Have you thought using alliance of arms with homeward path? Often unexpected combo, because of the difference between controler and owner: you dont control the token produced by alliance of arms and phelddagrif but you own them.
I build a phelddagrif too, and I manage to end 2nd place on a 15 players small event in my LGS, 1st time played the deck against real players, I loved it: killed 1 players with a 36 drawn card by blue sun zenith and the other player has killed himself because he cast too much spells trying to kill me while forced fruition was in play. Man that feels so good, seeing players losing but still smiling from one hear to the others on their face
I will post my decklist, if you want to compare our build.
Personnally, I ended up playing future sight because sometimes I would need to use the card that oracle of mul daya was revealing and couldnt play it. Another point playing future sight is because I also play leyline of anticipation and vedalken orrery: if the card on the top of my library isnt the answer I need, I'm just casting it instant speed and see what the next card is.
Like I said in my previous comment (sorry for the double post btw), I'm playing hive mind, so a prosperity casts at instant speed could eventually OS the whole table.
PS:I really should post my decklist, so you could see what I'm playing and how I'm playing it (maybe in a triple post...)
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Have you thought using alliance of arms with homeward path? Often unexpected combo, because of the difference between controler and owner: you dont control the token produced by alliance of arms and phelddagrif but you own them.
I build a phelddagrif too, and I manage to end 2nd place on a 15 players small event in my LGS, 1st time played the deck against real players, I loved it: killed 1 players with a 36 drawn card by blue sun zenith and the other player has killed himself because he cast too much spells trying to kill me while forced fruition was in play. Man that feels so good, seeing players losing but still smiling from one hear to the others on their face
I will post my decklist, if you want to compare our build.
Alliance of Arms/Phelddagrif don't work with Homeward Path like you think it does:
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
110.5a A token is both owned and controlled by the player under whose control it entered the
battlefield.
Judging from your posts, your deck seems a lot more "group hug" than this list with cards like Alliance of Arms and Prosperity. This style of list is a Bant Control and the "hugs" are extremely targeted rather than a mass benefit to the table primarily using Purple Hippo, bringing up people in order to counteract the more powerful players so they grind each other down until Hippo descends from his throne in order to smite those that survive the attrition. Why give multiple players a benefit (like everyone getting tokens via Alliance of Arms, or everyone drawing cards via Prosperity), benefits that overwhelmingly favor the person taking the next turn after yours due to them untapping with it, rather than only benefiting those you deem fit?
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On another note: Rivals of Ixalan. Slaughter the Strong: looks like cheap mass removal that works against quite a lot other than Sigarda decks (but those always are potent against sacrifice). It feels a lot like Retribution of the Meek that keeps Hippo alive, or a Divine Reckoning that kills off stronger creatures. Flood of Recollection: for instant/sorcery recursion, it's cheaper than Call to Mind even though it can't be abused. Snapcaster isn't on the list right now, but unlike Snapcaster, this exiles itself rather than the spell. I'm a sucker for instant/sorcery recursion, and even though I know Regrowth is stronger, I'm going to mention this. Wayward Swordtooth: An extra Exploration, or a replacement for people without one. World Shaper: Plays best with Tasigur-style decks, but if someone's running a Hippo build with gy recursion, it will do some work. Silent Gravestone: On the flip side of things, grave hate that's got a decent static ability, though it seems worse than Relic. Arch of Orazca:Draws cards. Taps for colorless. Takes a land slot. 'nuff said.
Other cards look interesting but not for this deck. Slaughter and Arch feel the most powerful of those I mentioned.
Have you thought using alliance of arms with homeward path? Often unexpected combo, because of the difference between controler and owner: you dont control the token produced by alliance of arms and phelddagrif but you own them.
I build a phelddagrif too, and I manage to end 2nd place on a 15 players small event in my LGS, 1st time played the deck against real players, I loved it: killed 1 players with a 36 drawn card by blue sun zenith and the other player has killed himself because he cast too much spells trying to kill me while forced fruition was in play. Man that feels so good, seeing players losing but still smiling from one hear to the others on their face
I will post my decklist, if you want to compare our build.
Alliance of Arms/Phelddagrif don't work with Homeward Path like you think it does:
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
110.5a A token is both owned and controlled by the player under whose control it entered the
battlefield.
Judging from your posts, your deck seems a lot more "group hug" than this list with cards like Alliance of Arms and Prosperity. This style of list is a Bant Control and the "hugs" are extremely targeted rather than a mass benefit to the table primarily using Purple Hippo, bringing up people in order to counteract the more powerful players so they grind each other down until Hippo descends from his throne in order to smite those that survive the attrition. Why give multiple players a benefit (like everyone getting tokens via Alliance of Arms, or everyone drawing cards via Prosperity), benefits that overwhelmingly favor the person taking the next turn after yours due to them untapping with it, rather than only benefiting those you deem fit?
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On another note: Rivals of Ixalan. Slaughter the Strong: looks like cheap mass removal that works against quite a lot other than Sigarda decks (but those always are potent against sacrifice). It feels a lot like Retribution of the Meek that keeps Hippo alive, or a Divine Reckoning that kills off stronger creatures. Flood of Recollection: for instant/sorcery recursion, it's cheaper than Call to Mind even though it can't be abused. Snapcaster isn't on the list right now, but unlike Snapcaster, this exiles itself rather than the spell. I'm a sucker for instant/sorcery recursion, and even though I know Regrowth is stronger, I'm going to mention this. Wayward Swordtooth: An extra Exploration, or a replacement for people without one. World Shaper: Plays best with Tasigur-style decks, but if someone's running a Hippo build with gy recursion, it will do some work. Silent Gravestone: On the flip side of things, grave hate that's got a decent static ability, though it seems worse than Relic. Arch of Orazca:Draws cards. Taps for colorless. Takes a land slot. 'nuff said.
Other cards look interesting but not for this deck. Slaughter and Arch feel the most powerful of those I mentioned.
I've made my way with super hippo, and I change it so I now just give alot of cards to draw. When I gave mana and/or land they were just stomping me... ungratefull from all tge gift
Last Saturday, I had my 1st win: angel's grace, then hive mind + enter the infinite + [enlightened tutor[/card] countered by pact of negation. Nobody played blue, they didnt think of countering their own copy of pact, I still had some "each player draw X card"
Thx taking time answering me
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Nobody played blue, they didnt think of countering their own copy of pact
How would they have done that?
