Of those, I'd be drawn to Sudden Spoiling and Praetor's Grasp. You have a lot of wipes and just added another spot removal, so you could possibly wait to see if you need more. Spoiling plays well with Massacre Wurm and can also stop some combos. And I really like Grasp because you can even go take somebody else's Coffers or Urborg.
Those were the two I was leaning most towards, actually. They both seem very versatile as well as being anti-combo tech. Like most non-blue decks I can struggle against combo, so having another preemptive strike effect and a nigh uncounterable disruption effect seems good.
While I haven't had the opportunity to play much Magic in quite some time, I do spend a lot of time theorycrafting and contemplating deck choices, particularly on my commute. So, let's start at the top with an analysis of recent additions then move into cards I'm thinking of adding and the cuts to make room for them.
Praetor's Grasp has been decent. Not exceptional, but decent. I've only used it once to preempt a combo deck from going off, but most of the time it finds something like Cabal Coffers, Necropotence, or Sol Ring. I'm not 100% sold on it, but a pseudo-tutor that can also hose combo decks is worth more testing.
Sudden Spoiling surprised me. Casting it on LabMan to cause the combo player to lose felt great. A lot of the time it's just an overcosted Darkness, but my deck can easily handle the negative card advantage via my general.
Silence the Believers hasn't been used much, so I'm leaving it in until I get the proper chance to test it. I've been toying with the idea of going back to Dismember due to its low cost but not being able to hit Eldrazi or other significant fatties is a real drawback.
The deck's primary weaknesses are speedy combo decks and creature-light control decks. To that end, I've considered adding in more hate for those strategies.
Torpor Orb comes to mind immediately. While my deck is very effective at killing creatures, it's less effective at preventing them from coming into play in the first place. Enter the Battlefield Dragon Highlander is a thing, and Orb stops that thing cold. Windmill slamming it against creature-based combo or UGvalue.dec seems good. The only card it effects in my deck is Gary so it seems like a solid option to experiment with. Suck it, Palinchron/Deadeye Navigator.
Similar to the above, Pithing Needle has come up on my radar again. There will always be activated ability generals, powerful artifacts, and planeswalkers around, so I don't see it being a dead card very often. It's also unlikely to attract attention from players it hasn't been honed in on, which is relevant in a deck as mean as this one. Eat it, Palinchron/Deadeye Navigator.
Mind Sludge is never far from my mind as a card I'd like to slip back into the deck. Even on turn 5 with 4 Swamps out it's a crippling effect. Blue-based decks are very powerful and putting them in topdeck mode can be the difference between winning and losing.
Finally, the big reveal: I'm playing Death Cloud. The first list I made included it, but after some conscientious consideration I decided it's too mean to blow up the world. Well, after some more thinking and playing with Torment of Hailfire, I realized Death Cloud isn't a land destruction spell, it's a "y'all should just scoop now" spell. No hands, no lands, and no creatures means most decks just aren't coming back. Indeed, when combined with my artifacts and enchantments as well as floating mana to pump into Erebos to break parity even more it's just brutal. It fits both X-spell Tribal and Death Tribal, so I'm moving forward with it. Damn the salt. If only I could afford Nether Void.
As for cuts, well, some have been a long time coming. The deck is pretty well tuned at this point, but I have considered some of the under performers.
Night of Souls' Betrayal has to go. Edgar Markov decks have fallen out of popularity around here, and I have very little trouble with go-wide strategies. It's a solid choice for some lists, and I love the flavor, but it doesn't pull its weight properly here, even with the devotion.
Words of Waste is getting the axe again. Yes, locking out someone at their draw step when the game goes to 1v1 is very powerful, but enabling graveyard decks and hurting potential allies makes it a bit unwieldy.
Animate Dead/Necromancy have been on my watch list for awhile now, and I think the time has come to retire them. As I've said before they're generic goodstuff cards that don't progress the deck's gameplan. Despite being flavorful and on theme they're functionally very boring. Good cards, but boring.
Leechridden Swamp has been activated less than a handful of times and made zero impact on the game. On the other hand, it entering tapped has set me back enough times to warrant its removal. So long janky tech, hello basic land.
I've gotten some good mileage out of Praetor's Grasp. Combo isn't an issue in my meta but 3 mana to exile a Doubling Season or Darksteel Forge or something feels fair to me. And I've never been unhappy to draw Death Cloud. My Erebos deck has sort of retired but one card from Ixalan I wanted to test was Dire Fleet Ravager. A pox on all thy houses!
Okay gang, I've decided to put a little more effort into the original post. It's not finished yet, but I would eventually like to apply for the thread to have primer status. Obviously it isn't completed, but I'm getting there. Does anyone have any feedback on how it's arranged or the general aesthetic of it so far?
Anyway, I was finally able to get some more games in over the past week and I've made a few more changes to the list.
As it turns out the list I posted here was only 98 cards for awhile. Oops!
The physical deck was playing an extra Swamp so I cut that one and one that was supposed to be there. I still have 36 mana producing lands which is fine since I'm running seven or eight sources of cheap ramp depending on how you define Dark Ritual. Honestly, I would like to keep one of them, but there are just so many cards I want to run that I don't mind cutting a boring land for something spicy. Something like cards I had already cut.
I was wrong about Animate Dead and Necromancy. Yes, they're generic goodstuff cards for the deck since I'm not playing reanimator, but what excellent generic goodstuff cards they are. There weren't any times where I truly missed them, but there were moments when they would've been helpful. Sometimes the deck just needs a blocker and any generic fatty will do, and sometimes there's the opportunity to grab a Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger to run away with the game. Plus, as enchantments, they work towards devotion and turning Erebos on which gives us a great blocker even if he is more vulnerable to removal.
Speaking of enabling devotion, Polluted Bonds is back. It's not great, but it's on theme and the late game life gain can be relevant. I mean, Boundless Realms is a thing, as is Splendid Reclamation. Look, I said it wasn't great, what more do you want from me?
As for Volrath's Stronghold, honestly I forgot it was a card until someone used it against me the other day. While I don't run many creatures in the deck, the ones I do run are potent enough to want to recur.
Pithing Needle was a disappointment. It's an okay silver bullet against some commanders but often it doesn't have a great target, and besides, most kill spells would do something similar. It's also kind of boring.
Blighted Fen seems okay in theory since I run Crucible of Worlds, but six mana for a Diabolic Edict is pretty mediocre, even if its recurrable. I've used it a handful of times but most often it sits in play as a crappy colorless mana generating land. It's not Volrath's Stronghold by a mile (or five).
EDIT: Didn't want to double post but after some consideration I'm going to try rogerandover's suggestion of Venser's Journal from six months ago. It's a five mana card that doesn't really do anything, but I'm willing to put aside my skepticism. The deck can burn through its life total pretty quickly and having a way to gain large chunks of life at a time to buy you more time for your attrition cards to do work could be useful. Also, the no maximum hand size part is somewhat relevant when your general draws cards.
What to cut, though?
Praetor's Grasp has continued to be primarily a mediocre tutor. Hardcore cEDH combo decks are pretty rare at my stomping grounds, so like I said earlier I don't get much use from it as a combo hoser. Sadistic Sacrament is a better Jester's Cap effect since it removes more cards and can be kicked in the late game to neuter an opponent. Grasp has slightly more utility, but I dislike relying on my opponents for usable cards.
Ob Nixilis Reignited is a card I go back and forth on frequently. All of his abilities are good, and due to all of the wipes and removal I play it's not uncommon for me to get his ultimate online. That said, there are times where he's a five mana sorcery speed Muder. Still, he's rather versatile and exemplifies the core themes of the deck, so it's kind of a pet card.
