I've been hooked to Kess since they announced her and been working on a controlish/goodstuff list and I'm wondering what you guys think, since I'm kinda new to the EDH/Multiplayer meta.
I'm looking for Rite of Replication, Army of the Damned, Exsanguinate, Increasing Veangeance and Ambition to add and maybe remove the twin package (I'm using it ATM cause I don't have many wincons).
Thank you in advance!
I disagree with Break3r about Brainstorm. Unless you are running a lot of shuffle effects (10+) it's not a very good or reliable cantrip. Thought Scour is good, but I like Gitaxian Probe more because we can scout for removal or upcoming threats and recast with Kess, Dissident Mage for free (2 life).
I would cut Taigam, Sidisi's Hand for sure. You are paying 5 mana for a 3/4 that doesn't do anything until your next turn. It forces you to skip your draw step, and the activated ability has negative synergy with Kess, Dissident Mage.
Memory Plunder seems good, but I don't think it is. In a 3 color deck, it's hard to reliably cast on turn 4. Usually you'll get a Cultivate or a Swords To Plowshares which are both great to have, but for 4 mana it's too steep.
Silumgar's Command is a card I've seen on many lists and it seems bad. It's difficult to play at instant speed because you have keep 5 mana open. The Negate isn't good for Kess, Dissident Mage to reuse. The planeswalker removal option hardly comes up.
Jace, Architect of Thought seems like a card you can cut. Don't forget the minus ability doesn't put cards in your graveyard.
Serum Visions is a bad cantrip. I would run Opt over it and probably even Brainstorm.
Pact Rat is too cute.
Not sure if I like Treasure Cruise because the Delve sort of have negative synergy with Kess, Dissident Mage and casting it against with her seems even more difficult.
Halimar Depths seems too slow, especially for a 3 color deck.
I like Disdainful Stroke. I should probably test it. Answers a lot of things including most legendary creatures in the format.
I've always wanted to make a Grixis colored control deck but I never found any of the commanders appealing. Kess is exactly what I've been waiting for. My list is similar to OP's but I need to cut two cards. Any suggestions? I was thinking of perhaps cutting 1 land (reliquary tower?) and 1 counterspell perhaps.... I just love all the counters since I enjoy playing a draw go esper in modern. How many lands would be recommended for this style deck?
I've always wanted to make a Grixis colored control deck but I never found any of the commanders appealing. Kess is exactly what I've been waiting for. My list is similar to OP's but I need to cut two cards. Any suggestions? I was thinking of perhaps cutting 1 land (reliquary tower?) and 1 counterspell perhaps.... I just love all the counters since I enjoy playing a draw go esper in modern.
You could also cut Demonic Tutor. It's your only tutor, so it clearly isn't necessary for the plan to function.
I agree you have too many counterspells, they don't work well with Kess, Dissident Mage because she can only recast them on your turn where they are much less effective. Cryptic Command in particular seems like it should be cut, very heavy on blue mana, two of the abilities are only good when it isn't your turn, so usually when you flashback it's an Into The Roil. Counterflux is unnecessary unless Storm is prevalent in your meta.
Damnation is good and I probably should consider playing a more traditional wrath aside from Toxic Deluge. Tidespout Tyrant also makes a lot of sense in this deck.
Riptide Laboratory probably isn't worth running, especially without running Snapcaster Mage or other Wizards. Reliquary Tower is an obvious cut, but I would replace it with something else, running fewer than 37 lands is risky.
Thanks for the advice. I'll go through a few of my ideas regarding some of the cards.
Melek, Izzet Paragon is part of the value package. While he is a nonbo with board wipes (which there are quite a few of). He synergizes well with single target removal, cantrips (for the draw), and miscellaneous spells like spoiling (target two players). Using Melek to double your comet storm is great to close a game.
Polymorphist's Jest is a redundancy for Sudden Spoiling. I play against a few ramp-y go big decks where a double pyroclasm won't dent an opponent's board (dragons, eldrazi, etc.). Having an answer to a big board full of sticky creatures seems useful. While it may be a 'worse' Sudden Spoiling, it's anotherSudden Spoiling.
If we keep Melek, there's two targets for Riptide Laboratory. I find it's better to pay 2 to return Kess to hand then have to pay a cumulatively additional 2 to cast from the command zone. It's how I play around the damnation and potential removal from opponents. It can also be used to protect Melek from a double-casted board clear as you mentioned in your response to me. Whether or not it's worth saving him from his own double casted Radiant Flames is up to you. However, the ability to do so is there. I also had Arcanis the Omnipotent in an earlier version of the list so that would have been 3 wizards. In case you end up in a super-late game and you have TONS of excess mana, you can use it and re-cast Kess as a janky 6 additional mana flashback cost to play a second card from your graveyard. I like the card.