Player A counter the copy of player B
Player B counter the copy of player C
Player C counter the copy of player A
They leave me with my only pact of negation, that's how I see it but to play so they should have thought outside of their own point of vue / interest. Most of the people I play against, are more for their win and dont really see the game/table as whole.
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Player A counter the copy of player B
Player B counter the copy of player C
Player C counter the copy of player A
They leave me with my only pact of negation, that's how I see it but to play so they should have thought outside of their own point of vue / interest. Most of the people I play against, are more for their win and dont really see the game/table as whole.
Ah! That's fun — and yeah, most people don't strategize around a larger picture.
I went to look at Hive Mind's rulings. I don't think it would work exactly as you put it; somebody's not going to get their Pact countered. The copies go on the stack and targets are chosen in turn order. So Player A will have to choose something already on the stack, then Player B can target Player A's Pact, then Player C can target Player B's Pact, but nobody could target Player C's Pact. Whoever is last can't have theirs targeted.
10/1/2009 If a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, Hive Mind’s ability triggers and is put on the stack on top of that spell. Hive Mind’s ability will resolve first. When it does, it creates a number of copies of that spell equal to the number of players in the game minus one. First the player whose turn it is (or, if that’s the player who cast the original spell, the player to that player’s left) puts his or her copy on the stack, choosing new targets for it if he or she likes. Then each other player in turn order does the same. The last copy put on the stack will be the first one that resolves. (Note that the very last thing to happen is that the original spell resolves.)
This style of list is a Bant Control and the "hugs" are extremely targeted rather than a mass benefit to the table primarily using Purple Hippo, bringing up people in order to counteract the more powerful players so they grind each other down until Hippo descends from his throne in order to smite those that survive the attrition. Why give multiple players a benefit (like everyone getting tokens via Alliance of Arms, or everyone drawing cards via Prosperity), benefits that overwhelmingly favor the person taking the next turn after yours due to them untapping with it, rather than only benefiting those you deem fit?
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On another note: Rivals of Ixalan. Slaughter the Strong: looks like cheap mass removal that works against quite a lot other than Sigarda decks (but those always are potent against sacrifice). It feels a lot like Retribution of the Meek that keeps Hippo alive, or a Divine Reckoning that kills off stronger creatures. Flood of Recollection: for instant/sorcery recursion, it's cheaper than Call to Mind even though it can't be abused. Snapcaster isn't on the list right now, but unlike Snapcaster, this exiles itself rather than the spell. I'm a sucker for instant/sorcery recursion, and even though I know Regrowth is stronger, I'm going to mention this. Wayward Swordtooth: An extra Exploration, or a replacement for people without one. World Shaper: Plays best with Tasigur-style decks, but if someone's running a Hippo build with gy recursion, it will do some work. Silent Gravestone: On the flip side of things, grave hate that's got a decent static ability, though it seems worse than Relic. Arch of Orazca:Draws cards. Taps for colorless. Takes a land slot. 'nuff said.
Other cards look interesting but not for this deck. Slaughter and Arch feel the most powerful of those I mentioned.
Lol I love that description of how the deck works. Spot on.
Here are the cards I'm thinking about for this set.
slaughter the strong - tough to say. The ability to leave phelddagrif up is fine but I think not worth the downside of not killing crucial creatures. He's kind of made to be bounced anyway, and you don't need him to block if the board is empty from a normal wipe. On the other hand, low cmc and it deals well with indestructibles.
expel from orazca - I think this merits a mention. I like temporary removal because you can put other people in a situation where they're motivated to kill the person with the threatening permanent before it comes back into play. Plus it's cheap and flexible. Might be a slight upgrade to existing removal but nothing amazing obviously.
nezahal, primal tide - pretty against the spirit of the deck, but it's a strong card. I think too threatening though.
azor's gateway - Not sure if this is worth considering. Cycling can be nice early, and the land is great albeit far from broken in this deck. Its only really nasty use I can think of offhand is with the X draw spells, when it becomes pretty strong. The bigger problem is more likely the hackles it's likely to raise, and how slow it is. But I love flip cards so I'll probably try it.
arch of orazca - this is my favorite from the set probably. Not super threatening (one hopes) but a great CA generator in the late game when you need it. Basically a fixed conqueror's galleon for this deck.
Btw if anyone wants me to pay attention to one of my threads, I recommend replying to my post so I get a notification. I always feel bummed when my lists are getting attention but I failed to notice
Btw if anyone wants me to pay attention to one of my threads, I recommend replying to my post so I get a notification. I always feel bummed when my lists are getting attention but I failed to notice
Btw if anyone wants me to pay attention to one of my threads, I recommend replying to my post so I get a notification. I always feel bummed when my lists are getting attention but I failed to notice
I went to look at Hive Mind's rulings. I don't think it would work exactly as you put it; somebody's not going to get their Pact countered. The copies go on the stack and targets are chosen in turn order. So Player A will have to choose something already on the stack, then Player B can target Player A's Pact, then Player C can target Player B's Pact, but nobody could target Player C's Pact. Whoever is last can't have theirs targeted.
10/1/2009 If a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, Hive Mind’s ability triggers and is put on the stack on top of that spell. Hive Mind’s ability will resolve first. When it does, it creates a number of copies of that spell equal to the number of players in the game minus one. First the player whose turn it is (or, if that’s the player who cast the original spell, the player to that player’s left) puts his or her copy on the stack, choosing new targets for it if he or she likes. Then each other player in turn order does the same. The last copy put on the stack will be the first one that resolves. (Note that the very last thing to happen is that the original spell resolves.)
It should work if I'm player D, but nevermind, I won
And just in case, I casted enter the infinite under hive mind to make them draw to death.
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Azor's Gateway just looks like bait for Naturalize effects or something that gets caught up in wider removal like Bane of Progress due to how long it takes to get active and how you want to be careful with what you exile since the only way you're getting it back is Riftsweeper style effects. I wish the UG flipland did more for the deck, but at least Ixalan had a lot of goodies for us in that department. Slaughter the Strong mainly got me excited since it's 3 cmc where most mass removal is 4+. It's no replacement for stuff like Wrath of God-style effects, but its fast enough to handle a speedy Kaalia or someone Entombing/Reanimating something potent, stuff normally handled by Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares/Pongify, but another piece of cheaper removal doesn't hurt. Blazing Hope looked promising until I realized I misread it in my excitement as "less than" rather than "greater than". It seems like we won't ever get good removal cheap again, just like how they refuse to print good 2 cmc counters again with Cancel being the new standard.
