MTG Salvation

Quote from Jeff2302 »

HI Guys, I am also making a Kess, Dissident Mage deck and have been following this thread since quite early on.

I originally intended to make a Storm deck but found it like playing Solitaire
Then I tried making a Control Shell with Storm, but found that at the end I couldnt find the spells needed to Storm

So I instead decided to keep the Control shell (thanks to ideas on this thread) and build my own version. Would you mind sharing your thoughts?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/09-09-17-kess-dissident-mage/

The goal of the deck is to run few permanents so that when I play multiple sweepers, I dont lose much.
I also play a decent amount of counter spells to be able to protect my win cons (Kiki-Twin, Planeswalkers)

I am not running this deck with CEDH in mind but I would like to be able to win more than lose, I am going with the 75% theory of building decks.

You have a solid list. How are the rituals working out (i.e. Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Seething Song)?

I'm not fond of tutors personally, but considering you are running them, you should run Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor.

As Foretold seems too slow and only seems good in the first couple turns of the game.

How is Desolate Lighthouse working out for you?

Quote from Jeff2302 »

HI Guys, I am also making a Kess, Dissident Mage deck and have been following this thread since quite early on.

I originally intended to make a Storm deck but found it like playing Solitaire
Then I tried making a Control Shell with Storm, but found that at the end I couldnt find the spells needed to Storm

So I instead decided to keep the Control shell (thanks to ideas on this thread) and build my own version. Would you mind sharing your thoughts?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/09-09-17-kess-dissident-mage/

The goal of the deck is to run few permanents so that when I play multiple sweepers, I dont lose much.
I also play a decent amount of counter spells to be able to protect my win cons (Kiki-Twin, Planeswalkers)

I am not running this deck with CEDH in mind but I would like to be able to win more than lose, I am going with the 75% theory of building decks.

How are the games with 34 lands and 5 mana rocks? Are you getting enough mana in most games, mostly is done via looting and cantrip effects?
Is this deck build with 1v1 french rulings in mind given there isn't a Sol Ring or any fast t1 rocks in the deck?

How is Tolaria West been working in the deck given it is only there for tutoring lands? What do you usually transmute it for?

At the moment the Rituals have been mediocre, I may cut them because the main reason they are there is to help with an early Planeswalker. I kind of want to change this deck into a Control Shell with a few more Planeswalkers (up the sweeper count and remove the Kiki/Splinter Combo) because they seem to be the only way to win consistently with control decks in EDH. Kiki/Splinter is good when I find the pieces but sometimes I can't assemble it.

As Foretold is a placeholder for Search for Azcanta

Desolate Lighthouse is there because of the low Avg CMC of 3.xx which towards mid game allows me to pour excess mana for the loot effect.

I'm building this with the normal ban list in mind, you are probably right with Sol Ring, I may remove the Rituals to put more Mana Rocks such as Grim Monolith in.
34 Lands and 5 Mana Rocks is so far pretty much enough because barring my planeswalkers, I dont have many high CMC cards but I may change to 36. I usually keep hands with 2 mana + Cantrips and as long as I have my 3 colors, the deck runs well.

This deck is still a work in progress and any help from this thread would be great.

Quote from Juristhalion »

As Foretold is a very good card in the deck. When I played it, it served as a replacement when Kess was not around; It kept my deck 'dangerous' for my opponents. It's allways a target for enchantment - hate.

It's good, but only if you get it in your opening hand. If you draw this on turn 10 it's not that impressive anymore. I run it in a 5 color deck because it also fixes mana and one of the deck's main things is to play stuff on opponent's turns so you really get your mana's worth even if you get it later on. But I wouldn't consider it as any form of ramp or whatever.

I just wanted to chime in on Tidespout Tyrant. With the mana ramp artifacts, you can get unlimited mana. Furthermore, I believe that you can continue to bounce and replay Kess, Dissident Mage, which creates a different instance each time, and this would enable an additional card to be cast from the graveyard for each instance.

What do you guys think of Thing In the Ice? It fits our spells matter theme and once flipped is a board clear

I've removed the Kiki/Splinter combo from my deck and changed it quite a bit after some testing and for those who want to comment/see it, you can click on the link here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/09-09-17-kess-dissident-mage/

Quote from Jeff2302 »

What do you guys think of Thing In the Ice? It fits our spells matter theme and once flipped is a board clear

I don't like bouncing the entire creature board state(ours included) in a format with so many powerful creatures enter the battlefield abilities. Seems like we would just upset everyone and turn the attention on us, but in a way that is much less valuable than Cyclonic Rift. We get a 7/8 that maybe connects once, but then everyone replays their stuff and they chump block it.

I notice you are playing Evacuation, a card that I personally have been avoiding. What are your thoughts on it? It seems better than Thing In The Ice, but still underwhelming.

Quote from Juristhalion »

I don't agree. Thing In the Iceis good in the early game or later as blocker. He can bounce the entire creature board, attack, gain advantage and gain time. What's wrong with that ?

Because bouncing creatures like Terastodon, Grave Titan, Acidic Slime, Baleful Strix, Avenger of Zendikar and Eternal Witness causes more harm than good and EDH is filled with creatures like these.

Spellskite is also an early game blocker that protects Kess, Dissident Mage along with other permanents we have and randomly hoses aura based voltron strategies.

I also don't think Thing In the Ice is very good in the late game/top draw portion of the game.

Don't think Thing in the Ice is worth it. In edh due to its multiplayer nature, most of the decks will be packing board wipes and mass returns. Given that the card requires 4 other spells to make it even useful makes it really hard to effectively use its abilities before it gets removed.

Quote from Jeff2302 »

What do you guys think of Thing In the Ice? It fits our spells matter theme and once flipped is a board clear

I've removed the Kiki/Splinter combo from my deck and changed it quite a bit after some testing and for those who want to comment/see it, you can click on the link here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/09-09-17-kess-dissident-mage/

If you're playing Grixis and you want this effect, you're better off just playing Animate Dead/Necromancy + Kederekt Leviathan. It is also convenient that all of the cards in that two card combo are better than Thing in the Ice.

For players that have be playing with and against Kess, Dissident Mage in the past week or so, how have the games been going? Any interesting highlights?

I've been having so much success with No Mercy figured I should just mention it. I strongly recommend any list adds it. Discourages attackers so much, it really allows us to accumulate a sizable amount of card advantage that we can use at a later day. I may even test Dread for additional support to mirror this effect.

In multiplayer, No Mercy is so much more than card advantage. Every attack it discourages often goes someplace else. That is better than removal, since that attack accomplishes our goals of beating our opponents. It does this without creating antipathy in either the person making the attack or the person suffering that same attack, even though we doubly benefit from it. For an identical cost, it is like an anterograde Damnation in that it removes both current and future threats to our victory, but with the benefit of not subtracting from the list of threats our opponents face. Essentially it is like a one sided board wipe combined with Insurrection. Every black deck should at least consider it. Disrupt Decorum plays a similar role, but in sorcery form.

Have you guys tested or considered multi target discard spells like Unnerve and Syphon Mind? They seem actually viable with a commander such as Kess

Love No Mercy, I'm actually consider running it or have some other effect that is similar to it for my Kess deck. Some "Protection from creatures, hexproof" creature equipped with sword of Xs and Ys deck is constantly attacking me when my stolen protection can't even protect me. Disrupt Decorum looks really good, need a slot for it.

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@Jeff2302 Syphon Mind is a really good card to run in Kess, gives so much value and card advantage. It is a mainstay in my Kess deck. Unnerve isn't that good though, you might want to look into other cards such as Capital Punishment if you want discard.

I have been considering discard as well as directed land destruction. Doubling up on the effect of any sorcery card could open up archetypes that are usually unplayable.

I think if your meta allows it, Land Destruction makes sense. I run Pillage, and it's brutal mid to late game when you cast it twice in a turn. With the right mana base, double Sinkhole for BBBB is just absurd.

Exactly. All those mostly nonviable decks that are great for 1v1, but not good for multiplayer, and are mostly proactive decks or sorcery based decks, all would probably be worthwhile. Doubling up on sorceries that have high impact in multiples will become viable with Kess. This would include burn, discard, and old school land destruction.

Quote from nekorin »

Love No Mercy, I'm actually consider running it or have some other effect that is similar to it for my Kess deck. Some "Protection from creatures, hexproof" creature equipped with sword of Xs and Ys deck is constantly attacking me when my stolen protection can't even protect me. Disrupt Decorum looks really good, need a slot for it.

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@Jeff2302 Syphon Mind is a really good card to run in Kess, gives so much value and card advantage. It is a mainstay in my Kess deck. Unnerve isn't that good though, you might want to look into other cards such as Capital Punishment if you want discard.

So ended up trying a few other multi target discard spells; in addition to Unnerve and Syphon Mind, I've thought of adding Dark Deal, Delirium Skeins and Pox.
Because towards midgame and late game, the Pyroclasm type cards lose their effectiveness and casting them twice would kill Kess while discard does neither and still allows us to control the game


At the moment this is my deck http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/09-09-17-kess-dissident-mage/ (Kiki Twin is back), not sure what I am missing but it has not felt very smooth because it seems like I am torn between comboing out early or prolonging the game without full committing to either. Would love to hear your thoughts

Quote from Jeff2302 »

Quote from nekorin »

Love No Mercy, I'm actually consider running it or have some other effect that is similar to it for my Kess deck. Some "Protection from creatures, hexproof" creature equipped with sword of Xs and Ys deck is constantly attacking me when my stolen protection can't even protect me. Disrupt Decorum looks really good, need a slot for it.