I figure with the counterspells, I'd use them aggressively on opponents' turns and only use them defensively on my turn (as if I had a choice). Rewind is a very good counterspell offensively, since it leaves your with mana for more interaction, but it's quite bad defensively on the re-cast, since your opponent would have to make the first move, and you'd need 4 mana available. I'll cut this one.
Most importantly in my reasoning, I had these cards sitting around so it's all budget for me to do so. Thanks for the advice and getting my brain churning on these ideas.
Changes:
-1 Reliquary Tower
-1 Rewind
-1 Cryptic Command (What am I supposed to do with this $30 card sitting around... [sounds like a fun time to brainstorm a mono U deck])
Melek, Izzet Paragon is part of the value package. While he is a nonbo with board wipes (which there are quite a few of). He synergizes well with single target removal, cantrips (for the draw), and miscellaneous spells like spoiling (target two players). Using Melek to double your comet storm is great to close a game.
The problem with Melek, Izzet Paragon is most of the time he doesn't do anything. 43 of your spells are instants and sorceries, which sounds like a lot but is still less than half of the time. 10 of those 43 spells are counterspells or board wipes that you almost never would want to cast twice. So we're talking about 33% of the time you will be able to use the ability for Melek, Izzet Paragon. 66% of the time he's a 2/4 for 4UR. If anything, at least play Swarm Intelligence instead. Much less fragile, easier to benefit from but I don't even think that's worth playing.
You might be right about Riptide Laboratory. Maybe it's worth it even just for saving Kess, Dissident Mage. I just find oftentimes this deck doesn't keep a lot of mana open because we want to recast our spells.
I see more where you're coming from with Melek. Is a 6 mana investment worth being active less than 50% of the time on a horrible 2/4 body? Sounds kinda bad. I'm going to swap him out with another card already in my collection and see how it preforms.
I understand why Pack Rat is in here, but take it out. You should be casting your spells twice, not discarding them to cast later. Replace it with Talrand.
Not a huge fan of Snuff Out compared to Hero's Downfall.
I would replace Thought Scour with something like Brainstorm.
I would replace Disdainful Stroke with Arcane Denial.
You're running a TON of board wipes. I know the OP of this thread is as well, and it's somewhat meta dependent, but you're running a huge amount given other people will always be wiping the board. I would honestly cut ~10 of your sorceries for creatures/artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers, as a control deck doesn't want to play lots of sorcery speed spells.
Replace Rakdos Signet with Dimir Signet, that way you have Blue in both of your signets. You also have zero utility artifacts, not sure that you need any but something to think about.
Jace, AoT is pretty underwhelming, I'd straight up take him out and replace him with a fat creature, maybe one on the list mentioned by OP as his wincons. Thraximundar isn't expensive.
Tahnk you for your advice. I'm having a bad time winning after controlling the board, not sure what I should add besides the cards I mentioned in my original post. Jace AoT and Pack Rat are included as alternates wincons, probably they will come out once I find more options that helps me close games.
I'll have a Dimir Signet added to the deck this week, thinking about removing commander's sphere for it, since turn 3 I want to be casting spells, not ramping.
Snuff out is good since it's a free removal spell most of the times, sadly I can't target planeswalkers, but I think it's good. Disdainful stroke is pretty good, not sure If I want that many counters, but its one of the best 2-mana counters for multiplayer (IMO).
I disagree with Break3r about Brainstorm. Unless you are running a lot of shuffle effects (10+) it's not a very good or reliable cantrip. Thought Scour is good, but I like Gitaxian Probe more because we can scout for removal or upcoming threats and recast with Kess, Dissident Mage for free (2 life).
I would cut Taigam, Sidisi's Hand for sure. You are paying 5 mana for a 3/4 that doesn't do anything until your next turn. It forces you to skip your draw step, and the activated ability has negative synergy with Kess, Dissident Mage.
Memory Plunder seems good, but I don't think it is. In a 3 color deck, it's hard to reliably cast on turn 4. Usually you'll get a Cultivate or a Swords To Plowshares which are both great to have, but for 4 mana it's too steep.
Silumgar's Command is a card I've seen on many lists and it seems bad. It's difficult to play at instant speed because you have keep 5 mana open. The Negate isn't good for Kess, Dissident Mage to reuse. The planeswalker removal option hardly comes up.
Jace, Architect of Thought seems like a card you can cut. Don't forget the minus ability doesn't put cards in your graveyard.
Serum Visions is a bad cantrip. I would run Opt over it and probably even Brainstorm.
Pact Rat is too cute.
Not sure if I like Treasure Cruise because the Delve sort of have negative synergy with Kess, Dissident Mage and casting it against with her seems even more difficult.