I'm leaning towards cutting Praetor's Grasp. It doesn't bring me joy when I draw it which is probably the best reason to cut a card.
Overall, I'm happy with the set. I've been playing more D&D than Magic recently, but a certain card rekindled my interest in the game. Dominaria is very flavorful and chock full of cards that will affect EDH, even if there's only a couple that are worth testing in this deck. I look forward to killing all of these new commanders. Anyway, let's get to the card analysis, shall we?
Cabal Stronghold: Yup, this is a card alright. Comparisons to Cabal Coffers are obvious, and while Coffers is miles better because of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth synergy and a lower activation cost, Stronghold still looks very much worth playing in mono-black. The sole advantage this card has over Coffers is that it taps for colorless mana on its own. While Coffers is explosive and absurd in the mid to late game, it sucks to have early on. I don't think it's too early to suggest that Stronghold is going to be a mono-black staple.
Phyrexian Scriptures: I'm not sure it will make the final cut, but I really like this card. It's slow, it's clunky, and it's vulnerable to removal, but there are times where you need to wipe the board while having something strong like Crypt Ghast in play. Being able to wipe out opposing creatures while still having your mana doubler is a strong play. Don't neglect the fact that it can be used politically by turning an opposing creature into an artifact as opposed to your own. As an added bonus, it doubles as mass graveyard removal which gives me three sources of graveyard hate. On top of all that, it contributes to the enchantment subtheme of the deck. I think it's worth testing, though I remain skeptical.
Demonlord Belzenlok: I like this card, but a) it's a creature in a deck that blows up creatures all the time b) this deck's curve is rather low and c) it's kind of a bad Ad Nauseam. He would be interesting as a commander, but I don't think he's worth a slot here.
Lich's Mastery: Very cool card. While our deck has quite a few ways to gain life, it has even more ways to lose life. It's also six mana for an enchantment that doesn't necessarily do anything the turn it's played and has the potential to blow yourself out. It's a build around card, and this deck isn't doing that.
Cast Down: Not hitting legendaries is a tremendous drawback in the format. Compares unfavorably with Go for the Throat and even Hero's Downfall. At least it has cool flavor text.
It's... okay. It always feels nice to get back Crypt Ghast, but with only six creatures in the deck there are many times that it's just a Wastes. I feel like it's the weakest nonbasic in the deck and I think it's a mistake to cut a basic Swamp given the land that's replacing it.
Originally added as Cabal Coffers protection, I've used it for that function only a handful of times. There's also the Strip Mine lock, but that strategy is underwhelming in multiplayer. I'm not running fetches, which greatly increase the power of Crucible, especially so in decks that starve for mana. Most of the time I draw it it's a dead card, and I only tutor for it when Coffers is down and I've already cast Yawgmoth's Will. It's a safe cut.
You'll notice a trend. I took out most of the group slug effects. I had taken a brief break from EDH to play Arena and D&D, but when I returned I found myself getting dogpiled due to how annoying my group remembered them being. That's fine. I was starting to tire of them anyway and wanted a change. Ankh was too symmetrical and often contributed to my death, Ascension was increasingly difficult to turn on, and Bonds was just too slow to make much of a meaningful difference.
As for Painful Quandary, after thinking about it, I found it either useless or winmore. Popping it out early means opponents just take the life loss and either remove it or pummel me, and popping it late when I'm ahead doesn't really help me to stay on top. Similarly, the only time I saw Phyrexian Scriptures it resolved and was immediately destroyed before it could go off. It was as awkward as I thought it would be. Ob Nixilis Reignited isn't a bad card, but it's not particularly great, and I wanted to make room for some new additions. There's a good possibility he'll be back.
The most controversial drop is Phyrexian Arena. Long considered a staple for decks running black, there are just too many times where I'll topdeck it and wish it was anything else from immediate card draw to removal. It created too many feelbad moments and I think it compares poorly to something as simple as Read the Bones. Sometimes you've got to dig deep and Arena doesn't let you do that. Sure, it's great on turn three, but that doesn't happen very often.
The manarocks are here because I'm trying to maximize the chances of landing Erebos on turn 3. While topdecking them in the late game isn't ideal, it's not the worst thing in the world either since the deck is very, very mana hungry, even with a low curve. They're not flashy, but they get the job done. Drain Life and Read the Bones likewise are back for redundancy purposes. I have nothing interesting to say about them.
Decree of Pain is a monster of a card. Ripping it off the top when you're facing lethal the next turn is such a massive change in the game state. It's no Cyclonic Rift into Amnesia, but drawing 5+ cards and wiping the board is incredible. Don't forget that it has cycling. Don't get greedy and hold onto it hoping to draw into enough mana to hardcast it. I know I sound like a broken record about versatility, but it really does make a difference.
Tainted Aether is back. It's just too good not to run. Unlike Spreading Plague which can backfire and kill your important mana doubler creatures, Tainted Aether's drawback is minimal since saccing a land only to double the rest of your remaining Swamps is a net gain. Keeping your opponents from developing their boards is very, very strong. Expect it to eat enchantment removal as early as someone draws it. That it's such a target is telling about the power level of the card.
Finally, Shrouded Lore. I'm not convinced it belongs here, but I think it's worth testing. I've had it lead to some early game blowouts by recurring Demonic Tutor to find two of my mostpowerful cards, but I haven't seen it at all in the mid to late game where I suspect it suffers most. However, the fact that I can politic with it to return vital spells that are useful against the person obviously in the lead makes me think it might be worthwhile.
It's been almost a year since I posted in this thread, but I've been steadily making improvements to both the list and the original post. I'm slowly working towards getting it in shape to be a primer but it's taking awhile due to me being busy in other aspects of life and I'm trying to muster the resolve to finish it.
Does anyone have any feedback on the would-be primer thus far? Or does anyone have any deck suggestions? It's pretty rude and tuned already but I'm always looking for new spice.
Oh, nice! I'll take a good look in the next evening or two. I also hit lulls in activity on my gaming stuff due to RL obligations — and then when I do end up with time, sometimes I just want to play instead of write.
Nice use of artwork. I can see you've still got some sections that you intend to fill with some text, but the parts you have so far look good on the first read-through.
Have you already been in touch with any of the primer committee folks for guidance?
Nice use of artwork. I can see you've still got some sections that you intend to fill with some text, but the parts you have so far look good on the first read-through.
Thanks! I wanted to give the reader a feel for the deck visually.
Have you already been in touch with any of the primer committee folks for guidance?
Not yet. I didn't think it would be worthwhile until I had most/all of it up but maybe a cursory glance to make sure I'm on the right page would be useful.
It's been almost a year since I posted in this thread, but I've been steadily making improvements to both the list and the original post. I'm slowly working towards getting it in shape to be a primer but it's taking awhile due to me being busy in other aspects of life and I'm trying to muster the resolve to finish it.
Does anyone have any feedback on the would-be primer thus far? Or does anyone have any deck suggestions? It's pretty rude and tuned already but I'm always looking for new spice.
Primer looks good to me, well thought out and organized.
I've been working on an Erebos deck since Theros went live. Here's my current iteration: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/erebos-god-of-the-dead-25-09-13-1/
I take a bit of a different course than you but the overall game plan is pretty similar - control the board and kill all the things. Maybe some of these cards I'm on could be good suggestions for other folks.
On card choices - how has Font of Agonies performed? I considered it myself but didn't think it would be good enough. My thoughts were that getting to four counters would take too long time for it to matter much.
And is Underworld Dreams really worth it? Seems really grindy, when you don't have much access to wheels. Also surprised to see Venser's Journal back - you found you need the lifegain?
If you are in need for landrecursion there's also Petrified Field. It taps for mana, so not totally a dead land if you doesn't it anyway.
Primer looks good to me, well thought out and organized.
Thanks!
I've been working on an Erebos deck since Theros went live. Here's my current iteration: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/erebos-god-of-the-dead-25-09-13-1/
I take a bit of a different course than you but the overall game plan is pretty similar - control the board and kill all the things. Maybe some of these cards I'm on could be good suggestions for other folks.
Oh boy, The Abyss. Obviously, I'm jealous. And yeah, many MBC lists tend towards a particular style of play, even if the card choices to get there are a little different. How has Choice of Damnations been?
On card choices - how has Font of Agonies performed? I considered it myself but didn't think it would be good enough. My thoughts were that getting to four counters would take too long time for it to matter much.
And is Underworld Dreams really worth it? Seems really grindy, when you don't have much access to wheels. Also surprised to see Venser's Journal back - you found you need the lifegain?
If you are in need for landrecursion there's also Petrified Field. It taps for mana, so not totally a dead land if you doesn't it anyway.
I haven't used Font of Agonies yet, honestly. I do play a lot of 'do nothing' enchantments so I can understand the criticism, but if that card is going to be good anywhere it's here. Turning on after only a couple of Erebos activations seems good, but it really needs to take out two or three dudes before it really becomes worthwhile.
Underworld Dreams is kind of a pet favorite, but the damage per mana investment is impressive when dropped in the early and mid game or when playing against card draw heavy decks. It's also a cheap devotion enabler for when Erebos needs to become a blocker. However, it is pretty grindy and weak in the late game. You're probably right.
I'm still not sold on it but Venser's Journal is back as a sort of silver bullet sustain card against decks that can effectively pressure my life total while still being a reasonably decent card outside of that situation. 4+ life a turn is pretty good against some decks and the unlimited hand size is good gravy. Ivory Tower might be better.
I had actually recently reconsidered Petrified Field due to the spoiler of Blast Zone. That card is an auto-include to me, so being able to recur it or a dead Coffers or something seems useful, but space is tight. 1/4 of the deck being basics seems like a good ratio since many of the deck's ramp relies on Swamps and Urborg isn't always available and I'm already having to cut the last extra Swamp for Blast Zone. Is Field better than Reliquary Tower? Tower is more consistently useful but Field is more clutch.
I'm also considering finding room for Glacial Chasm. Many decks just don't have an answer for Chasm and lose to it and tapping for mana with Urborg seems great. It definitely isn't going into a land slot so I guess it could go in for Underworld Dreams.
If you're looking for cuts, I would suggestion something like Pestilence though I imagine it's some kind of pet card for you
Mutilate is a wrath that will take out Erebos too when your devotion is high enough ofc, but it looks like that happen pretty regularly.
There's also Doomfall that is quite versatile, but I imagine the first option is only good when your opponent have a singular creature on the board. And then it's just an overcosted Thoughtseize.
As for missing items, how do feel about Bolas's Citadel? It's kinda like Erebos on steroids. I'm definitely going to run it in my Erebos deck!
If you're looking for cuts, I would suggestion something like Pestilence though I imagine it's some kind of pet card for you
Mutilate is a wrath that will take out Erebos too when your devotion is high enough ofc, but it looks like that happen pretty regularly.
There's also Doomfall that is quite versatile, but I imagine the first option is only good when your opponent have a singular creature on the board. And then it's just an overcosted Thoughtseize.
As for missing items, how do feel about Bolas's Citadel? It's kinda like Erebos on steroids. I'm definitely going to run it in my Erebos deck!
Pestilence is nuts. It's removal and a win condition rolled into one and can be silly with an indestructible commander. I've had excellent results with it and I'm a little surprised you're not hot on it.
True, Mutilate can take out Erebos, but one of the trickier aspects of the deck is managing your devotion to match what's going on with the board. It can be an inconvenient topdeck when you've already enabled Erebos, but if you're sandbagging it in your hand until the opportune moment to wipe then enable Erebos, at 4cmc it's tough to beat. I'd agree that it's likely the weakest wrath in the deck, but is better than, say, Deadly Tempest or Crux of Fate. Maybe I could lose a wrath effect, though. I've added more permanents like Spreading Plague without reconsidering other removal.
Doomfall is my spicy tech. I would sometimes struggle with closing games in pods with blue-based control decks that could counter my big dumb X spells, so I added some targeted discard to shore up that weakness. While the least efficient mode is a 3cmc Thoughtseize, in my experience, by the time you're ready to go for the win you have excess mana so the mana cost is rarely relevant, and if it is, you would've lost that game regardless. Targeted discard has the potential to be weak in certain match ups, so the versatility that Doomfall brings makes its awkward casting cost acceptable. An exiling edict can be very relevant against, say, Blightsteel Colossus or Wurmcoil Engine.
I'm lukewarm on Bolas's Citadel for my deck. It's obviously a strong card, and is very cool, but I think it's more build-around than something like Ad Nauseam, which can be played "fairly." A storm deck that is going to blitz through its deck with cantrips and tutors and play several spells per turn will love it, but using it as a value card seems underwhelming. I'm still going to give it a shot, as I like it a lot.
Pestilence is nuts. It's removal and a win condition rolled into one and can be silly with an indestructible commander. I've had excellent results with it and I'm a little surprised you're not hot on it.
It might be something about that I don't play creatures and I try nok making Erebos one, so he's harder to get rid off But thinking about it I should maybe give it a shot myself. It only takes two more devotion for Erebos to come online and keep the Pestilence running. And I do run short on wincons... yeah I'm giving it a try!
True, Mutilate can take out Erebos, but one of the trickier aspects of the deck is managing your devotion to match what's going on with the board. It can be an inconvenient topdeck when you've already enabled Erebos, but if you're sandbagging it in your hand until the opportune moment to wipe then enable Erebos, at 4cmc it's tough to beat. I'd agree that it's likely the weakest wrath in the deck, but is better than, say, Deadly Tempest or Crux of Fate. Maybe I could lose a wrath effect, though. I've added more permanents like Spreading Plague without reconsidering other removal.
It is a strong wrath for sure, and sometimes it's better to lower p/t because some things have indestructible. So I also understand your assesment about Doomfall. It looks good, just havn't testet it myself so it's nice to hear it performs well. Maybe I should also try that one.
I'm somewhat unhappy with my targeted removal suite. Malicious Affliction is coming in over Sudden Death and Font of Agonies is under scrutiny to see if I should replace it with something easier to use. Sudden Deathing Laboratory Maniac feels really, really good but it's a bit too narrow to play. Affliction is basically Doom Blade+. I dislike the color restriction since a lot of nasty targets are black, but two mana is where I like my removal to be.
Underworld Dreams is coming out again (RIP). I'm really attached to it, and it puts out a respectable amount of damage for its cost, but not affecting the board state and not applying too much pressure to life totals weakens it. Glacial Chasm, as discussed, is coming in to replace it, as is a Swamp coming out for Blast Zone. Finally, I'm cutting Wayfarer's Bauble for Phyrexian Totem. Bauble is an excellent turn one play, but on every other turn it's awkward. +1 Swamp count is nice and it enables a turn 3 Erebos, but Totem turns into a reasonable threat after a board wipe. Lowering life totals to make your X spells lethal is a solid use of your mana. Totem is also a much, much better late game topdeck.
Oh boy, The Abyss. Obviously, I'm jealous. And yeah, many MBC lists tend towards a particular style of play, even if the card choices to get there are a little different. How has Choice of Damnations been?
Choice of Damnations is something I threw in recently as a fun-of. I haven't actually cast it yet, but it seems fun.
I'm looking to move to more Pestilence effects to my list as well, now that I'm planning on using Wound Reflection and Sower of Discord type effects it seems doubly brutal.
Underworld Dreams is kind of a pet favorite, but the damage per mana investment is impressive when dropped in the early and mid game or when playing against card draw heavy decks. It's also a cheap devotion enabler for when Erebos needs to become a blocker.
Do you find yourself actually wanting to make him a creature? I tend to just have him sitting as an indestructible lifegain blocker and card draw enabler more than in combat. Its so nice with Theors gods to play them and have to never have to cast them again in 9/10 games. Opening him up to an exile creature effect is just something I don't do very often.
That said, I can get behind Underworld Dreams. Still have nightmares about how brutal this was in the old days.
Do you find yourself actually wanting to make him a creature? I tend to just have him sitting as an indestructible lifegain blocker and card draw enabler more than in combat. Its so nice with Theors gods to play them and have to never have to cast them again in 9/10 games. Opening him up to an exile creature effect is just something I don't do very often.
It depends! I most frequently try to keep my devotion low in the early and mid game to avoid having him removed easily, as you point out. However, when I've got a couple of disruptivepermanents and a full grip I don't mind risking removal since I've already got lots of things to do without Erebos. I've also found that that's around the time I want to have an imposing blocker to deter attacks because that's around the time I become the table big bad.
Of course, there's nuance. If there's no white at the table I tend to be very aggressive with turning him into a creature since that's the best color by far for exiling/neutering creatures. If there's no permission, I tend to be aggressive as well since I can always easily recast him if removed with the oodles of mana I can generate should I need to. Conversely, against UWx control decks I try to walk a thin line between maintaining permanent-based disruption while keeping Erebos in play to try to bury them in card advantage. It's a tough matchup if you get into a 1v1 situation with them, but luckily there's always good ol' fashioned politicking. It's not that difficult to frame the blue player as the bad guy, even if you're the Prince of ******* Darkness.
, but luckily there's always good ol' fashioned politicking. It's not that difficult to frame the blue player as the bad guy, even if you're the Prince of ******* Darkness.
Glad I'm not the only one who enjoys the politicking of MBC "this isn't the threat you care about - go pick on someone else while i'm silently plotting all of your deaths".
Glad I'm not the only one who enjoys the politicking of MBC "this isn't the threat you care about - go pick on someone else while i'm silently plotting all of your deaths".
It's really fitting for the deck. I also like to make deals and barter removal ("I'll take out that Serra Ascendant beating you down but you've gotta take out that Song of the Dryads on my commander") to advance the game plan of attrition. Deals with the devil rarely work out in your opponents' favor and yet they continue to make them.
What's the opinion on Mana Web? I slotted it in before to do some preliminary testing online but then lost all my prototype lists due to mechanical failure and it must've fallen through the cracks. From what little experience I had with it, it performed okay? It's not quite stax and affects "fair" decks that were just going to cast a single big dumb spell on their turn anyway less than it does reactive control decks. Largely preventing them from advancing their board and interacting with you is an excellent bind to place them in. Whatever they choose, the game is prolonged, and your inevitability grows. At least, that's the theory, anyway. At this point my deck is pretty mean so I might as well go all in.
Phyrexian Totem has already sealed a game for me by taking out a Jace, the Mind Sculptor after a board wipe cleared out the creatures protecting him so I'm glad it's back in the list. Sometimes pet cards are also useful.
With some testing and thinking, I believe Font of Agonies is a bit too slow. Typically, it removes one or two relevant creatures at 7 or 9 mana respectively, which is pretty inefficient, even if it's spent over a few turns. It rewards you for doing what you want to do with this deck, but unfortunately takes too long to come online to be effective. I also had the miserable experience of topdecking it when virtually any other removal spell would've saved me. Oh well. It's a cool card, though.
Necromancy or Dance of the Dead are going as well. Three reanimation cards in a deck with few targets, even if they'rereallygood, is probably too much. Two is less than three, and the name is better, but I'm not sure if Dance is the better choice since Necromancy can also be used in an emergency to find a blocker or steal a dead ETB critter at instant speed.
Any thoughts on what to use for the open slot? I have three target spot removal spells and two edicts which is probably enough already, so I want to branch out a bit. I'm somewhat hesitant to try Bolas's Citadel. Even though I really like the card I just don't see it being too good here, and I feel pretty confident in my tutor/draw package. Honestly, I might add in another life total attrition/win condition card. I feel pretty light on them at the moment as there are the occasional games where I durdle around and take longer to kill my opponents than is necessary. Drain Life? Profane Command? Polluted Bonds? Army of the Damned? There are a lot of options, ranging from excellent to cute to terrible.
I'm not typically one to care about bling (I have aesthetic preferences for cards based on art, that's about it) but I recently obtained the following from my FLGS that combines one of my favorite cards with my favorite counting tool:
My only complaint is that it doesn't have enough beads to accommodate my life total in rare situations, but I still like it quite a lot.
Not sure what your current list is as the choices you're talking about didn't seem to line up with the primer. Regardless, my $0.02:
What's the opinion on Mana Web?
Even with the errata so that it hits all opponents, I think if I wanted this kind of effect I would just up my mana rock count and play Winter Orb, as the webMana Web still allows them to cast something for any amount of mana once per untap. Winter / Static Orbs and the like are far more brutal. Alternatively, you could look to using Infernal Darkness and Hex Parasite "combo" like I do to effectively shut the table off from anything but for the rest of the game. I've also tried Contamination but my build doesn't run enough token generators or similar to keep the effect going more than a turn or three.
Necromancy or Dance of the Dead are going as well.
I ran these initially as well due to our playgroup being wrath after wrath after wrath, but came upon a similar conclusion. Nowadays I run a single Reanimate for targeted, single-purpose reanimation as its too efficient not to. I do run the following spells which can act as reanimation effects but aren't necessarily single target or single purpose, however. Maybe some of these could be considerations for you.
Not sure what your current list is as the choices you're talking about didn't seem to line up with the primer. Regardless, my $0.02:
The lists in the OP (sorted by type and function) are up to date, I've just slacked off on adding analysis for them in the primer itself.
Even with the errata so that it hits all opponents, I think if I wanted this kind of effect I would just up my mana rock count and play Winter Orb, as the webMana Web still allows them to cast something for any amount of mana once per untap. Winter / Static Orbs and the like are far more brutal.
Actually, Winter Orb is one of my biggest fears when playing this deck. I don't see it often, but someone dropping it on me when I'm tapped out and don't have Coffers available is pretty much game over for me. It's difficult to break the parity with it like, say, Teferi or decks playing a ton of rocks can. The advantage with Web is that it's always on, no investment needed, but it's less of a lock card against fair decks than it is a way to combat blue-based control decks. Web, in theory, greatly reduces the ability for reactive control decks to interact with the table which, in theory, allows us to develop our resources and find a win condition somewhat unhindered. Being weak against decks playing cards at sorcery speed is less relevant since our deck is very, very good at beating those decks.
Necromancy or Dance of the Dead are going as well.
I ran these initially as well due to our playgroup being wrath after wrath after wrath, but came upon a similar conclusion. Nowadays I run a single Reanimate for targeted, single-purpose reanimation as its too efficient not to. I do run the following spells which can act as reanimation effects but aren't necessarily single target or single purpose, however.
Maybe some of these could be considerations for you.