At least the tribal decks got a bunch of toys so we can see other people having fun with phat dinos before they eat a board wipe if they turn our way.
Azor's Gateway just looks like bait for Naturalize effects or something that gets caught up in wider removal like Bane of Progress due to how long it takes to get active and how you want to be careful with what you exile since the only way you're getting it back is Riftsweeper style effects. I wish the UG flipland did more for the deck, but at least Ixalan had a lot of goodies for us in that department. Slaughter the Strong mainly got me excited since it's 3 cmc where most mass removal is 4+. It's no replacement for stuff like Wrath of God-style effects, but its fast enough to handle a speedy Kaalia or someone Entombing/Reanimating something potent, stuff normally handled by Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares/Pongify, but another piece of cheaper removal doesn't hurt. Blazing Hope looked promising until I realized I misread it in my excitement as "less than" rather than "greater than". It seems like we won't ever get good removal cheap again, just like how they refuse to print good 2 cmc counters again with Cancel being the new standard.
At least the tribal decks got a bunch of toys so we can see other people having fun with phat dinos before they eat a board wipe if they turn our way.
One thing that I think is sort of interesting, related to azor's gateway, is that I think people tend to be less suspicious of Phelddy if it seems like you're doing something, but something stoppable. By which I mean...if all you're doing is hoarding cards and being secretive, I think people reasonably assume you're building towards some sort of combo or other nonsense. Whereas if you're clearly doing something - i.e. trying to flip a land - then especially if they have an answer, it doesn't look nearly as suspicious. I don't know that Azor's gateway is a good card to do that sort of thing with - given that it seems like many decks will easily win the game the turn it flips - but as long as you keep it at 2-3 different CMCs I wonder if it might make you look less threatening than if you weren't doing anything visible. I think there's some truth in there somewhere, even if gateway isn't the best option. If it seems like you can be easily thwarted, I think that's a good look. I'll add that I often end up spewing out some removal on non-vital targets if it feels like I'm sitting on too many cards, just so it looks like I'm not up to something quite as much.
Also I mean...come on...who doesn't want to give some scrub with a precon 45 hippos and watch him go to town on your enemies? Or nearly doubling your + an enemy's life total every turn with pulse of the fields? There's some serious lulz to be had if that thing flips. Even if it's not a long-term inclusion I think it merits a little experimentation
I was just thinking about the card for things like U Sun's Zenith and totally forgot about the fact it made colored mana, making it more like Storm Herd...kinda. You could also draw people out with it with Hippo's U ability when at 1 vs 1 mode.
Every time I see it talked about I just think of Coffers and how it dies to every single land-hate possible, but with a lot more hoops to make it work.
On another note, for people who've tried it, what do you think of Curse of Verbosity? How has it played out for you?
I was just thinking about the card for things like U Sun's Zenith and totally forgot about the fact it made colored mana, making it more like Storm Herd...kinda. You could also draw people out with it with Hippo's U ability when at 1 vs 1 mode.
Every time I see it talked about I just think of Coffers and how it dies to every single land-hate possible, but with a lot more hoops to make it work.
On another note, for people who've tried it, what do you think of Curse of Verbosity? How has it played out for you?
I think if you ever flip it, though, you can put divine retribution on anyone dumb enough to try to kill it. Yep, you killed my land. Now your opponent has 40 hippos and my cooperation to help kill you. Good luck dude. The bigger risk is it dying before it flips...but I've been fine with amulet getting killed before it flips sometimes. Usually I find I'm sitting on a ton of cards early anyway, so it's nbd if I lose one for no value.
I haven't tried any of the curses. The blue one is basically the only one that looks any good for us. The fact that it can put a target on someone with a strong deck is great...the fact that it makes that target permanent is less great, the fact that you probably don't need to draw that many cards is less great, the fact that you can't easily stop your other opponents from drawing cards is less great...idk a see a lot of downsides. But I am also curious if anyone else has given it a go. It's at least in the spirit of the deck.
EDIT: btw you should be aware: Phelddagrif's blue ability is an optional draw for your opponent. So you can't beat people by drawing them out with Phelddagrif alone, although he can help until they get wise. Mostly the ability to give an opponent lethal numbers of hippos would be the allure of the card, I think.
I think I've finally come up with a rough draft that I kind of like. I haven't been able to play Magic in person for some time so the emphasis here is on rough. I've made a few concessions to budget and I'm playing cards that Dirk has already criticized, namely powerful recursive cards like Forbid, Seasons Past, Holistic Wisdom, and Constant Mists because I really like them and I don't have anywhere else to play them. While they all have lots of raw power and increase how much information you're giving away, since I'm running mostly answers and my gameplan is "survive until you're playing 1v1 against your preferred target," I feel like the trade-off of making yourself more of a threat is balanced out by being able to use your spells to bolster up weaker opponents and thus make allies against the current Big Bad. Besides, after the novelty of the deck has worn off in certain playgroups I think powerful cards are necessary to not fall behind when your opponents inevitably figure out what you're doing.
Phelddagrif: The War on Hugs
"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." - Sun Tzu
The roolz:
1) No tutors. In this case I would prefer consistency instead of relying on silver bullets. This is to the detriment of the deck intentionally.
2) No creatures. Aren't they just the worst? Seriously, I'm going to be blowing up the world with alarming regularity so they become just one more thing to worry about.
3) Nothing particularly pricy. Let's say anything over $20 is unnecessary. Again, this is to keep the deck's raw power down. Ideally this will help lower the deck's threat profile.
I hate to be that guy but I think more 'aikido' style cards would be good here. I want to run enough cards that make people less likely to attack me because they know I can I can make doing so extremely unprofitable. This would further the element of psychological warfare the deck already has. So, what are some more cards like Domineering Will, Comeuppance, Reins of Power, and thebetterfogs?
You might try illusionist's gambit. And don't forget settle the wreckage. Stuff like tangle can be a good way to punish "misplaced aggression" too and it has that quality of only dealing with the situation temporarily, so that people are motivated to deal with it more permanently themselves.
I'm a little surprised to see counterspells like negate and dissolve in your list. Not everyone wants to shell out for a mana drain, but still, I'd think there are better options for most budgets.
How have the cantrip spells like preordain and ponder been? And the ramp spells? Personally I'd be more tempted to play wargate over kodama's etc, since it can hit kor haven and the like. Which, btw, you should probably be running if you want ways to deter attacks.