Halimar Depths seems too slow, especially for a 3 color deck.
I like Disdainful Stroke. I should probably test it. Answers a lot of things including most legendary creatures in the format.
I had probe but targeting 1 opponent only doesnt seems that good, I'd rather have a more impactful card/cantrip.
Taigam is probably coming out anyway.
Kiki is there just for the combo package, probably coming out (with all the other 4 pieces) after I find more good wincons.
Agreed with Plunder and Silumgar, just not sure what to add in those slots.
I've been running Melek since day 1, he's great. Mystic Tutor/Vampiric Tutor Exsanguinate to the top, cast it and get a free copy.
I agree that he's probably too conditional, but I so far wouldn't call him a wasted slot. That said, it may be better to run Future Sight or something else for the card advantage.
Silumgar's Command is a great meta call, sure it's 5 mana but if you have a single superfriends player in your group, you really have to find ways of messing with their gameplan.
Again, I think it's way too situational. Maybe it's a yes if you run a lot of library top card manipulation (Sensei's Divining Top, Portent, Halimar Depths, etc.). However even then it's sketchy.
The significant majority of the time, you won't be using his ability. You have literally a better chance at coming out favorably on Stitch in Time. When we aren't coming out favorably, you are revealing threats and counter spells to our opponents.
Future Sight is one of my favorite cards and certainly worthy of testing (although paying 2UUU consistently can be tricky). My list tries to focus on few nonland permanents, but Future Sight is very strong. However, like with Melek, Izzet Paragon, the more counter spells you run, the weaker the card is.
Slave of Bolas is too slow imo for a one turn control effect. At 5cc Word of Seizing is a much better card. Most of the time when a Blightsteel of Ulamog hits the table in my meta they will be attacking the very same turn. Creatures like those usually don't get to survive past 1 full turn without someone boardwiping or killing them.
I like Melek, Izzet Paragon. He is a really good creature who gives card advantage, like you said, if the deck runs some form of top of library manipulation. One interesting thing about revealing information to opponents is, it also deters them from making big plays when a counterspell in on top of your library. By intentionally revealing what you have to others, it makes better political play. It is hard to win a countermagic war with a Melek since every counterspell cast from top of library is 2 copies, have to use 2 counters to counter it.
Melek/Future Sight also makes tutors like Mystical/Vampiric tutors really powerful since he can cast them off immediately. It gives better control of the board as we are able to answer most threats on demand when we have Melek and a top for library tutor. I do support considering Melek in Kess. Not everytime Kess will be on the battlefield, we need as much card advantage as we can have.
Slave of Bolas is too slow imo for a one turn control effect. At 5cc Word of Seizing is a much better card. Most of the time when a Blightsteel of Ulamog hits the table in my meta they will be attacking the very same turn. Creatures like those usually don't get to survive past 1 full turn without someone boardwiping or killing them.
I like Melek, Izzet Paragon. He is a really good creature who gives card advantage, like you said, if the deck runs some form of top of library manipulation. One interesting thing about revealing information to opponents is, it also deters them from making big plays when a counterspell in on top of your library. By intentionally revealing what you have to others, it makes better political play. It is hard to win a countermagic war with a Melek since every counterspell cast from top of library is 2 copies, have to use 2 counters to counter it.
Melek/Future Sight also makes tutors like Mystical/Vampiric tutors really powerful since he can cast them off immediately. It gives better control of the board as we are able to answer most threats on demand when we have Melek and a top for library tutor. I do support considering Melek in Kess. Not everytime Kess will be on the battlefield, we need as much card advantage as we can have.
Yeah, I think you are probably right about Slave of Bolas.
I think your list is interesting. It is very different from my list and it seems like you are going for a combo list which makes me wonder why you aren't running more tutors (i.e. Fabricate, Merchant Scroll). I'm personally not big on combo lists and have little insight to offer but I did comment on your thread.
For the purpose of discussing Kess, Dissident Mage from a more midrange or control perspective, I am interested in hearing about how the following cards are performing along with your general thoughts (or what anyone else thinks):
Great control list you have. There are so many cards which I totally missed out, like Kolaghan's Command and Fact or Fiction you highlighted over on my thread. Too many cards I wanted yet so little slots... arrrgh ><
How does your games fair for a control style Kess? Since her ability being only usable during our turn most counters and reactive type spells are single use only without Kess being able to reuse them?
For the purpose of discussing Kess, Dissident Mage from a more midrange or control perspective, I am interested in hearing about how the following cards are performing along with your general thoughts (or what anyone else thinks):
Love Torment of Hailfire, if you can cast it for large enough X, it's a huge swing. Sure, someone whose about to win could just pay the X * 3 life, but anyone else will be forced to diminish some percentage of their resources, which is a powerful strategy for control.
