:
coat of arms. I don't see this in your list and I'm really wondering why? My playgroup kills this thing on sight because otherwise it's game over. If it's the high mana cost, you're running Austere Command Liliana, Dreadhorde General, Malakir Bloodwitch and Ad Nauseam, so 5 mana shouldn't be that big of a problem. This card has won me so many games, the only reason I would see not to run it is your meta is all goblins and elves.
The other card is mass hysteria. This build is all about speed and this card helps getting fast damage.
I'm sure you checked every vampire available and have made a good selection, so I would like to hear why you choose not to run these:
Mirror Entity. Is a vampire and can single handedly make you team a huge thread. If you’re stuck at two or three mana this might not be the best card, but at 4-6 mana it’s a beast. Has won me games.
Adanto Vanguard. Survives board wipes and as a 3/1 is quite decently bodied at that.
Vampire Nocturnus. I still have to acquire this one but +2/+1 and evasion for the whole team?
And some the less good but still playable vamps:
Kalastria Highborn. Also yet to acquirebut looks very good for a 2 drop, especially with some sac outlets, keeping mana up for a board wipe probably won’t happen anyway.
Forerunner of the legion. In addition to vampire tutor +2/+2 for every vamp you cast.
Falkenrath Gorger could be played over Vampire Lacerator
Stromkirk Condemned its semi lord and with the huge amount of card draws in the deck the discard option is actually quite playable.
Vampire Hexmagekills walkers.
falkenrath exterminator, mainly play it because it grows. Can sometimes kill a creature.
Twilight Prophet. Drawing cards on a vamp. Ping everyone at the same time. Though I’ve noticed it becomes a bit less useful with the low mana curve.
Some cards I’ve tested and cut from your deck are:
Obelisk of Urd. Tapping vampires and not attacking is not something I want to do. Any team boosting I want in Edgar has to be able to get out of hand and or be a vampire. Static effects on artifacts or enchantments don't cut it for me. . I prefer to run coat of arms. Other than that I have Edgar for the pumps.
Goblin Bombardment can't deal enough dmg to warrant a spot. If it would deal dmg to all opponents I’d run it, as is there are cards that can deal more dmg that I can run.
Iroas, God of Victory. Its abilities are quite good but this card doesn’t change the board state enough to warrant a sport for me. It ended up sitting in my hand and I preferred to cast other cards instead because I could deal more damage that way. I haven't tried Goblin War Drums yet but I imagine I would feel pretty similar about this.
Dark Confidant. In this deck I want my draw spells to draw me lots of cards. If it would stay in play for 6 turns I’d play it. But it usually doesn't.
Lastly I run a completely different removal suite compared to you. But I guess removal is meta dependent anyway. So I won’t go in to detail about it in this post.
Welcome to salvation. I do my best to work through what to run and why to run it so I won't say my list is anywhere near perfect as it really isn't. Every meta is different and that can adjust a lot of things that we should run and what kind of evasions, answers, and draw / sustain we run as well. I think its more important to discuss why cards are or are not good and where their flaws might be. I think there are a TON of viable support cards beyond the vampires of this deck and many of them are totally fine to run. I base a lot of my own decisions around the meta I can see and how I can test but I also think its very important with a deck like this to build arround immediate results. It often takes a lot of cards and or bodies to accomplish the things we want to do so a lot of my own personal preferences are asking what the immediate impact of a situation is rather than how good something would be if it sticks for several turns. This kind of deck tends to play a little arch enemy in that many people will try to remove us and or slow us down. My own current meta is one where players play a lot of token based tactics as well as a lot of tactics that win suddenly from nowhere but not to the point of being consistant combo decks. I think this is relevant info to give as to where I am and where I come from.
I do want to test a few things out. I don't really know how these all will go over but I felt that they could be tested at the least.
DECK CHANGES:
Sorry if that got long, I wanted to respond in depth of why.
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[Modern] Allies
I get it through after working on a deck for more than a year I don't take others opinions for granted either.
I guess the support cards really are meta dependent. I'm usually the only 'go wide' player at the table so maybe that's why these cards work for me. I must admit that therefore wrath's are my biggest problems (next to big flying things) and I evaluate cards accordingly. You are right that cards like Mass Hysteria and Impact Tremors are at their best when rebuilding.
Price of Progress just has a great mana/damage ratio. I guess you're running Serra Ascendant for similair reasons (doing dmg as quick as posible). Manabarbs unfortunately doesn't come close to PoP's potential though.
Regarding dark ritual and culling the weak. It's not their main use to get Edgar in play but they dos increase the accessibility to Edgar as an added bonus. With the insane card draw Edgar runs the loss of cards is neglectable and they just add a great amount of explosive capability to the deck. I'd really like to ask for your indulgence and add dark ritual and culling the weak to your deck next time you pick the deck up. Seeing how something works is always better then throwing around arguments for or against a card and I'm just convinced you're going to like them
There are two other cards on which you voiced your opinion that I can't let slip, Which are Mirror Entity and Dark Confidant.
Regarding Entity: Your arguments are all solid, but I regard this card as possibly the best three drop we have. Why? because it's the only three drop that can make our army a lethal force. Your calculation example is the exact reason I run him. He's the only three drop we have that can turn just two other vampires (and thus 3 tokens) into a significant force. Yes it's going to be the turn after we play him and yes it's likely to be removed in the meantime, but is this a bad thing? This card often forces people to wrath a turn earlier than they would otherwise do. I'd agree with an argument that this card is less good in a meta where spot removal is dominant. If wrath effect are dominant however........
Regarding Dark Confidant, I've read through a number of pages of this topic by now and I've more than once heard you voice your opinion that a two drop felt 'lackluster' on curve. I'd argue that this is the same for Confi as well. Further I'd consider Confi only better then sign in blood after three turns in play. Like you're saying, this list is so aggressive and so fast that I feel like cards that need to be in play for 3 turns might not be wat we want.
Anyway, really nice to have a discussion about Edgar. Your thread definitely made me look at a number of cards I’m running twice and make some minor adjustments to my deck! I really hope you’re willing to give the rituals a shot and report back your findings.
I liked it a lot, and when it was working, it was a lot of fun to play, but I think my meta runs too many board wipes, and has too many combo decks, or decks running dangerous cards that just shut this deck down.
With all the draw, coming back from 1 or 2 board wipes usually wasn't hard, but seeing 3, 4, or 5 was back breaking.
In too many games I'd have someone dead, or near dead, and then somebody would just combo off, and all the damage I put out would be irrelevant, or someone would have a few moderately-sized creatures out, drop a Craterhoof and trample over my guys.
I will say that, due to some of these issues, I found that having Haste for my team was very valuable, though I didn't get around to picking up a Mass Hysteria, and Fervor always felt a little slow at 3 mana.
I did win one game off of Impact Tremors.
Right now, I'm considering trying Edgar as a more controlling build with Grave Pact effects, and using his Eminence ability to provide a lot of bodies to sacrifice for value. This, largely because I have all these vampire sitting around doing nothing.
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Skymarcher Aspirant
1 Champion of Dusk
1 Twilight Prophet
1 Elenda, the Dusk Rose
1 Legion Lieutenant
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Adanto Vanguard
1 Duskborne Skymarcher
1 Bloodcrazed Paladin
1 Sanctum Seeker
1 Vicious Conquistador
1 Patron of the Vein
1 Mathas, Fiend Seeker
1 Blood Artist
1 Captivating Vampire
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Malakir Bloodwitch
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Rakish Heir
1 Stromkirk Captain
1 Mirror Entity
1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Gifted Aetherborn
1 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
1 Metallic Mimic
1 Tymna the Weaver
1 Vampire Cutthroat
1 Indulgent Aristocrat
1 Olivia's Bloodsworn
1 Falkenrath Gorger
1 Insolent Neonate
1 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Shadow Alley Denizen
1 Viscera Seer
1 Vampire Nocturnus
1 Falkenrath Marauders
1 Stromkirk Noble
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Pitiless Pontiff
1 Vindictive Vampire
1 Cruel Celebrant
1 Crackling Doom
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fire Covenant
1 Utter End
1 Necropotence
1 Anointed Procession
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Dark Prophecy
1 Reconnaissance
1 New Blood
1 Minions' Murmurs
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Blade of the Bloodchief
1 Skullclamp
1 Unclaimed Territory
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Bloodfell Caves
1 Nomad Outpost
1 Survivors' Encampment
1 Canyon Slough
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Shadowblood Ridge
1 Aether Hub
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Evolving Wilds
1 City of Brass
2 Mountain
14 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Ash Barrens
1 Scoured Barrens
1 Command Tower
1 Akoum Refuge
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Rakdos Guildgate
This is my current version of the deck. As you can see, it's way more budget than your version. So my manabase is worse, less tutors and no moxes/crypt. It's running pretty well these days, but it's very reliant on necropotence tymna the weaver and skullclamp.
Blue matchups with cyclonic rift are the worst matchup in my meta and I typically have to focus them or I lose in the late game, I'm running REB mostly to stop that cyclonic and blue combo decks. I'm trying to find room for shared animosity and bolas's citadel, which I think is actually better than Minion's Murmurs and Ad Nauseaum.
I recently cut scapegoat, because it was only really helping me when I had anointed procession on the board. Falkenrath Aristocrat and Falkenrath Mauraders have been very good for me, the haste really helps after a board wipe. Which does make me want to test Mass Hysteria. Another one that intrigues me is Revival // Revenge.
Elenda is probaly bad, but I really love the card.
Given the amount of blood artists we now have access to, I think sac outlets are getting better for us.
Sorry I am totally set in my ways and there was a time where I would play Edgar every week and sometimes multiple times a night. I have toned it way back in part because I might have burned my group out on edgar as well as the fact that I don't feel like I need nearly as much testing of the core of the deck as I once was looking to get. There are pros and cons to that as I have become set in my ways and the things I am comfortable with. I really wasn't ever looking to become a primer or the source for Edgar when I started I was just trying to point out that lower curves with high draw was the way to go.
With the number of new aristocrat vampires it might be a lot more viable to run heavier sac outlets in here than it did in the past. I really haven't done any work towards this so much as mentioning that the landscape for vampires has changed a lot in the year+ that Edgar has been out.
I will try to be better about testing new things. I think you have valid points on Mirror Entity / Bob and I do need to test some new things. Culling the Weak intrigues me as well so we will see what I can get around to for testing.
I have always had mixed feelings on Grave Pact but I do think that the aristocrats have gotten much better this year. If you are faced with a lot of board sweepers I do think there are ways to adapt and adjust for a deck like this but it will be challenging.
Looking good, I like your creature heavy approach for the budget. I wonder if it might be better to have perhaps a little less removal and replace it with some more draw though potentially. I find that if I have really good card flow then I can rely less on having higher numbers for some effects.
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[Modern] Allies
Long time lurker but big fan of all decks Mardu. Quick question, what's everyone's opinion on experimental frenzy in this deck?
I got curious about this card ever since bolas's citadel proved to be an absolute bomb every time it came into play, either as a finisher dumping a bunch of cheap vamps into the field and sacrificing them for that last 10 dmg or just allowing me to get back into the game after a wrath. I know experimental frenzy is not on that level but its cheaper to cast and allows us to use the top cards of our library as a resource when our hand is empty.
Experimental Frenzy - I am a big fan of Future Sight effects and I have played with Frenzy some in standard. The card has its highs and its lows for sure. It gets stronger if you put some level of priority in topdeck manipulation but as a standalone effect I have seen a few too many times where you see two lands in a row and question your life decisions. I think it can be used in commander but I am hesitant to do so outside of mono red or boros where you often don't have options. In a deck like this with access to black I often feel there are less risky card options to consider. I would much rather play Bolas's Citadel in this kind of deck where I still get access to my hand and could play draw spells to good effect as I still have my hand if I need. Its a fun card and if you want to try it out I think its fine but I think you will encounter some bad turns as well as good turns with it. Its better to run a lower land count with fetchlands if you are going to try it. Fetchlands thin your deck by a small margin but they also give you a refresh effect on demand for this effect to blank a bad topdeck.
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[Modern] Allies
Makes sense, a card like sensei's divining top becomes key in helping minimize the bad scenarios with Experimental Frenzy/Bolas's Citadel lol.
Dolmen Gate / Cover of Darkness for Vedalken Orrery
My meta is boardwipe heavy and I've found I have a greater impact when I can dump a bunch of vampires the endstep before my turn. It's unfortunate to spend four mana and pass but avoiding being seen as the threat until I'm ready to do some real damage has worked for me.
Serra Ascendant & Stromkirk Condemned for
Oathsworn Vampire & Phyrexian Altar
My playground punishes me severely for playing a 6/6 flying lifelinker early but they are good sports about my aristrocrat/Oathsworn Vampire/Phyrexian Altar combo. Go figure.
Minions' Murmurs for Champion of Dusk
For one extra mana I get a 4/4 and a 1/1 and it works on an empty board. I only run three non vampire creatures (not including the gods) so the creatures/vampires distinction rarely makes a difference.
Hmm. Interesting. I'll cut Minion's Murmurs, a Swamp, Crackling Doom and a Utter End. For Bolas's Citadel, Wrath of God, Paradise Mantle and a Painful Truths I think. And probaly want to add Tithe Drinker and Oathsworn Vampire somewhere. How have Bloodcrazed Paladin,Rakish Heir been performing for you guys? I'm thinking about cutting them.
Another crazy idea was to add God-Pharaoh's Gift and Gate to the Afterlife. But given that it makes zombies, it's probaly not good enough.
Bloodcrazed Paladin - I haven't ever played him myself. He lacks evasion and encourages you to keep up mana to respond with him rather than curve him. Its possible he could be ok if you build a sac based build but otherwise I am not too keen.
Rakish Heir - he is probably the lowest tier of anthem 3 mana vamp I run. He doesn't anthem until after you hit which is unfortunate but I liked how he is a fire and forget and his value adds up the same turn you cast him potentially which makes spot removal less detrimental. I don't think its the end of the world if you cut him though.
God-Pharaoh's Gift - I don't see a reason to run this over God-Eternal Oketra (I guess maybe budget). For the difference in mana its likely you could cast at least one creature same turn and I feel like we could get far more zombies over time with the new white god than with God Pharaoh. I guess there is the haste part on the tokens with God Pharaoh but I still don't think its enough given the cost and difference in expectations.
Gate to the Afterlife - I have seen a lot of people consider / play with it so perhaps someone else can chime in. I continue to not run it because it requires me to have creatures, swing with them, and keep them. Assuming I can do all of those things I feel like I am generally in a fairly good spot already so I have called this potentially winmore. If you have all of those things and instead used this slot for a tutor you could tutor and play some other wincon or use that tutor to get draw or an answer if need be. I just think the times where this card is good is only times where the deck is probably doing fine.
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[Modern] Allies
1 Pulse Tracker
1 Vicious Conquistador
1 Viscera Seer
1 Guul Draz Assassin
1 Quag Vampires
1 Indulgent Aristocrat
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Vampire Neonate
1 Guul Draz Vampire
1 Shadow Alley Denizen
1 Vampire Cutthroat
1 Duskborne Skymarcher
1 Skymarcher Aspirant
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Falkenrath Gorger
1 Stormkirk Noble
1 Bold Impaler
1 Insolent Neonate
2 Legion Lieutenant
2 Stormkirk Condemned
2 Bloodthrone Vampire
2 Bloodghast
2 Oathsworn Vampire
2 Martyr of Dusk
2 Adanto Vanguard
2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
2 Blood Artist
2 Cruel Celebrant
2 Blood Seeker
2 Vampire Interloper
2 Olivia's Bloodsworn
2 Dusk Legion Zealot
2 Asylum Visitor
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Tithe Drinker
2 Bishop's Soldier
2 Child of Night
3 Captivating Vampire
3 Stormkirk Captain
3 Rakish Heir
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4 Vindictive Vampire
4 Bloodline Keeper
4 Vampire Nocturnus
4 Sanctum Seeker
5 Champion of Dusk
5 Malakir Bloodwitch
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
5 Ad Nauseam
Sorceries 3
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Minons' Murmurs
Artifacts 5
1 Skullclamp
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Throne of the God-Pharaoh
5 Eldrazi Monument
6 Obelisk of Urd
Enchantments 7
1 Legion's Landing
2 Cover of Darkness
2 Impact Tremors
2 Goblin Bombardment
3 Shared Animosity
3 Necropotence
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
Lands 33
1 Command Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Unclaimed Territory
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Dark Depths
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Luxury Suite
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Tainted Peak
1 Tainted Field
1 Graven Cairns
1 Fetid Heath
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice
3 swamp
1 plains
1 mountain
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
If there were five more 1/1 vanilla vampires for B I'd play them. I feel getting two 1/1 vampires for one mana is just so strong that I want to do this all the time. Dropping 3 one drops and then a lord or some good effect feels like the thing this deck wants to be doing. There are only 4-5 two drop vampires that I actualy feel are worth the two mana, all others I'd replace with 1 drops if this were possible.
Further all the 2 drops that aren’t vampires feel bad to have in your opening hand. Some supporting two drops we have access to are good when playing the second wave (after a board wipe) others after establishing a good board position (Zulaport Cutthroat) but I never want to see them in my first hand. I've drawn Zulaport Cutthroat three times in the first few turns and I was never happy seeing it. I’m probably going to cut a few of the support cards and add more 2 drop vampires to my list because of this.
I did some testing of bolas's citadel. The card value of it was mediocre for its six mana since you get stuck as soon as you hit your second land. This can be manipulated slightly with fetch land and you could add top but I don't think the card value will ever be better than the other options we have available. However..... the second ability really suprised me. Every time I drew it, or played it, the damage it could deal finished the game for me (or could have if I hadn't misplayed).... Granted these where 1v1 games but dealing 10 damage to each opponent is a huge effect for this deck. Ad in some of the card]Zulaport Cutthroat[/card]'s and it can deal upwards of 15-20 dmg to each opponent. It for sure warrants some more testing for me.
@ISBPathfinder:
Great to hear your going to test some more! I’m looking forward to your findings. I realize you didn’t write your OP as a primer, but somehow this topic is the most active source on information about Edgar that I could find online. Would it be ok if I used some of the material you wrote to construct a primer about Edgar? Either I could PM it to you to add to the OP or I’d make a primer at tapped out. I do still have to find time for it though.
I have to revise my opinion of dark confidant. This support card was the only two drop I didn’t feel sad about playing on turn two. I do have to say whenever I had to sacrifice a creature confi was the first to go as I’d always want to keep as many vampire bodies in play as possible.
Are you still running Reliquary Tower? I kind of cut it in all my decks that don't really need a hand size of 10+, which is only control I guess.
@yeti1069:
I'm sorry to hear you took the deck apart. But I second your conclusion that multiple board wipes can be hard to deal with (My findings is that generally a third or fourth board wipe puts you in topdeck mode and this is often game over). I definitely think that aristocrats Edgar is a viable strategy, though I can't recall I ever saw a good list. So I’m curious to hear of your findings!
@mythicpogchamp:
Wouldn't Mass Hysteria achieve a similar result to what your using Vedalken Orrery for? And it's cheaper and faster ^^
@Shannar:
Bloodcrazed Paladin I've tested in the past. On paper it looks fun as a way to capitalize on board wipes but in practice holding up the mana at the right time just doesn't work (similar to indestructible effects).
Rakish Heir has been OK for me. When not contested It can really run out of hand and walk away with the game, which happens to me occasionally. I think I’d rate it over Drana, Liberator of Malakir as Drana is dependent on connecting herself. Then again I tent to swing with Drana whereas I don't with rakish heir, so I guess that's worth something as well.
God-Pharaoh's Gift and Gate to the Afterlife I don't really think that a 7 mana artifacts that might produce a 4/4 (non vamp) token a turn is wat we want. Even if it were a 4/4 vampire token I think there are cards that can produce more value for 7 mana.
@NZB2323:
I really like where your taking your build to, running all the possible 1 drops a lot of vampire two drops as well as adding lots of lifelink. Except for the mana base I don't feel it's that budged at all and it's almost exact same as I run atm. Only thing I'm playing differently is more ramp, sol ring, chrome mox, dark ritual and culling the weak all have been good for me any reason you’re not running a sol ring? A an advise I’d look into replacing some of your lands that come into play tapped, since we’re a really aggressive deck I feel these are worse than normal in Edgar. Path of Ancestry is an exception though. scrying every turn is really nice and helped me out on many occasions.
If Zulaport Cutthroat underwhelmed you in 1-on-1, you should do some testing with him in multiplayer. His ability really shines there because it affects each opponent and multiplayer games tend to hand a lot of board wipes.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
@NZB2323: I'd argue that sol ring never is a dead card in an opener because it at least gets Edgard into play 1-2 turns earlier. All those 1/1 vamps are fun and all, but they are not going to achieve much without a bit of help. However having said that, with such a high color requirement I understand that sol ring becomes less attractive. Still with only 33 land and no further ramp, don't you ever have a hard time casting Champion of Dusk, Malakir Bloodwitch, Ad Nauseam, Eldrazi Monument or Edgar himself? maybe dark ritual or culling the weak might be better suited for your deck...
With regard to Zulaport Cutthroat, i was only pointing out that it feels bad to have in your opener. ISBPathfinder stated that both Impact Tremors and Metallic Mimic felt lackluster in openers and have been cut (or not included) for those reasons. I was pointing out that I feel the same way about Zulaport. There are multiple two drop support options for our deck and none of them feel nice to play on turn two. Therefore I was suggesting to take a few of them out of my deck in favor of more vampires. For myself I’m still running:
- Impact Tremors
- Cover of Darkness
- Zulaport Cutthroat
- Dark Confidant
- Metallic Mimic
- Throne of the God-Pharaoh
- I've cut Price of Progress as of today though I still think it has potential.
- I'm not playing Goblin Bombardment or Smuggler's Copter but I'd imagine these are suboptimal on turn two as well (though copter might be okayish on turn two)
Of course you could argue that any hand having to play one of these on turn two should be mulliganed. Anyway I really think that all of these cards have potential (Zulaport to) but I think there's a limited amount of them Edgar should run. With regards to Zulaport I was considering that, since you don’t want to drop him early anyway, Vindictive Vampire might just be better? As you're running both what are your thoughts on this?
I love cards like Zulaport cutthroat, goblin bombardment, and Vindictive Vampire because they put my opponents in an impossible situation. Even if they cast a Terminus I can sacrifice creatures to goblin bombardment in response. Unless someone plays a Krosan Grip I can sacrifice creatures in response to it being blown up. If someone plays a pillow fort deck I can still get to them. I can use goblin bombardment to kill troublesome creatures my opponents have. I’d say Goblin Bombardment is vastly superior to Metallic Mimic. It cost 0 mana to active and you can do it at instant speed.
I’d say Zulaport Cutthroat is better than Vindictive Vampire just because of CMC, but I like both.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I think one notable difference in playstyle for this deck is that you do emphasize ramp and such towards playing Edgar Markov, while some like me rarely focus on casting our Commander. In fact, the rare times I do cast him is when I'm in a bad spot and have nothing else to do. So while I do run Sol Ring in my deck, I'm usually not too impressed having it in my opening hand since I mainly need colored mana during the early turns. The rituals feel like a better option in that regard, but you need a black heavy hand or have something to generate card advantage off of it.
Cover of Darkness can do some work but in the games I had it, I felt like I needed to sandbag the card until I had a decent mass of vampires. Making things semi-unblockable just ups the threat level for opponents, where as holding it back has allowed me a few more turns in some games. Though I did cut it out of my deck during the recent changes I made, as rather want something that does something than sit idle.
Goblin Bombardment is one card I wouldn't cut on the other hand, it helps mess with things quite a bit. Block and sack the creature before damage is done to disrupt lifelink or other combat damage triggered effects is one thing. It makes boardwipes hurt more as you just sac your board in response. It even got me around dealing with an opponent whom had Propaganda and Ghostly Prison out.
Sure both suck on turn two, with Cover of Darkness definitely not being what I want to play on turn two, but you're always going to have to play some cards at a suboptimal level. Just like mulligans won't always give you a perfect hand. But with the deck being a proactive one, I'd rather be casting something on curve than hold off a turn to play that more expensive vampire.
It’s true that I do value Edgars effect. On any given board of 5 vampires the only cards with more dmg output are Shared Animosity, coat of arms, Throne of the God-Pharaoh, Malakir Bloodwitch and Sanctum Seeker. In addition to these, there are of course Bloodline Keeper or any two lords that provide the same amount of damage.
Shared animosity and Coat of arms are often one shot effects and I’d prefer to keep them for the finishing blow. Same for Malakir bloodwitch. Throne of the god-pharaoh is situational, and sanctum seeker is just bonkers but you can’t have him all the time now can you
As a small calculation example (yes in reality you have blockers, removal, and other conditions) we have five 1/1 vamps. We play Edgar, which has haste and can attack the same turn. We are attacking for 5*2 + 5 = 15 dmg. Next turn we are attacking for 5*3+6 = 21. Add this up and we have close to lethal dmg for one player. With culling the weak we can set up this board state on turn 3.
Of course this is not likely going to happen in a real game, if not for opponents making these same calculation and realizing they either have to do something about our board state or they start dying. So they either remove Edgar (we still keep the +1/+1 counters) or, more likely, they wipe the board. In which case our card value is only -3/4 and we can rebuild easily.
In the given example I’d therfore play Edgar over Bloodline Keeper or any two lords because keeping these in hand would provide me with a rebuild. I’d also play Edgar over Ad nauseum or Wheel for the same reason, they provide me with a rebuild.
