Also, I asked on TappedOut but what would your list look like if you were optimized to the ideally strongest level you could run? Your build already looks plenty powerful but I want to know since you claim you're holding back a bit.
The main difference would be Grave Pact/Dictate of Erebos but more sac outlets, more black devotion, mana doublers (Nirkana Revenant, Cabal Coffers, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, etc.), and I'd run Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless as finishers. I would also run Purphoros like you do and rely on combat a lot less.
Basically Edgar would never get cast, my tokens would be fuel/defense, and my tutors would be used on mana doublers and Exsanguinate/Debt but I still wouldn't consider Edgar competetitive in multiplayer. I've just built it easier to interact with and rely on combat currently.
The main difference would be Grave Pact/Dictate of Erebos but more sac outlets, more black devotion, mana doublers (Nirkana Revenant, Cabal Coffers, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, etc.), and I'd run Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless as finishers. I would also run Purphoros like you do and rely on combat a lot less.
Basically Edgar would never get cast, my tokens would be fuel/defense, and my tutors would be used on mana doublers and Exsanguinate/Debt but I still wouldn't consider Edgar competetitive in multiplayer. I've just built it easier to interact with and rely on combat currently.
At that point, what would be the point in playing Edgar? What would he bring that two dozen other commanders wouldn't do better?
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
The main difference would be Grave Pact/Dictate of Erebos but more sac outlets, more black devotion, mana doublers (Nirkana Revenant, Cabal Coffers, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, etc.), and I'd run Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless as finishers. I would also run Purphoros like you do and rely on combat a lot less.
Basically Edgar would never get cast, my tokens would be fuel/defense, and my tutors would be used on mana doublers and Exsanguinate/Debt but I still wouldn't consider Edgar competetitive in multiplayer. I've just built it easier to interact with and rely on combat currently.
At that point, what would be the point in playing Edgar? What would he bring that two dozen other commanders wouldn't do better?
/agreed. It's how I play Ghave and Marchesa and the colors and both commanders are much better for the strategy. Well other than I don't use mana doublers or exsanguinate...
I don't care for Harsh Mercy because I feel like in a lot of situations it does not answer much. Your opponents still keep their best threat and or a wave of tokens. I could see moving to Merciless Eviction or Living Death.
I would also probably try to swap Path to Exile for Anguished Unmaking if you can. There is nothing wrong with path but its not a big mana jump to have a much more versatile removal effect.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa his life total trigger seems like its not that likely to trigger so mostly you have a vanilla vamp with lifelink and some protections. The protections being viable seem mostly towards attacking and defending because nobody wants to use spot removal on this guy anyways because he is kind of close to being vanilla. Honestly, I don't like him much.
Mirri the Cursed Honestly I love the look and feel of her but I question her outside of being kind of cool. Really she is a 4 mana beater and only kind of ok. I totally dig her as far as the style and feel of the card but when it comes to getting things done I question it.
Of the four I would probably cut from the top of that list down. I have not played with any of the four myself though but I feel that most of them feel a little underwhelming.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
You only have a few cards with a continous life loss to utilize effects on them (I counted like.... 3?). For an aggro tribe I think you are worrying about life gain a little too much.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
8 life loss cards are continuous or reusable and throughout games I've found myself to be rather aggressive with my own life total. I also play against several boardwipe.decks and the lifegain gives me time to bounce back because these colors don't recover very fast.
You're probably right though that I went a little overboard with the lifegain. If you were going to suggest what cards to remove and what to add in their place, what would they be?
8 life loss cards are continuous or reusable and throughout games I've found myself to be rather aggressive with my own life total. I also play against several boardwipe.decks and the lifegain gives me time to bounce back because these colors don't recover very fast.
You're probably right though that I went a little overboard with the lifegain. If you were going to suggest what cards to remove and what to add in their place, what would they be?
I went through my list and tried looking at some of the ones that are less in my build because of how I built mine.
Viscera Seer - its a really strong sac outlet and getting a free token off of it as well is nice. Many people view scry as sort of like a 1/3 - 1/2 of a card draw worth of value due to its selection. In this sense Viscera Seer is card selection, sac outlet, a few bodies, and early game pressure.