I pitched Trail of Evidence to the EDH Discord channel, got boo'd. I think it has merit, but it's also really slow.
Desolate Lighthouse is a perfectly fine utility land, and looting on an empty hand is still relatively useful with Kess.
I pitched Trail of Evidence to the EDH Discord channel, got boo'd. I think it has merit, but it's also really slow.
Aren't low profile cards good so players wouldn't target it as much?
In a nutshell: maybe? I really like the card, I just think it needs testing. If you're running Trail of Evidence, you're basically telling yourself "I don't think my instants/sorceries are going to draw me enough, so I need to create an artifact that costs 2 mana to use to draw 1 card". I think you might be better off running another Draw spell, but if you're looking at a deck of 40-45 instants/sorceries, I think it could do work.
I pitched Trail of Evidence to the EDH Discord channel, got boo'd. I think it has merit, but it's also really slow.
Aren't low profile cards good so players wouldn't target it as much?
In a nutshell: maybe? I really like the card, I just think it needs testing. If you're running Trail of Evidence, you're basically telling yourself "I don't think my instants/sorceries are going to draw me enough, so I need to create an artifact that costs 2 mana to use to draw 1 card". I think you might be better off running another Draw spell, but if you're looking at a deck of 40-45 instants/sorceries, I think it could do work.
I play Trail of Evidence in my Kess deck is more for the mana it generates with Inspiring Statuary. Every instant/sorcery I cast creates a clue which turns into a 1 rock for my next spell. Every turn I get to untap with Inspiring Statuary in play with those clues makes me cast bigger spells (since with 5 clues = 5 mana off using Improvise).
The clues being able to sacrifice is just another good to have when I need cards in a pinch. Both cards are good on their own too since Inspiring Statuary is good enough to be a mana rock on its own with the Improvise ability at 3cc.
Does anyone know if there are any cards like Runic Repetition that return cards we own in exile to our graveyard/hand? Seems like a great thing that Kess could abuse.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
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I am really glad I found this list, it seems really fun!
I like commanders that allow me to use fun/unusual cards that are suddenly viable. My stance on Secrets of the Dead is "Why not?!" Sure it is sub-par to Rhystic Study, but what other decks are you gonna see this card in? Not many! And Study is like 12 bucks now so it is at least a budget option.
I pitched Trail of Evidence to the EDH Discord channel, got boo'd. I think it has merit, but it's also really slow.
Aren't low profile cards good so players wouldn't target it as much?
In a nutshell: maybe? I really like the card, I just think it needs testing. If you're running Trail of Evidence, you're basically telling yourself "I don't think my instants/sorceries are going to draw me enough, so I need to create an artifact that costs 2 mana to use to draw 1 card". I think you might be better off running another Draw spell, but if you're looking at a deck of 40-45 instants/sorceries, I think it could do work.
I play Trail of Evidence in my Kess deck is more for the mana it generates with Inspiring Statuary. Every instant/sorcery I cast creates a clue which turns into a 1 rock for my next spell. Every turn I get to untap with Inspiring Statuary in play with those clues makes me cast bigger spells (since with 5 clues = 5 mana off using Improvise).
The clues being able to sacrifice is just another good to have when I need cards in a pinch. Both cards are good on their own too since Inspiring Statuary is good enough to be a mana rock on its own with the Improvise ability at 3cc.
That's a dope synergy, I really like it. My only concern is how often it will be relevant. I don't know your list, but I'm running maybe 6 artifacts that all already tap for mana, more mana than I would get from Improvising them, so it doesn't seem like a strong pick to run Inspiring Statuary just to maybe some times tap clues for mana.
That's a dope synergy, I really like it. My only concern is how often it will be relevant. I don't know your list, but I'm running maybe 6 artifacts that all already tap for mana, more mana than I would get from Improvising them, so it doesn't seem like a strong pick to run Inspiring Statuary just to maybe some times tap clues for mana.
I'm going to keep this in mind, however.
In the games I've played with Trail of Evidence out it never fails to disappoint. The clues provide some form of card draw when I need cards, especially during turns when I expected to counter/react to something but end up no one else cast anything worthwhile to counter. It provides a bit of protection against decks which blinks and blinks Rishadan Footpad. It makes my Chaos Warp really fun when I target the token, although 1/3 of the time it will fizzle due to high count of sorcery/instant in deck.
As for Inspiring Statuary, most of the time it acts as a mana rock on its own for non-artifact spells. What makes it special is besides the synergies between it with Trail of Evidence and Metallurgic Summonings, it provides some form of insurance against Null Rod and Stony Silence (which is rather common in my meta). Since improvise ability is granted to the spell itself, tapping artifacts to pay for mana via improvise isn't considered an activated ability, hence null rod and its ilk doesn't prevent it.