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@Jeff2302 Syphon Mind is a really good card to run in Kess, gives so much value and card advantage. It is a mainstay in my Kess deck. Unnerve isn't that good though, you might want to look into other cards such as Capital Punishment if you want discard.

So ended up trying a few other multi target discard spells; in addition to Unnerve and Syphon Mind, I've thought of adding Dark Deal, Delirium Skeins and Pox.
Because towards midgame and late game, the Pyroclasm type cards lose their effectiveness and casting them twice would kill Kess while discard does neither and still allows us to control the game


At the moment this is my deck http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/09-09-17-kess-dissident-mage/ (Kiki Twin is back), not sure what I am missing but it has not felt very smooth because it seems like I am torn between comboing out early or prolonging the game without full committing to either. Would love to hear your thoughts

I think cards like Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods will always be relevant because there will always be tokens, commanders with low toughness and utility creatures with low toughness (Oracle of Mul Daya, Royal Assassin, Fauna Shaman, etc.). Discard can be weak later in the game when players are in top draw mode.

Syphon Mind gets worse as the game progresses because if there are players that are already eliminated from the game, we draw fewer cards. Pox is too color intensive. Unnerve seems too low powered. For reanimator themed decks I guess Delirium Skeins is really good.

If anything, I'd consider targeted discard like Thoughtseize, because BB for double Thoughtseize is pretty nuts. This also helps us answer enchantments.

So Jeff2302, I get what you are doing, but I feel like you are all over the place. You need to narrow your theme. Are you combo? Reanimator? Storm? Discard?Those can go together some with your specific combo, but in combining them, you make it even more difficult to get them. I don't think the penetrance of reanimator is enough to be reliable with the combo, and the reanimator is a wincon that is unnecessary if your get the combo going. The storm is very shy of becoming an actual event, so it needs bolstered, or there are better uses for those spots. Seems like you should pick a direction. I also feel like Pyroclasm and Mizzium Mortars are relatively weak. I would go with Earthquake and the like. My suggestion would be ditch the combo, go discard/control with a reanimate subtheme, add some single card wincons to replace the combo, and add a few directed discard, especially like Thoughtseize to replace Gitaxian Probe. The goal should be get them to topdeck as soon as possible, destroy their board state, drop a wincon of your own or reanimate one of theirs, and win when they have nothing else to about it. Just my thoughts.

While it wasn't multiplayer, I just got done playing with my deck 1v1 versus a buddy who used two decks. The Ur-Dragon tribal and a Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce goodstuff.

Some observations:
Enemy Lightning Greaves on a big minion like Ramos, Dragon Engine is very tough to deal with. I have 3 artifact removal cards but never drew them so I had to resort to cryptic bounce then another counterspell later.

Closing out a game with Comet Storm + Graveyard Increasing Vengeance is sex.

I was in the driver seat for nearly all the games, it may have just been the specific decks I was playing against, but Kess never died in the majority of the games. Opposing spot removal was nearly nonexistent. However, when she did die, I needed to play cards from my graveyard to get back in the game but the recast was very expensive. Was really wishing I had my Riptide Laboratory. You all should consider it if you don't have it. It's a wonderful card.

I noticed that I was pretty slow to close out the games though. I had such value with my spot removal that I would end up just beating down with Kess + Wormcoil or Thraximunder over the course of 3-4 turns while the opponent was in topdeck mode. There was one game I won via commander damage with Kess. I believe I only lost 2 games, I wasn't keeping track, but it was like an 80% winrate. Again, it may just be the opponent's decks, but this deck is pretty strong; it's super fun and interactive, too.

Here's my decklist: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kess-valuetown/

Quote from precociousapprentice »

In multiplayer, No Mercy is so much more than card advantage. Every attack it discourages often goes someplace else. That is better than removal, since that attack accomplishes our goals of beating our opponents. It does this without creating antipathy in either the person making the attack or the person suffering that same attack, even though we doubly benefit from it. For an identical cost, it is like an anterograde Damnation in that it removes both current and future threats to our victory, but with the benefit of not subtracting from the list of threats our opponents face. Essentially it is like a one sided board wipe combined with Insurrection. Every black deck should at least consider it. Disrupt Decorum plays a similar role, but in sorcery form.

While I don't feel it's completely "up there" with Damnation, No Mercy is indeed very effective.

I wonder if Dissipation Field could play a similar role? It's a little more risky as people might attack us becuase they want to reuse their etb effects but on the other hand it does get rid of indestructable and regenerating creatures as well which No Mercy doesn't do.

Not a fan of Dissipation Field, it gives players reasons to swing into us. There are many reasons to want to bounce creatures back. Additional ETB effects, swing bounce and cast boardwipe so on and forth.

I pretty much agree with you nekorin. It may do the opposite of No Mercy.