You might try illusionist's gambit. And don't forget settle the wreckage. Stuff like tangle can be a good way to punish "misplaced aggression" too and it has that quality of only dealing with the situation temporarily, so that people are motivated to deal with it more permanently themselves.
I'll chew on these tonight at work. Gambit and Tangle seem great but I'm incredibly skeptical of Settle. Low cost, instant pseudo-Wraths are nice but I just view the nightmare scenario of them going wide and getting 5+ lands out of the deal. Beats dying, though.
I'm a little surprised to see counterspells like negate and dissolve in your list. Not everyone wants to shell out for a mana drain, but still, I'd think there are better options for most budgets.
How have the cantrip spells like preordain and ponder been? And the ramp spells? Personally I'd be more tempted to play wargate over kodama's etc, since it can hit kor haven and the like. Which, btw, you should probably be running if you want ways to deter attacks.
Keep in mind I've only been able to play with my brother over the Internet in 1v1 games (which is probably the worst way to test this deck) but...
Negate has been just fine. Obviously it's no Mana Drain, but it's still an easily castable 2cmc hard counter. While it can't stop powerful ETB critters, it stops all other sorts of problems like bomb card draw spells, other counters, and game-ending haymakers. I think it's underrated in the format, honestly. Give it a shot, you may be surprised. Dissolve on the other hand is adequate at best. I waver between it and Dismiss at times but 4cmc for a counter is a bit much even if it cantrips. Memory Lapse might be better.
The cantrips are fantastic. I don't run tutors, so they improve the consistency of the deck as best they can without drawing hate (in theory). I've even been thinking of adding Impulse, Anticipate, and Telling Time. Okay, maybe not the last two, but digging for answers four and three deep at instant speed seems strong.
Cultivate et al. do what they say on the tin. +1 ramp is fairly innocuous and my manabase is a little weak without fetches so they're fine. Wargate is actually a great idea. I'll add some more techy lands in and a few more permanents like Lignify and Search for Azcanta and make a package of it.
I haven't gotten to try settle much yet because I've mostly been using the $2 budget version of the deck (mostly as a test to prove that I can win consistently even without bringing my wallet to bear). I definitely see the risk, but it does solve hexproof and indestructible problems. Pretty trash against tokens, but it seems like an ok answer to big beaters and a great answer to voltron strats.
1v1 with phelddagrif? Yeah that's not really the intended use lol. That would definitely skew in favor of high-threat cards like the buybacks.
Negate seems ok but mostly I just think it seems better to run something like commit // memory. Versatility often seems more important than efficiency, since we're often sitting with all our mana up anyway. stuff like cryptic and confluence are also versatile while bringing some extra power if needed. I've also been liking spell swindle - expensive to hold up, but single-use mana is a great way to ensure we're never tapped out for the rest of the game. And sweet synergy with treasure map which has been fun.
Good point on cantrips - the nature of the deck is such that, if you desperately need a counter/removal/wipe, you've got pretty decent odds of hitting them in the top 4 or so cards with an impulse or something. That might open the door to cards like supreme will, peer through depths, fortune's favor, and flash of insight being pretty good here. I'm less convinced by sorcery speed ones though - good for hitting board wipes, but a bit slow if there's some critical spell you must counter or creature attacking you for lethal. I guess if you notice your hand is missing (a counter/removal/wipe) you can pick whatever is missing though. And it's nice to have cards that double as lands when you're stuck on 4 or whatever.
1v1 with phelddagrif? Yeah that's not really the intended use lol. That would definitely skew in favor of high-threat cards like the buybacks.
Yeah... to be fair, though, I've learned that the deck is really good in 1v1. I think you're right about the buyback cards unfortunately. My brother has learned to hate Constant Mists.
Negate seems ok but mostly I just think it seems better to run something like commit // memory. Versatility often seems more important than efficiency, since we're often sitting with all our mana up anyway. stuff like cryptic and confluence are also versatile while bringing some extra power if needed. I've also been liking spell swindle - expensive to hold up, but single-use mana is a great way to ensure we're never tapped out for the rest of the game. And sweet synergy with treasure map which has been fun.
I agree that versatility is great. I love modal spells and planeswalkers because of the pseudo-virtual card advantage inherent in them, so I can definitely get behind that idea. Commit // Memory seems pretty good. Disruption that later refills your hand in an emergency is nice and I like the fact that it buys you more than one turn like Memory Lapse does. 4cmc can be awkward but you're right about sitting on a healthy amount of mana. The deck plays out like BBS/Draw, Go decks of old so playing the more expensive instants is acceptable.
Good point on cantrips - the nature of the deck is such that, if you desperately need a counter/removal/wipe, you've got pretty decent odds of hitting them in the top 4 or so cards with an impulse or something. That might open the door to cards like supreme will, peer through depths, fortune's favor, and flash of insight being pretty good here. I'm less convinced by sorcery speed ones though - good for hitting board wipes, but a bit slow if there's some critical spell you must counter or creature attacking you for lethal. I guess if you notice your hand is missing (a counter/removal/wipe) you can pick whatever is missing though. And it's nice to have cards that double as lands when you're stuck on 4 or whatever.
Holy crap I forgot Supreme Will was a card. Tax counters are much better than people give them credit for and when that mode becomes irrelevant it trades out for something that is. Excellent choice. Peer is on the cusp of playable but it seems miserable on turn 2 when you need a land.
Even the 1 cmc sorceries are great to me. "U: Trade a card in your hand for the best card you find on top" is incredibly versatile and powerful at a bargain bin cost. I'm never sad to see them because early on they smooth out land drops and later on they become wipes, spot removal, or counters as you need them. Boring as they may be, they do so much work it's absurd. I couldn't imagine playing a heavily blue-based deck without them.
EDIT: Ha, I had already cut Holistic Wisdom. I guess I'll cut AEtherize as it seems redundant with all the other fog/protection spells I'm running.
Oh, also, when do you try to run Phelddy out? Sorry if you've gone over this elsewhere but I've had trouble timing it properly. T6 or T7 seems like a good choice to be able to hold up mana for emergency removal, protection, or whatever else, but that's typically when you start seeing wraths deployed.
First time I ran constant mists I got it out with drownyard temple....quickly decided that was too nasty as it presents enemies with a potentially unbeatable defense for some decks, which is the same problem as having some unbeatable offense in terms of threat assessment. Anyway I agree it's just great in 1v1.