I think Keranos, God of Storms is a great suggestion. It will probably seldom be online as a creature, but that's a good thing. I believe Lightning Bolt effects are tremendously underrated in the format.
Vandalblast was very helpful and I have decided I will not be cutting it.
Burning Vengeance is so freaking good. It's probably my favorite card in the deck just because it might as well be named Kess's Vengeance. It continues to overperform. Finishes off planeswalkers, turns Chain Lightning into Explosive Impact and so much more.
The mana rocks are necessary and I would be very skeptical of a list without any. That being said, I don't think adding more is necessary and the ones that cost 3 mana or more seem too slow.
Noxious Gearhulk is holding its weight and at this time is not worth cutting. It feels so good to gain 10 life and destroy The Ur-Dragon.
Insurrection is strong and it performed well but I still don't like it. It is lackluster when our deck is working well, but when we are losing and can't answer the board state it flat out steals games but it feels very different from the rest of the deck.
Does anyone care to weigh in on Consign to Dream and Recoil? I am thinking of replacing Capsize. It's powerful, but it causes a lot of hate among my primary play group and in the late game with buyback it causes games to take longer. Cosign to Dream can still bounce lands, is easy to cast because it doesn't require a lot of colored mana and the tempo play of being able to put many commanders and powerful creatures/permanents on to of their owner's library is a wonderful tempo play (i.e. Asceticism, O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami, Sylvan Library). Recoil also causes excellent tempo and functions as a flat out removal spell when an opponent has no cards in their hand.
Here are the latest changes I made to Controlling Dissidents:
September 2, 2017: In: Sudden Spoiling Out: Blatant Thievery Reason: Sudden Spoiling can do some cool things but it feels too cute. A lot of times this card would sit in my hand for too long and when I'd draw it I would seldom be happy to see it. Blatant Thievery gives us an additional answer to problematic enchantments and lands while also answering (and stealing) win conditions.
September 2, 2017: In: Insurrection Out: Dack's Duplicate Reason: Insurrection is very strong but goes against the strategy of keeping the board clear of a lot of creatures. Dack's Duplicate is versatile enough to be a threat, win condition or a utility creature.
September 2, 2017: In: Bojuka Bog Out: Swamp Reason: This was an oversight that should have been in the original. Graveyard hate that is difficult to interact with is good for a control deck to have. Note: This update has also been added to the change log in the first post of the thread.
Of the two I'd say Recoil seems better. Have you thought about Wipe Away as another option? Split second has been insanely powerful every time I've seen it.
Capsize will be hard to remove though. It's buyback ability is what makes it really good with Kess. What about Grixis Charm? same 3cc (harder to cast due to the colored mana) but it gives more options like creature removal too.
I disagree with Break3r about Brainstorm. Unless you are running a lot of shuffle effects (10+) it's not a very good or reliable cantrip. Thought Scour is good, but I like Gitaxian Probe more because we can scout for removal or upcoming threats and recast with Kess, Dissident Mage for free (2 life).
I would cut Taigam, Sidisi's Hand for sure. You are paying 5 mana for a 3/4 that doesn't do anything until your next turn. It forces you to skip your draw step, and the activated ability has negative synergy with Kess, Dissident Mage.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker seems bad. You only run 6 nonlegendary creatures in your list.
Memory Plunder seems good, but I don't think it is. In a 3 color deck, it's hard to reliably cast on turn 4. Usually you'll get a Cultivate or a Swords To Plowshares which are both great to have, but for 4 mana it's too steep.
Silumgar's Command is a card I've seen on many lists and it seems bad. It's difficult to play at instant speed because you have keep 5 mana open. The Negate isn't good for Kess, Dissident Mage to reuse. The planeswalker removal option hardly comes up.
Jace, Architect of Thought seems like a card you can cut. Don't forget the minus ability doesn't put cards in your graveyard.
Serum Visions is a bad cantrip. I would run Opt over it and probably even Brainstorm.
Pact Rat is too cute.
Not sure if I like Treasure Cruise because the Delve sort of have negative synergy with Kess, Dissident Mage and casting it against with her seems even more difficult.
Halimar Depths seems too slow, especially for a 3 color deck.
I like Disdainful Stroke. I should probably test it. Answers a lot of things including most legendary creatures in the format.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Edit: Link: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kess-valuetown/
Esper Control
Budget / Casual Below
Puresteel Weapon
Sultai Superfriends
Cool list.
You can maybe cut Polymorphist's Jest. Feels like a worse Sudden Spoiling which is good but a little cute and I'm considering cutting it.