Bloodghast - Its just really stable due to coming back all the time. If you run anything that generates value off of sacrificing things or triggers off creatures entering (like say Purphoros, God of the Forge) it gets a little stronger. Still, its a sticky vampire that will still be nice to pick up tribal buffs with and it leads to a little faster recovery from wraths.
Falkenrath Noble - It potentially pairs well with the swarm of vampires / tokens that you can make. It can punch in with some evasion too. I think it has a lot more reach than Vampire Nighthawk as they both have the same power and flying but accepting that you probably will get wrathed and this will give you some value when it happens is nice. It does cost one more mana than Vampire Nighthawk but ultimately I think its a lot more aggressive than Nighthawk which is honestly more of a defensive control style of creature.
Your land base is honestly better than mine too (I went greedy with hideaway lands and colorless utility). I think you could cut City of Brass and Mana Confluence because assuming your OP landbase is what you are running I just don't see the need for them. I think that Talisman of Indulgence could also become Mind Stone because I just dont think you need the fixing the Talisman can do and the option to pop the Mind Stone off for draw later in the game I value more than the mana fixing of Talisman given your landbase. I think you are running a few more basics than you really need also assuming you dont play against Ruination / Blood Moon / Back to Basics style of tactics. If you do play against them thats fine keep the basic count high but normally in a three color deck I dont bother keeping such a high basic land count unless I am heavily fetching lands in green with stuff like Cultivate and such.
ISB, first ty for all the advice. I feel bad I won't be taking most of it but I want you to know it's appreciated anyways.
I can agree with the fact that I should run Purphoros, God of the Forge because 4 damage to each opponent for every vampire I play adds up fast. I've purposely powered down this deck and went all-in on an aggro strategy so I can play this deck in underpowered pods (while teaching the importance of running answers) but Purph still deserves a chance to shine.
I'm not sure if the creatures you suggested support my aggro strategy though, other than Bloodghast, which would be in here if I owned a copy. I just don't think he's worth the $15 pricetag in edh. I will be switching out Blood Baron of Vizkopa for Vona, Butcher of Magan when I get a copy though for the added utility.
The deathtouch creatures you're saying are more defensive I'd normally agree with but my 1st tutor target in 95% of games has been Reconnaissance which increases their value as offensive threats that are still available as blockers due to reconnaissance being as busted as it is.
I can agree with the too many basics and City of Brass/Mana Confluence not being needed here though. Looking through your list I'd run Volrath's Stronghold and Strip Mine if I owned copies and I'll make a point of picking them up. Phyrexian Tower I do own and I'll add it to my list (it means sharing 1 copy with 2 decks, but that's what proxies are for). I'm not sure what other utility lands I'd add though so that'd just remove the painlands and 1x swamp.
I've got to ask though... with your emphasis on sac outlets, why no Grave Pact and/or Dictate of Erebos in your list? Without those cards it feels like you went overboard on sac outlets.
ISB, first ty for all the advice. I feel bad I won't be taking most of it but I want you to know it's appreciated anyways.
I can agree with the fact that I should run Purphoros, God of the Forge because 4 damage to each opponent for every vampire I play adds up fast. I've purposely powered down this deck and went all-in on an aggro strategy so I can play this deck in underpowered pods (while teaching the importance of running answers) but Purph still deserves a chance to shine.
I'm not sure if the creatures you suggested support my aggro strategy though, other than Bloodghast, which would be in here if I owned a copy. I just don't think he's worth the $15 pricetag in edh. I will be switching out Blood Baron of Vizkopa for Vona, Butcher of Magan when I get a copy though for the added utility.
The deathtouch creatures you're saying are more defensive I'd normally agree with but my 1st tutor target in 95% of games has been Reconnaissance which increases their value as offensive threats that are still available as blockers due to reconnaissance being as busted as it is.
I can agree with the too many basics and City of Brass/Mana Confluence not being needed here though. Looking through your list I'd run Volrath's Stronghold and Strip Mine if I owned copies and I'll make a point of picking them up. Phyrexian Tower I do own and I'll add it to my list (it means sharing 1 copy with 2 decks, but that's what proxies are for). I'm not sure what other utility lands I'd add though so that'd just remove the painlands and 1x swamp.
I've got to ask though... with your emphasis on sac outlets, why no Grave Pact and/or Dictate of Erebos in your list? Without those cards it feels like you went overboard on sac outlets.
No problem, I totally understand as I often don't take advice of others either. Each person's own list really comes down to what they want to run personally, I only bring it up as some suggestions and something to keep in mind. Sometimes discussion on cards can open up a few ideas and suggestions that we otherwise overlook. There is no real "correct" answer to commander because everyone has their own style of play as well as code of ethics and what they want to do in commander.
It seems a bit odd to me that you like Reconnaissance but cut Iroas, God of Victory. I was wondering if I could get some insight into that change you made. Someone in another one of these Edgar lists also made a suggestion of Cover of Darkness which could also be interesting if you are putting focus into creature combat.
Grave Pact - when it comes to a tribal build, the room I have to play with other cards becomes more limited. It's true that I could play with more Grave Pact effects but ultimately I felt that playign such tactics pushed me in more of a control oriented direction than my goal was. With my build I am trying to red zone my opponents so with that in mind I opted to avoid Grave Pact effects because in a lot of cases I am trying to outrace creature based strategies where Grave Pact is viable. Its something that is always in my mind as a possible and it could still happen. My biggest thing is that anything that is some sort of enabler that is not a vampire in some ways slows down my list.
The following cards in my list enable sac tactics to be stronger:
Being able to turn Bloodghast over with a sac outlet means I can make it ETB for things like Purphoros, God of the Forge / Impact Tremmors as well as generate value off of it being sacrificed. Given all of the fetchlands its possible to turn a sac outlet into multiple creatures entering / dying to my sac value per turn.
Ophiomancer gives a TON of bodies entering and dying to sac outlets for me every turn rotation. I once comboed Ophiomancer with Blood Artist and Viscera Seer. The bodies it can churn out on a turn rotation is really solid when you make them all generate ETB and Death value.
Academy Rector - controlling when it will die for me is very strong as it can toolbox fairly deep into the deck for a LOT of strong effects. If you cant control the ability to kill it on demand though it drops kind of hard in its value.
Homura, Human Ascendant - its a huge buff to the fragile tokens. Its strong both offensively and defensively. Having the ability to kill it at will makes it somewhat hard to sweep in some ways because you can theoretically leave it as a creature and it makes things like Oblivion Stone more awkward to try to play to the board if he is still a creature.
Skullclamp - What if I have an anthem on board? Essentially any anthem shuts down Skullclamp if you do not also have a sac outlet.
Insurrection - it becomes a one sided wrath plus output with a sac outlet.
I would say that the sac outlets that are vampires really don't feel like they are taking up room as they also fill for the tribe and do relevant things. I also don't have a problem with the land sac options because I need land and they still tap for mana. Of the remaining three, Goblin Bombardment best fits my strategy I am aiming for in being removal or going for damage to the face which is very useful when I do get wrathed. Attrition I view more as a repeatable removal which I could possibly see it turning into just removal in general but I am kind of ok with it being in between. Ashnod's Altar is probably the one from my list I view as the most questionable offhand and its possible that in the future I may cut it. I need to do more testing though to be honest.
So, I guess I wouldn't say that sac is like.... needed for vamps, its just the direction I went. I was seeing more and more cards that being able to control when they die felt like it was profitable to me.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I've had better results with the slightly higher mana curve with only 10 cards that cost 5+. I seem to overextend less and still have relevant plays post boardwipe.
I already run 3 out of the 5 cards you suggested and I used to run the Sorin you listed. I was underwhelmed by Sorin other than his emblem which doesn't seem worth 4 mana to almost always do just once. Hellrider I don't personally like because of 'target' opponent rather than 'each'.
I don't think Necropotence has any nonbos in the deck as I don't use madness and I can't picture any other cards that use discard in my list. If anything is a nonbo it's Khalitas, Traitor of Ghet shutting down Sangromancer and Blood Artist.
I don't own Dark Confidant and even though it's an amazing card, I don't feel he's worth his pricetag in edh. To be clear though, I'd definitely try Confidant here if I had one.
Authority of the Consuls and it's ilk are cards worth testing though and I'll see how it goes as I continue to weed out underperformers.
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Also, I asked on TappedOut but what would your list look like if you were optimized to the ideally strongest level you could run? Your build already looks plenty powerful but I want to know since you claim you're holding back a bit.
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
Basically Edgar would never get cast, my tokens would be fuel/defense, and my tutors would be used on mana doublers and Exsanguinate/Debt but I still wouldn't consider Edgar competetitive in multiplayer. I've just built it easier to interact with and rely on combat currently.
At that point, what would be the point in playing Edgar? What would he bring that two dozen other commanders wouldn't do better?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
/agreed. It's how I play Ghave and Marchesa and the colors and both commanders are much better for the strategy. Well other than I don't use mana doublers or exsanguinate...
Out: Vein Drinker
In: Malakir Bloodwitch
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
edit - also, one of the best boardwipes: Merciless Eviction
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
I would also probably try to swap Path to Exile for Anguished Unmaking if you can. There is nothing wrong with path but its not a big mana jump to have a much more versatile removal effect.
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[Modern] Allies
In: Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle foil, Exquisite Blood, and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
In: Bloodcrazed Paladin and Bishop of Rebirth
I also need help with 1 cut to add Sanctum Seeker
I would consider cutting one of these four:
Of the four I would probably cut from the top of that list down. I have not played with any of the four myself though but I feel that most of them feel a little underwhelming.
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[Modern] Allies
I have 22 cards that lose life (14 are 1 time life loss... bit still). To offset that I have 14 lifegain cards.
I'm also considering dropping 1x swamp to see if 36 lands and 6 mana rocks will work here.
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[Modern] Allies
You're probably right though that I went a little overboard with the lifegain. If you were going to suggest what cards to remove and what to add in their place, what would they be?
I went through my list and tried looking at some of the ones that are less in my build because of how I built mine.
Your land base is honestly better than mine too (I went greedy with hideaway lands and colorless utility). I think you could cut City of Brass and Mana Confluence because assuming your OP landbase is what you are running I just don't see the need for them. I think that Talisman of Indulgence could also become Mind Stone because I just dont think you need the fixing the Talisman can do and the option to pop the Mind Stone off for draw later in the game I value more than the mana fixing of Talisman given your landbase. I think you are running a few more basics than you really need also assuming you dont play against Ruination / Blood Moon / Back to Basics style of tactics. If you do play against them thats fine keep the basic count high but normally in a three color deck I dont bother keeping such a high basic land count unless I am heavily fetching lands in green with stuff like Cultivate and such.
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[Modern] Allies
I can agree with the fact that I should run Purphoros, God of the Forge because 4 damage to each opponent for every vampire I play adds up fast. I've purposely powered down this deck and went all-in on an aggro strategy so I can play this deck in underpowered pods (while teaching the importance of running answers) but Purph still deserves a chance to shine.
I'm not sure if the creatures you suggested support my aggro strategy though, other than Bloodghast, which would be in here if I owned a copy. I just don't think he's worth the $15 pricetag in edh. I will be switching out Blood Baron of Vizkopa for Vona, Butcher of Magan when I get a copy though for the added utility.
The deathtouch creatures you're saying are more defensive I'd normally agree with but my 1st tutor target in 95% of games has been Reconnaissance which increases their value as offensive threats that are still available as blockers due to reconnaissance being as busted as it is.
I can agree with the too many basics and City of Brass/Mana Confluence not being needed here though. Looking through your list I'd run Volrath's Stronghold and Strip Mine if I owned copies and I'll make a point of picking them up. Phyrexian Tower I do own and I'll add it to my list (it means sharing 1 copy with 2 decks, but that's what proxies are for). I'm not sure what other utility lands I'd add though so that'd just remove the painlands and 1x swamp.
I've got to ask though... with your emphasis on sac outlets, why no Grave Pact and/or Dictate of Erebos in your list? Without those cards it feels like you went overboard on sac outlets.
No problem, I totally understand as I often don't take advice of others either. Each person's own list really comes down to what they want to run personally, I only bring it up as some suggestions and something to keep in mind. Sometimes discussion on cards can open up a few ideas and suggestions that we otherwise overlook. There is no real "correct" answer to commander because everyone has their own style of play as well as code of ethics and what they want to do in commander.
It seems a bit odd to me that you like Reconnaissance but cut Iroas, God of Victory. I was wondering if I could get some insight into that change you made. Someone in another one of these Edgar lists also made a suggestion of Cover of Darkness which could also be interesting if you are putting focus into creature combat.
Grave Pact - when it comes to a tribal build, the room I have to play with other cards becomes more limited. It's true that I could play with more Grave Pact effects but ultimately I felt that playign such tactics pushed me in more of a control oriented direction than my goal was. With my build I am trying to red zone my opponents so with that in mind I opted to avoid Grave Pact effects because in a lot of cases I am trying to outrace creature based strategies where Grave Pact is viable. Its something that is always in my mind as a possible and it could still happen. My biggest thing is that anything that is some sort of enabler that is not a vampire in some ways slows down my list.
The following cards in my list enable sac tactics to be stronger:
Blood Artist / Zulaport Cutthroat / Falkenrath Noble - these guys are all kind of a plan to extend and expect to be wrathed.
Being able to turn Bloodghast over with a sac outlet means I can make it ETB for things like Purphoros, God of the Forge / Impact Tremmors as well as generate value off of it being sacrificed. Given all of the fetchlands its possible to turn a sac outlet into multiple creatures entering / dying to my sac value per turn.
Ophiomancer gives a TON of bodies entering and dying to sac outlets for me every turn rotation. I once comboed Ophiomancer with Blood Artist and Viscera Seer. The bodies it can churn out on a turn rotation is really solid when you make them all generate ETB and Death value.
Academy Rector - controlling when it will die for me is very strong as it can toolbox fairly deep into the deck for a LOT of strong effects. If you cant control the ability to kill it on demand though it drops kind of hard in its value.
Homura, Human Ascendant - its a huge buff to the fragile tokens. Its strong both offensively and defensively. Having the ability to kill it at will makes it somewhat hard to sweep in some ways because you can theoretically leave it as a creature and it makes things like Oblivion Stone more awkward to try to play to the board if he is still a creature.
Skullclamp - What if I have an anthem on board? Essentially any anthem shuts down Skullclamp if you do not also have a sac outlet.
Insurrection - it becomes a one sided wrath plus output with a sac outlet.
From my list I run the following sac outlets:
I would say that the sac outlets that are vampires really don't feel like they are taking up room as they also fill for the tribe and do relevant things. I also don't have a problem with the land sac options because I need land and they still tap for mana. Of the remaining three, Goblin Bombardment best fits my strategy I am aiming for in being removal or going for damage to the face which is very useful when I do get wrathed. Attrition I view more as a repeatable removal which I could possibly see it turning into just removal in general but I am kind of ok with it being in between. Ashnod's Altar is probably the one from my list I view as the most questionable offhand and its possible that in the future I may cut it. I need to do more testing though to be honest.
So, I guess I wouldn't say that sac is like.... needed for vamps, its just the direction I went. I was seeing more and more cards that being able to control when they die felt like it was profitable to me.
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[Modern] Allies
In: Cover of Darkness, Dark Prophecy, and Purphoros, God of the Forge
I've had better results with the slightly higher mana curve with only 10 cards that cost 5+. I seem to overextend less and still have relevant plays post boardwipe.
I already run 3 out of the 5 cards you suggested and I used to run the Sorin you listed. I was underwhelmed by Sorin other than his emblem which doesn't seem worth 4 mana to almost always do just once. Hellrider I don't personally like because of 'target' opponent rather than 'each'.
I don't think Necropotence has any nonbos in the deck as I don't use madness and I can't picture any other cards that use discard in my list. If anything is a nonbo it's Khalitas, Traitor of Ghet shutting down Sangromancer and Blood Artist.
I don't own Dark Confidant and even though it's an amazing card, I don't feel he's worth his pricetag in edh. To be clear though, I'd definitely try Confidant here if I had one.
Authority of the Consuls and it's ilk are cards worth testing though and I'll see how it goes as I continue to weed out underperformers.