Supreme will does seem like a good inclusion, I should try it. good point on peer, impulse is def superior. My biggest complaint about the 1 cmc cards is that often you want to leave up UU for a counter or something on enemy turns and sometimes only have 2 blue available, especially with budgety manabases. With a good non-budget manabase I could see that being less of a problem, but I'd hate to have to decide between putting down my counter shields and making use of my cards. Of course that problem isn't present for instants like brainstorm and impulse so I'm more amenable to those ones.
When to play phelddy depends a lot on the table. If I see someone playing a deck that looks like it may be trying to pull off some BS early - a nasty commander like zur, jace, or narset in the command zone, expensive manabases (irony that my manabase is also expensive notwithstanding), tutors and potential combo pieces, etc., I'm likely to keep the shields up as much as possible and not play phelddagrif until either I'm convinced there isn't a threat, the threat is resolved, or I have a ton of mana and there's no reason not to. On the other hand, if I see lower powered decks and don't smell anything dangerous, I'll run him on turn 4 if I have nothing better to do, or 5 if I think a board wipe might be incoming based on the rest of the board. In lower powered metas he's a pretty decent blocker as a 4/4, a flyer, and with the potential to return to hand while benefitting someone besides the attacker - all those add up to pretty decent deterrence.
So, Dominaria for Purple Hippo:
Not much catches my eye for Phelddagrif but it is at least good to keep an eye out for what other decks will be using.
For Hippo: Dub: Makes it a Phelddagrif Knight. Then it becomes Sir Phelddagrif. Jousting Lance: So Sir Phelddagrif can win the tournament and the heart of the princess. Helm of the Host: Defeat your foes with an army of Phelddagrifs.
More serious things to look at: Urza's Ruinous Blast: More of a meta call since it doesn't hit legendaries, but mass exile is worth a look. Blink of an Eye: Into the Roil #2, or #1 if you like this art better. Deep Freeze: Lignify variant, good for keeping down a commander instead of letting it get recasted. The Mirari Conjecture: More expensive, but a double recursion and can double up on a removal spell (live the dream with a double Return to Dust). Precognition Field: Future Sight gives more power on what you can play off the top, but I like looking at hidden information, which helps with bluffs. Unwind: A free Negate, like how Rewind is a free Counterspell. Tatyova, Benthic Druid: More card draw for doing what we want to do: Sitting around and playing lands. Memorial to Genius: Card draw on a land. Better with a Life from the Loam package version of hippo.
So, Dominaria for Purple Hippo:
Not much catches my eye for Phelddagrif but it is at least good to keep an eye out for what other decks will be using.
For Hippo: Dub: Makes it a Phelddagrif Knight. Then it becomes Sir Phelddagrif. Jousting Lance: So Sir Phelddagrif can win the tournament and the heart of the princess. Helm of the Host: Defeat your foes with an army of Phelddagrifs.
More serious things to look at: Urza's Ruinous Blast: More of a meta call since it doesn't hit legendaries, but mass exile is worth a look. Blink of an Eye: Into the Roil #2, or #1 if you like this art better. Deep Freeze: Lignify variant, good for keeping down a commander instead of letting it get recasted. The Mirari Conjecture: More expensive, but a double recursion and can double up on a removal spell (live the dream with a double Return to Dust). Precognition Field: Future Sight gives more power on what you can play off the top, but I like looking at hidden information, which helps with bluffs. Unwind: A free Negate, like how Rewind is a free Counterspell. Tatyova, Benthic Druid: More card draw for doing what we want to do: Sitting around and playing lands. Memorial to Genius: Card draw on a land. Better with a Life from the Loam package version of hippo.
As far as removal goes, invoke the divine is an ok disenchant variant for the slower table, and seal away is probably too far down the list of white removal to be in any consideration, but it's still pretty decent. I don't really like deep freeze too much because, although it's a nice way to take a commander out of commission, this deck wants to play enough board wipes that it's not going to last very long, and it's otherwise a very unimpressive 3 mana sorcery-speed removal. Already having 2 similar enchantments that turn it into a land, which are much harder to interact with, make it a pretty poor option, I'm not running lignify in any of my builds and this is almost strictly worse.
Mirari conjecture I'm also not big on - double casting is fun but it's only one turn and it's very telegraphed. Telegraphing a board wipe from your grave is also a recipe for getting smacked. So I think politically it's not a great card.
Precognition field is a lot more interesting. I think this is a pretty reasonable card for CA purposes that doesn't have a high threat profile. Being a nonland permanent makes it less viable for builds with a lot of full clears though.
Unwind is quite solid although very replaceable. It's sort of bad in counter wars, in exactly the way pact of negation isn't, so it's sort of a meta call.
urza's ruinous blast is interesting, but like a lot of asymmetrical wipes I think they're a little subpar because ultimately we don't care about our commander because he just returns to hand, so missing enemy targets in exchange for sparing phelddy's life is mostly just a downside. And the deck doesn't play a lot of other legendary permanents either. So I think it's probably a no.
Mox amber I think is at least ok. It essentially provides you a guaranteed U to activate phelddy's return to hand option, although idk if that's worth a card.
Memorial is another respectable utility land. Idk that it actually makes the cut, but I think etbt is better than tapping for colorless (a la blighted cataract), so it's reasonable if not amazing.
So... I really like this deck (I already own a Mathas,Fiend Seeker deck which is kind of political, I guess) and I really want to build something like it. However, my budget is pretty small, I would say around $100. Which cards would you consider to be the most crucial ones in this deck and can you recommend any budget alternatives to the other ones? I can work out the mana base myself, my area isn't too competitive so tap lands etc. are not that much of a problem, however I need help figuring out the rest of the deck
As it turns out, you're in massive luck. Check out the first phelddagrif link in my sig (my decklists are in order from newest to oldest) which is my 2DH version - 2DH meaning each card is $2 or less, so the total cost should probably be under $100. Enjoy!
As far as your general question - the structure of this deck is really simple - you've got phelddagrif, you've got lands, and you've got some mixture of board wipes, counterspells, and targeted removal. Within those categories you can pretty much pick whatever is in your price range, as long as it's decent. So this is definitely a deck that's very budget-flexible, the only card that's absolutely mandatory is phelddagrif itself.
(You can also throw in some value generators like arch of orazca, but those are optional, and you should try to pick the one(s) you think are best suited to the political environment - i.e. if the meta is high powered, you might want a high-powered value engine like life from the loam + cycling lands. If your meta is low-powered, arch is probably better. The goal is to avoid being the threat while not falling too far behind in card advantage. The more powerful your meta, the more CA you'll need to keep up, and the less likely a powerful draw engine is to make you the threat)
So I am swapping two of my decks (a Mathas, Fiend Seeker deck that is very political and a Narset, Enlightened Master super friends deck to a Mardu Queen Marchesa Superfriends and a Phelddagrif politics deck), and this seems like a good template for that. I had a few questions in looking at it:
I build a phelddagrif too, and I manage to end 2nd place on a 15 players small event in my LGS, 1st time played the deck against real players, I loved it: killed 1 players with a 36 drawn card by blue sun zenith and the other player has killed himself because he cast too much spells trying to kill me while forced fruition was in play. Man that feels so good, seeing players losing but still smiling from one hear to the others on their face
I will post my decklist, if you want to compare our build.
Like I said in my previous comment (sorry for the double post btw), I'm playing hive mind, so a prosperity casts at instant speed could eventually OS the whole table.
PS:I really should post my decklist, so you could see what I'm playing and how I'm playing it (maybe in a triple post...)
Judging from your posts, your deck seems a lot more "group hug" than this list with cards like Alliance of Arms and Prosperity. This style of list is a Bant Control and the "hugs" are extremely targeted rather than a mass benefit to the table primarily using Purple Hippo, bringing up people in order to counteract the more powerful players so they grind each other down until Hippo descends from his throne in order to smite those that survive the attrition. Why give multiple players a benefit (like everyone getting tokens via Alliance of Arms, or everyone drawing cards via Prosperity), benefits that overwhelmingly favor the person taking the next turn after yours due to them untapping with it, rather than only benefiting those you deem fit?
--------------------------------
On another note: Rivals of Ixalan.
Slaughter the Strong: looks like cheap mass removal that works against quite a lot other than Sigarda decks (but those always are potent against sacrifice). It feels a lot like Retribution of the Meek that keeps Hippo alive, or a Divine Reckoning that kills off stronger creatures.
Flood of Recollection: for instant/sorcery recursion, it's cheaper than Call to Mind even though it can't be abused. Snapcaster isn't on the list right now, but unlike Snapcaster, this exiles itself rather than the spell. I'm a sucker for instant/sorcery recursion, and even though I know Regrowth is stronger, I'm going to mention this.
Wayward Swordtooth: An extra Exploration, or a replacement for people without one.
World Shaper: Plays best with Tasigur-style decks, but if someone's running a Hippo build with gy recursion, it will do some work.
Silent Gravestone: On the flip side of things, grave hate that's got a decent static ability, though it seems worse than Relic.
Arch of Orazca:Draws cards. Taps for colorless. Takes a land slot. 'nuff said.
Other cards look interesting but not for this deck. Slaughter and Arch feel the most powerful of those I mentioned.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
I've made my way with super hippo, and I change it so I now just give alot of cards to draw. When I gave mana and/or land they were just stomping me... ungratefull from all tge gift
Last Saturday, I had my 1st win: angel's grace, then hive mind + enter the infinite + [enlightened tutor[/card] countered by pact of negation. Nobody played blue, they didnt think of countering their own copy of pact, I still had some "each player draw X card"
Thx taking time answering me
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Player A counter the copy of player B
Player B counter the copy of player C
Player C counter the copy of player A
They leave me with my only pact of negation, that's how I see it but to play so they should have thought outside of their own point of vue / interest. Most of the people I play against, are more for their win and dont really see the game/table as whole.
I went to look at Hive Mind's rulings. I don't think it would work exactly as you put it; somebody's not going to get their Pact countered. The copies go on the stack and targets are chosen in turn order. So Player A will have to choose something already on the stack, then Player B can target Player A's Pact, then Player C can target Player B's Pact, but nobody could target Player C's Pact. Whoever is last can't have theirs targeted.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Here are the cards I'm thinking about for this set.
slaughter the strong - tough to say. The ability to leave phelddagrif up is fine but I think not worth the downside of not killing crucial creatures. He's kind of made to be bounced anyway, and you don't need him to block if the board is empty from a normal wipe. On the other hand, low cmc and it deals well with indestructibles.
expel from orazca - I think this merits a mention. I like temporary removal because you can put other people in a situation where they're motivated to kill the person with the threatening permanent before it comes back into play. Plus it's cheap and flexible. Might be a slight upgrade to existing removal but nothing amazing obviously.
nezahal, primal tide - pretty against the spirit of the deck, but it's a strong card. I think too threatening though.
azor's gateway - Not sure if this is worth considering. Cycling can be nice early, and the land is great albeit far from broken in this deck. Its only really nasty use I can think of offhand is with the X draw spells, when it becomes pretty strong. The bigger problem is more likely the hackles it's likely to raise, and how slow it is. But I love flip cards so I'll probably try it.
arch of orazca - this is my favorite from the set probably. Not super threatening (one hopes) but a great CA generator in the late game when you need it. Basically a fixed conqueror's galleon for this deck.
Btw if anyone wants me to pay attention to one of my threads, I recommend replying to my post so I get a notification. I always feel bummed when my lists are getting attention but I failed to notice
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It should work if I'm player D, but nevermind, I won
And just in case, I casted enter the infinite under hive mind to make them draw to death.
Slaughter the Strong mainly got me excited since it's 3 cmc where most mass removal is 4+. It's no replacement for stuff like Wrath of God-style effects, but its fast enough to handle a speedy Kaalia or someone Entombing/Reanimating something potent, stuff normally handled by Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares/Pongify, but another piece of cheaper removal doesn't hurt.
Blazing Hope looked promising until I realized I misread it in my excitement as "less than" rather than "greater than". It seems like we won't ever get good removal cheap again, just like how they refuse to print good 2 cmc counters again with Cancel being the new standard.
At least the tribal decks got a bunch of toys so we can see other people having fun with phat dinos before they eat a board wipe if they turn our way.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Also I mean...come on...who doesn't want to give some scrub with a precon 45 hippos and watch him go to town on your enemies? Or nearly doubling your + an enemy's life total every turn with pulse of the fields? There's some serious lulz to be had if that thing flips. Even if it's not a long-term inclusion I think it merits a little experimentation
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Every time I see it talked about I just think of Coffers and how it dies to every single land-hate possible, but with a lot more hoops to make it work.
On another note, for people who've tried it, what do you think of Curse of Verbosity? How has it played out for you?
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
I haven't tried any of the curses. The blue one is basically the only one that looks any good for us. The fact that it can put a target on someone with a strong deck is great...the fact that it makes that target permanent is less great, the fact that you probably don't need to draw that many cards is less great, the fact that you can't easily stop your other opponents from drawing cards is less great...idk a see a lot of downsides. But I am also curious if anyone else has given it a go. It's at least in the spirit of the deck.
EDIT: btw you should be aware: Phelddagrif's blue ability is an optional draw for your opponent. So you can't beat people by drawing them out with Phelddagrif alone, although he can help until they get wise. Mostly the ability to give an opponent lethal numbers of hippos would be the allure of the card, I think.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." - Sun Tzu
The roolz:
1) No tutors. In this case I would prefer consistency instead of relying on silver bullets. This is to the detriment of the deck intentionally.
2) No creatures. Aren't they just the worst? Seriously, I'm going to be blowing up the world with alarming regularity so they become just one more thing to worry about.
3) Nothing particularly pricy. Let's say anything over $20 is unnecessary. Again, this is to keep the deck's raw power down. Ideally this will help lower the deck's threat profile.
1 Phelddagrif
Instants: 41
1x AEtherspouts
1x Arcane Denial
1x Bant Charm
1x Beast Within
1x Brainstorm
1x Comeuppance
1x Commit // Memory
1x Condescend
1x Counterspell
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Dig Through Time
1x Disallow
1x Dissolve
1x Domineering Will
1x Dream Fracture
1x Evacuation
1x Exclude
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Impulse
1x Insidious Will
1x Into the Roil
1x Krosan Grip
1x Moment's Peace
1x Nature's Claim
1x Negate
1x Path to Exile
1x Pongify
1x Pulse of the Grid
1x Rapid Hybridization
1x Reality Shift
1x Reins of Power
1x Settle the Wreckage
1x Spell Swindle
1x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Supreme Will
1x Swan Song
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Reclamation
1x Teferi's Protection
1x Voidslime
1x Akroma's Vengeance
1x Austere Command
1x Cultivate
1x Hallowed Burial
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Mystic Speculation
1x Ponder
1x Preordain
1x Regrowth
1x Rout
1x Seasons Past
1x Serum Visions
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Tragic Arrogance
1x Treasure Cruise
1x Wargate
Enchantments: 6
1x Darksteel Mutation
1x Imprisoned in the Moon
1x Lignify
1x Search for Azcanta
1x Song of the Dryads
1x Telepathy
Artifacts: 1
1x Sol Ring
Land: 36
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Breeding Pool
1x Brushland
1x Command Tower
7x Forest
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Hinterland Harbor
11x Island
1x Kor Haven
1x Maze of Ith
5x Plains
1x Seaside Citadel
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Temple Garden
1x Yavimaya Coast
I hate to be that guy but I think more 'aikido' style cards would be good here. I want to run enough cards that make people less likely to attack me because they know I can I can make doing so extremely unprofitable. This would further the element of psychological warfare the deck already has. So, what are some more cards like Domineering Will, Comeuppance, Reins of Power, and the better fogs?
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I'm a little surprised to see counterspells like negate and dissolve in your list. Not everyone wants to shell out for a mana drain, but still, I'd think there are better options for most budgets.
How have the cantrip spells like preordain and ponder been? And the ramp spells? Personally I'd be more tempted to play wargate over kodama's etc, since it can hit kor haven and the like. Which, btw, you should probably be running if you want ways to deter attacks.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'll chew on these tonight at work. Gambit and Tangle seem great but I'm incredibly skeptical of Settle. Low cost, instant pseudo-Wraths are nice but I just view the nightmare scenario of them going wide and getting 5+ lands out of the deal. Beats dying, though.
Keep in mind I've only been able to play with my brother over the Internet in 1v1 games (which is probably the worst way to test this deck) but...
Negate has been just fine. Obviously it's no Mana Drain, but it's still an easily castable 2cmc hard counter. While it can't stop powerful ETB critters, it stops all other sorts of problems like bomb card draw spells, other counters, and game-ending haymakers. I think it's underrated in the format, honestly. Give it a shot, you may be surprised. Dissolve on the other hand is adequate at best. I waver between it and Dismiss at times but 4cmc for a counter is a bit much even if it cantrips. Memory Lapse might be better.
The cantrips are fantastic. I don't run tutors, so they improve the consistency of the deck as best they can without drawing hate (in theory). I've even been thinking of adding Impulse, Anticipate, and Telling Time. Okay, maybe not the last two, but digging for answers four and three deep at instant speed seems strong.
Cultivate et al. do what they say on the tin. +1 ramp is fairly innocuous and my manabase is a little weak without fetches so they're fine. Wargate is actually a great idea. I'll add some more techy lands in and a few more permanents like Lignify and Search for Azcanta and make a package of it.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
1v1 with phelddagrif? Yeah that's not really the intended use lol. That would definitely skew in favor of high-threat cards like the buybacks.
Negate seems ok but mostly I just think it seems better to run something like commit // memory. Versatility often seems more important than efficiency, since we're often sitting with all our mana up anyway. stuff like cryptic and confluence are also versatile while bringing some extra power if needed. I've also been liking spell swindle - expensive to hold up, but single-use mana is a great way to ensure we're never tapped out for the rest of the game. And sweet synergy with treasure map which has been fun.
Good point on cantrips - the nature of the deck is such that, if you desperately need a counter/removal/wipe, you've got pretty decent odds of hitting them in the top 4 or so cards with an impulse or something. That might open the door to cards like supreme will, peer through depths, fortune's favor, and flash of insight being pretty good here. I'm less convinced by sorcery speed ones though - good for hitting board wipes, but a bit slow if there's some critical spell you must counter or creature attacking you for lethal. I guess if you notice your hand is missing (a counter/removal/wipe) you can pick whatever is missing though. And it's nice to have cards that double as lands when you're stuck on 4 or whatever.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I agree that versatility is great. I love modal spells and planeswalkers because of the pseudo-virtual card advantage inherent in them, so I can definitely get behind that idea. Commit // Memory seems pretty good. Disruption that later refills your hand in an emergency is nice and I like the fact that it buys you more than one turn like Memory Lapse does. 4cmc can be awkward but you're right about sitting on a healthy amount of mana. The deck plays out like BBS/Draw, Go decks of old so playing the more expensive instants is acceptable.