Maybe cut Melek, Izzet Paragon? How has he been doing. Seems like a lot of mana without guaranteed payoff and much less reliable than your other 6 drops. Keep in mind a lot of our spells we wouldn't even want to copy (i.e. Radiant Flames, Anger of the Gods, Pyroclasm would all kill Melek, Izzet Paragon)
You could also cut Demonic Tutor. It's your only tutor, so it clearly isn't necessary for the plan to function.
I agree you have too many counterspells, they don't work well with Kess, Dissident Mage because she can only recast them on your turn where they are much less effective. Cryptic Command in particular seems like it should be cut, very heavy on blue mana, two of the abilities are only good when it isn't your turn, so usually when you flashback it's an Into The Roil. Counterflux is unnecessary unless Storm is prevalent in your meta.
Damnation is good and I probably should consider playing a more traditional wrath aside from Toxic Deluge. Tidespout Tyrant also makes a lot of sense in this deck.
Riptide Laboratory probably isn't worth running, especially without running Snapcaster Mage or other Wizards. Reliquary Tower is an obvious cut, but I would replace it with something else, running fewer than 37 lands is risky.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Melek, Izzet Paragon is part of the value package. While he is a nonbo with board wipes (which there are quite a few of). He synergizes well with single target removal, cantrips (for the draw), and miscellaneous spells like spoiling (target two players). Using Melek to double your comet storm is great to close a game.
Polymorphist's Jest is a redundancy for Sudden Spoiling. I play against a few ramp-y go big decks where a double pyroclasm won't dent an opponent's board (dragons, eldrazi, etc.). Having an answer to a big board full of sticky creatures seems useful. While it may be a 'worse' Sudden Spoiling, it's another Sudden Spoiling.
If we keep Melek, there's two targets for Riptide Laboratory. I find it's better to pay 2 to return Kess to hand then have to pay a cumulatively additional 2 to cast from the command zone. It's how I play around the damnation and potential removal from opponents. It can also be used to protect Melek from a double-casted board clear as you mentioned in your response to me. Whether or not it's worth saving him from his own double casted Radiant Flames is up to you. However, the ability to do so is there. I also had Arcanis the Omnipotent in an earlier version of the list so that would have been 3 wizards. In case you end up in a super-late game and you have TONS of excess mana, you can use it and re-cast Kess as a janky 6 additional mana flashback cost to play a second card from your graveyard. I like the card.
I figure with the counterspells, I'd use them aggressively on opponents' turns and only use them defensively on my turn (as if I had a choice). Rewind is a very good counterspell offensively, since it leaves your with mana for more interaction, but it's quite bad defensively on the re-cast, since your opponent would have to make the first move, and you'd need 4 mana available. I'll cut this one.
Most importantly in my reasoning, I had these cards sitting around so it's all budget for me to do so. Thanks for the advice and getting my brain churning on these ideas.
Changes:
-1 Reliquary Tower
-1 Rewind
-1 Cryptic Command (What am I supposed to do with this $30 card sitting around... [sounds like a fun time to brainstorm a mono U deck])
+1 Island
Esper Control
Budget / Casual Below
Puresteel Weapon
Sultai Superfriends
The problem with Melek, Izzet Paragon is most of the time he doesn't do anything. 43 of your spells are instants and sorceries, which sounds like a lot but is still less than half of the time. 10 of those 43 spells are counterspells or board wipes that you almost never would want to cast twice. So we're talking about 33% of the time you will be able to use the ability for Melek, Izzet Paragon. 66% of the time he's a 2/4 for 4UR. If anything, at least play Swarm Intelligence instead. Much less fragile, easier to benefit from but I don't even think that's worth playing.
Also could be a meta call but you only have two land destruction spells, Pillage and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. You aren't even running lands that destroy lands (Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter) so I could imagine something like a Cabal Coffers, Maze of Ith, Dust Bowl or whatever causing you a lot of trouble.
You might be right about Riptide Laboratory. Maybe it's worth it even just for saving Kess, Dissident Mage. I just find oftentimes this deck doesn't keep a lot of mana open because we want to recast our spells.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I see more where you're coming from with Melek. Is a 6 mana investment worth being active less than 50% of the time on a horrible 2/4 body? Sounds kinda bad. I'm going to swap him out with another card already in my collection and see how it preforms.
Esper Control
Budget / Casual Below
Puresteel Weapon
Sultai Superfriends
Tahnk you for your advice. I'm having a bad time winning after controlling the board, not sure what I should add besides the cards I mentioned in my original post. Jace AoT and Pack Rat are included as alternates wincons, probably they will come out once I find more options that helps me close games.
I'll have a Dimir Signet added to the deck this week, thinking about removing commander's sphere for it, since turn 3 I want to be casting spells, not ramping.