Reanimating Crypt Ghast or Nirkana Revenant for two mana just feels so, so good, though. I've won games because of surprising my opponents with the explosive mana production the cheap reanimation spells can generate. There's also the obvious value plays of nabbing a Mulldrifter, Eternal Witness, Reclamation Sage, etc. They're worth running in my opinion, I just think three effects is too many here.
I've tried many of the cards on your list (Yawgmoth's Will is absurd!) but since I only run five creatures many of the value reanimator engines/cards aren't very efficient here. The undercosted one shot effects ultimately do more work here. I got my reanimation fix out when I played Chainer, Dementia Master.
Modern Horizons is here and with it comes a very important question: is it time to play Snow-Covered Swamps?
Withering Wisps has always tempted me into running them, but now with Dead of Winter seeing print the argument is becoming more compelling. Dead of Winter isn't the best wipe, but at three mana it's incredibly efficient. Mutilate is functionally similar, and while it scales much better due to the presence of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, it still often only hits for the number of Swamps I have. That single point of mana makes a lot of difference against, say, Gaddock Teeg or token decks. As for Wisps, it's a similar story. A cheaper, conditional Pestilence. I think it's time to make the switch. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of any of the artwork for them. I guess at least the Ice Age version looks like an actual Swamp, if poorly executed. The struggle is real.
Also from Horizons is Defile. I love cheap removal and it's very difficult to get cheaper than this. It scales reasonably well and gets around indestructible/regeneration. When's the last time you saw someone regenerate a creature?
While we're talking about additions, what do we think about Dark Depths? Most of us already run Thespian's Stage so adding the other half of the combo seems plausible as an alternative win condition. The token is black, after all.
Finally, while I haven't been able to play much recently, I did manage to get in a game and threw Polluted Bonds back in to fill the open slot and man, did it perform. I went second and landed it on turn 4, so it generated quite a bit of life for me and lowered life totals enough to squeeze out a barely lethal Torment of Hailfire before facing lethal attacks after my turn. I liked it a lot.
As for cuts, well, I think it's time for Praetor's Grasp, Smallpox, Malicious Affliction, and Reliquary Tower to go. Grasp was always hit or miss and I haven't used it to preempt a combo in a long time. Smallpox feels too mean and the indiscriminate nature of it doesn't help with politics. Affliction is being traded out for other removal. And Tower, while useful with a general that draws cards, is generally superfluous. I think I'm running too many mana producing lands and Tower seems to be the weakest one.
Is Dead of Winter better than Toxic Deluge? For me, no; I run way too many non-swamp lands and Deluge is pretty much guaranteed to kill whatever I need to kill at any point of the game.
Yeah, I felt the same when I first saw Dead of Winter, but it will never get better then Toxic Deluge. I'm passing on that one, but Snow-lands do have its merits for other cards, like the one mentioned, so I can understand the change. I useually only use snows with Extraplanar Lens, but more and more seems to be putting in snows, so it might not matter all that much anymore
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Praetor's Grasp has been decent. Not exceptional, but decent. I've only used it once to preempt a combo deck from going off, but most of the time it finds something like Cabal Coffers, Necropotence, or Sol Ring. I'm not 100% sold on it, but a pseudo-tutor that can also hose combo decks is worth more testing.
Sudden Spoiling surprised me. Casting it on LabMan to cause the combo player to lose felt great. A lot of the time it's just an overcosted Darkness, but my deck can easily handle the negative card advantage via my general.
Silence the Believers hasn't been used much, so I'm leaving it in until I get the proper chance to test it. I've been toying with the idea of going back to Dismember due to its low cost but not being able to hit Eldrazi or other significant fatties is a real drawback.
The deck's primary weaknesses are speedy combo decks and creature-light control decks. To that end, I've considered adding in more hate for those strategies.
Torpor Orb comes to mind immediately. While my deck is very effective at killing creatures, it's less effective at preventing them from coming into play in the first place. Enter the Battlefield Dragon Highlander is a thing, and Orb stops that thing cold. Windmill slamming it against creature-based combo or UGvalue.dec seems good. The only card it effects in my deck is Gary so it seems like a solid option to experiment with. Suck it, Palinchron/Deadeye Navigator.
Similar to the above, Pithing Needle has come up on my radar again. There will always be activated ability generals, powerful artifacts, and planeswalkers around, so I don't see it being a dead card very often. It's also unlikely to attract attention from players it hasn't been honed in on, which is relevant in a deck as mean as this one. Eat it, Palinchron/Deadeye Navigator.
Mind Sludge is never far from my mind as a card I'd like to slip back into the deck. Even on turn 5 with 4 Swamps out it's a crippling effect. Blue-based decks are very powerful and putting them in topdeck mode can be the difference between winning and losing.
Finally, the big reveal: I'm playing Death Cloud. The first list I made included it, but after some conscientious consideration I decided it's too mean to blow up the world. Well, after some more thinking and playing with Torment of Hailfire, I realized Death Cloud isn't a land destruction spell, it's a "y'all should just scoop now" spell. No hands, no lands, and no creatures means most decks just aren't coming back. Indeed, when combined with my artifacts and enchantments as well as floating mana to pump into Erebos to break parity even more it's just brutal. It fits both X-spell Tribal and Death Tribal, so I'm moving forward with it. Damn the salt. If only I could afford Nether Void.
As for cuts, well, some have been a long time coming. The deck is pretty well tuned at this point, but I have considered some of the under performers.
Night of Souls' Betrayal has to go. Edgar Markov decks have fallen out of popularity around here, and I have very little trouble with go-wide strategies. It's a solid choice for some lists, and I love the flavor, but it doesn't pull its weight properly here, even with the devotion.
Words of Waste is getting the axe again. Yes, locking out someone at their draw step when the game goes to 1v1 is very powerful, but enabling graveyard decks and hurting potential allies makes it a bit unwieldy.
Animate Dead/Necromancy have been on my watch list for awhile now, and I think the time has come to retire them. As I've said before they're generic goodstuff cards that don't progress the deck's gameplan. Despite being flavorful and on theme they're functionally very boring. Good cards, but boring.
Leechridden Swamp has been activated less than a handful of times and made zero impact on the game. On the other hand, it entering tapped has set me back enough times to warrant its removal. So long janky tech, hello basic land.
Tentative changes:
- Night of Souls' Betrayal
- Words of Waste
- Animate Dead
- Necromancy
- Leechridden Swamp
+ Torpor Orb
+ Pithing Needle
+ Mind Sludge
+ Death Cloud
+ Swamp
Any feedback or criticisms?
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Anyway, I was finally able to get some more games in over the past week and I've made a few more changes to the list.
- 2 Swamp
- Blighted Fen
- Pithing Needle
+ Animate Dead
+ Necromancy
+ Polluted Bonds
+ Volrath's Stronghold
As it turns out the list I posted here was only 98 cards for awhile. Oops!
The physical deck was playing an extra Swamp so I cut that one and one that was supposed to be there. I still have 36 mana producing lands which is fine since I'm running seven or eight sources of cheap ramp depending on how you define Dark Ritual. Honestly, I would like to keep one of them, but there are just so many cards I want to run that I don't mind cutting a boring land for something spicy. Something like cards I had already cut.
I was wrong about Animate Dead and Necromancy. Yes, they're generic goodstuff cards for the deck since I'm not playing reanimator, but what excellent generic goodstuff cards they are. There weren't any times where I truly missed them, but there were moments when they would've been helpful. Sometimes the deck just needs a blocker and any generic fatty will do, and sometimes there's the opportunity to grab a Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger to run away with the game. Plus, as enchantments, they work towards devotion and turning Erebos on which gives us a great blocker even if he is more vulnerable to removal.
Speaking of enabling devotion, Polluted Bonds is back. It's not great, but it's on theme and the late game life gain can be relevant. I mean, Boundless Realms is a thing, as is Splendid Reclamation. Look, I said it wasn't great, what more do you want from me?
As for Volrath's Stronghold, honestly I forgot it was a card until someone used it against me the other day. While I don't run many creatures in the deck, the ones I do run are potent enough to want to recur.
Pithing Needle was a disappointment. It's an okay silver bullet against some commanders but often it doesn't have a great target, and besides, most kill spells would do something similar. It's also kind of boring.
Blighted Fen seems okay in theory since I run Crucible of Worlds, but six mana for a Diabolic Edict is pretty mediocre, even if its recurrable. I've used it a handful of times but most often it sits in play as a crappy colorless mana generating land. It's not Volrath's Stronghold by a mile (or five).
EDIT: Didn't want to double post but after some consideration I'm going to try rogerandover's suggestion of Venser's Journal from six months ago. It's a five mana card that doesn't really do anything, but I'm willing to put aside my skepticism. The deck can burn through its life total pretty quickly and having a way to gain large chunks of life at a time to buy you more time for your attrition cards to do work could be useful. Also, the no maximum hand size part is somewhat relevant when your general draws cards.
What to cut, though?
Praetor's Grasp has continued to be primarily a mediocre tutor. Hardcore cEDH combo decks are pretty rare at my stomping grounds, so like I said earlier I don't get much use from it as a combo hoser. Sadistic Sacrament is a better Jester's Cap effect since it removes more cards and can be kicked in the late game to neuter an opponent. Grasp has slightly more utility, but I dislike relying on my opponents for usable cards.
Ob Nixilis Reignited is a card I go back and forth on frequently. All of his abilities are good, and due to all of the wipes and removal I play it's not uncommon for me to get his ultimate online. That said, there are times where he's a five mana sorcery speed Muder. Still, he's rather versatile and exemplifies the core themes of the deck, so it's kind of a pet card.
I'm leaning towards cutting Praetor's Grasp. It doesn't bring me joy when I draw it which is probably the best reason to cut a card.
- Praetor's Grasp
+ Venser's Journal
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Overall, I'm happy with the set. I've been playing more D&D than Magic recently, but a certain card rekindled my interest in the game. Dominaria is very flavorful and chock full of cards that will affect EDH, even if there's only a couple that are worth testing in this deck. I look forward to killing all of these new commanders. Anyway, let's get to the card analysis, shall we?
Cabal Stronghold: Yup, this is a card alright. Comparisons to Cabal Coffers are obvious, and while Coffers is miles better because of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth synergy and a lower activation cost, Stronghold still looks very much worth playing in mono-black. The sole advantage this card has over Coffers is that it taps for colorless mana on its own. While Coffers is explosive and absurd in the mid to late game, it sucks to have early on. I don't think it's too early to suggest that Stronghold is going to be a mono-black staple.
Phyrexian Scriptures: I'm not sure it will make the final cut, but I really like this card. It's slow, it's clunky, and it's vulnerable to removal, but there are times where you need to wipe the board while having something strong like Crypt Ghast in play. Being able to wipe out opposing creatures while still having your mana doubler is a strong play. Don't neglect the fact that it can be used politically by turning an opposing creature into an artifact as opposed to your own. As an added bonus, it doubles as mass graveyard removal which gives me three sources of graveyard hate. On top of all that, it contributes to the enchantment subtheme of the deck. I think it's worth testing, though I remain skeptical.
Demonlord Belzenlok: I like this card, but a) it's a creature in a deck that blows up creatures all the time b) this deck's curve is rather low and c) it's kind of a bad Ad Nauseam. He would be interesting as a commander, but I don't think he's worth a slot here.
Lich's Mastery: Very cool card. While our deck has quite a few ways to gain life, it has even more ways to lose life. It's also six mana for an enchantment that doesn't necessarily do anything the turn it's played and has the potential to blow yourself out. It's a build around card, and this deck isn't doing that.
Cast Down: Not hitting legendaries is a tremendous drawback in the format. Compares unfavorably with Go for the Throat and even Hero's Downfall. At least it has cool flavor text.
+ Cabal Stronghold
+ Phyrexian Scriptures
Two additions to a niche deck is about as much as you can ask for in a new set. So, what to cut?
- Volrath's Stronghold
It's... okay. It always feels nice to get back Crypt Ghast, but with only six creatures in the deck there are many times that it's just a Wastes. I feel like it's the weakest nonbasic in the deck and I think it's a mistake to cut a basic Swamp given the land that's replacing it.
- Crucible of Worlds
Originally added as Cabal Coffers protection, I've used it for that function only a handful of times. There's also the Strip Mine lock, but that strategy is underwhelming in multiplayer. I'm not running fetches, which greatly increase the power of Crucible, especially so in decks that starve for mana. Most of the time I draw it it's a dead card, and I only tutor for it when Coffers is down and I've already cast Yawgmoth's Will. It's a safe cut.
Also, Venser's Journal sucks. Praetor's Grasp is back!
EDIT: Rather than bump the thread I might as well include some of the recent changes I've made in this post.
- Ankh of Mishra
- Bloodchief Ascension
- Painful Quandary
- Phyrexian Arena
- Phyrexian Scriptures
- Polluted Bonds
- Ob Nixilis Reignited
You'll notice a trend. I took out most of the group slug effects. I had taken a brief break from EDH to play Arena and D&D, but when I returned I found myself getting dogpiled due to how annoying my group remembered them being. That's fine. I was starting to tire of them anyway and wanted a change. Ankh was too symmetrical and often contributed to my death, Ascension was increasingly difficult to turn on, and Bonds was just too slow to make much of a meaningful difference.
As for Painful Quandary, after thinking about it, I found it either useless or winmore. Popping it out early means opponents just take the life loss and either remove it or pummel me, and popping it late when I'm ahead doesn't really help me to stay on top. Similarly, the only time I saw Phyrexian Scriptures it resolved and was immediately destroyed before it could go off. It was as awkward as I thought it would be. Ob Nixilis Reignited isn't a bad card, but it's not particularly great, and I wanted to make room for some new additions. There's a good possibility he'll be back.
The most controversial drop is Phyrexian Arena. Long considered a staple for decks running black, there are just too many times where I'll topdeck it and wish it was anything else from immediate card draw to removal. It created too many feelbad moments and I think it compares poorly to something as simple as Read the Bones. Sometimes you've got to dig deep and Arena doesn't let you do that. Sure, it's great on turn three, but that doesn't happen very often.
+ Charcoal Diamond
+ Coldsteel Heart
+ Decree of Pain
+ Drain Life
+ Read the Bones
+ Shrouded Lore
+ Tainted Aether
The mana rocks are here because I'm trying to maximize the chances of landing Erebos on turn 3. While topdecking them in the late game isn't ideal, it's not the worst thing in the world either since the deck is very, very mana hungry, even with a low curve. They're not flashy, but they get the job done. Drain Life and Read the Bones likewise are back for redundancy purposes. I have nothing interesting to say about them.
Decree of Pain is a monster of a card. Ripping it off the top when you're facing lethal the next turn is such a massive change in the game state. It's no Cyclonic Rift into Amnesia, but drawing 5+ cards and wiping the board is incredible. Don't forget that it has cycling. Don't get greedy and hold onto it hoping to draw into enough mana to hardcast it. I know I sound like a broken record about versatility, but it really does make a difference.
Tainted Aether is back. It's just too good not to run. Unlike Spreading Plague which can backfire and kill your important mana doubler creatures, Tainted Aether's drawback is minimal since saccing a land only to double the rest of your remaining Swamps is a net gain. Keeping your opponents from developing their boards is very, very strong. Expect it to eat enchantment removal as early as someone draws it. That it's such a target is telling about the power level of the card.
Finally, Shrouded Lore. I'm not convinced it belongs here, but I think it's worth testing. I've had it lead to some early game blowouts by recurring Demonic Tutor to find two of my most powerful cards, but I haven't seen it at all in the mid to late game where I suspect it suffers most. However, the fact that I can politic with it to return vital spells that are useful against the person obviously in the lead makes me think it might be worthwhile.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Does anyone have any feedback on the would-be primer thus far? Or does anyone have any deck suggestions? It's pretty rude and tuned already but I'm always looking for new spice.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Have you already been in touch with any of the primer committee folks for guidance?
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Not yet. I didn't think it would be worthwhile until I had most/all of it up but maybe a cursory glance to make sure I'm on the right page would be useful.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Primer looks good to me, well thought out and organized.
I've been working on an Erebos deck since Theros went live. Here's my current iteration: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/erebos-god-of-the-dead-25-09-13-1/
I take a bit of a different course than you but the overall game plan is pretty similar - control the board and kill all the things. Maybe some of these cards I'm on could be good suggestions for other folks.
On card choices - how has Font of Agonies performed? I considered it myself but didn't think it would be good enough. My thoughts were that getting to four counters would take too long time for it to matter much.
And is Underworld Dreams really worth it? Seems really grindy, when you don't have much access to wheels. Also surprised to see Venser's Journal back - you found you need the lifegain?
If you are in need for landrecursion there's also Petrified Field. It taps for mana, so not totally a dead land if you doesn't it anyway.
Oh boy, The Abyss. Obviously, I'm jealous. And yeah, many MBC lists tend towards a particular style of play, even if the card choices to get there are a little different. How has Choice of Damnations been?
Thanks!
I haven't used Font of Agonies yet, honestly. I do play a lot of 'do nothing' enchantments so I can understand the criticism, but if that card is going to be good anywhere it's here. Turning on after only a couple of Erebos activations seems good, but it really needs to take out two or three dudes before it really becomes worthwhile.
Underworld Dreams is kind of a pet favorite, but the damage per mana investment is impressive when dropped in the early and mid game or when playing against card draw heavy decks. It's also a cheap devotion enabler for when Erebos needs to become a blocker. However, it is pretty grindy and weak in the late game. You're probably right.
I'm still not sold on it but Venser's Journal is back as a sort of silver bullet sustain card against decks that can effectively pressure my life total while still being a reasonably decent card outside of that situation. 4+ life a turn is pretty good against some decks and the unlimited hand size is good gravy. Ivory Tower might be better.
I had actually recently reconsidered Petrified Field due to the spoiler of Blast Zone. That card is an auto-include to me, so being able to recur it or a dead Coffers or something seems useful, but space is tight. 1/4 of the deck being basics seems like a good ratio since many of the deck's ramp relies on Swamps and Urborg isn't always available and I'm already having to cut the last extra Swamp for Blast Zone. Is Field better than Reliquary Tower? Tower is more consistently useful but Field is more clutch.
I'm also considering finding room for Glacial Chasm. Many decks just don't have an answer for Chasm and lose to it and tapping for mana with Urborg seems great. It definitely isn't going into a land slot so I guess it could go in for Underworld Dreams.
What else am I missing?
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Mutilate is a wrath that will take out Erebos too when your devotion is high enough ofc, but it looks like that happen pretty regularly.
There's also Doomfall that is quite versatile, but I imagine the first option is only good when your opponent have a singular creature on the board. And then it's just an overcosted Thoughtseize.
As for missing items, how do feel about Bolas's Citadel? It's kinda like Erebos on steroids. I'm definitely going to run it in my Erebos deck!
True, Mutilate can take out Erebos, but one of the trickier aspects of the deck is managing your devotion to match what's going on with the board. It can be an inconvenient topdeck when you've already enabled Erebos, but if you're sandbagging it in your hand until the opportune moment to wipe then enable Erebos, at 4cmc it's tough to beat. I'd agree that it's likely the weakest wrath in the deck, but is better than, say, Deadly Tempest or Crux of Fate. Maybe I could lose a wrath effect, though. I've added more permanents like Spreading Plague without reconsidering other removal.
Doomfall is my spicy tech. I would sometimes struggle with closing games in pods with blue-based control decks that could counter my big dumb X spells, so I added some targeted discard to shore up that weakness. While the least efficient mode is a 3cmc Thoughtseize, in my experience, by the time you're ready to go for the win you have excess mana so the mana cost is rarely relevant, and if it is, you would've lost that game regardless. Targeted discard has the potential to be weak in certain match ups, so the versatility that Doomfall brings makes its awkward casting cost acceptable. An exiling edict can be very relevant against, say, Blightsteel Colossus or Wurmcoil Engine.
I'm lukewarm on Bolas's Citadel for my deck. It's obviously a strong card, and is very cool, but I think it's more build-around than something like Ad Nauseam, which can be played "fairly." A storm deck that is going to blitz through its deck with cantrips and tutors and play several spells per turn will love it, but using it as a value card seems underwhelming. I'm still going to give it a shot, as I like it a lot.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
It might be something about that I don't play creatures and I try nok making Erebos one, so he's harder to get rid off But thinking about it I should maybe give it a shot myself. It only takes two more devotion for Erebos to come online and keep the Pestilence running. And I do run short on wincons... yeah I'm giving it a try!
It is a strong wrath for sure, and sometimes it's better to lower p/t because some things have indestructible. So I also understand your assesment about Doomfall. It looks good, just havn't testet it myself so it's nice to hear it performs well. Maybe I should also try that one.
I'm somewhat unhappy with my targeted removal suite. Malicious Affliction is coming in over Sudden Death and Font of Agonies is under scrutiny to see if I should replace it with something easier to use. Sudden Deathing Laboratory Maniac feels really, really good but it's a bit too narrow to play. Affliction is basically Doom Blade+. I dislike the color restriction since a lot of nasty targets are black, but two mana is where I like my removal to be.
Underworld Dreams is coming out again (RIP). I'm really attached to it, and it puts out a respectable amount of damage for its cost, but not affecting the board state and not applying too much pressure to life totals weakens it. Glacial Chasm, as discussed, is coming in to replace it, as is a Swamp coming out for Blast Zone. Finally, I'm cutting Wayfarer's Bauble for Phyrexian Totem. Bauble is an excellent turn one play, but on every other turn it's awkward. +1 Swamp count is nice and it enables a turn 3 Erebos, but Totem turns into a reasonable threat after a board wipe. Lowering life totals to make your X spells lethal is a solid use of your mana. Totem is also a much, much better late game topdeck.
- Underworld Dreams
- Sudden Death
- Wayfarer's Bauble
- Swamp
+ Glacial Chasm
+ Blast Zone
+ Malicious Affliction
+ Phyrexian Totem
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Choice of Damnations is something I threw in recently as a fun-of. I haven't actually cast it yet, but it seems fun.
I'm looking to move to more Pestilence effects to my list as well, now that I'm planning on using Wound Reflection and Sower of Discord type effects it seems doubly brutal.
Do you find yourself actually wanting to make him a creature? I tend to just have him sitting as an indestructible lifegain blocker and card draw enabler more than in combat. Its so nice with Theors gods to play them and have to never have to cast them again in 9/10 games. Opening him up to an exile creature effect is just something I don't do very often.
That said, I can get behind Underworld Dreams. Still have nightmares about how brutal this was in the old days.
Of course, there's nuance. If there's no white at the table I tend to be very aggressive with turning him into a creature since that's the best color by far for exiling/neutering creatures. If there's no permission, I tend to be aggressive as well since I can always easily recast him if removed with the oodles of mana I can generate should I need to. Conversely, against UWx control decks I try to walk a thin line between maintaining permanent-based disruption while keeping Erebos in play to try to bury them in card advantage. It's a tough matchup if you get into a 1v1 situation with them, but luckily there's always good ol' fashioned politicking. It's not that difficult to frame the blue player as the bad guy, even if you're the Prince of ******* Darkness.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Glad I'm not the only one who enjoys the politicking of MBC "this isn't the threat you care about - go pick on someone else while i'm silently plotting all of your deaths".
What's the opinion on Mana Web? I slotted it in before to do some preliminary testing online but then lost all my prototype lists due to mechanical failure and it must've fallen through the cracks. From what little experience I had with it, it performed okay? It's not quite stax and affects "fair" decks that were just going to cast a single big dumb spell on their turn anyway less than it does reactive control decks. Largely preventing them from advancing their board and interacting with you is an excellent bind to place them in. Whatever they choose, the game is prolonged, and your inevitability grows. At least, that's the theory, anyway. At this point my deck is pretty mean so I might as well go all in.
Phyrexian Totem has already sealed a game for me by taking out a Jace, the Mind Sculptor after a board wipe cleared out the creatures protecting him so I'm glad it's back in the list. Sometimes pet cards are also useful.
With some testing and thinking, I believe Font of Agonies is a bit too slow. Typically, it removes one or two relevant creatures at 7 or 9 mana respectively, which is pretty inefficient, even if it's spent over a few turns. It rewards you for doing what you want to do with this deck, but unfortunately takes too long to come online to be effective. I also had the miserable experience of topdecking it when virtually any other removal spell would've saved me. Oh well. It's a cool card, though.
Necromancy or Dance of the Dead are going as well. Three reanimation cards in a deck with few targets, even if they're really good, is probably too much. Two is less than three, and the name is better, but I'm not sure if Dance is the better choice since Necromancy can also be used in an emergency to find a blocker or steal a dead ETB critter at instant speed.
- Font of Agonies
- a reanimation spell
+ Mana Web
+ open slot
Any thoughts on what to use for the open slot? I have three target spot removal spells and two edicts which is probably enough already, so I want to branch out a bit. I'm somewhat hesitant to try Bolas's Citadel. Even though I really like the card I just don't see it being too good here, and I feel pretty confident in my tutor/draw package. Honestly, I might add in another life total attrition/win condition card. I feel pretty light on them at the moment as there are the occasional games where I durdle around and take longer to kill my opponents than is necessary. Drain Life? Profane Command? Polluted Bonds? Army of the Damned? There are a lot of options, ranging from excellent to cute to terrible.
I'm not typically one to care about bling (I have aesthetic preferences for cards based on art, that's about it) but I recently obtained the following from my FLGS that combines one of my favorite cards with my favorite counting tool:
My only complaint is that it doesn't have enough beads to accommodate my life total in rare situations, but I still like it quite a lot.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Even with the errata so that it hits all opponents, I think if I wanted this kind of effect I would just up my mana rock count and play Winter Orb, as the webMana Web still allows them to cast something for any amount of mana once per untap. Winter / Static Orbs and the like are far more brutal. Alternatively, you could look to using Infernal Darkness and Hex Parasite "combo" like I do to effectively shut the table off from anything but for the rest of the game. I've also tried Contamination but my build doesn't run enough token generators or similar to keep the effect going more than a turn or three.
I ran these initially as well due to our playgroup being wrath after wrath after wrath, but came upon a similar conclusion. Nowadays I run a single Reanimate for targeted, single-purpose reanimation as its too efficient not to. I do run the following spells which can act as reanimation effects but aren't necessarily single target or single purpose, however. Maybe some of these could be considerations for you.
Actually, Winter Orb is one of my biggest fears when playing this deck. I don't see it often, but someone dropping it on me when I'm tapped out and don't have Coffers available is pretty much game over for me. It's difficult to break the parity with it like, say, Teferi or decks playing a ton of rocks can. The advantage with Web is that it's always on, no investment needed, but it's less of a lock card against fair decks than it is a way to combat blue-based control decks. Web, in theory, greatly reduces the ability for reactive control decks to interact with the table which, in theory, allows us to develop our resources and find a win condition somewhat unhindered. Being weak against decks playing cards at sorcery speed is less relevant since our deck is very, very good at beating those decks.
Reanimating Crypt Ghast or Nirkana Revenant for two mana just feels so, so good, though. I've won games because of surprising my opponents with the explosive mana production the cheap reanimation spells can generate. There's also the obvious value plays of nabbing a Mulldrifter, Eternal Witness, Reclamation Sage, etc. They're worth running in my opinion, I just think three effects is too many here.
I've tried many of the cards on your list (Yawgmoth's Will is absurd!) but since I only run five creatures many of the value reanimator engines/cards aren't very efficient here. The undercosted one shot effects ultimately do more work here. I got my reanimation fix out when I played Chainer, Dementia Master.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Withering Wisps has always tempted me into running them, but now with Dead of Winter seeing print the argument is becoming more compelling. Dead of Winter isn't the best wipe, but at three mana it's incredibly efficient. Mutilate is functionally similar, and while it scales much better due to the presence of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, it still often only hits for the number of Swamps I have. That single point of mana makes a lot of difference against, say, Gaddock Teeg or token decks. As for Wisps, it's a similar story. A cheaper, conditional Pestilence. I think it's time to make the switch. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of any of the artwork for them. I guess at least the Ice Age version looks like an actual Swamp, if poorly executed. The struggle is real.
Also from Horizons is Defile. I love cheap removal and it's very difficult to get cheaper than this. It scales reasonably well and gets around indestructible/regeneration. When's the last time you saw someone regenerate a creature?
While we're talking about additions, what do we think about Dark Depths? Most of us already run Thespian's Stage so adding the other half of the combo seems plausible as an alternative win condition. The token is black, after all.
Finally, while I haven't been able to play much recently, I did manage to get in a game and threw Polluted Bonds back in to fill the open slot and man, did it perform. I went second and landed it on turn 4, so it generated quite a bit of life for me and lowered life totals enough to squeeze out a barely lethal Torment of Hailfire before facing lethal attacks after my turn. I liked it a lot.
As for cuts, well, I think it's time for Praetor's Grasp, Smallpox, Malicious Affliction, and Reliquary Tower to go. Grasp was always hit or miss and I haven't used it to preempt a combo in a long time. Smallpox feels too mean and the indiscriminate nature of it doesn't help with politics. Affliction is being traded out for other removal. And Tower, while useful with a general that draws cards, is generally superfluous. I think I'm running too many mana producing lands and Tower seems to be the weakest one.
- Praetor's Grasp
- Smallpox
- Malicious Affliction
- Reliquary Tower
+ Dead of Winter
+ Withering Wisps
+ Polluted Bonds
+ Dark Depths
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I've been running snow-covered swamps for years, mainly for Scrying Sheets and Mouth of Ronom. In earlier incarnations where I ran more Pestilence style cards, I used Withering Wisps as well.
Is Dead of Winter better than Toxic Deluge? For me, no; I run way too many non-swamp lands and Deluge is pretty much guaranteed to kill whatever I need to kill at any point of the game.