Holy crap I forgot Supreme Will was a card. Tax counters are much better than people give them credit for and when that mode becomes irrelevant it trades out for something that is. Excellent choice. Peer is on the cusp of playable but it seems miserable on turn 2 when you need a land.
Even the 1 cmc sorceries are great to me. "U: Trade a card in your hand for the best card you find on top" is incredibly versatile and powerful at a bargain bin cost. I'm never sad to see them because early on they smooth out land drops and later on they become wipes, spot removal, or counters as you need them. Boring as they may be, they do so much work it's absurd. I couldn't imagine playing a heavily blue-based deck without them.
- Constant Mists
- Capsize
- AEtherize
- Wildest Dreams
- Thaumatic Compass
- Dissolve
- Hour of Revelation
- Blue Sun's Zenith
- 3 Temples
- Plains
+ Supreme Will
+ Commit // Memory
+ Settle the Wreckage
+ Search for Azcanta
+ Stroke of Genius
+ Spell Swindle
+ Wargate
+ Lignify
+ Maze of Ith
+ Kor Haven
+ Forest
+ Island
EDIT: Ha, I had already cut Holistic Wisdom. I guess I'll cut AEtherize as it seems redundant with all the other fog/protection spells I'm running.
Oh, also, when do you try to run Phelddy out? Sorry if you've gone over this elsewhere but I've had trouble timing it properly. T6 or T7 seems like a good choice to be able to hold up mana for emergency removal, protection, or whatever else, but that's typically when you start seeing wraths deployed.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Supreme will does seem like a good inclusion, I should try it. good point on peer, impulse is def superior. My biggest complaint about the 1 cmc cards is that often you want to leave up UU for a counter or something on enemy turns and sometimes only have 2 blue available, especially with budgety manabases. With a good non-budget manabase I could see that being less of a problem, but I'd hate to have to decide between putting down my counter shields and making use of my cards. Of course that problem isn't present for instants like brainstorm and impulse so I'm more amenable to those ones.
When to play phelddy depends a lot on the table. If I see someone playing a deck that looks like it may be trying to pull off some BS early - a nasty commander like zur, jace, or narset in the command zone, expensive manabases (irony that my manabase is also expensive notwithstanding), tutors and potential combo pieces, etc., I'm likely to keep the shields up as much as possible and not play phelddagrif until either I'm convinced there isn't a threat, the threat is resolved, or I have a ton of mana and there's no reason not to. On the other hand, if I see lower powered decks and don't smell anything dangerous, I'll run him on turn 4 if I have nothing better to do, or 5 if I think a board wipe might be incoming based on the rest of the board. In lower powered metas he's a pretty decent blocker as a 4/4, a flyer, and with the potential to return to hand while benefitting someone besides the attacker - all those add up to pretty decent deterrence.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Not much catches my eye for Phelddagrif but it is at least good to keep an eye out for what other decks will be using.
For Hippo:
Dub: Makes it a Phelddagrif Knight. Then it becomes Sir Phelddagrif.
Jousting Lance: So Sir Phelddagrif can win the tournament and the heart of the princess.
Helm of the Host: Defeat your foes with an army of Phelddagrifs.
More serious things to look at:
Urza's Ruinous Blast: More of a meta call since it doesn't hit legendaries, but mass exile is worth a look.
Blink of an Eye: Into the Roil #2, or #1 if you like this art better.
Deep Freeze: Lignify variant, good for keeping down a commander instead of letting it get recasted.
The Mirari Conjecture: More expensive, but a double recursion and can double up on a removal spell (live the dream with a double Return to Dust).
Precognition Field: Future Sight gives more power on what you can play off the top, but I like looking at hidden information, which helps with bluffs.
Unwind: A free Negate, like how Rewind is a free Counterspell.
Tatyova, Benthic Druid: More card draw for doing what we want to do: Sitting around and playing lands.
Memorial to Genius: Card draw on a land. Better with a Life from the Loam package version of hippo.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Mirari conjecture I'm also not big on - double casting is fun but it's only one turn and it's very telegraphed. Telegraphing a board wipe from your grave is also a recipe for getting smacked. So I think politically it's not a great card.
Precognition field is a lot more interesting. I think this is a pretty reasonable card for CA purposes that doesn't have a high threat profile. Being a nonland permanent makes it less viable for builds with a lot of full clears though.
Unwind is quite solid although very replaceable. It's sort of bad in counter wars, in exactly the way pact of negation isn't, so it's sort of a meta call.
urza's ruinous blast is interesting, but like a lot of asymmetrical wipes I think they're a little subpar because ultimately we don't care about our commander because he just returns to hand, so missing enemy targets in exchange for sparing phelddy's life is mostly just a downside. And the deck doesn't play a lot of other legendary permanents either. So I think it's probably a no.
Mox amber I think is at least ok. It essentially provides you a guaranteed U to activate phelddy's return to hand option, although idk if that's worth a card.
Memorial is another respectable utility land. Idk that it actually makes the cut, but I think etbt is better than tapping for colorless (a la blighted cataract), so it's reasonable if not amazing.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
As far as your general question - the structure of this deck is really simple - you've got phelddagrif, you've got lands, and you've got some mixture of board wipes, counterspells, and targeted removal. Within those categories you can pretty much pick whatever is in your price range, as long as it's decent. So this is definitely a deck that's very budget-flexible, the only card that's absolutely mandatory is phelddagrif itself.
(You can also throw in some value generators like arch of orazca, but those are optional, and you should try to pick the one(s) you think are best suited to the political environment - i.e. if the meta is high powered, you might want a high-powered value engine like life from the loam + cycling lands. If your meta is low-powered, arch is probably better. The goal is to avoid being the threat while not falling too far behind in card advantage. The more powerful your meta, the more CA you'll need to keep up, and the less likely a powerful draw engine is to make you the threat)
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
1. What does Dizzy Spell typically tutor for?
2. Should some ramp be added to the deck other than Exploration and Burgeoning (e.g Kodama's Reach, Explosive Vegetation)
3. Are some flash creature cards to stop degenerate plays helpful (Containment Priest (which combos very well with Mystifying Maze, Alms Collector)?
4. Are Leyline of Anticipation and Vedalken Orrery helpful to play wrath effects at instant speed?
5. Given the political nature of the deck, would cards like Icy Prison, Oblivion Ring, etc. be helpful, as most opponents would be just as eager to protect those as you are?
6. Would Natural Balance be helpful to bring the green hyper ramp decks back down to earth?
7. Any reason that Mystic Remora is not in the list?
Thanks