Snuff out is good since it's a free removal spell most of the times, sadly I can't target planeswalkers, but I think it's good. Disdainful stroke is pretty good, not sure If I want that many counters, but its one of the best 2-mana counters for multiplayer (IMO).
I had probe but targeting 1 opponent only doesnt seems that good, I'd rather have a more impactful card/cantrip.
Taigam is probably coming out anyway.
Kiki is there just for the combo package, probably coming out (with all the other 4 pieces) after I find more good wincons.
Agreed with Plunder and Silumgar, just not sure what to add in those slots.
I agree that he's probably too conditional, but I so far wouldn't call him a wasted slot. That said, it may be better to run Future Sight or something else for the card advantage.
Silumgar's Command is a great meta call, sure it's 5 mana but if you have a single superfriends player in your group, you really have to find ways of messing with their gameplan.
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
Again, I think it's way too situational. Maybe it's a yes if you run a lot of library top card manipulation (Sensei's Divining Top, Portent, Halimar Depths, etc.). However even then it's sketchy.
The significant majority of the time, you won't be using his ability. You have literally a better chance at coming out favorably on Stitch in Time. When we aren't coming out favorably, you are revealing threats and counter spells to our opponents.
Future Sight is one of my favorite cards and certainly worthy of testing (although paying 2UUU consistently can be tricky). My list tries to focus on few nonland permanents, but Future Sight is very strong. However, like with Melek, Izzet Paragon, the more counter spells you run, the weaker the card is.
Does anyone have any thoughts of Slave of Bolas? I like that it can handle burdensome threats like Blightsteel Colossus or Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger while also dishing major damage but paying 5 mana to answer one creature seems steep.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I like Melek, Izzet Paragon. He is a really good creature who gives card advantage, like you said, if the deck runs some form of top of library manipulation. One interesting thing about revealing information to opponents is, it also deters them from making big plays when a counterspell in on top of your library. By intentionally revealing what you have to others, it makes better political play. It is hard to win a countermagic war with a Melek since every counterspell cast from top of library is 2 copies, have to use 2 counters to counter it.
Melek/Future Sight also makes tutors like Mystical/Vampiric tutors really powerful since he can cast them off immediately. It gives better control of the board as we are able to answer most threats on demand when we have Melek and a top for library tutor. I do support considering Melek in Kess. Not everytime Kess will be on the battlefield, we need as much card advantage as we can have.
Here's my decklist for Kess, any suggestions and comments about what to add or drop?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/782120-kess-dissident-mage-of-the-lotus-non-storm
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Yeah, I think you are probably right about Slave of Bolas.
I think your list is interesting. It is very different from my list and it seems like you are going for a combo list which makes me wonder why you aren't running more tutors (i.e. Fabricate, Merchant Scroll). I'm personally not big on combo lists and have little insight to offer but I did comment on your thread.
For the purpose of discussing Kess, Dissident Mage from a more midrange or control perspective, I am interested in hearing about how the following cards are performing along with your general thoughts (or what anyone else thinks):
Trail of Evidence
Torment of Hailfire
Desolate Lighthouse
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
How does your games fair for a control style Kess? Since her ability being only usable during our turn most counters and reactive type spells are single use only without Kess being able to reuse them?
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Love Torment of Hailfire, if you can cast it for large enough X, it's a huge swing. Sure, someone whose about to win could just pay the X * 3 life, but anyone else will be forced to diminish some percentage of their resources, which is a powerful strategy for control.
I pitched Trail of Evidence to the EDH Discord channel, got boo'd. I think it has merit, but it's also really slow.
Desolate Lighthouse is a perfectly fine utility land, and looting on an empty hand is still relatively useful with Kess.
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
Aren't low profile cards good so players wouldn't target it as much?
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
In a nutshell: maybe? I really like the card, I just think it needs testing. If you're running Trail of Evidence, you're basically telling yourself "I don't think my instants/sorceries are going to draw me enough, so I need to create an artifact that costs 2 mana to use to draw 1 card". I think you might be better off running another Draw spell, but if you're looking at a deck of 40-45 instants/sorceries, I think it could do work.
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
I play Trail of Evidence in my Kess deck is more for the mana it generates with Inspiring Statuary. Every instant/sorcery I cast creates a clue which turns into a 1 rock for my next spell. Every turn I get to untap with Inspiring Statuary in play with those clues makes me cast bigger spells (since with 5 clues = 5 mana off using Improvise).
The clues being able to sacrifice is just another good to have when I need cards in a pinch. Both cards are good on their own too since Inspiring Statuary is good enough to be a mana rock on its own with the Improvise ability at 3cc.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
I would add Secrets of the Dead for draw.