Concluding, Edgar provides an easy way to create a significant board position without having to over extend. I value this as a strategy against board wipes (For the same reasons I run mirror entity). Edgar’s effect in strength is in between animosity and the vampire but we have access to him at all times. The fact that he puts counters on permanent means he’s less susceptible to spot removal and he even ‘anthems’ creatures the turn they come into play.
That being said, ramp cards are not primarily there for casting Edgar, it’s just nice that they increase your accessibility to him. After both your comments I Reevaluated my opinion about Sol Ring, and thinking back there have been multiple instances where I didn’t cast him until turn three or so as I didn’t need the colorless. The rituals however do defiantly help to resolve multiple spells a turn, whether this be early game or after casting an ad nauseum (or making it possible to cast the ad nauseum) or getting Edgar into play they have always been useful and I’ve yet to be disappointed to see one.
Regarding Cover of Darkness I think its ok, its’s a card that’s completely dead in some situations and in others can provide your whole team with evasion against the entire table. Because it can be a complete dead card to I could totally see cutting it. If it works it’s pretty powerful though. Also like stated above, I like forcing people wrath earlier rather than later (=losing less resources). If this card helps me do it that then I’m all for it.
The main problem I have with Goblin Bombardment is that it deals damage to one target only, meaning that for the ‘dealing 120 dmg total’ (3x40) goal Impact Tremors, Zulaport Cutthroat, Throne of the God-Pharaoh and Price of Progress all have more potential. Even Metallic Mimic provides more damage as it gives +1 per creature and can attack itself (+ is a vamp therefore can receive boosts). In all given examples (Propaganda / Ghostly Prison and Terminus) I’d still argue that Impact Tremors, Zulaport Cutthroat (and co, with sac outlet), Throne of the God-Pharaoh and Price of Progress have a higher dmg output because they deal dmg to each opponent, which adds up to a higher total. Of course setting up a cutthroat with bombardment is very nice but not something we can consistently do as I don’t think we will ever be tutoring for either effect (or do you guys do this?).
However having said that….. due to your comments I figured that goblin bombardment can seriously mess with combat calculations, which does make me want to try him.
Of course these are only one man’s thoughts so I’d love to hear how you guys feel about this. Since every single list I’ve seen here runs Bombardment I must be at least be wrong in that regard.
Impact Tremors could be more efficient since you don't have to sac creatures and thus does guarantee damage, but Bombardment simply adds some versatility in the sense that the when you use it can mess with an opponent in more ways than just life.
Throne of the God-Pharaoh is more awkward I'd say, sure in an ideal situation it can do a bunch but your attacking with small vampires and they need to survive in order to get the trigger. It's a nonbo with Reconnaissance, since that untaps, so at 'most' it will just encourage blocks where in other situations you can chip through.
There is potential in these cards as alternatives but sometimes damage alone isn't enough. I will note that I quite often have both Bombardment and a Blood Artist/Zulaport Cutthroat on board, which with Cruel Celebrant is going to be even more likely, without tutoring for one of these.
@Spacebeest
Aside from discussing these cards, do you have your full list somewhere?
Note though that I'm still very actively tweaking this list as less than a month ago I was still playing Twilight Prophet and Kalitas, Traiotr of Geth
I tutor for Necropotence, which often, along with the other card draw in this deck, helps me draw these cards to pair with Goblin Bombardment. The other thing is Bombardment can target creatures, which can be useful since we don’t really run any creature removal. Finally, I play cards that are fine to sacrifice like:
A lot of times board wipes can set this deck back. If you play a metallic mimic and your opponent plays a wrath, that mimic contributed to 0 damage against your opponents. Also a wrath destroys mimic and not bombardment. If you play a mimic and don’t have enough mana to attack through a pillow fort he deals 0 damage to your opponents.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'm just going to try Bombardment out and see for myself how well the card performs. It's always best to support an argument with actual test results and as it seems to be working for you guys I'm gonna try it out.
I do want to trow two more arguments in there, because I can't let it slip
- Mimic should definitely not be played as a last card before a board wipe, but rather the first one after it.
- Bombardment does provide an alternative way of attack and I'm sure that I'm happy having him when facing Propaganda / Ghostly Prison and Terminus. I'm just not sure if I'm also happy with him if I'm not facing these cards but I'm gonna test this out and see for myself. I guess this is mainly because I have not been too impressed with Blood artist either, as this also suffers from dealing damage to one person only.
Edit: When running all 4 the Cutthroats I'm sure you want a third sac outlet and then Bombardment is probably the best option.