People think aggro is worthless? Then they're just not doing it right, or they don't understand it.
Both of you understand well that having a follow-up (or protective measures) to your aggression is important, as it is pretty pointless to be all-in at a typical multiplayer game.
People think aggro is worthless? Then they're just not doing it right, or they don't understand it.
Both of you understand well that having a follow-up (or protective measures) to your aggression is important, as it is pretty pointless to be all-in at a typical multiplayer game.
Most agro is worthless.
Voltron is not agro.
Making infinite token and attacking is not agro.
Straight up casting creatures and going red zone before control can take over or combo can smash the table? That is agro, and few decks can churn out the raw power that Edgar Markov can. Moat agro builds can't finish off a table of 4, in my experience.
As I wrote pages and months ago, I have had games with turn 1 sol ring, turn 2 Door of Destinies, turn 3 a pair of one drops and a pair of two drops (4 counters on the door resulting in eight 5/5's), turn five Edgar (making 6/6's, and he was now a 9/9), swing all out and add +1/+1 counters... and you see a turn five that hits with eight 7/7's (56 power) and a 10/10 Edgar. What other decks can do that?
Another game had a "slow start" with a Scry temple, turn 2 signet, turn 3 purphoros, and then cast one , two, and three drops until the game ends.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
People think aggro is worthless? Then they're just not doing it right, or they don't understand it.
Both of you understand well that having a follow-up (or protective measures) to your aggression is important, as it is pretty pointless to be all-in at a typical multiplayer game.
Most agro is worthless.
Voltron is not agro.
Making infinite token and attacking is not agro.
Straight up casting creatures and going red zone before control can take over or combo can smash the table? That is agro, and few decks can churn out the raw power that Edgar Markov can. Moat agro buolds can't finish off a table of 4, in my experience.
As I wrote pages and months ago, I have had games with turn 1 sol ring, turn 2 Door of Destinies, turn 3 a pair of one drops and a pair of two drops (4 counters on the door resulting in eight 5/5's), turn five Edgar (making 6/6's, and he was now a 9/9), swing all out and add +1/+1 counters... and you see a turn five that hits with eight 7/7's (56 power) and a 10/10 Edgar. What other decks can do that?
Another game had a "slow start" with a Scry temple, turn 2 signet, turn 3 purphoros, and then cast one , two, and three drops until the game ends.
I sense a kindred spirit. Yeah, most aggro isn't good unless it can pressure the control and combo players hard enough before they can get themselves going.
Voltron isn't aggro, but I personally don't consider it to be good because of the tempo loss you get from being sufficiently disrupted.
Good Edgar builds are one of the few aggro decks (my own Xenagos included) that I respect because they can take out players very quickly and getting rid of their board state is only a very temporary setback.
How is the removal package treating you? I find that I face more cards that are essentially hate cards against me and so I'm somewhat forced to run 8 pieces of removal.
I sense a kindred spirit. Yeah, most aggro isn't good unless it can pressure the control and combo players hard enough before they can get themselves going.
Voltron isn't aggro, but I personally don't consider it to be good because of the tempo loss you get from being sufficiently disrupted.
Good Edgar builds are one of the few aggro decks (my own Xenagos included) that I respect because they can take out players very quickly and getting rid of their board state is only a very temporary setback.
How is the removal package treating you? I find that I face more cards that are essentially hate cards against me and so I'm somewhat forced to run 8 pieces of removal.
When I get a chance to play, we have 4 player pods with money down for store credit.
I bring Edgar, Mizzix, and Breya as my three decks for the night and we don't sideboard, so I don't see as much Edgar hate.
Also, the other two Edgar decks I have seen are still stuck in the Value Vamps build.
People know how explosive my deck can get, but they also know they don't have to face it every weekend and have to plan for it.
As far as my removal goes, I have Swords, Path, and then the "any permanent" removal in the forms of Anguished Unmaking, Vindicate, etc.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I have been meaning to find a replacement for Twilight Prophet for a bit now. Really I need to get a bit more testing in for this deck but I just don't get that many opportunities to play against people playing solid decks that I feel its fair to justify playing this deck of late lol.
DECK CHANGE:
Twilight Prophet -> Obelisk of Urd while the Obelisk is a 6 drop, really I can think of a lot of turns where I might cast three vampires in a turn and the fact that I could potentially use them as a resource to cast this without paying mana sounds interesting to me. I am always hesitant to add more 4+ mana cards to the deck but in all reality I can think of a lot of cases where I might be able to cheaply or free cast the obelisk in a turn and still make a good solid attack to follow it up. Twilight Prophet has been too slow to give its effect and the low curve of this deck makes the life siphon effect not as impressive here either. Being that a 4 drop creature is often sort of the top of the curve I just want something to give a little more impact a little faster than this was doing.
I am not entirely sure this is the direction to go but I have wanted to at least get around to testing the Obelisk at some point. It still might be a pain in the ass from the standpoint of effects that might cost me six life when I see this but I feel like I won't actually have to pay six mana to cast it which makes me want to test it.
I think the Obelisk of Urd might be a good idea since it can be cast for basically 0, negating the fact that it's a 6 costed spell. If you tap 6 vampires to spend no mana on it, you're seriously pumping the rest of your vampires. So those 6 1/1's end up providing higher amounts of combat damage than just having them as 1/1's in combat than 1/1's tapped while the other available vampires get +2/+2 each.
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I think the Obelisk of Urd might be a good idea since it can be cast for basically 0, negating the fact that it's a 6 costed spell. If you tap 6 vampires to spend no mana on it, you're seriously pumping the rest of your vampires. So those 6 1/1's end up providing higher amounts of combat damage than just having them as 1/1's in combat than 1/1's tapped while the other available vampires get +2/+2 each.
Putting it this way it does make sense as a feasible add. The convoke cost allows those ~6 creatures to count for more than they would in combat. I like that logic. Definitely worth testing.
I got to thinking today.... I own The Abyss and while its not an aggro card it might be something that would work really well in this deck. I guess I am interested to hear what others think of if they had a copy of The Abyss would they run it in this deck?
Generally speaking about this card:
We get a lot of extra free bodies that could easily be sacrificed to it.
It hits us last
It can be played re-actively in a way where we probably know the outcome.
Again, I don't know how well it fits given this is an aggro deck but I could see it potentially throwing off our opponents and slowing them down. I figured I would see what others think about it. Call to the Grave / Magus of the Abyss would be I guess the less efficient budget options of it but I think they probably lose enough power that I would question them quite a bit more. I suppose Grave Pact could also be considered as a similar or alternative card to this. I guess we could talk about any of these if anyone is interested or if anyone is already running them I would be interested to hear about the results.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Likely not running the Abyss for budget reasons but it's effect feels a bit meta depending. Any aggro strategies will probably be slowed down only a tad bit, unless you sacrifice more slots to Grave Pact like effects in additions to it, which feels against the low curve strategy of what the deck tries to do. Also, looking at what you hope to target with other decks, you'll likely be removing some mana dorks before you get to the things you want gone making it feel slow.
One of my banes with the deck has been running into is the occasional (Madcap into) Platinum Emperion/Platinum Angel, Abyss won't help really against that since it can't hit artifact creatures even if it's their only creature on the board. So I'd rather have a more versatile and targeted removal over the Abyss.
I think I would have liked this card more if it's ability read "Each opponent loses 1 life, and you gain that much life.". It's kind of lackluster as an 0/3. Not quite up to par imo.
Will you add the m19 Vampire neonate to your list?
Personally, I think the fact that it requires buffs to swing for anything makes it a sub-par choice. The bleed effect is a cherry on top, but having to pay to activate it is not what I want to be spending my mana on, either. To be fair though, all it would take is 1 power for me to play it.
I am in agreement with the others posting that Vampire neonate feels like it would be hard to justify with its drop in power. I would rather have a 1/1 than a 0/3 and I believe there are still a few one drops I am not running. The ability on it seems a little lacking fro the drop in stats as I don't really envision using that ability unless things are going really poorly for me at which point, its probably still a poor ability that isn't going to dig me out of the problem situation I would be in.
I guess I will just continue to own this damn Abyss (I have had it for like 2+ years and never found a place to play it lol)
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How about Bloodtracker from C18? Costs 4 but it's a vampire with card advantage attached.
Its too slow still. We aren't really sac based so it would be hard to control when he leaves play. It could do amusing things if you play him into commander in play but ultimately it just doesn't do enough fast enough. When it comes to four+ cost vamps I really want a big upfront value or some sort of really big pay off. I see this card and I feel like I would rather run Greed (which I don't want to run).
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I think The Abyss is too overcosted at 4 with a deck that's trying to keep a ridiculously low mana curve.
As for Vampire Neonate, it's a 1-costed vampire that can still sting opponents for one without even needing to attack. So it's basically attacking all opponents for free just by tapping. The life gain is irrelevant.
EDIT:
Well, not for free, but 2 isn't that much to hit all opponents for 1 life on a 1-costed vampire.
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I think The Abyss is too overcosted at 4 with a deck that's trying to keep a ridiculously low mana curve.
As for Vampire Neonate, it's a 1-costed vampire that can still sting opponents for one without even needing to attack. So it's basically attacking all opponents for free just by tapping. The life gain is irrelevant.
If you're going for a "Fish Build", where you use a lot of interaction to keep your weenies safe, then I could see the Neonate getting play. I don't think that's the best, just because we don't have Blue to stop disasters from happening. This is why the answer to me is always play more threats.
I don’t know if there’s an updated list somewhere but the list on the first page doesn’t have Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage, which surprised me with how many tutors and card draw this deck has. Hexmage is a vampire with first strike who can also be used to kill a planeswalker or other things, and we could potentially get a turn 2 Marit Liege with Urborg. Plus, Boros charm could allow us to swing for 40 with Marit Liege!
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I think The Abyss is too overcosted at 4 with a deck that's trying to keep a ridiculously low mana curve.
As for Vampire Neonate, it's a 1-costed vampire that can still sting opponents for one without even needing to attack. So it's basically attacking all opponents for free just by tapping. The life gain is irrelevant.
EDIT:
Well, not for free, but 2 isn't that much to hit all opponents for 1 life on a 1-costed vampire.
The cost is still not nothing. The times in which I would be willing to ever use such an ability would only really be situations I am not doing very well and I think its better to just play a one drop with better stats than for a mana dump that probably is not worth activating in most cases.
I have been trying out Metallic Mimic but ultimately, I really don't think its going to pan out in the long run. The loss of the free tokens is really HUGE. The vampire lords who give tokens and buff are so much stronger its not even close to compare them. When it comes to non creature effects I really need them to have a bigger effect than the single buff that most anthems do.
I don’t know if there’s an updated list somewhere but the list on the first page doesn’t have Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage, which surprised me with how many tutors and card draw this deck has. Hexmage is a vampire with first strike who can also be used to kill a planeswalker or other things, and we could potentially get a turn 2 Marit Liege with Urborg. Plus, Boros charm could allow us to swing for 40 with Marit Liege!
The OP is up to date. I don't play Dark Depths / Vampire Hexmage because both cards don't measure up to my expectations outside of assembling both together. When it comes to tutors, I would rather tutor for things the deck actually wants than to assume I can spend two tutors to set up something that is a gimmick easily answered by cheap spot removal. Dark Depths isn't just mildly poor card for this deck, its almost entirely a dead card without a follow up enabler and so while the hexmage might be ok as a standalone card in this deck I don't play this because it still requires both cards for them to do really anything and I am not willing to tutor these cards up. The token that is made is also really not that hard to disrupt or remove either.
Boros Charm - its ok if you want to play it. I don't play it though because of how proactive I end up being with this deck I almost never have extra mana left over. Keeping up that two colorled mana every turn could put you off of playing a lot of action otherwise. I don't like those kind of spells because outside of situational wrath protection (it doesn't stop exile, sac, tuck, -x/-x wraths) I think its actually a very lacking card for the deck. If your opponents run non traditional wraths these sort of protections can be entirely ignored. I remember a game last week I was playing a mono black deck and I used Volrath's Stronghold to rez and use Kagemaro, First to Suffer four or five times against a Archangel Avacyn deck and it was funny to see his protections never work.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Hello again! I wanted to ask some questions and make some points:
1) Mox Diamond - I never have anything but bad luck with this card. I only have one and only use it in Mizzix, where I normally only cast it off an Enter the Infinite to finish a win.
In normal decks, it feels like I always get opening hands with two lands and Mox Diamond, which means I almost always also never see a third land any time soon, so the turn one ramp was worse than having a talisman, and I play 35 lands to your 34. Am I just unlucky? Am I doing it wrong?
2) Idyllic Tutor - Is this worth it? It seems like another way to get Necro, Purphoros, Goblin Wardrums, Shared Animosity (on my wishlist) is strong. Also, while not as strong as Grim Tutor, it is more budget friendly and is easier to cast off of a sol ring or mana crypt.
I have one, but wasn't sure if it was worth slotting something out for.
3) When do the following cards trasition from "really nice in a more casual setting" to "nit good enough for a more competitive setting"? I know the answer is somewhat self explanitory in the question... the difference is when you get more competitive... but these cards are so much fun and on flavor:
Door of Destinies
Anoited Procession
Vanquisher's Banner
Dark Prophecy
Glory of Warfare
Coat of Arms
On a budget, which expands over the last eight months, I always have to make cuts as I add more cards from your list to my list. Sometimes it is easy: Cut the gigher cmc vamps for lower cmc vamps, or cut burst card draw like Ancient Craving for fast tutors and Necro. Other times it is more difficult.
5) It seems like you have really tweaked the deck to be mostly creatures, tutors, card draw, and anthems/evasion. It seems like there is little to no room for removal or responces. How wise is it to just go all in like that? To have almost no instant speed removal for combos and roadblocks like prison effects and ensaring bridges? I felt safer having mana up for swords, disenchant, or boros charm while not tapping out to vomit my hand and hoping for the best.
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Thanks for this thread. I have really enjoied building and hunting down cards for this deck off and on over the last eight months or so. This has become one of my favorite decks.
EDIT: The Abyss is a card which has not aged well. My wife bought one last year when somebody brought one from the states, and I don't blame her, as it is a classic reserve list card which has risen in value. It was at $200 for a long time, shot up to $2k for a short time and has settled around $1,200 more or less for now. A thousand dollar increase is nothing to laugh at. No doubt it has done the same for you uf you bought it two years ago.
Seriosuly though... agro decks can churn out tokens/creatures quickly. Voltron decks have hexproof which avoid the target aspect of the Abyss. They CHOOSE, yes, but what they choose is a legal TARGET for the abyss, whuch it cannot target hexproof. Finally, as was said before, the amount of quality artifact creatures has gone up in the last 8+ years compared to 2010 and before.
It really is not as good as it once was, and there is no way I would slow down Edgar to cast a card which makes us sac pur tokens... when the whole point of the deck is to cast one and twp drops so we can get tokens. What are we even doing then?
So, if you want to use The Abyss, look at some Sulti (GBU) decks. They enjoy that card.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
He’s not a vampire, but would gray merchant of asphodel make any sense? His affect hits each opponent, and we gain the combined life loss. I know we have cards that aren’t black, but we have:
He’s not a vampire, but would gray merchant of asphodel make any sense? His affect hits each opponent, and we gain the combined life loss. I know we have cards that aren’t black, but we have:
I have been considering Gary in my build but it is very hard to justify a 5 drop in Edgar. A lot of your suggested cards might not be in other builds, such as Vampire Nocturnus due to how unreliable it is. While we might have a lot of pips in the deck, that can't be guaranteed with how our board state ends up. There have been a few games where most of my board were tokens because my Vampires were getting picked off but the tokens kept getting in. Meanwhile, in my list, my 5+ drops are Malakir Bloodwitch for the Gary-like ability, Champion of Dusk for the hand redraw, Austere Command for very modular Wrath and Eldrazi Monument for its absurd utility and power. I find that each of those cards work decently well in a vacuum, which is sort of how you need to evaluate cards when your deck continually tosses them into a meat grinder. Gary does not work well alone, he needs other cards and this deck cannot guarantee them.
Hello again! I wanted to ask some questions and make some points:
1) Mox Diamond - I never have anything but bad luck with this card. I only have one and only use it in Mizzix, where I normally only cast it off an Enter the Infinite to finish a win.
In normal decks, it feels like I always get opening hands with two lands and Mox Diamond, which means I almost always also never see a third land any time soon, so the turn one ramp was worse than having a talisman, and I play 35 lands to your 34. Am I just unlucky? Am I doing it wrong?
2) Idyllic Tutor - Is this worth it? It seems like another way to get Necro, Purphoros, Goblin Wardrums, Shared Animosity (on my wishlist) is strong. Also, while not as strong as Grim Tutor, it is more budget friendly and is easier to cast off of a sol ring or mana crypt.
I have one, but wasn't sure if it was worth slotting something out for.
3) When do the following cards trasition from "really nice in a more casual setting" to "nit good enough for a more competitive setting"? I know the answer is somewhat self explanitory in the question... the difference is when you get more competitive... but these cards are so much fun and on flavor:
Door of Destinies
Anoited Procession
Vanquisher's Banner
Dark Prophecy
Glory of Warfare
Coat of Arms
On a budget, which expands over the last eight months, I always have to make cuts as I add more cards from your list to my list. Sometimes it is easy: Cut the gigher cmc vamps for lower cmc vamps, or cut burst card draw like Ancient Craving for fast tutors and Necro. Other times it is more difficult.
5) It seems like you have really tweaked the deck to be mostly creatures, tutors, card draw, and anthems/evasion. It seems like there is little to no room for removal or responces. How wise is it to just go all in like that? To have almost no instant speed removal for combos and roadblocks like prison effects and ensaring bridges? I felt safer having mana up for swords, disenchant, or boros charm while not tapping out to vomit my hand and hoping for the best.
========
Thanks for this thread. I have really enjoied building and hunting down cards for this deck off and on over the last eight months or so. This has become one of my favorite decks.
EDIT: The Abyss is a card which has not aged well. My wife bought one last year when somebody brought one from the states, and I don't blame her, as it is a classic reserve list card which has risen in value. It was at $200 for a long time, shot up to $2k for a short time and has settled around $1,200 more or less for now. A thousand dollar increase is nothing to laugh at. No doubt it has done the same for you uf you bought it two years ago.
Seriosuly though... agro decks can churn out tokens/creatures quickly. Voltron decks have hexproof which avoid the target aspect of the Abyss. They CHOOSE, yes, but what they choose is a legal TARGET for the abyss, whuch it cannot target hexproof. Finally, as was said before, the amount of quality artifact creatures has gone up in the last 8+ years compared to 2010 and before.
It really is not as good as it once was, and there is no way I would slow down Edgar to cast a card which makes us sac pur tokens... when the whole point of the deck is to cast one and twp drops so we can get tokens. What are we even doing then?
So, if you want to use The Abyss, look at some Sulti (GBU) decks. They enjoy that card.
Sorry I kept meaning to reply to you and not getting around to it lol.
Mox Diamond - It has still been really good for me but again I focus a lot on getting draw (especially Necropotence) online. I run a lot of expensive tutors and I often mulligan kind of heavily for draw. I think if you are not finding the draw to back it up the answer is probably no but right now I still have kind of a high success rate of getting my draw online but assuming you are not it might shift how useful this is for you.
Idyllic Tutor - the effect is fine, the mana cost is questionable. It seems very unlikely that you are going to be able to tutor and play the card you tutor for in the same turn. I would say its probably at about the breaking point where it seems like the answer is probably no. Beseech the Queen also costs three (although its way more mana intensive) but it also gives a more versatile tutor. I think that in general when you get to three mana with tutors though you are slowing down a lot so I think its probably a little too slow for how fast we want to be moving.
Budget - there is nothing wrong with being on a budget. For the most part I have been lucky in that I have been playing commander for a long time and a lot of these cards didn't always used to be expensive. Most of the actual vampires in this list are really cheap. I think about the only expensive thing I piced up for this list was Imperial Seal and I only did that because of how far it dropped for the judge promo. There are a LOT of cards in this list that I wouldn't really advise to pick up unless you have everything else and want to try them out (bob).
Being aggro heavy / response light - the problem is that in a lot of cases answers will sit in our hand and not be used until we are in a pinch. I also have a heavy number of tutors which can tutor for the answers if I need them. It depends a little on what the normal kind of decks in your meta are though as an example if you see TONS of pillowfort / Silent Arbiter / Crawlspace / Aether Flash then you would need more answers as a whole. My point in going super in heavy with being an aggressive deck is that running a higher density of answers will in fact slow you down and make you more susceptible to removal from your opponents. You really want to try to race them with this deck rather than trading value because so much of the power of our commander is getting those free tokens when we cast vampires as well as the potential to act as a massive anthem for our vampires we get a lot more value in being aggressive.
Also if I happen to have a good means of draw in play I am going to mash as many bodies into play each turn. I don't care if someone has an Oracle of Mul Daya or something I would rather put 2 bodies in play than Swords to Plowshares that creature because I literally don't care that he has value online. I am going to try to hobo murder the hell out of him instead.
If you are playing against fast combo I guess all I can say is that even if you were to run answers, there is no way that it would be a better plan for vampires than just being as fast as you can. You can't afford to keep mana up and not keep casting your creatures in the case that they fire off an infinite mana combo the next turn. If you do go up against infinite combos that go off before you can kill them I guess the small bit of help I can be would be to maybe try some of the cards that you can cheat in or pay for later like Slaughter Pact potentially. You won't be able to keep your mana up and or have the extent of answers you want vs combo that you would need to make me think you are better off running more answers vs combo. Vampires are at their best when going completely all out and seeing if they can win a race rather than trying to respond. To a much larger extent I think you would be better off trying something like Duress / Thoughtsize vs combo than you would spot removal but even then I think its a bad idea.
The Abyss - Yea, I just keep sitting on it and not playing it. I really didn't buy it to try to collect this game. I should move it probably given that I continue to not find a spot that it ever seems to fit.
I am glad you have enjoyed it. I will try to keep an eye on Mox Diamond a bit closer in the future but I don't play this deck too frequently in part because a lot of players in my meta have a hard time with my slower more fair decks. I try not to play over them any more than I have to given this.
He’s not a vampire, but would gray merchant of asphodel make any sense? His affect hits each opponent, and we gain the combined life loss. I know we have cards that aren’t black, but we have:
I have considered it and I agree with Tev that there are just a lot of potential cards that "could" be run in this same mana range. I think Eldrazi Monument is my favorite one that I don't actually run but there are situations that Gary could be far better. If someone were running pillowfort tactics for instance Gary could be a good fix as an answer to getting past their taxation to attack them. The fact that Gary still doesn't count our tokens and or a good portion of other creatures / effects we run though is why I never pulled the trigger. While Malakir Bloodwitch is completely crazy I assume Gary would only give me about 1/3 the effect.
At one point I went through my list and I think I assessed something like only 1/3 of a chance that Vampire Nocturnus would be active. He is really hilarious with Necropotence (you can exile the top card until the top is black) but lets face it..... any situation with Necropotence in this deck tends to be fairly strong.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Fantastic job with this list! I'm finalizing a similar list and would appreciate some advice. I would like to add a few more vampires if any are viable. If you were to add four of the following vampires with your current manabase, which would you choose? (if i've missed any let me know) Bold Impaler, Falkenrath Gorger, Carrier Thrall, Martyr of Dusk, Vampire Hexmage, Gifted Aetherborn, Kalastria Highborn, Stromkirk Condemned. Also does deathtouch and 3 toughness makes up for gifted aetherborn's lack of reach/first strike?
Both of you understand well that having a follow-up (or protective measures) to your aggression is important, as it is pretty pointless to be all-in at a typical multiplayer game.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Most agro is worthless.
Voltron is not agro.
Making infinite token and attacking is not agro.
Straight up casting creatures and going red zone before control can take over or combo can smash the table? That is agro, and few decks can churn out the raw power that Edgar Markov can. Moat agro builds can't finish off a table of 4, in my experience.
As I wrote pages and months ago, I have had games with turn 1 sol ring, turn 2 Door of Destinies, turn 3 a pair of one drops and a pair of two drops (4 counters on the door resulting in eight 5/5's), turn five Edgar (making 6/6's, and he was now a 9/9), swing all out and add +1/+1 counters... and you see a turn five that hits with eight 7/7's (56 power) and a 10/10 Edgar. What other decks can do that?
Another game had a "slow start" with a Scry temple, turn 2 signet, turn 3 purphoros, and then cast one , two, and three drops until the game ends.
I sense a kindred spirit. Yeah, most aggro isn't good unless it can pressure the control and combo players hard enough before they can get themselves going.
Voltron isn't aggro, but I personally don't consider it to be good because of the tempo loss you get from being sufficiently disrupted.
Good Edgar builds are one of the few aggro decks (my own Xenagos included) that I respect because they can take out players very quickly and getting rid of their board state is only a very temporary setback.
How is the removal package treating you? I find that I face more cards that are essentially hate cards against me and so I'm somewhat forced to run 8 pieces of removal.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
When I get a chance to play, we have 4 player pods with money down for store credit.
I bring Edgar, Mizzix, and Breya as my three decks for the night and we don't sideboard, so I don't see as much Edgar hate.
Also, the other two Edgar decks I have seen are still stuck in the Value Vamps build.
People know how explosive my deck can get, but they also know they don't have to face it every weekend and have to plan for it.
As far as my removal goes, I have Swords, Path, and then the "any permanent" removal in the forms of Anguished Unmaking, Vindicate, etc.
DECK CHANGE:
I am not entirely sure this is the direction to go but I have wanted to at least get around to testing the Obelisk at some point. It still might be a pain in the ass from the standpoint of effects that might cost me six life when I see this but I feel like I won't actually have to pay six mana to cast it which makes me want to test it.
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[Modern] Allies
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Putting it this way it does make sense as a feasible add. The convoke cost allows those ~6 creatures to count for more than they would in combat. I like that logic. Definitely worth testing.
Generally speaking about this card:
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[Modern] Allies
One of my banes with the deck has been running into is the occasional (Madcap into) Platinum Emperion/Platinum Angel, Abyss won't help really against that since it can't hit artifact creatures even if it's their only creature on the board. So I'd rather have a more versatile and targeted removal over the Abyss.
Personally, I think the fact that it requires buffs to swing for anything makes it a sub-par choice. The bleed effect is a cherry on top, but having to pay to activate it is not what I want to be spending my mana on, either. To be fair though, all it would take is 1 power for me to play it.
I am in agreement with the others posting that Vampire neonate feels like it would be hard to justify with its drop in power. I would rather have a 1/1 than a 0/3 and I believe there are still a few one drops I am not running. The ability on it seems a little lacking fro the drop in stats as I don't really envision using that ability unless things are going really poorly for me at which point, its probably still a poor ability that isn't going to dig me out of the problem situation I would be in.
I guess I will just continue to own this damn Abyss (I have had it for like 2+ years and never found a place to play it lol)
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[Modern] Allies
Its too slow still. We aren't really sac based so it would be hard to control when he leaves play. It could do amusing things if you play him into commander in play but ultimately it just doesn't do enough fast enough. When it comes to four+ cost vamps I really want a big upfront value or some sort of really big pay off. I see this card and I feel like I would rather run Greed (which I don't want to run).
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[Modern] Allies
As for Vampire Neonate, it's a 1-costed vampire that can still sting opponents for one without even needing to attack. So it's basically attacking all opponents for free just by tapping. The life gain is irrelevant.
EDIT:
Well, not for free, but 2 isn't that much to hit all opponents for 1 life on a 1-costed vampire.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
The cost is still not nothing. The times in which I would be willing to ever use such an ability would only really be situations I am not doing very well and I think its better to just play a one drop with better stats than for a mana dump that probably is not worth activating in most cases.
I have been trying out Metallic Mimic but ultimately, I really don't think its going to pan out in the long run. The loss of the free tokens is really HUGE. The vampire lords who give tokens and buff are so much stronger its not even close to compare them. When it comes to non creature effects I really need them to have a bigger effect than the single buff that most anthems do.
The OP is up to date. I don't play Dark Depths / Vampire Hexmage because both cards don't measure up to my expectations outside of assembling both together. When it comes to tutors, I would rather tutor for things the deck actually wants than to assume I can spend two tutors to set up something that is a gimmick easily answered by cheap spot removal. Dark Depths isn't just mildly poor card for this deck, its almost entirely a dead card without a follow up enabler and so while the hexmage might be ok as a standalone card in this deck I don't play this because it still requires both cards for them to do really anything and I am not willing to tutor these cards up. The token that is made is also really not that hard to disrupt or remove either.
Boros Charm - its ok if you want to play it. I don't play it though because of how proactive I end up being with this deck I almost never have extra mana left over. Keeping up that two colorled mana every turn could put you off of playing a lot of action otherwise. I don't like those kind of spells because outside of situational wrath protection (it doesn't stop exile, sac, tuck, -x/-x wraths) I think its actually a very lacking card for the deck. If your opponents run non traditional wraths these sort of protections can be entirely ignored. I remember a game last week I was playing a mono black deck and I used Volrath's Stronghold to rez and use Kagemaro, First to Suffer four or five times against a Archangel Avacyn deck and it was funny to see his protections never work.
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1) Mox Diamond - I never have anything but bad luck with this card. I only have one and only use it in Mizzix, where I normally only cast it off an Enter the Infinite to finish a win.
In normal decks, it feels like I always get opening hands with two lands and Mox Diamond, which means I almost always also never see a third land any time soon, so the turn one ramp was worse than having a talisman, and I play 35 lands to your 34. Am I just unlucky? Am I doing it wrong?
2) Idyllic Tutor - Is this worth it? It seems like another way to get Necro, Purphoros, Goblin Wardrums, Shared Animosity (on my wishlist) is strong. Also, while not as strong as Grim Tutor, it is more budget friendly and is easier to cast off of a sol ring or mana crypt.
I have one, but wasn't sure if it was worth slotting something out for.
3) When do the following cards trasition from "really nice in a more casual setting" to "nit good enough for a more competitive setting"? I know the answer is somewhat self explanitory in the question... the difference is when you get more competitive... but these cards are so much fun and on flavor:
Door of Destinies
Anoited Procession
Vanquisher's Banner
Dark Prophecy
Glory of Warfare
Coat of Arms
On a budget, which expands over the last eight months, I always have to make cuts as I add more cards from your list to my list. Sometimes it is easy: Cut the gigher cmc vamps for lower cmc vamps, or cut burst card draw like Ancient Craving for fast tutors and Necro. Other times it is more difficult.
5) It seems like you have really tweaked the deck to be mostly creatures, tutors, card draw, and anthems/evasion. It seems like there is little to no room for removal or responces. How wise is it to just go all in like that? To have almost no instant speed removal for combos and roadblocks like prison effects and ensaring bridges? I felt safer having mana up for swords, disenchant, or boros charm while not tapping out to vomit my hand and hoping for the best.
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Thanks for this thread. I have really enjoied building and hunting down cards for this deck off and on over the last eight months or so. This has become one of my favorite decks.
EDIT: The Abyss is a card which has not aged well. My wife bought one last year when somebody brought one from the states, and I don't blame her, as it is a classic reserve list card which has risen in value. It was at $200 for a long time, shot up to $2k for a short time and has settled around $1,200 more or less for now. A thousand dollar increase is nothing to laugh at. No doubt it has done the same for you uf you bought it two years ago.
Seriosuly though... agro decks can churn out tokens/creatures quickly. Voltron decks have hexproof which avoid the target aspect of the Abyss. They CHOOSE, yes, but what they choose is a legal TARGET for the abyss, whuch it cannot target hexproof. Finally, as was said before, the amount of quality artifact creatures has gone up in the last 8+ years compared to 2010 and before.
It really is not as good as it once was, and there is no way I would slow down Edgar to cast a card which makes us sac pur tokens... when the whole point of the deck is to cast one and twp drops so we can get tokens. What are we even doing then?
So, if you want to use The Abyss, look at some Sulti (GBU) decks. They enjoy that card.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Sorry I kept meaning to reply to you and not getting around to it lol.
Mox Diamond - It has still been really good for me but again I focus a lot on getting draw (especially Necropotence) online. I run a lot of expensive tutors and I often mulligan kind of heavily for draw. I think if you are not finding the draw to back it up the answer is probably no but right now I still have kind of a high success rate of getting my draw online but assuming you are not it might shift how useful this is for you.
Idyllic Tutor - the effect is fine, the mana cost is questionable. It seems very unlikely that you are going to be able to tutor and play the card you tutor for in the same turn. I would say its probably at about the breaking point where it seems like the answer is probably no. Beseech the Queen also costs three (although its way more mana intensive) but it also gives a more versatile tutor. I think that in general when you get to three mana with tutors though you are slowing down a lot so I think its probably a little too slow for how fast we want to be moving.
Budget - there is nothing wrong with being on a budget. For the most part I have been lucky in that I have been playing commander for a long time and a lot of these cards didn't always used to be expensive. Most of the actual vampires in this list are really cheap. I think about the only expensive thing I piced up for this list was Imperial Seal and I only did that because of how far it dropped for the judge promo. There are a LOT of cards in this list that I wouldn't really advise to pick up unless you have everything else and want to try them out (bob).
Being aggro heavy / response light - the problem is that in a lot of cases answers will sit in our hand and not be used until we are in a pinch. I also have a heavy number of tutors which can tutor for the answers if I need them. It depends a little on what the normal kind of decks in your meta are though as an example if you see TONS of pillowfort / Silent Arbiter / Crawlspace / Aether Flash then you would need more answers as a whole. My point in going super in heavy with being an aggressive deck is that running a higher density of answers will in fact slow you down and make you more susceptible to removal from your opponents. You really want to try to race them with this deck rather than trading value because so much of the power of our commander is getting those free tokens when we cast vampires as well as the potential to act as a massive anthem for our vampires we get a lot more value in being aggressive.
Also if I happen to have a good means of draw in play I am going to mash as many bodies into play each turn. I don't care if someone has an Oracle of Mul Daya or something I would rather put 2 bodies in play than Swords to Plowshares that creature because I literally don't care that he has value online. I am going to try to hobo murder the hell out of him instead.
If you are playing against fast combo I guess all I can say is that even if you were to run answers, there is no way that it would be a better plan for vampires than just being as fast as you can. You can't afford to keep mana up and not keep casting your creatures in the case that they fire off an infinite mana combo the next turn. If you do go up against infinite combos that go off before you can kill them I guess the small bit of help I can be would be to maybe try some of the cards that you can cheat in or pay for later like Slaughter Pact potentially. You won't be able to keep your mana up and or have the extent of answers you want vs combo that you would need to make me think you are better off running more answers vs combo. Vampires are at their best when going completely all out and seeing if they can win a race rather than trying to respond. To a much larger extent I think you would be better off trying something like Duress / Thoughtsize vs combo than you would spot removal but even then I think its a bad idea.
The Abyss - Yea, I just keep sitting on it and not playing it. I really didn't buy it to try to collect this game. I should move it probably given that I continue to not find a spot that it ever seems to fit.
I am glad you have enjoyed it. I will try to keep an eye on Mox Diamond a bit closer in the future but I don't play this deck too frequently in part because a lot of players in my meta have a hard time with my slower more fair decks. I try not to play over them any more than I have to given this.
I have considered it and I agree with Tev that there are just a lot of potential cards that "could" be run in this same mana range. I think Eldrazi Monument is my favorite one that I don't actually run but there are situations that Gary could be far better. If someone were running pillowfort tactics for instance Gary could be a good fix as an answer to getting past their taxation to attack them. The fact that Gary still doesn't count our tokens and or a good portion of other creatures / effects we run though is why I never pulled the trigger. While Malakir Bloodwitch is completely crazy I assume Gary would only give me about 1/3 the effect.
At one point I went through my list and I think I assessed something like only 1/3 of a chance that Vampire Nocturnus would be active. He is really hilarious with Necropotence (you can exile the top card until the top is black) but lets face it..... any situation with Necropotence in this deck tends to be fairly strong.
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[Modern] Allies