It looks like you're running a lot of creatures as a win condition. Wouldn't it be more flavorful (and perhaps even more powerfull) to rely on spells to win and run Kess as the only creature in (technically not in) the deck? You already have Rite of Replication and Insurrection, but you could add Clone Legion, Reins of Power and Rise of the Dark Realms. Fanning the Flames, while a bit costly, will allow you to keep sinking your mana into it every turn. Metallurgic Summonings and Call the Skybreaker can keep providing bodies (Be sure to play Dakmor Salvage as well.
Secrets of the Dead + Callthe Skybreaker + Dakmor Salvage = 7 mana, mill 2 cards: get a 5/5 flying.
Additionally, some cards to let you take other people's stuff:
Instants / sorceries
Talent of the Telepath
Memory Plunder
Creatures:
Bribery
Necromantic Summons
Fated Return
Extract from Darkness
Reanimate
Breaking // Entering
Blatant Thievery
Dominate
Everything:
Hedonist's Trove
Aethersnatch
I would cut the creatures you have listed under wincons for this
I think that's the direction I will be taking this in the future, once my Inalla deck is complete.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I like commanders that allow me to use fun/unusual cards that are suddenly viable. My stance on Secrets of the Dead is "Why not?!" Sure it is sub-par to Rhystic Study, but what other decks are you gonna see this card in? Not many! And Study is like 12 bucks now so it is at least a budget option.
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
That's a dope synergy, I really like it. My only concern is how often it will be relevant. I don't know your list, but I'm running maybe 6 artifacts that all already tap for mana, more mana than I would get from Improvising them, so it doesn't seem like a strong pick to run Inspiring Statuary just to maybe some times tap clues for mana.
I'm going to keep this in mind, however.
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
In the games I've played with Trail of Evidence out it never fails to disappoint. The clues provide some form of card draw when I need cards, especially during turns when I expected to counter/react to something but end up no one else cast anything worthwhile to counter. It provides a bit of protection against decks which blinks and blinks Rishadan Footpad. It makes my Chaos Warp really fun when I target the token, although 1/3 of the time it will fizzle due to high count of sorcery/instant in deck.
As for Inspiring Statuary, most of the time it acts as a mana rock on its own for non-artifact spells. What makes it special is besides the synergies between it with Trail of Evidence and Metallurgic Summonings, it provides some form of insurance against Null Rod and Stony Silence (which is rather common in my meta). Since improvise ability is granted to the spell itself, tapping artifacts to pay for mana via improvise isn't considered an activated ability, hence null rod and its ilk doesn't prevent it.
Here's my decklist for Kess, it is also a control based deck but it runs rather differently.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/782120-kess-dissident-mage-of-the-lotus-non-storm
I am too running Kess with a similar build. It offers a different way of control, which works really well with Kess as the commander.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
I think Keranos, God of Storms is a great suggestion. It will probably seldom be online as a creature, but that's a good thing. I believe Lightning Bolt effects are tremendously underrated in the format.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Vandalblast was very helpful and I have decided I will not be cutting it.
Burning Vengeance is so freaking good. It's probably my favorite card in the deck just because it might as well be named Kess's Vengeance. It continues to overperform. Finishes off planeswalkers, turns Chain Lightning into Explosive Impact and so much more.
The mana rocks are necessary and I would be very skeptical of a list without any. That being said, I don't think adding more is necessary and the ones that cost 3 mana or more seem too slow.
Noxious Gearhulk is holding its weight and at this time is not worth cutting. It feels so good to gain 10 life and destroy The Ur-Dragon.
Insurrection is strong and it performed well but I still don't like it. It is lackluster when our deck is working well, but when we are losing and can't answer the board state it flat out steals games but it feels very different from the rest of the deck.
I want to test Dack's Duplicate and plan on doing so in the future. Copying something like The Ur-Dragon or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre but also getting haste seems absurdly good. Also being able to copy our non-legendary creatures but grant the copy haste seems strong (i.e. Inferno Titan, Frost Titan, Wurmcoil Engine)
Does anyone care to weigh in on Consign to Dream and Recoil? I am thinking of replacing Capsize. It's powerful, but it causes a lot of hate among my primary play group and in the late game with buyback it causes games to take longer. Cosign to Dream can still bounce lands, is easy to cast because it doesn't require a lot of colored mana and the tempo play of being able to put many commanders and powerful creatures/permanents on to of their owner's library is a wonderful tempo play (i.e. Asceticism, O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami, Sylvan Library). Recoil also causes excellent tempo and functions as a flat out removal spell when an opponent has no cards in their hand.
Here are the latest changes I made to Controlling Dissidents:
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Of the two I'd say Recoil seems better. Have you thought about Wipe Away as another option? Split second has been insanely powerful every time I've seen it.
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused